A long-time Gnome user takes a week to try out SimplyMepis to see what all the hubub is about. The result is not only a favorable look at a capable Linux distro, but an examination of the state of the Desktop Environment landscape, and the areas in which KDE can tempt even a dyed-in-the-wool Gnome fan.SimplyMepis 2004.06 or: Gnome Guy goes KDE
Most of the readers here probably know from my previous reviews that I am an avid Gnome user. Thus I prefer Gnome-centric distributions like Ubuntu and Fedora. This time, however, I wanted to give KDE another try. So the first thing I had to do was choose a proper distribution. I hesitated between Novell/Suse, Mandrake and Mepis, but finally decided to settle for SimplyMepis 2004.06. This review is kind of split: it is a review of SimplyMepis 2004.06, but it is also a look at a tested and proven implementation of KDE from a Gnome-user perspective. I am fully aware that SimplyMepis 2004.06 has KDE 3.2.3, an already outdated version of the KDE desktop. I still chose this distribution, mainly because I was interested in the small hype around Mepis Linux.
Part 1 – The review:
Initially, I had planned to install SimplyMepis on my main workstation, replacing Fedora Core 3 completely and test it for around a week. However, I, err… decided to cop out and just install it on my secondary computer: this is a pure workstation (and a pretty loyal one at that), a 500MHz Pentium 3 with 256MB RAM, IDE and SCSI hard drives, some old 4MB graphics card and some more 1999-standard hardware. I did not expect to have any hardware compatibility problems, as I never had any with other Linux installations, and, as expected, everything worked right out of the box. SimplyMepis 2004.06 is a full-featured Live CD, I just put it into the CD-ROM drive and booted the computer with it. I logged in with username and password “root” started KDE with the “startx”-command and installed SimplyMepis with very few easy clicks on my primary hard drive. You’ll need basic knowledge about Linux terminology but on the whole, the installation process is very straightforward and I really like the idea of installing my operating system after I have already successfully booted it. This minimizes unexpected installation issues. I proposed such a routine in Fedora’s Bugzilla a long time ago. I really think this installation method is superior and should become standard for all modern operating systems. I hope that others will, over time, adapt a similar installation routine.
Regarding the software: SimplyMepis comes with a slew of packages (ca. 950 vs. ca. 450 on my Ubuntu system), most of which are a bit outdated. That is perfectly fine because 2004.06 is a maintenance release that targets maximum stability. The (for me) most important pieces are Kernel 2.6.7, XFree 4.3.0, KDE 3.2.3, Mozilla 1.7.2 and OpenOffice.org 1.1.2. Just as with Ubuntu, most of my install was English even though I chose German during the installation. This was not unexpected because SimplyMepis comes on a single CD. I found out that I had to install Synaptic (via apt-get of course), which is probably a shame because this program is a worthy addition to every Debian-based distribution. Then I installed the packages kde-i18n-de, openoffice.org-l10n-de, openoffice.org-hyphenation-de, and mozilla-locale-de-at. That solved the issue mostly, but there were still missing pieces: the printer configuration dialog showed up in English and there were a few English words and texts scattered all over the distribution (not a real problem for me). Then I added Juk, because I am a regular Rhythmbox user and planned to compare these two.
I have used SimplyMepis for more than a week now and I am quite pleased with it. The transition from Gnome to KDE was easier than I thought, I do not miss any specific application. SimplyMepis 2004.06 lived up to my expectations to be a “KDE Ubuntu”. Being based on Debian you never have to hunt for a specific package on the internet – if it’s not available via apt-get and Synaptic, it probably doesn’t exist. While the software is a little outdated, the system is very stable – in fact, not a single application crashed for me during the test period. Also very nice: SimplyMepis 2004.06 comes with all the delicate stuff pre-installed: Java Runtime Engine, Flash Plugin, MP3 playback, Videoplayer. There’s probably an application for every possible task included in SimplyMepis. The problem is, you sometimes have to search through the slew of packages and the complex menus for quite some time until you find the right application for the job you want to get done. SimplyMepis includes three distribution-specific tools, Mepis System Center, Mepis Installation Center and Mepis User Utilities. The latter does not have many features, but you can do two small jobs: clean userspace of logs, history and cache and align Mozilla’s fonts with KDE. The Mepis System Center is a central place where you can set some preferences that the Mepis team wants to have in one location. You can, for example, set your apt-repositories and some apt-preferences here. I didn’t quite understand the purpose of these two tools. They’re just two more tools, in a distro that already has a big KDE Control Center and every other configuration tool available because it’s Debian based. The third utility however, the Mepis Installation Center, proved to be quite good. Also, I see the need for this application as SimplyMepis has its special installation procedure – thus neither the Debian installer nor Anaconda is an option.
A small conclusion: SimplyMepis 2004.06 is an astonishingly bug-free, stable distribution. I’d recommend it to everyone who likes KDE. You get a distribution that has the power of Debian behind it, comes on one handy CD and, overall, makes a fine, polished impression. All the software included, though a little outdated already, is of top quality and will get the job done. Installation is extremely hassle-free, probably one of the main strengths of SimplyMepis 2004.06.
