Microsoft has filed a report with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission warning that 2005 could be challenging, as Linux continues to steal business and PC sales remain sluggish. Elsewhere, Microsoft chief executive Steve Ballmer touted his company’s vision for a bright future, while casting doubt on alternatives to his company’s Windows operating system, in particular Linux when addressing a gathering of software industry leaders.
Microsoft: Linux may mean Windows price cuts, fewer sales
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Microsoft acts as if they are immortal, or some force that the world relies on for sustinence. Car companies don’t say “well, ford’s taking a lot of our business, so if you don’t start telling them to stop, honda’s might get more expensive”…
Microsoft is just one company making an operating system. People can do it too, just as people can (though not as easily as a Linux based OS) make their own car, or buy one from another company.
Damn, what a shame
And his claim the Windows is easier to maintain is without merit – I don’t have any trouble maintaining at home, but I wouldn’t want to touch it in a corporate enviroment where other people are using it 
“well, ford’s taking a lot of our business, so if you don’t start telling them to stop, honda’s might get more expensive”
I think the report stated that ther would be price cuts not increases. They have to file theses reports about thier business outlook going by SEC regs.
And the fact of the matter is that it takes more MSCE’s to run a large number of Windows workstations than UNIX admins looking after the same number of UNIX workstations.
Ballmer takes a shot at every single thing that people say is better than Microsoft’s offerings. Microsoft has a documented way of taking care of bugs. What about the Linux world? They’ve got all these bug trackers, a hodge-podge of maintainers, a handful of testers for each piece of software- sometimes these testers test MORE THAN ONE PIECE OF SOFTWARE!! These free software guys are all over the board! You never know where the crazy hippies are gonna be next! Hey, one minute, you could be talking to a developer in the USA, then the next, you end up talking to a guy in Norway! And it’s confusing!! I mean, this Norwegian, speaking fluent English!? What’s up with that? I mean, they’re just all over the map! With Microsoft, you know that everything’s being done by people who don’t want to be fired, most of them live in Redmond, Washington, and they all speak English because they’re all Americans.
Windows is easy: you’ve got .NET, and a bunch of tightly integrated apps. Linux? Pssh, you’ve got at least… 10 different things for every purpose! It’s craziness, I tell you!
Has Ballmer ever used Linux? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Has he ever used a BSD, which is lisenced such that any company can make money off other people’s work? Didn’t think so. But appearantly, the BSD’s are light years better than Linux.
Windows is a decent technology. It isn’t bad. It’s just got a big, hairy, sweaty man standing behind it, and that’s a little weird. Where do YOU want to go today?
“And his claim the Windows is easier to maintain is without merit – I don’t have any trouble maintaining at home, but I wouldn’t want to touch it in a corporate enviroment where other people are using it
”
Well thats good because the tools and knowledge needed to keep a company network working and secure shouldn’t be used by people who “don’t have any trouble maintaining” thier home PC.
People who are experts on thier home PC’s have screwed up alot of company equipment. They are more of a problem than complete novices who need hand holding.
“And the fact of the matter is that it takes more MSCE’s to run a large number of Windows workstations than UNIX admins looking after the same number of UNIX workstations.”
Where did you obtain this fact? Please provide a link.
“And the fact of the matter is that it takes more MSCE’s to run a large number of Windows workstations than UNIX admins looking after the same number of UNIX workstations.”
Where did you obtain this fact? Please provide a link.
Do you really need backup for this? Linux/UNIX boxes don’t get worms, spyware, viruses, etc. and can be locked down harder as well as more easily scripted. I think saying they require less maintanence isn’t very far fetched.
How exactly is GNU/Linux or ‘Free’ software ‘stealing’ business away from MS (or any other commercial outfit)? Where I come from you are suppose to earn your customers.
Sorta reminds me of that loopy company, I think they were called Caldear or something.
How exactly is GNU/Linux or ‘Free’ software ‘stealing’ business away from MS
Ballmer never said “steal” or “stealing” in the SEC report. Blame Eugenia for that one. Sheesh, you guys are worse than Slashdot when it comes to not reading the articles…
Oh Come on.
Google gave me this; http://www.cioupdate.com/article.php/10493_1477911
[i]Linux, along with Solaris, also came out ahead of Windows in terms of administration costs, despite the fact that it’s less expensive to hire Windows system administrators. The average Windows administrator in the study earned $68,500 a year, while Linux sys admins took home $71,400, and those with Solaris skills were paid $85,844. The Windows technicians, however, only managed an average of 10 machines each, while Linux or Solaris admins can generally handle several times that.[i]
This is worthless of course, since I’m sure you could find articles to the contrary after a quick google as well.
As a well documented example on the other hand… Google is an excellent example of having relativily few Administrators for a large number of machines.
“And the fact of the matter is that it takes more MSCE’s to run a large number of Windows workstations than UNIX admins looking after the same number of UNIX workstations.”
