Foul language, abuse, and threats brought by angry Linux advocates could be giving a good operating system technology a bad name, says CMP’s LinuxPipeline. Perens advises against abuse as well.
Extremist Linux Advocates Doing More Harm Than Good
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
So these people that are wrong… yes well umm it’s hard for me to finish when you don’t either.
I have spotted an idiot so I am replying to his stupid lies.
Again, we have a shining example that pro-MS zealots can be as rude as even the worst of the pro-Linux ones. This particular one could not even grasp the simple concept that “war” can mean many things without going out of his way to insult me. In this case, it means that MS is on the offensive against Linux because it is a new kind of threat to its monopoly, one that it cannot buy out or “embrace and extend.”
I was going to counter this friendly poster point by point, but it’s late and it’s a lot faster to just report the multiple abuses of this web site comment submission terms that he’s commited.
What I will not do is stoop down to his level and call him an idiot. Because we Linux advocates are better than that.
About the memos during the anti-trust trials, just to show you that I’m not making things up:
http://www.businessweek.com/microsoft/updates/up81020b.htm
http://www.adamskleemeier.com/new_words.htm
That was me posting. I tried a different browser and the cookie wasn’t set on that one.
A few years back someone in the Linux community mentioned that Linux zelots need to be more refined. However the clame that Linux zelots hurt Linux is a bit of zelotry itself.
Amiga, BeOS and BSD stay alive by means of zelotry.
What would happen if suddenly everyone stopped talking about Linux?
Who talks about Linux? The Zelots. Who keeps Linux in the spotlite? The Zelots. What would happen of the Zelots would just shut up?
Linux? Whats that?
Again, we have a shining example that pro-MS zealots can be as rude as even the worst of the pro-Linux ones. This particular one could not even grasp the simple concept that “war” can mean many things without going out of his way to insult me. In this case, it means that MS is on the offensive against Linux because it is a new kind of threat to its monopoly, one that it cannot buy out or “embrace and extend.”
You don’t speak for (us) Linux advocates. I am also a Linux advocate, that’s exactly why I call you an idiot. Cause you pretend as if you represent us. You don’t represent anybody, what you say is your own words. It doesn’t mean anything for the Linux community. You speak for yourself. You are not a representative of Linux and users of Linux like me.
When you make up things against Microsoft I will call you an idiot, cause you deserve to be called an idiot. I don’t know any other word that can describe the situation better. You couldn’t even grasp the fact that I am not a pro-MS guy. That’s the same attack people use against Eugenia and I am pretty sure she is laughing at that stupidity. Just because you bullshit against Microsoft doesn’t mean that you become a reprensetative for us. You are attacking Linux users themselves who are simply trying to point out the problems in the software they use. You spread havoc for your own personal amusement. Cause it is free to bullshit and it makes you feel good about yourself. You are not fighting against an evil company, you are the evil yourself. We normal people are sick of you, cause you turn every useful comment into your stupid war against Microsoft. No serious contribution to open source, nothing useful for the community, just attack Microsoft and claim that you represent us.
You don’t speak for (us) Linux advocates. I am also a Linux advocate, that’s exactly why I call you an idiot. Cause you pretend as if you represent us. You don’t represent anybody, what you say is your own words. It doesn’t mean anything for the Linux community. You speak for yourself. You are not a representative of Linux and users of Linux like me.
When you make up things against Microsoft I will call you an idiot, cause you deserve to be called an idiot. I don’t know any other word that can describe the situation better. You couldn’t even grasp the fact that I am not a pro-MS guy. That’s the same attack people use against Eugenia and I am pretty sure she is laughing at that stupidity. Just because you bullshit against Microsoft doesn’t mean that you become a reprensetative for us. You are attacking Linux users themselves who are simply trying to point out the problems in the software they use. You spread havoc for your own personal amusement. Cause it is free to bullshit and it makes you feel good about yourself. You are not fighting against an evil company, you are the evil yourself. We normal people are sick of you, cause you turn every useful comment into your stupid war against Microsoft. No serious contribution to open source, nothing useful for the community, just attack Microsoft and claim that you represent us.
Wow. Either you are pulling our legs or you have a serious perception problem. This is so rediculous. Why don’t you attacke ChocolateCheesekace for his anti-Linux zealotry next? That would have about the same merit…
Actually I’d take that further and ask him why he didn’t explicitly say that the actions of the hacker were wrong, regardless of the target. By not doing so, he gives the impression that neither he nor the “community” are all that serious about controlling their behaviour, as long as the target is someone they hate.