Part 2 – The KDE-Gnome shootout:
Here comes the delicate part of this article. I have not used KDE for more than 2 years now. I used the KDE 2.2 series back in 2002 on Suse and Mandrake but jumped ship as soon as Gnome was getting usable (probably around Red Hat 9). I have followed the Gnome development ever since version 2.0 and used it with growing satisfaction. In the meantime, I’ve read through a lot of KDE reviews, but the screenshots that I saw were quite a turn-off to me. As Gnome got simpler and more straightforward (and a lot of people are arguing that it became too simple), KDE seemed to get more messed up from version to version. On second thought, that’s not true: KDE probably improved the “messy situation” from version to version a bit but with Gnome becoming slicker at a rapid pace all the time, KDE looked worse in comparison. As if two 120 kilo people decide to lose weight and, a year later, one of them has 70 kilos and the other has 100 and everybody only seems to compliment the slim person. I would have loved to test a more recent version (read 3.3.1) of the desktop environment, but it was much easier to use what was included in SimplyMepis 2004.06. Well, let’s jump right into it and start comparing applications:
The KDE Winners
Let’s start with the KDE applications that I preferred to their Gnome counterparts. JuK is a better music management application than Rhythmbox. I have major gripes with Rhythmbox, because it lacks essential features. The most important thing for me: JuK includes a well-designed and perfectly usable tag editor. It even displays the compression setting, so whenever I find a bad quality mp3, I can rerip it now with good quality. Another welcomed feature that Rhythmbox is missing: JuK can sort my music by year (O.K., it’s not THAT important, I admit…). A minor bug: when I sort by year, JuK fails to keep the correct order of complete albums, instead sorts by song title. But that’s really a small issue. On the whole, JuK is a very nice and clearly laid-out application. In fact, JuK looks so polished, I thought I was looking at a Gnome HIG-ified application! There’s not much optical difference between these two music management applications. I just hope Rhythmbox’s next version has the features JuK has right now. Way to go, Juk-team!
Next jewel in KDE: Quanta Plus. Quanta Plus has no direct competitor because Bluefish and Screem are not official Gnome applications. On initial startup Quanta Plus looks pretty bloated and the first thing I did was close a lot of small windows and remove some – for me – unnecessary toolbars. After that, it was a pleasure to work with Quanta Plus. It is as close to being “feature complete” as a web development application can get. HTML Tidy is integrated, preview works fine, syntax highlighting is perfect. I normally work with Bluefish and Screem and they both do not feel as feature complete as Quanta Plus.
Next up we have K3B: again there’s no direct competitor in Gnome and that’s a very unpleasant blank spot in the Gnome Desktop. K3B does a decent job at burning data, creating Audio and Video-CDs/DVDs, and copying discs. I don’t really like its design but everyone who has worked with Nero and the likes before will be able to handle K3B. K3B especially helps to make KDE a “feature-complete” desktop today. As I said, I prefer Gnome, but I really have trouble recommending it to everyone because I know that you can’t even burn an Audio CD with it.
Close Race – Tie!
Next matchup: gedit vs. KWrite: both applications serve the same purpose: easy text editing. While gedit looks a little more polished, its syntax highlighting feels a little rough: it highlights words like “for” and “and” in php-files, even when they are part of the plain text. And, worse, syntax highlighting has a nasty bug when it encounters a ‘ (also in php-files). KWrite on the other hand does a better job at syntax highlighting, but fails to highlight entites (&…;) which is quite handy in gedit. Kwrite uses nicer colors, but I guess here beauty completely lies in the eye of the beholder. One more word on text editors: I compared KWrite to gedit – and not Kate or KEdit – simply because SimplyMepis opened this editor when i clicked a text-file. I believe having three different text editors is kind of redundant, but this matter has been beaten to death by other authors before me.
On to the “instant messengers” Gaim and Kopete: a clear draw for me here. One can use Kopete as a drop-in replacement for Gaim when switching from Gnome to KDE. Both applications are very simple, clearly laid out, yet mighty tools. Both are integrated in their respective desktops nicely and can connect to all the established networks.
gThumb vs. Kuickshow: another draw. I like Kuickshow, just as much as JuK. It’s a well-designed and optically pleasing application, just as its Gnome counterpart. gThumb stills looks a little more polished to me (probably because I am used to the Gnome desktop, I admit, but I tried hard to view them as objectively as possible). I don’t like that Kuickshow opens a new window when I click on a photo. But also gThumb has its weak spot: rotating pictures, a very commonly used option is not easily accessible, but a matter of four clicks (yes, I am quite picky when it comes to Gnome usability…). Altogether, as I said, a draw.
To be honest, I didn’t test the mail application KMail much. I don’t use Evolution either, I’d go for Thunderbird anyway just because I am very used to it. I played around with KMail a bit however and I was not pleased with the account setup. Every mail program I know sports an easy wizard to guide me through creating an e-mail-account, adding name/e-mail address/incoming and outgoing server and password. In KMail I had to set up account and respective servers independently. The setup process is definitely more complicated than in other mail applications.
Where Gnome shines!
Konqueror vs. Nautilus and Epiphany. It’s difficult to compare these applications. Konqueror acts as a hybrid between file manager and web browser, just like Explorer for Windows. Gnome took another route and split these two tasks between the file manager Nautilus and the browser Epiphany. I guess it’s completely impossible to compare Konqueror, the file manager and Nautilus because both handle this task completely differently (read more about this here). The browsing capabilities, however, show a small advantage for Epiphany, mainly because it uses Mozilla’s rendering engine, which has, due to the tremendous success of Firefox right now, more support. I took Konqueror on a couple of small surfing sessions and visited all my bookmarked sites. It had severe problems with two out of 28 websites, all the others displayed flawlessly. I understand that these sites are composed in old-school, bad HTML (and I would help rewrite them today). When I do web design, I never have problems with KHTML. I guess Konqueror just has to improve its routines to handle HTML in compatibility mode (a programming job that’s probably quite a pain in the ass, so to say). I hope that Apple’s cooperation will bring KHTML on par with Gecko fast.
