“SkyOS is aimed at the desktop user, the SkyOS team has always stated that SkyOS 5.0 is aimed at the desktop user, but what is a desktop user? In my opinion a desktop user is someone who doesn’t know how the kernel interacts with the graphical interface or how the kernel loads modules. The average desktop user is just that… Average.” Read the rest of this editoral here.
Overview: Where Does SkyOS Fit?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I know there are other shells for Windows. Tried that myself. However, are they supported by Microsoft? Will Microsoft help you with a problem with Office (or the filesystem), once they find out you are not using the default shell? Therefore I asked about supported ways of changing the shell.
On changing a WM in Linux being a hell – either get your head out of the sand, or try to be open to facts and opinions of the other side, when having a discussion. To change the wm from my graphical login (I expect this would be the situation for the “home” users), I click session, choose e.g. xfce4, click OK, login as usual, answer a question whether I want this change to be permanent and voila – I have just changed the wm. On computers with without a graphical login I would edit just one file. (I can see it now.. “Oh! Edit! A file! How unfriendly!”.
That sure does not represent hell. If you had hell-like experience, please elaborate, or don’t use such strong words.
On Zeta being themeable. OK, nice for them, but that is not the same as being able to change the WM. Themeable equals (in general, bear with me) to exchanging the bitmaps but keeping the behaviour. When I change the WM, I get new behaviour (taskbar vs. no taskbar ; mouse wheel switches the desktops or not ; one huge 10000×10000 desktop or a number of desktops of the size of my native resolution ; etc).
“I click session, choose e.g. xfce4, click OK, login as usual”
i think thom means installing a new DE, installing KDE via RPM on SuSE is a pain, i hear you say SuSE already comes with KDE, yes but usually the SuSE version is out of date, so i go to the KDE.org site and download the SuSE RPM’s and the pain appears when trying to figure out what order to install them, in there maybe a tool that does this for you, im not sure but it took me a while to figure out what order the RPM’s are to be installed in.
That one was one to many.I’m in no way biased towards these. […] defensive blaat […]
Read -> Comprehend -> Relax -> Post.
I wrote tend to show. I didn’t wrote you are biased that way. In any case if i did meant that, it’d be an opinion. It was a hypothesis to make a point though.
You make claims about SkyOS without having actually used it. […] MorphOS analogue […]
I read a lot about MorphOS and know one of the developers pretty good. We’ve had great discussions, and he knows more often than not what he’s talking about. Because of this, i also know some insider aspects about the future which i’d define as positive and interesting although i don’t see some kind of revolution happening where MorphOS leaves its geek-status. After i verified such information i don’t need some kind of experience myself to know the border between truth and fiction / misinformation.
Also, the fact there is nu such thing as Cygwin or WINE surely doesn’t look bright for SkyOS. It’s the applications which matter, stupid. As a result, i don’t see how SkyOS will leave its toy-status / geek-status anytime Soon. Users want to run e.g. Photoshop, Doom3, Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, you see? Without that, no go. Another point to consider which i’ve already made earlier is that it has to be severely better, while the negative aspects need to be small for the users. Being about as good, or as good just doesn’t make it these days.
@ distantvoices, thanks.
“I’d say you people here draw some arrogance at least as well, capitalizing the hard work of free software / open source GUI and CLI applications in your hobby OS whereas stating such strong arguments against these same prgorams being part of that very so-called Linux desktop.”
“Stating the GPL is not constitutional but at the same time using it. Ain’t that contradicting and funny? To me it certainly is although the reason for it being this way is pretty obvious in the cases here.”
I never once said anything about the GPL. I do not have a problem with it. I also do not have a problem with open source software. So please do not put words in my mouth. We use the OSS programs we do (Abiword, Gimp, Gaim, others) because they are good programs, and do a good job at what their authors intended them to do. I do not see Linux performing as a desktop OS anywhere near as well as Abiword does as a word processor, Gaim does as an IM client, or Gimp does as an image editor. Now, Linux being OSS may inherently be something that causes its problems, such as with extremely slow development in regards to being a desktop OS. It doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with OSS, just that it isn’t working efficiently to make Linux a desktop operating system for the average user (my opinion, of course).
I never said one disparaging thing about open source, or the GPL, so please do not say that I did. You’re making arguments up in your head.
“Also, the fact there is nu such thing as Cygwin or WINE surely doesn’t look bright for SkyOS. It’s the applications which matter, stupid. As a result, i don’t see how SkyOS will leave its toy-status / geek-status anytime Soon. Users want to run e.g. Photoshop, Doom3, Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, you see? Without that, no go. Another point to consider which i’ve already made earlier is that it has to be severely better, while the negative aspects need to be small for the users. Being about as good, or as good just doesn’t make it these days.”
You are aware that you never responded to Thom saying you’ve never used SkyOS, right?
