I have been an omni-platform user, Windows, OS X and Linux user for some time now. I love different things about each platform and loathe just as much as I like about all three. The release of the Mac Mini at MacWorld really made me wonder if Apple made good move in jumping into the low range market. I decided the best way to see was to compare the Mini to my primary box, a similar system in specifications and price.The Works
How does the new Mac Mini stack up to a homemade box? I didn’t want to do the comparison to a Dell or a Gateway/eMachine bargain deal. I wanted to use a system I have built for day-to-day users who want what the Mac Mini market is hoping capture, namely internet and “digital lifestyle”(how I hate that term) markets. This is my present setup at home as well as the setup I have built for a few folks including “Mom and Pop” newbie users:
Antec Aria Case w/300 Watt power supply
Size is 7.9″ x 10.6″ x 13.2″ $119.00
Intel Celeron 2.6gHz chip, 400mHz Bus speed, 128KB L2 cache $99.00
SY-P4VGM v1.0 micro-ATX Motherboard, Socket 478 for Intel Celeron Processors (includes 4 USB 2.0 ports, 1 1394/Firewire 400 port, 10/100 Ethernet, Compact Flash/SD reader, on-board sound w/audio in, out, mic with included 8-in-1 card reader) $65
Xtasy/ATI Radeon 9200SE Video Card, 8x AGP, 128MB DDR w/VGA, DVI- I and TV/S-Video $74
PNY 256MB PC133 SDRAM DIMM 168pin Memory Module $65
Western Digital Caviar SE 80GB, 7200RPM, Internal SATA Hard Drive $75
Sony 52x32x52 Internal IDE CD-RW / 16x DVD-ROM Combo Drive $60
Mandrake Linux 10.1 Download Edition $0 or Windows XP Home Edition SP2 $150
Weight 7.5 pounds
$557 with Linux, $707 with Windows XP
Here is the new, and I admit, very cool Mac Mini:
240 Watt power supply
Size is 2” x 6.5” x 6.5”
1.42GHz PowerPC G4, 167mHz Bus speed, 512KB L2 cache
256MB PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SDRAM, expandable to up to 1GB
ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB DDR video memory AGP 4x
80GB Ultra ATA hard drive
Slot loading Combo drive at 24x16x24
Built-in 10/100BASE-T Ethernet and 56K V.92 modem
2 USB 2.0
1 Firewire 400 port
DVI or VGA video output
Included TV/S adapter
OS X 10.3 w/bundled software
Weight 2.9 pounds
$599
So, how does the new Mac mini stack up to a homemade machine? Lets take a look:
Appearance, Size and Power: Even. The Mac has the same quality construction as the iBook and appears to be rugged and pleasant to the eye and without a doubt is smaller. That said, the Antec Aria case is stylish and modern with its included blue neon front lights and mirrored black finish. The Aria also has extra power to give with a larger power supply. Advantage: For aesthetics, Mac Mini by a landslide. For power, Home Built for the larger power supply.
Processor: I have had opportunity to use both the Celeron 2.6ghz in my present machine and a 1.25ghz G4 in my girlfriend’s 12” Powerbook. While the G4 performs well, the Celeron seems snappier and, for a bargain chip, has a much better bus speed than the G4. I would like to see how the 1.42ghz chip feels with more RAM than 256MBs. It might change my mind. Advantage: Home Built
Hard Drive: Both are 7200rpm. Who knows the difference anymore? Let’s call this one even.
Removable Media: If we were strictly speaking about the combo drives, the edge goes to the home built machine. The Sony drive is faster, no doubt. We firmly have to give the advantage to the home built machine when we add in the included 8-in-1 reader that comes with the Antec Case. Advantage: Home Built
Video: 128MB vs. 32MB. AGP 8x vs. AGP 4x. Both have DVI, TV/S and VGA connections. Both are ATI branded. One is better in this case but to be fair, I could use the same card in my machine but had the better one in there for the cost comparison. Advantage: Home built unless you use Linux. Due to the lack of games for Linux, unless you want to use Cedega, a 32MB card in the Mac that can run some popular 2D titles makes it a slight, very slight winner. The 3D experience while using XP, however, makes the card in the Mac seem puny and outdated when firing up titles like Half-Life 2 and Doom 3.
Plug-in Ports and Networking: The Aria and Mac Mini are equal here on the surface only. Both have a 10/100 Ethernet card, Two USB 2.0 and one Firewire port included. The Aria has an additional two USB 2.0 ports on the 8-in-1 reader but even with the extra ports, Firewire just works better with Mac. The Mac Mini also has a 56K modem included. Advantage: Mac Mini
Software and OS: No worms or spyware to worry about on Linux or OS X. Mandrake is free and OS X comes with the Mac Mini. Both are stable, professional operating systems that look great. Clearly, though, OS X trounces Mandrake on software with titles like iLife. There are Open Source products that do video, photos and music like KdenLive, Digikam and Rhythmbox but nothing really stacks up in the Linux world to the integration and ease of use available with iLife. Add Garageband and iDVD to the mix and you have a true winner. I still have to choose OpenOffice.org over iWork for now, especially with the great improvements made to the 2.0 Beta. Maybe iWork will prove me wrong when I get a chance to use it. Now, if you add XP to this mix and have either knowledge or access to someone who has knowledge of basic computer security, you will see XP even out the OS X advantages. Advantage: Even for OS under the right conditions. Even for online use and productivity. Mac Mini for multimedia and XP for “big name” titles.