The main advantage of Gnome over KDE is definitely the better menu structure and the rigid rules on interface design that the Gnome Human Interface Guidelines impose. KDE’s menu structure is a big mess compared to Gnome’s. Just compare the screenshots over at osdir.com between Ubuntu Warty (screenshots 26-32) and SimplyMepis 2004.04 (screenshots 52-65). The KDE team has to do something about this because it effectively worsens the usability of KDE. Take JuK or Kuickshow as positive example and throw some more bloat out of the other applications. The KDE Control Center, for example, is a nightmare. I definitely think Gnome’s way of handling things is better here: the Gnome team tries to reduce all programs to their most important tasks so you have easy access to these most important functions. All the other options can be changed too, for example, through the command line or the GConf-Editor. Many KDE applications on the other hand try to present every possible option to the user, but that doesn’t make sense to me: that just diminishes the usability convenience for all users, experts and novices alike, because it takes longer to find the few important, everyday features that are so clearly presented in Gnome applications. So, adding more features to an already “full”, if not supercharged user interface offers nothing but diminishing returns. Also, who is the targeted user audience? Experts are able to edit text-files or use the command line anyway, novices are just scared away by too many features.
Conclusion:
Let’s stop here because these are the applications that I use regularly. There are of course a lot more applications, but as I don’t use them I did not feel qualified to write about them. I intentionally left the system configuration tools out: if you’ve made it this far, you probably know that I don’t like the KDE Control Center, and the Gnome System Tools, as presented in Ubuntu Linux 4.10, are nice, but far from being complete. I also left out one program that I use all the time, the GIMP because I think that it does not have a KDE competitor. Additionally, the GIMP is also not a real Gnome application.
So what’s my final verdict? Well surprise, surprise, KDE 3.2.3 won’t win over a Gnome aficionado like me. But I was impressed by a lot of things in KDE and I think I’d be able to switch to a KDE-based distribution pretty easily if I had to. Now that I’ve seen how applications like JuK or Quanta Plus have evolved, I see Gnome’s problems more distinctly. I’ll hope that Gnome 2.10 solves some of these issues. If not, I might take a close look at KDE again.
Finally, a prediction for 2005, since it’s the end of the year and everybody around me is making predictions too: desktop environments will become even more important. We will pick our distribution of choice even more because of the flagship desktop they include. Distribution makers will be well advised to pick either KDE or Gnome and throw their entire force behind making their selected environment as polished as possible. This is probably the best way to produce a really well integrated distribution. At the end of the 2005, we will not have the “Linux Desktop”, but the “Gnome Desktop” and the “KDE Desktop”, both Linux, GNU and X powered, with a highly modified and integrated OpenOffice.org as Office Suite (and maybe Firefox as browser). Many people will choose inferior programs because they come with their desktop environment instead of a mixture of the best applications available (just the way every single Rhythmbox user effectively does right now). And I don’t think that this will be necessarily a bad development because this will hopefully boost development speed until KDE and Gnome both are full featured, nicely usable desktop environments, each with its own set of quality applications for every major task, each on par with, let’s say Mac OS X. That also means we will see less graphical applications that don’t “belong” to either desktop, thus probably even less commercial 3rd party applications. And the ones that do survive (Firefox, OpenOffice.org) will do their best to integrate with Gnome and KDE. In other words, happy times ahead, folks!
—
Christian Paratschek, 28, likes living in his Gnome cave, but eventually comes out to examine the wooden huts that the KDE Neanderthals have built recently. Then he mumbles something about UI design and goes back to sleep in his fully HIG-ified cave.
You must have a serious problem if you won’t use KMail for the sole reason it has a bar which says “HTML message” and you think it should be on the right. What a complete insult to the developers who have given their time to program the excellent feature packed into KMail. Can you not see how petty that is?
Not really. It slows down my reading spead considerably as the characters in the message sort of blends in with the message. When we read text we do not read it character by character, but rather word by word. I.e we recognize the image of each word. If that image gets distorted we read the words character by character which is considerably slower.
On second thought, the message shouldn’t be on the right. The positioning should be locale dependent. In locales that reads text from left to right As we tend to interpret the image in our preferred direction of reading until the word image is formed in our mind, and we go on read the next word to form phrases.
It is not uncommon that small flaws like this deside what program we use. This is something you need to be aware of as developer. Sometimes it doesn’t help if the application can do everything and the kitchen sink if there is something that disturbs the user.
This is why it is very important that usability bugs like this are reported, and not only technical stuff.
As for konqueror, my web-browser and file-management profiles has 8 buttons on the one horizontal toolbar (the sidebar is turned off): Back, Forward, Home, Up, Reload, Stop, Address Bar and Go/Enter. It took me about 2 minutes to do.
Two minutes may be all you get if you are trying to sell the product to a busy executive. That is wy good defaults is important.
Once you’ve configured KDE, you shouldn’t be visiting KControl that often (beginners probably won’t touch it anyway) so I don’t see why KDE is rubbish just because of this.
I strongly agree. It seams that KControl needs to be redesigned for every new major version of KDE. The usual result is that it is still too complicated. So why not leave it as it is for a while, and instead concentrate on getting more sane defaults. That would do much more for the overall usability of KDE. If we feel the need to help the user configure his system, it would probably be better to expand the functionality of the kde configuration wizard that starts on your first kde login.
Other things that could be done is to remove all KDE promotion in the program. Once running it he have allready made his choise. There is no reason for backgrounds with large KDE logos, or the KDE banner on the side of the KMenu. They fill no function, and just constitutes information noise. Why not have a more toned down default appearance. The GUI shouldn’t scream at you. If you use colors they should be used for a reason.
We also need artistic guidelines for how icons etc should be designed. But this is probably something that should be done at freedesktop.org rather than in Gnome, KDE,… If we had a common guideline all the effort put in by all the great artists out there could be used in more than one DE without looking misplaced.
> That’s why we call Konqueror OVERBLOATED.
Konqueror is just a shell for kparts which aren’t loaded if they are not being used. There are kparts for viewing pdf files, watching movies etc., but they don’t take up memory or startup time unless you’re using them. Have you actually used Konqueror? It’s very fast and starts up very quickly. KHTML is actually more lightweight than Geko. It’s the integration that makes Konqueror so great. I can use tabs, split windows etc to view HTML pages and browse files. Also, I can view and manipulate files over SSH, over Samba, over FTP etc. as if they were local from one consistant interface.