Where did you obtain this fact? Please provide a link
Let’s see. What do I have installed on my home and corporate windows machines….oh yes. I’ve got spyware checkers, virus scanners, pop-up blockers, etc. I know of several organizations that strongly discourage the use of IE because it’s such a HUGE security risk.(you can’t really stop the use of IE because you can’t remove it) At my company we constantly are dealing with windows machines that get infected with something nasty. It’s nearly impossible to keep everything up on the latest patches ’cause they come out so darn often.
On our UNIX side we once, a long while back, had someone rootkit one of our machines. Other than that I’ve never had a problem with any of the UNIX, Linux, or Mac OS X machines I work with.
On top of that windows licensing for servers gets very expensive very quickly…we’re currently looking at replacing our windows servers. In our cost/benefit analysis windows stink. The trouble is that once you get people hooked on ‘junk’ (i.e word docs, excel spreadsheets, exchange), it’s hard to ween them off. Not because the MS stuff is better, just because the alternatives require a change. Change comes hard to people in the trenches who’s buisness is to get work done rather than play with computers 😉
Microsoft is becoming less of a monopoly. Competitive pricing and higher quality, thank you Linux!
Congratulations Nathan, well said!
whoever might mod you down is definetly not getting what you are really saying.
having a beer for all yas!
It would be very satisfying to see microsoft become “Netscaped.”
And I thought lower volumes meant higher prices?
This just shows that the prices of software is an imagination.
Why can’t companies set a price based on what the product is worth or the costs of production instead of the highest amount possible without loosing costumers?
This is not unique to MS, a lot of companies in the software business is getting away with it, even when there’s competition. Hopefully it will change.
Actually blame cnet, it’s in the articles first paragraph.
Delaenda est:
See in complément this instructive “News”
Thanks, Linux
Daniel Lyons, 08.31.04, 3:00 PM ET
http://www.forbes.com/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html
When i red it, I wondered, if someone can beleave these arguments ?
see it and belive it.
ummm… that’s called the laws of supply and demand. EVERY company who wants to make a proffit should charge as much as they can.
Ballmer takes a shot at every single thing that people say is better than Microsoft’s offerings. Microsoft has a documented way of taking care of bugs. What about the Linux world? They’ve got all these bug trackers, a hodge-podge of maintainers, a handful of testers for each piece of software- sometimes these testers test MORE THAN ONE PIECE OF SOFTWARE!! These free software guys are all over the board! You never know where the crazy hippies are gonna be next! Hey, one minute, you could be talking to a developer in the USA, then the next, you end up talking to a guy in Norway! And it’s confusing!! I mean, this Norwegian, speaking fluent English!? What’s up with that? I mean, they’re just all over the map! With Microsoft, you know that everything’s being done by people who don’t want to be fired, most of them live in Redmond, Washington, and they all speak English because they’re all Americans.
Hey, but this doesn’t help that OSS products already beat Microsoft’s at several arena, does it?
So because “they are all americans” doesn’t really help so much.
Oh if you confused because you have to talk to other people from other continents, … then you are not them.
OSS devs are doing this for years … and they are not confused, do they? Because they already delivered very good products at several arena, from kernels, to GUIs, to web server, to scripting, office tools, etc. (unless games). They DID.
So you are not them, speak for your self.
Don’t patronized people all over the world have the same limitation like you. They don’t.
The Windows technicians, however, only managed an average of 10 machines each, while Linux or Solaris admins can generally handle several times that.
I always had a problem with that statement. Can you help me, please: how many Solaris desktops are in any given organization other than, perhaps, Sun?
Could it be, that this research mixed Solaris admins managing Solaris SERVERS with Windows admins managing Windows desktops?
I am working in organization where one Windows admin manages close to 200 Windows Servers in controlled server room environment, and from looking at him I would not say that he is overworked. Not at all.
Why 200? Just because there aren’t more in the server room.
Yet, no problems with servers.
As a well documented example on the other hand… Google is an excellent example of having relativily few Administrators for a large number of machines.
Google machines are servers, right? Thank you for supporting my point.
My guess is, biggest Damage to Microsoft will come from Sun on next years.. No matter how linux zealots bash the company..
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/18/sun_nsw_microsoft_win/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/29/sun_aib_deal/
http://channelzone.ziffdavis.com/article2/0,1759,1618244,00.asp
http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2004062902326NWDTDP
Linux has a lot going for it, as it is built upon some of the most advanced OS designs available. Windows has some design flaws in respect to academic OS designs. However, Windows has done well through extraordinary marketing and some clever innovation. Microsoft did well, but they must do more with innovation. Their hybrid OS design is simply not going to cut it for much longer, because it has become a complication and a security issue.
What needs to be done is a complete review of our academic views on OS design. OS design has fallen so far behind schedule in regards to evolution that it’s saddening.