So how does it add up? The Mac Mini is a machine I might buy if it had a better video card and more/faster RAM. 256MB of RAM for OS X is just too little out of the box and 32MB of video is a real disappointment for anyone who was looking for a small form factor gamer of the PPC flavor. At least it isn’t shared video RAM. The cool factor just isn’t enough to push the purchase or make me advise the purchase to newbie users unless they were really set on Apple or had some knowledge of their product line. As a matter of fact, as much as I like the look and idea of the Mac Mini, I think its small size might scare “Mom and Pops” away from it. The Aria was a hard enough sell because the average user still equates size with power. It isn’t like selling an iPod.
Apple has probably produced a winner with this model but the winners are already in the Apple camp. I am sure Mac fans will gobble up the machine in the coming months but I don’t think the “Halo Effect” they were hoping for, namely iPod users looking to switch, will gravitate toward this offering.
Of course, only time and holes in the reality distorion field will tell.
About the author:
Brian Czarski is a omni-platform Systems Analyst at a K-12 school in Baltimore, Maryland. He is a self-professed gadget fanatic and a hack writer at eXtraheavymarcellus.com, a blog about life in Baltimore, Technology and how it all comes together.
“No need to pay for Norton, which is a hideous resource hog anyway, Ad-Aware, Spybot and AVG are free and form a comprehensive anti-malware suite between themselves.”
http://www.my-etrust.com/microsoft for $50 firewall and av software free
http://download.zonelabs.com/bin/free/1012_zl/zlsSetup_55_062_004.e…
Where do you get the free firewall for Mac OS X that blocks outgoing traffic?
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=321cd7a2-6…
http://www.download.com/Ad-Aware-SE-Personal-Edition/3000-8022_4-10…
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/mirrors/index.html
Theres the security stuff all taken care of with ZERO cost. All of the apps receive top marks in reviews. Free and you get some of the best titles on the market.
So what you are saying is that there are people buying the Mini that are not interested in running MacOSX? Thats sound dumb but OK.
“There are several perfectly capable free CD burning apps, I use one with some stupid name like Simple CD Burner XP Pro or something like that. It always takes me ten minutes to Google it cos I never remember the name, heh. Anyway, works perfectly (and besides, XP has built-in basic CD burning, too).”
XP burns cds and you can work with all the following (if you are building a machine you choose a drive that comes with Nero or Sonic):
http://www.burnatonce.com/ free
burnatonce can master data and audio discs, read/write image files and copy on the fly. It’s drag and drop interface has multi-language support and is fully compatible with XP themes.
Multisession and bootable disc mastering is supported as well as long filename support using Joliet, Long Joliet and Rockridge. Extra long filename support is provided with the ISO9660:1999 and UDF filesystems.
Audio discs can be compiled from wav, mp3, mp2, ogg and flac files as standard while support for other audio formats can be added optionally. CD-Text can be written from the built in editor, imported from freedb, read from media tags or extracted from filenames. Pauses between tracks can also be set as silence, pregap or postgap of varying lengths.
general features
Cue, toc and iso image burning
Read to toc/dat or cue/bin image
Copy on the fly
Multi-language support
Support for Windows XP themes
Drag and drop disc mastering
Supports SPTI and ASPI Interface
Supports USB and Firewire under SPTI
Supports DVD writing with optional download.
data mastering features
Multisession recording
Bootable disc recording
ISO9660:1999, UDF, and Long Joliet
Create and Verify Checksum
Supports East Asian characters (CJK)
audio mastering features
Supports wav, mp3, mp2, ogg and flac files
Supports ID3v1.1, ID3v2, Vorbis and APE Tags
CD-Text from editor, freedb, tags, or filename
Set silence, pregap or postgap between tracks
Import audio cue/toc sheets
“Where do you get the free firewall for Mac OS X that blocks outgoing traffic? ”
Since MacOSX doesn’t even need Ad-Aware, Spybot or AVG then why would we need to block outgoing traffic? You make it sound like its a plus to have an OS that needs all of that crap.
“Since MacOSX doesn’t even need Ad-Aware, Spybot or AVG then why would we need to block outgoing traffic? You make it sound like its a plus to have an OS that needs all of that crap.”
Maybe because it’s nice to know that I have full control of my machine and no software that is installed on my machine is sending data out without my permission. Do you like Adobe, Macromedia, Intuit, and dozens of other software vendors collecting data on you, your Mac, and your habits?
It’s called privacy. But please don’t answer questions with questions. Where is a free firewall for OS X that blocks outgoing traffic?
Hey I understand what you are saying but some of things that you talk about are not huge issues on the Mac side. There are few programs on the Mac side that do product activation and if you need a Firewall to monitor outgoing traffic then it is available for the Mac, is it free? Maybe not but whats wrong with paying for good software? I will buy Tiger when it comes out but on the PC side I do not know of a single PC tech that would pay for 2K or XP.
http://www.intego.com/netbarrier/home.asp
http://www.versiontracker.com/php/search.php?mode=basic&action=sear…
The inclusion of Nero 6 Ultra Edition was not primarily as a CD burning app it was a replacement for iLife, to get the photo/video/music capabilities. As you say it’s not necessary since XP itself has CD burning capabilities, although limited. It was only to give an easy all in one solution, you can probably find free replacements for photo and music. But any decent video app, something like Pinnacle Studio 9 are likely to set you back $90 or more. Even with free AV software you have to cut back $150-200 on your system, and then you is not rely that hot anymore.
“There are few programs on the Mac side that do product activation and if you need a Firewall to monitor outgoing traffic then it is available for the Mac, is it free?”
