I’m sure everyone is sick of reading reviews of Suse 9.1 by now but perhaps this one is a little different. This is not an ordinary review in the sense that I don’t provide lots of colourful screenshots, or ramble on endlessly about the included software versions and other trivial things. Written from the point of view of a Debian user trying to switch to an “easier” distribution, I concentrated on how Suse stacks up compared to some of the traditional Debian strengths.
Before I begin with my impressions of Suse, I’ll start with a little background information:
I switched from Windows to Linux about 4 years ago when I finally found a distribution that didn’t annoy me, Debian. It required a bit of manual tweaking but I always found that the important things “Just worked”. Well after 3 years of just working, I finally rode my installation into the ground through a combination of kernel upgrades and running a diverse mix of packages from the “unstable”, “testing”, and even “experimental” branches of Debian. It got to the point where KDE would boot unbearably slowly, applications would fail to start, and my mouse and keyboard would stop working if I didn’t use them for a few minutes. After much fiddling I finally decided a reinstall would be the path of least resistance. Since I’d been hearing all these fantastic reviews for Suse 9.1 I thought I would give it a try; after all it sounded like this was finally a no-nonsense, “just works” distribution for the fabled average user.
First Impressions
I downloaded the FTP install version of Suse 9.1 and installed it on a spare partition. The installer is absolutely great and I had no problems with it whatsoever (looks pretty too). The install finished and I boot into my shiny new Suse 9.1 installation. At first glance, everything seems to work great, I can see the Windows shares on my roommate’s computer, the internet connection is set up and working, the KDE 3.2 menu is well organized, and the desktop gives a very polished first impression. In terms of setting up a pleasing desktop environment, Suse is far ahead of Debian.
The Problems Start
Unfortunately I immediately ran into my first problem, the wheel and the fourth button on my mouse didn’t work. So I fire up the sluggish but slick looking Yast2 and click on the mouse configuration module. My mouse, a Logitech Cordless Mouseman Optical, is not present in the pitifully short list of mice to choose from. So I select the generic USB mouse and check the “Enable mouse wheel” box. The wheel still doesn’t work and I spend the next half hour unsuccessfully trying different combinations in the configuration module. Finally I decide to restart the system and voila, the wheel works (although my fourth mouse button is still broken). On a related note, this mouse, including wheel worked great with Debian on the first try.
Similarly, my keyboard was set up as a generic 104 key keyboard, when in fact it is a Logitech Cordless with all those volume wheels and special buttons. In Debian, once I had selected the proper keyboard in the KDE Control Panel, the volume wheel was automatically mapped to the volume controls of the KDE Mixer. Not so in Suse. Sure this is easy to correct but I had been hoping to leave these annoying chores behind by moving to an easier distribution like Suse.
Software Installation and Updates
Input problems aside, I decided to get on with setting up my system, which brought me directly to the next issue. Installing software in Suse is a very frustrating experience. I start up Yast2 and click on the software installation management. I don’t know why this isn’t directly in the K-menu since it’s a huge annoyance to have to start up Yast2 every time. The software installation module is very slow to start up and when it appears, offers relatively limited functionality. There is no apparent way to view only installed packages and the package information fails to show you the files that the package will install (although the embedded Yast in Konqueror does). Nevertheless the applications that were available in the database did install cleanly and did a good job of adding shortcuts to the K-Menu.
Suse has a system tray icon which automatically checks for updates and supposedly informs you if there are any available. While this is a good idea, the implementation needs some polish. There is no tooltip on the icon to check the status of updates, nor any progress indication when checking for updates. Also, if there is no updates to install, there is really no reason that this icon should even be visible. The same can be said for the system tray icon for the suseplugger application that monitors for new hardware. Why do we need to see this if there is no new hardware? Does anyone actually reconfigure their hardware so often that they need a quick link in their system tray?
Multimedia Support
Suse, like every other distribution, cannot legally ship some of the multimedia codecs with their distribution because of patent reasons. Sure enough, videos in Windows Media and other proprietary formats fail to play with the Kaffeine video player. I’m perfectly fine with this as I am used to getting these codecs via an external source from my days with Debian.
So I start my hunt for the w32codecs package which should contain all the codecs I need to play my video files. A quick search leads me to two packages on different web sites, one for the Quicktime codecs and one for the Windows Media and DivX codecs. I click on the RPM files in Konqueror to install them and the view changes to a nice overview of the package and a button to “Install with Yast”. So far so good I think and click install. After a long delay the Yast software installation module appears with no sign of my codec package, but clicking “Accept” does proceed to install the requested package.
