Linux Still Struggling for Desktop Acceptance

Submitted by Tudy 2005-03-12 Linux 147 Comments

Some companies surveyed recently said they have examined the prospect of moving to desktop Linux to assist in their contract negotiations with Microsoft Corp. Others are trying Linux in kiosks or for limited-function desktop systems.

About The Author

Eugenia Loli

Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.

Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli

147 Comments

2005-03-12 9:52 pm
Anonymous
That’s the problem.
Linux must have a file format that would install programs on all distros.
If a distro wants to have its own format… GOOD! It should also “accept” an universal format.
That would solve a lot of problems.
2005-03-12 9:56 pm
Anonymous
Of course It’s struggling cause Microsoft is holding them under water.
If people got work done on win 95 they can certainly get work done on a new distro. Problem is all thier training is on windows machines. Nobody wants to take a risk. M$ is the sure thing. I use Fedora as my desktop and like it just fine, but you know how long I’ve been using linux to get to a place where I’m comfortable with it.. years; who wants to start over without a great reason?
And No, linux is not just as good as windows or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. If linux was on mac OS’s level it would be the only OS and M$ would be making other devices.
2005-03-12 9:56 pm
Anonymous
“There is a lot of interest [among users] in switching to Linux,” said Stephen Harris, director of marketing at New York-based Xandros. “But are there a lot of examples of where they’ve gone out and done it? No.”
Translation
“There is alot of hype [among the l337] around switching to Linux,” said Stephen Harris, buzzword salesman at Buzz Inc. “But are there examples where this hype has equated to people actually taking the bait? No.”
2005-03-12 9:58 pm
Anonymous
Quote “Linux is a difficult choice on the desktop because good development tools are lacking, said Joe Hartman, an application development manager at HydroChem Industrial Services Inc. in Deer Park, Texas.”
Did he ever spent time peeking at Eclipse or KDevelop as professional IDE’s as well as looking deeper inside the entire GNU Toolchain as well as the GNU development tools down to VIM or EMACS ? Quantam, Umbrello, KTechnlab and other stuff to develop or generate code out of objects that one has designed ?
What more does he need ? In the past 30 years people used simple editors (and still keep using them) to create powerful applications. A good developer’s skills can’t be measured in what development tools he uses, rather than what he is able to create with what he knows.
2005-03-12 9:58 pm
Anonymous
If there’s something OSS is *not* lacking is development tools. Perhaps it’s lacking GUI encumbered development tools, that’s probably what most of these guys are looking for. But, whatever I’m not gonna get on a pissing contest about this.
In my opinion OSS is making good strides, for being such a loosely knit product, and it’s only a matter of years before it goes alot more mainstream. I’ve already heard about OSS in non technical forums such as black box voting, and the business section of the LA Times.
Business people get it, they understand that OSS will save them money.
PS: Please don’t bring up some bogus TCO study paid for by IBM/Microsoft/Appple/SUN/Linus Torvalds half cousin’s sisters brother in-law’s friend of a friend/Etcetera
2005-03-12 10:16 pm
Anonymous
One development tool is missing from Linux, but it’s a key one: Visual Basic. Too many niche/specific business applications running on Windows were written using VB. Without VB, these apps, often custom developments, can not be ported on Linux. And thus businesses stay with Windows.
More broadly, Linux struggles for Desktop Acceptance because of this: why change something that works? (yes, it works, even despite bugs, viruses and security holes all over Microsoft products). Businesses are not hobbyists, they do not want to replace something that works or can be managed to work. As for home users, Linux struggles there too for one reason: games (the lack of it). It’s same reason why people bought PCs instead of Macs.
2005-03-12 10:21 pm
Anonymous
Linux has no much RAD tools and easy languages live VB which typical ignorant and lazzy windows developers are habitued.
Linux has much more developer tools and libraries than any other platform in the planet, but people remain saying that linux isn’t ready because there are “Delphi” or “Visual Studio”.
2005-03-12 10:24 pm
Anonymous
And yes, there is an open source project for a VB compatible product. But it’s not completed yet and is not 100% compatible with VB and is not supported by a commercial organisation. So in the eyes of businesses, it’s worthless.
2005-03-12 10:27 pm
Anonymous
>>And yes, there is an open source project for a VB compatible product
Link?
2005-03-12 10:40 pm
Anonymous
Speaking as an american Not in IT.. i can say this..if im sitting at the bar and i say”linux” in a computer discussion, i get mostly blank stares, maybe an occasional “I’ve heard of that” but little more. The thing is..people could give a fat ratt’s @$$ about their day to day OS.. its about the applications. So long as they can steal music, browse porn and email the person they are infatuated with on IRC, they dont care.
OK..So maybe you are one of the 10% who actually use your computer to get work done(how novel an idea!) So if you are the standard office rat..its M$ office if you are in engineering..its a buncha cad and other proprietary or custom proggies. You are working and the box crashes..Business as usual.. windows users are used to it accept it as normal,inevitable and unavoidable. In Fact 9 out of 10 will say no biggie and yes i can hardly wait to buy the next version of windows Its ignorance and apathy at its zenith “Don’t know and don’t care” And it’s going to stay that way for a long time. Why? Because people are either too lazy or too stupid to try anything else. Even when you explain that linux is free..they just look at you in shock..no How can that BE!!! Its impossible!! How do they stay in business!!1 Go into the explaination of foss..the warm fuzziness of community..and you’ve lost 90% of the people right there.. Want to regain their attention..talk about B88bs and nascar… just my two cents
2005-03-12 10:41 pm
Anonymous
Just a guess:
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
2005-03-12 10:49 pm
Anonymous
http://www.realbasic.com
2005-03-12 10:54 pm
Anonymous
I just have to ask why the Linux people are so persistant on putting Linux on every desktop? Let people choose what works for them, not force the decision on them.
Some companies said they have examined the prospect of moving to desktop Linux to assist in their contract negotiations with Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq: MSFT)
And thats all it is for Linux on the desktop, a bargaining tool. I’d love to see Microsoft just say “Go right ahead” and see if the company really does switch or if they were full of hot air.
2005-03-12 11:00 pm
Anonymous
each has a reason.
my personal reason – is that i believe the more people migrate to Linux (or any non-MS OS) the less spam we will get.
over 90% of spam is generated by infected zombie PCs running Windows.
then there are other reasons .. but that is my main one.
2005-03-12 11:11 pm
Anonymous
This dev platform works in Windows/Linux/Apple and I believe the apps can be designed and saved for any of the OS’s.. plus can use almost any universal database type or the realbasic own database system.
http://www.realsoftware.com/
Screenshots and demo is available for DL.
You can get a demo version to try also for 15 days or so.
2005-03-12 11:19 pm
Anonymous
Right on the money.Those are the reactions I get.
Once I told a guy who asked me for a pirated copy of Ms Office to use Open Office instead since it was free and was compatible with his current office files etc.If looks could kill.
Peace
2005-03-12 11:23 pm
Anonymous
Don’t get me wrong, I love Linux, I have Arch and Yoper currently installed. Here are the reasons I think delay the adoption of desktop Linux.
Distros cons (not order of importance):
-uglier default fonts than Windows.
-have to manually edit files to get desired functionality
-have to read a lot of documentation to get desired functionality
-slower than Windows when using Mandrake, Fedora or those other big distros. Slugishness.
-bad integration of apps, specially if you are not using kde or gnome.
-ugly defaults in apps, example: the taskbar in xfce4
-Ui inconsistency
-No centraliced place where to find solutions to problems
-crypted message errors, no suggested solution to fix error or link pointing to a place where to find solution.
