“My team and other teams within Novell continue to develop and use Gtk as their toolkit (recently open sourced Simias/iFolder for instance) and all of the Mono GUI development tools. The only use of Qt that am aware of today is SUSE’s recently open sourced YAST” said Ximian’s Miguel de Icaza replying on Heise’s recent article on standardization of Novell on Qt.Elsewhre, Novell announced at Brainshare last week a move away from the NetWare brand name to Open Enterprise Server for their flagship product. This product will incorporate technologies from SuSE Linux and the venerable NetWare platform, as reported at NWFusion.
Miguel de Icaza On Novell and Toolkits; Novell Drops NetWare Name
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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114 Comments
2004-03-29 11:37 pm
Anonymous
Rafal,
It is bewildering that you do not see the serious contradiction in terms that you, as well as many other Gnomers, run into.
Gnome was started because KDE was encumbered by a proprietary toolkit, which was then subsequently made free software or GPLed, however you wish to put it.
The Gnome project for years patted itself on the back for being the true standard bearer of GPL software. And now you claim that KDE and QT pose a disadvantage because it is all GPL software. You also expect Trolltech to give away its toolkit so that proprietary software houses can make money, yet they have no right to make money.
Trolltech’s position is entirely consistent. If you are developing a GPL application, we play nice and give you our code under the GPL. If you want to take our code and use it in a proprietary app, we believe we ought to get paid as you will.
Gnomers have gone from claiming the sky is falling because KDE is too proprietary to claiming that the sky is falling because KDE is too free. Rhetorical question: What do you really care about free or propietary software?
For most software houses, even for an individual developer, the $1000 that trolltech charges is pocket change. If you do not plan to make at least $1000 from your proprietary app, are you sure that you want to be developing it as such?
2004-03-29 11:48 pm
Anonymous
Precisely.
It is more than hypocrisy that a GNU project like Gnome now claims they were even _more free_ than the Free Software license, the GPL.
As I see, theyre about to change the Free as in “free speach” to Free as in “business friendly”.
Too sad.
2004-03-29 11:58 pm
Anonymous
Gnome was started because KDE was encumbered by a proprietary toolkit, which was then subsequently made free software or GPLed, however you wish to put it.
True.
The Gnome project for years patted itself on the back for being the true standard bearer of GPL software. And now you claim that KDE and QT pose a disadvantage because it is all GPL software.
I didn’s say it’s a disadvantage. I said some peaple think so. For example companies that do not want to pay TrollTech for commercial license, becauset they prefer work on toolkit themselves (i.e. RedHat on GTK).
You also expect Trolltech to give away its toolkit so that proprietary software houses can make money, yet they have no right to make money.
I don’t expect it. And didn’t say so. I think they have full rights to earn money from their work. But maybe I would like not to buy their soft. If so, GTK is better for me.
Trolltech’s position is entirely consistent. If you are developing a GPL application, we play nice and give you our code under the GPL. If you want to take our code and use it in a proprietary app, we believe we ought to get paid as you will.
I have nothing against TrollTech bussines plan.
Gnomers have gone from claiming the sky is falling because KDE is too proprietary to claiming that the sky is falling because KDE is too free. Rhetorical question: What do you really care about free or propietary software?
Some GNOME devs did, some didn’t. It is their oppinion. Please don’t consider any camp as consistent, one opinion group, because this is not the case.
[i]For most software houses, even for an individual developer, the $1000 that trolltech charges is pocket change. If you do not plan to make at least $1000 from your proprietary app, are you sure that you want to be developing it as such?[i]
I agree with you. I work as developer and I consider every platform I am aware of when starting new project. For some soft Qt is a right tool. But if I would start linux centric company compared to Ximian or RedHat I would go for GTK.
2004-03-30 12:04 am
Anonymous
It is more than hypocrisy that a GNU project like Gnome now claims they were even _more free_ than the Free Software license, the GPL.
Who said so?
As I see, theyre about to change the Free as in “free speach” to Free as in “business friendly”.
LGPL is a little bit more friendly for commercial soft than GPL. Don’t you think?
2004-03-30 12:19 am
2004-03-30 12:56 am
Anonymous
stop with the LGPL think open source software didn’t come to bring pepole free software and defently not to company’s who want to make money from free software qt it’s good toolkit u can use with gpl software u wanna make money from it so pay u wanna use gtk+ use it (if u think that c and callback r the right technollogy to gui today).
the facts r there none gtk commercial apps and plenty QT apps this r facts who like to argu abot it please bring facts.
2004-03-30 1:01 am
Anonymous
SUSE / Novell employs a lot of hackers working full / part time in Qt/KDE plus YAST:
– Waldo Bastian: he is everywhere. He is the Havoc of KDE, just a bit shy 
– Lubus Lunack: kwin
– Jan: OOo integration to KDE
– Supports Scribus, the only serious free publishing app, one that some people love to forget…
And many others.
So either Nat is very badly informed, or he is passing a false message.
Cheers,
Amadeu
2004-03-30 1:02 am
Anonymous
Just a couple of things I noticed from watching the keynote videos and session slides from BrainShare.
It seemed during desktop-oriented demos, XD2/Gnome was used, and during server-oriented demos, KDE was chosen.
When Novell rolls out the linux desktop internally, it will be SuSE 9.x with XD2 (from session TUT200 slides).
2004-03-30 1:04 am
2004-03-30 1:21 am
Anonymous
To who you reply to?
stop with the LGPL think open source software didn’t come to bring pepole free software and defently not to company’s who want to make money from free software
So?
qt it’s good toolkit u can use with gpl software u wanna make money from it so pay u wanna use gtk+ use it
Qt is nice toolkit. I don’t have anything against its dual license. But don’t assume it is the best tool for any job and every one will share you opinion.
(if u think that c and callback r the right technollogy to gui today).
I don’t have to use c with GTK. There is no right technollogy for gui today. And there never will be. Please, don’t get into battle of which toolkit and language is better. Wasted time. As many opinions as developers. There are aspects of every solution that some developers consider advantage or disadvantage. That list of pros/cons depends on person who wrote it and purpose of compared toolkits.
the facts r there none gtk commercial apps and plenty QT apps this r facts who like to argu abot it please bring facts.
Statement that there are no gtk commercial apps, you consider a fact? Prove it.
2004-03-30 1:37 am
Anonymous
I can’t resist…
Statement that there are no gtk commercial apps, you consider a fact? Prove it.
It is impossible to prove such a thing. He would have to ask all developers in the world if they have a commercial app written with GTK.
That said, GTK is a nice toolki, and I amj sure commercial apps exist. Isn’t the Ximian Connector a gtk commercial app?
2004-03-30 1:45 am
Anonymous
It is impossible to prove such a thing. He would have to ask all developers in the world if they have a commercial app written with GTK.
Of course it is impossible to do so. It was sarcasm.
But person wrote:
“this r facts who like to argu abot it please bring facts”
So he some how got that proven. 😉
2004-03-30 2:09 am
Anonymous
“Open Enterprise Server” ? Sounds alot like “Open Server” I bet they’ll get slapped with more claims in the lawsuit against em 😉 I personally like NetWare, its shorter 
2004-03-30 2:13 am
Anonymous
From a business pov, Qt is better for Novell because it allows them to continue to pour money into KDE development without the possibility of someone ripping them off by profiting of of their labor. The Qt dual license approach is a much better idea for them than LGPLing the whole thing and allowing anyone to use it without giving them a cent.
I had a friend who worked at Sun who told me that they really wished they’d just bought Trolltech instead of propping up Gtk. No one believed me or him at the time but Looking Glass is sure proving us right.
