“Mark Driver, research director for Gartner Inc., spoke yesterday to a breakfast gathering of top-level marketing executives about trends in the app development market. He revealed some statistics about Java’s inroads, which led him to some interesting conclusions.” Read the highlights of this invitation-only event sponsored by Java Pro, and check out related coverage: “Driver on Java vs. .NET“, “Which Language is Number One?“, “Where is Java Going?“
Can Java and .NET Co-Exist?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Yes! they have no choice but to co-exist.
Sun has done a good job with Java but they could have done better!
With C#.Net as a competitor they’ll have to do better.
C# is a sweet language! All the way down to the key words, it just very correct.
I think Apple should really look into implementing .Net and C# on OS X. This may be their chance to actually get some respect in the enterprise.
ciao
yc
Java will last as long as it’s being tought in schools…
C# is a complete language and the .NET class library is also very complete.
I beleive this will be a battle won by performance and development tools. Sun has lots of work todo.
I wonder what the situation will be like in 18 months??
I thought this site was cool, followed a link from slashdot. Then I realized that most front page articles on this site are terribly written and poorly summarized rehashes of somebody else’s writing. It’s ALL bogus ripoff editorials. So, what’s the point? Admittedly, slashdot also has more features and looks better, which is sad. It also seems to be quite a bit slower than slashdot too.
to visit all the tech sites looking for intersting stuff.
Plus OSNews is [ment] to be Operating System News, stuff for OS Dev’s/people intersted in OS dev.
Slashdot is great, if you only want to hear ms bashing and the heralding of linux as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Here Eugenia links to articles on tons of oses, adds her own content, and btw when she links its prominent, not 2 pages in so you have to look at extra ads just to go to the real story. Going to slashdot for unbiased information is like going to microsoft.com for reviews about linux.
Nooo…. It’s about sex with goats, and ascii porn!
With any luck, them slashkiddies will never find a home here at OSNews…
“Go away kid, ya bother meee….”
– W.C. Fields
The first page of the highlights states
“Microsoft .NET supports multiple languages but is locked in to a single deployment—Windows. Java, on the other hand, supports multiple deployment options (even Windows) but is essentially a single language.”
How long will this be the case though, with the mono and DotGNU projects under development, surely this single deployment of .NET will be a short-lived problem?
I think Apple should really look into implementing .Net and C# on OS X. This may be their chance to actually get some respect in the enterprise.
Perhaps they already do: http://www.thinksecret.com/features/ximianosx.html>Ximian
that’s a good won.
from the record: the gottiesque softwar gangsters from redmoaned are NOT in the co-existence ‘business’ they are convicted baby-knifers, etc….
what is .net? how much does IT cost?
to put IT another weigh, the ONLY way to survive (stay breathing) in a megalomaniacal dictatorship, is to be dictated to. to put IT another way: NO there can be only won.
Uh, this only proves how much more extreme and *anti*-MS this site is compared to slashdot. Reading tripe from people who think “software gangsters” belong on the same level as people stab babies is definitely a new one to me. I can only conclude that MootPoint is onto something.
I invision it now:
ms_b0b and “how much does IT cost?” is the OSNews’s
“*BSD is dying” troll. can you say cheap slashdot refugee??
How long will this be the case though, with the mono and DotGNU projects under development, surely this single deployment of .NET will be a short-lived problem?
To quote <a href=”http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/Dn…
In addition to the CLI implementation and the C# compiler, the Shared Source CLI Implementation contains a cornucopia of tools, utilities, additional Framework classes, and samples. It will build and run on the Microsoft Windows® XP and the FreeBSD operating systems.
Although the first person I’ve talked to that compiled and ran this under FreeBSD noted that it seemed a bit slow, so I’d imagine there’s still some optimization to do, but this should accelerate some of the work being done to port this to other platforms.
ms_b0b is a fairly regular troll here and at other, similar sites, although it appears that he’s decided to stop linking his websites, probably in an attempt to avoid getting banned. After a while you just learn to ignore him, especially since his posts are almost as hard to read as they should be to write (although with the amount of practice he’s had, who knows?).
we need to keep the trolls away, I(you, everyone) don’t want this site to become another slashdot.
I guess we could “hire” a troll cleaner to remove this garbage
“Java, on the other hand, supports multiple deployment options (even Windows) but is essentially a single language.”
This isn’t true. You can write to the JVM using a ton more languages than .NOT supports.
