That’s what Bill Joy, Silicon Valley legend, says that markets need to do, but don’t (free reg. req.).
Bill Joy: Proceed With Caution
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/magazine/06ENCOUNTER.html?ex=1087…
Some good thoughts, if a little gloomy.
I’m not sure I agree with slowing down scientific research. Mainly because advances in science have a tendency to come in bursts, not as a result of some scheduled progression. Therefore I’m not convinced that simply reducing the amount of research done would slow actual progress.
I guess, if we wished to slow things down, it would involve prohibiting certain areas of research that were deemed dangerous. However that just brings a whole new set of problems. Who decides what is likely to become dangerous? Who polices scientific research? How far can our liberties be acceptably curtailed by restriction of information? etc.
It’s not that I don’t agree with his sentiments, more that I see no mechanism which could actually provide a solution.
Notice that the article doesn’t source anyone for Bill-Joy-as-deity moniker. As most people in Silicon Valley know — and anyone inside of Sun knows — Bill Joy did next to nothing on the projects that supposedly bear witness to his alleged brilliance. It was particularly ironic that upon his departure he was credited with “architecting” Solaris, given that the most amount of effort he expended on Solaris was an effort to kill it in favor of Windows NT circa 1993. Fortunately, history ultimately will catch up with Bill Joy: it’s going to be far more difficult for Joy to claim credit for Sun’s work in the coming years. Still, claiming credit is Joy’s true gift; I wouldn’t be surprised if he found a way to pull it off…
The rumors are true! There really is no Joy at Sun!
Notice that the article doesn’t source anyone for Bill-Joy-as-deity moniker. As most people in Silicon Valley know — and anyone inside of Sun knows — Bill Joy did next to nothing on the projects that supposedly bear witness to his alleged brilliance. It was particularly ironic that upon his departure he was credited with “architecting” Solaris, given that the most amount of effort he expended on Solaris was an effort to kill it in favor of Windows NT circa 1993. Fortunately, history ultimately will catch up with Bill Joy: it’s going to be far more difficult for Joy to claim credit for Sun’s work in the coming years. Still, claiming credit is Joy’s true gift; I wouldn’t be surprised if he found a way to pull it off…
So does Bill “Chicken Little” Joy think he’s being insightful by concluding that science and technology can produce things that might cause harm?
No one credited Joy with the engineering of Solaris 2.x, he was however one -if not the main- architect behind SunOS (which in case you do really work for SUN you should know that they’re two different beasts at least after Solaris 1.x). He did a lot of the work in creating the BSD system, and wrote a bunch of utilities that a lot of people still use. For that he is a very well respected figure in the technology field.
if this caution and fearfulness of the future is just the unconscious manifestation of a wealthy man’s desire to protect his stake in the world. Someone famous once said they would give away half their wealth if they knew the other half would be safe. Or was he always like this?
vi
Thanks
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html
Joy’s article in Wired titled “Why the future doesn’t need us” also makes for even more in depth reading. I hope he actually gets his “unpublished” essays and books published.
I agree with his views. Especially nano technology. Once the self replicating machines get going how knows what the hell will happen. Contained and moderated labs are needed. There is no telling when one experiment can cause global eradication of our entire species.
Many other futurists view the coming times all going into one point called the “Singularity” see here http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/vinge/misc/singularity.html
It’s a time where the technological innovation leads to “something wonderful”. We must adapt to change.
No one credited Joy with the engineering of Solaris 2.x
They did, actually. Or rather, he took as much credit as he could with a straight face. He also happily took credit for SPARC (when there was more credit than blame associated with SPARC), Java, Jini, MAJC and anything else that looked like it was taking off.
he was however one -if not the main- architect behind SunOS
Um, no. Joy had absolutely nothing to do with SunOS 4.x’s main contributions to operating systems — namely, its VM system and its linker. Joy can legitimately claim credit for vi, but he also must take complete blame for csh — leaving his net actual contribution at about epsilon.
I suspect that out there somewhere are some ecologists that think that reducing the human population of the planet by a few billion would be quite good for the rest of inhabitants.
If you wanted to truly optimistic you’d understand that nothing is forever. We are surely destined for eventual extinction. When we wipe ourselves and our entire planet out, it will mean nothing to the rest of the universe.
It’s still a damn shame what we are doing to ourselves, and to our beautiful planet though.
He also happily took credit for SPARC (when there was more credit than blame associated with SPARC)
Bill Joy rightfully deserved the credit for SPARC
http://www.sparc.org/history.html
Um, no. Joy had absolutely nothing to do with SunOS 4.x’s main contributions to operating systems — namely, its VM system and its linker. Joy can legitimately claim credit for vi, but he also must take complete blame for csh — leaving his net actual contribution at about epsilon.