It makes no sense for Novell to choose Gtk. They bought Ximian for its programmers’ intimate knowledge of Mono and the RedCarpet technology. There’s nothing stopping them from applying those things to the Qt/KDE scene. It will be interesting to see if SuSE continues to support the KDE Exchange project, though. Choosing Qt also makes more sense for Novell as a distributor because there are many commercial applications that would like to make Linux ports but they are afraid of using OSS libraries like Gtk. Qt dominance would allow these applications to be ported w/o their companies having to fear that they’d picked the wrong architecture. Many companies are in this boat like Macromedia, Adobe, Corel, Intuit, and others.
Many of the zealots that read this site may hate proprietary software but fail to realize that its presence is the only way that their dreams of world domination can come to realization.
2004-03-30 2:22 am
Anonymous
Choosing Qt also makes more sense for Novell as a distributor because there are many commercial applications that would like to make Linux ports but they are afraid of using OSS libraries like Gtk.
You can write a proprietary app based on Gtk, because the licence of Gtk is LGPL, and not GPL: it’s exactly like Qt, but you don’t have to pay for the priviledge.
chris
2004-03-30 2:36 am
Anonymous
This is one brave soul, who decides to argue aagainst the grain about the toolkits. GTK is preferred (by Redhat at least and by others), because it does not force a license on you. t does not force any obligation on you unless you change GTK itself, which is what we think (hope) many companies will not do unnecessarily.
GTK is well suited for proprietary and open source development. I dno not know in what world there is no risk of picking the wrong architecture. Its not like Qt is decreed to be perfect. It can be wrong for your needs.
2004-03-30 2:37 am
Anonymous
i think you are talking about the canopy group. lots of people attribute canopy to alot of shady dealings, however having never worked for any company associated with the canopy group i cannot say either way with authority
i think canopy is just a VC group honestly, but in this day and age who knows.
2004-03-30 2:41 am
Anonymous
NOOOOOOOOO! No, no, no, no no! TrollTech is an entirely independent privately-owned company. Novell is also an entirely seperate company, with no ties to SCO other than the fact they’ve got a large concentration of employees located in Utah.
There is a venture capital firm called Canopy Group that SCO is a part of, but between the two of them they have less than a 6% share of TrollTech. They invested in TrollTech back when Caldera went with Qt/KDE for their Caldera Linux product. That Caldera was under a different management than today’s SCO, and made some significant contributations to Linux.
2004-03-30 2:47 am
Anonymous
“It’s not that every Linux developer (GNOME, KDE etc) develops free software because he wants Linux desktop to win with Windows, no mater what desktop and apps it will ship. Many devs works on i.e. GNOME because they believe it is the right choice. ”
I think this individual said it best.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=101869&cid=8685144
2004-03-30 3:17 am
Anonymous
I am glad that Nat and Miguel finally spoke out. Heise, the oh-so respectd german IT publication, either knowingly or unknowingly allowed itself to be used in a rumor/speculation propaganda war-a power push from agroup of hackers within Novell against another group of hackers within Novell to force some big “decision”, which when the Novell execs, who are new to Linux and are prone to make such noobie mistakes, start thinking clearly again isn’t even a question.
The depths of ridiculousness which comments here and at slashdot have reached are mindboggling. People attacking Nat and Miguel, questioning their position, their right to speak as representatives of Novell…utterly assinine. The whole “QT is not free (enough)” stuff is also pretty braindead-if this were the case(already) KDE would not be so widely used.
Freedesktop.org is the organization which *is* the answer to the common desktop which Novell exec’s are looking for. KDE developers and GNOME developers are already working together on a variety of projects-this will only increase with time. There is far more consistency across the GNOME/KDE divide today than ever before- even SuSE used a cvs-patched version of KDE in 9.0 so that KDE and GNOME used the same .desktop files. Gstreamer is already being integrated into kdemultimedia, sodipodi is integrating optional KDE-dialogs, both KDE and GNOME have adopted DBUS-GNOME is going to use cairo for 2.8, KDE/QT won’t be far behind.
SuSE has a whole lot of expertise in kernel and XFree86 hacking-their enterprise offerings, based on cooperation with IBM makes SuSE from the server point of view invalualble. For many home users SuSE has been known as a good desktop distribution- but SuSE has not made any big splash on the desktop in the corporate world. Novell purchased SuSE primarily due to the SuSE-IBM connection and the quality of their programmers. In europe SuSE reigns uncontested as *the* Linux distribution-but yet again, moreso because of SuSE as a server than as a desktop-corporations are only now beginning to show an interest in the Linux desktop.
Ximian is all about the desktop and all about integrating/migrating Windows data, applications, users and developers into the Linux world. Why is it that none of computers at the brainshare conference were running KDE -but all of them were running ximian-patched GNOME ? Why is it that Ximian is an unknown name to those who work primarily in the server world?
Novell has made a brilliant decision purchasing both Ximian and SuSE. They, Novell, have great kernel hackers, xfree86 hackers, desktop specialists par excellance-the best in the Linux world and the developers of one of the most trusted names in enterprise server Linux in addition to great QT/KDE programmers.
Novell will itself onl be producing a very small set of software-perhaps in total in 5 years 1/2 of one of the 6 CD ‘s ditributed in the Novell/SuSE distribution. Even if at some point down the road Novell chose to use QT# for it’s development projects-who really cares ? QT# is dependendant upon MONO-and that is one of the key technologies which Ximian brings to the table. Novell is not going to single handely re-write the Linux desktop with QT-such is pure and utter nonsense-as if any singly company could do so-hello- Linux consists of thousands of programs written by 10’s of thousands of hackers from all over the globe.
For the near future the desktop applications released by Novell will be written in Mono + GTK#-this is already clear-the iFolders software is already being written in GTK# and it is not the only GTK# project being written right now, as we speak, at Novell. Once the QT# library get’s up to speed their will probably be some desktop apps written to use this new library-think integration with YAST-appending new modules to administer the OpenSever technology which Novell wants to integrate with their Novel/SuSE distribution.
If and when Novell’s customers start to want to build new applications based on the OpenServer technology QT# may be the prefered library of usage-the question about a common desktop environment is primarily of interest to companies, Novell’s customers, which wish to develop applications based on Novell’s Novell/SuSE Linux. Home users-“I like KDE better than GNOME” are NOT the targeted market here. Where QT/KDE provides a very thorough and rich API consisting of a highly modularized system which is consistent and easier to develop for than the less mature GNOME API-neither GNOME or KDE provide, at this point in time, system-level integration-ie. from hardware-kernel to kernel-userland to userland-desktop. KDE/QT is only integral from a desktop perspective-KDE/QT is irrelevant in terms of servers, much like GNOME is.
It is a shame that Novell/SuSE will continue to be based on RPM, and remain a binary distribution-this Gentoo user has sworn to never use SuSE again……
2004-03-30 3:22 am
Anonymous
@Bascule
I suppose “the owner of the CLI/C# patents” publicly stating this is not good enough for you.
So for now take this information and follow his advice:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg06554.htm…
@KDE/QT license
About the QT licensing issue (which affects KDE); I wish for a desktop system that is an “open plateform” in the following sense: ANYONE can write software for it and that software can be under *any* license. QT and KDE are completely encombered by the GPL. Forget proprietary licenses, you can’t even write a BSD licensed KDE program!
This is why I switched to GNOME originally and will never again use KDE.
Ironically, I’ve also grown to love the GNOME HIG.
After using GNOME with the HIG, the KDE interface feels absolutly terrible (and somehow dated, probably due to the lack of instant apply). Other than these two issues, I’ve long felt that the KDE project has been *technically* much better. Although slowly that is changing.
2004-03-30 3:30 am
Anonymous
You can write a BSD-licensed KDE program. The license doesn’t have to be GPL’ed, just GPL-compatible.
2004-03-30 3:40 am
Anonymous
You are so wrong on so many levels. QT and trolltech is SO wrong for business. Think about it. Novell bites some kind of bullet and chooses KDE/QT for “the desktop”. IBM rolls out their distro and it’s KDE based too.
