The other day I attended the Chat with the Internet Explorer team. While I found it interesting and the fact that Microsoft is opening itself up more to the public by allowing developers to blog and allowing more public exposure at their conferences I will say I was very disappointed in the chat. Microsoft totally ignored the issues and the questions that really mattered were deflected and basically passed on for something more that Microsoft wanted to talk about.
I dont have a love/hate relationship for Microsofts products. I generally like the Microsoft offerings and have even started to embrace more of their offerings and with Yukon and Longhorn I find myself anticipating some of Microsofts future products. But, with the insecurities and problems that have sprung from Microsofts web browser it raises the question whether Internet Explorer 7 will be welcome with open arms or just more of a waste of hard drive space. Microsofts design techniques regarding Internet Explorer is 70 % of their problems, the other 30% is the work of very clever hackers and malicious code writers. Before I start let me just say I hold no ill will towards Microsoft. I know a couple of their engineers and partners and I think Microsoft for the most part does a pretty good job of dealing with the volume of customers that they have and I will say without a shadow of a doubt that I do not believe that any other company out here could do any better of a job dealing with that kind of volume. Everything I list here is only an opinion of how I think Microsoft could do a better job in regards to their browser technologies and should not be construed as an attack of any kind
Integration
Integration of products can be good, yet sometimes it can come back and bite you in the future. Personally, I feel that the integration of Internet Explorer into Windows was generally a very bad call. It does offer its benefits but from my experiences with Internet Explorer it has done more harm than good. Microsoft during its chat indicated that they were going to even go further and integrate Internet Explorer into Windows more tightly. Another bad call, we have seen the issues that rise up from Internet Explorer now and we know the trusted zones concept does not work very well at all further integration has the potential of being more devastating. The web browser also is the one most trusted application to go through the firewall and when the next exploit comes its going to be very difficult to curb the effects from it. I say when because its no longer a question of IF they can exploit your browser, it is a question of WHEN they will exploit the browser, Also to the degree of integration that Internet Explorer has with Windows now it makes it extremely difficult to patch the browser because not only do the engineers have to worry about breaking something in Windows itself so patching is not the only hurdle the developers have but the amount of testing that they have to do also plays a huge role in how the job needs to be done
Making Windows the vessel of delivery for Internet Explorer
For those of you that do not know this yet Microsoft has said and confirmed that it will no longer make Internet Explorer into a standalone product for older versions of the Windows OS but instead will only deliver new versions of Internet Explorer in the new versions of its Windows OS. Bad idea, I work with several Windows clients now and the one constant battle that I have with these customers is getting them to upgrade. Generally IT guys do not upgrade until the last possible minute. For example, I have had several customers who still refuse to upgrade from Windows NT, I have even more that still use Linux kernel 2.2. The general consensus is if it isn’t broke don’t fix it. IT leads are a tight group of people and they generally do not buy or spend their budget without a reason. In saying that I doubt customers especially the IT guys will buy Longhorn for Internet Explorer 7. A lot of IT guys will think that its more of a waste of money since what they have already just works. Consumers will pursue alternatives at that point such as Firefox or Netscape possibly Opera. If Microsoft continues down this road I think they will single handedly kill their own product.
Deviation from standards
I personally do not blame Microsoft for making their browser so that it does not adhere to standards, I blame the web developers. I blame them for letting themselves get sucked into the world of a corporate standard. When I do cross platform work I do not rely on Microsofts tools such as Visual J++, it only allows me to service one side of the market. If I know that UNIX, Linux or Mac users will be using my solutions I use the tools that will allow me to get the job done for everyone, that is why Im such a stickler for using Sun’s Java, its standards compliant and I can create cross platform applications and content and I don’t have to worry about it. When I write my C# applications I do not tie into the Windows registry because I would like at some point to be able to port to Mono and tying into Microsofts components will not let me do that. We the developers make the solutions, we make the content Microsoft should not be able to dictate to us what we can and can’t do, we need to dictate to Microsoft what standards we will use and how Microsoft should create their products to view our content and to use our solutions. We need to show companies like Microsoft and IBM that we will not be strong armed by anyone. One of the things Microsoft should do is investigate other methods than ActiveX controls. In my opinion there is no way to properly secure Internet Explorer with ActiveX enabled, my recommendation to web developers, stay away from ActiveX controls. The Viewable with any browser campaign has a design guide to help web developers from getting locked into proprietary, or as I call them, corporate standards.
Usability and Feature set
One of the most user unfriendly applications in Windows right now is Internet Explorer. While Microsoft tells us in its advisories to do this and that they often do not explain how to do it. The tools are there but they don’t make it so Jane Grandma can use them easily. When these advisories came out I had to do the work on my relatives machines, not Microsoft. Also, Microsoft seemed to blow off the suggestions for Tabbed browsing. There is a reason for these requests. Its not because we think tabbed browsing just looks awesome its because it helps us be more productive and it eats up less computer resources. As I tell my co-workers, there is a method to my madness and I do not ask people to do something to hear myself speak or to have them do more work just for the sake of having more work. The IE team really needs to start listening to the customer base and truly investigate the features customers want
Conclusion
While I do believe that Internet Explorer is a good browser, due to Microsofts future plans for it I do not feel I will use IE for anything. I do not like the way that Microsoft is integrating it and I feel I have many more problems on my hands than to have to deal with a security headache that a well implemented exploit can take out my system thanks to the browser. Im not a stubborn person though, If Microsoft does correct the problems and shows me that they are really working hard to make Internet Explorer more secure then I may reconsider. Until that time however, I do recommend Firefox as the alternate browser because it works with external mail clients unlike Mozilla that makes users have to use the Mozilla Mail application. That is a big help for corporate users who use GroupWise or other mail clients. I have heard some say that Firefox only works with 95% of the websites out there on the internet. To that I say I would rather work with 95% of the internet than to have to deal with some major security crisis in the future. With that said, the question many people will ask is if I am going to dump the Windows platform? The answer is no, it has a lot of benefits and is a good OS, very reliable and security is much better. For me personally, Internet Explorer is the only Microsoft product that is living on borrowed time.
About the Author
Roberto J Dohnert is a Unix/Linux and Windows Consultant and software developer. His first introduction to Unix based systems dates back to NeXTStep. He is a member of the GNU Darwin Distribution and has made several contributions to that and other projects. His personal webpage is here.