-unintuitive filesystem structure in most distros. (Congratulations to the guys at gobolinux).
-after you install a program you don’t know if the app is in /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/X11/bin, …etc
-you also don’t know where the app config file is.
-Recompile this or that often suggested. Out of the possibility for joe users (97% of ppl)
-Linux zealots that don’t acept that something is wrong when it is, so they delay nedded changes.
-Expecting joe user to learn about system administration.
All these are no problem to computer geeks
2005-03-12 11:26 pm
Anonymous
it is a very crap article.
basically its an attitude problem
say if i dont like Mac (for whatever personal reasons)
I will create this psychological barrier and find all sorts of complications with it – the problem is the personal approach,
the attitude.
Fear can be the same.
So naturally people dabbling with the FUD-intoxicated idea of migrating, veryscary and are already putting their “buts and ifs” into the equation.
The weakest argument by far is lack of development tool.
If you mean crap stuff like InstallShield?
Well even that got ported!
For each IDE or Development environment there is at least one better alternative in Linux (if not many more).
That may include an Eclipse Plugin.
The problem may lie that these are not well advertised, but they are definitely there.
@Dualy
yeah i’ve posted that link too.
also for Python people may consider http://www.xored.com
I’ve never test-driven it though.
I wonder if there is an online directory of the very best IDEs for Linux.
I really like how clean MonoDevelop is looking so far.
That interface should serve as a template for other languages.
I can’t stand the clutter and slowness of Visual Studio
—
On another note I thank my brave sister for allowing me to install VidaLinux on her Samsung Laptop.
But to be fair I am struggling with driver issues already
Linux WILL win the desktop war
when it starts getting sold pre-installed more.
How can you go wrong then?
Everything would work right out of the box
and shipped with Linux-friendly hardware
(dial-up modem, printer, scanner, etc)
That is what I am hoping my sister will get when she is back to collect her laptop.
2005-03-12 11:31 pm
Anonymous
I think the attitude is what is holding the entire open source world back…to be perfectly frank. Eugenia nailed it when talking about the Gnome devs, just as an example.
Capitalism is progress and just as soon as an open market attitude is adopted (caring about what end-users wish for and need) the sooner corporate and home-users will adopt open source.
The attitude that people are “lazy & stupid” is just…well…stupid. The pot is definitely calling the kettle black there. People are finicky and are accustomed to a certain level of convenience. Time is money and time is always short…your average user doesn’t have the time or the patience to dick around with some of the more pesky caveats of using some Linux distributions. We’re not all techies and programmers, do some reading on the division of labor…not everyone can simply pick up a book, learn everything they need, and run home and modify their operating system to get what they want out of it…they’ll buy a tool that “just works” (for the most part)…(i.e. Microsoft Windows and related apps, tools, etc.)
I’m a long-time Gentoo user mysql but Linspire and Xandros are great examples of how open source really *can* be marketable! The pieces exist but the open source world is still quite disparate and resistant to change…for as open as some of its followers claim to be.
Give people what they want…not what *you* want, and the success will follow because Linux-based operating systems are far superior to the competition…and the market should decide that, not the insider-ideologues in the “community”.
2005-03-12 11:32 pm
Anonymous
Yes, I know Gambas and Linux (I use it), but those lazy and ignorant programmers no !
My hope is thate those MVPs (and many VB programmers) who are protesting against the end of M$ VB begin to learn linux.
2005-03-12 11:33 pm
Anonymous
Linux is ready for some desktops and usually those are owned by big corporations and universities. Miscrosoft is afraid of that.
If your IT departement has defined an environnement for you to work with, then you won’t have problems using Linux, especially if there is helpdesk.
For SMEs, there is usually not enough computer shops that are there to give advice and provide Linux installation and maintenance. It’s much easier to play safe and install Windows and it usually gives you more work because of all the threats. You can justify your salary.
I feel that for regular user, Linux is still too painful to use. Break one thing and it’s a nightmare. Buy the wrong hardware (because a casual user doesn’t know that he has to buy a specific hardware modem) and you’re in trouble.
It’s getting better, but it’s not there yet.
Linux will have to be very good when Longhorn is launched if it wants to attract new users and make people switch from their trusty and rusty W2K.
2005-03-12 11:43 pm
Anonymous
What more does he need ? In the past 30 years people used simple editors (and still keep using them) to create powerful applications. A good developer’s skills can’t be measured in what development tools he uses, rather than what he is able to create with what he knows.
And that’s exactly the attitude that causes Linux on the desktop to fail. If you expect windows developers to start using vim and emacs, then you’re not in reality. Are you going to judge the skills of John Carmack because he prefers to use Visual Studio? I didn’t think so.
But at least you brought up Eclipse and Kdevelop which are a start.
2005-03-12 11:48 pm
Anonymous
Has anybody ever tried to implement a VB6 clone for Unix?
Hell, if you included in an IDE or maybe an eclipse plugin, you could probably make a bundle.
And no, it doesn’t matter how crappy you think VB is because developers that like it and use it just don’t care about your opinion.
2005-03-12 11:56 pm
Anonymous
They might be the greatest RAD environments ever invented, but unless they can compile VB6 code then it’s really irrelevant to these people.
I’ve never used VB6 or any VB for that matter, but VB6 is so windows centric that it just seems strange (wouldn’t the api have a lot of junk that doesn’t make sense in Unix) to have it on Unix.
Bottom line is that the vast majority of people don’t get political about software, so you can scream all you want about, but people just don’t care what your opinion is. If it’s not going to save them money then they just don’t care.
2005-03-12 11:59 pm
Anonymous
Which Desktop? Whose Desktop? Was Win 3.11 Ready for “The Desktop”?
2005-03-13 12:08 am
Anonymous
Did I miss the memo that said linux on the desktop had to be adopted overnight?
Surely its going to be a slow process. Like all other conversions in the IT world.
2005-03-13 12:11 am
Anonymous
I just have to ask why the Linux people are so persistant on putting Linux on every desktop?
Who said anything about putting Linux on every desktop? I smell a straw man…
Unlike MS, Linux enthusiasts don’t want total world domination. All we want is a bigger market share so commercial vendors get interested in porting more of their software to Linux.
Let me ask you the question in reverse (and with correct grammar): why is Microsoft so keen on having a copy of Windows on every desktop?
2005-03-13 12:18 am
Anonymous
Open source had made great strides in server and infrastructure software. Even on desktop software running on top of commercial operating systems, with Firefox and Open Office. It saves money (boat loads when considering what MS and other vendors charge for database servers, app servers, mail platforms, and even basic operating systems) and it saves time. On top of that, it’s as good or (and often better) than propriety products in terms of functionality and performance.
For servers, it is both practical, advantageous, and money-saving to run open source from the OS on up.
But as far as a desktop alternative, Windows (just the OS itself, not including Office) adds very little to the actual cost of PC, especially when considering a Dell or similar cheapo PC. So very little money is saved (even if you could buy a PC without the Windows tax). And fixing the little thigns that don’t work in this distro or that distro isn’t saving a lot of time. And with Windows, things tend to “just work” better, although a lot of that has to do with hardware vendors and their driver support.
Of course, that’d today. Linux on the desktop isn’t getting any worse, and is only getting better, but the desktop OS realm seems like it will be the toughest nut to crack.