Here we go. Some small Norweigian company is in charge of all desktops on linux. Listen, you have to get it through your head. QT with the current licensing is a non-starter for business desktops. It just is. Nobody is going to bet the future on some small european country running the middleware on linux. There is no way in hell that a properitary toolkit will be the basis of a standard linux desktop. Maybe in socialist world without closed-source apps that would work(even then i would be wary), but the rest of us capitalists aren’t buying.
2004-03-30 3:58 am
Anonymous
The fact that Qt is GPL prevents it from becoming monopolized by one particular company. It can never be taken away by Trolltech or anyone else. Qt is not “a properitary toolkit.” Its superior license allows one to choose whether or not to be proprietary or OS. For larger applications, sometimes developers are dissatisfied with the core libraries and want to modify them for compatibility or ease. Qt allows anyone to do this, the OSS community or the private company who wishes to keep its code secret.
And once the Qt file dialogs are improved to look more like the KDE ones (or even use them if they are detected), there will be no reason for companies to hold back their proprietary software. Qt development is rapid, cross-platform, and commercially sensible. Paying $1000 is peanuts for anyone entering the software biz. And the fact that Qt is also GPL’ed prevents any one company from excercising monopolistic control over it. The KDE/Cygwin project is the perfect testimony to that. Qt is not licensed under the GPL for the windows platform but already the Unix/X version of it has been ported to Cygwin and KDE will soon be a viable platform for use on Windows. All because Qt is GPLed. The dual license gives everyone the freedom to choose.
2004-03-30 4:06 am
Anonymous
so you mean they’re not going to help trolltech get a better grip on the wallets of those developing non-free linux software?
Udo: that’s an incredibly unhelpful comment, besides, the QtGTK suggestion is ridiculous…
2004-03-30 4:16 am
Anonymous
Listen, the Qt toolkit is better than Gtk+. That’s just fact. Gtk+ is great for a c-based api, but it’s slow(why the fuck won’t they fix that) and doesn’t have kickass developers working 10 hours a day, 7 days a weeks on it.
That said, I still stand by my comments. QT is a non-starter with a small norweigian company running the show. No matter how many times you try to justifiy the license(hey, I want trolltech to make money, lets have IBM buy them), there is no way in hell that KDE/QT will ever dominate the corporate or consumer desktop. That is fact. It’s encumbered. Shit, I can develop ms apps without visual studio. I can download the c/c++/c# sdk for free to my hearts content. No matter how many times the slashdweebs and Stalmanites try to convice people that closed-source is bad, people aren’t buying.
2004-03-30 4:23 am
Anonymous
Wow don’t get too excited I just want to know.
I can’t believe my post was modded, but I guess it is a little off-topic.
🙂
2004-03-30 4:25 am
Anonymous
VMWare 4.x
ldd /usr/lib/vmware/bin/vmware
libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x4002a000)
libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0x4002d000)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x4004f000)
libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x40117000)
libXi.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x40125000)
libgdk_pixbuf.so.2 => /usr/lib/libgdk_pixbuf.so.2 (0x4012d000)
libglib-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libglib-1.2.so.0 (0x40142000)
libgmodule-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgmodule-1.2.so.0 (0x40163000)
libgdk-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk-1.2.so.0 (0x40166000)
libgtk-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgtk-1.2.so.0 (0x4019a000)
libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x402b8000)
/lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
2004-03-30 4:26 am
Anonymous
I was just afraid that all the FUD about Qt was actually working. It must be the dozenth time I’ve fielded that particular gem, so excuse me if I got a little carried away
2004-03-30 4:41 am
2004-03-30 5:00 am
Anonymous
“Listen, the Qt toolkit is better than Gtk+. That’s just fact. Gtk+ is great for a c-based api, but it’s slow(why the fuck won’t they fix that) and doesn’t have kickass developers working 10 hours a day, 7 days a weeks on it. ”
Except for one thing that most Qt fanboys ignore: GTKmm is newer and much easier to program for new CS grads in since it uses the STL. Qt is obsolete in this regard. I remember almost gagging when I looked at Qt’s tutorials. Kdevelop is nice and everything, but Glade is excellent, too, if not quite as powerful.
I’d also like to point out that the Qt bindings to other languages absolutely suck compared to GTK’s. That’s a serious concern for CS folks who actually understand that C++ is not the end-all, be-all of languages.
Not too long ago (within a month ago), one of the Novell (former Ximian, in fact) folks came to our university and pimped SuSE. The only thing they could talk about was how great XD3 was going to be, and the nifty new features of Evolution. I find it VERY DIFFICULT to believe they are simply throwing away this technology because they want to standardize on one toolkit. There’s no rational reason to do so.
Far more likely, this means that the new stuff Novell writes will be in Qt, and that the Ximian crew will continue onwards in GTK+. In fact, no one’s discussed the fact that it would actually be far simpler to port Yast to GTK+ and ditch Qt entirely.
Or, look at it another way: the most important thing Novell acquired with Ximian was their programmers. Miguel _founded_ GNOME, and they’ve been huge supporters. Do you really think that Novell would throw that away because they wanted to standardize (for no apparent reason) on one toolkit?
I love this “Nat (who works at Novell) is wrong, and I (who do not) am so right” talk that’s being bandied about. Miguel and Nat are FAR more likely to be in the loop than any of the idiot fanboys who seem to frequent this place. The sheer amount of ignorance is mind-blowing.
-Erwos
2004-03-30 5:11 am
Anonymous
Except for one thing that most Qt fanboys ignore: GTKmm is newer and much easier to program for new CS grads in since it uses the STL.
If the new CS grads have trouble dealing with more than one concept at a time, they need to go back to school. Sometimes, different concepts are appropriate for different tasks, and this is one of those times.
I’d also like to point out that the Qt bindings to other languages absolutely suck compared to GTK’s.
Really? The PyQt bindings are excellent. Now, binding Qt to other languages is harder, but with libSMOKE, it becomes a whole lot easier.
That’s a serious concern for CS folks who actually understand that C++ is not the end-all, be-all of languages.
For GUIs, SmallTalk is as close as we’ve gotten to the be-all end-all of languages. Highly dynamic languages are ideal for GUIs. The Smalltalk influence in Objective C is why people fawn over Cocoa so much. Unlike the STL, Qt’s design is very dynamic, which makes it very nice to do GUI programming in.
2004-03-30 5:50 am
Anonymous
“Far more likely, this means that the new stuff Novell writes will be in Qt, and that the Ximian crew will continue onwards in GTK+. In fact, no one’s discussed the fact that it would actually be far simpler to port Yast to GTK+ and ditch Qt entirely. ”
I’m somewhat inclined to agree. But Novell will push to increase the integration between the GNOME and KDE libraries. Right now, the GNOMErs have dominated the freedesktop.org proceedings. I suspect that Novell will push for more KDE innovations. In the end, however, I do believe that GTK C programming will become a good deal less popular than it is today, through both Mono and GTKmm (which is still kludgey at this point imo) in addition to the draw of Qt.
In perhaps 2 years or less we’ll have a way of providing applications with a unified backend and that one’s choice of toolkit and language will mean nothing. And, I believe, it will be more consistent than in Windows where there are numerous widget sets floating around: Microsoft’s Office flavor of the moment, then its VS styles, plus the older Win32 and Win16, not to mention third-party ones like Borland’s, Qt’s, Mozilla’s, OOo’s…
2004-03-30 6:01 am
Anonymous
I love all the people trolling Nat and Miguel. Many people are acting like the two just don’t have a clue, etc. Are you really that dumb? I love the rips on Nat’s position too. He probably doesn’t know his position. Frankly it seems most jobs you have the flexibility to say whatever title you want.
Seriously this whole issue has been soooooo dumb. Since this issue came out one thing has been for sure, the zealots have come out of the wood work. Seriously if there is one thing I hate about the Mac community it’s all the really dumb zealots taht are completely unreasonable (I’m a mac user too). I’ve now seen that the Linux community has at least just as many.