If I am not mistaken SunOs 4.x was based on BSD. And joy was a chief contributor to BSD. Am I missing something here.
“Bill Joy, the inspiration behind BSD, leaves CSRG at Berkeley to co-found Sun Microsystems.”
http://snap.nlc.dcccd.edu/learn/drkelly/hst-hand.htm
given that the most amount of effort he expended on Solaris was an effort to kill it in favor of Windows NT circa 1993.
Can you prove this statement? Form what I have read joy hated microsoft and windows.
He must have been some kind of asshole to write something like that.
There is a motive which is stronger than self-preservation: it is the desire to get the better of the other fellow
Human nature rears its ugly head. He is just now coming across this idea becasue he read someones book?
I respect his opinions of course but i feel he, like many people of his ilk are so out of touch with everyday reality. He is not much different than the Conspiracy theory people who think space aliens are running the worlds governments…on second thought those guys i think are right about at least France and Germany’s governments.
Seriously chicken little has been around for years and will exist as long as humans are around. Bill Joy=Silicon Valley Ted Kaczynski nuff said.
I agree with his views. Especially nano technology. Once the self replicating machines get going how knows what the hell will happen. Contained and moderated labs are needed. There is no telling when one experiment can cause global eradication of our entire species.
Sorry, will never happen.
you know, bill joy helped write bsd
I’m sure Bill Joy is happy to have so many people here who steadfastly believe that he has done so much. Regarding SPARC: Joy contributed very little of substance to either V8 or V9. As for BSD: does anyone believe that Joy did more than, say, McKusick? And again: he did practically nothing on SunOS 4.x, and absolutely nothing on Solaris. In terms of proof that Joy advocated killing Solaris for NT: you’re just going to have to take my word for it. (He probably wouldn’t deny it, actually.) Joy (infamously) sold all of his SUNW and bought MSFT with the proceeds sometime in the early 1990s, so that should indicate his bias that NT was the future.
The only thing that Joy has done in the last ten years without any adult assistance is to write creepy Unabomber-esque manifestos about the dangers of the technology that he claims to have had some role in creating. Personally, I think he’s completely losing whatever grip he may once have had. He should consider himself lucky that no one has published his 50,000 word diatribe; publishing it would probably land him on an FBI watchlist somewhere…
He must have been some kind of asshole to write something like that.
Thank goodness you’re here to speak for those of us who use and love vi.
<operating system> (BSD) A family of Unix versions for the
DEC VAX and PDP-11, developed by Bill Joy and others
at the University of California at Berkeley. BSD Unix
incorporates paged virtual memory, TCP/IP networking
enhancements, and many other features.
I don’t know, looks like everyone seems to think he was the main guy programming it at berkeley.
I thought that Joy was more an advocate of component based software, and not NT specifically. Last I read from him (still looking for link, sorry) he was praising Mac OS X, saying something along the lines of it being what Windows and Solaris should have been, or some such thing.
he could have really shaped sun and such if he stayed with them.. atleast he would play a major roll in a major company rather than small..
I’m sure Bill Joy is happy to have so many people here who steadfastly believe that he has done so much. Regarding SPARC: Joy contributed very little of substance to either V8 or V9.
First he didn’t contribute anything to SPARC, now he didn’t to V8 and V9. He started SPARC and he deserves credit for it. He started BSD and deserves credit for it too. Once you reach Bill Joy’s level in an organization your time is more properly spent on guidance and leadership on projects than actual grunt work coding. From the looks of it you are not that high up in th Sun heirarchy and are doing the grunt work.
As for BSD: does anyone believe that Joy did more than, say, McKusick? And again: he did practically nothing on SunOS 4.x, and absolutely nothing on Solaris.
He did nothing in what capacity??? Joy probably had enough clout to influence a lot of desicsions that went into Solaris. Most Sun fellows probably don’t code day to day projects. Dr. Trembly doesn’t design and implement CPUs but is credited to many designs.
In terms of proof that Joy advocated killing Solaris for NT: you’re just going to have to take my word for it.
Why becuase you work for Sun?
(He probably wouldn’t deny it, actually.) Joy (infamously) sold all of his SUNW and bought MSFT with the proceeds sometime in the early 1990s, so that should indicate his bias that NT was the future.
Joy excercised options in 92, which would make sense becuase options do expire. Diversifying investment doesn’t mean that joy bleieved that NT was the future.
There is no proof that he ever had large holdings of MSFT stock. A Sun cofounder buying large amounts of MSFT stock would have generated headlines and a google sreach yields nothing. Also this is the first time I have heard this claim.
Microsoft’s blind spot
http://news.com.com/2010-1071-831385.html
If he really believed NT was the future he wouldn’t have bought a mac.
Bill Joy is a very very brilliant man. He keeps company with nobel laureates and distiguished members of the scientific community.
