Haiku (OpenBeOS)’s third birthday was a few days ago. While some BeOS parts have been successfully re-implemented so far, these were mostly the ‘trivial’ parts: screensaver kit, printing kit etc. Read more for a mini-editorial.The meat of the matter, the app_server, the interface kit etc, are still pre-pre-alpha. Even the kernel used is NewOS’ kernel, it was not created from scratch by the dev team. However, the filesystem, OpenBFS, was created from scratch, mostly by one of the 2-3 very active and very knowledgable Haiku devs, Axel Dörfler. But the rest of the team seems to lark, and in three years they still haven’t reached a user-usable operating system status (despite the fact that they had to re-implement a documented API instead of inventing it, and despite the fact that the kernel was pretty much ready-made). AtheOS, SkyOS had something usable by a three-years time, and remember, they only employed 1 developer each.
The reason I write all this is because I had enough of people being unhappy everytime I would write that “it took 60 full time Be engineers 10 years to bring BeOS to the BeOS 5 level, do you think that a team of 4-5 devs (the rest volunteers can’t help much, not enough system software knowledge) can do it in 2-3 years in their spare time?” But the fanatics, prefer to only think what they want to think. Whatever suits their beliefs. Instead of embracing YellowTAB’s Zeta OS (which is 100% BeOS, and it IS fully working today — not in 10 years from now), they make it a Zeta Vs Haiku war on each opportunity. This is just silly. Yes, I don’t like Zeta’s questionable legal status either, but when it comes to “whatever works to do my daily job”, Zeta works today, Haiku doesn’t and won’t, for many more years. Make no mistake, I don’t take YellowTAB’s side, as I don’t believe that YellowTAB has a bright market future either, but at least they have something to show, today!
I find it absolutely laughable when BeOS users say “oh, well, Zeta looks ok, but I will wait for Haiku”. So, they prefer to financially crucify a company that offers them today a solution (not a perfect solution by any means, but a usable BeOS solution nontheless), instead of showing their support for *BeOS*. To me, these people are not BeOS users. They are simply “OS-curious”. Once, they had some nice experience with BeOS 5 Free edition, but since then, they have moved on to other OSes. And when a company is serving them the next generation of BeOS, they simply, don’t wanna pay, but they “prefer to wait” years after years for a “free” solution (that might never come). That’s not what I call a “BeOS users, who care about BeOS”. I call it a “user who have been impressed by BeOS once, but he doesn’t care enough anymore”.
And that’s the real death of BeOS. Most people don’t care anymore (and why should they? No one wants to support an OS that sees official OS updates). And if Haiku is “ready” by 2010, no one will care. Too little, too late. What’s the point re-implementing BeOS in a way to even have binary compatibility and targetting the functionality of BeOS 5, when by 2010 Longhorn 2, Mac OS X 12 and a more mature Linux will be available offering out-of-this-world features?
You could always argue that Haiku is just like AtheOS and SkyOS or MenuetOS: a hobby OS, created out of love of studying OS technologies. I am sorry again, but Haiku never had such goals. Haiku is not an experiment, like AtheOS was. Haiku was created with the direct target of replacing BeOS 5 by creating an exact clone of it in order to accomodate the thousands of fleed BeOS users after the demise of Be.
If Haiku was able to release this exact clone one year ago (fully stable that is), they would have a good chance of me calling them “successful” to their goal (and then set their roadmap on catching up with OSX or Longhorn). But even if they release that Haiku 1.0 tomorrow morning, it’s already too late. Haiku does not have the luxury of time anymore (realistically speaking) to achieve its own goals. To my mind, it’s a failure.
Haiku needs to move on, it needs to re-set its goals, simply because its current goal, has already failed through market irrelevance. Timing was important for that goal, and now it’s just too late trying to “sell” a BeOS 5-alike OS to the world. I would suggest creating an OS that tries to innovate and competes with future/modern OSes, while keeping its BeOS roots and code, but not by copying Be’s mistakes and the irrelevant, right now, overall BeOS experience one could get out of a BeOS 5+.
— Eugenia
Since I have never commented on BeOS/Haiku in the past (except to say “I’m getting involved!” above), here’s my take on all this:
1) I am a realist (and often a pessimest), but as long as a starry-eyed dream is achievable, no matter how long it takes, I’m all for it. Who cares if it takes 20 years to finish Haiku – I blinked this morning and realized that 41 years of my life went by even faster than that. Haiku 1.0 will be here before you know it, and it will be pure object oriented joy. Even if it won’t be finished until my grandchildren are old enough to use it, fine! When they do start using it, they’ll be using a system that runs without restrictions and is as fast, extensible and usable as humanly possible. It took us 10 years to get to the moon against overwhelming odds and I am still amazed to see pictures of man walking around up there. Haiku is daunting, but then, so were the moon missions. We could have settled for moon orbit, but that would have been a disappointment, and we wouldn’t have learned as much (or enjoyed it as much). Remember that “The Journey is the Reward” thingy…?
2) We can multiboot. We can use VMWare (or some equivalent). We can coexist until the deed is done. No one needs to give up Windows (or Linux) before Haiku is done. Use Windows, but gird up for a future coup! If Windows refuses to work with multiboot setups in the future, use an old computer to run Haiku and a new one for Windows – such drama!
3) Haiku does not have to contain all of the functionality that Windows does, but it will only succeed if it presents a better user experience while doing what it *can* do. Even if Haiku can do 85% of what Windows does, it will fail unless the Haiku developers can find a way to avoid “DLL Hell”, find a way to prevent security holes before they open, and find a flawless way for end-users to find out the *REAL* reason why an application crashed or isn’t working right. We have to set these goals for Haiku.
4) I think a top goal for Haiku R1 is to write a “wrapper driver” that allows Linux or Windows device drivers to be used for slower peripherals (i.e., anything but the monitor). I know it’s possible because I’ve seen articles about similar efforts for other OS’s (unless I’m mistaken). Someone who really knows Windows driver development needs to step forward and tackle this ASAP. Yes, the drivers will be slow, but having drivers that work with modern hardware is crucial. With the resulting user base (and some donated “bribe” money), we’ll get the vendors on our side.
5) I also don’t think Haiku R1 needs to be binary compatible. If we keep Adamation, Gobe et. al. well informed along the way (and set realistic goals), it shouldn’t be too hard to convince them to stick around and step forward when the time is right. Perhaps we should assign someone the fulltime job of keeping track of these vendors so we can contact them when the time is right? In the meantime, we can recompile the source that’s available to us and write all sorts of new and interesting stuff for Haiku!