I dont think it will ever die. Unless MS windows Dies. You see the masses(to be fair ill define masses as people who dont spend time or have the interest to know technology, so they are a disadvantage, not stupid) dont know about the alternatives, and are spoon fed technology. Windows is known for their user freindliness(though of course thats not always true, its more like people are trained to use MS). Unless MASS OEM manufacturers bundle FireFox or Linux(I have a thing for SUSE and Mandrake, and it erks me seeing things like Lindows being offered on desktops instead, mainly cause it takes away the linux feel and treats users are dumb idiots to have them be told that its “web browser” instead of firefox, its that type of thinking that makes people thing Internet Explorer is the internet XD), then it will never become mainstream.
Of course that wont happen cause they want their precious deals on MS products. If all OEM specifically DELL, HP & COMPAQ, E-machines just blatenly switched over to LINUX or FireFOX then MS would lose, of course they would lose money in the short term but in fact mass migrate people over and would never have to pay for MS tax again.
So will IE disappear, maybe over 15 years, when all the technological savvy teenagers grow up have kids and raise them on something other than MS. right now the masses , specifically the adult age arent very educated and probably dont know they are infected with viruses, instead thinking their computer is just old and buying a new one.
Of course What would make IE a good browser is to trash active-x once and for all(im shocked there is a plug in for mozilla for it, i mean thats a stupid idea IMHO) Then support standards. MS touts “Embrace and Extend, but they only to the former. THey need to embrace standards damn it. But thats just the rant of person who wants a good product, unforntually, they ‘dont need to’ cause they have the $$$ in the bank.
A well written article, and true on most points. I myself stopped using IE 4 years ago, before I found Linux as an excellent solution to all my computing needs. I have ran almost all the “Large” Linux distro’s and found little if anything that I can’t do in Linux and can in Window$.
I find very few sites I can’t view with any number of alternatives to IE, and my practice is if it doesn’t work right with whatever browser I choose to view it with, then there is nothing there I need to see.
The article is very has a lot of insight going and so true. I have alredy ditched IE as my browser and the others have been very well received on my part. At the moment, I am using Opera and Firefox. At our home, our family uses those browsers instead of IE, which we all concurred as slow and cumbersome.
A few weeks ago, I replaced the OS of our family PC to Xandros 2.0 and the transition has become very very smooth with no problems at all. I plan to do the same with our small business (a small auto parts and repair shop) and I don’t see any problems switching to a new platform and browser.
I think they can ignore just because they’ve power. You buy a computer, you buy a machine with win xp and ONE browser. So most of the people are using IE just because they find it on the installed os. I don’t know how the situation is abroad, but in italy there are many software houses that build a web page just for ie, ignoring the standards. I believe that we can untrust ms, for the dominance position the company has allows mr.bill to do whatever he wants.
You have stated that the problem is the binding of IE to the windows OS. Totaly true and totaly frustrating. Wouldn’t it be nice if someone would start a project of building a very simpel FreeWin based on the FreeDos? Just Win with no extras.
Why? Well, because we love windows, realy!! Everybody loves windows (or KDE, Gnome etc) Let’s face it, most of us don’t have the time and knowledge to go so deep into learning other OS’s. I strongly believe that a (free) alternative for the Win OS is needed. Office suites are already available in plenty!
What does the article have anything to do with your chat with Microsoft’s Internet Explorer team?
Roberto will keep using Windows because he believes its security is getting better. However, he doesn’t see a bright future for Internet Explorer if Microsoft doesn’t change its course of action. How can these two statements be true at the same time, considering that the browser is a part of the OS ? How can Windows become more secure while IE reliability goes down the drain ?
For a while I used IE simply because there wasn’t a better alternative performance and even stabilitywise. But now there are alternatives. So now is a good time to choose one for your web surfing needs.
However I don’t think IE is going to go away anytime soon even if the majority of users switch to another browser because if people are still on windows and want to go to windows update and it doesn’t work on alternative browsers they have to use IE for that. That’s all there is to it.
Think IE is unsecure now? Wait till MS deploys ClickOne, their browser based software install system.
You will never have a secure produce no matter how much you audit the code if the product was not designed with security in mind from the beginning.
IE should not have the ability to run any code, at all, period.
If it can be used to run valid code then it can be used to run malicious code, and distinguishing between the 2 has proven to be an impossible task.
Just like booting services in listening state, even Apache has had several security vulns.
Same with outlook express, no amount of $200 security applications seem to be able to slow down 13 year olds making slight changes to someones VB code and owning windows machines with the same tricks over and over again. Lock down the mail client already.
This is basic common sense that MS has continued to fail to grasp.
Will they lost market share over it? I think they need to, but “Linux” (like desktop) seems to be as deff to usability issues as MS is to security issues.
I don’t think I’d want to go to a DOS based windows. I’d rather go to an NT clone which I know there are some being worked on at this very moment.
Yes because Apple gives away the complete unfettered source with a purchase..
I personally use Firefox whenever possible. Crucially, my technically inept parents use it and Mozilla Thunderbird without a problem.
When I encounter a website with browser compatibility problems, I always email the webmaster to detail the problem, request that they support standards and express my personal antipathy to Internet Explorer. I hope others will do the same.
It is being developed, and it is called ReactOS. Check http://www.reactos.org out.
Koki
Um, have you seen ReactOS? http://www.reactos.org it is regularly featured on this site.
He says the Mozilla suite makes you use its email client. Thats not true. The browser componant of the Mozilla suite works perfectly well with whatever email client you care to use, and I have in the past used it that way myself when I had to use Outlook to access an exchange server.
Of course, with Firefox now, using the suite as just a browser is no longer necessary.
That gives me an idea. A firefox add-on that allows users to submit web sites that don’t work to a central database. They just go to the site and click a button, answer a few questions and send in the report.
IE is already dead. The only reason it is still in use is no thanks to it being tied to the core of the operating system.
Anybody who know hows to install another browser, probably already has.
“Microsoft is opening itself up more to the public by allowing developers to blog and allowing more public exposure at their conferences I will say I was very disappointed in the chat. Microsoft totally ignored the issues and the questions that really mattered were deflected and basically passed on for something more that Microsoft wanted to talk about”
obviously. this is because Microsoft’s “community” endeavors are a knee-jerk reaction to the strengths shown by the Free / Open Source Software communities. they are trying to pretend they are community oriented since they feel that is perceived as a strength, but they aren’t community oriented. the are the same corporate, share-holder’s-best-ineterests minded entity they ever were. they are NOT community based and never will be until they fundamentally re-invent themselves. in the meantime they are hoping they can fool people with their charade that they too are a “community”. fall for it if you wish, but you’ll be falling for yet another Microsoft swindle.