Price cuts have been on the horizon regardless of Linux or Unix or Mac’s OS. Today’s OS designs aren’t really worth their weight in gold anymore.
If you read these articles, it always appears that Microsoft is like a big child, “It’s always someone elses fault”.
Maybe if they dropped that mentality and looked at how it could be THEIR fault things arn’t going to plan, maybe the entire computing world would be better off.
I for one have to admit, when you have competition thats FREE, it’s pretty hard to deal with, but look at Sun, Solaris, their own little gem, now up for grabs for anyone to use at home… I got it, and I really like it, and I’m not a *NIX freak at all…. I think Microsoft needs to stop thinking things are going to be happy happy joy joy like they were in the 80’s and 90’s and get on with life… Time to get past adolescence and move on. The time when you could simply buyout your competition is over folk.
I am working in organization where one Windows admin manages close to 200 Windows Servers in controlled server room environment, and from looking at him I would not say that he is overworked. Not at all.
Interesting statistic.
Our organization is the exact opposite.
We have 6 full-time MCSEs handling a little over 100 machines.
We have 8 full-time *ix (Solaris,HP-UX,Linux) handling a little over 1300 *ix machines.
On top of that – we’ve had to engineer an isolated Windows network infrastructure because of issues with Windows not playing in the *ix sandbox nicely. We find ourselves (the engineers) constantly having to do additional ‘engineering’ to ensure that Windows environment is stable.
But appearantly, the BSD’s are light years better than Linux.
A bad troll, and is untrue.
Can run beautifully in the hands of the right technician. Problem with Windows is that you often times find it on the desktop in corporate enviroment being used by Joe Sixpack at work, which can (and often does) make for a dangerous combination.
As for me, I went for 2 years at work on a Win2k install with no problems, then they gave me a new machine in May also running Win2k, and still running flawlessly 3 months later.
” And the fact of the matter is that it takes more MSCE’s to run a large number of Windows workstations than UNIX admins looking after the same number of UNIX workstations. ”
Not so, Im an MCSE and It takes only three of us to maintain and update 200 some Windows workstations 74 Linux workstations and a handful of other OS workstations I also maintain 16 Windows Server 2003 based machines with SuSE Linux Virtual machines also on those boxes and surprisingly I have never had a massive virus infection, I have never had a Windows Server hacked or exploited. Geez I wonder what I am doing wrong?
” Ballmer takes a shot at every single thing that people say is better than Microsoft’s offerings. Microsoft has a documented way of taking care of bugs. What about the Linux world? They’ve got all these bug trackers, a hodge-podge of maintainers, a handful of testers for each piece of software- sometimes these testers test MORE THAN ONE PIECE OF SOFTWARE!! ”
I dont think the number of Linux developers is as high as everyone believes, of all of my Linux clients I have 1 that even messes with the kernel in any way the rest use the default kernel that ships with their distribution.
” you know that everything’s being done by people who don’t want to be fired, most of them live in Redmond, Washington, and they all speak English because they’re all Americans. ”
Very untrue.
Windows boxes are generally easier to maintain because I can automate updates, I can automate tasks and I can install Software over the network compared to Linux, I have several Linux distributions to test for compatibility and with Linux I have to manually update everything because I have to build for each different distribution, its sort of like babysitting.
” Do you really need backup for this? Linux/UNIX boxes don’t get worms, spyware, viruses, etc. and can be locked down harder as well as more easily scripted. I think saying they require less maintanence isn’t very far fetched. ”
I dont get worms, viruses or spyware on any of my Windows machines, oh well, I do really wish someone could tell me what I am doing wrong because its unatural for me not to have a single virus when others, ussually Linux and Mac zealots, swear their Windows machines have more viruses than a New York brothel. Well lets just put it this way. Do you really think that if Linux was the mainstream OS, malware writers would go home and never write another virus ever? if you do i want some of what you are taking, people are not realistic at all.
Lets see Windows viruses are predominant lets see, whats the most widely used OS? Windows. What OS is mostly taight in colleges? Windows. What are 85 percent of students learning to develop with? Visual Studios and Windows. You dont see GCC, UNIX or any of the heavy development platforms until you get into graduate studies. Can worms and viruses be written for Linux? Yes. Can a virus be executed without user interaction? No.
People dont update as much as they should, you would be surprised how many shops I have seen that still run Windows NT 4 with Service Pack 3, Windows 2000 with Service Pack 2 and Windows XP with no service packs. Users have to keep themselves safe, its not Microsofts job to go around and hold everyones hand and say “Bobby its time to update.” Microsofts provides the tools, its up to the user to utilize those tools. Thats why I dont get the nasties that others do, Im always on top of it on both the Linux and the Windows side.