6) I don’t like Linux. I can’t see how it is any better than Windows (sorry, “It’s not Microsoft” doesn’t cut it), and giving it WiFi, BlueTooth and the Tooth Fairy won’t redeem it. If they eliminate all the problems today that make it unusable for Average Joe Consumer, it would be ok, but why not put that effort into something that is “clean and sober” from the start, without any past baggage? Why not Syllable/SkyOS/etc.? BeOS/Haiku is much better known, has no Linux baggage and far more people are using it TODAY than are using all the other non-Linux alternatives out there combined (discounting embedded systems, of course).
I am guilty of sitting by the wayside and doing nothing with BeOS, but I’m stepping forward now (despite the fact that I have no more free time than I did in the past), and I want to know who’s with me?
— Bob Schnatterly
Good points in General. Just to note there are some reasons against driver wrappers (Lars/Soulbender has stronger views on this than me though). Namely we’ll *never* get vendor support for real drivers, they’ll just tell us to use the Windows drivers. Which will only work on x86, as they’ll be x86 drivers…
Also, Adamation are Dead, basically. Doubt theres any chance of getting their apps recompiled. Considering the other video editor that actually made it “out there”, Titan, is currently being opensourced, it may not be needed anyway – we already have god knows how many mail clients, Adam being their other app.
Beatware on the other hand…. exist, and could be convinced. But again, we have those apps repeated (mail/ftp/text editor/image editor. “their” spreadsheet is opensource)
Gobe, ahem… Lets not go there.
Other than that, good post. I’m “getting involved” to a higher stage. The bitchiness here has spurred me back onto my driver development list.
Until the kernel boots and runs all of the servers, or at the very least the app_server, Haiku is vaporware.
The rest of the stuff is just replacement parts for BeOS. Kind of like buying aftermarket upgrades for an old Chevy – you need the original framework for them to be useful. Until Haiku can do that, replacement parts for a dead OS is all they have.
I’m not so doubtful about getting vendor support once the crescendo of voices from an ever-expanding user base begins to assault them, but for the sake of argument, let’s say you’re right. Let’s commit 90% of all money collected to support driver developers. The rest of the developers will do it out of sheer, unmitigated devotion! I used to own an Atari 800xl and an Amiga 500 and I’m tired of seeing my favorite (computer-related) pasttimes go by the wayside. This is only software – we can make it work! If we refuse to give up no matter how “suhweet” Windows looks (i.e., become the unstoppable force against the seemingly-immovable Windows), we’ll achieve our goals. Linux has Microsoft running, so it’s a good time to start hitting them from the other side. I’ve made up my mind, so don’t bother dissuading me ’cause I ain’t changing it!
Until the kernel boots and runs all of the servers, or at the very least the app_server, Haiku is vaporware.
That means any project that has not been “officially” released, but marketed, is vaporware. Longhorn comes to mind, as well as OS X 10.4. These are products that are still being developed and tested, much like Haiku.
Please pick one exception from vaporware. Is it going to be all servers, or just the app_server. I have tested very early prototypes of the app_server some time ago, so it is working, just not final quality.
When OBOS formed, they clearly stated their intention was to recreate BeOS one-module-at-a-time. They are clearly doing this, and you can actually help them by testing. Sure the kernel and app_server are still a work-in-progress, but so was the Translation kit and Game kit, and these are well into development. Heck, you can actually use them, although they are still in some form of development (testing) like Longhorn.
I have seen many vaporware products come and go, and I cannot watch someone call an actively developed product vaporware without at least speaking up. Unlike commercial ventures, this is open source, and you can personally evaluate what is being done.
Side Note : I have switched from BeOS to MacOS X some time ago, but still have the PII-300MHz beast [ 😉 ] sitting around. All it needs is a new monitor and some electricity. Thank you Eugenia for the article, it has made me want to get her back running, and start testing the Haiku components again!
Kind regards.
UPDATE
Please pick one exception from vaporware. Is it going to be all servers, or just the app_server. I have tested very early prototypes of the app_server some time ago, so it is working, just not final quality.
This was a very early build, and I should have mentioned this in my first post. It may have even been the prototype stage. I wanted to make sure I stated this, and I apologize for missing it the first time around.
Lars wrote:
Ever noticed how all those “big” projects, ie Apache, XFree, Perl, Python, Sendmail etc, isnt under the GPL or LGPL?
The Haiku license is decided, it’s BSD/MIT, it wont change. There’s no point in arguing for or against this choice. If this is such a big issue then tough luck, I guess the Haiku project isn’t for you.
Ah, but here’s the distinction: those projects you mention are all used by experts. Their “clients” are clued-in, and they choose what software they use wisely.
There’s no “mass appeal” effect with Sendmail. You don’t see Sendmail box sets flying off the shelves at Walmart.
If OBOS/Haiku ever gets to R1 (which I think will be long road, given their choice of license), it could really take off with the general public (those folks at Walmart). That’s just when the greedy marketdroids are most happy that you chose MIT over GPL. With MIT, they can just grab up your code, add some AOL pop-ups, some MS-specific extensions (making it incompatible with the free version), and BLAM — your project has now been scooped away from you.
Well, of course, you could still continue working on your free version, but the mass public (and here’s that distinction from Sendmail I was talking about), the mass public won’t be using your version because it doesn’t have the neato MS-feature-3000 that the WizBang version has. In fact, not knowing any better, they’ll be annoyed with your project, since it adds to confusion in their marketplace and it’s not fully compatible with the WizBang version anyway.
*That’s* why the MIT is the wrong choice of license for a project with a huge potential for mass appeal to the unwashed public, and why it’s so difficult to attract those smart prolific hackers to such MIT-licensed projects.
So Haikus vapourware? Oh crap, my media kit just turned to steam. As did my graphics, sound and IDE drivers. And my fat/iso/udf filesystem drivers. And my entire image translation kit. And pretty much half to two thirds of my entire system. All up in steam…..
> With MIT, they can just grab up your code, add some AOL pop-ups, some MS-specific
> extensions (making it incompatible with the free version), and BLAM — your
> project has now been scooped away from you.
As I’ve stated before, the GPL does in no way prevent this from happening and it’s not even designed to prevent this.
*Any* sufficiently modular software can be made incompatible with other implementations without violating a license like the GPL. The GPL isnt concerned with compatibility, it’s concerned with keeping changes to the *source* open. Although this *might* keep your average code monkey from creating his own incompatible vesion it does in no way prevent anyone who’s actually hellbent on doing it.