Microsoft: be who you ARE. not who you think people want you to be. if you think what you are is not good enough, then change. don’t lie about who you are.
i swear, it’s like dealing with an immature teenager.
Um, yes.. I just forgot the name. I actually don’t keep a minute by minute track of every single OS developement but I knew that was in existence. =p
As weird as this is, I’m going to stick up for Microsoft on one point. OMG!!! I’m sticking up for MS!!! AAAAHHHH!!!
And that point is MS’s decision to develop new versions of IE for new versions of Windows. The reason why they would do that is probably so that IE could take advantage of underlying OS technology that would have to be back-ported to previous Windows versions for the new IE to function. In other words, IE 7 will no doubt require Longhorn because of tons of new APIs and functionality in Longhorn that aren’t in previous versions of Windows.
The reason I bring that up is because Apple is pursuing the exact same strategy with Safari. Major new versions of Safari come out with new versions of the OS, because new Mac OS X frameworks are required for Safari to work its latest magic. Of course, Apple’s aggressive OS upgrade speed means that new versions come out in much less time than anything from MS.
So my worry with IE’s future isn’t its integration with Longhorn. No, I can live with that. My beef with IE is that is that MS doesn’t give a **** about open standards. Until IE supports ALL of the latest W3C standards — and I mean ALL — to a T, until IE behaves like nearly ALL OTHER BROWSERS in regards to basic CSS code, until IE is designed so code written for it is no different than code written for other browsers and platforms, then IE is garbage as far as I’m concerned. I’m a professional Web developer, and IE is the bane of my existence. Never since the Netscape 4 have I encountered a more irritating browser to have to cater to. The only reason I don’t just say f**k it and not support IE is because I *have* to support IE. It’s 97% of the market (or something like that). It’s my job to support it. But I hate that. I resent that I have to cheat and write workarounds half the time to get IE to render perfectly reasonable XHTML/CSS pages. And even then it isn’t always perfect.
So MS, when will you get your act together and write a REAL modern Web browser? When hell freezes over and pigs fly?
Jared
isn’t the difference is that Apple’s Safari relies on frameworks in OS X, but Internet Explorer is essentially TIED into Windows?
is it possible to uninstall IE?
yep i agree…computer makers should just bundle windows XP and preinstall firefox on them. users won’t have to know that they’re not running IE.
although the disadvantage would be not having a friendly windows update. instead, one will have to go to this site and download the EXEs one by one, and install them one by one (heaven forbid they have to restart windows for every patch they install)
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/CurrentDL.aspx
You know when you uninstall IE, the only thing I can perceive it doing is removing all IE icons.
What if I do this and install an alternative browser that uses the IE rendering engine, eg. Maxthon Standard (formerly MyIE2), or Avant Browser.
Will I be my OS be slightly more secure?
What I do right now is use Firefox and turn the security settings to the High in IE. But then things like MSN Messenger don’t work correctly with such a security setting.
I can’t believe banks have standardised on IE, although I understand why. (MS bundling)
To Jared,
What possible technology could a rendering engine need from Longhorn.
If they want they could tie the interface to Longhorn but they should make the engine portable so that developers of web browsers who use the IE engine could make use of the new rendering technology.
That is if MS will ever implement the major web developers requests.
To Jared,
Sorry I didn’t fully read your post
Yes, I do that too. I think that we need to start copying marketing, management etc, etc and not just the webmaster.
Basically the webmaster may look at the email, look at his webstats and say this guy is just some zealot. He/She will just ignore the email.
But if we email Management/Marketing etc and enlighten them on standards and the fact we can’t view their site and therefore won’t use their product and also encourage our friends to avoid the site until it supports web standards, we may be more effective. It cannot be ignored by some webmaster anymore.
Good point,
I always write to or call wbemasters to ask why it does not work, and as far as banks are concerns I call them and call them again until they accept other browsers.
When I see that turning on debug and asking Safari to behave as msie6 sometimes suffice to get it to work, it really gets me climbing walls.
Phil
Several posts have indicated that if you have a different default browser, somehow Windows update will cease to function correctly.
This is horseshit.
Take for example:
“although the disadvantage would be not having a friendly windows update. instead, one will have to go to this site and download the EXEs one by one, and install them one by one (heaven forbid they have to restart windows for every patch they install)”
It is utter nonsense. Just because IE is no longer the default browser, it doens’t mean you can’t use Windows Update. I haven’t used IE in 2 years, except for Windows Update.
Having a different web browser set as the default doesn’t magically break IE’s ability to access Windows Update. For Windows XP users, the answer is even more simple…there is a “Windows Update” icon sitting in “All Programs” toward the top. Guess what it does…it launches IE and sends it to Windows Update…regardless of what web browser you have set to your default.
Now, stop these lies that say that using a different browser will break Windows Update…it doesn’t. If you want to visit Windows Update, then hit the Windows Update icon. Hell, you can even have Windows Update run in the background. You don’t need to run IE as your regular web browser.
“But if we email Management/Marketing etc and enlighten them on standards and the fact we can’t view their site and therefore won’t use their product and also encourage our friends to avoid the site until it supports web standards, we may be more effective. It cannot be ignored by some webmaster anymore.”
That is exactly what I did with jasc.com. I told them that because they had designed their site (at the time) to only have their flyout menus work with IE, that I couldn’t properly navigate their web site, and thus, I as a user of their products for several years was going to start looking at their competitor’s sites for their products. If they can’t support web standards, then I have no interest in their products. Shortly after I wrote them (I think it was only a matter of weeks), the jasc web site was totally redesigned and friendly to Mozilla based browsers.
“When I see that turning on debug and asking Safari to behave as msie6 sometimes suffice to get it to work, it really gets me climbing walls”
I had the same experience with some web site that claimed to be a group of web development professionals. They claimed that I must use IE and that Mozilla based browsers will not work. So I changed my user agent setting using a Firefox extension to mimic IE6. I went back to the site, and guess what, everything worked just fine. I even checked it side by side with crapass IE6 and the two were the same.
I then wrote them and questioned how they could possibly claim that they were web development professionals if they couldn’t know that what they built worked with Firefox, or that they were even really testing for standards compliance anyway. I cited what I did and that their notification that the site was IE only was total crap. That was around a year ago I think…they haven’t replied.
I still don’t see any problems in using IE myself– I’ve tried all alternatives but I keep comming back to IE. I really don’t know why, might have to do with it being very fast (can’t deny that).
As for mail, I use Thunderbird. But only because I modded it to look like Mail.app.
Have you ever even used another browser because, IE has to be one of the slowest there is! Honest, try using opera, or Firebird, these alternatives are much faster than IE. Give it a shot, have an open mind. There is a world beyond Microsoft, I’ve seen it…and it is good!