From your baseless claims and reading Bill Joy’s views it is quite clear who the reall lunatic is among the two.
i don’t know if he works for sun, im sure you can make your ip show up as that too somehow.
joy helped form sun, he did alot of the early work, then he pooped out. he started saying this kind of stuff and left sun. im sure he could have done alot more for sun if he had motivation or something, i dont know what happend to bill joy, why did he just give out anyway..
while joy was in his prime (programming prime) he did some remarkable things, like the open sparc archetecture (anyone can make a sparc cpu if they have the ability)..and the bsd system which helped benifit commercial unix vendors.
“He must have been some kind of asshole to write something like that.”
Well I guess you have never used ed, right? Vi was godsent when it was released, believe me!
As for the .sun.com troll, nice IP spoofing btw. I assume you did not even knew that SunOS was BSD to the core up to a few years back. And I wonder who did write a big chunk of BSD… hum?
First he didn’t contribute anything to SPARC, now he didn’t to V8 and V9.
Of course, V8 and V9 are the bulk of the intellectual heavy-lifting… (You do understand that the last V7 CPU was made more than a decade ago, right?)
He did nothing in what capacity??? Joy probably had enough clout to influence a lot of desicsions that went into Solaris. Most Sun fellows probably don’t code day to day projects. Dr. Trembly [sic] doesn’t design and implement CPUs but is credited to many designs..
I don’t know why I’m wasting my time responding to this, but I guess I can’t resist trying to set the record straight… Joy had absolutely zero clout with the Solaris engineers. His attempt to kill Solaris in 1993 was absolutely in earnest, and he completely burned any potential bridge he may have had. Indeed, there is not a single OS design decision made in the last 15 years was in any way attributable to Joy. And it’s a slap in Marc’s face to imply that he is as far removed from reality as Joy. Quite the contrary, Marc very much makes implementation-level design decisions on the microprocessors that he has led. Marc would know — one of his projects (MAJC) was one that Joy infamously swooped in on to claim credit. MAJC was a complete flop, but Marc could (can) tell you pretty much every implementation detail about that microprocessor. (Contrast that to Joy, who probably can’t even tell you for sure if the CPU ever shipped or not.)
But hey, don’t listen to me: you can continue believing that Joy invented everything from the transistor to the database for all I care. And given that you seem to be the kind of person who needs someone to worship, I’ll kindly stop sullying your adulation with the facts of the case. But a final warning: given Joy’s recent rants, you may want to watch your step; Joy True Believers may quickly find themselves defending the Joy Compound from the ATF — assuming, that is, that they don’t conk themselves out on a phenobarb cocktail in an effort to rejoin the mother ship…
Enjoyed your perspective on Joy, even if it may be biased. Even without your commentary the article makes it pretty clear that the right thing was done in s417-canning him quietly. So when are you guys gonna give McNealy the same well-deserved treatment? And what the hell’s up with that Schwartz guy, while we’re at it?
Of course, V8 and V9 are the bulk of the intellectual heavy-lifting… (You do understand that the last V7 CPU was made more than a decade ago, right?) </>
So was the last Sun V8 CPU. The v9 architecture was published over a decade ago as well. Your point??
[i]I don’t know why I’m wasting my time responding to this, but I guess I can’t resist trying to set the record straight… Joy had absolutely zero clout with the Solaris engineers.
Now or when Solaris was formed.
His attempt to kill Solaris in 1993 was absolutely in earnest, and he completely burned any potential bridge he may have had. Indeed, there is not a single OS design decision made in the last 15 years was in any way attributable to Joy.
You are saying that joy had nothing to do with Sun’s OS decisions in 1989. You must be joking right. What are your qualifications and If you really do work for Sun, reveal your self. I have enough contacts in Sun to verify what you do there and if you would be privy to the information you claim to have.
And it’s a slap in Marc’s face to imply that he is as far removed from reality as Joy. Quite the contrary, Marc very much makes implementation-level design decisions on the microprocessors that he has led.
I didn’t claim Marc Tremblay was not involved in decision making. But I am sure he doesn’t implement anything in terms of RTL and Coding.
Marc would know — one of his projects (MAJC) was one that Joy infamously swooped in on to claim credit.
Care to point me to where Joy took credit for MAJC?
MAJC was a complete flop, but Marc could (can) tell you pretty much every implementation detail about that microprocessor. (Contrast that to Joy, who probably can’t even tell you for sure if the CPU ever shipped or not.)
And you would know this how?? Did Joy personally make statements about MAJC.
But hey, don’t listen to me: you can continue believing that Joy invented everything from the transistor to the database for all I care.
That’s exactly what I am going to do, stop listening to your nonsense. You may have something personal against Joy but I don’t.
And given that you seem to be the kind of person who needs someone to worship, I’ll kindly stop sullying your adulation with the facts of the case.