> *That’s* why the MIT is the wrong choice of license for a project with a huge
> potential for mass appeal to the unwashed public, and why it’s so difficult to attract
> those smart prolific hackers to such MIT-licensed projects.
Way to insult everyone working on the project. Nice to know that we’re not as smart as those GPL coders…
And for the last time, the goal of the Haiku project is not to create an OS with mass appeal. How hard is this to understand? Not every OS project strives to compete with Microsoft and Apple and to sell boatloads at Wallmart.
Driver wrappers doesnt solve the root of the problem. The problem is not that there arent drivers for your OS, the problem is vendors who doesnt publish their API. By providing a slow (as you said) wrapper all you will acheive is giving those vendors even less reasons to publish their API since, hey, you can just use the driver wrapper. And as Kian said, the bulk of those drivers will only work on X86 wich isnt the only, and certainly not the most well designed, hardware platform in the world. Drivers wrappers are at the best a stop-gap solution but mostly they just makes the situation worse in the long run.
is just going to keep going and going…
record ammount of Posts for an osnews article pretty soon
I only need to say two things:
#1
Haiku boots already.
#2
You can usually extract the driver API from drivers. A driver wrapper would be pointless. Though I use to very much not think this way. Such as when I tried desperately to get help on a wrapper for Windows drivers for BeOS. Namely graphics.
There is software already out there that will generate source code for a driver.. all you do is select the device that has a valid driver installed already (and perhaps not) and hit Generate.
I have used this software before, the demo version I had did not give me enough data to make a driver for BeOS that properly supported my old DSL modem with USB. But it write up everything except the actual device communication code (i.e. Driver API stuff).
If we created a driver API reversing application, it would be best not to let the whole world know we have it. That way we could convince those companies still to release the interface. Of course, we could automate the process, create a spyware app that went out to Windows machines, got the hardware list, compared it to the list of hardware not currently supported, and send in the data we need to create a new driver.. and then that driver could be more or less generated.
That would be a more or less permenant fix, however we would have to write code for Windows.. which would not be something I would like to do.
–The loon
> *That’s* why the MIT is the wrong choice of license for a project with a huge
> potential for mass appeal to the unwashed public, and why it’s so difficult to attract
> those smart prolific hackers to such MIT-licensed projects.
Way to insult everyone working on the project. Nice to know that we’re not as smart as those GPL coders…
Huh? Not sure where you got that from. The project seems to currently have a small group of talented developers. I’m of course still talking about attracting *more* of them.
Do you seriously think this hasnt already been considered over and over again a long time ago?
Has it been reconsidered (self reflection)? Is there any numbers available which indicate how many other people have been ticked off by the license who would have otherwise contributed? Contributed in which way? What is their quality?
Seriously, i’m all in for the “GPL isn’t a magic bullet” argument, but i’m not so sure on the positive impact of chosing MIT/X11.
Also, those who prefer GPL should consider that what they see as positive aspect of the GPL, one other could see as a negative one. Don’t forget, these are opinions. One aspect of MIT is that the code is easy forkable and is allowed to become proprietary. You may find that bad, but it isn’t from a realistic point of view bad. Bad is an opinion. (See BitTorrent as an example. Bram’s code is implemented in loads of BitTorrent implementations.)
—
If gpl is so great why don’t Sun,Apple,and Microsoft use it for their OS ?
Uhm, that doesn’t indicate quality, but just to prove your examples are wrong: Sun is using the GPL (JDS), and Apple too (KHTML).
How many GPL apps are “flying off the shelves” in Walmarts ?
Bob Schnatterly writes: I think a top goal for Haiku R1 is to write a “wrapper driver” that allows Linux or Windows device drivers to be used for slower peripherals (i.e., anything but the monitor). I know it’s possible because I’ve seen articles about similar efforts for other OS’s (unless I’m mistaken). Someone who really knows Windows driver development needs to step forward and tackle this ASAP. Yes, the drivers will be slow, but having drivers that work with modern hardware is crucial. With the resulting user base (and some donated “bribe” money), we’ll get the vendors on our side.
While i don’t have an opinion about wether this is good or not, i’m not so sure this will get vendors on your side. The fact a piece of hardware works on a platform means there’s less will for a developer to support a platform because it already works. This has been true regarding drivers for Linux, open-source drivers partly working for Linux (vendors), proprietary partly working drivers for Linux (Linux kernel hackers), and finally also games for Linux which ran via WineX while a native port was in arrangement but got stopped because of WineX “worked”. Also, such proprietary software means it will only run on x86. It’s worth it to take this into account and consider it IMO. I think you’ll have to put considerable energy into getting support from vendors, and some of that will be proprietary drivers (which ain’t by definition bad or so).
BeOS/Haiku is much better known
BeOS is pretty known (relatively), yes, but others argued in this thread Haiku isn’t. The name “OpenBeOS” would have drawn attention, and i’m quite certain it did, but by renaming it (yes i know the reasons) Haiku lost its marketing name as a connection / “open” BeOS (which it actually ain’t
but oh well). I think you’ll have to put energy into marketing it when its more polished (e.g. around R1 beta’s).
About vapourware: Something typical about vapourware is the marketing and fuss behind it, mostly with screenshots and positive comments about one can and will be able to do. Haiku is rather quiet to the outside world while the mailing lists are open to anyone, so you’re able to see what’s going on at the inside. That’s hardly the same as say Duke Nukem Forever, Longhorn, AmigaOS4, or that “magic emulator” with WINE screenshots from the Philipines.
You made good points though. Others did as well, it was a good read. I’m looking forward to give a beta a whirl on a test computer.
—-
How many GPL apps are “flying off the shelves” in Walmarts ?
Who cares? Your one-liners are quite simplistic and reflect hate regarding the GPL as that’s about the only thing you take into account with those one-liners. Anyway, Lindows is there, JDS is there, and probably others. Also, Walmart is USA-centric; in Germany and the Netherlands other (similar) stores lead such as “Media Markt” where you’ll be able to buy the latest SUSE which resides right left or right of that new Windows and Office box.
To do an example on the other side, OpenBSD uses BSD, but you can’ t just copy their CD images,
their team works hard, it has some goals (i.e. security),
and with this CD-IMAGES® escamotage, they survive.
Barely. The real financial back-up is given by their free time while financially supported by their (OpenBSD-related) jobs. Also, grants like the one of DARPA help the project much more than the CD or merchandise sales. This has been pointed out at the OpenBSD mailinglists numerous times.
Btw, nobody mentioned AROS. Not that i demand it or something… but i do find this an interesting OS related to AmigaOS/BeOS philosophy.