And I don’t think the blame goes to Microsoft. Sure, they FUD all over the place, but they do that with the server realm too (and do much more of it there, since there’s more money to be made).
It’s much easier to blame others, than to acknoweldge self culpability.
2005-03-13 12:28 am
Anonymous
“it didn’t take long for yet another “Linux not ready for the desktop” article posted by Eugenia.”
Absolutely. I was going to say it if nobody else did. You think we’ll ever live to see a “Longhorn isn’t ready for the desktop” article or should we simply accept it as fact that Windows comes down directly from the Archangel Gabriel?
2005-03-13 12:42 am
Anonymous
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with you on most of the points you brought forward:
Distros cons (not order of importance):
-uglier default fonts than Windows.
In Mandrake, default fonts look as nice (or even nicer) than Windows at high resolutions. Since the current trends indicate that people are moving towards higher-resolution desktops, this particular point doesn’t seem very valid anymore.
-have to manually edit files to get desired functionality
That is increasingly rare, especially for “desktop” stuff: there are GUI interfaces to configure just about every aspect of normal desktop use.
-have to read a lot of documentation to get desired functionality
Again, for normal desktop use that isn’t true. For system administration that is true of both Linux and Windows.
-slower than Windows when using Mandrake, Fedora or those other big distros. Slugishness.
On my Athlon 900, which is by now getting to be quite obsolete when compared to current hardware, my Mandrake KDE desktop is as snappy as Win2K on similar hardware.
-bad integration of apps, specially if you are not using kde or gnome.
-Ui inconsistency
You get similar problems on Windows, with its many different toolkits. The image copy/paste function doesn’t work between all apps, but there are workarounds.
However, I doubt that this is a real factor in preventing most people from moving to Linux on the desktop.
-ugly defaults in apps, example: the taskbar in xfce4
That’s true in a couple of cases, but that really depends on how the distros package the software. I’m running Mandrake 10.2 (RC1) right now and the defaults look pretty good.
-No centraliced place where to find solutions to problems
Is this any better with Windows? I think not.
-crypted message errors, no suggested solution to fix error or link pointing to a place where to find solution.
Again, things are no better in the Windows world. In fact, I’d say that its usually easier to figure out what’s wrong with Linux error messages by copy/pasting the message in Google and doing a routine search. The amount of information found on-line is staggering.
-unintuitive filesystem structure in most distros.
How is this hampering desktop adoption? Both Gnome and KDE do their best to keep the user in his home folder. In any case, the *nix filesystem is one of the first things newcomers are confronted with, and they usually “get it” pretty quickly. Once you “get it”, its simplicity and consistency across most *nix machines make it more intuitive than the Windows counterpart. (If you’re going to speak of inconsistency, then Windows is guilty of file location inconsistency).
-after you install a program you don’t know if the app is in /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/X11/bin, …etc
Irrelevant. It’s in the PATH environment variable, so you don’t need to know where it is to use it. If you really need to know where it is, just type “whereis [program name]” in a terminal window and Linux will tell you where it is.
-you also don’t know where the app config file is.
Almost always in /etc. However, there are GUI tools for configuring most apps.
-Recompile this or that often suggested. Out of the possibility for joe users (97% of ppl)
Recompiling is only necessary if you go outside of the software available in the distro repository, i.e. for obscure, unsupported or bleeding-edge software. Joe Users won’t need such software, and so won’t ever need to recompile.
-Linux zealots that don’t acept that something is wrong when it is, so they delay nedded changes.
I know you presented yourself as a Linux user, but I have to question this assertion when you use such inflammatory terms as “Linux zealots”. In any case, it is irrelevant: Windows has its own share of zealots, and they’re every bit as vocal and annoying – and that’s never prevented anyone from using Windows. Also, consider game consoles: all consoles have their zealots (and believe me, they’re even worse than OS zealots), yet to anyone’s knowledge this has never had an impact on sales.
I really don’t but the “zealotry” argument to explain Linux’ low market share.
-Expecting joe user to learn about system administration.
No one’s expecting Joe User to become a sys admin, whether it’s on Linux or on Windows. For either of these OSes the learning curve is rather steep, so again that’s not a valid argument to explain Windows’ dominance on the desktop.
I think the three things preventing Linux from gaining on the desktop are:
1 – not enough Marketing
2 – Legacy apps for businesses, lack of games for home users
3 – Closed MS Office file formats
Of course, a history of dirty tricks and astroturfing by Microsoft doesn’t help. BeOS compared favorably to Windows in just about every category you mentioned, and yet it died out. This was mostly due to Microsoft pressuring OEMs not to offer pre-loaded BeOS machines (or risk losing their rights to resell Windows). This type of blackmail, in addition to well-orchestrated astroturfing campaigns, explain in part why Windows still dominates the desktop to such a high degree.
2005-03-13 12:44 am
Anonymous
With java, Linux has the best of breed development tools. nothing lacks in terms of IDE’s, applications or libraries. but the thing lacking is “some” linux developers mantality not to see Java as a first class citizen in linux.. my 0.2 cents.
2005-03-13 12:57 am
Anonymous
Denial by the M$ group is such a wonderful thing to observe.
2005-03-13 1:15 am
Anonymous
-uglier default fonts than Windows.
I have Arch installed as well, and the fonts are much nicer than Windows. Not as nice as OS X, though.
-have to manually edit files to get desired functionality
Yes, although something like Ubuntu solves 99% of this.
-have to read a lot of documentation to get desired functionality
Yes, although something like Ubuntu solves 99% of this.
-slower than Windows when using Mandrake, Fedora or those other big distros. Slugishness.
Yes, it’s slower when using Redhat descendants.
-bad integration of apps, specially if you are not using kde or gnome.
Yes. It’s improving.
-ugly defaults in apps, example: the taskbar in xfce4
I don’t know what you’re saying. The fonts on my machine are better than the fonts in Windows.
-Ui inconsistency
Agreed. Although many of the most popular apps in Windows (winamp, wmp, p2p apps) don’t follow the same design paradigm.
-No centraliced place where to find solutions to problems
Hmmm…I would say that Linux in a way has a more centralized problem resolution location: your distro vouches for ALL installed software on your machine.
-crypted message errors, no suggested solution to fix error or link pointing to a place where to find solution.
I’m sorry, but Windows is so much worse in this area. Error 08080088089564654, anyone?
-unintuitive filesystem structure in most distros. (Congratulations to the guys at gobolinux).
Well…I like the Posix fs over the windows one, but I see your point.
-after you install a program you don’t know if the app is in /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/X11/bin, …etc
Yep.
-you also don’t know where the app config file is.
I agree to a point. But that’s alos what I love about Linux. The configurability, I mean, not the hard-to-find-ness.
-Recompile this or that often suggested. Out of the possibility for joe users (97% of ppl)
Yeah, I don’t compile stuff much. Although I have done it for some obscure packages in arch.
-Linux zealots that don’t acept that something is wrong when it is, so they delay nedded changes.
The devlopers are a different group than the zealots, though, as are the MS zealots and their overlords.
-Expecting joe user to learn about system administration.
I believe that a Linux box, once configured, requires much less administration skills than a Windows box. With something like Ubuntu, installation is just as easy as Win as well. My brother is a computer tech and he has clients who bring their Windows machines in on a monthly basis for spyware removal, etc. He set up a musician with a Linux Ubuntu system with Rosegarden and other toys and the guy loves it. Different strokes.
Thanks for the list. Well thought-out.
2005-03-13 1:22 am
Anonymous