We’ve chosen not to port WINE. Had we decided to, it would have been done quite some time ago. We wish to encourage developers to develop natively for SkyOS, rather than trying to emulate Windows applications, something that WINE only does spottily, at best.
“Also, the fact there is nu such thing as Cygwin…”
You should think about taking a look at our latest news post.
From SkyOS.org
“Additionally, there is also a cygwin->SkyOS cross compiler collection available.”
dpi, again you show large signs of disrespect by calling me an idiot. I expect a whole lot more from someone (who at least appears to be) from The Netherlands.
Now, you can cover up your ignorance, mis-information and arrogance by using your research blah and “I’m a programmer and have inside knowledge” crap, but you are only making a big idiot out of yourself. Go step into the real world. Linux ain’t lbiss, OSS ain’t bliss, you ain’t perfect, and no one cares about your research, it doesn’t make or break a product.
I asked you to join the beta program and join SkyOS. I wish to retract that statement. By all means, stay away from SkyOS. Please, stay away.
On the other hand, seeing you are not interested in anything other than OSS/Linux, I pobably won’t have to be afraid to see you join SkyOS.
If hell == installing software on Linux, this has been discussed already too much here. And you have to download the new shell for Windows as well.
Anyway, once again.
Scenario one:
* start synaptic
* search for xfce
* select xfce
* click install
Scenario two:
* find correct install.exe on web
* download install.exe from web
* click on install.exe
I don’t see a significant difference between those two scenarios. You probably can’t do scenario one in Suse, but that’s a problem of Suse, not of Linux in general.
On every Linux installation and with almost every software, you can do “./configure ; make ; make install”. OK, now some will object this is “too hard”. Then let me ask:
How is typing “install.exe” harder then clicking on “install.exe”?
How is typing “./configure ; make ; make install” harder than typing “install.exe” ?
How is typing into a black window with white characters harder then typing into the form, into which you are typing your answer now?
“How is typing into a black window with white characters harder then typing into the form, into which you are typing your answer now?”
And this is what is inherently wrong with the Linux community at large. The personal-computer did not really take off until the paradigm shifted away from “typing into a black window”, and rather to clicking on graphical representations of things.
Compare:
“./configure ; make ; make install”
with double-clicking a picture.
The problem is, the Linux community does not think this is hard, which it probably is not for them. But for the average user, this is hard. And until the Linux community is willing to listen to this, as well as the other things that make Linux hard for the average user, Linux will stay a “nerd” desktop.
Hopefully you weren’t missing any dependencies with that Linux software installation as well.
i said installing a DE was hard, and yeah SuSE should really include something like Apt-Get with YaST, to simplify software installing, i personally compile tar-balls for my SuSE install alot. you say typing:
./configure ; make ; make install
is no harder than typing or click “install.exe”
in my opinion the linux way is more difficult, what happens if theres a dependancy problem? also how many home users are willing to wait 10mins or more for an application like WINE to compile and install? id hazard a guess at not many.
Dependency problems could be solved by extending the ./configure script. For example, the ./configure for silc-client does that. It checks whether glib is present. If not, it just downloads it and compiles it.
The time of compilation can be an unpleasant thing. I accept that. Waiting, however, is not “hard” or “hell”. Optimally, you would not need to compile any applications, as all would be present in the central repository. For the great majority of applications, this is true for example for Debian and Gentoo. If I ever missed one application there, it sure was not one for the “home desktop user”.
And this is what is inherently wrong with the Linux community at large. The personal-computer did not really take off until the paradigm shifted away from “typing into a black window”, and rather to clicking on graphical representations of things.[i]
4 lines of hot air and no answer to my question, which was:
[i]How is typing into a black window with white characters harder then typing into the form, into which you are typing your answer now?
If you type while using your computer, how can typing to maintain it be at once a hard thing?
Maybe you should get off you “teh linux suxors” horse and try to have a discussion. If you re-read my posts, I am not critizing your favorite OS, just defending my three desktop Linux computers, and the desktop Linux computers of my friends, of which not all are techies. They include 2 medical students, a pedagogics student (incidentally, all female) and they use linux as their only OS with no problems.
Back to technical issues…
When the first PC appeared in our home, more than 10 years ago, it booted to DOS and that was the norm at that time. People worked with such computers without problems. The PC really took off, when numerous companies produced compatible computers which used the same OS and applications. No matter from who you bought your PC, dbase IV or wordperfect (or chiwriter
would run on it. It had nothing to do with GUIs, though I accepts GUIs helped the popularity of the PC. They just did not start it.
[i]with double-clicking a picture.[i]
Pictures often suck. Words are often much more clearer. I often can’t understand, what the artist meant with a picture.
Also (don’t take this too serious), I rather keep both of my hands on the keyboard, then to take the right hand off the keyboard, grab the mouse, move the mouse, click, move the hand back…
🙁
Also (don’t take this too serious), I rather keep both of my hands on the keyboard, then to take the right hand off the keyboard, grab the mouse, move the mouse, click, move the hand back…
Home users are most likely to have one hand on the mouse, and the other somewhere else. Now, the home user also doesn’t like putting both hands on the keyboard in a terminal– a terminal? What’s that? They have no idea.