Uhm–dude, as I said, tried and used them all… I just like IE best.
I sometimes get annoyed when people flame me for liking IE. It’s like it’s a taboo or something to say: I like IE!
But anyways I use FireFox on my BeOS install.
I just discovered mozilla / firefox plugins, and they are great!!
A few links:
http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/
http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,64085,00.html
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/08/1244212&mode=nested&tid…
(checkout slashdot’s comments for more cool plugins).
Now I have installed: Jump Link, Linky, Adblock, Dictionarysearch, Nuke Anything, Single Window, and Magpie.
Check them out, you won’t be dissapointed.
Funny how Microsoft spreads halflies and everbody believes in it.
The myth that the IE is in the core of the operating system and therefore cannot be removed is a lie by Microsoft, which was used to prevent the unbundeling of the IE from Windows (and hence the opening of doors for other browsers)
The truth is, that the core IE is only an ActiveX control, somehwat tied into the operating system, like other ActiveX controls. Some applications function as containers for this control.
Mainly the whole list of problematic applications, Internet Explorer (the frame application), explorer (which easily could live without the IE control), outlook and outlook express and several other programs.
But thats basically it. It has been proven that the IE can be removed, but Microsoft does not want it, because a defacto monopoly on the Web basically means they can take slowly over the official standards and replace them with proprietary solutions and therefore tie huge parts of the internet to Windows.
Why are IT managers going to get Mozilla/Firefox installed as the default browser on all of their clients. You think that they would understand now that they are endangering the security of their entire network by leaving IE as the default browser.
For most corporate intranets Firefox can now access eveything unless they have been stupid enough use active-x in their apps. I know I can use Firefox for all the intranet apps where I work. I submit PWC Research Manager timesheets, search the Filemaker Pro telephone book, access the corporate SOPs and finally I can access the corporate Oracle databases. If anything they work better with Firefox 0.9 than IE6.
After the last IE security fiasco I emailed everyone in my department that for safety they should use Firefox instead of IE. I also cc’d the IT manager responsible for our department’s network servers and the desktop support staff. In the email I also pointed out that using Mozilla based browser would make sense as corporate IT policy. Of course its not up to them, its not even up to our IT derector – its up to Global IT management to make that decision. Eventually I think IT management in medium to large corporations will get a clue – might take some time though (hell they are getting it about Oracle on Linux !).
I think part of it is the extra work. To your average IT manager, I suspect Firefox is hard to install and manage compared to IE. Let’s face it, IE is already embedded in the OS (bad though this is), and you can’t set domain/group policies etc via the Active Directory (even though there’s probably no need to, unlike IE). In addition, Firefox is still not at 1.0, while Mozilla is slooow and looks shocking with its ugly Modern theme. So unless they think outside the square, the IT people are probably going to stick with the devil they know.
Just a reminder of where we are now:
It’s 2004, and:
-we have MSN Messenger routinely ignoring your default browser choice WHY?
-We have Windows Updates that can only be downloaded with IE easily. WHY?
-We have MSN Messenger tightly integrated with both Messenger and Outlook Express (anyone ever try to shut one down with the other running??) (WHY?)
Anyway…
I read & thought this opinion piece was badly written and came across as a rushed rant to me, BUT I agree with some points the author brought up – notably the control MS wants over their users in order to maintain and leverage their monopolies. That is the message we must take home from this piece, I reckon. That said, I was expecting to hear more about the chat he attended.
In typical Microsoft “community” fashion (which I’m surprised nobody has brought up yet), trying to enter their “Windows XP Expert Zone” chats by going to link in the article at the top of the page disallows firefox access and apparently only allows Netscape 4.x browser access (no later browsers), and only with an optional program you need to download to obtain access with that browser. Surprise surprise.
In addition, in Firefox, the instructions they give appear to download said program appear in a very tiny font (by default). Hard to believe a multi-billion dollar company can’t afford a good webmaster to let the “community” in on their little chat, isn’t it?
I wish I had a dollar for every time they pulled this stunt on their sites. In fact, news recently revealed (in May, 2004) that Microsoft settled a huge sum with Opera software over their dirty tricks regarding interoperability with their browser, which proves what they were up to, if these tactics are coming across as news to anybody.
See:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Microsoft+Opera+payment
Microsoft want to leverage their ill-gotten monopoly on operating systems and use it to move into new markets. First step in the plan is making IE all-prevalent (easy to do with a Windows monopoly, this step is already done), and using it to control & stifle web standards (which they’re already doing, thanks to their userbase which webmasters much support), and ignoring W3C recommendations aimed at fair and universal interoperability.
I’d hate to see a closed-off web under the control of one huge company, wouldn’t you? And yet we are already seeing it in these early days. In the end, would mean controlling more than your choice of browser, people, as we can see is already happening…
Jason (IP: —.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net):
Several posts have indicated that if you have a different default browser, somehow Windows update will cease to function correctly.
————-
Several posts where? I see none in the comments so far.
Eugenia, you really need to work over the grammar quality in these articles. The author had some interesting points to think about. However, the points he was trying to bring to attention were submerged by English that even a primary school student would be ashamed. I’ve seen some bad journalistic grammar these days, but this one takes the cake!
> What if I do this and install an alternative browser that
> uses the IE rendering engine, eg. Maxthon Standard (formerly
> MyIE2), or Avant Browser.
Um, hello, the problem is the browing engine, anything that uses IE is going to be exactly the same.
Just use Firefox. What’s so hard to understand?
Damien
Im not a native english speaker, Im hispanic. If you wish to help me improve my grammer and English do send a proof-read copy and show me where the mistakes are. I cant dramatically improve it overnight so bear with me.
> The only reason I don’t just say f**k it and not support IE
> is because I *have* to support IE. It’s 97% of the market
> (or something like that). It’s my job to support it.
I’m a web developer too and I don’t actively support anything older than IE 5.5. If something doesn’t work with 5.0 I don’t fuss.
One thing I do is I detect what the browser is – if it is one of a predefined list of known crappy browsers I notify the user with a link to an informational page listing why older browsers are bad and recommending replacements.
Damien
> although the disadvantage would be not having a friendly
> windows update. instead, one will have to go to this site
> and download the EXEs one by one,
Firefox has a built-in updater tool both for the browser itself and extensions.
Damien
If you are going to write to sales/marketing people about incompatible websites, the “I refuse to use your site because it is IE only” line may make you look like a zealot. Try using something like “How is your company doing so well that it can turn away one in twenty potential customers? And what is the cost of fixing the site against an extra 5% sales?”.