Some say complexity is securitys worst enemy, I dont think so. I say denial is securitys worst enemy. People who run Mac, Linux and UNIX think they are invincible and thats whats going to screw things up when the time comes. Mac, Linux and UNIX admins think, ” oh it cant happen to me ” Thats where i differ, I say sure it can happen to me but what can I do to prevent it from happening to me. Education, monitoring and locking things down is the key. I use Netscape 7.2 on all the machines at work. No one is allowed to get HTML formatted e-mails and my mail server has an antivirus solution for scanning mail, you would be surpried how many mail servers dont utilize anti-virus and that should be considered a crime. IE is blocked from every site on the net save 1. Windows Update. I only use IE on the inside for certain things that I can only use IE for.
Very interesting perspective.
I know the university *I* go to, you start using GCC in CS124. There is ONE class where you use Visual Studio, and actually, no, that’s not true. You’re required to program in .NET. This semester there’s a good number of people doing it in Mono.
I also know of similar experiences my friends have had at other universities.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that just because you were talking out your *** on one thing, you might not be exaggerating on some other things.
The Lone OSer: If you read these articles, it always appears that Microsoft is like a big child, “It’s always someone elses fault”. Maybe if they dropped that mentality and looked at how it could be THEIR fault things arn’t going to plan, maybe the entire computing world would be better off.
From my experience, that’s how alot of Windows techs, admins, etc act. (Not all, but alot)
Roberto J. Dohnert: Lets see Windows viruses are predominant lets see, whats the most widely used OS? Windows. What OS is mostly taight in colleges? Windows. What are 85 percent of students learning to develop with? Visual Studios and Windows. You dont see GCC, UNIX or any of the heavy development platforms until you get into graduate studies.
DataPath: I know the university *I* go to, you start using GCC in CS124. There is ONE class where you use Visual Studio, and actually, no, that’s not true. You’re required to program in .NET. This semester there’s a good number of people doing it in Mono.
I also know of similar experiences my friends have had at other universities.
Actually, it depends on the school. I’m not sure what the norm is, but at a number of colleges/universities I’ve seen people start out with Unix and gcc. However, at others pretty much all they do is Windows and Visual Studio. (Note this is for the “computer people”. For “non-computer people”, they seem to mostly use Windows.)
(BTW… I’m a student at one university, but I’ve taught at other places and I’ve tutored some people at yet other schools and I have some relatives who also teach.)
EVERY company who wants to make a proffit should charge as much as they can.
So you are basically saying that MS wouldn’t make a (huge) profit if they charged $50 for Windows and $99 for Office?
The difference between software and hardware is that software costs basically nothing to reproduce once it’s developed. Yet they charge as much as a hardware company would with the same development costs. That’s just pure greed.
They know that they have been charging imaginary prices for their software, and the only reason they’ve been able to do so is because of the lack of competition.
Now what will happend to a company that’s used to that kind of cashflow when suddenly they’ve got competition? They will be forced to lower their price, and when they lower their price the cashflow probably goes down with it, and that in the end would probably mean that they have to lay people off. Which obviously isn’t a good thing.
A sane person would try to run a stable company, not just try to earn as much money as possible before they ship sinks.
” I know the university *I* go to, you start using GCC in CS124. There is ONE class where you use Visual Studio, and actually, no, that’s not true. You’re required to program in .NET. This semester there’s a good number of people doing it in Mono.”
In most schools I have seen, Windows and Visual Studios are the norm.
Windows boxes are generally easier to maintain because I can automate updates, I can automate tasks and I can install Software over the network compared to Linux, I have several Linux distributions to test for compatibility and with Linux I have to manually update everything because I have to build for each different distribution, its sort of like babysitting.
Obviously you’re not “trained” or “experienced using Linux, darling. No honey, why don’t you first of all justify to this forum why on gods green earth you are running multiple versions of Linux? What you’re whining about is just as bad as a person whining about having HP-UX, Solaris and AIX in an organisation and having to test their scripts out on each one!
Choose a distribution, personal favourite is SuSE Enterprise Edition, however, you milage may vary. Standardise on ONE distribution, THEN automate updates using the tools provided, I know for definate that SuSE Enterprise Linux unde YaST there is an option for automatic download and update.
If you use Linux, standardise on Red Hat linux and use Red Hat Satellite, and deploy the updates via their tools.
There are tools out there darling, please use them and stop whining because you lack the education to properly utilise what is out there and have been used by *NIX administrators since God was a teenager.
In most schools I have seen, Windows and Visual Studios are the norm.
I don’t know what planet you’re on, but for a good part, the first part of learning C++ deals with console, it doesn’t really matter what compiler you use, as so long as it compiles ANSI C++, the advanced modules normally rely on Borland C++ Builder.
The *only* time Microsoft is even bought into the equation is teaching programming fundamentals, which used to be taught on Borland Pascal/Delphi, but is now taught using Visual Basic. Some universities, however have stuck to using Pascal/Delphi.