“Well, it takes convincing. For example, I suggested to a person to use PhP + Phorum + FreeBSD instead of Windows + Sharepoint. His reaction, “oh, I don’t want to turn this into a religious arguement”. Now pray-tell, WHO bought bought up the issue of zealotry? it seems that Microsoft fanboys are the ONLY ones who slam down any suggestion of using something other than Windows or a non-Microsoft product.”
Well I for one have no problem with poeple suggesting alternatives. Bring them on. If there is an OS or application better than what I am using now, I want to know about it.
But please don’t tell me I need to use something because of the politics surrounding the software is superior to the politics surrounding my software is better. I don’t want to here how the “community leaders” are morally superior to Steve Balmer etal. This is a load. What has Steve Balmer doing funny dances have to do with the viability of WIndows? It has nothing to with what people need hardware and software for.
I am not speaking directly of you, CCC.
I fully realize that the silent majority of OSS software users (at least I hope they are the majority, I have no way of proving this) aren’t this wrapped up in the OS and apps, but there is definetly a vocal minority that is holding back a wider acceptance of OSS.
When I disaggree with you because I feel that the OS that I use is better for me than the OS that you use, please accept that for what it is, a preference based on what I feel is best for me and my clients.
Take your PhP + Phorum + FreeBSD example. I would like to know how long it takes to install and setup? If I already have more of a passing familairity with Windows Server 2003 and Sharepoint what is the advantage of using these other products? The initial cost isn’t as important to me as the time it will take me to learn something completely different than what I know. I have other things in my life competeing for my time. Family, aquiring new clients, and keeping up on the apps and the software that my clients use now.
I can’t use quasi religous reasons to present a product to my clients. The ecomomic and political reasons used here would get me kicked out of most places of business.
“At this point, any and all of the above, including someone from within the community, is as likely as each other to have perpetrated this [MyDoom Virus]”
Follow the money. It applies in every war that was ever fought. Once you do that, you can easily see which one is more “likely.”
“You mean to say: Microsoft’s war against Linux?”
It is not war to try and differintiate your product by claiming it is better than other companies products. Again I am going to ask you, show any documentation where some one from Microsoft claims there is a war between the “Linux Community” and Microsoft. Where is the leaked memo, brochure or anything from Microsoft that says this.
Until you can do this, this “war” is only in your imagination.
I think that if you feel you are part of the “Linux Community” and the “Linux Community” is locked in this good vs evil struggle with Microsoft, it makes you feel more important. I think it is as simple as that.
“Follow the money. It applies in every war that was ever fought. Once you do that, you can easily see which one is more “likely.””
As far as “war” goes see my post above. But I would like to ask are you ascertaning there is no money being made from Linux? Maybe we should only follow who is making the most money and accuse them. Is this what all this “war” is really about?
It is not war to try and differintiate your product by claiming it is better than other companies products.
How about claiming that it is “viral”, a “cancer” and “un-american”? Those sound like fighting words to me.
And again, if MS used strong war-like language against Netscape in the Browser Wars (yes, they were actually called that!), why would they refrain from using them in this context?
Yes, “war” is a strong word, but it’s also one whose meaning has evolved over the years. Merriam-Webster’s gives this as one of the definitions of the word “war”:
a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=war&x=14&y…
I would say that this arguably describes the struggle between MS and Linux. If you don’t like my figure of speech, fine. I don’t care much for your unfounded characterization of Linux advocates either.
I think that if you feel you are part of the “Linux Community” and the “Linux Community” is locked in this good vs evil struggle with Microsoft, it makes you feel more important.
Whatever you choose to think is your own business. Personally, I think using the terms “good” and “evil” to talk about OSes is pretty simplistic and immature. I don’t see it as a religious struggle, though it certainly has political ramifications. Basically, it is the struggle between a monopoly that crushes competition, stifles innovation and locks user in proprietary solutions, and a free OS developed by a community of enthusiasts and volunteers that promulgates open standards and interoperability.
And it does not make me feel “important” – although it does seem to be quite an emotional issue for you.
Interoperability…
as a Linux user: where is my data located?
Point at home folder, one click. There it is…
as a windows user: where is my data located?
Point at My Documents folder, one click. There’s some of it. Where’s my mailbox? Where’s my config files? etc.
“Where do you want to go today?”
“As far as “war” goes see my post above. But I would like to ask are you ascertaning there is no money being made from Linux?”
The war I’m talking about here is between the spammers and the rest of us. If you cannot see that, I’m sorry for you.
Otherwise, why would anyone put in all those backdoor access tools in a virus, and then DOSS the SCO group at the same time, except to create a diversion for the sycophant press to lap up?
This is ORGANIZED CRIME going on here. There is nothing ethical about what the spammers are doing; why would you *not* expect them to besmudge the reputation of anyone they choose that might be getting in their way?
Frankly, I’m getting real sick of corporate apologists, too. Who will benefit, in the long run, by developing email-privacy usurping tools but marketers?
Wake up. the coffee is burning. Stop trying to equalize people who are trying to help others with people who are trying to get their money!
“Personally, I think using the terms “good” and “evil” to talk about OSes is pretty simplistic and immature.”
That is my point. I am glad you agree.
“I don’t see it as a religious struggle, though it certainly has political ramifications. Basically, it is the struggle between a monopoly that crushes competition, stifles innovation and locks user in proprietary solutions, and a free OS developed by a community of enthusiasts and volunteers that promulgates open standards and interoperability.”
Using terms like “crush” makes you look like you are emotionally involved. I realize MS has used viral, cancer etc to describe OSS. Those terms were used to evoke a emotional response. I think it was stupid marketing tatics. They must have too, becasue I beleive they have ceased. It didn’t work, in fact it probably hurt more than helped. Which is exactly what this thread is about. Extremism is not helpful in promoting software.
One thing that you brought up though. How can I place Linux at a clients site, by telling him it is a “free OS developed by a community of enthusiasts and volunteers”. I’m sorry but s business that can’t afford to pay for thier own devlopment costs doesn’t want thier livelyhood dependant on a “community of enthusiasts and volunteers.”
sing terms like “crush” makes you look like you are emotionally involved.
This is the exact term Microsoft used in memos when talking about Netscape. You’re right, they don’t use that kind of language anymore because it got them in hot legal water – but that doesn’t mean that the intentions aren’t there anymore.
MS has never been known to be kind to its competition. I think that, based on their past actions, words such as “war”, “crush” and others are quite justified when talking about how MS competes. I don’t see how this makes me emotionally involved. Anyway, being emotionally involved is not per se a bad thing: look at Ballmer, can you honestly say that this man is not emotionally involved in the struggle between MS and Linux? In addition to that, we all use our own writing style, and that’s entirely legitimate. I mean, you use colorful and strong words all the time, and that’s your prerogative. I don’t see why people who oppose your point of view should have any less freedom in the language they use than you do.
One thing that you brought up though. How can I place Linux at a clients site, by telling him it is a “free OS developed by a community of enthusiasts and volunteers”. I’m sorry but s business that can’t afford to pay for thier own devlopment costs doesn’t want thier livelyhood dependant on a “community of enthusiasts and volunteers.”
That’s why this isn’t the sales pitch used by IBM and others when selling Linux. Instead, they focus on more business-friendly aspects of Linux, such as reduced costs, greater reliability, better performance and freedom from vendor lock-in. This is why Linux use is growing at an accelerated pace.
“Otherwise, why would anyone put in all those backdoor access tools in a virus, and then DOSS the SCO group at the same time, except to create a diversion for the sycophant press to lap up?”
Wow maybe so they can DOSS SCO again and again, or anybody else for that matter.
“This is ORGANIZED CRIME going on here.”
Prove it. If it does turn out to be someone in the “Linux Community” would it be fair to charge certain people under the RICO statutes?
“Who will benefit, in the long run, by developing email-privacy usurping tools but marketers?”
I totally agree with this. I don’t want to pay for email. I think alot more would be accomplished if the perps of some of these acts such as using other peoples computers for spamming, DoS attacks, defacing websites and what not, were sentenced to loooong prison sentences. Why should I pay with cash or privacy.
“Stop trying to equalize people who are trying to help others with people who are trying to get their money!”
Actually I have always been leary of people who want to help me out of the goodness of thier hearts. I find they usually have ulterior motives. I would rather pay someone for thier help. You no there is nothing wrong with money.
“they don’t use that kind of language anymore because it got them in hot legal water”
Wow I didn’t realize it was illegal to say you are going to crush your competition. I sounds juvenile, but illegal?
“…look at Ballmer, can you honestly say that this man is not emotionally involved in the struggle between MS and Linux?”
He is the CEO of MS even if he isn’t emotionally involved he better act like he is. He can be fired you know. Besides Steve Ballmers antic’s doesn’t justify anything.
“I don’t see why people who oppose your point of view should have any less freedom in the language they use than you do.”
They don’t but this thread is about what is harmful to Linux.
“Instead, they focus on more business-friendly aspects of Linux, such as reduced costs, greater reliability, better performance and freedom from vendor lock-in.”
IBM is merely using Linux and the free programmers that come with it to lock people into thier hardware. AS400’s aren’t exactly an open standard, are they?
For anyone who is over 40 this IBM (the promoter of choice and openess) vs. MS (the monoplistic enslaver of all computerdom) propaganda is surreal. It is like if the Who song went “Don’t get refooled again.”
“This is ORGANIZED CRIME going on here.”
Prove it.
Well, this is to be the opinion of most security experts now. Kapersky says that the virus was posted via a SPAM network known to peddle in counterfeit software. So it is fair to say that the virus has generally been traced to russian SPAM gangs. The SCO DDoS was just a diversion – and it looks like a lot of people took the bait, hook, line and sinker.
Now, prove that this isn’t in fact the truth.
If it does turn out to be someone in the “Linux Community” would it be fair to charge certain people under the RICO statutes?
And what if it turns out to be someone from the Windows community? It’s safe to say that the individuals responsible will be charged if found. And it is also safe to say that they are not part of the Linux community, because their values do not agree with those of the community and their malicious actions have damaged its reputation.
Wow I didn’t realize it was illegal to say you are going to crush your competition. I sounds juvenile, but illegal?
Please read up on the MS anti-trust trial. The words themselves weren’t illegal, but they helped prove that other allegations were true.
He is the CEO of MS even if he isn’t emotionally involved he better act like he is. He can be fired you know.
You missed my point. I was saying that being emotionally involved in itself is not a bad thing. Why don’t you stop looking for a fight and rather try to understand what others are saying to you? You sound more and more like the zealots you decry.
They don’t but this thread is about what is harmful to Linux.
The single thing that is the most harmful to Linux is MS’s FUD campaign. The language used by a handful of overeager Linux advocates is completely irrelevant.
IBM is merely using Linux and the free programmers that come with it to lock people into thier hardware.
Their a hardware vendor, what do you expect? The thing is, if someone wanted to switch hardware, they’d still be able to use the software they’ve bought or developed. And IBM doesn’t only sell AS400’s, you know – they also sell Intel-based servers. There is competition in hardware, while in software there is a monopoly (though competition is mounting against it). In other words, your argument is weak.
“The language used by a handful of overeager Linux advocates is completely irrelevant.”
This is just not true. I assure you that the reputation and image of Linux proponets and the image of Linux itself as some sort of OS out to change the ecomomic fabric of the software business, is hurting it. This image not coming from MS either.
You can deny this all you want, but that just means you don’t see it that way.
I assure you that the reputation and image of Linux proponets and the image of Linux itself as some sort of OS out to change the ecomomic fabric of the software business, is hurting it.
That’s why it’s not pitched this way to business customers. Personally, I’ve never heard of actual cases where a real business chose not to use Linux because of the vocal nature of some of its proponents. Not one verifiable case.
Businessmen are pragmatic: they’ll look at what affects them, and ignore the fluff. They see that Linux can save them money, they’ll go for it, no matter what the politics of RMS and the FSF are.
In fact, if one is to believe the age-old marketing saying: “no publicity is bad publicity.” As it happens, I’ve read more about Linux in the mainstream local press over the past week than during all of last year. At least four people who know that I’m a Linux user have come to talk to me about it and I was able to enlighten them about what FL/OSS is, what the SCO suit is about, why SCO will fail and why Linux will continue to grow. I gave two of them a PCLinuxOS cd and one of them really liked it. He won’t be switching yet, but he’s considering installing Linux on his current PC when he buys a new one this summer.
I’ve never seen any kind of proof to support “linux zealots hurt linux deployment” argument, and thus I figure it’s more of a myth than reality. If you have proof to the contrary (no unverifyable or isolated incidents, please) then I’d be happy to look at it.
This image not coming from MS either.
Re: “cancer”, “viral”, “un-american”… Also, Rob Enderle is as close to a paid MS shill as you can get.
You can deny this all you want, but that just means you don’t see it that way.
Uh, sure. I don’t see it that way. And you see it that way. I think that’s kind of obvious. But as I said, I’ve yet to see any proof that this is true.
I work as a lead designer for a developer that produces games for the major game consoles: Xbox, PS2, Gamecube and GameBoy Advance. Yes, Xbox. 🙂
We use some Linux in-house, mostly for the build and compilation processes, but most of our shop runs Windows (with Cygwin). We are starting to use OpenOffice.org, though.
I expect Linux use to increase once we start working on PS3 stuff (sometimes next year).
“Seriously, now, do you think MS puts out press releases with that kind of language? Of course they don’t”
Indeed not afaik. Although some goes directly, a lot has gone indirectly years ago. For example the Halloween documents: http://opensource.org/halloween/
TYT, and enjoy!
“Actually I have always been leary of people who want to help me out of the goodness of thier hearts. I find they usually have ulterior motives. I would rather pay someone for thier help. You no there is nothing wrong with money.”
I assume “no” was an abbreviation to save time, I hope?
I feel sorry for you then. The only “ulterior motive” free-software developers have is gratification from their peers’ approval or praise. But aside from that, there *are* a lot of people in the world who *do* help people because they have good hearts, and for no other reason. It feels good to give something to someone, too, especially if it’s helpful or makes that person happy.
This e-mail abuse that’s going on right now is happening because there are also people who *take advantage of others* for helping out that way. They are only doing it because e-mail is free, and because they can get away with it, and because they don’t have to pay a dime to abuse millions upon millions of people in exchange for their little body of successful sales, or their few-thousand defrauding acts.
It comes down to this. Those of us who *do* want to help others, out of the desire to do good, are going to find these abusive fools, and we are going to help them grow up. And people like you, who seem to favor the view that one of us did this to SCO out of anger, are not helping the situation at all. You know we are right that this perp was not part of our community, or decided to sell his soul for some reason, and you know it damn well.
“One thing that you brought up though. How can I place Linux at a clients site, by telling him it is a “free OS developed by a community of enthusiasts and volunteers”. I’m sorry but s business that can’t afford to pay for thier own devlopment costs doesn’t want thier livelyhood dependant on a “community of enthusiasts and volunteers.””
Depends on what they want. If they want support they’re better of with ie. another Linux-based OS which does give them support, or 3rd party support; if they hire someone to admin the box who is knowledgable and autonomous, they do not by default need official support. Now, that wasn’t hard, was it?
Apparantly you have other experiences than i do for i’ve installed and setted up Debian GNU/Linux for several companies in the past. The arguments “rock stable”, “easy to administrator”, and “free (beer)”, “highly customizable” really strike, you know.
Mythical Russian spam gangs and other tin-foil hat conspircacy theories aside, the whole point of my post was to point out that it was asinine for Perens or anyone else to apportion blame for this when all the facts are not known.
Until they are, you have to acknowledge that it is as likely that it was a member of the OSS community as it was spammers, SCO, MS or even my grandmother. No more likely, no less likely, just equally likely. Burying your head in the sand and offering lame theories to try and rationalise away that possibility just makes the community look weak and not very serious.
Or look at it this way. At least MS has offered a reward for information leading to the conviction of those responsible, even though it was only peripherally affected. What has the OSS community offered, when by its own pleadings it has suffered greater harm?
“Mythical Russian spam gangs and other tin-foil hat conspircacy theories aside, the whole point of my post was to point out that it was asinine for Perens or anyone else to apportion blame for this when all the facts are not known.
Until they are, you have to acknowledge that it is as likely that it was a member of the OSS community as it was spammers, SCO, MS or even my grandmother. No more likely, no less likely, just equally likely. Burying your head in the sand and offering lame theories to try and rationalise away that possibility just makes the community look weak and not very serious.”
No it is not more likely that your grandmother did it. We do have some information and we do have logic. From this we can come to some conclusions.
“Or look at it this way. At least MS has offered a reward for information leading to the conviction of those responsible, even though it was only peripherally affected. What has the OSS community offered, when by its own pleadings it has suffered greater harm?”
Silly silly goose. Don’t be block headed. There are so many things wrong w/ that assurtion. In fact, you are pointing the finger at members of the OSS community. Whatever happened to waiting until we have the information huh?
Then again. You knew all this already didn’t you?
Mythical Russian spam gangs and other tin-foil hat conspircacy theories aside
Kaspersky has traced the virus to Russian ISP which are used by known spammers. I tend to trust Security experts more than I do pro-MS posters on OSNews, for some reason…
So, yes, it is much more likely that Russian organized crime is responsible for the virus than the OSS community.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,85438…
The virus also installs a trojan which gives backdoor access to hackers. This could be used for a variety of criminal purposes. This isn’t some kind of conspiracy theory: this is happening.
The criminals behind this are not part of the OSS community, even if they happen to use Linux or FreeBSD – not anymore than they’re part of the “Proprietary Software” community if they happen to use Microsoft products (which they must at some point, if only for testing purposes, since this is a Windows virus).
They represent in no way the values of the OSS community, and their actions have harmed the community. Therefore, they are not part of this community because the community, by and large, rejects them. You can’t “force” yourself to be part of a community that rejects you.
At least MS has offered a reward for information leading to the conviction of those responsible, even though it was only peripherally affected. What has the OSS community offered, when by its own pleadings it has suffered greater harm?
Actually, as we speak there are quite a few members of the OSS community who have analyzed the virus and are actively trying to trace back to its originator. Wouldn’t it be ironic if it was a member of the OSS community who ended up claimig the reward?
No it is not more likely that your grandmother did it.
You don’t know my grandma. She can get pretty fired up.
We do have some information and we do have logic.
Such as?
Silly silly goose. Don’t be block headed.
Not that the community is abusive or anything.
There are so many things wrong w/ that assurtion.
What “assurtion” did I make again? I merely posed the sort of question the reasonable person on the street might ask ie what has the OSS community done to help find and convict the perpetrators?
In fact, you are pointing the finger at members of the OSS community.
No more than I’m pointing the finger at anyone else. Please re-read my posts.
Whatever happened to waiting until we have the information huh?
Then again. You knew all this already didn’t you?
While you’re re-reading my posts, please find the spots where I said I knew who was responsible.
“No more than I’m pointing the finger at anyone else. Please re-read my posts.”
Really? well what was that last paragraph about exactly?
“While you’re re-reading my posts, please find the spots where I said I knew who was responsible.”
I was trying to give you some credit here.. but I guess you just don’t get it.
Please read that whole article.
“But there is a still a 20 per cent chance that this was an attempt to mislead. Virus programmers from other countries could have registered an email address in Russia and transmitted their harmful programs via it.”
Strange too that Kaspersky has neglected to mention this link on their own website. Stranger too that no-one else has found this to be credible. Methinks Kasperky is just fishing.
You can be a member of a community, holding all of its values and morals, and still break the law, and feel that it’s justified because it furthers the interest of your community. People do it every day, in real and virtual communities. It just seems strange to me that people can’t or won’t acknowledge this, preferring to believe that all is sweetness and light in the OSS world.
Actually, as we speak there are quite a few members of the OSS community who have analyzed the virus and are actively trying to trace back to its originator. Wouldn’t it be ironic if it was a member of the OSS community who ended up claimig the reward?
That would be fine with me. My point is that energies should be focussed on catching these people. We can apportion blame later. And like Allanis Morrissette, I think you need to go back to the dictionary and look up the meaning of the word irony
“You don’t know my grandma. She can get pretty fired up.”
Don’t try to hide your ill logic with silly remarks.
“Strange too that Kaspersky has neglected to mention this link on their own website. Stranger too that no-one else has found this to be credible. Methinks Kasperky is just fishing.”
Me thinks you have fallen off your boat. TheAustralian happens to find this to be credible. If you wish to argue any of the actual stated facts in the article.. I implore you to.
Things have gotten better than they have been. When I first tried Linux in the mid-90s, at the behest of a boss who wanted to see how Linux and Samba could replace an NT4 server, I ran into the problem of finding drivers for the HP RAID adapter card (We wanted to see if it would do RAID 50, like our production NT4 servers did). Not finding any and having HP tell us that there were no plans to support Linux at the time, I appealed to the USEnet groups for help. I got flamed for the next 3 months, to “read the RTFM!”, for being a “clueless, moronic idiot’, and for “perpetuating FUD as a paid Microshaft shill”. It got so bad, our company kept getting random email bombings for over a year. For me (and my boss), that did it. If we were going to get that kind of response, just for asking for help in writing a device driver, no way were we going to let Linux touch any of our hardware. Apparently, we weren’t good enough for the Linux community at the time, because we couldn’t write device drivers for non supported hardware off the top of our heads (hey, we’ were syatem administratorys, not system programmers!). So, any thought of any kind of meaningful Linux testing got flushed, and as far as I know, this company won’t touch Linux, even if it is free in multiple senses of the word.
Fast forward to current day, things are much better, but stil not totally friendly yet. I had lots of good help in building a Debian box to test on some old Compaq servers and invaluable help in configuring Samba 3. But theI run into Linux zealots (some consultants and internal employees) who insist that Linux is the best solution from PDAs to running our PeopleSoft ERP system. And I ask “When did PeopleSoft run on Linux? What distribution do they recommend?”, and they say “PeopleSoft said they will run on Linux”. “When?” “Real Soon Now” I said, “Fine, call me when they announce it” “But we gotta migrate NOW! Windows will be dead soon!” “Call me when they pubish the obituary!” I had to fire 3 guys a few months ago, when they, without any authoriziation, were attempting to move our accounts receivable database off a new Win2003 server running SQL Server 2000, to a Red Hat 9 server running Samba 2.2.8 and MySQL. They thought they could do it in a weekend and have it running without management’s knowledge of what they had done. We caught them Monday Morning, still trying to get the OBDC connections to the database working. Fortunately, they did wait until the full backup the accounts receiveable database finished before starting.
There was no reason for them to attempt this. The Win2003 server was running just fine, and everyone was pleased by the speed and reliability of it all.
My point is, that while the community as a whole has gotten much better, it had a long ways to go in the beginning and there are still zealots out there who are totally convinced they are right and will go to any lengths to prove it.
I’ll take that all with a grain of salt.
I had to fire 3 guys a few months ago, when they, without any authoriziation, were attempting to move our accounts receivable database off a new Win2003 server running SQL Server 2000, to a Red Hat 9 server running Samba 2.2.8 and MySQL. They thought they could do it in a weekend and have it running without management’s knowledge of what they had done. We caught them Monday Morning, still trying to get the OBDC connections to the database working.
LOL. I guess that is “Free as in fired.”
But seriously, guerilla Linux installations like that go a long way towards validating the perception that Linux is viral.
I’m sure if you e-mailed the mods they would explain it to you.
“But seriously, guerilla Linux installations like that go a long way towards validating the perception that Linux is viral.”
When people say viral they are referring to the license.
Really? well what was that last paragraph about exactly?
Which one. Neither of my “last” paragraphs prior to you wading in contained any assertion of fact that the community was responsible. Don’t go building any more straw men.
I was trying to give you some credit here.. but I guess you just don’t get it.
No your were trying for a cheap shot. You missed.
Don’t try to hide your ill logic with silly remarks.
It was faceatious, but not illogical or silly. You don’t know anything more about my grandmother than you do about any of the other perpetrators, so it’s entirely possible that she did do it. That’s my whole point.
TheAustralian happens to find this to be credible.
The Australian (and any other newspaper) finds a lot of things credible. Doesn’t make them true
If you wish to argue any of the actual stated facts in the article.. I implore you to.
There aren’t any facts, just suppositions on the Part of Kaspersky, and even these are tempered by the acknowledgement that it’s possibly that it wasn’t Russian spammers.
If you continue to read more into my statements than they actually contain, please keep it to yourself. I’m tired of repeating myself.
You obviously don’t understand the concepts of logic and reason If you think your grandmother could have done it. If you think that there is no such thing as probability. We do have some information and it’s up to you to prove it wrong.
You asked “Or look at it this way. At least MS has offered a reward for information leading to the conviction of those responsible, even though it was only peripherally affected. What has the OSS community offered, when by its own pleadings it has suffered greater harm?”
You are implying that they are dishonest and are not suffering from this but actually gaining.
“There aren’t any facts, just suppositions on the Part of Kaspersky, and even these are tempered by the acknowledgement that it’s possibly that it wasn’t Russian spammers.”
Anything is possible.. It’s silly to make an argument out of that.
“No your were trying for a cheap shot. You missed.”
No I found you comments to be so silly that I thought all of them to be fake. But I guess I can’t give you that now.
You obviously don’t understand the concepts of logic and reason If you think your grandmother could have done it.
Let’s talk about logic and reason here. Did I say that I thought my grandmother was responsible? Did I ever give that impression anywhere? On the other hand, what do you know about my grandmother that allows you to rule her out as a possibility? I’m not asking you to believe she did it, just to allow the possibility that she might have, based on what limited information you have.