Netbarrier is $69. I can get Zone Alarm personal for free and its a better product. ZA Pro can be had for $20 if you need full control. Your link to Version Tracker shows commercial, shareware, and beta software. Freeware versions in that list are not firewalls capable of blocking outgoing traffic as far as I can see.
“Maybe not but whats wrong with paying for good software?”
Nothing is wrong with buying software. If you can afford it. If there is no choice but to buy it. But if I can get a free product that is better, I think most people would choose that. So what you are saying is that you have to pay $69 on the Mac to get some privacy but on Windows I can have that functionality for free. Add $69 to the Mac Mini cost then please…if you care about your privacy that is.
“I will buy Tiger when it comes out but on the PC side I do not know of a single PC tech that would pay for 2K or XP.”
Do you know no one but pirates then? Last time I saw some stats, Windows XP sold over 300 million copies. I bought XP and I’m a tech.
“The inclusion of Nero 6 Ultra Edition was not primarily as a CD burning app it was a replacement for iLife, to get the photo/video/music capabilities. As you say it’s not necessary since XP itself has CD burning capabilities, although limited. It was only to give an easy all in one solution, you can probably find free replacements for photo and music. But any decent video app, something like Pinnacle Studio 9 are likely to set you back $90 or more. Even with free AV software you have to cut back $150-200 on your system, and then you is not rely that hot anymore.”
XP includes Windows Movie Maker and Photostory 3. They compare with iMovie and iPhoto on many levels, but not completely. Not the new iMovie with HD, but then again there are probably less than 10k homeowners in the world that have HD video cameras.
If you want top notch photo and video editing software in a bundle you can get for as little as $80 at http://www.outpost.com/entry?site=op:mfe011405&sku=4185383
Two great Adobe products in one box . Photo and video editing software for the home
Adobe Photoshop Elements 3.0 plus Adobe Premiere Elements software combines two powerful, intuitive products in one affordable package so you can do more with your digital photos and video.
ps–add this to your cheap pc if you are after a more powerful video and photo editing option. and yeah, with this added to a $329 pc and its stock software bundle, whats ilife look like now?
ilife:
imovie
itunes
idvd
garageband
iphoto
quicktime
pc bundle:
itunes (free)
quicktime (free)
windows movie maker (free)
ms photostory 3 (free)
windows media player (free)
sony acid xpress 5 (free)
adobe photoshop elements 3.0
adobe premiere elements 1.0 (for both add $80 to inexpensive pc total)
nero or sonic dvd burning (free with near all cheap pcs or for self builder if they get a retail drive) (premiere also does dvds)
“Netbarrier is $69. I can get Zone Alarm personal for free and its a better product. ZA Pro can be had for $20 if you need full control. Your link to Version Tracker shows commercial, shareware, and beta software. Freeware versions in that list are not firewalls capable of blocking outgoing traffic as far as I can see. ”
Good enough, I don’t know of any free firewall programs for the Mac. Have you personally used NetBarrier?
“Nothing is wrong with buying software. If you can afford it. If there is no choice but to buy it. But if I can get a free product that is better, I think most people would choose that. So what you are saying is that you have to pay $69 on the Mac to get some privacy but on Windows I can have that functionality for free. Add $69 to the Mac Mini cost then please…if you care about your privacy that is. ”
If you care about privacy why are you on Windows? You have a world of hackers, spammers, viruses, malware targeting Windows and like you said you need all of those programs to keep your Windows box safe, maybe its a good thing they are free on the PC side. These are not issues in the Mac side so having to use all of these programs is actually a disadvantange when you compare the two systems. You can’t possibly say that you feel safe on a default install of XP with none of these programs compared to a default install of MacOSX.
Are you intentionally not understanding? What I was suggesting is that people pointing out that there is a hypothetical retail value of $300 attached to video and music editing software that comes with the Mini, were engaging in mental masturbation with respect to those that were pointing out that the Mini is not competitive in terms of price/performance. They, like my grandmother, probably don’t care about editing music, and so won’t be swayed by “but it comes with $300 worth of software you aren’t going to use!” as a rationale for the platform not being competitive in terms of performance for the price. They most likely want a basic, competitive, Mac platform that doesn’t need to rationalize price disparity with software they have no use for. If they did not, they wouldn’t care to begin with.
… but it did bring out the Nazi Apple Fanboys which is always fun to see.
Fred.
pc bundle:
itunes (free) also on Mac
quicktime (free) also on Mac
windows movie maker (free) I would say that iMovie HD is better but I am biased
ms photostory 3 (free) I do not expect this to be great program
windows media player (free) also on Mac but not as good as PC, add VLC for Mac which is free
sony acid xpress 5 (free) no idea what this is
adobe photoshop elements 3.0 also on Mac, the only truly excellent program on the PC in this list
adobe premiere elements 1.0 (for both add $80 to inexpensive pc total) a 1.0 vs. iMoveHD?
nero or sonic dvd burning (free with near all cheap pcs or for self builder if they get a retail drive) (premiere also does dvds) native CD burning in the Finder DVDs too no need for apps, otherwise their is Toast and Popcorn
>added to a $329 pc
And ignoring the fact that this was about comparing to a $499 shutle? With your combo it’s still an additional $179.
As for firewalling, the mac is built on a BSD core which include a firewall (ipfw), and I think you can Google how to set your level of paranoia.
“Base Shuttle L5600H is only $499.
You are forgetting a few small items:
Windows XP home edition – $99
Nero 6 Ultra Edition – $60
Symantec’s Norton Internet Security 2005 – $40
Microsoft Money/Quicken – $30
Approximate prices totaling, that’s $229+$499=$728, and that’s what I call a totally different pricerange making any point you tried to make moot.”