Unfortunately my videos are still not working. Off on another web search, I find that I should install something called “avidemux”, which, after wrestling with the dependencies, I manage to do. Once again, however, this does nothing to phase my video files, which still refuse to play.
At this point I gave up on the video issue because I was sick of jumping through so many hoops to make Suse’s crippled multimedia applications play game with the additional codecs. Why does Suse even bother including the multimedia software if it is virtually useless for anything other than playing plain mpegs? I think it would be more productive to not include it at all and provide some easy instructions for adding the software from an external source.
All that was necessary to add multimedia support to Debian was one additional line in my apt sources list.
The Yast Configuration System
One of my mayor gripes with Suse is with the Yast2 configuration program. While it is nice to have all the configuration in one place, the whole thing felt quite cobbled together and is missing important features. The hardware section has an icon for setting up the mouse, but nothing for the keyboard. How is anyone supposed to know that to set up the keyboard they need to go into the KDE Control Center instead of Yast? Also, every time I access the network configuration to change an IP address or something equally trivial, Yast goes through the network card detection routine again. Why does it have to detect my network cards again if I just want to change an IP address? Yast seems to take every opportunity to waste time and make common tasks frustratingly cumbersome.
Along with being poorly organized, many icons for configuration tasks just shouldn’t be displayed by default. Everyday, mundane things like “Select keyboard layout” or “Choose language” are right next to “LVM” and “/etc/sysconfig Editor”. Suse should really move the advanced configuration options, which no ordinary users or even most knowledgeable users would ever touch, into a separate section.
Conclusion
Suse has done a lot of things right with this release, unfortunately almost none of those things are particularly useful to me in everyday operation of my computer. The important things, like software availability and management, proper detection of my basic hardware, and straightforward configuration are quite lacking and have sent me straight back to my old Debian install. I have earnestly made an effort to like this distribution and wish I could switch to something “easier” than Debian, but I just cannot bring myself to use Suse 9.1 on a regular basis.
About the Author
I am a Computer Engineering student in Victoria, Canada. I’m currently working in a research position on eye tracking technologies for the severely disabled at the University of Victoria.
I agree that Debian users can be arrogant, well that pretty much sums up the behaviour of Linux users to Windows users. Strangely enough Debian and Gentoo users appreciate the complexity of the distros because of the control they have from the initial stages of its installation and not for the ease of use.
It is unlikely for a Debian User who has build debian from the base system to have difficulty in using any other Distro of Linux.
I have heard numerous complaints about SuSE 9.1, I’m a little suprised, even though I’m a Debian User myself, I do like what SuSE has accomplished.
“Most of the problems that people complain about in Linux Distro reviews are all problems that Windows has overcome for the most part or does at least solves these problems in a much cleaner way.”
And Windows comes with it’s own set of problems. No OS is perfect.
“Don’t get my wrong Linux has many advantages over non open source OSs such as Windows but I honestly think it could be much better than it is currently.”
Windows could be much better as well.
“SuSE has always been a business oriented distro. SuSE does not encourage 3rd party software repositories because of the destabilizing effect incorrectly compiled software can have on their products”.
And this is the difference with Mandrake and Debian. They support your use of third party software, which is a very liberating thing. And guess what, if it doesn’t meet your needs, then you uninstall it and no harm done. I have no idea what “destabilizing effect” you are talking about because both distributions are very stable,all of the contrib and plf packages are signed. If a package doesn’t meet your needs, you remove it.
If you are telling that a Suse server could melt from installing third party software that is plainly ridiculous and you don’t expect Suse to package the Plone CMS or the egroupware stuff, do you? Yet both packages are extremely useful and extremely stable.
“You intend to install non-certified software on a production server at your company…….right, carry on. Do you at least attempt to install these packages to a test server first or are you installing directly to your production server? ”
I do use a staging server, but cut the crap. Suse does not “certify” any of the software it ships with. If you have problems with “OpenOffice”, they will try to help you, but they don’t certify anything. Otherwise, kindly point me to these certifications.
This server that I am referring to is a terminal server for a computer lab and also our groupware server, which means that, yes, I do have to install non-Suse packaged software, such as egroupware. Why? Because phpprojekt which is what Suse ships sucks and OpenExchange, Suse’s product, is too expensive for this small non-profit. Not to mention, that we do not do proprietary software as a matter of principle, unless it is absolutely necessary.
We have moved to free software and are helping sister organizations do the same. Therefore we need to lead by example.