2005-03-13 1:28 am

Anonymous
Or maybe it’s Eugenia trying to bring attention to a problem that so many refuse to admit even exists? Has everyone become so used to defending against MS FUD that anything remotely resembling actual constructive criticism gets enourmous amounts of attention and animosity, ignoring completely that it comes from open source enthusiats honestly trying to help the situation?
“The sting of a reproach is the truth of it.” — Benjamin Franklin

2005-03-13 1:35 am

Anonymous
Easy way to persuade someone against piracy – just say, “use OpenOffice.org or I’ll report you to the BSA – I’ll take quite pleasure in doing such” 🙂

2005-03-13 1:51 am

Anonymous
All my computers and my parents computers are now Linux. The thing is, a correctly set up Linux box beats Windows any day.
My parents are really unlikely to destroy the linux boxes I set up for them and it does everything even can stream TV from the main room and record favourite TV shows.
I can update remotely with ssh.
The modern GNU/Linux desktops are really simple WIMP drag & drop systems that anyone can use.
The only problem holding back linux is the difficult in setting it up. This is a big step as most desktop system come without GNU/Linux installed.

2005-03-13 2:08 am

Anonymous
The things really holding Linux desktop adoption up are installation of software and development tools. Pre-installation is more of a minor issue. Nothing stops businesses dead more than what they perceive to be insurmountable technical problems. If they feel as if the Linux distribution world will have moved on in six months after they’ve bought into it then they won’t go for it. This is before you’ve actually got to your general run-of-the-mill inertia.
This is also holding up Linux server adoption believe it or not, as you could get so much more done and put Linux servers in a more places than it is currently.

2005-03-13 2:44 am

Anonymous
Isn’t it a little late for you to be on the computer?

2005-03-13 2:54 am

Anonymous
Microsoft doesn’t innovate. It copies what Apple does, and buys companies after they’ve put out an innovative product. Big difference.
Meanwhile, Linux was first to innovate with LiveCDs, as well as OS-on-a-flash-drive or on a hd.
Tell me, where can I get the equivalent to the Puppy Linux multi-session LiveCD with Windows or Mac OS?
What about kio slaves and kparts? Anything remotely like this in the Windows world? In Windows, can I save a file to a remote computer who only has a SSH connection, directly from the regular Save dialog (i.e. from any regular app, without the need of an additional app)?
How about easily setting up thin clients with a regular install, using boot diskettes for the thin clients so you don’t need to install anything? Can I easily do that in Windows, without the need for expensive third-party apps?

2005-03-13 3:25 am

Anonymous
You linux people don’t have someone with quality like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. You don’t have vision, you don’t inovate, you just copy, Linux = Copy of Minix = Copy of Unix. sadly is you don’t realize that, you suck.
Huh? You mean Microsoft innovates?
Let’s see, in 1980 Microsoft innovated the following…
* Microsoft licensed UNIX from Bell Labs to introduce it’s Xenix OS. What is Xenix? Basically a flavor of Unix. It was a portable operating system for 16-bit microprocessors. It was an interactive, multi-user, multi-tasking system that would run on Intel 8086, Zilog Z8000, Motorola M68000, and DEC PDP-11 series of machines.
* Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer demoed his 86 DOS to Microsoft. Microsoft’s Paul Allen contacted with Seattle Computer Tim Patterson and asked for the rights to sell DOS to an unnamed company which happened to be IBM. Apparently Microsoft paid less than $100,000 for the rights. Later, Seattle Computer Products renamed QDOS to 86-DOS and released it as version 0.3. Microsoft bought non-exclusive rights to market 86-DOS.
Shall I go on?
“Luke, I AM your operating system.” — Darth Linux

2005-03-13 3:43 am

Anonymous
> All we want is a bigger market share so commercial vendors get interested in porting more of their software to Linux.
Right, so that’s why NeroLinux was greeted by “go away, K3B is better and it’s free” and we don’t want stinking closed source software. (see article at: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=9947
You want people porting to Linux?. Stop using free versions and pony up hard cash – dump OO.org and buy StarOffice, dump FireFox and buy Opera.

2005-03-13 4:08 am

Anonymous
Jack, I think you hit the nail on the head. Good post.
p.s. I don’t think I ever thanked Eugenia, well now I am… THANK YOU to Eugenia and the rest of the OSNews staff for a great site.
“Luke, I AM your operating system.” — Darth Linux

2005-03-13 4:40 am

Anonymous
Right, so that’s why NeroLinux was greeted by “go away, K3B is better and it’s free” and we don’t want stinking closed source software. (see article at: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=9947
You want people porting to Linux?. Stop using free versions and pony up hard cash – dump OO.org and buy StarOffice, dump FireFox and buy Opera.
It’d be great to get commercial software for Linux – but the problem with the examples you listed is that they don’t bring a lot to it. The NeroLinux argument was had out in that other thread so we won’t go there…
As far as Opera goes, I don’t like it. I like Firefox better. I’m not paying for what is, to me, an inferior product.
And I fail to see a lot of benefit in paying for StarOffice – in fact I don’t think my package manager deals with it, so there’s very little chance of me using it.
Your argument is frankly pretty dumb – we’ve got perfectly good free alternatives, but we should pay money for commercial ones just because they’re commercial?
Sorry, but I have better things to do with my money. I’ll stick with free software.
If someone was to release a piece of commercial software for Linux that did something useful, I’d pay for it – UT2003/2004 and Doom3 spring to mind. But paying the same sort of money for a web browser when I’ve already got several free ones is frankly just dumb.

2005-03-13 4:53 am

Anonymous
Everytime someone comes up with problems on the Linux platforms and yells them out here, all people reply is ‘Excuse me, but Windoze also has the same problem and it is worse in Windoze’
Are we benchmarking against Windoze? And is it OK to have faults which are there in Windoze rather than better them??
Think about it.
P.S. Recently started using Linux

2005-03-13 4:53 am

Anonymous
I know IBM runs a lot of desktops on Linux, even there non IT people.
I just interviewed with Google for Linux desktop support postion

2005-03-13 5:08 am

Anonymous
I recently started a job as a PC support tech for Road Runner. It’s one thing to understand abstractly the idea of how incompetent the average PC user is, but until you actually deal with Joe Average 8-10 hours a day, well… Let’s just say that you don’t TRULY understand the depth of incompetence involved. If one can call the average Windows users a total dunderhead, then the average Mac user can be said to be hopelessly w/o a clue (“What version of OS X are you running?” “Version?… I have Panther.” “Ah, so 10.3…” “10.3? I have Panther…”).
Yet, despite this utter lack of skill, these people still manage to use their PCs for all manner of work and entertainment-related activities. Linux hasn’t prayer as a mainstream OS until it’s able to cater to these people, and do it better than MS or Apple. That’s a fact. Make it happen, and people will flock over, you can be assured.

2005-03-13 5:43 am

Anonymous
The problem is not Linux it is the way so many Linux users compare Linux to M$. They want linux to be a free windows.
-N

2005-03-13 5:47 am

Anonymous
ask and ye shall receive…
http://www.kbasic.org/

2005-03-13 6:08 am

Anonymous
Everyone is forgetting that >90% of people are herd-minded sheep. They see their companies, hospitals, doctors’ offices, and government using Windows, and they see the ubiquitous Microsoft advertising even during Sunday afternoon football games, so they use Windows. Over and over I see the same behaviors being played out. People just won’t use their own brains to try to decide things for themselves. They take at face value what is obviously untrue. And we are awash in lies and corruption, so the great majority of people follow the stampede, and Bill Gates gets richer by the year. Real change in the behaviors of most people come about only when an example is set and reinforced by the media. For exampple, just think how conditioned we have become to think of “diversity”–in the shallowest sense of skin color–as a good thing. Real diversity–diversity of opinions, political parties–is very nearly absent in our culture. So why should it be otherwise with software?