It’s not a barebones. Shuttle makes complete systems now.
“Uh, no… ”
Um, yes. I said “now.” You’re basing your numbers on speculation. You’re pulling astronomical numbers out of your perverbial ass. If Mac Mini reaches your numbers then they can afford to lower the prices….not before. You can’t get economy of scale from what you will sell.
anon wrote: “The point is with the Mac is that once you spec it to a decent level it is much more expensive.”
You are dead right about that. But I think it’s very clever on Steve’s part. At $499 it’s at a price point where you can get a decent webcruiser with lots o’ Mac OSX/iLife goodness. But start hitting the upgrades and the price difference between the Mac Mini and the eMac shrinks to nothing! This is totally on purpose and I would bet it was REQUIRED by Mr. Jobs before he would signoff on the product. He wouldn’t dare cut into the bottom line of the higher end iMacs and PowerMacs. It’s shrewd marketing plain and simple. He did the same thing with the iPod Mini… priced it just above the flashplayers, but just below the regular ipod. result: the new iPod mini didn’t cut into the iPod’s sales. instead it stole market share from the flashbasedmp3players. He’s trying the same thing in the sub500 PC market. Mac’s aren’t about specs, they are about look and feel and image! Like the thing or not, you watch the market: this will be OUR generation’s Commodore64. They are going to sell gobs of these things.
“With the Mac Mini you would need more layers to get components on both sides. Also anything customer costs a lot more even with less components on the boards due to volume projections. ”
Just because you use two sides doesn’t automatically mean you need more layers. It depends on how many traces you have to route. For example, I routinely have boards produced with two sides and guess what…just two layers.
“Shuttle uses standard mini-itx boards that many manufacturers produces. So the costs for shuttle acquire boards would be significantly lower than the cost of apple to produce thier boards. Becuase they have to get a factory to build a board just for them. Where as VIA, ASUS or whoever can contract thier board production to a single vendor and get cheaper rates per board than Apple. ”
Manufacturers charge based on board area and tooling density. It would be cheaper to produce Apple boards. It really doesn’t take much to adjust their assembly line to fit the product being made. Using the same form-factor board almost has no benefits in high numbers. The cost to alter tool configuration is massively less than the total cost the produce the boards.
“Since MacOSX doesn’t even need Ad-Aware, Spybot or AVG then why would we need to block outgoing traffic? You make it sound like its a plus to have an OS that needs all of that crap.”
You’re delusional if you think Mac OS X can’t get Virii, Adware, and Spybots. There’s not a single technical reason that it can’t.
It’s just not enough hackers care right now.
No it doesn’t. Shuttle custom design and build their own boards to fit the Shuttle boxes, they aren’t a standard form factor (though the very new BTX form factor is similar, and Shuttle are building a box based on it). The other common small form factors are mini-ITX, which is smaller than a Shuttle board and couldn’t accommodate the features of a Shuttle box, and microATX, which is bigger.
I am pretty sure the Shuttle board is a 4 layer board, as most PCs are. There is no chip on a standard PC board (Intel/AMD cpu, VIA, intel, nvidia chipsets) that requires more layers.
I admit I was mistaken about the XPC’s using a Micro-ATX board. The SFF form factor boards are probably a lot cheaper to produce even with more components. The cost of connectors is lesser than the price of multi-layered boards.
Reducing the area of the board by reducing slots is not the same as making a Double sided board which the Mac Mini uses.
Double sided boards with the form factor of the Mac Mini requires denser routing and 4-layers just won’tcut it. More layers is more expensive, period. Most PCB manufacturers for PC motherboards make four layer boards which is comparatively inexpersive.
“Good enough, I don’t know of any free firewall programs for the Mac. Have you personally used NetBarrier?”
Yes, I have tried Netbarrier, though it has been awhile. I own a Mac and a PC.
“If you care about privacy why are you on Windows? You have a world of hackers, spammers, viruses, malware targeting Windows and like you said you need all of those programs to keep your Windows box safe, maybe its a good thing they are free on the PC side. These are not issues in the Mac side so having to use all of these programs is actually a disadvantange when you compare the two systems. You can’t possibly say that you feel safe on a default install of XP with none of these programs compared to a default install of MacOSX.”
I care about privacy and security on both my Mac and my PC. I take all necessary precautions for both and I have not had problems with either platform. There are issues on the Mac side. Macs are hacked, Macs have root kits, Macs have software that violates your privacy…I don’t run default installs on either platform as I am reasonably well informed.
“>added to a $329 pc
And ignoring the fact that this was about comparing to a $499 shutle? With your combo it’s still an additional $179.
As for firewalling, the mac is built on a BSD core which include a firewall (ipfw), and I think you can Google how to set your level of paranoia.”
See above where we are talking about $329 PCs. Post #194
http://weeklyad.circuitcity.com/circuitcity/default.aspx?action=bro…
ipfw is a powerful firewall. But I’d love for someone to show me a free, GUI based method of controlling it to have it alert me when something is trying to go off to my network or to the internet the way a decent desktop firewall works on Windows. Anyone know how to make ipfw act like Little Snitch (a great app but not free $25 http://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/ ).
[/i]Just because you use two sides doesn’t automatically mean you need more layers. It depends on how many traces you have to route. For example, I routinely have boards produced with two sides and guess what…just two layers.
[/i]
BS. I am not talking about school projects here.