Mad Installer, you made me chuckle. I nodded my head with every line I read. I wonder what’s wrong with me sometimes . . . why not install Windows, curl up in the fetal position, and expire? Well, WE know why, DON’T WE!? Hey, it took me hours to get my RHEL 3 install where I wanted it, but, oh, what joy now. I’ve been forced for health reasons to administer my company’s network from home for about 10 days now (radiation treatments), but, with TSClient and a VPN connection, man, it’s like being at work – – without all the interruptions. Ah, well, I’m preaching to the choir here, but you and others know where I’m coming from. : ) Life is too short to argue over which distro is “best.” Get one, be nice to it, be happy.
“Fedora, Mandrake you name it, you have to go hunt this stuff down on all of them. ”
You must have not had heard of easy urpmi. It’s ok now you know.
http://urpmi.org/easyurpmi/index.php
urpmi libdvcss will give you dvd playback out of the box.
urpmi gmplayer will install mplayer with all of the proprietary codecs, if that’s your box of cholocates. Easy and simple.
Ya, Windows has overcome simple problems like getting a Logitech mouse to work.
It simply hasn’t gotten over Virus, Worms, Trojans, Spyware, Adware, BSODs, poor multitasking, poor stability, reboot mania, peformance degradation over time, Rebuilding whole OS at least once a year………did I cover everything there?
Good grief ppl lets be realistic here.
Hard to believe some of comments are all about x distro sucks, y is better. Frankly, that does not encourage some newbies who want to try any Linux distros. Time to grow up and be professional.
Ah I see what you mean. At least it is nice to read what to do and not to do. I probalbly live too much in a professioal world.
Leo, thanks. I am sure a review from me would end all. I’m just not sure what all it would end. Every time I opem my mouth its nuclear vomit — literally.
Tim in VA, I did radiation and chemo both, man. It’s no picnic and I understand. It’s all in the attitude. Hang in there, man. My retirement was for that very reason. I’m a seven year servivor and still kicken. On top of all that, I’m one of those Vietnam Vet who brought back a case of Hep-C (no cure). It never ends.
“Life is too short to argue over which distro is “best.” Get one, be nice to it, be happy.”
That’s a great line, Tim. Can I steal it.
One other note. If it wern’t for all those different kinds of hardware, this Linux stuff would be easy. We need to protest and make the hardware people make hardware that fits the OS instead of trying to make the OS fit all the different hardware.
Mad Installer — OUT!
Mad Installer, you are great.
That is how I started my linux experience.
Not that I have stopped trying distros, I have just calmed down a bit.
With SuSe 9.0 I felt I had found the ultimate OS, not just the ultimate linux distro.
And now I got this disappointment of 9.1 not being on a par (IMO).
“What he said is a fact, not supposed to be taken as an insult.”
You’re right. Windows couldn’t be better as well:
http://news.com.com/IE+flaws+used+to+spread+pop-up+toolbar/2100-100…
I have been using Linux for a year… I am not in the IT business or programming business. I have tried Mandrake 9-10, Fedora Core 1&2, Mepis, debian, red hat and SUSE 9 & 9.1.
Red hat was fine except all the media stuff was missing. It installed well.
Mandrake 9.1 was great, 9.2 Blew and 10 fried my NTFS partician and hung the whole damn computer up. I had to reimage the drive.
Mepis couldn’t install my microsift intellimouse or my NIC card (gigabyte).
Debian, kept hanging on install and I never could get it to work.
SUSE 9 & 9.1…. both installed perfectly buy run flawlessly on both my desktop and lappy.
The proofs in the using…. ok… go ahead and flame me for being a noob… but My SuSE runs and I am very satisfied!
Anonymous, you are not a noob.
Anybody who has been using linux for a year, installed quite a few distros (especially Debian), is not a noob.
Have faith in yourself and the others will have faith in you.
Leo,
Re: “I agree that the reason my Debian installation was screwed up was mainly my fault. I recompiled the newest kernels with probably not enough knowledge about configuration options, ran a bunch of programs that were pulled directly from CVS, and ran some experimental packages. However, this does not make me unqualified for a SuSe review and really has nothing to do with it.”
Actually it does have everything to do with it. Linspire is based on Debian and so is many others but SuSE, Mandrake, Whitebox are basically based on RedHat because they use the RPM (RedHat Package Manager). If you had stated your several years experience included using another RPM based distro then I would be more understanding. Not all distros are the same either. To prove this I had trouble with installing Maya in Mandrake but have no issues installing in RedHat or SuSE. Of course Maya uses the RPM extension and it’s officially supported on RedHat not SuSE or Mandrake. Though why then did I have no issues or trouble installing it on SuSE but Mandrake gave me several errors?
Re: “Your hardware working has nothing to do with mine not working, even if it is the same hardware.”