2005-03-13 6:34 am

Anonymous
It never pays to follow the masses and get taken for a ride. Microsoft makes a lot of money off of people who open their wallets. The smart people are using Linux and enjoying their savings. I have not spent money on my system for half a decade. Linux has so many development tools it’s a haven for them. Congratulations to the wise people who use Linux, and no wonder that America’s dept is so high, because people spend money like there is no tomorrow.

2005-03-13 6:34 am

Anonymous
I’m just going to quote from Havoc Pennington’s blog, which we call all agree isn’t a windows zealot.
“Your average Linux distribution has at least 50% of its effort and even code size aimed at geeks and enthusiasts. If I were making a strict desktop distribution, you’d see sendmail gone, the terminal gone, Emacs gone, compiler gone, I bet I could even get rid of /bin/bash eventually. And the product would be better for desktop users because of the resulting focus and technical flexibility.”
[ http://log.ometer.com/ ]

2005-03-13 6:37 am

Anonymous
…plus they invest in big business which just accelerates this cycle of spending. America is the big loser, and that is a tragedy.

2005-03-13 6:39 am

Anonymous
They will not take away my terminal Michelle or else I’ll personally kick Havoc Pennington’s ass.

2005-03-13 6:39 am

Anonymous
i’ll mod you up.

2005-03-13 7:00 am

Anonymous
The way to use Linux is to use it yourself, save your money, and whether or not some business finds a competitive advantage in using Linux, is not important. The only important thing is that you are not getting robbed blind. Once you are an educated computer geek, it’s a no brainer to use Linux. I can not be persuaded to use Windows because some business empties their wallet. That is not a convincing, because it does not work that way for me. I like having money, and I certainly have lots of it.

2005-03-13 7:13 am

Anonymous
Right, so that’s why NeroLinux was greeted by “go away, K3B is better and it’s free” and we don’t want stinking closed source software. (see article at:

2005-03-13 7:25 am

Anonymous
KIO Slaves => Shell Namespace extensions
KParts => ActiveX, formerly OLE Embedding.
I don’t really agree, at least not in the way that kio slaves and kparts are integrated in the KDE desktop.
Dude, Windows has had that kind of stuff for over 10 years.
Could I navigate in a zip file within the Explorer window as if it was a folder in Win95? Can I get a visual representation of file and folder sizes in an Explorer window by clicking on a button in the toolbar? (There’s two different ways in KDE: fsviewpart and the filelight kpart.)
The technologies may be somewhat related, but the true innovation is how well they’ve been integrated in KDE, and how easy they are to use.

2005-03-13 7:38 am

Anonymous
Mail and WWW are essential for me. Yesterday, I spend a few hours trying to get Thunderbird and Firefox working together on a Slackware machine (KDE environment). Yes, I read al the hint on the Mozilla page and other websites and even wrote myself a shellscript, added user preferences to TB, etc. but still it isn’t working. Now I’m back with my Windows XP computer, where TB and FF integrate with each other out of the box.

2005-03-13 7:46 am

Anonymous
Not everyone is able to find a competitive advantage through Linux because it involves work and a skilled work force. The competitive advantage is most definately there for those that are able to do the work. I’m too educated to choose Windows but there are so many more uneducated people out there, and they have no choice. That’s how I interpret the article. Well, I’m sorry for you guys, but that did not sell me over to Windows, it only strengthed my choice in Linux.

2005-03-13 7:59 am

Anonymous
I didn’t do my homework –
I assume RealBasic would have an IDE that ran on Linux.
I’ve skimmed through the site and bookmarked it a while back
Only today I was going to try a test run – and voila no IDE for Linux.
(quite sad really)
I am vaguely aware of other multiplatform IDEs
But they don’t run Basic.
* Revolution is one of them: http://www.runrev.com/
The IDE will run on Linux, Mac and Windows.
I played with it – couldn’t get into it .. because like many I see this as an “educational” software rather than a powerful RAD tool.
Prejudice no doubt – but what of B.A.S.I.C itself then?
At least Revolution has a very strong OO model enforced by the stacks/cards principle and very efficient use of “structured English” as its programming language.
For a short while they were allowing a free non-commercial copy for Suse users to download. That promotion seems gone it was being offered as part of Novell’s Cool Solution:
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/
* Kylix as I mentioned before – was a left to die by Borland.
We haven’t seen an update in almost 3 years
It is very sad because last time I’ve manage to run it (now its becoming very incompatible with modern distros) – it looked very powerful and intuitive.
http://www.borland.com/kylix
You can still download it free of charge if for non-commercial use or FOSS projects. Who knows maybe it will still run on your distro.
* EiffelStudio and ENViSioN! is something else I found disappointing/frustrating.
The series are at http://www.eiffel.com
The Eiffel language itself is my favourite, its syntax follows a “self-documenting” style among other methodologies.
Aparently there is an IDE for Linux, but I had no success in installing that.
The plug-in for Visual Studio.NET was a nightmare to work, and resulted me in reinstalling VS itself a few of times.
Maybe they fixed that, I don’t know.
But you can try the software for free and unlimited period if its for non-commercial use. About time Revolution did the same
Which will give you time to learn the language or even getting round installing it in the first place
There are a lot of things out there, other multi-platform IDEs and technologies but we aren’t aware because they are not publicized very well.
If only there was a directory listing all of these specifically, I’d be quite happy.

2005-03-13 8:00 am

Anonymous
I’m going to let these business people in on a little secret. I work for a successful company that has been in business for over 50 years. The company uses an old system, IBM hardware, terminals, etc. The software was written at least a decade ago. Even though some of the managers use modern desktops and notebooks for their own record keeping and email, the backbone of the information system is very old, it’s slow, but it’s done the job for a long time, and it still does the job, because a decade ago the software was custom designed and it was well written. There is no reason for opening up a wallet and pouring money out every year for no reason, so the company does not do that.

2005-03-13 8:16 am

Anonymous
exactly it takes but one “Charlie”
(the stereotypical cowboy IT manager)
to convince a board to have their system upgraded
I’ve seen it happening seen companies collapsing one after another.
Serves the directors well for being so fickle, naive.
Outsourcing was another thing, these sold by big Consulting Companies, that don’t care about your profits but feed off it’s slow decline.

2005-03-13 8:25 am

Anonymous
Linux is ready for the (corporate) desktop no doubt about that.As is MacOsX.But only if you would download Ubuntu and install it on all your desktops and you have enough expertise inhouse it would (financially) benefit the TOC significantly.Other option is buying some support and software from Novell or Redhat,which doesn’t make any sence when you have allready invested a lot of money and those stated options can’t realy make a difference in terms of TOC and prize.At home i realy enjoy using Linux especially with the new KDE3.4(stable and snappy) on latest Ubuntu Hoaray and/or CentOs4.0 in combination with a AMD64 CPU.Those distros are promising and very alive.