Also, i’m looking forward to various performance-improving software for Linux such as: Kernel 2.6, ReiserFS4, DE’s, X.Org, FD.o and related projects, DirectFB. Those might resamble what BeOS was once was, and it might be there quicker than Haiku R1 or R2. Some here believe no Linux software willbe able to do this, well, i for one don’t. Might be worth it for others who wish for this to keep an eye on these projects.
Anyway, i’m out.
“Who cares? Your one-liners are quite simplistic and reflect hate regarding the GPL as that’s about the only thing you take into account with those one-liners”
If you percieve any hate it is your own reflection…
…I have no bias re any OS or platform or licensing.
I use many OS’s,for 24 years,each for the different purposes they were designed for and do not live in an illusion that any one of them suits everybody’s needs.
My family have been in OS design for over 30 years.
I use Suse Linux now for some 8 years or more.If they intend to continue charging money for it they should include a commercial X server that works professionally instead of XFree.
If you had read my longer posts you would notice there is no point trying to tell Haiku developers how to do something you are not doing now,if you had any interest in this development or experience sufficient to contribute to an operating system’s development you would have contacted the Haiku teams by email or through the discussion channels,before they all agreed what terms they are working in,and what they are to achieve.
If you have read any of the OpenBeOS aka Haiku websites you would know the answers to all your questions,even if you are not capable of understanding them from reading the same answers here repeated many times because most critics of Haiku have not bothered to read and understand anything yet.
It amazes me some of the people here can operate a computer at all,let alone earn a living from them.
Normally using a computer requires the ability to understand written information.
Good thing I haven’t been home for a while so I didn’t get to be a part of the action here (wasting my time).
However, I was just wondering why people are considering this project to be developing slowly? I think it has done an amazing progress with the limited amount of developers the project has.
They did the same mistake that most people does when they start out with a new project. They underestimate the time needed to complete it.
If you make a quick overview of what needs to be done then it looks quite simple. But as you start out and get deeper into details you find that it’s a lot more work than you expected. Also, things never work flawlessly at the first run. Most of the time is spent debugging and going around issues and limitations (at least it feels like it).
If their main goal was to have the OS out withing one year, it would have been possible. But it would be really buggy, incomplete with a complete lack of attention to details.
It’s a good time that they focus on making things right instead of getting it out as quickly as possible.
As for the market relevance of Haiku, I’m quite sure that it will never be a mainstream OS. However, in the audio production world, a lot of people are still wishing for something dedicated, light and fast to run the software on. Prodived Haiku gets the needed apps and drivers, it will surely have a place in the audio and video creation market.
Will it or should it try to compete with windows? I sure hope not.
YellowTab is doing a better job now than what they used to, and they have a bunch of good people on board. But I see no future there really, they don’t have a focus and they don’t seem to care much about the community.
I think that Haiku will be ready for _me_ to use within a year or so. But it won’t be ready for public use, it needs a lot of testing and debugging for that. Something that I will try to help out with.
Haiku is in no way irrelevant, and longhorn won’t make it less relevant.
btw…
…if anyone still thinks I am anti linux or gpl,why the hell would I be using a linux isp for hosting and dsl ?
in jest,not joust
Just because someone runs Linux, does not mean he/she cannot hate the GPL (“i don’t hate black people, since i have a black friend”). Enough people don’t like Windows, yet they do run it. Anyway, if you say so, i look it from the positive side, and see you as honest on that regard even though it did not convince me based on your other arguments.
If you had read my longer posts you would notice there is no point trying to tell Haiku developers how to do something you are not doing now,if you had any interest in this development or experience sufficient to contribute to an operating system’s development you would have contacted the Haiku teams by email or through the discussion channels,before they all agreed what terms they are working in,and what they are to achieve.
I’ve decided to post it here, sue me. But, quoting the bold, it says: “after decisions are made, there is no place for criticism anymore.” Given you don’t have a big readership since you’re relatively unknown, don’t you think that’s quite short-sightened?
If you have read any of the OpenBeOS aka Haiku websites you would know the answers to all your questions,even if you are not capable of understanding them from reading the same answers here repeated many times because most critics of Haiku have not bothered to read and understand anything yet.
Actually, i have read the Haiku website partly, which cost me a great amount of time, but it was worth it. Just not everything since its quite a lot of content. It would have been more constructive when instead of writing that long reply, you just referred me to the relevant links, and said exactly to which questions you were referring to. But i don’t need the latter, only the links.
I’ll ignore your straw man, ad hominem argument for the sake of receiving a more constructive reply, with relevant links (all i want, no need to say anything else).
“As for the market relevance of Haiku, I’m quite sure that it will never be a mainstream OS. However, in the audio production world, a lot of people are still wishing for something dedicated, light and fast to run the software on. Prodived Haiku gets the needed apps and drivers, it will surely have a place in the audio and video creation market.
Will it or should it try to compete with windows? I sure hope not.”
Agreed. Demand for such a product to run on cheap x86 hardware is real. Apple seems to be taking care of powerpc side of things.
Making music can be costly. A nice studio condenser microphone will easily cost you $1000. 8 channels of converters (a/d-d/a) run another $1500. 8 Channels of pro mic preamps will run you $2000 or more. 2 channels of premium mic pres (john hardy, neve, API) will run you $700 per channel. You generally want at least 8 channels to record a minimal band and that also means at least 8 mics, though some of these can be relatively inexpensive dynamics. Its not uncommon to use 6-8 channels for drums alone.
Most musicians will prefer to spend $$$ on microphones or preamps or converters than PCs as the former have the greatest impact on your sound. Samplers, instruments are add more.
And then there is the issue of performance. I’ll use windows at home by myself but i refuse to use windows to track a band. Won’t do it. I also won’t pay for windows next upgrade if its really that bloated. those are cycles that could have been used for running a reverb.
“Given you don’t have a big readership since you’re relatively unknown, ”
How did you come to this ? I made no mention of readership or being known.
if it’s too hard to find the links re Haiku for a person that states they are interested in it,how did you come to be aware of it in the first place ? where there no links in any previous article or discussion of OpenBeOS or Haiku in the last three years ? I doubt it.
anyway …
http://www.haiku-os.org/learn.php
http://www.haikunews.org (formerly the BeOSJournal)
irc.freenode.net #haiku
I am not sure in what idiom you use strawman,but is seems to be an unfounded and personal insult.
> Where is the advanced audio capabilities (for your
> information, Media Kit always sucked, but Be’s marketing
> was clever to call Be a “media OS” and everyone ate the
> lie).