If we use the same hardware and the same OS then we should experience the same troubles with the installation correct? I’m running SuSE Linux 9.1 Professional with the same keyboard and mouse you described but did not have any issues during the installation or with using the hardware. That’s why I found it difficult to understand your complaint was one for the keyboard and mouse configuration.
Re: “Yast is slow in performing common tasks that would be fast in Windows (like changing an IP address).”
First why are you comparing SuSE to Windows when you said you are a Debian user that is going back to Debian since you are dissatisfied with SuSE? Anyway, configuring a large network is the only thing that should take you any time. You could of experienced a net connection issue because SuSE may have improperly detected your Ethernet card. I had this issue with my HP card even back in 9.0 but also with Windows XP that detected it was a Realtek Ethernet card and not my HP hn230e model. When I later tested a SOHO Ethernet card SuSE auto detected it correctly and set up my DHCP by default to auto-detect my ISP. No matter what OS you use you are going to some time run into difficulty with setting up some hardware.
Re: “The Yast software installation, while great for installing the packages on the CD, is limited otherwise, I explained why in the article.”
SuSE could of included Apt-Get or some other similar web search engine like Kio-Apt. Those programs can be downloaded from the net and installed but really it’s not necessary. There’s a few ways to do things with SuSE regarding programs. You can either add an HTTP, FTP, etc rpm site to YaST or just obtain the program developer site. If you see a program (package) from a developer’s site that is compiled for rpm then simply click to download it in the Konqueror browser. Once downloaded YaST will detect the package and display a button in Konqueror “Install with YaST”. One click on that opens a window requesting the root password for YaST to install the program for security and away she’ll go. Auto-checking for package corruption or dependency issues. SuSE is the only distro I seen that does this other than Linspire. Though Linspire seems since I last tested it to allow even limited users the ability to install programs with out the use of an Administrator (root) password. Anyway, did you miss this integrated browser feature when you reviewed SuSE?
I and many other poster are not trying to jump down your throat. It just that it would be nice in future to see reviews by people with a wider range of experience, someone that has a little more patience and an open mind to make a constructive review.
Sorry for the bold print screw up Eugenia. Missed placing one “b” and more got bold printed than I wanted.
well debian is for the server, they dont have any gui programs like suse have yast.
i dont know how many desktop users that use debian, but if you have a look at http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/2004/06/threads.html there dont seems to be that many.
” Your PC has more to offer than the market-leading operating system reveals – more stability, more reliability, and more variety. In several editions for various user groups and needs, SUSE LINUX provides more than a mere alternative to the Windows family. With an installation routine that even newcomers can easily master, and with all advantages of the Open Source world.”
http://www.suse.com/us/index.html
i dont find that for debian..
and the best way is to install knoppix and do an hdinstall and upgrade it to sid.
why cant debian, port some or make some gui programs. like porting suse’s yast over. or all those “based on debian” distroes are porting gui programs from others distroes, why arent they at debians mirrors?
“Mandrake and Debian have always been community oriented distro’s while SuSE has always been a business oriented distro.”
According to Suse, Suse Linux 9.1 both standard and professional are for home use, not enterprise use. The enterprise desktop offering is called Suse Linux Desktop. At least that is the way it is listed on http://www.suse.com. Maybe it was in the past before they came out with the business offering, however the business offerings are now different.
I’m not an advance linux user, but I had no problem installing running SuSE. I think the author lacks intelligence or is faking that he is an experienced Debian user. If you can’t get SuSE to work right, how the heck did you make Debian work? Something is FISHY
The point isn’t necessarly that Suse is bad, but it’s not as easy to use as other FREE distros…
I recently bought 9.0 pro after trying the Live CDs for about a year or so. Previously, I bought 7.3 pro a while ago, but it just didn’t cut it…simple stuff just didn’t work right, of course at that time I couldn’t use it with internet due to my isp…so that made it EXTRA hard. I’ve had great success with Mepis and Knoppix and Gnoppix, so I figured I’d try out a “boxed” distro again. Actually, Suse is what I need to be using because I’d like to push linux in my area and there are lots of Novell shops in my area that could use the break.
Anyway, back to my point. many of the things that “just work” on a simple Live CD like Knoppix are quite user-unfriendly in Suse. There’s really no point to that! simple stuff like configuring network cards is entirely non-intuitive from YAST. I tried installing a wireless USB adapter, there were linux drivers available according to google, but absolutely no mention on Suse’s site…let alone figureing out how to get it going or what cryptic icon the config is under. I tried installing a generic RPM package from the OSNews a few days ago and it totally borked. True, there were dependancies to fix, but WHY? I’ve got 5 CDs of software AND an online connection to Suse’s update service but still have to do it by hand?