We need to speak to these people in a way that makes the dodgy website their issue, not ours. If we make it clear that they can make extra money from us by doing very little work (assuming no ActiveX or anything Microsoft-only stuff on the site), they probably will be interested in fixing their site.
Okay. Here are several things you can tell new computer users.
1. You can purchase computers that a “nude”; operating system free and thereby IE (pronounced: “Iyyyyyyyeeeeee”) free.
2. If you “must” have the “Redmond platform” then you can, to a high degree, remove crap from the platform like IE using LitePC at http://www.litepc.com.
3. Point them to websites like Marcel Gagne’s; http://www.marcelgagne.com or pick one of his books Moving to Linux. It is extrememly informative and comes with a fully functional Knoppix Live-CD. Start them off using KDE and its browser.
Troy
Eugenia, you really need to work over the grammar quality in these articles. The author had some interesting points to think about. However, the points he was trying to bring to attention were submerged by English that even a primary school student would be ashamed. I’ve seen some bad journalistic grammar these days, but this one takes the cake!
Yes,actually I have a suggestion.As the author of the article says,he’s hispanic.Therefore,for people like wolf_wire which cannot stand grammar faults, I suggest to post them in Spanish.How many languages do you speak wolf_wire?It is not enough for you that the author(s) of the articles here strive to come with their best English for us to enjoy their writings?I find these comments if not idiotic,then at least pathetic.Get a life for Christ sake!Or a job,whatever.
I enjoy every darn article here on OSNews and I don’t give a damn about grammar faults because the message they send is clear to me.Is all about communication,not decomposing and analyzing Byron’s poems.
” isn’t the difference is that Apple’s Safari relies on frameworks in OS X, but Internet Explorer is essentially TIED into Windows?
is it possible to uninstall IE? ”
I do not know if this is true or not so dont quote me but if anyone has any info it might be helpful. I have actually heard that Apple did start a port of Safari to Windows but havent heard anything official or whether the product was cancelled if they even started. But the point is, if this is true doesnt that blow your argument out of the water that Safari is tied into Mac OS.
As for the IE issue on whether Microsoft can remove it or not. I believe they can, I never believed that they couldnt but an example of this is platform builder that they use to build Windows CE. It gives you the option of whether to remove or keep IE, watch Channel 9:
http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=11017
I know Microsoft uses a similar tool to build Windows, so I do not see how if they remove the browser from Windows it will make Windows unusable, I think they used that argument as a way to pout at their AT trial. At my job I have pretty much blocked Internet Explorer from accessing the internet and we have installed Firefox as our default and I removed access from IE. As I stated tho, if Microsoft improves the quality and security of IE I may revisit and reasess my policies.
Your post came across as just a little bit retarded. You cannot find a fault with the content of the article, so instead you point out the grammer mistakes and compare the author to a primary school student.
No matter what your MTV tells you, not everyone is american… and I would thank God for that, but I am an atheist
The author was writing the article for an English speaking audience, even though English is not his first language. give the guy a break and stop being so anal.
Has anyone tried using LitePc?
http://www.litepc.com/xplite.html
webkit is installed by default with os x, yes. webkit is now required in panther by several applications including help.app, and mail.app. however unlike internet explorer you can drag safari to the trash and it’s GONE. you still keep the rendering engine as a framework though so the embedded applications don’t bork.
whereas IE is tied heavily into windows explorer. you just really can’t have one without the other.
it’s fairly easy in os x to even replace the finder. see pathfinder, a finder replacement for os x.
You can delete iexplore.exe too; it still leaves MSHTML in place. I fail to see how this is any different to deleting Safari but leaving the rendering engine… Unless I’m missing something.
What an excellent and concise article. I was almost hoping for more run on.
He did miss one intersting point, though he kind of touched on it. The idea of patching IE when its integrated into windows. It HAS to then require a restart. Other browsers, you can just upgrade.
I’m really not sure what MSs strategy is for more integration. I honestly don’t mind them bundling IE, or even not allowing me to uninstall it (As it allows other programs to count on the existence of an installed known browser that they can test with). In either case, maybe it will be revealed to me in time. They must work in mysterious ways.
IE is one of the only MS products that really really lacks. Its just not usable, and unfortunately, by trying to hide the complexity, it makes it more complex. Take say msn messenger. Now, there are many other IMs out there with all kinds of other features( groups within groups, overriding your friends weird MSN name with something you know)…but in all honestly, those just add complications. MS removed them, and msn messenger is still largely useful and does what it’s intended for. The same can be said of virtually all other MS products.
IE on the other hand…has a plethora of security related options, trusted zones…which MS has tried to make simple, but really just overcomplicates it. Not to mention its hard to manage installed components.
I guess we’ll see what the next IE looks like.
I do.
I use the trial version to unlock “redmond platform” file protection after a clean-and-pristine install, remove cr@pware like mess-inger and its ilkware, and eliminate excess bloat that is not needed for my offline labs.
Once I have finished refining the new install, done the with the mappings, completed loading our educational software, I then use an excellent product named Deep Freeze to keep this install as I wish it to be. My “redmond platform” calls have been reduced to almost zero. I still get an occasional hardware issue. My focus is back on maintaining the integrity of the servers, its centralized software, the data it houses, and patching and updating the “redmond platform” 2003.
Students in the online, read Internet-capable classrooms, being the students they are, always look so innocent while they install their messenger and yahoo. Then when they come back the next day, boot up the clients, they give me a puzzled look. I love it.
Troy
We use Firefox in our office but with some banks that we we do business with we got problems with their websites using Firefox. Rabobank.nl is a great example of this. I have called them several times to question why they do not support other browser than IE and the general answer is that it (IE) is the standard web browser that anyone is using and their website is optimized for IE, and of discussion. So if even some banks do not want to support the alternatives…is going to be a hard battle.
The best thing to do is to spread the word.
“We use Firefox in our office but with some banks that we we do business with we got problems with their websites using Firefox. Rabobank.nl is a great example of this. I have called them several times to question why they do not support other browser than IE and the general answer is that it (IE) is the standard web browser that anyone is using and their website is optimized for IE, and of discussion. So if even some banks do not want to support the alternatives…is going to be a hard battle.”
On which websites? Using Rabobank.nl with Epiphany, Firefox and Mozilla for my daily banking i haven’t ran into problems. Sure, i get a warning that i have to use MSIE but that’s ignored. Sure, the system is sometimes down but that’s not for me alone. In short, my browsers run perfect on the website.