The last time I checked, you needed third party ASIO drivers to achieve low latency in Windows. Be’s media kit allows 64 sample buffer sizes, timestamping, etc. So what sucks more???
IMO, when Be Inc died, its media kit architecture was the best available. By now, Apple’s core audio might have taken the lead, but as I’ve never used it, I can’t judge it.
BSD is NOT dead and HAIKU should use DragonFlyBSD kernel instead of NEWOS, because Dragonfly is the best kernel in the world! 😉
(will we hit the 333 posts?)
l4 kernel is the best in the world!!! the Hurd people cannot be wrong!
A lot of different OS’s have been mentioned here that I’ve never even heard of (e.g., AROS). A *lot* of OS’s. It would be truly frightening (for a certain company in Redmond, that is) if all of these developers got together and supported a single alternative to Windows & Linux. I’m challenging you all to do just that, and support Haiku. If your OS has something wonderful (and object oriented) that Haiku doesn’t/won’t have, bring it along. We could use your help. I’ve said enough on this topic – it’s time to get coding! I’ll be asking a lot of questions in the near future (like how to use CVS – I’ve got a lot to learn…
Man, this thread ain’t dying 🙂
The media kit is still the lowest latency kit I have ever run. When the latency is so small that it is nearly impossible to time even without enabling Real-Time Audio or Video, that should say something.
That is of course, the measurement of delay between when a sound is told to play, and when it actually starts.
The largest advantage are live-filters. This is not unique to Be’s media kit, but I think it is the fastest system I have seen at doing it in comparisons. Of course, when you are saying that 1ms is super-vital, I simply don’t understand. I am a huge BeOS fan, and a massive Haiku devotee, but I honestly don’t see why people would argue over 1ms, when it will take the sound card that much time to get the sound out to the seakers.
Sure, that may add up to 2ms between saying ‘Play’ and actually hearing the sound, but I doub’t anyone will notice.
There is more time wasted inside the program when a user is involved and hitting a button to play the sound. You have another 2ms maybe for that, doubling the time it takes for the action to occur. Of course, that time is very measurable, but the program itself would need to measure the time, which takes time, so it is likely not going to be a fair assessment. But I will see how long it takes when I get back on my machine at home, and off this one.
–The loon
Oh, yeah, and if you really are made out of Straw Tenzin, I will one-up helf and say: I have a torch, some gasoline, and a hand-grenade… let’s roll!
Howdy dude,
Come on to BeShare and speak with me sometime.
I can help you out with pretty much any help you need. I also have tons of code I would not mind sharing with you for integration with Haiku. It is not written to the OpenTracker coding standards, but I code fairly close to that way, so it would not be hard to see.
–The loon
Now you know I ain’t flammable bubba,
but we can git some ‘shine and take yo grenades an go thinkpad fishing in the local swamp anytime
One point I have not seen anything about is if presently available GPL developers are useful in writting Haiku code? Most GPL developers today are Linux developers and have developed skills for that enviroment.
After all to write Haiku code they will need to understand for example how the BFS works but about two years ago I remember the diffirent FileSystems authors for Linux all saying they saw no need for all the features of BFS to be added to thier FS. So how many GPL developers know where and where not to use MetaData? Additionallt the tree of system files is diffirent than Linux’s which will cause problems if they try and insist on using the layouts that they are use to.
I also remember Linux programmers complaining about BeOS’s (now Haiku’s) threaded model for programming. Single threaded programs work on BeOS, even I have written some but multi-thread programs are what are needed to make Haiku run properly and shine. Delivering Haiku with mostly single threaded programs is one of the fastest ways to destroy it’s appeal.
Last but not least are the APIs and libraries, new developers need to learn them before they can start writting good code and for OS development that means learning a lot of APIs, plus so far BeOS/Haiku has avoided the stupid library problems of Linux, mostly by having all(?)/most(?) of the libraries publish being backwards compatible and not having fifteen people all write thier own version of a library.
To me the Linux GPL developers seem to have a lot of bad habits, but the worse one to me is the tendancy (sp?) to re-written libraries instead of contacting the original author to add a new/updated function to thier original library and if not possible why can’t the Linux developers add an extra library of thier own with the needed code instead of messing around with the original?
Really, I don’t see a large rush of new GPL developers to Haiku as a good thing at all.
Earl Colby Pottinger
Sure, that may add up to 2ms between saying ‘Play’ and actually hearing the sound, but I doub’t anyone will notice.
I see that you’re not a musician
As for simple audio playing low latency isn’t a big need. It’s when you start making music that the latency is important.
You need to be able to hear what you play when you play it. No matter if you are playing with a softsynth/sampler or recording electric guitars, the latency is important. Being a few ms off all the time makes it harder to play, and if you are playing along with pre-recorded tracks it won’t sound as tight.
That’s why a lot of semi-pro/pro audio hardware has hardware monitoring that takes the signal and mixes it with the output instead of going all the way through the computer. But if you want to monitor with VST-effects then hardware monitoring is useless and you need to get as low latency as possible in order to be able to play along at all.
In the same way low latency is important with softsynths/sampler. When you push that key you need to hear the note instantly or it will become hard to play. Trust me a good musician will notice the difference between a few ms in latency. And it’s important to keep every link in the chain as light as possible to get a low latency all the way.
Sure, the soundcard will give you some latency, but it doesn’t help if you ignore the latency of the rest of the digital audio chain.
That’s one of the reasons I bought the Vox Tonelab instead of the Line6 PODxt. The PODxt has a noticable latency, which makes it less responsive and less fun to play with.
Bottom line. When recording music digitally, low latency and small buffers are vital.
Makes sense 🙂
I guess I should enable Real-time then for my guitar and vocal audio distortions I have running through BeOS. I may notice a difference. (I can tell a really faint delay, but it isn’t troublesome).
Keep in touch,
–The loon
looncraz™
The differences re delay are the basis of the difference between reverb,chorus,flanging and echo.The smaller the delay,the more subtle the effect.
The other difference is the obstacles created for global web jamming using the ‘seriously long midi cable’ client and server for BeOS
Tell me more of your guitar>BeOS input.Is it a midi guitar,Synthaxe,Stepp DG1,Yamaha,Roland,Chapman Stick ?
Hanez acoustic with pickup for amps (plug doubles as strap :-))
I simply run it to my line-in, and use software for everything else.