I’ve used some Linux here and there for a while, but I’m not a Linux Guru yet, so I’m exactly Suse’s target customer, I think. Now that Suse is pretty much the last dot.com distro still shipping in the consumer space, they really need to get with the program! This isn’t about Suse versus anybody else, but rather Suse being a very poor example of a linux product in terms of medium/advanced usability. It’s one of the Only distros big enough to actually get retail space…they can’t just sick their head in the sand and ignore cutting-edge stuff anymore and expect potential programmers/administrators to wait around for “offical” releases. It’s one of only a few distros you can point your boss to for as a trial of if you could move linux into your office…In many ways important to businesses it is “the” one. it’s one of the few distros with the full line of SUPPORTED versions on all sorts of crazy platforms. [notibly: 64-bit Opterons, Itanium, IBM P-series, IBM 390, & even IBM iSeries/AS400!!] But if the Professional…sandbox, if you will…edition doesn’t let you get right out there on the net and start exporing Linux and OSS to figure out how you can use linux for your own needs, then why would I want their other stuff?
I tried installing a generic RPM package from the OSNews a few days ago and it totally borked. True, there were dependancies to fix, but WHY?
There’s no such thing as a generic RPM. Although they share a common file format, packages are distribution-specific.
That’s because distributions differ in the directories where program files are meant to go as well as the names and versions of the packages that your RPM might depend on.
SuSe apt4rpm happens to offer about 1,500 packages on top of what you find in the CDs, and many of them are very useful.
But why oh why don’t they offer the extra packages as a Yast repository?
Why require users to install a second package manager when there already is a powerful graphical one that can manage multiple installation sources and resolve dependencies? That’s not doing anything for usability, is it? (even if you install synaptic or whatever on top of apt).
………maybe if you let go of a few cents for the CD’s and did a local install things might work a little better?
Quote ——
There’s no such thing as a generic RPM. Although they share a common file format, packages are distribution-specific.
end Quote —
there is generic RPM,u can install it in almost any rpm based distro, im sure i’v seen some packages at sf.net while ago and installed it ( don’t remember which programe)
If you had stated your several years experience included using another RPM based distro then I would be more understanding.
Well, batman, I’m a Debian user and I have to agree with the author. When I started out using Linux, I tried RedHat, because that’s what everyone was using. I hated it. Spending a weekend downloading RPM’s over dial-up in a never-ending dependancy hell wasn’t my idea of fun. So I thought I’d try this new, friendly distro Mandrake.
Well, Mandrake looked a little prettier, and it automagically set up my printer, but there I was–another weekend downloading RPM after RPM over 28.8 dial-up to get Windowmaker running . I have no problem with waiting awhile to download software, but at least give me a sign as to where it’s going to end.
So I decided to go out and buy the latest version of SuSE (7.3 at the time) with 3 CD’s full of software, I wouldn’t spend all weekend tying up the phone again.
Well, SuSE didn’t set up X correctly for my antiquated 15″ generic monitor, so I went in and hand tweaked XF86Config and I was happy. Then we lost power in a storm and after I rebooted, X was all wonky again. So, I went in and tweaked XF86Config again and all was, once again, well with the world. Then, I wanted to compile some software, so I killed X to save some CPU, when it finished compiling I started up X again and guess what? It was all wonky again.
As I soon discovered, yast routinely overwrote hand-tweaked system files with whatever it thought they should be. If you couldn’t figure out yast’s intuitive interface to configure your system, you were up the creek without a paddle. Even though your hand-edited config files would work on all of the other Linux systems, you were pretty much screwed on SuSE if you couldn’t make yast obey.
I’d read on several newsgroups and message boards about how all of the arrogant, uppity Debian users were so smug about how apt took care of package dependancies and how they would never go through RPM hell again. I hated those guys, but I was fed up with RedHat and Mandrake and SuSE and rpm in general. How many times during 48 hours are you supposed to type rpm -ivhvv blahblahi386.rpm?
And then I tried Debian. My hand-tweaked files stayed tweaked. My system did what I told it to do. If I wanted to install software, apt took care of all the dependancies. As far as being a beast to install…installing Debian was no more difficult than being able to read and follow directions. I didn’t completely break my system by upgrading the OS like when rpm broke on a RedHat upgrade. Anybody else painfully aware how valuable cpio is?
I still use a RPM-based distro at work (Yellow Dog Linux) to support an old G3 we set up as a server. When I upgraded to version 3, guess what happened? RPM broke and I got to bring out my handy knowledge of cpio, yet again, to salvage another broken, rpm-based, OS upgrade.
