Tom Adelstein interviews Ricardo Wagemaker on DesktopLinux.com. Wagemaker, based in the UK, is founder of GCCLinux.com, a company (Global Computer Corporation) and Web site dedicated to supporting GNU/Linux–and the Java Desktop System (“JDS”) in particular–as the premier entertainment and gaming environment.
JDS gets Gaming Support from GCCLinux.com
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
which doesn’t even run on gnu/linux. I runs on x86 solaris (are their nvidia drivers)?
reading stuff as:
Ricardo Wagemaker – Project Looking Glass, also known to the techies as lg3d is a project that will one day replace the existing 2D desktop environment with which all Linux users are familiar. Lg3d is revolutionizing the computer desktop environment not only for the Linux users but also for the people who currently deploy Windows.
For several years now, we became accustomed to traditional 2D desktop environment like Gnome, and KDE and many others where the changes to each version has always been to improve the stability, flexibility and trying to attract the eyes of the user . But now LG3D is being created with a whole new concept where the desktop environment is not only going to be more stable, flexible, and attractive to users but it’s coming with a new concept where the desktop is going to be presented to the people exactly the way they see it in real life; in 3D and panoramically. We are used to 3D environment from the day we are born so now with LG3D we can simply continue our way of living in our work environment.
Looking glass is a rip-off of an decade old MS user interface prototype (Task Gallery) combined with hardware accelerated desktop graphics (first done by Apple). That’s for originality.
On the usabillity front, now, Looking Glass doesn’t bring anything new. There is not a series of UI improvements, and there is not an underlying metaphor, except that program panes float in 3D space.
The only thing the found that is marginally interresting is turning windows around to scribble notes on their back. Not something to write a note home about (pun intented). Oh, and the hideous silly “jukebox” example.
It’s also interesting that while desktops in both Linux and Windows (and even OS X) are far from perfect, instead of improving on them people propose a new gimmick technology as the panacea. Get real!
Now, something like Looking Glass is needed on Linux, in order to get competitive with Quartz. But non in Java code, for christ’s sake. When it emerges it will be more like a unified abstraction API on top of X-Windows.
So, there.
Focker Said:
Now, something like Looking Glass is needed on Linux, in order to get competitive with Quartz. But non in Java code, for christ’s sake. When it emerges it will be more like a unified abstraction API on top of X-Windows.
Linux doesn’t really need something like Looking Glass. Xorg is improving at a mind blowingly fast rate. I now have fully hardware rendered trans and drop shadows…no patching required. Latest KDE + Latest Xorg Release = me a visually happy camper. What the Linux desktop “NEEDS” is a nice balance between usablility (for Aunt Bea) and configurability (for ME!), extremes of these exist but there really is no middle ground (not kde, not gnome, not xfce…etc.). MacOSX is a perfect example of Configurabillity + Usabillity, simply a joy to work with.
‘Sun leads the entertainment industry’ is just a bizarre thing to say. He must be on crack to say things like this.
‘I believe JDS offers the best visual experience for Linux especially when it comes to desktop rendering’ – Now wtf does that mean? JDS uses exactly the same ‘stagnated for 5 years under XFree86 development regime’ X Server, font renderers and widget sets (actually it uses the same old versions of GNOME, Qt and the JDK as an ancient version of SuSE – it simply can’t provide ‘the best visual experience for Linux’ – The crack must be really good where this guy lives.
And PLG? I wont say too much about this, as i haven’t used it myself, and dont want to be overwhelmingly negative, but I cant see PLG playing nicely with too many games, many of which expect to take a fullscreen mode.
Overall, its nice for JDS users that someone is packaging existing Linux games for them, but really, its about a weeks work or so (if that) to get all the major playable linux games together, build them from source and put a shortcut in the GNOME menu to start them. Big Whoop.
Most of this article is just buzzword-laced drivel mixed up with a generous helping of wishful thinking.
He must think people reading this interview are clueless idiots. What, is he ex-Sun or something?
Wondering why they would choose JDS? easy SUN set a standard! Solaris X86 has remained relativily unchanged for a long time now and is a single monlithic OS. What i mean is that if a developer decides to write software for the JDS platform they are almost assure a consistent environment for the future; a code stable development environment. This is not something Linux can provide at the moment with the plethora of Distros in existence today. GNU OSS software work great on Solaris x86 so why not.