2005-03-13 8:51 am

Anonymous
Distros cons (not order of importance):
-uglier default fonts than Windows.
There are better fonts in the OSS (IE: GS fonts, BitStream). And yes BitStream is commercial company that has released fonts. Also check out RH’s fonts which have been licensed to the commercial world.
-have to manually edit files to get desired functionality
And this is different for the Windows Registry? O’Wait, the registry isn’t documented.
-have to read a lot of documentation to get desired functionality
Most distro’s have a GUI for making config’s easy. By the way, have you ever walked into a bookstore and seen the amount of books on doing something on MS: OS/App’s? Yes, I guess reading must be a bad thing.
-slower than Windows when using Mandrake, Fedora or those other big distros. Slugishness.
You mean turning on full anination and so forth. Sorry there sport XP/2000 has the same thing. How about all the default services that windows starts up.
-bad integration of apps, specially if you are not using kde or gnome.
True. But not all applications are intergrated into 2000 or XP in a seemless fashion either.
-ugly defaults in apps, example: the taskbar in xfce4
Icons? You mean you cannot change those images. What about the default theme in XP? Green start button (gag). I don’t know of anyone that uses that default. You can change them in 95/98/2000/XP even in Gnome/KDE/Xfce and so on. You point is moot.
-Ui inconsistency
Same applies to the windows universe. Some app’s do XP color them when your running 2000 and vice verca.
-No centraliced place where to find solutions to problems
man -k keyword
PS: How about the help in the drop down box, yes it exists in most apps in win/linux.
-crypted message errors, no suggested solution to fix error or link pointing to a place where to find solution.
You mean like this one: “The device, DeviceIdeIdePort1, did not respond within the timeout period. ”
Yes, the aove error occured in this w2k box *cd-rom*. Do you think your avg joe knows this. Try harder.
-unintuitive filesystem structure in most distros. (Congratulations to the guys at gobolinux).
Like Windows is intuitive. There file system has changed from 95/98/me/2000/xp and it changes more if you preform an upgrade.
-after you install a program you don’t know if the app is in /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/X11/bin, …etc
Locate keyword
-you also don’t know where the app config file is.
Have you check:
1) /etc
2) $HOME
-Recompile this or that often suggested. Out of the possibility for joe users (97% of ppl)
Yes, make the follow changes to the windows registry to have your IDE ATA 66 get recongnized as such, instead of ATA 33. And if that doesn’t work, try…. Working in the registry doing cheap hacks to get a mobo to work properly, is BS. Recompiling a kernel is cake compared to some of the registry hacks. How about removing spyware. A Kernel recomile is still easier than removing junk from a system.
-Linux zealots that don’t acept that something is wrong when it is, so they delay nedded changes.
Examples please.
-Expecting joe user to learn about system administration.
Does this refer to Windows Administration or Linux Administration. Most users on the Windows Side never learn it, period. At least the users on the *nix side learn it because its necessary in running you box. Admin/Root login in is not default in the *nix universe.
-All these are no problem to computer geeks
No geek here. Just a user who enjoys getting their daily tasks done.

2005-03-13 8:54 am

Anonymous
The above was not meant as a critique. Just backing you up, not that you need it.

2005-03-13 9:25 am

Anonymous
Nicely done. Just like to add a couple of things:
– uglier default fonts than Windows
Times New Roman being sooooo attractive…
– have to read a lot of documentation to get desired functionality
Like you don’t in Windows! All the interesting and necessary things I seem to do as soon as I install it (uninstalling MSN, installing decent themes etc) seem to require weird undocumented/3rd party hacks.
– slower than Windows when using Mandrake, Fedora or those other big distros. Slugishness.
Windows can be somewhat faster initially, sure. But it slows down markedly as time goes on, which Linux doesn’t do to the same degree.
– bad integration of apps, specially if you are not using kde or gnome.
Comparing something other than KDE or GNOME is a bit of a weird example, since those are the ones you generally use when you’re expecting integration.
-ugly defaults in apps, example: the taskbar in xfce4
All of the Luna colour themes are hideous to a varying degree; classic Windows is nastily bland. One rough taskbar doesn’t really compare…
-Ui inconsistency
Let’s compare classic Windows (which tends to pop up occasionally), XP Luna, Office XP and Office 2003. Hmmmm… I smell a certain lack of consistency!
– No centraliced place where to find solutions to problems
Nor is there in Windows. Their “Help and Support” thing is a joke, and it only covers the limited selection of utilities that come with Windows.
– unintuitive filesystem structure in most distros.
Tried finding your default outlook.pst? c:documents and settingsuserlocal settingsapplication datamicrosoftoutlook
(not to be confused with documents and settingsuserapplication data, which is obviously completely different to local settingsapplication data).
-after you install a program you don’t know if the app is in /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/X11/bin, …etc
‘which’ works better than ‘locate’ for this one…
But you don’t need to worry anyway – typing “firefox” will run Firefox. Whereas in Windows you have to know the path to the executable, which isn’t generally terribly obvious. We shall pick on FarCry as an example:
c:Program FilesUbisoftCrytekFarCry
Now if I’m looking for FarCry, “ubisoft” isn’t totally intuitive unless I remember they happened to publish it…
-you also don’t know where the app config file is.
/etc and $HOME comparing nicely with Program Files and Documents and Settings…
-Recompile this or that often suggested. Out of the possibility for joe users (97% of ppl)
Well yes. But what’s the alternative under Windows? Typically “Bad luck, you can’t do that” – since you typically don’t have source code available or a compiler handy. So if it’s a choice between a difficult solution and none at all, I know which I’d choose…
-Expecting joe user to learn about system administration.
In what way?? In Windows they need to know about Windows Update, virus scanners and firewalls. What a wonderful bunch of apps to try to explain…
Navigating something like RPMDrake is pretty comparable to Windows Update in terms of difficulty; on the bright side it’s less likely to decide by itself that you need nine-month old video drivers because Microsoft have finally gotten around to putting them in their system…
I’m not saying Linux is perfect, it has it’s flaws – but so does everything. And I’m well sick of hearing the same old criticisms dredged up again and again when in many cases they’re no longer accurate.

2005-03-13 9:32 am

Anonymous
…the big reason that Linux isn’t on the desktop – because KDE, at least, is ready – is that it doesn’t come pre-installed on the computer with all the appropriate drivers (and hopefully no more) already loaded.
That’s it, that’s all, that’s everything. If these steps were taken care of the way they are in the monopolistic Windows world, it would be a revolution in computing (why? office suites, dev tools, graphics manipulation, SQL server, web server, etc. included in every copy).
I guarantee that shortly after that day arrives, the speed and quality of software development for the *nix world will increase greatly.

2005-03-13 10:22 am

Anonymous
Flaming Eugenia for posting an article that outlines Linux’s shortfalls when it comes to widespread desktop acceptance is just plain stupid. To let mere articles about operating systems stir your emotions up is even sadder.
I think OSnews would be better off without such jerks.

2005-03-13 10:52 am

Anonymous
Linux desktop needs more time and more applications. Barriers are high due tu Microsoft’s lock-in also. I’m confident though once the ball starts really rolling there’ll be no turning back.

2005-03-13 11:50 am

Anonymous
http://www.autopackage.org
Autopackage can revolutionise the linux packaging stuff….just watch out 1.0 is around the corner(durung easter holidays…i have been following the mailing list )…..It has the capability…but i dont know whether it will

2005-03-13 12:25 pm

Anonymous
this is so called….struggle before death

2005-03-13 1:09 pm

Anonymous
People are being so negative, I can spot a dozen problems with Linux ( and I DO run it as a desktop for others ) and the ones listed are NOT on that list. Most of the problems I have is with the wild inconsistancies in configuring applications. Between that and the poor native multimedia support ( sure coping over windows .dll is fine for x86, but what about other platforms? ). Kernel development is still one of my pet peeves being difficult to keep up to date without breaking systems. The kernel needs to become more resiliant and more modular so that changes to the networking stack do not break binary compatibility with the pci/frame buffer drivers.
I as one person can manage probably a hundreds desktops with little more effort than a dozen, so I don’t see the big deal with all of this fussing and moaning. The apps in Linux are of higher and higher quality every day and the number of funcational equviliants is growing daily. Besides the flashy interface there is little real added value that MS windows brings to the table.
So I call bullshit on all of these … “whaaa whaaa Linux developers are such A-holes, there is no way it’s ready for the desktop” articles.