” Obviously you’re not “trained” or “experienced using Linux, darling. No honey, why don’t you first of all justify to this forum why on gods green earth you are running multiple versions of Linux? What you’re whining about is just as bad as a person whining about having HP-UX, Solaris and AIX in an organisation and having to test their scripts out on each one! ”
I develop software, I have to ensure compatibility between the distributions. I do have clients that run different distributions. Unlike the Windows world where I can run it on Windows Server 2003, Windows 2000 Server amd other versions of Windows.
” Choose a distribution, personal favourite is SuSE Enterprise Edition, however, you milage may vary. Standardise on ONE distribution, THEN automate updates using the tools provided, I know for definate that SuSE Enterprise Linux unde YaST there is an option for automatic download and update.
If you use Linux, standardise on Red Hat linux and use Red Hat Satellite, and deploy the updates via their tools.
There are tools out there darling, please use them and stop whining because you lack the education to properly utilise what is out there and have been used by *NIX administrators since God was a teenager. ”
Tell you what, when the community standardizes on a single distribution so will I. until that time I have to jump through hoops to ensure my red Hat customers can use my apps flawlessly, and I have to make sure my SuSE clients can run my apps flawlessly, and I have to make sure my Debian clients can run my apps flawlessly.
And just for your general information, I have been running Linux since 1994. Im sure I am more than qualified to run and administer Linux in all of its many distributions.
Microsoft “Netscaped” what a great idea, that would be the best thing that happened to computing.
Why doesn’t the world just accept Windows is crap.
It needs courage to stand up to a monopoly and start to pull it down.
If that is what Linux is doing then all I can say is well done anyone who has anything to do with Linux.
Well said. Obviously then sanity is in short supply in the ms ivory towers.
This post just states the obvious! Nobody in their right mind would run windows without taking these elementary common sense rules into consideration. Additionally you didn’t mention a Firewall. Additionally you don’t suggest that anyone downloading porn should be sacked without further ado. I have seen people downloading pictures that disgust me to the core and then happily emailing them around the company as if it is <normal>.
Something else makes me laugh. Ms and security. How many holes are found so far in ie? Worse than Swiss cheese man.
“I use Netscape 7.2 on all the machines at work. No one is allowed to get HTML formatted e-mails and my mail server has an antivirus solution for scanning mail, you would be surpried how many mail servers dont utilize anti-virus and that should be considered a crime. IE is blocked from every site on the net save 1. Windows Update. I only use IE on the inside for certain things that I can only use IE for.”
I develop software, I have to ensure compatibility between the distributions. I do have clients that run different distributions. Unlike the Windows world where I can run it on Windows Server 2003, Windows 2000 Server amd other versions of Windows.
Please my friend. You can run your app on what, Windows? And that’s it? I’ve hardly had a problem doing a ./configure, make, make install with any application I’ve ever downloaded on pretty much any system I’ve been on. And on Linux alone? Shoot…half the time it’s simply a matter of running yum, urpmi, or apt-get, or whatever.
Take an app like Gcc. That runs on Linux, OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD, OS X, Solaris, Sun OS, Irix, and whatever else I forgot to mention, and even Windows. I mean, my god, how many different architectures does Gcc run on? Something like 26, or 300 or something. And you can’t port your app from Windows to Linux? Hehe, or you can’t even write a Linux app you’re telling me?
And hold on there. You’re saying Windows is what they use in academics? I sure wouldn’t want to go to your school. Graduate studies? Man, in my undergrad courses I used apps like Gcc, Synopsis, Spim, Dinero, Flex, Bison, Python, Perl, Bash, Prolog, Latex, HLA, Ocaml, Scheme, etc. Heh, Windows, hehe, I forgot, we did use that. CS 10. For “Hello world!”
Tell you what, when the community standardizes on a single distribution so will I. until that time I have to jump through hoops to ensure my red Hat customers can use my apps flawlessly, and I have to make sure my SuSE clients can run my apps flawlessly, and I have to make sure my Debian clients can run my apps flawlessly.
Please, if your applications were so important in the enterprise world, you’d simply test it only on Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SuSE Enterprise Linux, and any other distribution, compile it and let the customer sort out the issues.
Enterprise customers don’t run Debian or Slackware unless they’re willing to take on the responsibility of maintanance, which believe you me, most businesses want to avoid the tediousness of maintaining software – something that isn’t a core business function.
Its the same everywhere else, you’ll have a SuSE Version, a Red Hat version, and one that is compiled but left up to the customer install and try to get working.
Ultimately, if the customers ARE bringing in the money AND covering the extra cost you’ve chosen to take onboard in regards to supporting every distro under the sun, why are you then complaining? you’re running a business, you’re customers want zyx, and I could understand if you were making a loss, but ultimately you’ve made the decision to support a large number of distros, that is a burden you have chosen to take on and you have no one else to blame when you find it frustrating.
The guy is an obvious troll / paid MS shill.
Firstly I highly doubt you develop anything.
