Apple announced three new dual-CPU Power Mac G5 configurations, with the fastest model topping out at 2.5GHz using liquid-cooling. The new high-end systems miss the 3GHz mark that Apple CEO Steve Jobs said the company would achieve at last year’s WWDC, but Tom Boger, Apple’s Director of Power Mac Product Marketing said it came down to a technology challenge that was bigger than they expected. Boger also said today that users shouldn’t expect to see a PowerBook G5 before the end of the year because of the challenges of putting the G5 in a small enclosure, and also hinted difficulties to put it on an iMac. Also, Apple discontinued the remaining G4 Power Macs while released iTunes 4.6.
New G5s Announced; No 3GHz or G5 Laptops/iMacs ‘Any Time Soon’
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Says it all really.
Is it just me or does it sound like they’re using the old motherboard for the 1.8GHz systems while using a new one for the new 2.0 and 2.5s? The reason I think this is that only the two higher systems have PCI-X, making the 1.8 sounding exactly the same as the older models.
As others have said, if they’re not making too much of a fuss over the Airport Express or new G5 launches, and announcing them early, what on earth are we going to see at WWDC?
Damien
I know people are upset (just check out the comments at http://www.macrumors.com) but the cpu upgrades aren’t that bad, considering they are all dualies. The problem I see is that you have pretty low end graphics cards in these new machines. I mean, FX 5200 Ultras? Come on! The ATI 9600XT is only $50 more. They should have just put those in.
predicted that ibm/apple would not be able to introduce g5 by july 2004. they seem vindicated.
personally, i hope that apple introduces os x on a 100% legacy free, re-written from the ground-up for fast performance and multimedia, amd64 (by legacy free i mean no ata-100, sata only, no serial parrallel ps/2, no pci just pci-express, no bios just EFI, etc.,
> The problem I see is that you have pretty low end graphics cards
Videogames count very little among Mac users. Graphic designers, musicians, video artists and scientisst are probably already happy with the current graphic configuration of their machines.
“Videogames count very little among Mac users.”
You’d be surprised. I am a Mac user and many of my friends are and we all game on the the Mac. It can be a very good gaming machine. Halo and UT2004 play extremely well (assuming the right equipment).
Still, the point is, for only $50 more they could have put in a better card which would satisfy designers and gamers alike. It sucks spending $2000 or more on a new machine and then have to pay more to put in a better graphics card.
No need for fancy 3d stuff. I and most people mostly use 2d apps in their everyday life. I would like to see Matrox coming back, they are pretty decent on 2D cards.
Ludo
—
http://homepage.mac.com/softkid/PhotoAlbum6.html
> I am a Mac user and many of my friends are and we all game
> on the the Mac
Philip Schiller, Apple’s senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing, declared today: “Our professional customers, across many creative and scientific markets, have been impressed with the extraordinary performance of the dual processor Power Mac G5 running Apple’s Unix-based Mac OS X”.
I think this is not the usual marketing fluff: G5s aren’t currently oriented towards hardcore gamers. Reserve your complaints for the iMac G5 delayed release…
“Videogames count very little among Mac users. Graphic designers, musicians, video artists and scientisst are probably already happy with the current graphic configuration of their machines.”
“No need for fancy 3d stuff. I and most people mostly use 2d apps in their everyday life.”
This is typical Mac user attitude. Try saying that to everyone that wants to use Maya and other 3D packages on the Mac.
I wonder if Pixar is running their workstations on FX 5200 or ATi 9600…
It is sad that this new dual G5 config needs liquid cooling,
i thought that it was still a lot cooler then a regular P4 or Athlon64
But it seems that they are having troubles to get the clock higher then 2,5 Ghz. They should have introduced a single 3Ghz G5 based system by now. Then they were ahead of the pc world. Now they only deliver expensive dual configs with liquid cooling!! that really sucks, i dont want my imac ever to need that sort of cooling. Looks like IBM is still really having problems with G5
What is with all these foundless complaints about the G5’s. You can put a Radeon 9800 XT 256mb card in them! Yes, the default one is a Radeon 9600 XT. But the 9600XT and the 9800XT are hardly low end or slow cards. I’m sure that ATi will release the X800 for the Mac not too far from now.
Uh, of course Apple targets professional customers — always has and always will. That does not obviate the fact, however, that there is a large segment of the Apple user base that are not professionals and use their Macs — including G5’s — for all sorts of everyday tasks, including gaming. And it would not have been too difficult for Apple to put a slightly better card in the new G5’s rather than the same card that was in last year’s G5.
And I’m not complaining about the iMac G5 delayed release. They’ve never announced the G5 iMac so how could it be delayed?
No, the default card is the nvidia FX 5200 ultra in all but the highest end G5. I *wish* the default was the ATI 9600 XT! That was what I said in my original post!
Sheesh.
You can put a Radeon 9800 XT 256mb card in them!
OMG for the last time, there is only the 128MB version. The 256mb version is only avaliable for PCs.
It is sad that this new dual G5 config needs liquid cooling, i thought that it was still a lot cooler then a regular P4 or Athlon64
It is cooler, they’re just trying to avoid making the machine sound like a vacuum cleaner. Besides, liquid cooling is a lot more efficient hence quieter, so I’m all for it. One of these days I’m going to liquid cool my Athlon 1200 just so I don’t have to hear it anymore.
I just tried to configure the dual 1.8 GHz model which doesn’t have PCI-X slots, but in the config page in the store they sell you a PCI-X gigabit card… 😮
I will find a bug report with their web team.
I also play high end 3D games on my Mac. Well, at least as high end as my 800mhz G4 iMac with 512mb of RAM will let me. I’ve saving up my money for a new Mac. More likely to buy the new iMac G5 if that is coming out. I’d love a tower but I’m limited on room with my music keyboard, guitar, etc. hooked into GarageBand.