2005-03-13 1:26 pm

Anonymous
Autopackage can revolutionise the linux packaging stuff….just watch out 1.0 is around the corner(durung easter holidays…i have been following the mailing list )…..It has the capability…but i dont know whether it will
Unless there is serious update from distribution vendors it will always be a product of marginal influence. Besides, the availability of a package format is one thing, the quality of a package is another.
Sofar it’s nothing more than just another method of making more of a mess of your filesystems than the native distribution’s package manager already does.

2005-03-13 1:28 pm

Anonymous
Linux is ready for primetime in the corporate desktop. But the adoption does not happen overnight. But a really good migration plan based on a good BOF will help the transition much smoother. It’s possible. Our company is already halfway in actually deploying 90% of total desktops (around 70 in total).

2005-03-13 1:42 pm

Anonymous
The Linux desktop is still young and struggling to find its identity. Desktop technology is all about graphics, graphic applications and games. None of these are Linux’ strong point. Also, as compared to Windows or Macintosh, there is not enough awareness about Linux as a desktop solution targeted at home user.
Despite these drawbacks, the Linux desktop has achieved impressive feats. The de facto desktops on Linux, KDE and GNOME, provide functionality present in either Windows or Macintosh, and unbelievably for free. The user experience on KDE and GNOME continue to improve as free software developers begin to appreciate, comprehend and apply usability methods.
Microsoft and Apple have reason to worry. The Linux desktop is getting better, not worse. And even though, in reality, it is held to unreasonable standards, it is slowly reaching and surpassing them. The Linux desktop today, is where the Linux kernel was 7 years ago. It was the subject of jokes, mockery and much laughter. Today, the Linux kernel is, arguably, the most revolutionary operating system in existence.
In brief, the Linux desktop is getting there, it is only a matter of time.

2005-03-13 1:44 pm

Anonymous
Unlike MS, Linux enthusiasts don’t want total world domination. All we want is a bigger market share so commercial vendors get interested in porting more of their software to Linux.
Oh, thats rich! Thats all you might want and lots of others.. but if you just read the majority of comments from linux users they want world domination. Theres no denying that.
anyways, I’m a linux user.. so dont flame me..

2005-03-13 1:49 pm

Anonymous
Maybe Eugenia is angling for the job of Sun CEO….
Well I think she’d do a much better job quite frankly.
OSNews has gone up in my estimation, simply because Eugenia is looking at what will actually be required (and willing to say what she thinks) to get open source software on the desktop out into the world. Heaven knows, people in the community like to talk about it a lot. Unfortunately, when people come across speed-bumps they turn around and say “Oh, it’s a free software project you know?!” Well yes, but you can’t have it all ways.
Going on an stampede and continuing to bad mouth Linux or any other Free and open source software is only going to lead to you losing the little credibility that you got left.
Then please shut up and stop telling us how many installations of desktop X and application Y you have in governments and organisations around the world.
You are damaging free and open source software. It is fairly clear to see what drives you and the open source community has now seen clear evidence of how self-important and self-indulgent you can be.
I’m afraid that would be people like you. If you are actually a Gnome dev, then I’m sorry for you.
If you have an ounce of common sense left, now it is the time to apologize publicly and loudly.
However much she appeared to rant, I don’t think anyone actually understood what she wrote or saw it in the right context – Linux, Gnome, KDE whatever succeeding on the desktop. She has nothing to apologise for.

2005-03-13 2:07 pm

Anonymous
Here is why Linux is not yet widely adopted for the desktop:
I downloaded both the Windows and Linux version of OpenOffice (2.0 beta). The Win version was a single exe file which easily installed the software. The Lin version unzipped to a bunch of RPMs. Of course my Debian-based system likes debs better, so I had to run ‘alien’. Then I had to….
You get the picture?
(BTW, I donated money to Openoffice, have you?)

2005-03-13 2:20 pm

Anonymous
The argument about “Development tools” is, in my opinion, weak. The tools are there, just not the “Microsoft tools”. Our development team has finally convinced our company to get away from Visual basic. Our Development manager wanted to use Java – when coded correctly can be a good platform – but could not convince the company to use Java, so he opted for C# instead. He has a station with Mono on it to ensure that his code could be runon .NET or MONO to keep the companies application platform nuetrual. In my opinion it should be the responsibility of the development team to ensure their applications are platform nuetral. It allows migrations to other platforms, be it Windows upgrades or another OS in return allows your company to maintain its TCO while growing.
Jim

2005-03-13 2:32 pm

Anonymous
What is this site for then?
http://openoffice.debian.net/
I’m sure that while they don’t currently have the 2.0 beta that they will provide the new 2.0 once it has been released.
Cheers!
“Luke, I AM your operating system.” — Darth Linux

2005-03-13 2:45 pm

Anonymous
I got out of bed way to early this morning (5:04AM), anyway what I said in a previous post…
I’m sure that while they don’t currently have the 2.0 beta that they will provide the new 2.0 once it has been released.
Should have said…
I’m sure that while they don’t currently have the 2.0 beta in a deb package, I think that they will provide the new 2.0 once it has been released (out of beta).
“Luke, I AM your operating system.” — Darth Linux

2005-03-13 2:50 pm

Anonymous
Err…what happened to Kylix? I thought that was supposed to be Linux version of Delphi…and from what I’ve heard, it was free (free as a free bear…not free as freedom of speech.)

2005-03-13 2:56 pm

Anonymous
The article was nothing but punditry.
She attacks hobbyist developers who do the best they can when they can, while she does nothing. Hobbyist developers are not preoccupied with “marketshare domination”, they are for realistically adding to the project what they want when they can, and that is them expressing their freedom.
Pundits do nothing but stand outside of an issue, while of course doing absolutely noting and knowing nothing about the internal systems they criticize, and then have the gall to submit that their viewpoint is somehow more subjective than those who are actually taking proactive action for the project.
The fact that you don’t want to accept your freedom by adding to the project with proactive action is your problem. If you didn’t already have free speech as a right, I’m sure you’d be complaining that you’re be too lazy to even want to fight for that.
We are fighting for computer freedom here folks… get off the sidelines with your lazy punditry and get involved in contributing.
This is freedom, not a free ride.

2005-03-13 2:58 pm

Anonymous
Isn’t over at Borland? I don’t think it has been updated in a while.
http://www.borland.com/kylix/
“Luke, I AM your operating system.” — Darth Linux

2005-03-13 3:13 pm

Anonymous
Hey did you bother reading the back posts?
You haven’t?
Its ok i don’t blame you
(sometimes I dont even bother with the article let alone posts)
Anyway,
I posted the Kylix links and others.
So if you want to grab yourself a strong coffee and trawl through the back posts you may find other links of interest too.
ttfn

2005-03-13 3:13 pm

Anonymous
🙂 – Talk about summing it up in one thought.
“I’m not paying for what is, to me, an inferior product.”
I second this though an motion it approved by all open and free peoples using open-source software.