You don’t know what bloat is eh? Since you bring up firefox as an example, I bet you are one of those gnome-nuts who think every gtk-program is a GNOME program, that KDE is so full of bloat and Gnome is so lean and can’t say two sentences in a row without gibbering about the “HIG”.
Then let me (who has actullay used both environments recently) bring you some news.
* First of all firefox is *not* a gnome app. Hell you can even compile it against pure xlib (mighty unstable though), and without any gtk stuff at all in your system.
* Second: On my system KDE(3.3.2) uses less resources than Gnome with the required and almost equivalent functionality loaded (gaim, xchat, firefox and so on vs to konqueror, kopete and so on), and it gives *more* functionality, as your apps don’t really cooperate. Konqi(46636 kb viewing this page) uses *significantly* less resources than firefox (86708 kb also viewing this page) while giving more functionality because it’s totally integrated with kde, which obviously already is loaded and caters with pretty much everything. It has also *less* functionality than firefox as a pure web-browser (I miss firefox way of handling popups which is not a plugin, and I miss adblock, which is). However as a browser I must say I prefer konqi as it is smaller, faster and pages tend to look better in it – with the exception of the few that requires firefox to render properly, but they are very few. Having less functionality and using less resources does not qualify for bloat.
You, on the other hand confuse a overloaded interface with “bloat”. Blah. I suggest you read up.
And before anyone gets any ideas, this was brought to you by firefox and fvwm. 🙂
>Take a look on FireFox, they use something called pluggins
In Konqueror you have something called KParts, which is loaded only as you need them. Functionality not in use don’t use any resources (except some disk space), hence no bloat. KParts are basically an advanced form of pluggins, and its usable all over KDE not only in the browser, in the end reducing overall bloat ind the DE.
Your first comment made you look like a troll, but your followup clearly marked you as clueless.
>Do you need all the features like it that are added simply to claim
>features while weighing down the interface?
This features are plugins, on debian, you can use konqueror without all this features. In kde 3.4, this plugins can be disabled like in firefox.
>In Gaim, it’s the first option when you right click.
http://l3lx202.univ-lille3.fr/~bellegarde/kopete.png
Right click, then go to user information
But you have to click on the account icons(icq, jabber, …) :p
* First of all firefox is *not* a gnome app. Hell you can even compile it against pure xlib (mighty unstable though), and without any gtk stuff at all in your system.
And tell me? In what part of my comment did I mention GNOME? or in what part Did i say FireFox whas part of it?
And Yes, I’ve used konqueror and sadly I see how 90% of my RAM is used when I dont have nothing loaded and a have 384 RAM.
If useless libraries are not loaded? then what is all the crap loading at the start of KDE? it takes to much time.
And bloated is not only about resources, it is about looks, options, etc, and KDE simple is OVERBLOATED.
Hint: Open explorer twice and place the windows next to each other.
And make sure one does not cover the directory in the other window where I want to move my files. It’s not that I can’t manage it. It’s just that I don’t want to. I don’t get these “Konqueror has this feature _I_ don’t use > therefore its bloated > therefore its a mess > therefore I won’t use it” kinda comments.
That “fire up the app, do something, quick close it”. And when you need the app again: “fire up the app, do something, quick close it”
Now that’s interesting. And kde is bloated, right? Hint: you are always one step behind if you need to fire up another program to download a file from an ftp server. One more prog on your puter. One more item in your menu. Perhaps: one more icon on your desktop. And yet another interface for a task that should be as trivial as ripping CD’s in kde is: pop in cd, click audiocd in konqi, copy the MP3 directory from your cd to your music folder. Contrast this with: fire up grip. Select tracks. Press rip. (change default folder – can you do that?). Now browse to ~/mp3/whateveralbum. Select folder and copy it to your music folder.
Yeah, konqi is so bloated. Right. Because it has easily accessible and often-used functionality (so you won’t need another app, another interface, another item in your menu, another icon on your desktop, blah). Can you say HIG? I know you can. lol.
If you are happy using GNOME: fine. I don’t care. I still like a good debate, but I expect at least some attempt at thinking followed by actually _saying somthing_, not just the cry: ITS BLOATED everytime you see the letters K.D.E.
I still maintain that those who say that they are “unable” to use konqi because it’s too “bloated” are over-dramatizing the issue. I’m still awaiting someone pointing out with a straight face what makes konqi as a filemanager unusable… Is it the side-panel that prevents you from clicking on Documents? Or are those pesky icons (which one is unneeded btw?) at the top that makes it a “nightmare”? haha.
Yeah, konqi is so bloated. Right. Because it has easily accessible and often-used functionality (so you won’t need another app, another interface, another item in your menu, another icon on your desktop, blah). Can you say HIG? I know you can. lol.
And because users who don’t know to much about computer will call for support every 30 mins to know wehere a button is and saying “I just wanted copy a file”.
KDE doesn’t have and option for begginers, if you have to much time in your hands or nothing to do then Konqueror is right, but If you need a file browser do to common tasks like copy, paste, etc just like the other 95% of the computer users then Konqueror will just waste your time.
Luckily KDE has Krusader. Always had a thing for Norton Commander
Hmmm. I’d put it
* Norton Commander is to Midnight Commnader
* what Windows Commander is to Krusader
.. if there’s a way to get Nautilus or some other GTK app behaving like Windows Commander/Krusader then i’m interested in trying it out. When i learned about MC and WC i already lost my NC habits and love for it ..
i just use aterm + tcsh now; always fast.
By your description I’d say you are getting your impressions from too limited material.Some distros do stupid things to kde/gnome.