What is the pin count of the biggest part on your two sided board? Do you have anything as complex as a Radeon 9200 and a PowerPC chip on the PCB? What about an Agere northbridge? Didn’t think so.
The point is a the Mac Mini board is a lot more denser, it is smaller than a Mini-ITX board by some estimates.
The standard Radeon PCI boards are 4-Layers, unless ATI likes wasting money, they should use your PCB routing technology. LOL.
“Just because you use two sides doesn’t automatically mean you need more layers. It depends on how many traces you have to route. For example, I routinely have boards produced with two sides and guess what…just two layers.
BS. I am not talking about school projects here.
What is the pin count of the biggest part on your two sided board? Do you have anything as complex as a Radeon 9200 and a PowerPC chip on the PCB? What about an Agere northbridge? Didn’t think so.
The point is a the Mac Mini board is a lot more denser, it is smaller than a Mini-ITX board by some estimates.
The standard Radeon PCI boards are 4-Layers, unless ATI likes wasting money, they should use your PCB routing technology. LOL. ”
And how do YOU know for a fact that the Mac Mini is a lot denser? Pin count isn’t the only factor. If I layout 500 pins vertically as a bus, do I need 8 layers? And even if it was, a P478 with north and south bridge has a greater pin count.
And there’s a reason to try to use 2 layers instead of 4. It’s minimizes crosstalk. Duh. If you can layout in 2 what other people do in 4, you’re going to have a higher quality signal.
You’re making ridiculous assumptions that you don’t even know if it’s true.
BTW having active components on both side makes the manufacturing process more complicated and expensive. Soldering components on both sides, especially huge ASICs like the radeon and the north bridge are not cheap.
If you look a the Mac Mini board there aren’t that many traces on the top layers of the board, which means they must be in the inner layers. Just look at the sheer number of decoupling caps they have.
I never said having Active components on both sides automatically means more layers. Just look at the Mac Mini board it is obvious that it is very dense.
Like I said the dual sided nature of the Mac Mini board makes it more expensive than the Shuttle board. Your compontent count theory is BS BTW.
“(please don’t moderate me down for this simple question, even if u have a bad day 2day, thx)
I’m interested to run Mac Mini with Amiga OS, is this a bad question??? Come on… ”
Under emulation, but then its more likely to be AmigaOS3.9 or earlier. AmigaOS4 only runs on licienced(?) PowerPC hardware initiallied by Uboot.
And there’s a reason to try to use 2 layers instead of 4. It’s minimizes crosstalk. Duh. If you can layout in 2 what other people do in 4, you’re going to have a higher quality signal.
Bull shit again. Your two layer board would have to be without ground and power planes and would only be effective for low frequency (<10Mhz) designs. Not a very typical computer is it?
The chances of crosstalk is higher between signals on the same layer than on different layers on a typical PCB. There is a reason there are ground and power planes between signal layers.
Say you have a pair of signal layers on vertical and one horizontal, you would have ground and signal plane. That makes 4 layers. How you can route all these high frequency signals in a single layer for a complex PCB is beyond me.
I have two mini-itx boxes. The fastest is 1Ghz, but it is a stipped down crappy cpu that struggles to play high bitrate video. It needs lots of cooling and so is *far* from silent, and the onboard graphics are a joke.
The mac mini on the otherhand has a G4 cpu with 512K cache, nothing stipped down about that.
An old 400mhz imac G3 I had played fullscreen DVD’s perfectly with about %30 cpu usage… This little box will fly. Anyone who has played with a 1.5ghz powerbook will understand. And they only have 256k cache.
PPC are expensive. Look at the briq.
Apple are expensive.
The best things in life are for a fee.
We are just spoiled with el cheapo off the shelf, x86 crap costing hardly anything. The mac mini I just ordered costs nearly as much as my smp mp2800+. Is it worth it? Hell yes.
>Soldering components on both sides, especially huge ASICs like the radeon and the north bridge are not cheap.
Actually there are rarely any difference in cost for soldiering big or small packages, talking sourface mounted components. For PCB’s with components on both sides, what can give you problems are “heavy” components on the underside. Eg they are to heavy for the surface tension in the solder. Usual problem components are transformers and coils, larger capacitors and large IC(100+ pins). Any competent designer strives to place such components on one side of the board avoiding the problem. But if it is unavoidable the solution is to apply some glue, to hold the component to the PCB. This on the other hand adds to the cost.
Home Built isn’t an option for most people. When you factor in the cost of Windows and having the system built and tested the mini wins. Check out my blog:
http://macmini.blogpot.com
for my Windows mini Build Challenge.
Eg they are to heavy for the surface tension in the solder. Usual problem components are transformers and coils, larger capacitors and large IC(100+ pins). Any competent designer strives to place such components on one side of the board avoiding the problem. But if it is unavoidable the solution is to apply some glue, to hold the component to the PCB. This on the other hand adds to the cost.
I think a Radeon, PowerPC the Agere south bridge are large high mass ICs.
While soldering Double-Sided Assembly in the first step, one side of the PCB is fitted with components and soldered. Afterwards the second side of the PCB is fitted with components and soldered again. Packages with a high mass can fall off during the second reflow process. In this case, with high mass ICs like the ones on the mini, they have to be assembled with the last reflow process. Vibrations and the air draft in the reflow oven can also cause them to fall off not only mass.
But any way, I think you confirmed that having large ICs, the Mac mini Dual-side boards are more expensive to manufacture.
I was pointing out that a silly thing like a cpu socket being saved is meaning less. It is more expensive to solder the cpu on the board. There is a reason laptop motherboards are more expernsive than desktop ones.