Secondly as a recent graduate from a university in London (UK) I can say this.. 99% of our work was done on sun’s from the first year they teach you using the gnu tools, and probably 80%+ universities is the same.. Imperial college is a definate aswell. (ic.ac.uk you can tell they use suns same with UCL). So basically your talking out your ***.. We definately were not taught anything to do with .Net or visual studio. Most of the lecturers hated Windows.
Whats even more funny is that they have started converting most of the windows machines to Linux (redhat enterprise edition) It was quite funny indeed to see the network labs all having redhat on them. The technicians I was talking to were just plain relived to not have to deal with windows and patching they were ecstatic at the thought of the clients being turned to linux.. out of the maybe 30 labs most were sun thin clients (maybe 90%) The other 10% were windows labs of which 5% has probably already been converted to Linux. Sorry my friend but in educational establishments you tend to find pure loathing were Microsoft is concerned.
I read the forbes article as well. what a load of rubbish, I’ve not seen so much FUD in a long time, its quite funny.
http://www.forbes.com/2004/08/31/cz_dl_0831msft.html
This is what MS would love to have everyone believe…
How could “free” Linux cost more than Windows? First of all, Red Hat (nasdaq: RHAT – news – people ), the leading Linux distributor, now charges $799 to $2,499 for each server running Linux. That’s not for the software, mind you, but for “maintenance.” Semantics aside, you’re paying for Linux.
Yeah ok.. At the same time you can choose to use Suse or like many isps use debian and not pay a penny. Other than if you want to.
Add in the cost of retraining users and IT staff, rewriting applications to run on Linux, and the cost of paying separately for programs like application servers, Web servers and directories (which come bundled with Windows). You also may need to pay consultants to stitch the pieces together, and you might need to buy insurance to protect you against lawsuits over intellectual property rights. (One outfit hawks such policies for $150,000 yea
Paying seperately for programs like application servers, web servers and directories ? WTF ??? some one should pass the crack pipe along. Oh and how nice the “insurance” side gets pumped in (good work there with the SCO fiasco).. Wow if we take these factors in then there definately is no point. So much scare mongering its unreal. Why don’t they write the truth.. Hey theres about 10,000 apps in my debian repository and they are all free.. Maybe i’ve been imagining this I guess.
Stuff like this is just sickening to read, so much lies its unreal, makes you think about the tonnes of crap they had to feed newham to make em believe the crap, I wonder if they paid newham to use windows that would be funny.
Windows boxes are generally easier to maintain because I can automate updates
I can do that on Linux too. I can also update hundreds of Linux computer in 1 time. Apparently, you can’t. That’s your problem.
Anyway what is this “enterprise software” of you. May we have a link to a description of it? You have a website about it for sure, yes?
“Has Ballmer ever used Linux? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Has he ever used a BSD, ”
I thought windows uses BSD code, so yes, he uses it probably often….
Do you know ANYTHING about economics?
You don’t charge less for your software just for the hell of it (most of the time), you charge as much as you can while still having a large user base.
Let’s face it, the same number of people will buy Windows if it is $50 or $100
In most schools I have seen, Windows and Visual Studios are the norm.
1) How many schools have you seen?
2) What were their names?
3) In which country/state did each of these reside?
Thank you for answering.
This is what MS would love to have everyone believe…
How could “free” Linux cost more than Windows? First of all, Red Hat (nasdaq: RHAT – news – people ), the leading Linux distributor, now charges $799 to $2,499 for each server running Linux. That’s not for the software, mind you, but for “maintenance.” Semantics aside, you’re paying for Linux.
If this is not true, then Red Hat became profitable doing what?
So, if people want to pay for Linux, they are doing it why?
So, if they are paying for Linux, what would stop them from comparing their Linux fees with what they are paying for Windows?
So, if other people can do it, why Ballmer can’t?
What you have, Dopey, is IBM/Oracle/RedHat/SuSe giving free Linux software to students and housewives to make them hooked. When they come to work, same companies happy to charge money from businesses.
Microsoft does the same with very big discounts for schools and colleges.
It is strictly business, not a religion. A business in which RedHat can give away Fedora for free- even while paying developers to work on it.
So, you get free goodies but not because IBM loves you or Red Hat is a commie corporation. No, because they want you to make a business you work in pay them $1,500 for RHAS and $14,000 for Linux on mainframe, every year.
I am, actually, looking forward for Red Flag to get to the USA market and start offering Oracle certified Red Flag distro for something like $200/year.
That will be really great savings for my company which is forced to pay Red Hat and Oracle.
You pay for the support contract, not for a software license. Hardto grok that, ehh..?
First I think that anyone can charge any price for any products as long as its not a life saving product. Windows is not life saving.
If you don’t agree with that then fine, then go to the local shoping mall and destroy all bottles of french parfum and creme. And while you are at it go to the clothing department and burn any brand clothing you find. Like perfume, creme, clothing and cars no one is forcing (by gun point or will you starve or die) to use a particulair brand or MS Windows.