Just because you percieve it as slow doesn’t mean that it really is. Example:
I tried out FC2 with gnome 2.4(6?, don’t quite remember and can’t be bothered to check). Anyway it was slow as molasses running uphill. Using the logic you have catered us with, this proves gnome is totally unusable. However I’m a curious guy, so I tried the same version of gnome on my normal system (crux) and suddenly it was a *lot* faster. Don’t ask me what the fedora folks were up to, but they had done something that was less than optimal. Suddenly using the previously mentioned logic Gnome was no speed demon, but quite useable.
“Yes, I’ve used konqueror and sadly I see how 90% of my RAM is used when I dont have nothing loaded and a have 384 RAM.”
This proves nothing as you can se in the example above. I have otoh a Duron@800, 384MB ram right here running kde, and I have yet to hear any complains from the daily user about slowness..
“If useless libraries are not loaded? then what is all the crap loading at the start of KDE?”
Well, that might have to do something with the fact that konqueror isn’t the only kde program. So you will pay a price in a overhead when you start up kde, however, when you start loading more applications (compareable ones, like evolution and gaim against kmail and kopete, not mutt and micq), the on the surface less bloated approach of a windowmanager and gtkapps starts to cause *more* bloat because they don’t share components. For me that points starts somewhere around 110MB loaded stuff (kde without applications running takes something like 70MB, so how you arrived at 345MB by loading up konqi is true enigma).
So as you see, the bloat is only visual. I have given you hard numbers and examples. What do you give except the usual KDE is BLOATED whining?
[i]So as you see, the bloat is only visual.[i/]
I can deal with the waste of RAM, but no with the Visual, that’s my complaining.
“I can deal with the waste of RAM, but no with the Visual, that’s my complaining.”
May I then suggest lynx, mutt, micq, mpg123 and mrxvt? That ought to solve the problem
I whish you could tell me where the visual bloat is infront of me.. This konqureor window has the fw, bw, parent, reload, stop and security buttons + the adressbar, the tabs and the statusbar (which I wish I could hide, anyone know if that’s possible?) and that’s it. I’m sorry, I can’t see what you are complaining about. The only way I can agree with you is if you say “KDE default settings are too much”. That however, does not translate to “KDE (or konqueror) is bloated” since a few buttons too much is easy get rid of, and really doesn’t use much resources either…
And because users who don’t know to much about computer will call for support every 30 mins to know wehere a button is and saying “I just wanted copy a file”.
KDE doesn’t have and option for begginers, if you have to much time in your hands or nothing to do then Konqueror is right, but If you need a file browser do to common tasks like copy, paste, etc just like the other 95% of the computer users then Konqueror will just waste your time.
[email protected] – meet Clue. Clue, this is anonymous.
Users are not as stupid as you make them out to be. The concept of file-management (for better or worse) is basically the same across a variety of OSs and desktop environments. Taken the screenshot that I posted (many times) above: what prevents a user from utilizing the knowledge learned in Windows and use copy and paste and dragging folders/files around? 30 minutes?
As I noted in another post, my girlfriend didn’t have any problem using rox after konqi: she noticed the up button and the icons in the display window, and knew if she pressed up, she will move out of the directory, if she clicks on an icon, she moves into a directory. I told her a place she could save: /usr/home/mydir/temp/hername/ – and that’s what all she needed. Didn’t get confused by the different save file dialog of firefox (used konqi as webbrowser before), because the concept was essentially the same (there was the familiar up button, icons, etc.) and it’s the same in a variety of OSs – up usually means out of your current dir, clicking icon means going into it, etc… Once they understand the concept, they understand and can use a variety of file-managers, including Nautilus, Konqueror, Explorer, etc.
Must I spell all this out? And remember, she is the kind of person that thought OfficeXP is an OS.
but If you need a file browser do to common tasks like copy, paste, etc konqueror is a waste of time
I heard this over and over and over in this thread, and when I asked for specific details as to why, my question is always conveniently side-stepped. Repeating your claims over and over again won’t help your argument, and it only makes you look very silly. Anyway, my last try. Below is a specific screenshot of konqi without any tweaks. What prevents a user from copying, pasting, opening files there? The zoom icon? lol. ftp://hatvani.unideb.hu/pub/personal/screenshots/konqi1.png
May I then suggest lynx, mutt, micq, mpg123 and mrxvt? That ought to solve the problem
Hey, leave mrxvt alone!!! It’s one of my favorite console apps!
ftp://hatvani.unideb.hu/pub/personal/screenshots/flux_mrxvt.png
Users are not as stupid as you make them out to be.
I can tell you, they are, I’ve given support.
May I then suggest lynx, mutt, micq, mpg123 and mrxvt? That ought to solve the problem
No thx, there’s already a Desktop that gives me all I need by default.
KDE default settings are too much”. That however, does not translate to “KDE (or konqueror) is bloated” since a few buttons too much is easy get rid of, and really doesn’t use much resources either…
I don’t wann waste my timw configuring. read above:
there’s already a Desktop that gives me all I need by default.
Take the best of 2 (four) worlds. I run SimplyMepis Gnome with a mixture of Bluecurve and XFCE4 themes for the look. And I use Gnome menustructure with some KDE-apps added.
Why do I need to have a text on the left side of each mail telling me if it is, or is not a HTML mail?
You can turn it off.
So now have we gone from “KDE IS OVERBLOATED” to “there’s already a Desktop that gives me all I need by default” in a few posts. Looks like you had really strong arguments to begin with..
If you are already comfortable with xfce or whatever you use that’s fine, I for one, am not trying to convert you. I’m just telling you to quit yapping about stuff you obviously have very little experience with, especially if you can’t be bothered to spend 10 minutes to customize your working environment the first time you use it in what’s pretty much a one-time-only exercise. But remember that *you* aren’t prepaired to spend that time is *no* base for such a general statement as “KDE is OVERBLOATED!!”. It just gives the association to the “1337” crowd..
End of discussion. Have a nice <insert time of day.>
End of discussion. Have a nice <insert time of day.>
Was I even discussin with you?