–The loon
Harrison LPC-D mixing console
http://www.glw.com/products/lpcd/index.html
Tascam SX-1 workstation
http://www.expandore.com/product/TASCAM/workstation/SX-1.htm
Mercenary-Audio RADAR®24 audio system
http://store.yahoo.com/mercenary-audio/radar24.html
Roland Edirol DV-7 digital video and audio editing system
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/dv7/dv7.html
Roland Edirol DV-7PR Digital Video Presenter
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/dv7/dv7pr.html
Roland Edirol DV-7DL Pro Direct Linear Video Editing System
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/dv7dl/dv7dl.html
LCS CueStation
http://www.lcsaudio.com/Products/CueStation.html
LCS System installations worldwide
http://www.lcsaudio.com/Installations.html
TuneTracker Radio Automation System
http://www.tunetrackersystems.com/
All dedicated BeOS systems,in professional use,worldwide,now.
Including as I have already stated Sydney Opera House and DisneyLand.
All running applications not available on any other platform than BeOS.
Holy schmolly!
I wonder how many are using PhOS 🙂 Heh, none probably 🙂
That is a pretty impressive list, but your forgetting all of the little radio stations people setup around my area 🙂 I’ve listened to at least three within a 100 mile radius and heard TuneTracker or BeOS comments 🙂
Anyway, yeah, we got off topic.. so here we go:
GPL Sucks, MIT Sucks too, Haiku rules, Eugenia has a right to her opinion, but thanks to her throwing it on the web, we all get to try and hit a record number of posts :-).
Linux sucks, Windows sucks, MacOS X is decent, BeOS is decent, PhOS sucks (and I make it :-)), Zeta sucks even more, DOS rules!!
–The loon
>>>All dedicated BeOS systems,in professional use,worldwide,now. Including as I have already stated Sydney Opera House and DisneyLand.
The problem is that all the very high end, high performance stuff are built on vxworks and qnx. Did you know that the founder of WindRiver (Jerry Fiddler) — before he even founded WindRiver and vxworks — created real-time video editing machines for NFL and Francis Ford Coppola in the 1970’s.
http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/news/alumni/sp96/fiddler.html
Euphonix system 5 — vxworks
http://www.euphonix.com/music/products/system_5/system_5.htm
Sony DMX-R100 — QNX
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may02/articles/dmxr100v2.asp
Sydney Opera House — QNX
http://www.creativeaudio.com.au/media/mediab.html
Sydney Olympic Stadium — QNX
http://www.peakaudio.com/CobraNet/Installations/Olympic_Stadium.htm…
The low end is occupied by Microsoft. And real Hollywood work is done on vxworks and qnx.
I use QNX,it costs over twenty times more than BeOS,and in my experience it’s hardware support is no better than BeOS.
QNX has only recently developed professionally usable 3d.
BeOS has been capable of 3d for nine years and is faster at rendering on the same hardware than any other OS I have used for 3d.
As for real work in hollywood,a lot of it is done on SGI and Sun.
None of this or your examples change the fact that BeOS is not dead,is in professional use from low to high end,and will continue to be so,regardless of how many other systems are in use.
I use BeOS for field emergency medical practice and medical research,for it’s unique databasing and 3d capabilities.
It helps me to save people’s lives,and will continue to do so,in war zones,epidemics and disasters as well as clincal practice.
I am too busy to waste time on any more complicated OS for this task.BeOS installs in ten minutes,and boots in a few seconds.
Tenzin,
i’m assuming by 3d you mean 3d audio?
cheers
peter
“”””I’m sick of this obsession with BeOS. It had it’s strengths, but it had some serious weaknesses as well. ANYONE still using it in 2004 is a dinosaur, and well, you know what happened to the dinosaurs.””””
the dinosaurs went evolution to birds
And in your analogy today a dinosaur (beos) will eate all the mamifers (Windows, macosx…etc)
my analogy is very diferent for me the dinosaurs are windows (big, slow, crappy but dominate the world), Beos are the mamifers like in the era of dinosaurs:small, fasters and more evolved but as they cannot compete with the dinosaurs they live in its own specialized niches
Computer world is like biology, that dominates the world in a certain moment of the time not necessarily meants that is more evolutioned or that is better.there are a lot of cases on biology (that is aplicable to computers) that the only way to survive is specialize but the specialization is a evolutive trap.I am a biologist and i love computers so i know of which i speak
Sorry for my english but i think that the idea that i want transmit it is understood
>>with this CD-IMAGES® escamotage, they survive.
>Barely. The real financial back-up is given by
>their free time while financially supported by their
>(OpenBSD-related) jobs.
Yeah, and for *that* ecosystem, BSD license imho is even better than GPL, that’s why I wrote about it.
But there are case and case to evaluate.
…Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead…
…and so is BeOS…
…and Haiku is a long way from being even remotely close to usable.
it’s not “a long way off from being even remotely usable” . just a several months. And BeOS is NOT dead
An OS is dead only when the last user stops using it.
yay, we hit 350 posts!
BeOS is dead the day I and the other 1K+ users who use it *every day* on *recent hardware* for *normal usage* can no longer do so. That day won’t come for a number of years. By which time Haiku *WILL* be done.
FH, I’d advise you to go off, use Linux and forget about other systems. It suits your type of personality.
“There is software already out there that will generate source code for a driver.. all you do is select the device that has a valid driver installed already (and perhaps not) and hit Generate.
I have used this software before, the demo version I had did not give me enough data to make a driver for BeOS that properly supported my old DSL modem with USB. But it write up everything except the actual device communication code (i.e. Driver API stuff).”
What’s it called, and where do you find it ?
Mate, you should try reading my post before slagging off about me accusing Haiku/OpenBeOS being vapourware. I was responding to another post who was stating that and showing reason as to why Haiku isn’t.
Looncraz,will your next version of PhOS have the memory workaround for systems with more than 1Gig??? would love to run a current version of BeOS on my Dual AMD system and I know I should be able to get most of my hardware supported.
Dual AMD MP 2000+
1Gig Ram
Ti4400
Hoontech DSP24 C-Port
Most noticable hardware.
Let me know
blitze at cheerful dot com
Thanks
Im using an Athlon 64 which is derived from the Athlon XP kernel patch. (http://www.bebits.com/app/3390)
I have a gig of ram and use the 512mb limited bootloader (http://www.bebits.com/app/3851)
The Nvidia driver can be found at BeBits also
And an early alpha version for the Hoontech DSP is here (http://www.kabunkie.de/BeOS/index.html)
Should have no problems using those
I hear good things about Haiku’s progress all the time. In fact, BeOS Journal’s name change to Haiku News was fairly telling, I thought.
Anyway, I predict a Bedoper story about Eugenia’s birthday greeting by Monday. Not written by myself, either.
I’m glad to see BeOS and related OSs are still newsworthy, at any rate.