Now try makro.nl …
…that Microsoft hasn’t come out with IE 7 or 8 by now. However, I think IE is better than Mozilla.
If you lock down IE’s security settings you can eliminate all spyware and pop-ups from your machine. It’s very easy and it only takes a few minutes.
I have been running my locked down version of IE for 4 months now and I run spybot and ad-aware once a week and I have yet to clean up any spyware.
These security settings also apply to outlook…
mozilla only doesn’t work with external mail programs <- LIE !
Besides Netscape 4.x, I mean. 🙂
How does your browser detection logic handle a fairly uncommon browser like Links or NetPositive?
As a user of many strange browsers which generally seem to work well, I’ve had a number of bad experiences with “browser detection” attempts, which is why I’m a little concerned…
Thanks!
The last several months I have heard all kinds of whining from MS and the MS-activist about the Apple iPod and it’s a closed market. Any person buying into the iPod one-way street will take you nowhere. At the same time they tell us that MS is so open to users and developers. When buying into MS, users have more options.
Explorer is a classic example of the business at MS. They come to the party late, promise the world and then give little! After owning the market MS gives even less and cries when someone is beating them on innovation. Then they hide behind the “closed market excuse”. They don’t tell us that many of the products they sell are “closed markets”.
There are so many great software products that run circles around Explorer. But when MS owns the bat, ball, home plate, all the bases, the ballpark and everything else what’s the motivation for MS? What really annoys me is they are sitting on billions of dollars.
We all created this monster (MS) and its so much fun living with it!
WMD
The really BIG question is WHY do people continue to use MSIE knowing full well it has a barrel of issues?
It’s not so much Windows being a security nightmare, it’s more about the damn browser that is married to it being a complete disaster.
It’s Firefox for me until hell freezes over, or MS gets their act together.
Its not the hardware thats at fault (ok, well sometimes it is with the uber cheap dells) but the majority of the blame lies with the OS.
My 6 year old machine doesn’t crash, doesn’t hang, and I’ve got a great UI in Gnome. About the only thing I don’t have is IE (which is a good thing, except when I have to do web design), and a couple of games, and buying a mac wouldn’t fix that.
> Besides Netscape 4.x, I mean. 🙂
I use a very basic series of switch/case statements to determine if something is naughty. The current naughty list includes:
IE <= 5.0
Netscape <= 6.2
WebTV
There are others I intend adding: the AmigaOS (& clone) browsers, Konqueror <= v3, etc, basically older stuff.
I’m also considering adding Firefox < $current_version, ditto for Mozilla, and blanketting all IE and not just the older ones. The error message is completely unintrustive and is not shown for visitors with better browsers.
People often are not concerned with security regarding their computers, or simply don’t even consider it. The fact that an IE flaw recently allowed a cracker group in Russia obtain a list of account logins is potentially a serious problem for our company as we’re attempting to move all customer service & sales to our website – we obviously would be concerned if this happened to a member and would want to protect both us and our members.
> How does your browser detection logic handle a fairly
> uncommon browser like Links or NetPositive?
It skips them, the list is hardcoded to detect browsers that _are_ naughty (cleaner) vs detecting ones that aren’t (requires constant updating).
Damien
> Konqueror <= v3
Should have been:
Konqueror < v3
Damien
OK, let me preface this by saying I do not like Microsoft: I do not like their predatory business practices, I do not like their (often) substandard products. As a web developer, IE’s lack of even a correct CSS1 implementation (after 7 years) is a huge frustration and causes me financial harm. So I am biased.
But I think what Microsoft is doing is smart … and it is the same thing Apple is doing with Safari. And to a lesser degree, the same thing Mozilla is doing with Gecko.
The web browser application, and the HTML rendering engine separately, are *must-have* components for any OS. Who would buy a computer if they couldn’t browse the web? Then think of all the apps that depend on a consistent UI for rendering HTML … i.e. MS Word for Windows, the most widely used app of them all. Think of what Apple is doing with Dashboard and other technologies, divorcing web content from the web browser and making it available even to unsophisticated developers creating very simple apps.
These things are requirements. They have to be part of the OS.
Apple is already doing what Microsoft is doing.
My Mac runs OS 10.2.8. It has Safari 1.0.2 on it. Can I upgrade to the version of Safari that comes with Panther? No. I have to buy and install Panther. When Tiger comes out, same deal. Safari 1.0.2 still has significant rendering bugs that have been fixed in subsequent changes to KHTML … but I don’t get them. I have to upgrade the whole OS.
This is great for Apple. When you have a problem, you tell them what OS you have, they know what version Safari (and what KHTML rendering engine) your OS has. It’s great for developers too. They have fewer APIs and other variables to worry about.
Microsoft is doing the same thing with Longhorn. Only Microsoft has an even better reason … people out there are using IE 4, 5, 5.5, 6 and all sorts of versions in between. They are running Windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME, NT4, 2000, XP Home, XP Professional. Too many variables. Too expensive to support.
The author suggests that Longhorn will come out, and IT managers will delay deploying it until it is absolutely needed by the enterprise. I agree. The author says this will allow an opening for Firefox, Opera, KHTML et al. It will. But these browsers will not “take over.”
The same conservative IT managers that right now block their users from installing applications (because it isn’t safe, because Windows isn’t secure, because there’s lots of spyware and malware out there) aren’t going to make an exception for Firefox. Because they (the IT managers) don’t want to have to support another whole application they don’t have to.
Replacing IE with Firefox isn’t possible. It’s part of the OS. Windows Update requires it. ‘Nuff said.
Browsers like Firefox (which I love) will a minority as long as Microsoft has > 50% of the desktop OS market share (and now it has > 95% *and growing*). And eventually (even if it’s 2010) every Windows desktop will be running Longhorn or higher. Those desktops will all have Longhorn browser components built in. Windows apps like Word and Outlook will all use these components, whether you install a 3rd-party browser or not.
The author blames web developers for the fact that IE is dominant. That’s completely backwards.
I have to make pages that work in IE. It’s the browser that everybody uses.
I can’t make pages that work in IE *and* Firefox *and* Opera without expending a huge amount of time and putting in a lot of ugly browser detection and hacks, because these browsers’ rendering engines are just incompatible. And my clients aren’t going to pay for that … they just want their sites to “work.” These are people who don’t know that Firefox even exists.
And who’s fault is that? Netscape/Mozilla’s! For not creating a usable web browser for *six years*. It Netscape 5 had come out in 1998 or ’99 and been *better than IE*, some people would still be using it today. If Netscape 6 had come out in ’00 or ’01 and been *better than IE*, some people would be using it today. Ditto for Netscape 7 and 8.