The best way to do it for Konqueror or KDE in genereal could be this, instead giving a bloated Desktop by default, start with a simple desktop and if the user wans add all the bload they want, is that hard? NO, the problem is KDE deveopers don’t really care.
theres many kinds of bloat, it totally depends on the context. some people are talking about size and memory consumption, which i have alwas found far superior to gnome, but whatever. the valid one is feature bloat.
when i install gnome, i can just start using it. my perferred setup is very close to the vanilla gnome setup (the only problem i have with it is they dont use all the corners effectivly enough, other then that probably the best uses of fittes law ive seen from anyone other then apple). when i launch an app, once again i can just go. if ive never used an app before, i learn it extremely quickly, as it behaves just like every other app. when i have ten different things open in gnome, i dont get the patchwork effect that is so prevelent in linux, the land of a billion toolkits.
this comes from putting design first. think about this, amiga died, be died, but both still have vibrant communities, even though the products are downright ancient from a technology standpoint. that is because design actually does mean something to people, even if they dont realise why.
when i use kde, its completely different. i need to learn each application, cause the all behave differently. i need to spend time pruning down the various toolbars, and wading through configuration dialogue boxes. any similarity in behavior or look in kde applications comes from the toolkit, not from following the design paradigm of the environment. people say gnome is for newbs, and kde is for “power users”. this is also pretty silly, a well designed interface helps you work and doesnt get in your way. when your mind is off the interface, it is on your work. “power user” also is not a good thing, it tends to mean someone who knows very little but thinks he knows alot. (i.e. the power user will typically have a row of tightly packed 8×8 icons on his browser and consider himself “leet”, while his aunt tillie has five 16×16 in hers, and manages to hit them while the power user is “aiming”.) there are many things you just dont (and cant) realise until you do a formal usability study, and the power user will argue to the death, or until you actually pull out the stopwatch.
now, im not bashing kde, im bashing the design choices. i would use it over windows any day. also, interface is not the end all, kde is far ahead of gnome on the technology side of things, and that counts for about as much. gnome uses a c api for example. now c++ isnt exactly the way of the future anymore, but at least it was taught in schools in the last ten years. and dont get me started on glade/anjuta vs qt designer/kdevelop. not even comparable. gnome zealots will do their best to push that aside, just like kde people will try and tell you that 50 button toolbars by default is a good thing. both are completely different approaches to the same problem, and saying one is better then the other is saying apples are better then oranges. use whats better for you, and ignore (or flame) people who tell you otherwise.
>>maybe you could define what behavior of windows explorer >>or gnome natilus that you cant get in kde konqueror?
>>blanket statements like that dont help in the future
>>development of anything…
Konqueror should synchronize a folder view with the directory listing the way windoze does (after you poke around with the view options) and make this the DEFAULT setting so that newbies feel at home immediately. In fact make it look and feel like a windoze explorer with “view folders” enabled – make the present default view easily available under “settings”. Don’t get me wrong – I love konqueror and KDE but unless it gets less cluttered and more familiar for windoze-newbies it’s gonna become cult (i.e. dead for most of us). While I am on a rant I would also like to demand that creating a new tab (Ctrl-T) in filebrowser mode would clone the current folder-directory-listing view (i.e. open a new tab containing 2 such panes).
I am also happy to say I hate windoze but sad to say that my boss insists that I have to work with that shit. The usability of windows explorer went rapidly downhill after Win95 (except for the location bar).
I just checked Nautilus – here the folder synchronization works well (maybe I did something to enable this in the past, maybe I didn’t). Just to make sure that the world has not suddenly become perfect I hit Ctrl-T and see there it deleted something (symbolic links in the directory listing view) without asking so much as “are you sure you stupid jerk”. F*ck you Nautilus !!!
have fun flaming,
Richard
quote:
(i.e. the power user will typically have a row of tightly packed 8×8 icons on his browser and consider himself “leet”, while his aunt tillie has five 16×16 in hers, and manages to hit them while the power user is “aiming”.)
end of quote
um, I hate to mention it, but I would call myself a poweruser and I have 5 icons in my toolbar on konqi. I have them at size 32×32 and down the side for easier aiming. Here is what they are, I would be glad if you could point you the useless ones:
1) back: for going to the last url
2) forward: undoing a back
3) up: moving up in a tree (this is very useful for file-mangement and can be used on websites as well)
4) home: takes me to ~
5) reload: reloads the url
I also have the location bar and my bookmarks and thats it. Please point out my massive konqi bloat.
Konqi(46636 kb viewing this page) uses *significantly* less resources than firefox (86708 kb also viewing this page)
Oh really? I call bullshit. My Firefox 1.0, GTK2, with 10 extensions, custom theme, and 9 tabs open in 1 window (including this one — doh) uses 50924 kB (RSS).
FYI:
konqi and firefox open on exactly the same page, two tabs (the same in both browsers)
konqi: 42084K
firefox: 50860K
ftp://hatvani.unideb.hu/pub/personal/screenshots/konqi_firefox1.pn…
Bullshit? You tell me.. 1703 is the pid of firefox-bin
pmap -x 1703 -> total kB 84480 – – –
Perhaps I have some stuff you don’t? This is also firefox 1.0, with the java and flashplugins.
It is kind of pointless to compare how much RAM is being consumed on one system to the other; considering how greatly each setup could possibly vary.
The author mentioned the fact that Konqueror is more complex than Nautilis and Epiphany. So it is hard to compare. Which I agree. But did not mention some of the cooler things that Konq does with its extra complexity.
It is very easy to split the main Konq window, into different many frames. This is handy for things like loading two pages side by side for comparison, or simple drag and drop across multiple machines. Using the I/O Slaves I will often split a Konq screen into four or six windows. Use sftp:// to connect to machines in several differnet physical locations and simply drag and drop a few updated files. Yes I know rsync could do the same, but w/ Konq I have all the locations bookmarked, and I feel better because I can “see” what is going on.