Why not give a chance to LG on how it is currently thought and designed.
Java as you all know provides an excelent development environment for basic stuff.
This is what linux needs more than ” …, for christ’s sake.-” (RE on Looking glass needed? by davidsmind).
Java is modular, Java is easy for begginers, for verry verry beginners it is verry verry easy.
For advanced users it is on the path(complex).
But for LG to evolve needs to provide a devel framework for applications like that neat CD-ManagementStorage utillity.
That thing is innovation and who knows what it might come up.
So, i understand that just because you want or for the reason of not using java, everything should follow Xorg+extensions+new additions.
Xorg main issue is: (ask yourself)
How many programmers really code their graphical applications starting from X directly ?
Verry few I say, except the really neat guys that need it explicitly.
On the other hand, java and not only(i am not against fox,fltk,qt,gtk -gnome,kde + directfb,fresco(berlin if it is still alive)) provide good, mature abstractization.
Do you commonly see wrappers arround java frameworks?
Dont come here with speed reasons, quallity and nice effects need a good computer and a computer that copes with compozite,dropshadows&other effects can for sure cope with java.
I dont love java in any special way(I actually dislike current swing implementation because of it bloating), i just mention that a hard work can bee seen.
People, put this into your heads: Abstractization means eazyness, even if in the beggining it seems complex, after all the thinking of makeing something applicable to many it really does worth the pain.
Code classes with more than 5000 lines of code, make a project of about 12.000 lines of code, and you will know what i mean when i say good stuff is made to stay.
Open your eyes.
…to substantially improve the OpenGL performance of Solaris 10 on x86 and AMD64. The next generation of Sun Opteron workstations will feature nVidia graphics accelerators.
Looking glass is a rip-off of an decade old MS user interface prototype (Task Gallery) combined with hardware accelerated desktop graphics (first done by Apple). That’s for originality.
Task Gallery was more about spatial organization of data whereas Looking Glass is about improving desktop usability and window management through the use of a 3D desktop environment.
Looking Glass is also something you can download today versus simply being a research prototype.
Now wtf does that mean? JDS uses exactly the same ‘stagnated for 5 years under XFree86 development regime’ X Server, font renderers and widget sets (actually it uses the same old versions of GNOME, Qt and the JDK as an ancient version of SuSE – it simply can’t provide ‘the best visual experience for Linux’ – The crack must be really good where this guy lives.
You’re posting a rather ignorant comment based on out-of-date information. JDS2 will be Solaris 10 based rather than sitting on top of SuSE.
This is an excellent move which will bring feature parity with Microsoft enterprise environments. See this post:
http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=8544&offset=15&rows=23#291170
It also means that Sun need not worry about relying on SuSE in the future, which is owned by Novell, a company in which Sun’s competator IBM owns a rather large stake.
Do you commonly see wrappers arround java frameworks?
No, and that’s a mark of how bad Java is at times. Just look at how slow Jython is. I suppose people can’t be bothered really either.
Dont come here with speed reasons, quallity and nice effects need a good computer and a computer that copes with compozite,dropshadows&other effects can for sure cope with java.
That’s exactly why. I have an AMD Duron 1800 based machine with a decent amount of memory in it that can handle eye candy, and running one Java client-side app is just about bearable. Once you start running more, your machine drops through the floor.
People, put this into your heads: Abstractization means eazyness, even if in the beggining it seems complex
Sometimes, abstraction just means more complex. Java Event Listeners have been one of many bones of contention over the years, adding more lines of code than is really necessary.
Using Java as the basis for serious 3D gaming (or heavy hardware intensive 3D work of any kind) is one of the most laughable things I’ve ever heard.
> You’re posting a rather ignorant comment based on
> out-of-date information. JDS2 will be Solaris 10 based
> rather than sitting on top of SuSE.
And you’re making forward-looking statements based on what is currently not a released product.
I’m simply looking at JDS as it stands today. If the guy said ‘JDS *will provide* XXX when the next version of JDS is out the door…’ then i wouldnt have made the comment I did.
Please explain wtf he is talking about w/regard to his goal of ‘make Linux the quintessential entertainment platform from gaming to advanced viewing.’ This project has nothing to do with the Solaris version of JDS.