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Next I think MS is spreading a little FUD here about the evil communist terrorist group called Linux. Really its just the fact that the pc market is getting saturated and MS has not released a desktop OS since 2001/2002 that slowed down it sells. As at this moment GNU/Linux is as big threat as Apple/OSX is. So I think its kinda of ridiculous to blame Linux for all their woes.
They just have some really bad business practices as they are not able to upgrade their OS as Apple is and at the same rate. Does Apple go whining about Linux? No its just improves, so MS should shut up and hire away some Apple project managers
. But that will not change the business enverioment of MS and those PM’s will just be infected with the same infection as everyone else in Redmond suffers from (it seems).
Look at the desktop OS market. Who is whinning and who’s improving? MS whines and Apple and Linux are improving
Look at the server market, who’s whining? MS is and all the *nix players or doing whats needed and Apple is trying to get a piece of the pie without whining.
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Why such a reaction? Well I fear that MS will lobby in Washington DC and will confise some people that open source is evil and the IT recession is caused by open source and it must be outlawed. I’m at all not anti-corporate but I think that Linux is a good thing for the x86 machines as it was soley dominated by Windows OS. Maybe this will get MS of its big fat ass and we will see some good things coming out of redmond.
You pay for the support contract, not for a software license.
You should read “1984.” Very educational.
A business should compare Red Hat fees with Microsoft fees, whatever names are attached to them.
Red Hat did not become profitable by letting businesses use their software with no fees attached.
You should read “1984.” Very educational.
I suggest you read “logic and fallacies”. Very educational (and not meant for kiddo’s).
A business should compare Red Hat fees with Microsoft fees, whatever names are attached to them.
Going a lil bit in depth is too hard, uhh? A person should define how the business earns money. With MS, its 3rd party support + software license. With RedHat, its merely support. Not the software. You claim otherwise, you spread misinformation. I debunk it. Simple as that.
Red Hat did not become profitable by letting businesses use their software with no fees attached.
Indeed. Red Hat became profitable by selling support contracts. Keep moving, we’re getting there!
” Please, if your applications were so important in the enterprise world, you’d simply test it only on Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SuSE Enterprise Linux, and any other distribution, compile it and let the customer sort out the issues. ”
I didnt say my applications were important in the enterprise world. they are however important to my customers and clients. i get to sleep well at night because I take care of my customers. they hire me and my company to keep their problems at a minimal and thats what I do, I dontr abandon anyone. When the NMap guys cut support and pulled the binary off the market for openServer and UnixWare because of SCO, I made a build available for these people running thos Operating Systems and not merely to spit in the face of the Linux community, but because SCO’s customer base is not to blame for SCO’s actions so why single them out. Just like if they cut support for the Win32 platform I would pick it up. If everyone in the Linux community lived by your rules its no wonder alot of the Open Source offerings are half baked.
” Ultimately, if the customers ARE bringing in the money AND covering the extra cost you’ve chosen to take onboard in regards to supporting every distro under the sun, why are you then complaining? you’re running a business, you’re customers want zyx, and I could understand if you were making a loss, but ultimately you’ve made the decision to support a large number of distros, that is a burden you have chosen to take on and you have no one else to blame when you find it frustrating. ”
I am not complaining at all, I am just saying that the lack of standard tools for all the Linux distributions make automating updates harder. I dont mind doing my job and I have no problems with Linux or BSD, I just made the comment that I found Windows machines generally easier to update and i still do. i dont care what people use, I will use what I want to use you go ahead and use what you wish. Furthermore, i like doing things for my customers. they pay my salary, they feed my kids, they put my kids through school and if I have to jump through hoops to keep them happy I will. Thats how come my client retention is so high, my customers and clients know they can count on me, if i cant solve a specific problem they are having they know I will try like hell to get things right for them.
” The guy is an obvious troll / paid MS shill.”
Actually I dont get paid by MS and believe it or not I know what I am saying to be right. Thats how come you and others like you will be the ones most severely effected when a major exploit in Linux is utilized.
” Firstly I highly doubt you develop anything. ”
Like I really care, I will think about you this Friday when I go to the bank to cash my paycheck. Sticks and stones brother.
” Secondly as a recent graduate from a university in London (UK) I can say this.. 99% of our work was done on sun’s from the first year they teach you using the gnu tools, and probably 80%+ universities is the same.. Imperial college is a definate aswell. (ic.ac.uk you can tell they use suns same with UCL). So basically your talking out your ***.. We definately were not taught anything to do with .Net or visual studio. Most of the lecturers hated Windows. ”
And thats how come most of your lecturers were not any good. I hate Mac, I loathe Apple and the Macintosh but you know what. I can use the Mac and I do give lectures to an OS Basics class that a friend of mine teaches, come to think of it I also do the Linux section for her. I can only go by what I know and What I experience. Personally I think you are full of crap but we wont dwell on that.