SuSE was bewildering to me when I was a beginner, I can only imagine how confused I would be after learning how Linux works only to have every change I made to the system overruled because I didn’t approve it through yast. SuSE is, at best, a set of training wheels. Just learn to ride the bike man.
Look Dark_Knight, I was going to take your criticisms seriously, but now I think you haven’t even read my article.
If you had stated your several years experience included using another RPM based distro then I would be more understanding.
I realize that my Debian knowledge doesn’t necessarily translate into Suse knowledge. But I am reasonably familiar with the way Linux in general works and I certainly know enough to figure out how to install any distribution out there. So now you’re suggesting I should have several years of experience on an RPM based distro before even having the authority to review one? Get real.
Not all distros are the same either.
Really? What a surprise. Do you hear that dripping sound? Thats sarcasm.
If we use the same hardware and the same OS then we should experience the same troubles with the installation correct?
No. Well maybe if we had the EXACT same hardware, down to the model number of every single component in our computers. Components interact in complex ways, you can’t assume that because your keyboard model X was detected that the same keyboard would be detected everywhere else. It’s not that simple.
First why are you comparing SuSE to Windows when you said you are a Debian user that is going back to Debian since you are dissatisfied with SuSE?
Well I couldn’t really compare it to Debian because in Debian I would have edited the /etc/network/interfaces file by hand followed by an ifup ethx. Now I assume I can do something similar in Suse, but I wanted to review Suse’s graphical tools, and compare their useability to something that a lot of people would be familiar with, Windows.
You could of experienced a net connection issue because SuSE may have improperly detected your Ethernet card.
No no no. My card was fine and my network was fine. My complaint was (which you would know had you read the article) that Yast went through the network card detection routine everytime I wanted to edit some network parameter like IP address or network mask.
There’s a few ways to do things with SuSE regarding programs. You can either add an HTTP, FTP, etc rpm site to YaST or just obtain the program developer site. If you see a program (package) from a developer’s site that is compiled for rpm then simply click to download it in the Konqueror browser. Once downloaded YaST will detect the package and display a button in Konqueror “Install with YaST”. One click on that opens a window requesting the root password for YaST to install the program for security and away she’ll go.
Umm.. It’s like you’re writing the article right back to me. Thats EXACTLY what I described!
Auto-checking for package corruption or dependency issues.
If you’re installing packages from the CD, then yes. If you just clicked on an rpm in a webpage, that depends on other rpms that are not on the cds, then NO. That does not work.
SuSE is the only distro I seen that does this other than Linspire.
You haven’t seen many distro’s then.
Anyway, did you miss this integrated browser feature when you reviewed SuSE?
Well if you read the article, you would have seen that I described _that_exact_feature_.
It just that it would be nice in future to see reviews by people with a wider range of experience, someone that has a little more patience and an open mind to make a constructive review.
Deal, I write better reviews, you agree to read the articles that you comment on in the future.
SuSe apt4rpm happens to offer about 1,500 packages on top of what you find in the CDs, and many of them are very useful.
But why oh why don’t they offer the extra packages as a Yast repository?
Why require users to install a second package manager when there already is a powerful graphical one that can manage multiple installation sources and resolve dependencies? That’s not doing anything for usability, is it? (even if you install synaptic or whatever on top of apt).
Provide a link of how to do it, is there a howto??
What directory structure is needed, what tools are
available besides create_package_descr???
I also tried SuSe 9.1 Pro after a few years of using Debs ‘cos I needed to install a new *nix box for use by someone at work and thought SuSe would be easier for them
But, heck, the install is just like Windoze – a lot of the time you don’t know what’s being configured, or why, or where the files are going (to that big SuSe special in /etc/ probably), and as for finding packages – dselect, the old veteran, wins hands down: you can see what they are, the version, the conflicts, and so on.
I wanted stuff like tkdesk and fte – where the hell were they in SuSe? And as for setting up my fav window manager fvwm instead of the heavy clumsy kde desktop, well, enough said.
Now, this is only the beginning… Configure X? xf86config works all the time.
Install Suse on an box with 64 MB of Ram? No way – Yast complains and the install stalls.
Now as for debian, again, there’s also apt-get – which rocks. Security updates? Debs wins hands down for ease of use.
Good old Debian! Long may it live.
Why doesn’t SuSe provide what you can get from apt as a Yast repository?
Well, there are at least two reasons I can think of:
1) It would increase their workload enormously
2) Some of the apt packages are “too hot to handle”, like all the libraries and codecs which allow you to play all sort of media, even copy an encrypted DVD.
I have already provided a link.
Here it is again:
http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/
Provide a link of how to do it, is there a howto?? What directory structure is needed, what tools are available besides create_package_descr???