Seen PearPC, Love PearPC just the same a BeOS… Since the guys working on Haiku don’t seem to be moving things along, maybe the guys from PearPC should give the project a hand. They’re a bunch of the smart driven developers.
It would be fantastic to seem some virtualization technology built into Haiku at the kernel level…
Hummm dreamy..
Sadly, that Hoontech/STAudio driver is very limited and unstable. And it doesn’t look like Oliver will ever finish it (he has pretty much lost interest in BeOS since he got a Mac).
I did the mistake of buying it in hope of that driver (hello Echo users
). And now it seems that I’ll never be able to use it properly under BeOS/Haiku. Oh well, I’ve learned my $700 lesson.
Yes, unfortunately he doesn’t seem to keen on open sourcing it. However when that driver was released, i was very excited for a time because i actually was able to record! (which Oliver told me I technically wasnt able to do:))
It cost me $1500 AU in 2000 to get the C-port, and I’m still hoping that someone will step up to the plate and help make a driver for this sweet piece of hardware (now inexpensive!)
Would be interesting to know if the fixes the haiku media kit multiaudio api has resolved the issues that Oliver was having with the driver. I guess we’ll never know.
Still. that driver lets me play mp3s, which is by far *the* most important feature
Howdy all,
I just almost completed the port of GPLFlash to BeOS / Haiku. Library compiles, plugin should (for FireFox/Mozilla), and I have already come to understand how the playback works.
Last steps:
Write a BeOS GUI (don’t like command-line, like it has).
Get sound working. (BeOS API is actually almost identical to how the Sound.cc file was organized, so playback shouldn’t be hard. May require creation of a decoder.
–The loon
> BeOS *was* the best operating system I’ve ever used,
> unfortunately, atm, i don’t find it practicle anymore.
It *is* the best OS I’ve ever used (desktop end-user experince-wise) — and I’m currently using OS X and Slackware.
That’s why this thread is 357 comments long. BeOS was just so good that, what community is left hates to see its possible future fragmented. It’s like watching an olympic athlete sit in front of the television and atrophy. We’re ardent BeOS fans, but can’t stand the flushing noise we’re hearing.
This is why folks like me suggest OBOS go GPL whenever this topic comes up. Not only would it likely attract new developers, but it would probably draw in the Cosmoe and BlueEyedOS devs, and maybe even the Syllable devs (another awful name choice there — sorry guys — you’re obviously very talented folks (like the current OBOS devs) but it’s a tough name to google, has very little name-recognition, and is even easy to misspell).
The trouble is, the community has different goals than the OBOS devs — but the OBOS devs are the ones doing the coding.
My best guess is that the OBOS folks like the MIT because it keeps the door open if they want to go closed-source down the road. Maybe they could start their own company and make a few bucks. Dunno. That would be great for them, for a few years anyway. But I’ve been burned once by Be’s focus shift — I’ll only use GPL OS’s from now on.
My best guess is that the OBOS folks like the MIT because it keeps the door open if they want to go closed-source down the road. Maybe they could start their own company and make a few bucks. Dunno. That would be great for them, for a few years anyway. But I’ve been burned once by Be’s focus shift — I’ll only use GPL OS’s from now on.
It keeps the door open for companies to take Haiku and use it for their own purposes. Wether they’re the same as the current companies mentioned in this thread or other purposes like TIVO-like devices or even more interesting ones. Haiku doesn’t plan to include every piece of software in their releases, that’s up to any possible distrobutions (free or for money) or the individual users. It also keeps the door wide open for companies to release binary-only drivers or allow NDAs to be signed by developers for binary-only drivers. Yes, I know there are binary-only drivers for Linux based operating systems. However it took a while for that to happen, probably not least because the companies in question felt the need to spend some time researching how to go about it, without violating any part of the GPL (and any exceptions granted by the license holder).
The focus shift you mentioned was by Be from BeOS towards their BeIA. Not from free Haiku to money-grubbing Haiku (although, granted, that too would be a focus shift).
…oh yeahhh, it’s so funny. let’s start the GPL vs MIT flamebait again.
please take the Haiku sources and fork the project. Make the license GPL and seel for new developers. OR SHUTUP!
I’m sorry. You’re right of course. However, my intentions were to clarify Haikus intentions rather than justify chosing the MIT license over the GPL.
Ya know, considering this OS (BeOS/Haiku) is claimed to be “Dead” there seems to be 1) a heck of a lot of people still with BeOS on their machines (or with an old machine they keep to run it) 2) a heck of a lot of people willing to put it back on their machines (waiting for drivers etc) 3) a heck of a lot of people keen on talking about it!
360+ posts, don’t remember reading this many before, all interesting and varied, the result of an active community!
For me personally BeOS is like an old friend, whom I love dearly and haven’t seen in far too long a time. From the very beginning it actually “did what it said on the tin” in the best ways possible. From BFS to search queries, from intergrated email to drag and drop, from multithreaded ingenuity to audio/image translators, it was and still is a thing of great beauty.
The C compiler – quick and lean (ever compiled Gentoo??!), the dev tools and support 2nd to none (continued thanks to the OBEOS/Haiku crew) No dependency hell, no dll hell, no registry or other such hell.
Super small footprint and hardware requirements, small apps with big features(which download in seconds without spyware, malware, maulware).
What the hell am I doing in Windows? I’m waiting for hardware fixes (for BeOS) and I broke my Gentoo 😉
Go Haiku team, bring back my old friend and end my suffering!! 😀
There’s no need to justify choosing the MIT license over the GPL. It’s the developpers’ choice, and theirs only to make. It’s their project, their time and their work. Their goals may or may not coincide with yours or mine, mais c’est la vie. Smoerk is right. If there are BEOS aficionados out there who would like to GPL Haiku, they can indeed fork the project and do just that. The fact of the matter is, after three years of diverse efforts to revive BEOS R5, such developpers appear not to exist… and that’s that.
I think it would benefit customers in the prosumer arena like the professional Audio devices that could be created using Haiku or Video Editing devices. Not that this can’t be done on GPL but companies prefere to keep their technology under wraps although any company taking Haiku and modifying it and improving upon it, it would be nice if they released the code back into the community for the benefit of all Haiku users.
I suppose we will see when things come to release time and the community see the response of companies to Haiku as a BeOS replacement (something they can either replace existing hardware platforms built on BeOS or create hardware platforms using Haiku).
…on ELQ’s new job writing birthday cards for Halmark.
http://www.bedoper.com/bedoper/2004/twentyninth.htm
There’s no need to justify choosing the MIT license over the GPL. It’s the developpers’ choice, and theirs only to make. It’s their project, their time and their work. Their goals may or may not coincide with yours or mine, mais c’est la vie.