>OMG for the last time, there is only the 128MB version. The 256mb version
>is only avaliable for PCs.
NO!!!!! Go the the store and modify your G5. You can choose a 256MB Radeon.
the 256mb xt is now available build to order in the towers
and
the 256mb ati 9800 pro special edition is now shipping as an add in card for g5 towers only.
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/radeon9800proseme/index.html
But with a maximum digital display mode of 1920×1200, will you be SOL when the rumored new displays are released at 2560×1600?
actually, there is a 256MB Radeon 9800 XT (only 128MB 9600 XT) available as a BTO option. The 9600 XT is only $50 extra and the 9800 XT is $350 extra.
I stand by my original point: 64MB nvidia FX 5200 ultra is a crappy default video card in a $2000 or $2500 computer. They should have the 9600 XT as the default card across the board since it’s only $50 more than the ultra. Hard core games could still upgrade to the 9800 XT if they wanted to. I love Apple and I love my Macs but sometimes they aggravate me.
where is the problem? If you order that combination you get a 1.8GHz G5 and a paperbox with the gigabit netcard 😉
Maybe, this is not what you want, but anyway, Apple has sold an gigabit netcard.
** ok, just a joke ** forgive me.
Hey Anonymous, maybe you should think before you speak. The 9800 XT 256 MB CAN BE put in the G5….don’t believe it…check the Apple Store AND http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html . But anyways, I have personally never really had any troubles with graphics and Macs. For example, I exported a Keynote presentation into interactive QuickTime format so I could run it on the PCs at school (or so i thought). So, I tried it on my old iMac G3 400 MHz with a 16 MB graphics card (!!!!!) and it run really well. So, convinced that it would work fine at school because the PCs all have 64 – 128 Mb cards. So, in I walk, ready to show off Keynote, but NOOOOO! It literally took 17 seconds for the cube effect to spin around, and it looked like crap! i was very upset at this, and decided that I wouldn’t try that again.
And about the new displays, which will supposedly drop ADC support. This makes sense, but leaves a few things a mystery. One, easily answered, is how will it get power (obviously a converter into the wall, duh) and two, how will it connect 2 FireWire and 2 USB ports to the computer? This would either require a whole bunch of cables, thus defeating the purpose, or one new type of cable (unless it already exists?) that would have to connect to a unique port. This would be a problem because it would have to connect to something no computer has. So, ok, they can just have one cables go to a free USB port on the comp and same for the FireWire. To me, that completely defeats the purpose because you are basically gaining one free port. And finally, when they drop ADC and return to the ever-popular DVI, wouldn’t that open a LOT of doors. For one, nearly all AGP graphics cards could work in a Mac, the only hard part being that someone has to make a driver. That wouldn’t be too difficult either! So that means ATi X800 cards in Macs!!! That will finally kill off the problem of graphics!
Still, the point is, for only $50 more they could have put in a better card which would satisfy designers and gamers alike. It sucks spending $2000 or more on a new machine and then have to pay more to put in a better graphics card.
Der… so you’re so disappointed that, after spending $2000 on a new system, you have to spend an extra $50 to get the card you want…. and you’re solution is to add the $50 card in by default. You do realize they wouldn’t add it in for free, right? The default system would just cost $50 more?
So you’re solution is, instead of allowing you to spend $2000 plus $50 more to get the upgraded card you want, they should have forced everyone else to pay $2000 plus the $50 to get a card they don’t want? Do you realize this is a silly complaint? If you want the better card, just order it with the better card!
First all I am dissapointed is that APPLE has not put professional grade graphic cards in the top model. I do not do 3D graphics but from what I understand OSX does not support the high end 3D cards.
As for the CPU speeds well a 25% speed increase is good enough to make it a VERY competitive machine for most workstation stly apps. And I figure in shootouts you will see the G5 close the gap if not suprass ATHLONs and ZEONs.
You just don’t get it, do you? You must not be a long time Mac user.
I and everyone else in Mac land is complaining that Apple should have dropped the nvidia card for the 9600 xt an even swamp. Surely, Apple can absorb the $50 difference (which is the retail difference, I am sure the OEM difference is negligible).
It’s the point of it, my friend. That is all. Of course if someone can afford $2000 on a new computer they can afford an extra $50. But that is not the point. It’s about Apple really needing to freshen up the lineup. And putting in an old graphics card is not the way to do it.
It’s like buying a Lexus that has a cheapo radio in it. If you have the cash to buy a premium product, you want premium all around. You don’t want the manufacturer to skimp or cut corners.
*sigh*
oops. should read: “Apple should have dropped the nvidia card for the 9600 xt at an even swap.”
for the cost of the machines they should have better standard video cards. better video is a boon to photoshop and final cut pro users as well. this isn’t just about gamers.
and more ram as well.
what i dont get is the following:
for a machine that is not yet shipping (dual 2.5ghz), why won’t they have pci express?
also, why dont they have have the top end ati x800 or nvidia geforce 6800 ultra as options.
the 9800 pro with 256mb ram came to mac 13 months after it was released.
now they offer the 9800 xt with 256mb ram, just 8 months after it ships?
so mac users will see the next upgrade in 2005 i guess?
If everyone want to bring up the issue of professional graphics cards, why no FireGL or Quadro cards?
The mac 9800xt and 9600xt are $519.99 and $203.99 at MacMall. The 5200 is an ancient card and tey should just get rid of it altogether. The pc version looks to be around $100.
Not to sound like a troll … but
As people have already pointed out, the graphic cards are not “current”. And when you think about it, Apple today really only introduced 1 new product, the 2.5GHz G5. The 1.8 and 2.0 GHz proc already existed and it seems to me that they are simply selling off old surplus hardware.
It just amazes me that in 12 months, the only new PowerMac their were able to produce was 1 new machine that is 500 MHz faster than the previous.