If you would like to provide a download link to an evaluation version of the JDS running on Solaris 10 that provides measurably better desktop rendering performance than any currently available Linux distribution, please do so.
If not, dont call me ignorant, because it simply illustrates your obvious arrogance.
OK I usually try not to feed the trolls but I…can’t…stop ..myself…
Do you commonly see wrappers arround java frameworks?
No, and that’s a mark of how bad Java is at times. Just look at how slow Jython is. I suppose people can’t be bothered really either.
How bad Java is at what? Like any language there is great stuff written in Java and some not so great stuff. Jython is great for scripting Java, but it’s well known that it runs slower than plain old Java. Heck, Python runs much slower than C. That’s part of the price you pay with dynamic interpreted languages. Come on…do I really need to be explaining this to OSNews readers?
[snip] I have an AMD Duron 1800 based machine with a decent amount of memory in it that can handle eye candy, and running one Java client-side app is just about bearable. Once you start running more, your machine drops through the floor.
Please don’t spread that FUD B.S. I usually have a stack of Java apps open at anyone time (right now I have open JEdit, Eclipse, Aqua Data Studio, smartcvs, matlab (the UI is Java), and a Java application I’m developing all open at once.). Everything is running quite snappily.
Using Java as the basis for serious 3D gaming (or heavy hardware intensive 3D work of any kind) is one of the most laughable things I’ve ever heard.
Again..that’s more B.S. There’s a lot of work going on with Java 3D these days. Take a look at http://www.xj3d.org/ and https://jogl.dev.java.net/. I’ve seen some very impressive demonstrations of these technologies.
Do you commonly see wrappers arround java frameworks?
That only means that there are better languages for frameworks than Java for non Java Projects. Being a Java programer these days. I’ll choose C or C++ for a game engine or a numeric intensive application. For servers Java is very good and on the desktop it seems to become better…
Other reason for not doing wrappers with it is that not all languages have a garbage collector based memory management system. This, for itself, raises issues about who creates/disposes/owns a piece of memory…
That’s exactly why. I have an AMD Duron 1800 based machine with a decent amount of memory in it that can handle eye candy, and running one Java client-side app is just about bearable. Once you start running more, your machine drops through the floor.
Actually you need a recent graphics card first.
For instace, I had this Pentium 2 500Mhz 512Mb computer with an NVidia GeForce2 an it handle Java and 3D games very good. Don’t know how it deels with Looking Glass (I gave it to my brother) , but I’m sure it can cope with LG3D as my laptop handles this well an for all I’ve seen with the publically availble demo most processing is handle by the GPU.
The 500Mhz PC had for a long time handle very responsive development environment with Linux/NetBeans/Oracle/Tomcat in the same machine.
Using Java as the basis for serious 3D gaming (or heavy hardware intensive 3D work of any kind) is one of the most laughable things I’ve ever heard.
Nonsense! http://chromethegame.com/en/show.php
Java isn’t doing all the work…
For instance, Java3D is a wrapper/framework on DirectX (for MS-Windows) and OpenGL.
Many of the games today use a form or another of interpreted (scripting) languages around various low level frameworks written in C/C++. These languages can be even slower than Java. (I’m not saying that Java is slow though).
The only thing the found that is marginally interresting is turning windows around to scribble notes on their back. Not something to write a note home about (pun intented). Oh, and the hideous silly “jukebox” example.
IMHO: the scribble notes thinggy it’s the only uninteresting thing. The jukebox is very interesting as it shows a rather intuitive interface done in 3D.
‘Sun leads the entertainment industry’ is just a bizarre thing to say. He must be on crack to say things like this.
you’re taking that sentence out of context. what he said in full:
“Sun also leads the entertainment industry in several key categories such as security, wireless technology and deployment.”
.. as far as java goes, isn’t looking glass’s window manager implemented wholly in java? if so, that should be a testament of it’s performance right there (or at least, show that it’s certainly nowhere near as bad as its perception is).
For instance, Java3D is a wrapper/framework on DirectX (for MS-Windows) and OpenGL.
Many of the games today use a form or another of interpreted (scripting) languages around various low level frameworks written in C/C++. These languages can be even slower than Java. (I’m not saying that Java is slow though).