There’s a mini howto here:
http://portal.suse.com/sdb/en/2004/02/yast_instsrc.html
I took a little look around; detailed descriptions can be found in the HTML docs that come with the “yast2-packagemanager-devel” package.
But, heck, the install is just like Windoze – a lot of the time you don’t know what’s being configured, or why, or where the files are going (to that big SuSe special in /etc/ probably), and as for finding packages – dselect, the old veteran, wins hands down: you can see what they are, the version, the conflicts, and so on.
Learn how to use rpm and you have the same functionality
I wanted stuff like tkdesk and fte – where the hell were they in SuSe? And as for setting up my fav window manager fvwm instead of the heavy clumsy kde desktop, well, enough said.
Okay tkdesk is not there, but fvwm and fte are. Just use SUSE package
installer to find it. Or use apt!
Now, this is only the beginning… Configure X? xf86config works all the time.
Use sax2
Now as for debian, again, there’s also apt-get – which rocks. Security updates? Debs wins hands down for ease of use.
Isn’t that available on all distributions nowadays.
At least it is not Debian alone anymore.
Why doesn’t SuSe provide what you can get from apt as a Yast repository?
I meant, why don’t the “apt for SuSE” people provide their additional packages as a Yast repository?
That would save users the effort of installing and learning another packagae management tool and would integrate more seamlessly with what SuSE offers.
Why doesn’t SuSe provide what you can get from apt as a Yast repository?
I meant, why don’t the “apt for SuSE” people provide their additional packages as a Yast repository?
That would save users the effort of installing and learning another packagae management tool and would integrate more seamlessly with what SuSE offers.
Yast is only available for SUSE. Apt is available for almost any distribution.
So, if you’re running an installation with mixed distributions apt is a
good way to obtain a consistent package updater/installer.
However, no one stops you from contacting the apt repository maintainers
to help them in providing YOU repositories.
Yast is only available for SUSE. Apt is available for almost any distribution.
True enough, but it doesn’t buy you anything. You still need a separate repository for each distribution, so you might as well use the “native” tools.
So, if you’re running an installation with mixed distributions apt is a good way to obtain a consistent package updater/installer.
Now that’s a bit contrived, isn’t it?
Yast is only available for SUSE. Apt is available for almost any distribution.
But that doesn’t buy you anything. You still need a separate repository for each distribution, so you might as well use the “native” tools.
(Besides, Yast is GPL’ed now and its packager should work under any RPM distribution. Not that it would be very useful without repositories.)
So, if you’re running an installation with mixed distributions apt is a good way to obtain a consistent package updater/installer.
Now that’s a bit contrived, isn’t it?
For most home and small office users will run only one distribution, but they will still have to deal with the added inconsistency of two separate package managers.
For larger organisations the consistency would only be skin-deep; administrators would still have to deal with separate dependency trees, repositories and configuration tools. Running a mixed-distribution environment is not a terribly good idea anyway, you’d need very good reasons to do so.
Your review was useful. I’ve been a redhat and now Fedora Core user for years, and I’m always interested in how the other distributions work. I’ve wanted to try mandrake and suse, but I’m not interested in paying for linux (kind of defeats the intent of open source, doesn’t it?). Anyway, I was wondering if you’d be able to try out FC2 and see what you think about it vs. debian and suse.
Along these five years I have the chance to prove Mandrake (first of all), Red Hat, Suse, Debian. I always prefer linux than Mac or Windows but, I couldn’t feel perfectly integrated with any distributions and until now I have had Red Hat (8.0 and 9) (I like Debian too). Yestarday I installed Slackware, it’s great!! Easy to install, robust and, the most important, simple.
Let me get this straight. You churn out the longest blog of drivel in these posts thus far based on this???
“So I decided to go out and buy the latest version of SuSE (7.3 at the time) with 3 CD’s full of software, I wouldn’t spend all weekend tying up the phone again”
Are you kidding me? Seriously. You’re talking about a crusty old version from many years ago. This article is about SuSE 9.1 not SuSE 7.ancient. That would be like saying that Windows sucks and its such a pain in the ass because I had so many problems getting Win98 to run stable.
Welcome to the club of Linux users that know SuSE is even worse than Winblowz 95
All you say is correct, but there’s much more to YaST and the SuSE configuration paradigm than you seem to have explored. Eg, YaST helps enormously with setting up RAID systems, firewalls and profiles for roaming laptop users, which is a SuSE development, BTW.
Regarding multimedia, I must, unfortunately, agree with you.