I was set to pick up one of these until I saw the specs on the video card. Won’t having only 32MB of RAM affect the resolution you can run on this thing? I don’t care much about gaming but would be using this for video editing and minor photoshop work. I still might go with one if I can be convinced that I can run with a decent resolution while simultaneously having a good refresh rate and true color.
“BTW having active components on both side makes the manufacturing process more complicated and expensive. Soldering components on both sides, especially huge ASICs like the radeon and the north bridge are not cheap.”
What do you think reflow machines are for? It’s not hard by hand so why would you even think it would be hard automated?
“If you look a the Mac Mini board there aren’t that many traces on the top layers of the board, which means they must be in the inner layers. Just look at the sheer number of decoupling caps they have.”
So what? You need a decoupling cap. for each chip. You’re just speculating again. There’s no reason you can’t do what you want in 4.
“Like I said the dual sided nature of the Mac Mini board makes it more expensive than the Shuttle board. Your compontent count theory is BS BTW. ”
Like I said, that’s no necessarily true. SMD has been done on two sides for a long time and it sometimes reduces layout headaches. Yeah, right. So if you add more components, it will be cheaper? Heh.
“Bull shit again. Your two layer board would have to be without ground and power planes and would only be effective for low frequency (<10Mhz) designs. Not a very typical computer is it?”
So why are high frequency analog boards forced to 2 layers? What do you think Faraday cages are for? If you have 4 layers and use an entire layer for ground and an entire layer for power, you’re wasting 2 layers.
One a VLSI chip, it makes sense to do that to reduce crosstalk, on a 4 layer board, insanity.
“The chances of crosstalk is higher between signals on the same layer than on different layers on a typical PCB.”
It depends on the spacing. But typically, you’re not going to be able to make the distance between layers very big…especialling when you go 6 or 8 layers. And that’s why people do ground and power planes.
“How you can route all these high frequency signals in a single layer for a complex PCB is beyond me. ”
Well, there we have it then.
Not unless you were planning on hooking it up to a pair of Apple Cinemas, no
. You don’t need much video RAM for normal 2D operation, 32MB is more than enough for any reasonable resolution (I’m talking up to HDTV resolution, here). Modern gaming cards have more because 3D operations need it, not 2D.
Let’s do some rough math. http://www.pcb123.com/pcb123pricing.php as a prototyping service.
Mac Mini=42.25 sq inches.
Shuttle=101.32 sq inches.
So we do 6×8 for Mac Mini. That’s $51 in lots of 25.
I’ll round down and use 8×10 for 4 layer. That’s $65. So as you can see your theory that more layers automatically adds more money is absolutely wrong.
It depends on how much tooling, etc. Can you layout the Mac-mini is such a fashion that it’s massively more expensive than the Shuttle? Of course you can. But let’s give the Apple engineers more credit than that. So you can’t say for sure that it is because you simply DO NOT KNOW. But we know the Mac Mini has a lot less components for a FACT so we know it should be cheaper in respect.
So let’s summarize our argument.
1.) We know for sure that Mac-Mini uses a lot less components so we know it’s cheaper to produce in that aspect.
2.) You have no clue that producing Mac-Mini boards is more expensive. It could be, but it doesn’t have to be. Using two sides of a PCB doesn’t necessarily mean you need more layers. Using more layers doesn’t necessarily mean it will cost more compared to a bigger board.
So why are high frequency analog boards forced to 2 layers? What do you think Faraday cages are for? If you have 4 layers and use an entire layer for ground and an entire layer for power, you’re wasting 2 layers.
One a VLSI chip, it makes sense to do that to reduce crosstalk, on a 4 layer board, insanity.
It is clear from your explaination that a) you have no clue what you are talking about b) you have no real world experience.
Please get some real world experience. Most PCBs used in PCs today are at a minimum 4 layers. Every manufacturer on the planet must be insane then according to you.
Here is a primer on basic PCB stack ups and why you need a power and ground plane.
http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~plusquel/650/slides/PCB_layer_stacks.html
Here is another one
http://www.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~veycken/HJ03/slides/7_Electrical_bw…
The slide on PCB layering says this
A well manufactured PCB board for higher
frequencies consists of a ground plane, a power
plane and n pairs of signal planes
A pair of signal planes consists of one plane with
horizontal traces and one plane with vertical
traces
Outer planes are signal planes, to allow for
correction of traces by cutting them with a
knife.
Inner traces can be cut by the risky process of
blowing them like a fuse using a high current.
From your technical reasoning. I take is you are still in school. Grow up get a job and then we can talk . Till then, I am so sorry I wasted my time.
>>1.) We know for sure that Mac-Mini uses a lot less components so we know it’s cheaper to produce in that aspect.
Who said that?
Please show me one board you have designed and I will show you the contrary.
So we do 6×8 for Mac Mini. That’s $51 in lots of 25.
I’ll round down and use 8×10 for 4 layer. That’s $65. So as you can see your theory that more layers automatically adds more money is absolutely wrong.
Now I see that you can’t even do basic math.
From the website that you posted
A 8×10 2 layer board is $47.80
A 8×10 4 layer board is $65.60
A 8×10 6 layer board is $73.40
So adding more layers is more expensive. DUH.
So let’s summarize our argument.
To summarize the argument, you don’t know squat. Even your own protoyping prices are against you.
1.) We know for sure that Mac-Mini uses a lot less components so we know it’s cheaper to produce in that aspect.
Absolutely false. A couple of connectors and a cpu socket don’t cost that much. Customer manufacturing does.