You can bring up an embedded terminal console for quick command line operations while in filemanager mode. This is handy on local machine for quick operations.
I really do not use it for a browser that much, mainly because I really like firefox, but as a file manager, Konq, simply has not peer.
Also the comparison of gedit probably should have been made to Kate. Kate is the “advanced” editor.
The other advantage that Kate and most all KDE apps provides in the seemless integration of the I/O slaves into the file dialog. It is as easy to open up and edit files on remote servers as it is local files. using either fish:// or sftp:// in the file dialog.
The remote files work in Quanta, in fact you can manage an entire development project remotely. This is handy to me because now all the websites can be managed on the servers, no more worry about keeping them up to date.
pmap -x 1703 -> total kB 84480 – – –
Uhm… we’re discussing different things here. You discuss the total memory used while that includes shared libraries. You do that on a system which runs KDE hence which uses KDE and QT libs already. My system, in contrast, runs GNOME and hence already uses GNOME and GTK2 libs even when i don’t have Firefox running.
This is why i only check the RSS (or RES). This is the memory which is in use by Firefox which would otherwise, when Firefox would not be in use, be freed. We’d use that memory anyway in our DE’s, so its not a burden on our systems (its different on e.g. Fluxbox; see the screenshot from csabimano). If you do the same on your KDE system then we’re ~ on par. The only thing we don’t benchmark then, is which is more bloated (or so or similar): KDE, GNOME, QT, GTK *themself*. Although these weren’t the subject either afaik.
What you state (quote from man top) is this: [i]The total amount of virtual memory used by the task. It includes all code, data and shared libraries plus pages that have been swapped out.
Oh and i have all the plugins including Java 1.5, Flash 7.0.xx, and many more. That’s not the difference. The difference is what i state here above, and luzerlinux has a point. One way to cheat would be, to already load the other libraries Firefox or Konqueror uses, making them appear to be ‘shared memory’ whereas they’re normally not. I can give you my word thats not the case on my system since i normally run a minimal GNOME with near to nothing (GNOME or GTK related) open except with lots of Aterms and Firefox tabs open. At the time i ran the ‘benchmark’ this was also the case.
Actually, I didn’t use KDE when I posted that. But just for kicks, I did a reboot and did a startx to fvwm, so this time you can’t claim there is ANY kde involvement. From there I started up firefox straigh away, browsed the same page and guess what.. total kB 86108 🙂
Besides, regarding the method I use, I thought the entire memory consumption that was interesting.. after all, memory consumed is memory consumed, viritual or not, as neither are endless resources.
We can go on with this forever, konqi will still be smaller and faster for me, but at the end of the day I suspect the only thing we will accomplish is to prove “luzerlinux” right. About the only thing that can be learned from this little experiment is that you (in a general sense, not specific) shouldn’t jump to conlusions about bullshit..
/me is off to bed.. Have a nice [insert applicable time of day] 🙂
Actually i still find your view on the matter quite bullshit, indeed and if that sounds harsh then so be it. But if i may teach you a lesson then: assume that when someone wants to know how much memory an application uses, they mean 1) RSS 2) want to know whats futher running on the system (to evade that cheating i talked about earlier). You didn’t provide the circumstances you were running (i guesses you were running KDE) and you didn’t state what you meant with ‘the memory used’ was. You used your own definition, which is far from being the normal one.
Besides, regarding the method I use, I thought the entire memory consumption that was interesting.. after all, memory consumed is memory consumed, viritual or not, as neither are endless resources. — Not really, because that memory would be used anyway. It doesn’t matter that IE uses like 128 MB either because say 64 MB of that is already loaded when Windows is booted right away. And 99/100 have IE preloaded on Windows. So the fact IE uses say 15 MB when having 3 pages open where FF uses say 55 MB is in _IE_’s its advantage regarding ‘which uses more’ memory argument (smart MS ehhh..) total kB 86108 🙂 ..and RSS (which actually matters, but which you don’t bother or dare to state) is about ~50 for FF and 45 for Konq (:
>I don’t know about K3B myself. I don’t burn CDs – I have an iPod for my music and files and so all I burn is ISOs and I can just right click them in Gnome and select write to disc for those. Everyone says that Gnome is really lacking here, but since I don’t use it, I don’t notice it.
This is a good point someone made earlier. Nautilus, with a bit more polish, would be fine for burning data CDs. I use it all the time for that. But do we really need a Gnome app for burning audio CDs?
I burn FLAC, OGG, MP3, etc. files to DVD-R for back up. I don’t even own a CD player anymore and who would want to lug CDs around?
No, konquerer is really not powerful at all. It is mearly a component viewer, with lots of plugins. People who like Gnome usually talk about all the fine applications, that mostly turn out to be non Gnome apps as they tend to count things like the Gimp, Mozilla,…
In KDE the boundary is not between applications its between components. The power is in the architecturre. Just look at kontact the new MS-Outlook look a like. All the components was allready there, it was just a matter of pulling them together in one window. The most important is of course kio-slaves that is supposed to do the same thing as gnome-vfs, only it works. Kio-slaves alone, is probably what keep people from switching to Gnome. They make it feel like you are sitting in front of the internet instead of in front of a computer screen.
The component architecture, and the highly network centric approach is very much in the unix tradition. But unfortunately KDE follows the unix tradition of making the configurability an excuse for not creating good defaults.
Even with all the wonders of kio-slaves I’m a bit worried about KDE. It is if they have no direction. Some parts of it is randomly chosen to be dumbified beond belief to fit newbies, and some of it is designed for the advanced user.
This means that there is no natural user for KDE in its default form, so most users tweek it heavily. This means basically that the newbies lose, as they don’t know how, and the geeks gets irritated having to turn off a lot of annoying newbie stuff.
The KDE team have to decide for themselves, who are they developing for, or Gnome will run them over, and that would be a pity on the excellent KDE technology.