Both environments have their good strengths so stop being one sided. I personally like the interface of Gnome more but I love some of the options that KDE offers. I really liked Nat’s comments. At this stage in the game it would be really dumb to just ditch one platform. The key, as he pointed out, is to unify the platforms better. I really hope this works out.
When this came out I was completely lost about it. I mean Evolution alone would merit this not taking place.
Also it cracks me up how paranoid people are about Mono. Are there some remote IP considerations. Sure, there is with any software! You think you would infringe on just as much if the open source community made their own .net? No Way! OTOH if Novell really steps behind Mono with full support then I think companies are covered since Mono will have the sufficient corporate backing that will protect it against IP issues. We’ll see what they do (but lets face it, they will support fully since they have already released some libraries for it).
2004-03-30 6:02 am
Anonymous
I meant to say the part about “he probably doesn’t know his position” in a sarcastic tone.
2004-03-30 7:59 am
Anonymous
@bohum: One last time. Even Richard Seibt and Chris Schlaeger (both coming from SUSE) are referring to Nat Friedman as Novells Linux Desktop Lead, I think they should know, don’t you agree? That’s just his official position, I don’t get what your problem with that is. That does not mean that he will be able to (or even want to) force all things QT out of SUSE or that SUSE will choose GTK+ as widget library for their development plattform, it is just a damn job description, nothing more, so get over it.
What I don’t get here is how much hatred there is between some KDE and GNOME followers. At least it was good to see (and hear) at Brainshare that the SUSE and Ximian developers seem to have a lot of respect for each other
2004-03-30 8:06 am
Anonymous
So Heise is making up storries to please their KDE fanboy readers. 95% of their readers are probably Windows users anyway and don”t care about KDE or GNOME. From the remaining 5% probably two or three percent are some sysadmins that do not care about KDE or GNOME either? And for the rest they make up some stories? And the same goes for the argument that some coders missinformed Heise because they want to influence the Novell management. Anyone seriously thinks that Novell executives (except maybe the SUSE ones which alredy like KDE anyways) are reading a German computermagazin??? And where did Miguel in his blog actually say the Heise article was wrong??? He just said that Novell today is using gtk for Evolution and gtk#/Mono for iFolder. The Heise article said nothing about what Novell is using today. Maybe the Heise article is wrong but most of the comments here concerning that article are just ridicolous.
I think, even though Novell will choose one default desktop, they will not spend a lot of money to improve that desktop. Why should they. Sun and RedHat invested a lot of money in GNOME and they probably both did not earn enough money. RedHat gave up on the Linux desktop for now and Sun probably did not sell that many Java Desktops either and now they are working on Looking Glass. How should Novell make a big amount of money with the Linux desktop if RedHat/Sun cannot? I guess Novell will do some embedded stuff, some server stuff, things like Red Carpet and maybe the Ximian connector and that”s it. There will not be a bunch of new free apps from Novell for the Linux desktop user, no matter if they support GNOME or KDE. And KDE proved that they can do without corporate support (or with minimal corporate support) and they will continue to do so. It is really not that important what Novell wants to do, I guess.
2004-03-30 8:40 am
Anonymous
the words “nonstarter” give me the impression that you are a business manager, in which case, quite frankly, your opinions are worth zip.
linux and the OSS operation systems and the multitude of software availlable, are being adopted at incredible rates right now because there is a lack of business in it.
why does the linux kernel + apache absolutely decimate IIS in every imagineable arena. Ill give you a hint what it isnt, money.
microsoft is a powerful corporation with incredible amounts of money, look at the result: that ugly tycco looking interface of XP. a system that needs dual cpus (at a clock of twice the speed currently available ) just to come close to the speed of a respectable machine with gnome + kde.
and guess what, the users dont care what the interface lookks like. as long as they dont have PROBLEMS with it, because then they have to call someone else up, (they are not fixing it themselves). this is the same debate of Swing, guess what, normal users barely even notice that its different. who cares, out of work VB developers. ( i am not ripping on .net, it provides some cool things). but just becauise the allmighty “look and feel” is different, it means ZERO to the end user.
they truley dont care, as long as it works. guess what doesnt work even adequetly. which system is slow, buggy, even with SP10. which features the most prominent security holes. and yes linux has thsoe too. but give me a break, microsoft has invented a new class of them.
2004-03-30 8:59 am
Anonymous
If Novell really are stupid enough to go with Gnome, and alienate existing SuSE users, it will be their downfall. Redhat gave up on the desktop using Gnome, SuSE flourished using KDE. Gnome loses out to KDE in popularity in every survey I’ve seen, not by a little, but by a long way. Most distro,s use KDE as default and they do it for a reason, its simply better (features, stability, looks, development rate) and the gap is growing every day. Stating that Gnome is better than KDE because KDE is too feature laden shows just how desperate they are to find a percieved advantage. Funny, but I’ve never heard a KDE user complain about this. So lets just sit back and see what Novell do. I believe they’ll continue to back winners, SuSE and KDE!
2004-03-30 10:05 am
Anonymous
first: many thanks to posters like Karl and Rafal, it’s nice to see that some people can still look at this and talk objective…
>> RedHat gave up on the Linux desktop using Gnome
sorry what? lol… easy ppl, easy… what exactly did RedHat do? they are now targeting companies with their commercial products which include the workstation so where exactly did RedHat give up on the desktop? needless to say, this desktop-oriented workstation product uses GNOME by default. the only thing they did was opening the devel-process of the private-user distribution, now known as Fedora. This was a great move, just imagine how much money they got from private users? nerly zero. don’t we all prefer downloading isos over paying $50 for a CD set? yes.
second statement you make, RedHat gave up on the Linux desktop “using Gnome”. as said before, RedHat still uses GNOME as their default desktop and look at the people they pay for working on GNOME! you will see that RedHat is far from giving up on GNOME…
>> and Sun probably did not sell that many Java Desktops
>> either
well, SUN != linux company. they have done some GNOME stuff but do you relly think they planned on using GNOME/Linux big-time only for 10 minutes during the last few years? this was / still is a test or option but what they really want to do ist JAVA stuff, look at LookingGlass / Glow… but don’t fear, they won’t survive very long doing this
2004-03-30 10:27 am
Anonymous
I don’t see any KDE logo on Novells home page. I guess that means Novell just luuuvs KDE.
Well you could argue that the SUSE logo appears before the Ximian one. But SUSE != KDE, and Ximian != GNOME but Novells home page clearly shows their interests here wether we like it or not.
2004-03-30 10:59 am
Anonymous
“I suspect that Novell will push for more KDE innovations. In the end, however, I do believe that GTK C programming will become a good deal less popular than it is today, through both Mono and GTKmm (which is still kludgey at this point imo) in addition to the draw of Qt.”
Prophet? 
“In perhaps 2 years or less we’ll have a way of providing applications with a unified backend and that one’s choice of toolkit and language will mean nothing.”
I won’t be counting on it.
“And, I believe, it will be more consistent than in Windows where there are numerous widget sets floating around: Microsoft’s Office flavor of the moment, then its VS styles, plus the older Win32 and Win16, not to mention third-party ones like Borland’s, Qt’s, Mozilla’s, OOo’s…”
It will never be consistent. There will always be someone who will write better toolkit, and some apps based on it.
2004-03-30 11:13 am
Anonymous
If Novell really are stupid enough to go with Gnome, and alienate existing SuSE users, it will be their downfall.”
SuSE user != KDE user.
Popular desktop is not aimed at KDE and GNOME funboys.
Rather normal people who don’t even know that there is such a thing like desktop environment.
“Redhat gave up on the desktop using Gnome”
No it didn’t. It even hired some people to work on GNOME.
I believe Daniel Veillard joined desktop team.