2.) You have no clue that producing Mac-Mini boards is more expensive. It could be, but it doesn’t have to be. Using two sides of a PCB doesn’t necessarily mean you need more layers. Using more layers doesn’t necessarily mean it will cost more compared to a bigger board.
I think I have proved adequately that you lack the basic technical skill required to comprehend PCB desgin principles. I will agree that using both sides doesn’t automatically mean more layers, I never meant to say that it did. But looking at the Mac Mini motherboard it is possible it has more than 4 layers, given the desnity and visible traces on the top layer.
I have proven using your own sample pricing that more layers means more money.
personally i wish apple would sell a low cost apple mac in atx form factor, with more memory slots and expansion slots. i think it would be cheaper and more expandable than the mac mini. or allow cloners sell atx only apple mac comaptible form factors.
“>>1.) We know for sure that Mac-Mini uses a lot less components so we know it’s cheaper to produce in that aspect.
Who said that?
Please show me one board you have designed and I will show you the contrary.”
See “in that aspect.” Randomly put 10 components on a board. Now produce the same board without 10 components… Get it?
“So we do 6×8 for Mac Mini. That’s $51 in lots of 25.
I’ll round down and use 8×10 for 4 layer. That’s $65. So as you can see your theory that more layers automatically adds more money is absolutely wrong.
Now I see that you can’t even do basic math.
From the website that you posted
A 8×10 2 layer board is $47.80
A 8×10 4 layer board is $65.60
A 8×10 6 layer board is $73.40
So adding more layers is more expensive. DUH.
So let’s summarize our argument.
To summarize the argument, you don’t know squat. Even your own protoyping prices are against you.”
You can’t read properly and you accuse me of not knowing how to add? You took my statement out of context. The example shows that adding more layers does not necessarily add more money COMPARED to the bigger board.
I say it in black and white right after. “Using more layers doesn’t necessarily mean it will cost more compared to a bigger board.”
And just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t mean you should be an abusive ***. I’ve been more than courteous with you, but you don’t seem to have any manners today.
“Absolutely false. A couple of connectors and a cpu socket don’t cost that much. Customer manufacturing does.”
40 pin ZIF for $16 in units of 10. -> http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=1990…
Ask Eyetech why they decided to solder down their PowerPC cpus for the AmigaONE.
“But looking at the Mac Mini motherboard it is possible it has more than 4 layers, given the desnity and visible traces on the top layer.”
Possible, but you don’t know. So we’re in agreement.
“I have proven using your own sample pricing that more layers means more money. ”
You’ve proven that you don’t read carefully and that you like to go off half-cocked over a misunderstanding.
“It is clear from your explaination that a) you have no clue what you are talking about b) you have no real world experience.
Please get some real world experience. Most PCBs used in PCs today are at a minimum 4 layers. Every manufacturer on the planet must be insane then according to you.”
Sorry, but you went off half-cocked again. The 2 layer boards are my boards, not PC boards. I never said I produced PC boards.
“From your technical reasoning. I take is you are still in school. Grow up get a job and then we can talk .”
Maybe you should quit your job or go fishing. Something stressful is sure making you tense. I appreciate the links, though. You can never have too much information I say.
Btw. here’s the same example worded in a better way.
Mac Mini=42.25 sq inches.
Shuttle=101.32 sq inches.
So to produce a 6 layer board with about 42.25 sq inches, we’ll use the 6×8 inch option. This comes out to a grand total of $51.
To produce a 4 layer board with about 101.32 sq inches, we’ll round down and use the 8×10 inch option. That’s $65.
These prices are for soldermask and silk screening included.
So you can see that your theory that adding more layers on a smaller board automatically increases the cost of the smaller board over that of a larger board is false.
Of course this example is not definitive. There are other factors also. For example, if Apple ordered the Apple logo drilled into the board at 500 holes drilled per square inch…
I don’t know if anyone is interested at this point, but here’s a short, low quality video clip, taking the mini apart.
http://www.smashsworld.com/uploads/macminidl.php
And some shots of the motherboard.
http://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/
The CPU is soldered on for a very simple reason – to prevent the buyer from ever upgrading the CPU – not to save a few cents. That is why is also there is only one RAM slot, etc.
This is a classic Apple strategy to stop cannibalising their high margin products. Make a reasonably cheap entry level product non-upgradeable machine that will be totally obsolete in two years. Then you need to buy a new machine.
@xengren
Um, yes. I said “now.” You’re basing your numbers on speculation. You’re pulling astronomical numbers out of your perverbial ass. If Mac Mini reaches your numbers then they can afford to lower the prices….not before. You can’t get economy of scale from what you will sell.
No. I’m basing my numbers on a news report that someone found the factory making the Mini’s and was told that they will be manufacturing them at 100,000 units a month.
Confirming an earlier AppleInsider scoop, DigiTimes today is reporting that it is indeed Foxconn (Hon Hai) which has signed on as the contract manufacturer for Apple’s newly launched Mac mini computers.
According to the report, which cites sources close to the Taiwanese contract manufacturer, Foxconn is expected to ship at least 100,000 Mac mini computers per month to Apple, or roughly 300,000 per quarter.
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=839
I have no problem believing that Apple will sell that many in a months time.
But, let’s see…
I’m VERY sure that Shuttle units don’t sell in those quantities…
Apple has NEVER sold units based on “Cost of Goods”. Apple always bases prices on “what the market will bare.”
Apple doesn’t go for quantity, it goes for profit…
Which is why it has something like 5 Billion in cash reserves.