Also, why can you only purchase dual proc machines. Now don’t get me wrong – if I could choose between a single or a dual proc at the same price, I would take the dual. But is this suggesting that a single G5 doesn’t perform well enough to be “usable”. Because, in reality – if Apple could sell a single proc PowerMac without customer complaints on speed, they would, to save the cost of the second processor. Or again, are they selling dual 1.8 and 2.0 to help speed-up the selling of surplus hardware they have on hand?
shows the 9800xt with 256 ram starting at $371
the 9600xt with 128mb ram at $146
and finally a nvidia geforce fx5200 with 64mb ram at $60
so a $3,000 mac ships with a stock $146 video card
and $2000 and $2500 macs ship with $60 video cards as the standard.
the cards should be better for those prices in my opinion.
“No need for fancy 3d stuff. I and most people mostly use 2d apps in their everyday life. I would like to see Matrox coming back, they are pretty decent on 2D cards.”
Doesn’t Quartz Extreme utilize OpenGL for 2d display? So even for 2d applications, a faster 3d card would mean better performance, right?
Why would you ever go back to 2d videocards? Even if you don’t use much 3d, isn’t it nice to have it just in case? How does it make sense for Apple to limit their potential market by going back to 2d videocards? BTW, I know a lot of professionals who would love to go Mac but are hindered by the highend 3d performance and lack of applications.
Mac users are funny… a PC user would drool over a liquid-cooled dual CPU PC, yet Mac users seem to shun it! I’d love to have that duallie!
>Apple discontinued the remaining G4 Power Macs…
Not exactly. According to the press release:
“The single 1.25 GHz Power Mac G4, with suggested retail price of $1,299 (US), will no longer be in production…”
If you go to http://store.apple.com and click on Power Macs G4 you will see a couple dual G4s that should be still in production. I guess for Apple the word Power=dual.
any word on IBM and their fab problems? A 500 mhz upgrade after 1 year suggests IBM’s 90 nanometer problems linger.
This is really amazing. Apple’s foundry partners keep screwing up again and again. After years of dealing with motorola’s ineptitude apple is now dealing with problem’s from a usually reliable IBM.
Intel is having similar problems but it looks like apple is cursed.
I’m kinda bummed that the price went up. I bought a dual-G4 powermac march 2003, for $1499. It was the mid-level machine. I was going to upgrade to the G5. The mid-level is now $2499, and even the base is $1999. AND with the crap vidia. I would rather have an ATI. Don’t know if its better, but I entirely avoid Nvidea because they way they were toward Be and other alternative OS’s.
Dual 2.5 is a significant CPU upgrade. I can’t believe people are complaining about that.
The rest of the system, however, is a letdown.
maybe it means Xstation will be introduced at WWDC?
also, why dont they have have the top end ati x800 or nvidia geforce 6800 ultra as options.
Remember that Microsoft makes deals with hardware companies to hold off making drivers for other OSes. It’s a major complaint from the Linux sector. You’re lucky you get Apple drivers at all much less delayed.
> Doesn’t Quartz Extreme utilize OpenGL for 2d display?
Take any book on OpenGL programming and in the very first examples you will learn how to rotate a cube.
This is just what does the effect used by Fast User Switching!
One of the most hyped functionality of Panther is a matter of a few tens lines of code. But Apple made it magic.
I would rather have an ATI. Don’t know if its better, but I entirely avoid Nvidea because they way they were toward Be and other alternative OS’s.
Maybe Nvidia was bad in the past with BeOS, but if your on the linux side, Nvidia is light-years ahead of ATI in their driver support. I do a lot of 3D in my research, and I would NEVER buy an ATI card for Linux. I’d _love_ to see the Quadro FX 3000, like I have on my current gentoo box, available for the mac. Now that may make me switch back to apple.
I’m a bit underwhelmed. It’s a good think it’ll probably take me a year to save up for a new machine. Hopefully by then the 980 will be out.
does anyone else think its a little odd that apple just increased the entry price into the G5 power mac.
I was thinking apple had to go the other way…reducing the entry point into the G5 power mac line.
Are you supposed to buy a dual G4 or a iMAC (me thinks not) if you are unwilling to pay roughly $1900? No offense to mr jobs but that pricing structure strikes me as a mistake which will hurt sales. Perhaps jobs has a headless iMAC on the way to address the $1000 to $2000 gap in the product G5 product line?
I hope so because the sweet spot for computer sales is well below $1500.
It’s sad for those that have been long time customers of Apple products to always be told “You gotta wait for it”. That seems to be the motto of Apple lately and really it’s just more corporate b.s.
Re: Concering graphics cards comment “Remember that Microsoft makes deals with hardware companies to hold off making drivers for other OSes. It’s a major complaint from the Linux sector. You’re lucky you get Apple drivers at all much less delayed.”
This is more misinformation. When talking people at ATI and NVIDIA why there are no pro graphics cards for DCC/CAD work on the Mac I was told that it’s an Apple issue. Basically this is because Jobs and those running Apple haven’t felt the need for professional 3D content creation cards like FireGL, Quadro FX or Wildcat since they primarily over the years sold software that is for web design, illustration/graphics, editing and music. When they purchased Shake from Nothing Real that had the requirement for pro graphics hardware they changed that for Mac users stating low end gaming cards are sufficient. If this was so then why are such high end cards still required for Linux? Obviously either Apple doesn’t really care about their customers, they don’t like to spend money on R&D or they hope to finally sell off their surplus of unsold hardware. Take your pic but you shouldn’t point your finger at the graphics card developers or Microsoft. The finger being pointed should be directed at Apple.
Re: “Boger also said today that users shouldn’t expect to see a PowerBook G5 before the end of the year because of the challenges of putting the G5 in a small enclosure”
Come on what another lame excuse? Why is it that AMD has had no difficulty producing a 64-bit chip (AMD64 mobility) for laptops but Apple hasn’t? Maybe the media should direct this question to Motorola to see if it’s either a financial decision by Apple or just an excuse to clear Apple’s remaining inventory.