“SuSE flourished using KDE. Gnome loses out to KDE in popularity in every survey I’ve seen, not by a little, but by a long way. “
Maybe. Don’t know.
“Most distro,s use KDE as default and they do it for a reason, its simply better (features, stability, looks, development rate) and the gap is growing every day.”
Don’t know about all distros. But to be honest, Linux market is so small that those distros doesn’t really matter. And the biggest now (RedHat) ships GNOME.
” Stating that Gnome is better than KDE because KDE is too feature laden shows just how desperate they are to find a percieved advantage.”
Who is they?
“Funny, but I’ve never heard a KDE user complain about this.”
I heard many people saying so.
“So lets just sit back and see what Novell do. I believe they’ll continue to back winners, SuSE and KDE!”
Who win the game PHNOYFD*?
Who win the game PHNOYFD*?
Go, go PHNOYFD*.
Yay. 🙁
*Put Here Name Of Your Favourite Desktop
2004-03-30 11:59 am
Anonymous
Most of SUSEs users are probably KDE users. KDE is the default desktop on SUSE, yast is very well integrated into KDE, the instruction book delivered with SUSE uses KDE, I have no idea why you think SuSE user != KDE user. That might be true for a small fraction of them but for sure not for the majority of KDE users.
Red Hat definitely focuses on the server, not on the desktop, no matter if they hire some GNOME developpers or not. Why do you think there is Fedora? The big desktop distros are SUSE and Mandrake. Maybe there are others like Turbo Linux, but Red Hat is not.
2004-03-30 12:18 pm
Anonymous
You can also tell from the Novell GNOME bounties here http://www.gnome.org/bounties/ which desktop Novell is interested in.
The sing-posts are very clear even to those who choose to ignore it.
2004-03-30 12:22 pm
Anonymous
“Most of SUSEs users are probably KDE users. KDE is the default desktop on SUSE, yast is very well integrated into KDE, the instruction book delivered with SUSE uses KDE, I have no idea why you think SuSE user != KDE user. That might be true for a small fraction of them but for sure not for the majority of KDE users.”
Normal desktop users (not geeks) of SUSE use KDE but I don’t think they are aware of KDE or GNOME. They are KDE users but not supporters, even if they like it.
“Red Hat definitely focuses on the server, not on the desktop, no matter if they hire some GNOME developpers or not.”
Yeah, they waste money on developers to work on stuff,they don’t consider important for them.
“Why do you think there is Fedora? The big desktop distros are SUSE and Mandrake. Maybe there are others like Turbo Linux, but Red Hat is not.”
Creating Fedora means RedHat focuses on servers?
2004-03-30 12:35 pm
Anonymous
So lets just sit back and see what Novell do. I believe they’ll continue to back winners, SuSE and KDE!
Most of us *are* sitting back and seeing what Novell is “doing”. A year from now are you still going to be twiddling your thumbs, wondering what Novell “decides”? Lol, they’re making decisions as we speak. They might not be decisions one may like, but that doesn’t mean they are “non-existent” decisions.
2004-03-30 12:39 pm
Anonymous
My point was that KDE is winning on every front. They have a clear vision of where they want to go and they are doing it, fast! They are well organised under strong leadership. The Gnome camp is a rabble by comparison. Where would Gnome be if it weren’t for Eazel and Ximian? The result of all this is most users prefer KDE. Arguing about which is better technologically is the same as arguing Ford v GM or Coke v Pepsi. It’s irrelevant. The punters want what the punters want and they have spoken.
2004-03-30 12:41 pm
Anonymous
Normal desktop users (not geeks) of SUSE use KDE but I don’t think they are aware of KDE or GNOME. They are KDE users but not supporters, even if they like it.
I did not say that they are KDE supporters. But I am pretty sure they would not be happy if SUSE changes the default desktop to GNOME in their next release because usually people like what they are used to and usually people don’t want to invest time to learn something new especially if it offers no significant advantages.
ts to focus on the server market because that’s where they can make money. They need most
Creating Fedora means RedHat focuses on servers?
How would you interpret that? If they would be really interested in a desktop linux version, they would develop it themselves and sell it to their customers.
2004-03-30 1:09 pm
Anonymous
@geraldo
what users want is irrelevant. what customers (that is, PAYING customers, see the $$$?) want is relavant.
@Michael
>> But I am pretty sure they would not be happy if SUSE
>> changes the default desktop to GNOME in their next
>> release because usually people like what they are used
>> to and usually people don’t want to invest time to
>> learn something new especially if it offers no
>> significant advantages.
no significant advantages? why do you think did I change from KDE to GNOME? out of fun? KDE is a neat hacker-desktop but it is not user friendly at all. if mr power-user likes it: fine. but if i’m correct we were talking about normal users or better yet: windows users. i just can’t see windows users having much fun using KDE, they will be horribly frustrated because they won’t find what they are looking for. the market Novell targets is not the uber-l33t-poweruser market, it’s mostly companys changing from windows to linux so the users will most likly have no experience with linux at all. in this case, GNOME is so much better!
Open Enterprise Server? Well, there’s a new name for Novell’s flagship server OS. I hope it does them good. It could, seeing all the hype surrounding Linux.
And yet, I think most customers will chose the NetWare kernel. Or whatever they’ll call it (the kernel formerly known as NetWare kernel). My guess: 85% will go with the NW kernel, while 15% with the Linux kernel.
As a side note: If de Icaza is the spokesperson for Novell, I don’t believe anymore in that company.
Miguel and Nat continue to missrepresent themselves. Nat’s posting on Slashdot erroneously said that he was the lead executive for Novell’s desktop. Which can be shown to be factually incorrect by Novell’s very own website. Marcus Rex, as announced earlier, is the lead: http://www.novell.com/company/bios/mrex.html
Hell, have a look at the worldwide management team:
http://www.novell.com/company/bios/executive.html
I see several form SuSE executives who are still executives in the new Novell. Nat and Miguel are conspicuously absent.
As much of a technical nightmare converting the Gnome libraries and GTK applications to use Qt would be, I was hoping Novell would still be willing to undertake it, and that we could see the best of both Gnome and KDE merged into a single, unified environment built on top of Qt (and for the Mono obsessed, Qt#). Unfortunately it sounds as if this won’t be the case, and that everything Mono related will continue to use GTK#.
Sad to hear, I was hoping for some more desktop cohesiveness…
…desktop cohesiveness is there because they are planning on using Qt only for Yast.
chris
Building the next generation of Linux desktop around Mono seems like a terrible idea to me. Who’s to say exactly what parts of Mono are or aren’t covered by patents currently held by Microsoft?
If Mono goes forward and becomes an integral part of the Linux desktop, Microsoft is provided an excellent opportunity to sue Novell and potentially anyone who is using Mono, and perhaps will be awarded royalties for anyone using software covered by their patents. Think what a setback that would be for those using Linux on the desktop.
I agree with Miguel that implementing an enormous desktop environment entirely in C/C++ is a ridiculously difficult undertaking and something must change, but Mono seems like a route too dangerous to pursue from a legal standpoint…
As a side note: If de Icaza is the spokesperson for Novell, I don’t believe anymore in that company.
Why?
I don’t think this is sad to hear, Bascule (and basicly any other poster here or on heise, newsforge, slashdot…)
Ok ppl i won’t go into detail why GNOME is better than KDE or something like that, anyone is free to use whatever he/she likes better – so are you, so am i
The only questin i have: why is anyone so much discrediting the GNOME desktop/platform in general and most of all Miguel and Nat? It’s jus not fair. You don’t have to love them but you HAVE to respect them! Do you know what i mean? Neither Miguel nor Nat will poison your water, kill your first born son or something like that… KDE fanboys: grow up and get a life!