I don’t need to worship anyone. But the facts of the case are that you haven;t made one claim that can be easily verified and the best your can offer is “take my word for it”.
Since you’re asking me for my opinion, I guess we’ve given up the absurd notion that I’m spoofing my IP…
I may not be able to be objective about McNealy — I think he’s the best CEO in the history of the industry, full stop. (Counter-example?) And, exclusively among today’s CEOs in the industry, he has made gigantic bets that others thought were fool-hardy that turned out to be unbelievably right. (NFS, SMP and Java come to mind here — but there are others.) And I like playing in the sandbox that McNealy made, so (at least as far as I’m concerned), he stays.
As for Schwartz, I don’t know anybody who thinks less than very highly of him. (Such uniformly high praise is a rarity at Sun to the point of being practically unique.) He’s bright, energetic and decisive — and he’s frequently right. (Being frequently right is an oft overlooked but critically important attribute — if you’re frequently wrong, being bright, energetic and decisive just acts as a force multiplier as to the amount of damage you can do.) If you haven’t seen it, the recent Register article captures Sun engineering sentiment pretty perfectly, in my opinion:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/03/sun_uses_theschwartz/
“I may not be able to be objective about McNealy — I think he’s the best CEO in the history of the industry, full stop. (Counter-example?) ”
Dan Dodge at QNX.
I never imagined Bill Joy as the semi-paranoic guy this interview makes him look like. Gotta confess I am a bit disappointed.
“I may not be able to be objective about McNealy — I think he’s the best CEO in the history of the industry, full stop. (Counter-example?)”
Not sure if they’re CEO’s, but they seem to be virtually in the same position – how about Sergei Brin and Larry Page? They don’t seem to have done anything wrong.
I may not be able to be objective about McNealy — I think he’s the best CEO in the history of the industry, full stop. (Counter-example?)
How about Bill Gates, Michael Dell ??? They both made huge bets and made thier companies better than Sun. How about Lou Gerstner, Steve Jobs??? They both resurrected dying companies.
McNealy made huge blunders as well. From what I know he has made huge mispredictions that have almost killed Sun. His views about Storage not being a business made sure EMC got a nice launching pad in the dot com boom, competitors like IBM and HP have vastly superior storgage offerings. Sun’s storage division is struggling to keep up and OEMing hitachi and dothill to still try and compete. Huge blunder. I can go on, there are more. Sun is now going to have to Partner with fujistu to be able to even hope to compete with IBM’s onslaught in the UNIX server space, McNealy pretty much let IBM sneak up on Sun through the blind spot. He foucsed too much on bad mouthing Microsoft and Sueing them and not enough on a lot of other real dangers to Sun’s business.
Sun doesn’t make much money on NFS and Java. IBM, BEA and Oracle make more money on Java than Sun. Nice bets.
From the looks of it you are too imerrsed in Joy hatred to know why Sun is where it is today.
I have to admit Schwartz seems like an intelligent guy but he too let’s his mount slip. He needs to concenrate on returning Sun to profitabilty and not confuse people with his rehtoric.
his mount slip
Mouth slip.
“I may not be able to be objective about McNealy — I think he’s the best CEO in the history of the industry, full stop. (Counter-example?) ”
Dan Dodge at QNX.
Dan’s a good guy and a great engineer — but he’s no McNealy by a long shot. (Witness that they both started their companies at roughly the same time, but Sun is ~US$12 billion/year in revenue, while QNX is < US$1 billion.)
“I don’t know why I’m wasting my time responding to this, but I guess I can’t resist trying to set the record straight.”
Well since you can’t resist, I’d like to know who you would credit the development of SunOS and Solaris to, if not Bill Joy. As far BSD goes, Greg Lehey says in the Complete FreeBSD that Joy did most of the writing of the code. So ar you saying you know more about BSD and it’s history than Grog? Also, since you’re claiming inside knowledge on this, just high up in Sun are you? Are you actually in a position to know things, or mereley stating opinion? For all we know you could be a janitor there.
Are you sure you can equate the success of a CEO with the revenue of the firm? When the products are different (and have different targets)?
right, you cannot compare the 2 CEOs unless if they were both in the same marketplace.
I personally don’t think McNealy nor Dodge could do a good job in making sun more successful. McNealy is in a rut and won’t get out of it. I think Johnathon Schwartz will lead sun to profitability. I think Schwartz will kill McNealy’s bash of system builders’ idea “why buy the parts when you can get the whole car” and went on to say its the past and stuff, well no its the future.
Sun needed new leadership that wasn’t living in the past. McNealy and Joy were not good execs for the new erra of network computing. Schwartz is. I’m placing my bets that Schartz will turn sunw around. You cannot judge this guy by some of the interviews he’s done.