One poster did raise an interesting question regarding the G5 systems sold to PIXAR. Since Apple does not offer highend graphics cards for 3D artists then what does PIXAR use on those systems? From buddies in the industry close to PIXAR I heard rumours that they still run Linux workstations along side a few G5 systems. This would explain a lot since “Finding Nemo” could not of been done entirely on the G5 since Maya for OSX lacks tools like fluid effects used in the film. Only Maya Complete is offered on OSX which excludes such effects tools so what was really used to make that film? It would be intersting to find out if the G5 systems are only used for Shake and editing at PIXAR but everything else requiring 3D is still done on Linux or Windows.
But even at 2.5 isn’t it one of the fastest or fastest machines out right now?
and catch up.
“Maybe the media should direct this question to Motorola to see if it’s either a financial decision by Apple or just an excuse to clear Apple’s remaining inventory.”
Moto doesn’t make the G5, man.
lots of odd complaints here today.
Far as the graphics card thing, i don’t see what peoples deal is here either. It’s not a big deal at all. Also can someone tell me if that base card is fan less vs the other higher cards. If so that is a pretty good reason to keap it, less noise. I think I apple does anything they need to work with someone and have a card that is very good at 2D at high res. and gives excellent image quailty. I could care less about gaming, I just want the UI to be fast and look very sharp. And the card be quiet as it can be.
The death of ADC seams smart, I actualy thought it allready happened. Putting power and signal in the same line isn’t very smart. Far as ports on the monitor issues without it. You do realize one doesn’t need ports on the monitor, Seams pretty silly to me. The might just leave them off.
The all dual line seams like an obvious thing. The single G5 wasn’t much of an improvement over a dual G4 so it wasn’t a model people would jump on. And when G5 imacs come it would be even more pointless. Plus switching to all duals simplifies the line up, and in time they will have just one mobo and one internal packaging job. The won’t have to design two guts for the inside of the powermacs thus making them cheaper.
I’d like to know what happen to the vertical ram slots and other changes that were listed in the document that was going around. Maybe thats been out long anough that apple did some design changes after that as they couldn’t get the cpus they wanted so it got pushed back, or they scrapped it and found it as a good way to make the rumor people wrong.
A model with more HD bays, SATA optical drive, and PCI express would be nice.
I just tried to configure the dual 1.8 GHz model which doesn’t have PCI-X slots, but in the config page in the store they sell you a PCI-X gigabit card… 😮
I will find a bug report with their web team.
PCI-X is backward compatible with pci. Except, PCI-X 266
and PCI-X 533 are not compatible with the 5v slots. I seriously doubt the gigabit Ethernet card is PCI-X 266/533.
A PCI-X 133 3.3V card should down rev to 66MHz and 100MHz. PCI-X protocol is fully backward compatible with PCI.
It is also explained in the “learn more” section.
“The Gigabit Ethernet PCI-X card provides a high-performance network connection capable of 64-bit, 133 MHz PCI-X bus operation. The card also supports 33, 66, and 100 MHz speeds and includes 802.1q VLAN support and jumbo frame
capability.”
So that is no bug there.
I don’t think those machines are 1 inch thick with 3-4 hours battery life and weigh 5pounds…
high end graphics cards are primarily for real-time graphics – not what pixar does.
None of the effects pixar achieves are available in hardware – they all run on the CPU. Pixar don’t need a graphics card at all for rendering and you don’t need a gaming card for 3d editing (yes, a 9800xt would be more than enough).
On the subject of Maya – Pixar is as much a software company as an animation company and likely use in-house software for a hell-of-alot of what they do.
The end of the single processor G5 and the PRICE INCREASE (!) of the entire line means G5 iMacs better be freakin’ close.
Just a wild thought (please don’t flame me!) but maybe Steve Jobs run out of cool new ideas for new machines. Maybe thats why we havent seen a new machine for such a long time, except only upgrades. Perhaps these machines were his vision while he wasnt at Apple, and found a chance to make them true upon his return. Then again I might be full of b.s., as he (hopefully) makes our jaws drop at the WWDC with some new dream machine… “Oh, and one more thing!”
I can only hope as I am seriously thinking of switching to Apple. If there is no new machine, I’ll be really dissapointed.
> I don’t think those machines are 1 inch thick with 3-4 hours battery life and weigh 5pounds…
Well, mine’s around 4cm (~ 1.6 inch) thick, runs 3 hours on battery (while compiling GHC at the same time), and weights 3kg (~ 6 pounds).
> Well, mine’s around 4cm (~ 1.6 inch) thick, runs 3 hours on battery (while compiling GHC at the same time), and weights 3kg (~ 6 pounds).
To clarify, thats a mobile Athlon64, an Acer Aspire 1501Lmi to be exact.
Matt,
I was referring to the 3D software Maya that is used at Pixar for their animation. Pixar is an animation company. Yes they sell Renderman and licenses for that product but they are primarily an animation company. Yes it is possible they used their own proprietary tools but I find it difficult to grasp that they could pull of such work that they did on Finding Nemo with a gaming card. Maya takes advantage of features found only in highend cards..not gaming cards. Gaming cards such as ATI’s Radeon 9800XT can suck when used with highend software such as Maya. As proof take a trip to the OSX forum at Alias where there are dozens of complaints about Maya Complete not working as it did on Windows and Linux systems. Complaints about image issues, crashing, etc. See the hardware quality chart (below) for the tests done on the cards offered by Apple and Alias’s comments. I don’t see any that really pass testing with Maya. Alias though had to offer something for those Mac users that wanted Maya on OSX. Alias tried to let OSX users know which is a better card to use out of the limited list that Apple offers. Problem is Jobs and Apple did not deliver as promised to provide real highend cards. Radeon and Geforce FX cards are not intended for DCC (Digital Content Creation) and as such you don’t see gaming cards listed for Softimage, Alias, SideFX, etc system requirements. The reason Maya Unlimited wasn’t offered to OSX users primarily has to do with a lack of highend cards available on Apple systems. Gaming cards just don’t cut it when it comes to doing 3D animation or visual effects. Trying to make others believe opposite proves you don’t know what you are talking about.