Hi
Its not about KDE. its about integrity. when people speak from good positions they should represent themselves correctly
Jess
The only questin i have: why is anyone so much discrediting the GNOME desktop/platform in general and most of all Miguel and Nat? It’s jus not fair. You don’t have to love them but you HAVE to respect them! Do you know what i mean? Neither Miguel nor Nat will poison your water, kill your first born son or something like that… KDE fanboys: grow up and get a life!
Amen.
This goes to all fanboys and fanatics. Don’t make /. here, please.
“You don’t have to love them but you HAVE to respect them!”
Respect the individual, or respect the position?
They’re not the same, and critisizing the latter doesn’t mean one’s denigrating the other.
Thanks God for Miguel and Nat’s reply, cleared a lot of questions.
.. to complile all important GTK-Apps like Gimp etc. and drop Gnome completely. That would be a wise decision. Lets face it: There are no important Gnomeapps.
Interesting to see what will come out of all this
One thing is for certain though, there must be ONE desktop environment / toolkit and ONE only if we want to see commercial software ported to linux. Yeah yeah, I already here many of you saying “why would we want commercial software to be ported to linux?” Well, maybe YOU don’t, but many do.
I still place my bet on GNUStep
It’s based on proven (NeXT, Apple (OSX)) design (OPENSTEP) and all it needs now is more developers. Since it already is quite compatible with OSX I would imagine it would be a lot easier for companies to port their software they have for OSX to GNUStep than to Gnome or KDE. If the GNUStep developers could just drop the politics and implement the missing OSX stuff it would be even better.
That would be a wise decision. Lets face it: There are no important Gnomeapps.
Don’t be a child.
Doesn’t make sense at all, because yast run also with ncurses, as far as I have seen it could very run easily with almost every toolkit.
let the saga continue , the question is does Miguel believe what he Say’s this days or it just his wishfull thinking
Doesn’t make sense at all
What doesn’t make sense?
This statement makes no sense at all:
The only use of Qt that am aware of today is SUSE’s recently open sourced YAST
First, I’m assuming he meant “…that I am aware of…”
And second… this statement completely ignores the existance of KDE, which is the desktop which has been historically utilized by virtually every SuSE user. I have no idea why Miguel would say something so blatently false, as I seriously doubt he isn’t aware of KDE or Novell’s plans for it…
Are you really donot understand what he meant ?
He spoked about internally developed software .
So if we cannot trust Miguel and still coontinue to have doubts , whose words should we listen?
itis starting to look like paranoia all this debate about
QT and Novell.
Maybe because they are focusing more on Ximian.
i believe they are currently integrating ximian desktop into suse 9.1. this may in the future affect which desktop is the default desktop in suse. i doubt it will change though, unless they port yast2 to gtk. (which i hope will happen)
Sorry, I really don’t like Qt for a variety of reasons and love Ximian’s work with Gnome/GTK/mono and didn’t want to see Novell taking that away. Hopefully it was just some overzealous KDE person.
I’m not trying to say that Gnome is better than KDE. I’m just saying that I like it better and so I’d hate to see Ximian (which produces some great Gnome stuff) go KDE/Qt.
No one takes Novell seriously anymore.
Did you ask everyone? 8-|
It’s bouncing a lot. One hour it’s GNOME, the next it’s KDE. Democracy at works. The latest
http://slashdot.org/articles/04/03/29/1553253.shtml?tid=126&tid=156…
Miguel and Nat are just talking too much. After Novell bought SUSE, they behaved like the would be in charge of Novells desktop development and claimed publicly that GNOME will become SUSEs default desktop environement.
I also have never read something where Miguel or Nat mention KDE. Just look at that blog. They claim that Yast is the only tool that uses Qt but they forget to mention that KDE also uses Qt which is Novells/SUSEs default desktop. Most of the KDE developpers have no problem at all mentioning GNOME and they actually have quite a lot of respect for GNOME developpers (please note that I said developpers and not users). I really don’t like their disrespect versus KDE at all. I think they behave like little kids here.
I respect Miguel and Nat as excellent coders, but I do not respect them otherwise at all. I guess if Linux Torvalds would behave like them, the Linux kernel would still be the hobby project it started as. But they are still young and they will hopefully learn to talk less about things they are not in charge of and they will hopefully learn to show respect to people even if they are not doing what they like.
Miguel and Nat are just talking too much. After Novell bought SUSE, they behaved like the would be in charge of Novells desktop development and claimed publicly that GNOME will become SUSEs default desktop environement.
Can you provide links to such declarations?
I also have never read something where Miguel or Nat mention KDE.
And till now, I haven’t seen a single GNOME desktop news here or in Slashdot w/o a KDE troll bringing fud about GNOME.
Again, Miguel was referring to internally developed projects. He was saying that Evo, Mono, F-Stop, and so on are going to be in GTK still. The only internally developed app using QT is Yast.
Are you really donot understand what he meant ?
He spoked about internally developed software .
It certainly sounds from these two articles as if Novell has quite a few plans regarding development work with Qt/KDE:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1553087,00.asp
http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/04/03/26/1934246.shtml
I trust what Nat and Miguel say, as representatives from Novell, more than one babelfish translated german site. I get the sense that Novell likes the work that SuSE is doing on the SERVER side, and that Ximian is going to be the way to go for them on the enterprise DESKTOP side. In any event, I am glad that Miguel and Nat cleared this up.
why… why can’t we just live together? i mean, we’ve got other things to fight (hello microsoft), let’s not end in that pointless discussion again.
whatever Novell does, whatever desktop they chose, whatever they call their products… let them do their thing! they won’t do things without a reason.
please wait for the next linux release form Novell (the one after SuSE 9.1 as we already know how 9.1 will look like), if you don’t like that because it doesn’t include either KDE or GNOME – change your distribution. pissing Novell off in the meantime won’t change things to the better, i guess.
and for all the “Novell-cant-drop-KDE-or-favor-GNOME-because-SuSE-has-always been-a-KDE-company” guys out there: they can! buying competitors to kill of their products is very common today, again, look at redmond. novell owns SuSE so it is their bloody right to do or make SuSE do what they want! but that wouldn’t be the end of KDE because KDE != SuSE.
I like the gnome desktop very much and many thanks go to Ximian for Evolution and their gnome efforts!
Without it linux wouldn’t even be a Microsoft alternative for office computers…
I also have never read something where Miguel or Nat mention KDE.
Why they should? They don’t care about it. It’s their right.
Just look at that blog. They claim that Yast is the only tool that uses Qt but they forget to mention that KDE also uses Qt which is Novells/SUSEs default desktop.
“The only use of Qt that am aware of today is SUSE’s recently open sourced YAST”
He is not aware. Me too. So? Does SUSE developers develop other stuff in Qt in their work hours?
Most of the KDE developpers have no problem at all mentioning GNOME and they actually have quite a lot of respect for GNOME developpers.
Some have, some don’t have. Same in GNOME camp (towards KDE). Don’t generalize.
I really don’t like their disrespect versus KDE at all. I think they behave like little kids here.
Disrespect. They didn’t say anything like that.
You just wrote: “I also have never read something where Miguel or Nat mention KDE.”
But they are still young and they will hopefully learn to talk less about things they are not in charge of and they will hopefully learn to show respect to people even if they are not doing what they like.
Where did you find disrespect?
I am from Germany and the heise is probaly Germany’s most respected publishing company in the computer sector. They produce magazines like c’t and iX which are aimed at professional users. I am pretty sure they do not make up some story without having any facts. I trust heise much more than I trust some people’s blogs.
And nothing Miguel says contradicts the heise article. The heise article says Novell has chosen Qt as their development platform of choice. The heise article did not say that they will rewrite Evolution using Qt or Mono using Qt. That would be stupid anyway. They were talking about future projects not current ones.
And actually it makes sense because Novell wants to do more embedded Linux development and for embedded Linux there are not many alternatives to qt-embedded (which is also the platform of choice for IBM in the embedded sector).