But instead, these browsers were never released. Netscape 6 came out in 2002, and it was awful. Slow. Weird-looking. Didn’t render sites correctly. Maybe in 2005 we’ll finally see Firefox 1.0 or some other stable browser that’s finally better than IE.
“…that Microsoft hasn’t come out with IE 7 or 8 by now. However, I think IE is better than Mozilla.
If you lock down IE’s security settings you can eliminate all spyware and pop-ups from your machine. It’s very easy and it only takes a few minutes.
I have been running my locked down version of IE for 4 months now and I run spybot and ad-aware once a week and I have yet to clean up any spyware.
These security settings also apply to outlook…”
Personally, I am amazed that you haven’t run into something as of yet (course, who knows…maybe you have and it hasn’t been detected).
The security issue asside (that’s a big asside), IE still doesn’t support web standards fully, doesn’t support PNG correcly, and deosn’t offer tabbed browsing (a feature that I didn’t like at first, but couldn’t imagine being without today – it just makes my development workflow so much faster).
If you’re happy with IE, enjoy. I don’t know that that will continue though since you will have to upgrade your OS just to get a refreshed IE.
I haven’t seen much speculation about why exactly Microsoft is letting Internet Explorer lag behind so much compared to other browsers. The obvious answer is that with such dominance Microsoft can afford to be complacent. Well I have two more suggestions, neither of them original:
1. Technologically, IE can not be improved. Microsoft have hit a ceiling whereby the browser can not be improved without a major overhaul. This is a similar scenario that Netscape ran in to with version 4.x. Also, in line with the integration with the operating system, and in particular with Windows Explorer, tabbed browsing can not be added.
2. Microsoft would like to dominate the field of rich client applications, through .Net. Rich web browser technology, including but not limited to XUL, offers an open alternative to .Net, and so it makes sense that Microsoft in it’s dominant position with web technology would discourage progress in brower technology.
My general rule is that if a site does not perform correctly in FireFox on Linux is that I did not want to visit it anyway. However, I usually will leave a note to the sited manager if possible complaining about the fact as well.
One other note: I have found that over the last 6 months that the sites that do not render and work correctly for the Mozilla browsers has been declining.
“I can’t make pages that work in IE *and* Firefox *and* Opera without expending a huge amount of time and putting in a lot of ugly browser detection and hacks, because these browsers’ rendering engines are just incompatible. And my clients aren’t going to pay for that … they just want their sites to “work.” These are people who don’t know that Firefox even exists.”
That’s funny, I haven’t had a problem doing that, and I too am a professional web developer. I don’t even use browser detection…haven’t needed it.
i cant remember where i stole this from, but here it is again:
after IE 2 microsoft really poured a lot of effort into the browser war. up until ie5, ie was catching up. up until their “marketting advantage” (ie: its already on your computer) and whatever other consumer advantages caught up and made ie the reigning champ.
word is the IE dev team was huge, and pouring out tons of new ideas and concepts. but microsoft realized that making a better web browser, a web app capable browser, was not in their best interest. that it was inherently a non-lock in situation, unlike their api, and thus they pretty much shut down the IE team. work was scrapped, great future plans they’d been ranting about were burned off the radar and no one was the wiser.
what, three, four, five years latter, we sit and wonder, isnt microsoft over due for an IE7?
it seems to me like web standards have begun to stagnate a bit.
I’ve read a couple of passing comment on how Lindows/Linspire tee’s people off because they don’t OEM the browser on board or some other OS (linux – the other windows clone) religous nonsense that really isn’t grounded in reality.
Here’s the 411. Most people don’t care. They really don’t. 95% of people look at the PC as an appliance that “turns on” and “does stuff”. They really couldn’t care less about the desktop or the browser. They just want the simple things; porno, games, send someone an email and sometimes get some work done.
IE may really suck at security, but you know what? Who cares? Am I the only technician that actually MAKES money cleaning computers. I don’t condone the fact that script kiddies are running around making little nasties, but you know at $50 an hour to fix someone’s PC and update their virus checker it’s not such a bad gig. For extra 25 I’ll even clean all that nasty spyware off too.
I realise that with linux hanging around out there with all sorts of security wrapped into it’s browser. Everyone is really excited about the whole thing, which is understandable. What I don’t understand is how any money is going to made by anyone.
I see all these reports about the loss of data-blah-blah-blah. What most of these reports never get into detail about is what type of data gets wiped and if your data is REALLY that important then back it up. (I charge $45 per DVD of backup, for an extra $35 I’ll make a ghost image for you with a boot disk to recover the system) To tell you what most of the folks I help have on their system it’s pretty easy and goes in this order.
MP3’s (funny how they have 10000 songs and own no CD’s)
Jokes
Porno (sometimes it pays to not look, home made pics of fat people getting it on…ugh…damn windows preview)
Games (warez)
Recipes from websites (why save it? It’s still on the website!)
Mail folders (largest so far has been 14 GB, 90% of which is jokes from Mom and Dad and porno of fat people getting it on)
oh well, I’m rambling…to summarize. Poor browser security makes $$$ and if it’s really that important back it up. Before the flaming starts, remember you’re all techies (I assume) and have a responsibilty to your communities to help remove the twenties and tens from their respective wallets while providing good advice. if that advice is to change the browser then be prepared to explain it in simple english using porno flash cards to keep your client’s attention.
“what, three, four, five years latter, we sit and wonder, isnt microsoft over due for an IE7?”
Yes, and it is coming in Longhorn.
“it seems to me like web standards have begun to stagnate a bit.”
Web standards haven’t stagnated at all…just IE.
I’m visiting my Brother. He is not a computer superuser like myself. He complained about all the spyware and addware on his PC. He bought a professional firewall program and a professional addware remover. It still didn’t work very well.
I installed Mozilla Firefox for him. Bada boom, bada bing, He and his wife picked it up in less than a minute. The do not get any addware/spyware. The do need to use IE to access some sights.
It is funny whenever they open IE to access a specific site, the popups just start happening and the firewall goes beserk. This is the first time I’ve experienced something as bad as this. I thought I was being paraniod by using something other than IE. I’m glad I do.
Because IE was born in another epoch, when the Internet boon was just happening. It had to fight its way up, dooming netscape. IE was integrated in all Windows, which means that if Microsft had to release an update, it would have to support all the other legacy Windows (not the latest version), which would mean support for older Windows, diminishing the value of the latest versions that Microsoft wish everyone should buy and use. IE 6 was probably the latest version of IE that supported NT4, Windows ME and Windows 98, and maybe, Windows 2000. Microsoft still has some duty to support Windows XP, as it is already one of the OSs that is rent.