” Whats even more funny is that they have started converting most of the windows machines to Linux (redhat enterprise edition) It was quite funny indeed to see the network labs all having redhat on them. The technicians I was talking to were just plain relived to not have to deal with windows and patching they were ecstatic at the thought of the clients being turned to linux.. out of the maybe 30 labs most were sun thin clients (maybe 90%) The other 10% were windows labs of which 5% has probably already been converted to Linux. Sorry my friend but in educational establishments you tend to find pure loathing were Microsoft is concerned. ”
Tht may be in London and I dont care what they do out there. i was in London 1 time and I hated that city but thats another story for another time. Your comment ” Sorry my friend but in educational establishments you tend to find pure loathing were Microsoft is concerned. ” is blinded by your personal bias. I know a professor at Duke university, a personal friend of my grandfathers who they used to play poker every Saturday night before he passed, that love Microsoft and Microsofts products, and he thinks very highly of .NET. Thats not personal bias from me thats a stone fact. As for the rest of your comment to me it was just the regular anti-MS drivel I hear all over the web by Linux guys and not worth commenting on.
If anyone else wishes to discuss this with me send me an e-mail as I wont comment on this forum anymoreon this issue as not to start a flamewar. I can tell the new e-mails along with the old ones are going to be of the “You’re ugly” quality.
If everyone in the Linux community lived by your rules its no wonder alot of the Open Source offerings are half baked.
And thats how come most of your lecturers were not any good. I hate Mac,
Tht may be in London and I dont care what they do out there. i was in London 1 time and I hated that city but thats another story for another time.
I know a professor at Duke university, a personal friend of my grandfathers who they used to play poker every Saturday night before he passed, that love Microsoft and Microsofts products, and he thinks very highly of .NET.
What a load of inane drivel. Hope you support your “customers” better than you support your arguments.
Cheers
rob
The facts are that the computer world is boring to most people. The assholes write their viruses for Windows. Ordinary people get pissed off with viruses and worms and so forth, they look for vialble alternatives – they have 2 superb choices Linux and Mac.
So the writer of “Only a Linux faggots wet dreams with his lover”, is a real idiot, with blinkers on. But it is these sorts of mental twats that love windows – I wonder why?
Don’t have the guts to try something new, or even learn that Windows is actually a very part of a very small computerised world. Anyone know how many people do not have a home computer in the world or what the percentage is between people with a home computer and those without?
You don’t need brains anymore to install Linux, OSX or windows.
Anonymous “Microsoft: Linux may mean Windows price cuts, fewer sales” – get a fucking life and grow up in the real world man.
as Linux continues to steal business
Excellent. Microsoft is the only company who rightfully sells operating systems. And now those illegal open source criminals come along and steal their market.
Microsoft should really reconsider their position towards competition and free market if they want to survive in the long run. Because “Linux continues to steal business” sounds quite scox-like.
With RedHat, its merely support. Not the software. You claim otherwise, you spread misinformation.
I said that Linux fees can and should be compared to Microsoft Windows fees.
I never said that Red Hat sells software. THis is you who spreads misinformation.
I debunk it. Simple as that.
Not so simple. Red Hat sells entitlements, to be precise. Because English is not my first language, I would like to ask you to explain what “entitlement” is.
I am not the lawyer and not zealot, so I just said fees.
Very simple: if company is forced to pay Red Hat X dollars for the priviledge or running Linux and Microsoft Y dollars for the priviledge to run Windows, X and Y can and should be compared.
If you can show how to reduce X and make it close to 0, or just how to make X much less than Y- good for you, you sold Linux to a business.
That does not change the fact that you compare X to Y, I do, so let Steve do that too if it pleases him so much.
After all, even Red Hat CEO says that Linux is free (of charge) only if your time worth nothing. Meaning: there is Y amount of dollars attached to running Linux in business.
I would rather believe Red Hat CEO in that.
“Windows boxes are generally easier to maintain because I can automate updates, I can automate tasks and I can install Software over the network compared to Linux, I have several Linux distributions to test for compatibility and with Linux I have to manually update everything because I have to build for each different distribution, its sort of like babysitting.”
Did you hear about cron to task automation in linux/unix ? And about apt-get, yum, urpmi to update packages ?
You can also use a NFS-shared partition containing all the programs to not have to install applications on all machines.
Why use several linux distributions ? Any experienced linux admin would try to use a single distribution to standardize your machines.
some anecdotal evidence
At the university i work at, we gather statistics of use of the software provided in linux/unix/windows/mac platforms to justify purchasing licenses etc.
in the computer science department (you can choose to develop in any tool you want) the increase of use in Visual Studio is amazing compared to years before. Now, only a few researchers are using the mostly iddle unix/linux machines compared to a few years ago when there was a lot of students taxing the machines with their programming assignments and research.