“we need to keep the trolls away, I(you, everyone) don’t want this site to become another slashdot.”
The comments on this site are usually worse than Slashdot. Slashdot has its Linux crowd, its RTFM crowd and the BSD crowd (there may be a Windows crowd, but everyone knows that Windows sucks to nobody pays attention).
At OSNews, however, there are the BeOS zealots, Linux zealots (me included), *BSD zealots (me included), Mac zealots, .NOT zealots, Java zealots (me included), and those are only the major categories.
On Slashdot, even when there is an opposing view presented, you can still see a lot of funny posts and a lot of interesting and informative posts. Here, there’s rarely a funny post and ALL informative posts are met with name calling and character bashing and I pity anyone that makes the mistake of asking a question.
I like the articles presented on this site, and I respect those who run this site (mostly Eugenia), but a great deal of the postings on this site are not very pleasant. Out of frustration, I feel I have added to the poor atmosphere here as well.
cowlibob: How long will this be the case though, with the mono and DotGNU projects under development, surely this single deployment of .NET will be a short-lived problem?
You’re 100% right on this. Personally, I think the guy who wrote this artical is full of it. Were you to sum up all the strengths of Java over .NET, you would notice that every one of them is due to the fact that Java is an established platform, and .NET is immature (god forbid, since VS.NET is only a few months old!).
Certainly this guy’s implied prediction that .NET will still have the cross platform shortcommings it has today in 3 years are ludicrous.
On a slightly different note: Eugenia does a fantastic job of maintaining an unbiased and well coalessed portal of industry news. I like the fact that she provides directly quoted material from other sites in the header of each news item. I want to read the actual article and not just someone’s regurgitated bias engorged impression of what the article meant. That type of information can be quite readily discovered in the comments section! Also worthy of note is the fact that from time to time Eugenia will write an editorial, an article whose purpose is purely the venting of the opinions of the author. Eugenia keeps a good balance between unbiased industry event reporting, and the opinion based content which adds to the flavor of OSNews.
If you’ll stick around for a while and read some of the comments, you’ll find that regular contributers run a wide variety of different computing platforms, and not just the flavor (read: distribution) of the month. You just don’t get much more biased than modifying a real human bieng’s picture to resemble a fictional evil race, and using that picture to preface any comments you are going to make about said individual’s organization.
“C# is a sweet language! All the way down to the key words, it just very correct.”
Oh?
try doing this in C#
int i = 0;
switch(value) {
case 1:
i += 1;
case 2:
i += 1;
break;
}
It cannot be done, since fallthroughs aren’t supported *sigh*
I could name numerous falts in C#, that makes it an uncorrect language – I will refrain from this, though – since Java has it’s deal too
delegates, enums, structs… the list goes on…
Oh no, a language difference!! /me gets the burning cross to put on MS’s lawn!! C’mon.. That hardly makes it “uncorrect”. If you’ve got so many, at least come up with a good one. Actually having used it for quite some time, I find that one can make some pretty neat things in a VERY short amount of time. One example? The equiv. of win32’s URLDownloadToFile in about 10 lines.
<sigh>
Microsoft intentionally decided not to support fall-throughs. There is a reason for this. Fall-throughs are one of the biggest source of defects. Not to mention how hard these defects are to track down. Fall-throughs are way to easy to code accidentally.
There are way more things that C# can do that Java can’t. Try to deal with pointers or overload operators in Java. Also, try to create a GUI app in Java that doesn’t run like snot on a doorknob.
-G
I heared / read somewhere (probably Slashdot since they <u>ARE</u> M$ bashers) that .NET will cost the developer a lot of money. Once you would write a .NET service it will have to run on ther hailstorm servers and you will have to pay a lot of money. This will probably not be the case when the Mono implementation is finished and some of the developers could turn to Mono services but still; why bother? I have allready been developing in Java for a year and I can do the same in Java as in C# (yes, I can also develop in C#).
I do have to admit that C# is a more neat programming language…
I have to agree that fallthroughs in a switch statement are bad. There are a few bad things in C and its derivatives that make those languages inelegant, and this is one of them. In general, any structured statement that needs a break or a goto to construct a typical algorithm is bad. This kind of stuff was taught 20 years ago, and we still haven’t learnt. Ever tried to do algorithm proving when you’ve got unstructured program flow to contend with?
Here’s a list some of the things in C that I consider bad making it not my choice of structured language.
1) having to use a break statement.
2) return statements to denote subroutine exit (similar to above argument)
3) allowing assignments within expressions.