2005-03-13 3:25 pm

Anonymous
That’s the problem.
Linux must have a file format that would install programs on all distros.
If a distro wants to have its own format… GOOD! It should also “accept” an universal format.
That would solve a lot of problems.
It wouldn’t have any impact on a moderately small to large corporation.
* Software is rolled out as a group in smart corporations and the tools for any non-consumer focused distribution are already there.
* The corporation would at most have 2 official distributions (1 for desktop systems and another for servers).
* Anyone using a non-corporate-official distribution would have to fend for themselves and would be told as such…just as they would if using Windows 98 when Windows 2000 or XP are corporate standards.

2005-03-13 3:37 pm

Anonymous
Much of the time I do read the back posts, it just so happens I didn’t bother this time as I figured NyteREider would probably come back to look for a reply somewhere near his posted question.
p.s. I am taking your advice (with coffee in hand) and am trawling back through the posts now to see what other interesting posts I can find.
“Luke, I AM your operating system.” — Darth Linux

2005-03-13 3:52 pm

Anonymous
There is absolutely no shortage of development tools or environments for Linux.
eFLTK
FLTK
wxWindows
gcc
Kylix
Real Basic
SDL
DirectFB
EMACS
vi (i hate that program yes i know its great for multiple files at once.)
Hundreds of programs for JAVA development
and about 1000x others. I guess they did not go to SourceForge or Freshmeat to see just what tools are available.
Companies are resistant to change because no one wants to risk their job over it if something doesn’t go smoothly. It’s more fear of the unknown than anything else.

2005-03-13 4:02 pm

Anonymous
Kaiwai: Easy way to persuade someone against piracy – just say, “use OpenOffice.org or I’ll report you to the BSA – I’ll take quite pleasure in doing such” 🙂
No, that will cause them to just go to somewhere else. Have them figure it out;
“I’d be glad to install Microsoft Office, though first we have to get a copy. To get one, you have to either
* Buy it; it costs about $300.00 USD.
* Put in a requisition for it.
If you can’t wait for it to arrive and be installed, I’d be glad to install something right now to get you going.”
Install OpenOffice 2.0 beta (people are impatient and the beta is quite nice). Delay (if you can) getting MS Office and even when you do get it, do not crack the shrinkwrap and keep the reciepts. If you get complaints about OO not saving in Word or Excel formats, change the default settings to that OO does save in Word and/or Excel.
If they ask your opinion about OpenOffice vs. Microsoft Office, give your opinion. Keep in mind that people will focus on any negitives you mention … so keep it simple and positive;
An example of a typical person’s reaction: you say “OpenOffice is fantasitc, it’s almost perfect”, they say “Gee, I don’t want any problems. Maybe I should just wait for Microsoft Office.” Grrr….
Instead, focus just on having them use OO and ask them what they think. Address any issues they encounter. If they press for Microsoft Office, ask them what they are attempting to do. Nearly every time they are having the normal ‘how do I do it’ questions or don’t realize that OO already can do what they ask.

2005-03-13 4:07 pm

Anonymous
If you need help, the OpenOffice forums are very fast, and new-user friendly.

2005-03-13 4:17 pm

Anonymous
have pretty much hit it,when you say it’s in software installation,most home users want to get software and install it themselves and they don’t wanna go thru some apt-get commandline mumbo-jumbo or deal with library or dependancy hell to do it,either linux needs to ship with all the libraries in it or the apps need to have evverything they need to run in them,and the apps need to be in an executable package ,click on it and the wizard takes care of the rest or as in BeOS unzip and run,and for all the new easy to use featurs Linux has been coming out with no=one has fulfilled this basic need,instead you see these everything but the kitchen sink distros,and all these everything that Joe Blow developer thinks you need for a desktop system editions.And all the while they IMOO are tap dancing around the issue instead of just making it simple to use.It’s like my main use for a computer is graphics and multimedia editing and creation,so why the hell would i need a big bloated office suite like open office,and this is where these guys miss the point,home users mainly want to surf the net print some photos,play a few games,listen and burn some music,maybe type a letter ,chat,have some referance and educational stuff so the kids can do their homework,maybe make and prrint up a greeting card,balance the checkbook,and thats about it ,they have no use for 80% of the stuff in a big office suite.I see 3 different big office suites for linux ,but wheres all the graphics apps?
you pretty much have Xpaint and Gimp.I probably have a dozen different painting and photo editing apps for windoze(or mac for that matter)and a good half dozen of them for BeOS,they all do something a little different so it depends on the graphics project I’m working on as to what TO use,but there’s a chioce and They are apps I aquired on my own and installed,some commercial some free and shareware,but at least I had a choice and they were easy to install.When Linux can do that and do it easily then it will be a desktop OS,For now it remains an OS for paranoid sysadmins who want to govern all their users software choices

2005-03-13 4:18 pm

Anonymous
I agree with the first post : software installation on Linux generally sucks.
I’m a Linux user (I even switched to Linux at work, I mostly use Eclipse, Thunderbird, Firefox and OpenOffice and it runs more smoothly on Linux than on Windows imo). But why can’t I install software without trouble, why don’t I get a menu or quicklaunch icon. I want to download, install and use a program immediately. But I believe we will get there at some point

2005-03-13 4:18 pm

Anonymous
So long time, people are flaming about different wdm’s nothing will really happend. Btw frontends isn’t making a program better…think of the smb app that is a little bit fussy if you could say so. It’s really good but there is something that is a little wrong. And a frontend will not make the solution..
This article that has been published earlier here describes all I want to say with this: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9912

2005-03-13 4:22 pm

Anonymous
I am not an computer-geek. I am an engineer that is working in the automotive industry. I don´t care if I us Windows or Linux as long as it is stable. But as long as there is no port of my CAD-program for Linux I will never install Linux on my computer. That is the problem for Linux in my eyes. And the company that is developing the CAD-program I use will not port it to Linux as long as most customer run Windows as their OS. I can´t afford to change OS and run another CAD-program. Then the company I work for will go to someone else that can deliver models in the right format. There is other 3D CAD program that have Linux-version but change CAD-program is not an option for a big company as the one I work for. It is the same with Microsoft Office compared to Open Office. Companies will not change when they are used to one Office-package.
An OS is as good as the software that is running on it. I don´t care if I can´t change the fonts on the ikons for example. As I said earlier…the only thing I care about is that the OS is stable and my WindowsXP is stable.
Sorry for my english…it is not my first language.

2005-03-13 4:22 pm

Anonymous
Great post.
You gave me some excellent inisght on how to approach training as I want to break into open source solutions for non-profit organisations.I see this as very fertile ground to break open source solutions onto the desktop , server and current windows installations.
Its a hard fight and though I am a linux user, I think its better marketed niche as too many people are brainwashed and lazy to try anything new.
Peace

2005-03-13 4:33 pm

Anonymous
Man, I’ve only used warty for a few days but it may well be the one 🙂
Not a single issue so far.

2005-03-13 4:35 pm

Anonymous
As a matter of fact he says now that he will not touch Windows with a ten foot pole because “Linux is easier to use than Windows”.
While I haven’t seen that reaction, I did install Linux for a non-tech housemate of mine. He’s a bartender and mostly likes porn and internet radio. Firefox + video plugins works for the porn, and Streamtuner gets him music. So far, he has an occasional question, though he doesn’t want much else.
I’d consider him a typical user.

2005-03-13 4:44 pm

Anonymous
I think I hear from a different newb everyday on justlinux.com.
But maybe I don’t live in the real world like these business managers do; these are only end users making individual choices not big businesses.