Maya hardware quality chart for OSX:
http://www.alias.com/eng/support/maya/qualified_hardware/QUAL/maya_…
Mike, you haven’t been following Apple long have you?
Apple doesn’t release a new machine design for novelty, despite what you and others might think. They establish a design to (ideally) last year. The original G4 case lasted a long time. The original iMac lasted along time. When Apple has a cool idea, it lasts for years. It doesn’t just pop up and exist for a couple of months.
Also, these G5s aren’t available yet. Why would you except another line up of Power Macs in two weeks when these won’t be out for a while? Product refreshes occur in cycles of anywhere from 3 to 9 months, usually six and in this case 12 months… Why would that change to .5 for the first time ever.
These are some heavy duty systems. Why are so many of you so hung up on a 3 GHz processor? Comparing the G5 to Intel and AMD is really not fair to Intel and AMD. You should be comparing the G5 to other RISC processors such as the UltraSPARC, PA-RISC, and SGI’s processors.
x86 based processors are for playing games, if you want to do real work RISC is the only way to go.
If Apple / Mac had more of a gaming presence, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many people would switch instantaneously.
But
1) Games are late
2) Games usually don’t perform comparable to x86
3) Lack of mod tools for mac (software like Milkshape 3D, UnrealED)
4) Apple’s “ways” of doing things
Are fouling up the works.
If the PowerPC is so great, why can’t it accelerate exploding heads at 300 FPS like an Athlon 64? I know that ports are sloppy but more must be done!
Gamers shouldn’t HAVE to be forced to use Windows, but they are. Games are what put Windows 95 on the map.
It was id Software and Doom 95 that showed the world that Windows could actually replace DOS/Command prompts etc for general usage.
I read somewhere that Apple didn’t care for their machines being used to play games… which is just stupid.
I want a PowerBook more than anything, but I’m waiting for the G5 version and a better video card so that I can hopefully at least play Unreal 2004 (I need / want a Unix platform for school) but I also need *some* games.
Water cooling to get closer to the 3GHz he promised. Oops, looks like everyone’s dependance on shrinking process sizes is catching up to them. P4 is stuck, 970 is stuck, and I assume Athlon64 is stuck as well. Now everyone runs to pile on large cache’s (P4EE) and water cooling.
Personally, I’d rather just wait for 90nm(is that the right unit?) than buy something that needs a radiator.
And when I look for a laptop there are three chips I’d want in one:
G4e, banias (Pentium M), and efficeon.
For me, it’s about power consumption not raw computing power. I wanna sit in central campus for 8 hours online on my laptop before I graduate. They’ve got three years left cause I’m a sophomore. Wouldn’t it be nice…..
Oh wait, Sony has that already.
I know a product announcement could be around the corner, but Apple not having a headless machine for under $2000 is a SERIOUS problem. I know there is a market for eMacs and iMacs but most consumers would never consider an all-in-one computer; me being one of them. I just bought a 1.25GHz G4 and I absolutely love it. If the cheapest new Mac without a monitor was $1999 then Apple would not have me as a customer right now. I hope they reconsider their position unless they have a new machine around the corner to replace the G4 at the same price point. If not, I am both surprised and disspointed.
Interveiw with Apple on the 2.5 G5
http://www.creativemac.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=26058
The new dual 2.5 GHz model will ship in July for $2,999.
“That is a really aggressive price point,” Boger said. “If you try to find something in the ballpark of the performance of a G5, you’re going to have to go to a dual Xeon workstation that costs considerably more. So that $2,999 price point is still very aggressive.”creativemac.com
Ok this for the most part answered my earlier post on the performance of the G5 2.5.
BOXX will have to lower its prices, but they don’t have studio artist, FCP, Motion, and the iApps and OS X. Compelling price Apple. My pc will be collecting dust when I get one.
You know, there are a lot more things to computers than playing games… I use PPC processors because they kicks ass on genetic analyses, not because they play the latest kiddie games. Some of these posts are so pedestrian.
R. Dyer, PhD
Theoretical Population Geneticist
for a machine that is not yet shipping (dual 2.5ghz), why won’t they have pci express?
Becuase there are no PCI-Express devices yet!!!
Intel hasn’t yet released a PCI-Express chip set and they are the primary driving force behind PCI-Express!!!!!
I thought you were banned from OSNews. Anyway I guess since you have no other FUD to spread on an Apple related post you bringup pci express just for the sake of it and graphic card selections. Typical.
In case this hasn’t been covered:
OMG for the last time, there is only the 128MB version. The 256mb version is only avaliable for PCs.
Try looking here:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/06/09/radeon/index.php?red…
lol
I am not surprised it was covered….but, boy, I wasn’t prepared for the smackdown I witnessed
So they aren’t going to push out a 3 GHz PowerMac G5 . . . . that kinda hurts, especially when they mentioned that there was more challenges with the chip then expected. I’m sure they’re talking about the heat that these chips give off.
Wasn’t this the whole point of moving these machines to a liquid cooling system!?
This makes me worried . . . . if they can’t get the heat done from these chips, how the heck is the company going to push anything else out with this chip? I mean they pretty much told us that the chip will not work in the current heating system they developed, or keep cool in anything small then a PowerMac G5 case. I don’t really see too much room for advancement!
Plus I don’t understand, why they can’t keep a single chip cool. I’m sure people wouldn’t mind a single processor 3 GHz G5 system. Can’t they create the system so that there’s one 3 GHz chip put keep the dual processor cooling system? Can’t be that hard to modify something like that can they, or does the chip really give off THAT much heat.