Because of bounds checking, no user-defined value types, and now with its generics implementation that is all objects under the hood its not really suited for heavy, 3d/physics engine stuff. On the other hand its not really suited for the scripting/game code either. It’s rather low-level. Something like Lua(which is used extensively in the gaming industry) or Python would seem to be more appropriate for that type of code.
Just to clarify: JDS is positioned as an operating environment. The underlying OS isn’t the focus – the packaging is. It runs on Linux x86 today (JDS 1 & 2) and will incorporate Solaris on both x86 and Sparc – all three will be supported moving forward (JDS3).
Yes I do work for Sun…
Regards
Wayne
I seems to me that the world has its critics and then it has its doers. How many of the critics actually accomplish something, have a vision, strive to make things better.
If someone works toward a goal, as it seems Mr. Wagemaker has, then why must you criticize him? It’s all the thing to do, show off and pretend you know something when in fact you know very little.
You remind me of the old women of the village where I grew up. They sat around commenting and passing judgement on everything. But, they never got up and even cooked. They wanted their children to take care of them.
Nothing can be said to be wrong with Java. It’s free software. It may not fit your perverted need to push a socialistic agenda on the work, but at least the project itself is GPL.
You remind me of an old saying – “the dog barks at the mountain”.
Please don’t spread that FUD B.S. I usually have a stack of Java apps open at anyone time (right now I have open JEdit, Eclipse, Aqua Data Studio, smartcvs, matlab (the UI is Java), and a Java application I’m developing all open at once.). Everything is running quite snappily.
Java is slow on the client-end – period. Let’s just cut the crap now, because I’m not talking about how snappy your desktop is, or isn’t. I always think the words snappy or snappily are a dead giveaway anyway
.
That’s why you don’t see companies developing client-side Java applications on a widespread basis. You can call that BS all you like, but it’s true. Compared to integrated Windows applications and native code they take up a mountain of resources and the UIs are especially damn slow. Given the things that companies do with their (especially custom) applications that make them slow to start up and use anyway, add Java to the equation and you’ve got something totally unusable.
The situation has got better with 1.5, but it’s already too late. Sun just haven’t put in the donkey work in for Java and the VM between 1997 and 2000 that would have made it unsurpassed on the client. That’s why people have called for Java to be open-sourced – because Sun just haven’t cut it.
If a lot of people start calling something a duck, it’s usually because it is a duck.
Again..that’s more B.S. There’s a lot of work going on with Java 3D these days. Take a look at http://www.xj3d.org/ and https://jogl.dev.java.net/. I’ve seen some very impressive demonstrations of these technologies.
It isn’t BS I’m afraid. Name me a first person shooter or 3D modelling applications in used in hospitals and elsewhere written in Java, actually being used and sold, on a widespread basis?
Unfortunately, people mistake demonstrations for actual real-world usage. Linux on the desktop has been going through a similar phase for a while.
Nothing can be said to be wrong with Java. It’s free software. It may not fit your perverted need to push a socialistic agenda on the work, but at least the project itself is GPL.
What?
t isn’t BS I’m afraid. Name me a first person shooter or 3D modelling applications in used in hospitals and elsewhere written in Java, actually being used and sold, on a widespread basis?
http://chromethegame.com/en/show.php — parts of this commercially available game is written in java, well actually most of it. not sure about the engine though
You continue claiming that java is slow on the desktop?
Why, what kind of programs you us? What do you have there?
64MB of RAM or what?
TROLL.
No, JDS2 won’t be based on Solaris 10 — it will be an alternative. JDS will be available based on Solaris *and* Linux, the choice is yours.
Task Gallery was more about spatial organization of data whereas Looking Glass is about improving desktop usability and window management through the use of a 3D desktop environment.
Wrong. Task Gallery was about spatial (ie 3D) organization of both data and programs (TASKS!!!!) and it was meant to be a RESEARCH program on desktop usabillity.
Project Looking Glass, on the other hand, is a piece of code a SUN employee hacked together at his spare time and his managers thought it looked cool and promoted it to a project after the drooling and fuss at Slashdot and such. “Let’s get it out, who knows, it might earn us some ‘cool open source’ points”, probably was the reasoning.
The only three “usability” enhancements the came by (read them and weep):
– The horrible CD changer UI.
– Rotaing windows in 3D space. Now, that’s usable!
– Turning Windows around to scribble notes. Wow!