Furthermore, all GNOME based business desktops have not really been a big success. Red Hat more or less abandoned the Linux desktop and SUN is working on project Looking Glass. (Before someone mentiones it, I don’t think KDE is a big success on the business desktop either). I am pretty sure, Novell will not only concentrate on the Home/Business desktop, but also on the embedded market were they probably can earn much more money.
@Nx: obviously they can drop KDE on SUSE if they like, but it would be pretty stupid to buy a company for 200 Million dollars, do hire their developers which are used to work on KDE, to get all the SUSE customers that are used to work with KDE and then drop KDE support. I guess this is not really like business works even if some GNOME people would like that. And Mandrake would probably also like that a lot;-)
@Rafal: yes they have the right to not mention KDE at all. And I have the right to thing about them as arrogant, disrespectful, immature people, don’t I?
One thing is for certain though, there must be ONE desktop environment / toolkit and ONE only if we want to see commercial software ported to linux. Yeah yeah, I already here many of you saying “why would we want commercial software to be ported to linux?” Well, maybe YOU don’t, but many do.
You just don’t get it, do you? If some Tom, Dick, or Harry wanted to code a new DE, he could. Read my lips: There will never, ever, be only ONE DE on Linux. That’s the nature of the platform (neither good, nor bad). The solution is that Linux Distros need to grow up, and become more than a repackage of a bunch of software. If MDK only wants to use QT/KDE, they should only use QT/KDE! Stop providing Gnome, IceWM, and all the others.
Basically, stop thinking of Linux as a unified front. Its a bunch of independent developers.
@hohum: Even if I am quite sure, it won’t help to provide some real infos in this totally useless flamefest here, I’ll try anway…
Nat Friedman IS the Linux Desktop Lead, no discussion about that. Want some sources? I was at Brainshare (as a journalist) and have been told this fact during some interviews by three different Novell executives:
*) Chris Stone
*) Chris Schlaeger
*) Richard Seibt
None of them is from Ximian, as you might notice, so maybe that helps for credibility.
The official wording for the situation is: Nat Friedman is the Linux Desktop Lead and reports his results to Markus Rex, that’s it.
yes they have the right to not mention KDE at all. And I have the right to thing about them as arrogant, disrespectful, immature people, don’t I?
Yes, You have right to think anything You can, but it doesn’t mean You can write such stuff on public forums.
Especially that they didn’t write anything arrogant about KDE, I believe.
Not mentioning is not arrogant. And it doesn’t make them immature.
…Slashdweeb gets it wrong.
Nat is not part of the executive worldwide management team according to this:
http://www.novell.com/company/bios/executive.html
I can definately believe that Nat reports to Marcus Rex (a SuSE executive), but I don’t buy that he is the ‘desktop lead’ for SuSE’s desktop. I would buy that he is the ‘ximian desktop lead’, but that’s about it. Regardless, he is misrepresenting himself (as he did right after the SuSE purchase) by claiming title to the Novell desktop. He reports to SuSE executives as does Miguel.
Basically, stop thinking of Linux as a unified front. Its a bunch of independent developers.
And everyone has equal right to develop anything.
And every company can drop some products if they think it will be good for them. It’s their money and their bussines. Not any “Anonymous” poster’s. Such childish bashing is just silly. Same thing for i.e. UserLinux case. We are free to disagree with some choices but not to write bullshit about some persons.
is comming to suse 9.1 down their desktop update to unstable and you`ll have gnome 2.6
Building the next generation of Linux desktop around Mono seems like a terrible idea to me. Who’s to say exactly what parts of Mono are or aren’t covered by patents currently held by Microsoft?
We’ve already been through this many times before. ECMA 334 and 335(I believe those are the numbers) are RAND + Royalty free. Now of course nothing is certain in this world and Microsoft could might try something(doubtful considering all their legal troubles), Sun might die and who knows what happens with Java then(they’re a lot more desperate than Microsoft), you might get hit by a bus tommorrow…
I don’t think there are any near-term plans to make Gnome dependent on Mono or dependent on some java runtime. I’ve been lurking on the Gnome-desktop mailing list and there was a long thread about Havoc’s “Managed world” blog. As long as distros are distributing Mono(something they are wary to do with Sun’s java license) then that’s ok in my book. Of course, eventually I think it would be great if Gnome was shipped with Mono, but I don’t think it’s a big deal if they don’t.
I completely agree. I’m sick of the fanboys whining about “choice”. Nobody is going to take away your fluxbox, you’re favorite toolkit, or your ability to write raw Xlib code. Corporates and ISVs need one DE to target. I don’t care if it’s Gnome or KDE, but just decide already and get the resources behind it.
As far as GNUstep is concerned, who knows. I like Mono because as a developer I care about windows too. Even if I have to have two different gui front-ends(one for linux and one for windows).
First thanks suka for clearing this up! Naturally some people had to know better and insult Nat and Miguel… Oh this is getting sooo cheap, PLEASE show some respect even if you don’t like/agree with people.
@ Michael Thaler: I did never say I expect Novell to drop KDE. I would do it, yes, but that’s because I would have bought SuSE because of their kernel/system hackers and not because of KDE… Speaking of heise, being “Germany’s most respected publishing company in the computer sector” doesn’t mean they can’t fall for a joke – as they clearly have in the past
I am pretty sure they do not make up some story without having any facts. I trust heise much more than I trust some people’s blogs.
And I’m pretty sure the German press has it’s fair share of rabid SuSE users who’d force everyone into an ugly debate, by spreading lies, hoping that Novell might reconsider their plans.
Anyways, I keep hearing: SuSE doesn’t do this, SuSE didn’t do that….BUT what you knew as “SuSE Linux” is no more, for better or worse. This was a buyout of SuSE by Novell, not the other way around. So get it through your skulls.
To say Nat or Miguel don’t know what they’re talking about, but “you” do, or “Heise” does, is the most disgusting display of delusion I’ve seen yet on this subject. I’m trying hard not to be insulting, believe me, but I wish I could, as it might knock some sense into some of you.
SuSE is not KDE. It’s a solid distro even without a desktop. Don’t equate SuSE with KDE because it’s a lot more than that, you know? Novell did not pick SuSE for any reason but for a new enterprise strategy — They’ve got their own plans for “desktops” and API’s — Nobody spends 20 million on Ximian just so they can fart it all away. Think about it.
If all you want is KDE then you don’t need Novell to hold your hand, do you? Because that’s what all this bickering amounts to. “Like” if Novell didn’t support KDE as default, it’s not valid anymore — and that’s ridiculous. Grow up.
I have known Miguel for a number of years and did some legwork to have speak before the Spanish senate o the issue of free software (sofware libre for us).
He is one of the smartest guys I know, but I happen to disagree with him about the future direction that Linux should take.
Unfortunately, he is too personally invested in the outcome of the software he is developing to look at things objectively anymore.
My thoughts are that Mono or GTK# should never become central to the Linux desktop, at least not till the legal ground has been combed with a fine tooth comb,
a process that will take years.
If Miguel and Nat decided to exercise their leadership and set aside their egos, they would endorse KDE and Qt as the desktop and toolkit of choice, simply because they are far more advanced today than what Gnome offers.They could then
continue to hack at their favorite projects and develop Mono applications that would complement the KDE desktop. In fact, with a bit of effort the QT# bindings would
mature enough that we coudl all be working in sync.
Instead, we are at a terrible impasse, one from which we will not recover unless someone is willing to be a better man and do what’s right for the common good, even if it means letting your beloved project take a second seat. The
truth is that Gnome’s reason d’etre was to offer a GPL desktop before QT was GPLed.
Overall, I am deeply and profoundly concerned about the future Linux desktop.
Something is terribly amiss within the Gnome community when they come together with the KDE developers for the greater good. I used to think that the KDE folks were less fortunate than the Gnome ones because they did not have the same type of corporate (Sun, IBM) backing. Now I am not so sure. And here’s why.