Actually, to all those who say that Mac’s dont need a better graphics card than a low-end, entry level PC card. Ananad (anandtech.com) didn’t agree when he was playing with a dual G5. His impression was that adding a 9800XT greatly increased the feeling (nothing substantial to benchmark, they’re still working ing on their Mac section) of Expose and the like with multiple windows. No matter what, OSX would benefit from a faster card. Heck, my iBook is running with a 9000 Pro type level card. Thats ridiculus. My PC has it and its over 2 yrs old. The iBook is 3 months.
It really would not hurt Apple, at all, to use and certify more cards for their operating system. Actually, all it does is expand their horizons. More potential users = more cash they can gouge from people. Its a win win.
Otherwise, I’m a little disappointed in the new offerings. Yes, they’re faster, barely, but don’t really offer anything special. They missed their promise (3Ghz by summer) and it just kinda feels like “well…we need SOMETHING.” So this is what they offered.
On such a high end machine (with a pretty decent price for the 2.5GHz version), it’s surprising to see such a crappy graphics card. The FX 5200 is slower than the previous-gen GeForce4’s! And even if you don’t play games, you have to remember that OS X uses the GFX card to offload compositing (eg: Expose, genie effect, etc) so performance does matter.
“Just a wild thought (please don’t flame me!) but maybe Steve Jobs run out of cool new ideas for new machines. Maybe thats why we havent seen a new machine for such a long time, except only upgrades. Perhaps these machines were his vision while he wasnt at Apple, and found a chance to make them true upon his return. Then again I might be full of b.s., as he (hopefully) makes our jaws drop at the WWDC with some new dream machine… “Oh, and one more thing!””
Jobs doesn’t come up with all the design ideas. Jon Ive is usually the guy for that, and he does a great job.
“Also, these G5s aren’t available yet. Why would you except another line up of Power Macs in two weeks when these won’t be out for a while? Product refreshes occur in cycles of anywhere from 3 to 9 months, usually six and in this case 12 months… Why would that change to .5 for the first time ever.”
Last I heard was that once IBM overcame the production issues, Apple was going to update everything every 2 quarters, probably staggered.
“I know a product announcement could be around the corner, but Apple not having a headless machine for under $2000 is a SERIOUS problem. I know there is a market for eMacs and iMacs but most consumers would never consider an all-in-one computer; me being one of them. I just bought a 1.25GHz G4 and I absolutely love it. If the cheapest new Mac without a monitor was $1999 then Apple would not have me as a customer right now. I hope they reconsider their position unless they have a new machine around the corner to replace the G4 at the same price point. If not, I am both surprised and disspointed.”
Well the iMac is meant as an all-in-one, but a new eMac would be where to look for headless.
“adding a 9800XT greatly increased the feeling of Expose and the like with multiple windows”
I can see where that’s coming from, but Expose performs the same on my old G3 iMac 333MHz as it does on my dual 2 GHz G5.
“for a machine that is not yet shipping (dual 2.5ghz), why won’t they have pci express?
Becuase there are no PCI-Express devices yet!!! NOR IS THERE A DUAL 2.5GHZ MAC!!!
Intel hasn’t yet released a PCI-Express chip set and they are the primary driving force behind PCI-Express!!!!!”
as i said, a product announcement for a not yet shipping mac. if it wont ship til July, pci express will be out by then.
you will be able to buy PCs in July with pci express. thats the point, how is that fud?
see:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/chips/0,39020354,39156876,00.htm
(also something missing from the not yet released mac is ddr2 memory)
“I thought you were banned from OSNews. Anyway I guess since you have no other FUD to spread on an Apple related post you bringup pci express just for the sake of it and graphic card selections. Typical.”
why would i be banned? because i know a fair amount about apple and its products and post in threads about macs is some reason to be banned? or should you be banned for attacking me like this?
if you dont agree with the material posted, refute it with accurate data. leave me out of it please. i am not interested in getting involved in your trouble making ways.
Intel after a year has also only increased their clock speed by 400mhz. 3.0ghz to 3.4ghz. Thats only a 13% increase. On the other hand, the G5 has increased by 25%. Is that out of line?
“if you dont agree with the material posted, refute it with accurate data. leave me out of it please. i am not interested in getting involved in your trouble making ways.”
BS.
You previously obsessively posted on mac threads negative, passive aggressive tracts that bummed out the threads.
You know it, we know it.
Be honest.
as i said, a product announcement for a not yet shipping mac. if it wont ship til July, pci express will be out by then.
PCI-Express is not a product, it is a technology. What does out by then mean?
I was at the PCI-SIG conference last june looking at demoes of pci-express devices by Intel. Even got a USB flash memory keychain for asking interesting questions from the intel booth. I even got a call to go attend it this year. go to http://www.pci-sig.com in case you don’t know what it is.
PCI-Express will be first used for graphics and Since ATI hasn’t released thier R423 chip based graphics based card yet for retail. There is no point in putting PCI-Express on the board.
PCI-Express hasn’t caught on in the market yet. Even intel is just getting ready to release chipsets, and they have been at it for a while. First, the Graphics card vendors will take a stab at it.
Most storage and networking vendors don’t have PCI-Express in thier roadmaps till 2005 and beyond. Then things will start to get more mainstream and cheap in 2006+.
PCI-X is more than enough bandwidth for most I/O devices. PCI-Express x16 is what graphics vendors would use.
Notice how majority of the PC motherboards still have 32-bit PCI slots. The G5s are one of the few desktops that even ships with PCI-X. Apple is already ahead of the traditional desktop market on the PCI side.
you will be able to buy PCs in July with pci express. thats the point, how is that fud?
And plug in what exactly???? at what cost???? You think the first generation PCI-Express graphics cards will be cheap???