Nevertheless: Debian is too much of a religion for me, that’s why I am using SuSE, Slackware and ROCK Linux (you might like that…). All three are down-to-earth and driven by user needs instead of philosophical debates.
By no means I’d say that Debian is a poor distribution in terms of technology, but I always had the feeling that for many things there’s a specific “Debian way” to do it, which means, that things you learn are only useful on Debian, but useless on other distros.
I really think that part of your experience is caused by the fact, that you were just used to Debian for several years. In turn, all I just said about Debian may be caused by the fact that I just got used to SuSE over the years. However, I was able to do things on Slackware and ROCK using my SuSE experience, but I had difficulties to get what I wanted on Debian.
But in fact, one of the great things about Linux is, that there is more than one option. More than one product (distribution, ie), more than one vendor.
Perhaps Windows would be a good “distribution” if Microsoft wasn’t the sole “distributor”… 😉
Alex
Hi to all.. Isn’t this distro thing kinda like having a car? you like chevs, I like fords, mine is blue, yours is red. But underneath I use it to get from point A to point B. And maybe I have a hot rod too ,to get to point b first.No matter what I have for a car..it’s just preferance & needs.You have a nice car too.
I run Debian/no windoze, just know Deb best.It works for me. I am a newbie-2 years Linux.
I am just happy to be able to run Linux instead of M$.
It was funny to read all this…Well WinXP is stupid thing, everyone knows this, but realy can play all…After 2min. of instal…Suse is beautyfull and shit.
Much easier than Debian with ncurses based menus but not the hassle and time consuming YaST
When Red Hat announced that Red Hat 9 (Professional) was the last of their “commercial” desktop products, I looked at Mandrake, Suse and Debian. I finally chose Debian (woody) because of the volume of packages … something like 8000, with a tad over 15,000 in the testing release. What I ended up with on a regular basis was a Knoppix hard-disk install updated from “sarge”.
Then I discovered Gentoo. At the time, their repository only had about 4,000 packages … it’s about 7010 now and climbing daily. I was dual-booted for a while, and I still track Knoppix and its scientific derivative Quantian, but for my “production” desktop, I run Gentoo. I have a fair number of experimental packages (“~x86” in Gentoo terminology); on the whole I’m happy. There are a few things I want that aren’t in Gentoo yet, but I build them directly from source.
I’ve never tried either Mandrake or Suse; I was used to going down to CompUSA and buying a Red Hat box set and decided I was ready to leave the “commercial” GNU/Linux world and join a community. Both Debian and Gentoo have a community approach.
“Are you kidding me? Seriously. You’re talking about a crusty old version from many years ago. This article is about SuSE 9.1 not SuSE 7.ancient.”
Since you’re obviously not quick enough to get the point, let me break it down further for you…
Running SuSE 7.3 was frustrating for new users back then, and nothing’s changed with the newer versions, as the author of the article points out.
“That would be like saying that Windows sucks and its such a pain in the ass because I had so many problems getting Win98 to run stable.”
Win98 was problematic getting to run stable, so are the NT4, Win2000, WinME and WinXP boxes I have to administer on a near daily basis. Looks like you have a talent for making pointless analogies.
Any other criticisms?
I bought SUSE 9.1 with high hopes that Novell’s influence should have led to a more usable SUSE desktop. My experience was an utterly disappointing one.
Only one of the four mice I tried, and one only out of five screens were properly recognized, apart of many other problems. None of the items are exotic. I asked one of my Linux geeks – I have access to this truly admirable species – to look into the problem, and he put his honour into solving it. The first mouse took him an hour, googling and hacking around, but then things went fast. Watching him I calculated that, with something like a programmers week of time, SUSE could have provided a product with proper recognition for most mice, screens, and keyboards, and with many other of the problems I encountered solved.
Cosidering that this distribution costs about 100 Euros, I think that this lack of attention to a desktop user’s needs bodes ill for Novell’s future desktop endavours.
By the way, each one of the following distributions I tested recognized all hardware correctly: Xandros, Linspire, Knoppix, and MEPIS. MEPIS appears to me as harbouring particular promise for desktops, and Knoppix is of special interest to me as a scientist because of derivatives like Quantix. So it won’t be SUSE for certain in any of my labs.
There is so much nitpicking that it is pathetic.
-Yast is a great tool if you spend some time with it.
-Video is a pain in linux…period.
-Not all buttons on mice work the same in all distros – very minor XF86Config issue, if you knew so much about linux you should have been able to edit this yourself without dealing in Yast
Bottom line: This guy is just looking for stuff to complain about to defend Debian, if there were any “real” problems that would be something entirely different, but the issues that he exposed – for any seasoned user, should be a breeze to fix.