Read Havoc’s entire blog and you will get a good panoramic picture of what’s going on, and the very real problem that a fork may be about to happen, but let me provide a small summary below:
http://log.ometer.com/
The Gnome community is deeply divided. Miguel made a leap forward and jumped into C# a couple of years ago. C# is a good technical language, but there are too many legal and business issues that make it unlikely to become the standard technology for Gnome Development.
In the meantime, Sun, rather than work with the evolution folks, is reimplementing a major part of the Gnome desktop in Java and its deploying substantial resources to it. See project Glow:
http://groupware.openoffice.org/glow/
Project Glow is Java-based which means that Debian, Red Hat and Mandrake and possibly more will not ship it as it introduces a system dependency for a fundamental building block on a proprietary piece of technology.
What’s worse is that Openoffice.org is integrating more Java into its core leading to a similar problem than the one outlined for Glow. Given that the Gnome community is already split 50/50 between Gnome Office (Abiword and
Gnumeric) and Openoffice, this just creates even more confusion and greatlydiminishes the changes of desktop success. Why?
Because ISVs that want to build on top of the office suite, do not know which one to choose and even if they choose one they do not know which development language to use to build on top of it.
In the meantime, tons of cool evolution features are on hold because they were developed using Mono and there is no consensus on whether Red Hat and other major Linux distributors want to take on the added legal risk.
Compare this to the KDE side of things. One main language C++, that despite the odds, has already proven its worth both in its breath and quality of applications. KDE 3.2 is to any objective observer a very impressive project.
People that want to develop in other languages can make use of the many bindings to these languages. They have one PIM suite, Kontact that is shaping up very nicely. And they have one Office suite that has gove from being a total joke to being an extremely fast, complete and integrated piece of software. They also have tons of very good apps, Kopete, K3b, JuK, apps that are aesthetically and programmatically consistent.
The point is that the Gnome community needs the kind of focus that KDE has and it seems to me that the commercial involvement may have introduced a whole set of very complex business/political/legal/technical issues.
Given all of the above, here’s my bold prediction. Unless some serious soul-searching takes place and people find the needed common ground, KDE will become the default in all business desktops in one to two years. Tons
of consistent apps with none of the political or legal issues surrounding Gnome right now.
If this is to happen, it would be better that, rather than this being the result of a bloodied victory that leaves behind a lot of bruised egos, that the Gnome developers sit down and think of ways to work together with the
KDE folks for the future. We really do not need two desktops.
This isn’t to say that I or anyone is dictating what should happen to Gnome. If there are those that want to continue to hack on Gnome, they can do so, but the real window of opportunity for LInux is now before the
release of Longhorn and the time to get our act together is now.It may very well be now or never.
Miguel, me escuchas? Nat are you listening?
And I’m pretty sure the GNOME legions have their fair share of rabid Ximian users who’d force everyone into an ugly debate, by spreading lies, hoping that Novell might reconsider their plans.
Anyways, I keep hearing: Ximian doesn’t do this, Ximian didn’t do that….BUT what you knew as “Ximian Desktop” is no more, for better or worse. This was a buyout of Ximian by Novell, not the other way around. So get it through your skulls.
To say respected news authorities don’t know what they’re talking about, but “you” do, or Nat and Miguel do, is the most disgusting display of delusion I’ve seen yet on this subject. I’m trying hard not to be insulting, believe me, but I wish I could, as it might knock some sense into some of you.
Ximian is not GNOME. It’s a defunct company now without a desktop. Don’t equate Ximian with GNOME because it was a lot more than that, you know? Novell did not pick Ximian for any reason but for some Open Source jawboning value and Mono — They’ve got their own plans for “desktops” and API’s — Nobody spends 200 million on SuSE just so they can fart it all away. Think about it.
If all you want is GNOME then you don’t need Novell to hold your hand, do you? Because that’s what all this bickering amounts to. “Like” if Novell didn’t support GNOME as default, it’s not valid anymore — and that’s ridiculous. Grow up.
I mean for christ sakes the desktop lead for Novell is a SuSE guy not a Ximian guy:
http://www.novell.com/company/bios/mrex.html
No Ximian guys are even among the executive management:
http://www.novell.com/company/bios/executive.html
Nat’s true title — according to Novell’s Brainshare website — is VP of Product Development Ximian.
http://tinyurl.com/23l6y
So you see, neither Miguel nor Nat are in any position to talk about the ‘official’ policy of Novell’s desktop strategy no matter how much they misrepresent themselves.
We’ve already been through this many times before. ECMA 334 and 335(I believe those are the numbers) are RAND + Royalty free.
Source please. Show me somewhere where Microsoft itself attests to this.
If Miguel and Nat decided to exercise their leadership and set aside their egos, they would endorse KDE and Qt as the desktop and toolkit of choice, simply because they are far more advanced today than what Gnome offers.They could then
continue to hack at their favorite projects and develop Mono applications that would complement the KDE desktop. In fact, with a bit of effort the QT# bindings would
mature enough that we coudl all be working in sync.
Well, since Gnome was Miguel’s baby I don’t think you’ll see him endorsing KDE/QT as The Desktop anytime soon.
Obviously, KDE/QT is a better framework from a developer’s perspective, but the problem still stands that the QT license is not business friendly and until QT is opened up like GTK+ then KDE will never be The Desktop. Obviously, the Trolltech guys have to make money that is why I wish IBM would buy them and just open up the damn thing.
Gtk# and Mono takes away many of the advantages that KDE/QT have. An easy development environment, good class libs, and easy ability to port to windows. Maybe there are some tricks up Microsoft’s sleeves, I don’t know, but they have stated that ECMA 335 and 336 are RAND + Royalty Free. So if in the case that Microsoft decided to get nasty on those apis that aren’t covered by the ECMA specs then Mono could just pull those APIs and still have a kick-ass core that something like Parrot won’t(if ever) have for many years. By the way, Java is no guarantee either. I’m sure Sun would love to have Java entrenched in Gnome in order to dictate a few things. They are in a desperate business situation unlike Microsoft.
My $0.02
Did I say SuSE is being farted away? Don’t put words in my mouth, dude. SuSE was not purchased because of it’s desktop and api technologies. I said SuSE is more than that, and valuable to Novell’s strategy, but it has nothing to do with desktops. Just because they don’t use KDE wouldn’t mean SuSE’s actual strengths aren’t being played upon. Can you actually disagree with that — Don’t you see I’m giving SuSE more credit here, or are you going to be a smartass again?
But to purchase Ximian, and somehow not play to _any_ of their strengths, is a much bigger loss than just dropping SuSE’s past inclusion of KDE. And to top it off and think that Nat and Miguel have little cred here is a fantasy. Even if I rate their credibility from 1-10, and give them a “1”, it’s still greater than “0”, which is what all sources outside Novell are, including you and Heise.
If Miguel and Nat decided to exercise their leadership and set aside their egos, they would endorse KDE and Qt as the desktop and toolkit of choice, simply because they are far more advanced today than what Gnome offers.
Many gnomers would disagree with you.
Some, because they like LGPL libraries, some because prefer GNOME’s HIG approach, and some simply because they think GNOME is far more advanced today than what KDE ffers.
Who is wright?
Instead, we are at a terrible impasse, one from which we will not recover unless someone is willing to be a better man and do what’s right for the common good, even if it means letting your beloved project take a second seat.
Maybe they are willing to be a better men and do what’s right, but using GNOME, in their view it is better.
The truth is that Gnome’s reason d’etre was to offer a GPL desktop before QT was GPLed.
So? Not matter anymore. Don’t forget that some likes LGPL libs.
Read Havoc’s entire blog and you will get a good panoramic picture of what’s going on, and the very real problem that a fork may be about to happen, but let me provide a small summary below: