Microsoft’s general manager of platform strategies describes plans to compete with Linux, including segmenting the market into small, medium and large businesses. Taylor also defends the security and innovation of the proprietary development process against open source critics.
Interview: Martin Taylor, Microsoft’s Manager for Platform Strategies
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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“TAYLOR: Security is one of those workloads where Linux is getting traction, partly because we don’t have a firewall appliance offering today. We have technologies, but we don’t have a lockdown, hardened firewall that we can put in.
Security is not a product, Mr. Taylor, it is a process.
RedHat AS w/support > Windows Server
I love that statement. AS is about $1500/year. Windows Server is about $1000 + $100/user + Support.
Why does MSFT always compare Linux + Support to just the base Windows product? They love to leave out that support is extra, and if you want it to handle more the 5 users at a time thats extra too.
OK, they try to sell their product; this doesn’t come completely unexpected to me. Of course he has to bend truth a little bit – after all, they offer inferior products at high prices – but it doesn’t seem too offending to me.
I have a family. I have two computers. I have XP home. I cannot share documents securely between two systems. This is functionallity that was in 98 etc and is now missing. It is a broken product. Who believes that home systems need not be secure?
Thanks
Security is an inherent function of code quality. Axiom one.
TAYLOR: Just because you have more people looking at the code does not guarantee a level of quality, because those people might not be the most-qualified people to do code review.
No, it just means that they may come at the code from vastly differing perspectives, and vastly differing problem-areas. Based on that, they’ll be looking at differing things, focusing on those primarily, and they may not have a clue about what they don’t care about, but what they do, they’ll get.
I’m not [making] a disparaging comment on the open-source community. I’m just simply saying that more in number does not mean it’s more in quality. Let’s just say that.
Brookes in “The Mythical Man-Month” makes much that same point. I need not say anything about Microsoft’s own employee numbers versus code quality, do I? Queueing theory would make that obvious – except that every working F/LOSS project I know of that’s making any progress, winds up structured like a surgical team, a la Brookes’ recommendation, with someone being the “benevolent dictator-head surgeon” of the team, and tasked and trusted with making the decisions.
That said, it’s something that we continue to look at to see at what level and how do we open it up and share.
I believe I have made some comments on this, Mr Taylor, on the subject of how Microsoft could get used to becoming a productive member of the F/LOSS community. If you are at all serious about this, you might like to consider releasing the majority of the Windows 9x, the Windows NT 3.x-4.x and Office 97 source code under the BSD/MIT license.
If not, well, your Shared Source Initiative leaves me cold.
They had a good run, I have to hand it to them. They made commodity hardware a reality. They put computing into millions of homes and small businesses. They pushed the limits of the law and in many ways helped define our attitudes towards intellectual property and software.
That said, they have clearly peaked and are now beginning what will likely be a multi-decade, AT&T-like descent into mediocrity. With only two meaningful products, Windows and Office, Microsoft is completely defined by the PC. While NT has taken a fair share of the server market, Microsoft never commanded the mindshare of the server room. As the PC era ends, as does the sun set on the Microsoft empire.
Linux and open source are only one problem, but they are a major problem. All things being equal, you can’t price effectively against free. Even if the major distros are not in fact free of charge, their pricing schemes are much much more accomodating than anything Microsoft can or will offer.
The failure of new initiatives is also a sign of the decline. XBox has never been and will never be a challenger to the dominance of Sony. MSN will never touch Yahoo.
Security has been another problem. Microsoft has yet to score one significant win in the regard and the public now treats their products as inherently flawed.
What they do have going for them is another decade of desktop dominance. In 2010 there will be a frightening number of PCs running Win98SE2, of that I have no doubt. They also have a mountain of cash. This means they have at least one more crack at totally reinventing themselves, like Nokia (former natural resources company turned telco king) or GE (former aerospace firm turned financial services powerhouse) have.
No, it just means that they may come at the code from vastly differing perspectives…
It means no such thing: There’s no evidence that there are more eyes viewing open source code at all. This is an unprovable assertion.
With only two meaningful products, Windows and Office, Microsoft is completely defined by the PC.
And so is Linux: It’s not being defined by anything but the PC.
While NT has taken a fair share of the server market, Microsoft never commanded the mindshare of the server room. As the PC era ends, as does the sun set on the Microsoft empire.Whatever. Mindshare is one of those buzzwords signifying little. NT/WIn2K boxes are still being deployed in greater numbers than Linux.
The failure of new initiatives is also a sign of the decline. XBox has never been and will never be a challenger to the dominance of Sony.
And how long has XBox been a challenger to Sony? Two years. Do you realize how much market share XBox has taken away from Sony in that time? How much better XBox’s online experience is than Sony’s? Didn’t think so.
MSN will never touch Yahoo.
MSN is posting a profit and shedding internal business units like clockwork. With Yahoo at a P/E of 119 on income of a mere 237.9 Mil, MSN doesn’t have far to climb.
With only two meaningful products, Windows and Office, Microsoft is completely defined by the PC.
And so is Linux: It’s not being defined by anything but the PC.
(Chuckles to self) – since when was the last time the IBM z900 series sold through mail order? Since when was the last time you could buy a massively-parallel supercomputer at your local department store? Since when was the last time an embedded controller – MC68000-based, of course, or StrongARM7xxx – defined as a PC?
Define your terms!
[quote]
TAYLOR: Just because you have more people looking at the code does not guarantee a level of quality, because those people might not be the most-qualified people to do code review.
[/quote]
And who does? MSFT?
Mr. Taylor, I guess you compare uncomparable. Win/Lin are two different things and processes. So far in its basic ‘suit’ it is free and that potentialy threatens your (MSFT) market position (though not significantly YET). Any other argumets are vain.
You know it all very well.
FACT: I patch MS Servers and Desktops every day due to security flaws
FACT: I use Sun Stars Office 7 to read all MS office documents,powerpoint and excle files. I ammend those documents and send them back to MS users who carry on working on them without even knowing that it hasnt touched a MS PC.
FACT: I never have to patch my Linux system
FACT: I have had virus after virus sent to me on a MS PC but NEVER on my linux PC
FACT: It DOES cost me less in real money and time to administrat my Linux systems.
FACT: I run adobe, cd burning software, scanning software, office products, games, Web and email on my Linux system just like most people do on a MS system.
Please draw your own conclusions
FACT: I patch MS Servers and Desktops every day due to security flaws
Everyday? come on…you must be a pretty crappy admin if your patching stuff everyday.
FACT: I use Sun Stars Office 7 to read all MS office documents,powerpoint and excle files. I ammend those documents and send them back to MS users who carry on working on them without even knowing that it hasnt touched a MS PC.
ok….but if you have a really complex word document thats not going to work very well….maybe it works for letters to your little bitch but in the corporate world they actually do complex stuff.
FACT: I never have to patch my Linux system
maybe so…but your updating the kernel all the time, messing with configuration files just to get a video card to work. Running windows update is real hard…….get a clue.
FACT: It DOES cost me less in real money and time to administrat my Linux systems.
lol….thats funny….my nephew who is 8 can admin a windows box on a small network.
FACT: I run adobe, cd burning software, scanning software, office products, games, Web and email on my Linux system just like most people do on a MS system.
This is always a good one….if your so anti-ms…why even use any of their products….you need to be hit in the head.
>No, it just means that they may come at the code from vastly differing perspectives, and vastly differing problem-areas. Based on that, they’ll be looking at differing things, focusing on those primarily, and they may not have a clue about what they don’t care about, but what they do, they’ll get.
Actually Microsoft have several engineers who are working on the same part of the code, they work on it, reread etc.
And I would trust more some good engineers working on code, than some blind linux zealots. IBM works changed this tho ( same from the work of other “big companies”. )
Look where is linux before :
Each years since at least the red had 4.2 it has been the “year” where linux will crush windows…Yet it never happenned.
And now…the quality of the system overall have much improved since these payed worker helped.
>Please draw your own conclusions
That you are a clueless person to think that your linux box is secure out of box, specially if it stays unpatched…And I won’t bother on other “fact”…
Home edition is not made to be networked. Try XP Pro…..
Funny that in the article this MS guy speaks of Windows Server being broken down into smaller segments…And that’s exactly what I don’t want from Windows. Like their desktops — “Home Edition”, “Professional Edition”, “Media Edition”, etc. — Or the idea of “Plus!” for example: There shouldn’t even be a “Plus!” — It just tells me something is “lacking”.
Neither MS or the user benefits from that. Users get gyped out of functionality, and MS leaves Windows open to criticism for lacking features. You’d think they’d want to impress people with “features”. Windows XP is OK, but it’d be a lot more impressive if there was “one” Windows Desktop OS that included a lot of what MS had to offer.
Just give users “Pro” with everything tacked on, and drop $200 on the price tag. Drop another $200 on Office and I’d say that’s progress. If they can’t even consider that, I’d say they’re dead.
I don’t think they have to be free or open source in order to compete in the future, but they need to be cheaper and throw out all of their old business models out the door.
“Reduced functionality”, “per user” server fees: It’s bullshit, that’s what will kill them. More and more people have caught on that Microsoft screws them out of their cash, that the software isn’t worth it, and the prices are totally unreasonable. By just going “Cheaper” with full functionality it’d be good enough to stay atop in the game.
As for the features, leave it up to the install process if people want to add or reduce functionality.
The only thing I can understand is separate “Workstation” and “Server” editions. But breaking those up into smaller and smaller segments, and charging people for every extra little feature or license is robbery.
[i]ok….but if you have a really complex word document thats not going to work very well….maybe it works for letters to your little bitch but in the corporate world they actually do complex stuff.[i]
mod, please keep this in. this guy is hilarious..haha
I work in a world where all the people who report to me use Linux every day. In the last two weeks, I have had 1 Word document and 1 spreadsheet sent to me that I had to return to them and make them redo it using Office because the results (printing or computation) were not acceptable. Looked OK to them on their machine, but the latest version of Office gave different results. Fortunately, these were internal documents, not things we send out to other companies.
It is possible for Linux code to be looked at by millions. It is not proveable that the code was looked over by anyone or that it was looked over in detail by someone quallified and who had the ability to force needed change. Microsoft, in getting their base OS product Evaluated at the Common Criteria level of EAL4, has signaled that they have instituted processes to assure that henceforth, all good development practices will be followed. Will it be perfect in a day, heck no. But they have begun the process and devoted significant resources to the task of improving security.
As for quality, I run only two desktops, one at work and one at home. Lots of applications, many third party, some shareware. Yes, I apply patches. I have not crashed either system since XP was installed (2 years ?). I haven’t lost a byte in years. No viruses either.
So I’m faced with using a reliable compatible platform that allows me to get my work done trivially and work with the hundreds of other companies I work with each month. It is a tool, not a religion.
Just give users “Pro” with everything tacked on, and drop $200 on the price tag
well…considering you can find XP Pro online for about $150 I’d say you have nothing to talk about….even most retail boxed linux distro are around $50 to $100 for a desktop distro.
mod, please keep this in. this guy is hilarious..haha
thanks…I love the support….some people just have to be told how it is. 🙂
In many cases, the docs you send are meant to be only read (and maybe printed), but not modified, by the receiver. Since StarOffice/OpenOffice make it really easy to create PDFs, this is a much better way to go than creating .doc or .xls files.
Anyway, even if you create word docs using MS Word, chances are that they look very different on the receivers computers. The version of word, the printer driver(!), the installed fonts etc. have an influence on how a word doc actually looks like. That said, I sometimes have to make files in MS-Office formats, using OpenOffice, and haven’t experienced a problem yet. Maybe it’s because I do not spend much time on complex formating.
In many cases, the docs you send are meant to be only read (and maybe printed), but not modified, by the receiver. Since StarOffice/OpenOffice make it really easy to create PDFs, this is a much better way to go than creating .doc or .xls files.
wow…so many rookies here….I would say documents are sent and reviewed and updated by many people in an organization before needed to be secured via a PDF file. Some time we have 60 page projects that are revised hundreds of time before being sent to a customer….so making a PDF would just piss everyone off.
Plus…why a PDF…granted it nice but then your just making another closed document format. I love Linux and openness but sometimes these people cease to amaze me. They only get pissed if it’s proprietary to MS.
Why does everyone ramble on about security and total cost of ownership all the time? Why does no one talk about freedom? You’ll never win with TCO and security because it’s all bulldust. Linux out of the box is not any more secure than windows, just read some of the security bulletins and you’ll see that it has just as many problems as windows. Total cost at the end of the day is all irrelevant to someone who has to pay anyone just to have a program installed or configured.
Freedom my friends, Freedom is the key, freedom as in not locked into someone elses way of doing something, not as in free beer!
Why do I have to have IE? Why do I have to have OE? Why do I need WMP? Why do I have to have Messenger, Netmeeting, wordpad, Paint? Why can’t I get rid of them? I hate them all with a passion. Why do I have to go through product activation? Why can’t I install my OS on my kids computer without buying another copy? Why can’t I transfer my OS from my old computer to my new computer? Why do I have to give someone the right to edit my files if they don’t like what I have? Why do I have to get a license to listen/watch music/video I paid for? Why do I have passport shoved in my face every ten seconds? Why do I have to pay a $500 tax to M$ to edit a document sent to me by my government? Why if I use another OS do I still have to have a copy of M$ to access my bank account? Why do I have to use IE to view some of my favourite websites? And the list goes on and on!
Freedom is what I want, I want to be able to use what “I” want, not what some monopolistic nerd thinks everyone should be using. I don’t want to have to buy windows to access my bank account because some idiot thinks everyone in the world is an M$ drone. Standards, we have open standards, I want to use software that follows the standards and keeps up with them and pushes them to the limit to improve them. I want to send a document to a colleague without fear they cannot read it, I want to visit a website that works in my chosen system without having to pay a tax to some greedy wanker to do so. When I buy music or a video, I want to be able to listen to it anywhere, on anything, at anytime. I’m not talking of having everything for free as in free beer because the world just can’t work that way yet, but god damn, I’m getting sick to death of jumping through hoops to do stuff just because some corporate wanker want’s to make another billion for crap!
—
Till
Ramblings indeed.
“FACT: I patch MS Servers and Desktops every day due to security flaws.”
FACT: MS doesn’t issue patches on a daily basis.
“FACT: I never have to patch my Linux system”
FACT: You should be patching your Linux system. There are patches issued for Linux too.
“FACT: I have had virus after virus sent to me on a MS PC but NEVER on my linux PC”
FACT: No one cares to write a virus that would infect at best a handful of systems, when they could write one that that has the potential to bring down millions.
There is also the possibilty that some of the more recent virii have been released by some more radical elements of the Linux communtiy. Myddoom.f in particular. Why would sppammers write a virus that deletes file from the target computer. This would only serve to get shut the system down or get it noticed and make render the system unusable as a mail relay.
“FACT: It DOES cost me less in real money and time to administrat my Linux systems.”
Ramblings indeed.
FACT: Time is real money. During the time you are administering your systems, you could be doing something else to earn real money.
The time spent to administer any system depends on what you are using that system for and how much you are using it. If you use your Windows desktops to play games it is going to take more time to manage them, as games tend to break desktops. If you are using a server for print and file, it isn’t going to take as much to administer that server.
Unless you have been keeping a daily log of your time on each system and for what purpose that time was spent, then comparing the time spent on maintaining a function and comparing that to the time spent actually using that functionality (probably some value should be assigned to that function too, eg. accounting vs. game play,) your assertion is at best a wild estimate.
My conclusion is that you, like most Linux zealots see things the way you want to, instead of the way they are.
well…considering you can find XP Pro online for about $150 I’d say you have nothing to talk about….even most retail boxed linux distro are around $50 to $100 for a desktop distro.
Yeah, but I can take that linux distro and install it on an unlimited amount of desktops or servers, whereas your $150 XP Pro license covers only a single desktop.
>> And so is Linux: It’s not being defined by anything but the PC.
so i guess we’ll ignore the fact that linux is washing over the embedded market like a wildfire, or that it is taking roost in supercomputing clusters, etc etc
sorry you are 100% wrong.
>> And how long has XBox been a challenger to Sony? Two years. Do you realize how much market share XBox has taken away from Sony in that time? How much better XBox’s online experience is than Sony’s? Didn’t think so.
XBox has not dented Sony’s market share and FURTHERMORE it is a LOSS for the MSFT balance sheet. face it, XBox is DOA.
>> MSN is posting a profit and shedding internal business units like clockwork.
Thats a slow clock. MSN survices because it is embedded into MS apps, that is all.
>FACT: I patch MS Servers and Desktops every day due to security flaws
>FACT: I never have to patch my Linux system
LOL, If that’s true then your MS servers are more secure than your linux ones.
http://www.linuxsecurity.com/advisories/
XBox has not dented Sony’s market share and FURTHERMORE it is a LOSS for the MSFT balance sheet. face it, XBox is DOA.
I think your crazy thinking XBOX is DOA…..first the games are like 100 times better the PS2, the hardware in an XBOX is like 100 time better then a PS2.
And it is a loss becuase the plan is to make money on the games and as most gammers know Microsoft Studios make some of the best games around.
Wow what a lot of talk. From reading the post I understand this. MS people really dont like Linux people and vice verse. Everyone has good cause to say that their system is better than the other system.
But really do we need a slanging match on a public forum???
As a user of MS at work and Home and a linux user at home I find it most amusing. Some tasks can only be done in linux/unix and other can only be done in MS. This whole chatter about who is best is really really funny, It’s bit like saying apples are much better than oranges – neither is. They just do similar and different things for the owner/user.
So everyone get a grip and play with your own toys and stop chucking them out of the pram. That way you really will show who is more mature.
Just for the record and I dont mind saying so I like Linux more than MS, but that a personal choice.
I thought the remark about “only 14-25 people” checking code into the Linux kernel a bit odd. Surely there are more names than that when I look at the changelog? Perhaps only a score or so do the actual BitKeeper work but they also submit patches for others as far as I understand the situation.
well…considering you can find XP Pro online for about $150 I’d say you have nothing to talk about
Price of XP Pro is $300. Anything $150 or less are OEM discounts. It’s something I’ve taken advantage of for years, so don’t tell me I “have nothing to talk about”. If you want to argue about it, try not to hide things.
….even most retail boxed linux distro are around $50 to $100 for a desktop distro.
No shit. That’s my point. Mac OS X is $130 as well. I’m not saying that subtracting $200 from Windows or Office is supposed to be some professional analysis or something, I’m saying PC OS’es shouldn’t cost anymore than the average – $100-$150 — especially when they don’t include shit.
And how do you find a way to use the term “retail” for Linux, and not apply it for Windows prices? — Instead you want to prove me wrong by the price of some oem web deal.
The retail price is $300 according to Microsoft.
Price of XP Pro is $300. Anything $150 or less are OEM discounts. It’s something I’ve taken advantage of for years, so don’t tell me I “have nothing to talk about”. If you want to argue about it, try not to hide things.
Don’t cry little one, we all understand that you may have been dropped many times as a baby. If you would have read my full post that states.
well…considering you can find XP Pro online for about $150 I’d say you have nothing to talk about
you would have seen that I said online. Most people could care less if its OEM or not, as long as they have a valid key….so you don’t have anything to talk about.
No shit. That’s my point. Mac OS X is $130 as well. I’m not saying that subtracting $200 from Windows or Office is supposed to be some professional analysis or something, I’m saying PC OS’es shouldn’t cost anymore than the average – $100-$150 — especially when they don’t include shit.
Its very obvious that you have issues with anger….you should get check out by a doctor. But why are you complaining…actually it sounds like your crying about a $150 OS…..they do include lots of things, if you think its too much don’t buy it….its that simple. I realize simple things are sometime hard for the simple minded.
And how do you find a way to use the term “retail” for Linux, and not apply it for Windows prices? — Instead you want to prove me wrong by the price of some OEM web deal.
The retail price is $300 according to Microsoft.
Again….must be from all the times your parents dropped you as a child. Can you download Windows online legally. I didn’t think so. That’s why I said Linux Retail like when you buy it at a store or an online dealer.
Let your anger subside and wake up.
WIthin your organization, at least within the groups that have to review and modify each others docs, you should eighter use the same software on all places or choose a file format that doesn’t suck. Having OpenOffice on some PCs and MS Office on other PCs, and exchanging .doc files means begging for trouble. But this is something your organization should be able to control.
If you send files outside, to business partners who might or might not use MS Office XP, or MS Office 2K, or MS Office 97, or OpenOffice, or WordPerfect, or StarOffice, or Softmaker Office, or Hancom Office, all of which may or may not be able to display your word files correctly, its much better to send PDFs.
Dude..Angry? Lmao. Yeah, OK. GRRR…
I’m being kind here: Stop being a noob. Then you’d realize it’s pretty *impossible* to deduce what a person’s emotions are on a BB. There isn’t enough info for you to know either way. Are you telling me that you haven’t learned this yet?
Now, whether I am in fact “angry” or not is totally irrelevant. Stop thinking Internet discussion requires people to sound like hippies, and then maybe you can move on and your points get through easier. All you’re doing is trying to appeal to readers’ emotional sides, by villianization — that’s assuming anger is even there.
It’s boring, man.
I’m saying $300. Retail. Which is the price set by Microsoft. Simple as that.
Why try to make this into any more than that? You’re the one who wants to flame. You attacked me in your first post for little reason, somewhat made a point, but now you go off into totally *irrelevant* accusations. And you act like I’m the one with the attitude problem. It’s a typical pattern in poor Internet argument, dude. How about rising above the bullshit?
If you want to flame, go right ahead, I have no problem with flaming — but don’t act like you’re shit doesn’t stink, by calling me a “child”. If you knew anything, it’s only children who’ve always use the “child” accusation.
Besides, the OEM prices are a loophole: They must sell a piece of “hardware” along with the OS. If not, it’s illegal. I’m just talking retail price — the loophole only exists because the price is unreasonable in the first place.
Thanks for calling me a child though, because I’m feeling old as dirt as of late =D