Once Longhorn is released, Microsoft intends to have much technology in place that a standard Browser like IE, will lose power and necessity, dying in the process.
“I can’t make pages that work in IE *and* Firefox *and* Opera without expending a huge amount of time and putting in a lot of ugly browser detection and hacks, because these browsers’ rendering engines are just incompatible. And my clients aren’t going to pay for that … they just want their sites to “work.” These are people who don’t know that Firefox even exists.”
Get yourself a copy of Zeldman’s “Designing with web standards”. Quick!
I’m visiting my parents, they have a computer running Windows 98 with IE 5 on it and a version of McAfee virus shield that’s subscription ran out two years ago. I visit Windows Update, they have over 50 critical updates, plus plenty of other regular updates that need to be applied (I don’t apply any of them). I download AdAware and SpyBot and AVG Anti Virus. I run all of those and all it found was one data mining cookie. Nothing else. They regularly surf the web. My father is the guy that clicks on the banner to punch the monkey to win a prize. My sisters surf the web and download music. Nothing at all wrong with their computer. The same can be said for most others I know. I know a lot of people do have problems but at the same time there’s a lot that don’t. Most people’s lives don’t revolve around computers. You ask them what OS they’re running you’ll get a blank look. Rephrase the question to “Are you running Windows?” and they’ll nod yes. Browser, who cares. Email client, who cares. Does the computer do the minimal things I need it to do…yep. Good uptime? Who cares, shut it off when it’s not being used. Not everyone gets a virus, worm, exploited, etc. Would most people benefit from using another browser, maybe; but IE does make a lot of stuff easy even though it’s because of its insecurity. Visit a flash site, popup says you need the latest version of flash. Click OK, it downloads and automatically installs; the animation starts showing, you keep browsing. Do that in FireFox you get taken to the download site where you download an executable that you have to manually install, restart the browser, surf back to the site you were on. Go to shockwave.com; same thing, get the plugin, start playing games. While the unscrupulous use this to install spyware, it makes your average joe doesn’t want to know how to use a computer’s life simpler.
I think IE is perfectly safe, just follow one simple rule.
Never ever use it on a computer that you intend to connect to the INTERNET.
We have decided that next time Windows croaks on our home computer which it does every few months, we will load Linux and just live with the pain.
IE is ok at work where there are serious security systems to protect it.
It is at home on broadband that IE shows its true colours.
We all like Microsoft Office and we will miss it, but IE is too insecure to tolerate in the house any longer – so goodbye Microsoft.
“We have decided that next time Windows croaks on our home computer which it does every few months, we will load Linux and just live with the pain.
IE is ok at work where there are serious security systems to protect it.
It is at home on broadband that IE shows its true colours.
We all like Microsoft Office and we will miss it, but IE is too insecure to tolerate in the house any longer – so goodbye Microsoft.”
I don’t get it…why would you do this? If you will “miss Microsoft Office” and your whole concern is that it is IE, why not just stop using IE…especially since loading Linux will result in having to “live with the pain.”
Using Linux, you are still going to have to change your browser, which is probably much of the problem to begin with…IE just plain sucks. Why not just change your browser now instead of having to deal with migrating to a different OS, change the browser anyway, learn how everything in Linux works (steep learning curve to most), and then lose the applications that you like such as office. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
I can get in the Rabobank site now problem but to do actually payments is impossible.
MS isn’t making any money on it, and it’s no longer attached to a corporate vision that will expand microsoft’s userbase. The vision that MS had for IE, becoming the platform for the internet, failed because ActiveX did not have the necessary security infrastructure behind it and was perhaps not easy enough to implement. With .NET, MS finally has what it needs to try again at dominating the internet.
On the other hand, IE is not really in need of too much. It now has a cookie blocker, popup blocker and a more sensible system to authorize ActiveX controls as of SP2. All it needs are more security fixes and some changes to MSHTML.dll to boost standards compliance. “Tabbed Browsing” and “Gestures” are red-herrings since few people, on the grand scale, actually would use those features. Those who would use them (like me), are happily working with Firefox or Opera.
We have decided that next time Windows croaks on our home computer which it does every few months, we will load Linux and just live with the pain.
The pain will be short lived! — I have done this for several people – for the first week – they want to kill me. The second week they say that they may just be able to get along it if they must. By the third week they are saying “hay, this aint too bad after all”. By the end of the fourth week – I usually get a call saying “This is much better than Windows, why didn’t you get me to switch sooner!”
The latest round of sneak attacks on IE (the russian one) infected many of the computers at our work site. This is behind a very tight corporate firewall, with Nortan AV loaded and doing realtime scans, and with Zone Alarm Pro configured to high settings.
You see all of these saw IE doing what IE is allowed to do, connect over HTTP, write to the CACHE directory and RUN LOCAL PROGRAMS without user interaction.
Well I use Firefox, even at work, and only one internal site I use blocks me because it uses Active-X.
I like Linux, I just will not switch a non-tech home user to Linux. I have gone down that road and it was not a pleasant experience. I will wait foir Linux to mature some more before I do that. If you use OpenOffice you will have some major presentation and spreadsheet problems. I suggest you study up on them and find out the best ways to make the switch, dont let your kids do their final school projects just yet on Openoffice until you learn it. For me Office has been dead for awhile, I use OpenOffice on my Windows, Linux, and Solaris machines. I use AppleWorks with my Mac. I made the switch at work for everyone, the default Office suite is OpenOffice on all platforms. Some of my clients still use MS Office so I really have to dumb down the slides and spreadsheets to keep it looking professional.
Thats a bummer man, i really hate it for ya. I am very lucky, one of my interns brought it in with his Laptop but the way our network is set up if any virus infected machines try to hook into our network we automatically throw them off.
“Tabbed Browsing” and “Gestures” are red-herrings since few people, on the grand scale, actually would use those features.
I disagree. Once someone tries tabs (and, to a lesser degree, mouse gestures) they tend to keep on using it. I know I couldn’t live without tabs anymore.
Mouse gestures I’ve only recently begun to use, and I can see them growing on me. I think these are two good examples of “innovation” that didn’t come from MS…
http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm
They don’t have a version for latest FireFox yet, though.
Roberto, I believe I read an excerpt of a chat with the IE project lead where he said MS would consider including tabbed browsing in the next version of IE. If a question of yours about tabbed browsing was ignored, perhaps it was because they felt the answer was already available to the public.
I use Opera myself, though.