Every idiot that drools over the eye candy (limited eye candy at that), goes on like “Well, don’t knock it off, you’ ll never know when innovation is going to strike”. Bollocks, I say.
Looking Glass is also something you can download today versus simply being a research prototype.
Research prototypes are meant to examine and produce ideas that get into OTHER projects in due time, not to download and run them.
Looking Glass, not being a research prototype is simply a crappy app. SUN toots it as a “inovattion” and leading the way, but it hasn’t produced a single new idea to enhance desktop usabillity and productivity.
So, there.
I seems to me that the world has its critics and then it has its doers. How many of the critics actually accomplish something, have a vision, strive to make things better.
To complete your argument, let me point that:
Hitler was a doer.
You also forgot an extra category: the doers of crap. Like Looking Glass.
You continue claiming that java is slow on the desktop?
Why, what kind of programs you us? What do you have there?
64MB of RAM or what?
People not trained in computer science have a difficulty understanding that Moore’s law doesn’t cure SLOW programs. A bad implementation (like Swing) or bad algorithms will always be slow.
Also, keep in mind that while Java programs get marginally faster with improvements in RAM and CPUs, native programs get faster two. So the comparison is always bad for Java.
On top of this, even if I have 8 GB of RAM, a Java program will be *slower* than a native program. Think an audio application. Even with a Pentium 8 Ghz with 64GB ram, the native version will open MORE say, reverb plugins than the Java one.
If I see that I can run 400 plugins versus 100 with Java, some would say it doesnt matter since, who runs 100 plugins simultaneously anyway. But they are wrong. Why? Because our EXPECTATIONS expand to fill all the available CPU and speed bandwidth. And algorithms get written to exploit it.
So this means that the uber-plugin that is equivalent to 200 of common plugins (more demanding algorithm) will run 2 instances in native and NONE in Java.
See my point?
That’s why you don’t see companies developing client-side Java applications on a widespread basis. You can call that BS all you like, but it’s true. Compared to integrated Windows applications and native code they take up a mountain of resources and the UIs are especially damn slow. Given the things that companies do with their (especially custom) applications that make them slow to start up and use anyway, add Java to the equation and you’ve got something totally unusable.
Ahhh, but I do see lots of companies developing client-side java applications. We’ve got tons of custom in-house applications here and every one of my developers runs commercial or open-source java apps on their desktop every single day. Why? 1) You can find people you can afford to develop in Java. We had an important application that was written in smalltalk. It’s pretty hard to find smalltalk programmers to make changes and when you, well, specialty consultants can be pricey. 2) Java development can be relativley fast compared to C/C++/whatever. i.e. we can get our projects out the door in a timely fashion. 3) It’s harder for Java developers to use code tricks. There’s a thousand different ways to do just about anything in C++. That kind of power is great but doesn’t make for easily maintainable code. 4) Java has great libriaries available that you can use for just about anything you need. Need to talk to a Video Card, hey there’s Quicktime for Java, Need to talk to a database, well there’s JDBC. It’s easy to get work done using Java. 5) Java is fast enough. Most apps aren’t games that need to maximize the work done in every computing cycle. They are just tools to allow a user to get some work done.
Now be honest, it’s simply amazing how fast modern computers are. We can play the Java is slower than X game, just as people liked to play the C is slower than assembly. We can even argue whether C or Fortran is faster. But for the people who are using apps to get work done. They don’t notice and really they don’t care.
You’re still a Troll.
On top of this, even if I have 8 GB of RAM, a Java program will be *slower* than a native program. Think an audio application. Even with a Pentium 8 Ghz with 64GB ram, the native version will open MORE say, reverb plugins than the Java one.
Look, just saying so doens’t make it so. Statements like this without numbers, benchmarks, or concrete examples to back them up are just talk.
Ahhh, but I do see lots of companies developing client-side java applications. We’ve got tons of custom in-house applications here and every one of my developers runs commercial or open-source java apps on their desktop every single day.
I’m not particularly interested in you or your developers. Go out into the world and actually talk to companies that haven’t used Java at the client end and ask why. It isn’t because they haven’t wanted to.
Look, just saying so doens’t make it so. Statements like this without numbers, benchmarks, or concrete examples to back them up are just talk.
You don’t need benchmarks. It is simple plain logic.