Well, I’d say that it’s a choice the project’s leader makes. Then, if the devs like the choice, they can stay and continue contributing. Otherwise, they may go.
Smoerk is right. If there are BEOS aficionados out there who would like to GPL Haiku, they can indeed fork the project and do just that.
The trouble with that idea is that we don’t really need any more slintering of the community.
The fact of the matter is, after three years of diverse efforts to revive BEOS R5, such developpers appear not to exist… and that’s that.
How about the devs already contributing to Cosmoe? BlueEyedOS? Syllable? If the Haiku license were changed to GPL, how many of them would eventually find their way to Haiku?
Eeek. Sorry, it that last paragraph, I forgot to mention BeFree too. http://befree.sourceforge.net/
How about the devs already contributing to Cosmoe? BlueEyedOS? Syllable? If the Haiku license were changed to GPL, how many of them would eventually find their way to Haiku?
More to the point (as far as I’m concerned), how many Haiku developpers would quit? They could have joined those other efforts if they had wanted to. You’re defeating your own argument. If what you want is a GPL iteration of Beos, that’s where you should go.
This isn’t splintering but diversity, and it exists because it’s necessary. Different people pursue different goals in different ways. In this effort, unity of purpose is far more important than sheer numbers. Numbers will fluctuate – and Haiku’s might very well grow once they have something to show… Remember R5 is just a start.
Besides these other projects have somewhat different goals than Haiku. Haiku is the one project that caught my attention, because it’s the most ambitious. And I see merit in the MIT license precisely because it might quickly attract some commercial interest to the platform. I’m thinking about the sort of video or audio machines like exist based on MacOs, a la Avid. This would boost the platform immensely…
The title says it all. All the GPL pushers claim that if Haiku was GPL then there would be a flood on new developers from the Linux crowd. Well where are they with the other BeOS clones that are GPL’ed? Even using the Linux Kernel and X windows they can’t attact many new developers so why expect them for Haiku?
Rename Haiku to Linux. I mean there are lot’s of devs working on Linux.
(NOTE: This post is not to be taken serious, which seperates it from all the GPL-posts that probably wants to be taken serious).
> if Haiku was GPL then there would be a flood
> on new developers
Well, maybe now it is too late, but imho I think there would have *been* more developers.
> where are they with the other BeOS clones that are GPL’ed?
Oh, the following is my humble take :#)
They are different projects, with different goals, that are going to fill different holes, and with different competitors that may not leave enought “feeling the need” of investing very much in those projects by GPL community developers.
Haiku is (and was) a completely new project, not an alike-extension to Linux.
Anyway best wishes to Haiku and those BeOS clones,
…like BeFree with Fiorini & others
> How about the devs already contributing to Cosmoe?
> BlueEyedOS? [edit: also BeFree] Syllable? If the Haiku
> license were changed to GPL, how many of them would
> eventually find their way to Haiku?
More to the point (as far as I’m concerned), how many Haiku developpers would quit? They could have joined those other efforts if they had wanted to. You’re defeating your own argument. If what you want is a GPL iteration of Beos, that’s where you should go.
Sorry. I should be writing GPL/LGPL instead of just GPL.
Yes. Some might quit. You can’t please everyone all of the time. You ask, why didn’t they just join those other efforts? I don’t want to step on any toes, but I’ll tell you why: it’s because their project leader (along with his right-hand folks) really has it together. The Haiku site is pretty, it’s well-documented, they’ve got newsletters, tutorials, the works. If anyone can succeed, it’s them. I’ve talked with Michael Phipps — he’s a great guy and a great team leader. Folks *want* to work for him. The other active groups (BlueEyedOS, Cosmoe, BeFree) have talented people, good-looking websites, and probably some good code already written (I’ve been out of the OBOS scene for a while, so I’m not sure who’s accomplished what so far). I was very pleased to see BlueEyed finally choose a license. However, these other projects seem to be the work of cool hackers who want BeOS back. Haiku seems to be the nerve-center of the whole darn community that wants BeOS back.
The title says it all. All the GPL pushers claim that if Haiku was GPL then there would be a flood on new developers from the Linux crowd.
Look, in this thread I may be pushing the GPL/LGPL, but more importantly, I’m pushing Haiku — and I think that for them to succeed on a grand scale, they’re going to need to re-license using the GPL or LGPL.
Well where are they with the other BeOS clones that are GPL’ed? Even using the Linux Kernel and X windows they can’t attact many new developers so why expect them for Haiku?
I can’t pretend to know the future, and I can’t predict reliably how many new devs Haiku would get by switching. What I can predict in general is:
A. it would likely consolidate common code (common to all the BeOS-related projects), which is a good thing. This alone would really get things sped up. You’d have a Haiku core site, then someone like BlueEyedOS would host their own X11 fork to run on Haiku core (that’s just a quick example). Less overall work for them, more work getting done for everyone.
B. it would probably attract new talent to the project, and over time, I think you’d end up with *more* devs working on Haiku. LGPL is a very popular license.
C. it would address the software patent issue (note, the GPL/LGPL addresses software patents). This one issue alone I believe is crucial, since Haiku distribution makers will likely be forced by the current business climate to include patented code into their modified Haikus. What happens when your own users start preferring company X’s Haiku over the official version because company X’s has “more features”?
D. it would likely get a lot of folks happy with Michael, and a lot of folks very angry at him, at the same time.
…for every word posted here in 360+ messages, the poster would have sent 5 US cents to Haiku Inc., the organisation would have enough funds to do many splendid things.
On an unrelated note: the good news among this discussion is that YOU ARE ALL RIGHT. None of you is wrong!
Those who say BeOS/Haiku/yT are dead, well yes, that’s exactly how your reality manifests itself. Those who say that BeOS/Haiku/yT are alive and kicking, well yes, that’s exactly how your reality manifests itself.
It’s all energy anyway, and when there is enough of it, it becomes denser and matter forms – IOW, things start to “matter”. Then momentum is gained and as such attracts more mass. Then it will grow for a very long time before it finally gets too big, too cold. No one knows what is going to happen to Haiku, but if the responses to this item are anything to go by, the future may look a lot brighter than many may believe. And if not, well, that’s your reality. Just remember that whatever negativity you send out, it will come back to you. So be nice, play fair and just enjoy life!
My 0.02.
I’d send 50C per message I posted here if they let non-US citizens donate. Looking at my IP you can see I’m far from a US citizen 🙂