For all the people whining and moaning that the Mac Mini is too slow…
http://www.macintouch.com/perfpack/comparison.html
For far less money than an iMac or even an eMac costs, you get excellent performance, silent operation and the ability to drive a big beautiful monitor of your own choosing, a critical feature missing from all but the Power Mac and PowerBooks. The Mini’s one weakness is disk performance, which may make the eMac a better choice for video editing or heavy audio work, but it shouldn’t be an issue in too many applications. For general home or office use, the Mini is perfect.
The best way for Apple to bump the Mini, is to simply incorporate a faster HDD, or offer them as an option…
Probably one of the first things I’ll do with my Mini, is replace the HDD with a faster and larger unit.
The CPU socket is a VERY expensive component compared to others on the board!! Also, any non-soldered connection is less reliable than a good soldered connection. It is soldered for BOTH price and reliability. I’ve had many memory socket problems because of poor connections. Heat and oxidation also add to the problem.
Also, there is no chance that the PCB is a 4 layer. A P-75 design that I worked on was a 6 layer, and the pin count today is MUCH higher and layout is critical. I doubt that you could even make a modern PC in a 4 layer. It has to be at least a 6 or possibly even an 8. Added layers(& copper) are also used to disappate heat, as well as reduce EMC emissions.
>I think you confirmed that having large ICs, the Mac mini Dual-side boards are more expensive to manufacture.
Of course it’s more expensive to manufacture, since it involves extra work if there is need to apply glue to keep the components in place. Since I haven’t looked at the actual board, I can’t tell if this is the case or not.
But in my experience this added cost would be minimal considering the total cost of the board. The rule of thumb from my last job was manufacturing cost was less than 20%(including assambly and packing), even less for boards only products. And that’s NOT in a low cost country. In China or similar I’d guess you can get the cost down to 5-10%.
Maybe you should quit your job or go fishing. Something stressful is sure making you tense. I appreciate the links, though. You can never have too much information I say.
No I won’t quit my job, I enjoy it too much, but i will quit getting into arguments here on OSNews, after a long day at work, ecspecially on Mac related threads.
I think the signal to noise ratio is particluarly high.
Guys, I searched the whole 253 messages but still.
Did anyone look at SY-P4VGM? Like here http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=31603….
There are “couple” of things that did not fit the bill
1.Memory. On motherboard 184 pin in description 168!?
2.I did not see Firewire.
3.AGP is just 4x!
4.Does it support SATA?
“You’re delusional if you think Mac OS X can’t get Virii, Adware, and Spybots. There’s not a single technical reason that it can’t.
It’s just not enough hackers care right now.”
Sure hackers care. Their is a lot of anti-Mac sentiment in the PC world but MacOSX has inheritantly better security than Windows.
Sure there are no technical reasons why it can’t have viruses and such but all I have seen are concept viruses and Apple tends to be faster than MS is securing exploits.
Don’t fool yourself into thinking that MacOSX is not a target for hackers, its no more obscure these days than a Sun, SGI or Linux box.
I have been working with Mac, Windows and on and off Linux for years now.
The writer misses the point: On a windows machine, you have superficial ease of work, but you end seeing the maintenance of your computer as an important task: keeping an eye on the antivirus, checking for ad-ware, updating patches,defragmenting ….
To keep him free and working, half an hour a week seems normal, when you don’t suffer an attack.
A linux machine, can be nice if it is configured and set up, but it just does not work for doing new things. Everything is a problem. Finding and installing drivers or the latest Java; make your USB work flawlessly, ,… Linux is nice in a setting where somebody else installs, but for joe average, who wants to install, uninstall, play around and hates the terminal window, not yet now. Perhaps next week.
A Mac just works. I have a 5 year old IMac, and it just works. New programs install, and work. The network, just works…
This is worth at least a few hundred dollars a year.
If you have used any mac you would know that even a low end mac can out preform a windows or linux box any day. I was suprised to see that you compared Doom 3 from a windows box to the Mac Mini, because Asypr just reached the beta stage for Doom 3 on Mac’s this month. As for preformance wise I have a Mini and I have run the following games on the standard 256MB, 1.42Ghz Mini: Return to Castle Wolfstein, Myst Exile, Blood Rayne, Sim City 4, Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, Halo and more and not one of those games did not preform any different then my Power Mac Dual 1.42 Ghz G4. I loaded plenty of images on the computer and it’s snappier then my 2 Ghz Windows Box. Already with only 256 MB of memory I could open up over 10 applications, such as iPhoto, iTunes, Safari, Dreamweaver, Photoshop 7, Word, iDVD, and could run Myst Exile at the same time. This is my 6th Mac, I knew it was a low-end when I bought it, but Apple does not skimp on their machines like Dell Does. My roomate is switching to a PowerBook from a Dell Ispiron because his computer never works. Apple even offers great support. My Mini is not my primary box but I use alot, not to mention with my 20 inch it looks great. Basically you cannot go wrong with this machine. Don’t listen to the Author he’s not a true mac user.
I am a Windows User as well as a Mac user, and I find myself going to the Mac more and more. Nice apps keep coming under OS X and I find myself having to install OS updates ALL the time with Windows 2000. You spend your time fiddling with the computer and not using it to complete your task at hand. The Mac Mini is the third Mac in my house, while I have 3 or 4 PC’s lying around with just one working. My Mac’s all work and are being used. I leave my Mac’s running but the Athlon PC heats up the room to much and makes one heck of a racket. I have to shut it down when I am not using it.
The mini is silent! No comparision in real use. The one advantage I see is PC’s for games vs. Mac. Many more titles available.