4) no nesting of procedures (i.e all procedures at lex level 1)
P
>try to create a GUI app in Java that doesn’t run like snot on a doorknob
Oh for fuck’s sake, look at eclipse! it is a jav app that runs native gui SWT. goddamn, do your research
sorry for the language
>look at eclipse…do your research
Nice try, jackass. I use Eclipse everyday at work, and I have even played around with the source. It is a little quicker than your average Java GUI app (only because it has C calls), but still not what you would call “very responsive”. It does not even compare to the speed of a C# app.
like what do you have? Pentium 233??
It cannot be done, since fallthroughs aren’t supported *sigh*
gee, someone missed that section where fallthroughs are not supported because it’s one of the most common mistakes programmers make in C, therefore you use the often hated goto statement…
I heared / read somewhere (probably Slashdot since they ARE M$ bashers) that .NET will cost the developer a lot of money. Once you would write a .NET service it will have to run on ther hailstorm servers and you will have to pay a lot of money.
If you’re writing a web service you can host it yourself. Not everyone using .Net is writing web services, though, and no one has to use MS’ servers if they don’t want to.
This will probably not be the case when the Mono implementation is finished and some of the developers could turn to Mono services but still; why bother?
It’s not the case with .Net, either, but in any case one’s here now and the other isn’t, yet. Personally, I’m not writing web services so I really don’t care about that portion of .Net. I really like C# from what I’ve worked with so far and might start porting some of my apps over shortly, but most of it’s going to be for testing at least for a while.
I have allready been developing in Java for a year and I can do the same in Java as in C# (yes, I can also develop in C#).
I do have to admit that C# is a more neat programming language…
You can also use an automated importer to import Java code into C#, or wait for the final of J# (beta 2 was released a week ago iirc). Personally, I’ll look at the cross-platform possibilities when my customer asks for another platform. I tend to isolate platform-specific code out of habit, anyway (comes from not having learned programming under Windows, but rather moving to it for work), and if the FreeBSD implementation or the Mono implementation works out well, then it shouldn’t be much of a stretch from either one to the *nix-like platforms that are more common in my customers’ environments.
I have used Java for a long time. I mostly like using JSP and Servlets (EJBs are cool too). I never write apps using JFC or AWT (mainly because I can’t figure out those damn layout managers, besides, that’s what C and C++ are for 8^) ).
Recently (since it became available in MSDN) I began working with C# and ASP.NET. I have to say that both of these things are really cool (well, ASP.NET is cool if you don’t use VB). I also like the fact that C#’s RAD environment has most of the features that I like from C++Builder and Delphi.
As far as technical merit and ability go, both Sun and Microsoft technologies have their strong points and their weak points.
The main thing I see as a problem is the cost for the programmer. If you work for a company that provides the tools, great. On the other hand, if you have to buy your own software you’ll have to get a second mortgage.
C#/ASP.NET database development (SQL Server) will cost you several thousand just to buy all the stuff you need to make it happen. I know that other tools are supposed to be available at some point, but they aren’t right now and I doubt they will be free either.
Java JSP/Servlet database development (MySQL or PostgreSQL) will cost you nothing. I did decide to purchase a fairly expensive editor (Visual SlickEdit) but I didn’t have to.
I think cost is the biggest thing .NET and C# have going against them.
>like what do you have? Pentium 233??
WTF? Doesn’t matter what system I have. I have written both C# and Java GUI apps on the SAME system, and there is no comparison. Our servers at work are dual P4 Xeons (2Ghz a piece) with 2 Gigs of RAM. Eclipse runs fine on this, but still not as fast as a native app on my PIII machine. And don’t forget that Eclipse is not written entirely in Java.
BTW Camel, you can get the .NET SDK for free just like you can get the Java SDK for free. It costs you nothing to write .NET apps in C#, VB, or any other language that is supported, unless you want to use Visual Studio. And there are free IDEs that support C#.
-G
they both contain native code that uses native GUI, therefore the slow gui is not because of the gui system, but because of the code that is below the gui system, saying that java gui is slow is pure speculation
>saying that java gui is slow is pure speculation
Speculation? I am not speculating anything. Realtime performance is all anybody would need to see the difference in speed.
the difference in speed of the gui, or the difference in speed of the underlying architecture??
>the difference in speed of the gui, or the difference in speed of the underlying architecture??
Either way, Java GUIs are slower. It is a simple fact.