(also something missing from the not yet released mac is ddr2 memory)
The powermac G5 2.5GHz is released if it is on the price list in the Apple store. Not yet shipping is different from not yet released.
why would i be banned? because i know a fair amount about apple and its products and post in threads about macs is some reason to be banned? or should you be banned for attacking me like this?
Because everyone is tired of your trolling, Eugenia said she had banned you.
PC boxes had USB ports in for years before anyone actually used them.
Chances are PCI-Express will be the same, most people just won’t need the extra bandwidth and stick to cheaper PCI cards.
What’s stopping Power Macs from using every graphics card that is available for PCs, even the high end like Quadro or FireGL? Is it the ADC? If so, then dropping that standard and moving to DVI wouldnt every card be supported? (perhaps with a card BIOS update?)
Take a peek at the specs again and tell me what the MAJOR drawback is that would truly hamper real world performance.
I really want a g5 dualie, and the 1.8 would fit my needs amazingly, but they dropped the HD size from 160 to 80 on the new model, and im sorry but 256MB RAM standard on a $2000 machine? Forget the graphics cards, i think thats where the beating is taking place.
then dropping that standard and moving to DVI wouldnt every card be supported? (perhaps with a card BIOS update?)
That and … every DVI monitor-display would be supported.
There is no reason for Apple to include such poor performant video card at that price. Certainly not because of lacking drivers.
An ATI Fire GL isn’t much more than a non GL ATI card.
This might be a silly question, but with all the gnashing of teeth on the various Mac forums, I’ve been wondering… Is there any speed advantage gained in Apple employing a 90nm G5 chip versus the 130nm G5 at the same speed. In other words, will a dual 2 Ghz 970FX be a faster computer than a 2 GHz 970.
Anyone have a definitive answer?
“What’s stopping Power Macs from using every graphics card that is available for PCs, even the high end like Quadro or FireGL? Is it the ADC? If so, then dropping that standard and moving to DVI wouldnt every card be supported? (perhaps with a card BIOS update?)”
Every Power Mac has a DVI next to the ADC. Basically it’s the drivers that are missing.
“This might be a silly question, but with all the gnashing of teeth on the various Mac forums, I’ve been wondering… Is there any speed advantage gained in Apple employing a 90nm G5 chip versus the 130nm G5 at the same speed. In other words, will a dual 2 Ghz 970FX be a faster computer than a 2 GHz 970.”
The big reasons are that 90nm runs cooler and can have higher clock speeds. The 130 would never fit in a decent sized laptop or 1U server (too hot for both) , but the 90 does.
Every Power Mac has a DVI next to the ADC. Basically it’s the drivers that are missing.
If it had DVI only the drivers (mainly from Windows 32 bit) wouldn’t be hard to port to the Mac.
The two biggest video chip (VPU) companies have nothing against more sales.
In other words, will a dual 2 Ghz 970FX be a faster computer than a 2 GHz 970.
They should perform the same, except the 90nm one should run cooler.
Let’s not take the “Megahertz myth” out of proportion. Two same architectures will perform the same at the same clockspeed. Same pipeline, same clock same performance, regardless of the manufacturing process used.
That said, I am not sure if IBM tweaked the pipeline of the 970FX for 90 nm production, which might eventually lead to a performance advantange.
I’ve been using Macs since the 128k in 1984 but I don’t feel the need to be a Mac apologist. For a $3000 machine the 9600 is a joke. Apple’s biggest Market is graphics professionals and they want fast cards with lots of memory. Radeon 9800’s with 128 MB of memory are dirt cheap now and twice as fast as the 9600. It is ridiculous to have a 9600 in a $3K machine. Deal with it. Besides that Apple is very actively trying to market to gamers because they tend to buy high end machines and upgrade often. As far as the liquid cooling I hope it really is quiet as I hope all the new G5’s are quiter than current models. But none of us know for sure. Apple doesn’t even have a picture of the liquid cooling on their site, just an artists rendition. Will these be out by July? I bet not, or if they are then in very small numbers. Btw if they are only going to liquid cooling for noise levels then why isn’t it on all the machines? Finally do you want to be the first to have a liquid cooled Mac? Not me.
it just keeps me laughing this new 2.5ghz g5…
not only is it a 500mhz overclock of the 2.0ghz chip…
apple had to use “previously bad” pc tech to do it.
so instead of having 64-bit in everything from laptops to 8-way servers, apple is left with their powerpc cripplechip. that apple went with powerpc again… after the first one flamed out is just crazy dumb.
i wish those guys all the best, but they make so many dumb decisions it does explain the ever-shrinking market share.
“not only is it a 500mhz overclock of the 2.0ghz chip…
apple had to use “previously bad” pc tech to do it. ”
It’s a 2.5 GHz 90nm G5, not an overclocked 2 GHz 130nm. New chip.
“so instead of having 64-bit in everything from laptops to 8-way servers, apple is left with their powerpc cripplechip.”
Have you seen the current 64-bit laptops? Apple has pushed their laptops down to around an inch thick across the board, they can’t very well make them bigger and heavier…progress is moving forward, not backward.
“that apple went with powerpc again… after the first one flamed out is just crazy dumb.”
And you are refering to what exactly?
There is no 2.5Ghz 970FX. Apple is basically selling a stop-gap water-cooled monster because IBM’s PPC970/970FX does not scale up in clock frequency.
IBM is no better than Intel or anyone else when it comes to 90nm design. The 970FX is a busted cripplechip design made on a broken process.
It just makes me laugh that after years of slamming PC modders for water cooling, Apple is now having to overclock and water cool their cripplechip G5. Does the word irony mean anything to Macheads?
So they aren’t going to push out a 3 GHz PowerMac G5 . . . . that kinda hurts, especially when they mentioned that there was more challenges with the chip then expected. I’m sure they’re talking about the heat that these chips give off.
Heat is only part of the problem: with structures this small signal noise and leak currents have a very strong impact on the integrity of the signals on the chip.