I give up. If you never really respond to my questions and explanations, this discussion is going nowhere. Had you really read my posts, you would see that even I consider the manual compilation of software as the last fall-back for installation.
I conclude my presence in this thread by the claim that Linux IS usable as a desktop OS. For supporting _facts_, not feelings, see my previous posts.
I asked you to join the beta program and join SkyOS. I wish to retract that statement. By all means, stay away from SkyOS. Please, stay away.
Thom, FYI, i really don’t care if you want me to be a beta tester or not. I don’t have time for it, i don’t want to test out your software, and i don’t have x86 hardware for such toying available. I also don’t are wether you’re from Armenistan, Timboektoe, or the Netherlands.
We wish to encourage developers to develop natively for SkyOS, rather than trying to emulate Windows applications, something that WINE only does spottily, at best.
How are you doing that?
Do you seriously think anyone will care to port their applications over to SkyOS? Their _proprietary_ applications? It just ain’t gonna happen, at least not the next few years.
If you’d have read the winehq.org website and read the paragraph where it is stated “Why does WINE exist” you’d also understand why there is a need for WINE. Or do you disagree with it? If you haven’t read it then whatever your opinion is i suggest you do check it out because its a fine piece of ratio.
“./configure ; make ; make install”
with double-clicking a picture.
Apples & oranges; you are comparing a source compile without any package tools to a binary solution. A user-friendly distribution has all the popular software with it, by package management. The changes this is necessary for an ordinary user are slim. Welcome to 2004.
Before all kind of bullshit enters, no, an ordinary users doesn’t care for KDE 3.3 being available 2 hours and 20 minutes alrteady while there isn’t a binary package available. You, the geek, cares — but you’re an minority. She just wants to keep the computer running as-is, stable, with the features she has. Ordinary users aren’t surfing on the Internet to see wether some new kind of version of their software is available (and in general not for some new kind of OS either).
Perhaps you people would actually understand the issue when you only understood why Linux isn’t so much adopted in the home user environments. Speed really ain’t one of those reasons. Politics ain’t either. It’s the lack for desire for change and the applications which don’t run; the Windows applications.
I now realize the point of these articles on OSNEws!
They generate FLAME WARS! Thats the whole reason for this article! So we can all be entertained by “Linux Zealots vs. Kelly of SkyOS”.
No offense, but I’m just curious as to which non-tech-savvy users are ever going to install a new OS? If you ask alot of them what type of computer they have, they’ll reply with “Windows XP”.
This is not the type of person who will go onto google, look up skyos, buy it, and install it. This is not the type of person who would like to re-learn an OS either, even if re-learning simply means figuring out the differences in the names of applications.
To get newbie users to use a different OS usually relies upon a tech-savvy relative/friend telling them about it, or having the OS included with OEMs. The latter only usually happens if tech-savvy OS installing users like the OS and use it, because otherwise companies will find it too unpopular to bother with. Both of these therefore rely on tech-savvy folks using SkyOS, and since most of them would choose Linux, Syllable, or one of the other alternatives over SkyOS, I don’t see it happening.
I do like SkyOS though, and would love for it to some how become a great success. The odds seem stacked against it though, and even myself would rather use other OS’s (Windows for gaming and some productivity, Linux for productivity and minor gaming, possibly Syllable and ReactOS as these two progress)
We intend on making computers with SkyOS pre-installed available via our online store, in addition to simply purchasing the operating system.
Hey people, Apt for SuSE *does* exist:
http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/
It is not officially supported by SuSE but it works fine nonetheless.
“Hey people, Apt for SuSE *does* exist:
http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/“
thanx ill d’load that right away.
Dunno if anyone will read this, but what the heck:
I’m with Kelly and Thom on this. Linux *is* difficult to *install* and *configure*.
Sure, things are just peachy if all your hardware is supported, but what if it isn’t? Then what?
Case in (direct) point: Laptop modems.
I’ve always considered the true test of an alt-OS is how well it handles laptop hardware.
I do IT work for ~10,000 clients, and as such, I’ve had access to a vast number of laptops and other hardware. I’ve tried again and again to get Linux (pick a distro, any distro, I’ve tried them all) to run 100% on a laptop.
I’ll tell you, I’ve had more success with BeOS on one than any current distro of Linux. (For those that read it, I’ve posted numerous articles in the forums of ArsTechnica, regarding my troubles with Linux)
Personally I’m looking forward to joining the SkyOS team, if for no other reason than to give them access to lots of hardware, and see what works/doesn’t work.
Should be a fun OS to try.
Note: I’m a hardcore BeOS user, been using it 100% since I discovered 4.5 in a bookstore.