Why do I need to have a text on the left side of each mail telling me if it is, or is not a HTML mail?
You can turn it off.
GREAT!! How?
>>Why do I need to have a text on the left side of each mail telling me if it is, or is not a HTML mail?
>>You can turn it off.
> GREAT!! How?
Configure->Appearance/layout tab ->Show HTML status bar.
“Even with all the wonders of kio-slaves I’m a bit worried about KDE. It is if they have no direction. Some parts of it is randomly chosen to be dumbified beond belief to fit newbies, and some of it is designed for the advanced user.”
May you elaborate this, please? I mean, real KDE examples, what apps are you talking about? And what does you feel this?
SimplyMEPIS is Gnome ready. Just apt-get into it and you’ve got a gnome desktop.
Quanta+ is a KDE application, because it uses the KDE libraries and technologies, conforms to KDE style guide, not because it is included in the standard KDE packages (and it wasn’t always included). Yet Bluefish (AFAIK) doesn’t use any Gnome libraries. Don’t know about Screem.
This is why you cannot call them Gnome applications (same for GIMP, OpenOffice.org or Scribus from the other side).
Regarding bugginess (for the other comment): 3.2.x was indeed more buggy that usually, so give it a try to 3.3.x if you are still interested.
im sorry, heres some clarification.
the vast majority of the people who would call themselves power users are people who think they know everything there is to know about computers, when in reality they know very little, or their knowledge is only in a very tight scope. good job for leaving your icons the default size, they are that way for a reason, and you realise this. you arnt the kind of guy im talking about. the kind of guy im talking about aliases ls to ls -al because he feels more powerful by hunting through all the stuff that was made invisible so you dont have to wade through it. im sure you know what im talking about, they exist for every operating system.
It is if they have no direction. Some parts of it is randomly chosen to be dumbified beond belief to fit newbies, and some of it is designed for the advanced user.”
May you elaborate this, please? I mean, real KDE examples, what apps are you talking about? And what does you feel this?
Well, its in many apps, but as you wanted a real examples lets take konqueror and file copy/move/link.
When you drag a desktop item to an other folder, a menu pops up at the drop location and asks you if you want to move,copy or link the file. The popup even contains a cancel item. This could be considered newbie friendly, but imagine sorting a couple of hundred images from your digital camera into various folders this way. Each time you move something you are asked if you want to copy or link or cancel.
To make it even worse the cancel item have the most graphically heavy menu icon. This means that most users will have their eyes on the cancel item as soon as the popup appears, and then move their eyes uppwarde to the move item at the top of the menu. In the process our newbie have to figure out what linking is, and in what direction the link have.
Now, consider, how often do you create a link, how often do you move things. Most people will find that link creation is an extremely rare activity. On a system with about 800 user, most of them technically skilled working in the computer business less than 0.5% of the files was links. Most of them was not created by human users but by various install scripts and the ones created by users was mostly created by sysadmins. Yet, you get the question if you want to link every time. As for the rest of the alternatives (move, copy , and cancel) I don’t have much statistics on move, copy and cancel, but from my own experience I would say that move dominates strongly and that cancel almost never occur.
By the way, why does this menu need a cancel button, when all other menus (exept one in kmail) seam to be able to do without it? How is it harder to click outside this menu to close it with no action, than do the same thing for the file menu? Either all menus should have this cancel button, or all.
To make it even worse, there is no other way to make links in than drag and drop the link target and selecting the link item. I have video taped lots of fairly advanced users that have have not been able to find how to do it. They look in context menus, and in file and edit menus, they test various toolbar icons but they don’t drag the file, even if thy just a few minutes ago moved or copied a file, and should have relized where the link menu was to be found.
Configure->Appearance/layout tab ->Show HTML status bar.
Thanks!
It was a “bug” in the Swedish translation that made me miss it. The word “bar” was translated into the Swedish word “rad” that I would translate back to english as “row”. I.e. something horizontal, and not vertical like the HTML status bar. So I never realized what the functioality was for or that it turned this thing off.
Quote:
im sorry, heres some clarification.
the vast majority of the people who would call themselves power users are people who think they know everything there is to know about computers, when in reality they know very little, or their knowledge is only in a very tight scope. good job for leaving your icons the default size, they are that way for a reason, and you realise this. you arnt the kind of guy im talking about. the kind of guy im talking about aliases ls to ls -al because he feels more powerful by hunting through all the stuff that was made invisible so you dont have to wade through it. im sure you know what im talking about, they exist for every operating system.
end-of-quote:
Ok, where I come from they are normally called “leet” ( quote marks pronouned) rather than power-user
/clap
very well put. usability is a techie blindspot, and it seems like the more of a geek you are, the less you really understand about interfaces (i know i was that way until it was pointed some tings out to me). what is kinda frustrating is that kde really is ahead on the technology side of thing, if they would spend a major version cleaning up the front end it would really be something to be reconed with.
Bluefish can use gnome-vfs, but I think that is where it ends with regards to gnome
Screem however is most definetly a gnome application and always has been, using gnome widgets, vfs, gconf, taking notice of gnome desktop preferences etc.
KDE is a clear winner on that! I use both gnome and kde on different periods (like seassons, or stages?), so I know what I love from one and hate from the other. Konqueror has a better use of different protocols, as sdp: sftp: ftp: smb: and many more copying files from one window to another without a glitch, thanks to kget.
On the browser side, I use Firefox in GNOME but in KDE, konqueror consumes less memory.
I find GNOME relaxing, its clearer, but WindowMaker rocks on speed and responsivness.
IMHO use GNOME today as good as use Win9x in modern computers with modern configuration.
Need a simplicity? Use Win3.11, good OS for writin’ small docs and playing minesweeper.
If you don’t need some KDE features, which you cannot see in GNOME, just forget about it…and upgrade your machine!