See this ars technica news item: http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1083010432.html .
…and normally if its released by Apple, its good enough not to worry about malfunction (note:normally). Anyway ordered mine this morning. Will let you guys know if i have problems with it when I get it in July+.
“There is no 2.5Ghz 970FX. Apple is basically selling a stop-gap water-cooled monster because IBM’s PPC970/970FX does not scale up in clock frequency.”
I never said anything about overclocking or not, I said it wasn’t the same chip in the current (or rather previous) G5s, which were 130nm.
“IBM is no better than Intel or anyone else when it comes to 90nm design. The 970FX is a busted cripplechip design made on a broken process.”
So if they are the same, are you saying every current chip is a busted cripplechip design made on a broken process?
“IBM is no better than Intel or anyone else when it comes to 90nm design. The 970FX is a busted cripplechip design made on a broken process.”
We didn’t slam anyone for watercooling, we slammed them for making it look so silly. Having an extra tower to cool the chip is silly.
A cripple chip… Really? Goldstein, what exactly are you sprinkling on your cereal in the morning?
When Popular Mechanics tested the “crippled” G5 2 GHz against an HP xw 6000 (dual Xeons running at 3.06 GHz, Linux, costing about $3500 or more), guess how the PowerMac fared…?
Here’s the relevant passage…
“…we turned to BLAST and HMMer, which are DNA and genome-sequence matching tests, as well as to Bibble, a batch image-processing application. The problem is that these tests do not run on Windows XP. In frustration, after running the SPEC tests on the HP xw6000 workstation, we installed Linux on the HP, which allowed us to run the new tests. And we were surprised. The G5 was 59.5 percent faster than the HP at processing 85 high-resolution color photographs totaling 684.6MB of data. In the HMMer tests (61.3MB of data), Apple was 67 percent faster than the PC and under BLAST (32.8MB), Apple was 85.9 percent faster. These results are in line with those now published on Apple’s Web site.”
The link:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/computers/2004/4/desktop…
Now imagine those same crippled chips, running 25 per cent faster, each with a 1.25 GHz frontside bus… The new PowerMac is going to smoke just about anything out there.
Except on games, of course. 🙂
IBM has produced an amazing product, and it’s only going to get better, especially if Tiger comes in both 32 and 64 bit flavors. It’s a great time to be a Mac owner.
I don’t know why all the zealots are complaining about this machine(2.5ghz). It looks like a good machine to me. Compared to Intel if I’m not mistaken IBM beat them with a 500mhz vs a 400mhz push in a year. The price is right to compared to other high end machines. The bus speed is great too.
…that we’ve gone from being submissive to Motorola’s lack luster G4 deliveries to now complaining about receiving a G5 delivery that again puts us in the clock speed lead on the 64bit front.
My, my… How attitudess can change in a little over a year. 😉
And goldstein; You’ve made it clear that you’re still waiting on pubic hair.
i agree IBM has done a great job with the chip and they are still developing it. IBM and Apple have billions on the line and that team is in a better position with the PPC chip than Moto. Zealots have a great machine now and they are still complaining. Doesn’t make any sense to me. Whatever Apple does good, excellent, or bad, complaints come. I think that is why market share is number 3 on Apple’s priority and meeting customer needs number 1. I would say they have met them.
you are wrong
“RADEON 9800 PRO Mac Special Edition has a leading edge 256 MB of ultra fast DDR memory, with 680 MHZ data rate and a core engine speed of 380 MHZ.”
While the announcements were fine, Apple’s got another problem that really needs to be addressed. That is, the lousy, pale, washed-out LCD screens on the iBook and 12″ Powerbook. The quality is quite simply embarrassing. To get anything even close to the quality in my otherwise sh*tty, work supplied Dell, you need to go to the 15″ Powerbook. I’m chomping at the bit for an OSX laptop. The G4 is perfectly fine with me as a CPU, but I simply can’t stomach the LCD quality in their “value” laptops.
Come on, Apple. If Dell can ship a value laptop with a decent screen, so can you.
David Huff, I don’t think it’s the screens themselves, but the small resolution that makes things look bad. Who uses OS X at 1024 anyway?
David Apple and dell can learn from one another. I haven’t seen the 12″ yet, but I know it’s popular with photographers who need a small laptop.
“Apple and dell can learn from one another”
What a concept. Especially when the two publicly bash eachother all the time.
The liquid cooling used in the G5 is
not
used to cool and excessively overclocked cpu. Use your logic. The liquid cooling is used for one main reason.
To keep the G5 quiet.
The G5 was and is designed from the ground up to be a quiet and heavy duty system. The new liquid cooling system adheres to this original philosophy.
Without liquid cooling, dual 2.5GHz G5 users would have to put up with the wind-tunnel P4 type systems.
That said, these new 2.5 G5 systems look to be a killer rig for the price.
Maybe water cooling will allow you geeks to overclock the G5?
Maybe it’s capable of 3.5 ghz and nobody knows it.
And like one person said above, don’t compare price and performance to X86, compare to PPC and see if they are expensive.
You can get a P4 from IBM for $359.00.
http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?st…
Here’s what IBM charges for their own bottom end PPC workstation.
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/hardware/workstations/
Learn about PPC 970.
http://www.ibm.com/search?en=utf&v=11&lang=en&cc=us&lv=c&q=ppc+970+
Do simple search.
http://www.ibm.com/search?en=utf&v=11&lang=en&cc=us&lv=c&q=water+co…
The G5 is a go between, that when compared to similar architecture is a bargain, and when compared to X86 is expensive.
Too many whiners.
Many have speculated and whined about G5 laptops in the past.
Maybe the water cooling is going to be used in the G5 lap someday.
http://www.research.ibm.com/thinkresearch/pages/2001/20010808_cooli…
Apple seems to be a test bed for IBM lately.
Who knows? Definitely not you or me.