We do have some information and it’s up to you to prove it wrong.
What information. And what do I have to prove? I’m not making specific allegations against anyone or group, I’m just saying consider all the possibilities. I’ve made this abundantly clear by now.
You are implying that they are dishonest and are not suffering from this but actually gaining.
Not at all. I’m saying that the perception is that the community doesn’t appear to be serious on this issue, given the statements by Perens and others.
Anything is possible.. It’s silly to make an argument out of that.
Not any more silly than to ignore all the possibilities in favour of the one that puts you in the best light.
Now I’ll leave it to you to have the last word, as frankly, I’m tired of arguing with you about things I didn’t say. Bye bye.
“…it is as likely that it was a member of the OSS community as it was spammers, SCO, MS or even my grandmother. No more likely, no less likely…”
For crying out loud!!! I know that I’m ignoring my own rule of not arguing with you anymore, but this is too moronic to let pass.
Here is my quote in full.
“Until they are, you have to acknowledge that it is as likely that it was a member of the OSS community as it was spammers, SCO, MS or even my grandmother. No more likely, no less likely, just equally likely.”
Where does it say that I believe that she did it?
I think you’re the one who’s being silly and fake here if you selectively quote me out of context to prove that I made a statement that I clearly didn’t.
Now, my grandmother is way off topic here. If you want to debate the original article fine, otherwise shut up.
Please read that whole article.
I did. The 20% chance that it was not from Russia does not mean that OSS people were responsible. Anyway, 80% is good enough for me.
Stranger too that no-one else has found this to be credible.
Care to give some sources?
Methinks Kasperky is just fishing.
Well, you’re welcome to think what you want. That still doesn’t mean the Linux community has anything to do with it.
You can be a member of a community, holding all of its values and morals, and still break the law, and feel that it’s justified because it furthers the interest of your community.
Indeed. But in fact I was not talking about breaking the law at all. In this case, the worm writers do not share the values and morals of the community, and they are not furthering its interest. In fact, they are hurting the community. Therefore, they cannot be part of this community, because their actions place them at odds with the community’s values, morals and well-being.
Only an idiot would believe that such acts of cyber-vandalism would help Linux in any way – and it’s clear from the skill involved in writing these worms that we are not dealing with idiots at all. No, these people know what they are doing, and the DDoS attack on SCO is just a diversion, a way to throw investigators off-track. Meanwhile, these criminals have about a million zombie machines at their disposal to send even more spam (in addition to harvesting credit card numbers and other personal info).
My point is that energies should be focussed on catching these people. We can apportion blame later.
Good, then perhaps we can stop insinuating that the OSS community is to blame and follow the leads we currently have! 🙂
And like Allanis Morrissette, I think you need to go back to the dictionary and look up the meaning of the word irony
Actually, in this context the meaning is quite correct:
“3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result”
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irony&x=0&…
Since many people (even recently the BBC’s website) have linked the worm writers to the OSS community, one who believes that there is a link would not normally expect that the culprits would be hunted down and caught by members of the OSS community. Therefore, if this happened, it would indeed be ironic as those first accused of being behind the attack would turn out to be those who catch the criminals who are really responsible. Hence, irony.
Yeah, but who cares what you are saying. At the end what did you do for the open source other than bitching about Microsoft on the web? You are not going to change anything for us. People who contribute something are the ones we are going to take seriously and my 2 cents on the issue is to divide people based on idiots and non-idiots. Some call it as zealots also. This way we can get rid of these people who are nothing more than an average joe with an access to the Internet and really focus on the issues. This is also called the S-effect in some cases. When discussing issues related with programming, interfaces etc… we don’t have to listen to 15-16 year old kids or people who have a similar mindset to come in and tell us how much they hate about Microsoft and that anybody who doesn’t tell nice things about Linux is a Microsoft employee. We should unite against these guys, definitely as the article points out you guys are a danger to the open source.
here are the things he was going to say about Linux.
Actually, those are all pretty much the opposite of what I would say.
– Linux guys are communist.
I wouldn’t call IBM communists. I think business Linux users are first and foremost pragmatist. As for the rest, well, they’re quite a varied bunch.
By the say, I’m kind of a socialist myself, so I’m not sure why I would “slur” Linux users by calling them communists!
– Open source software guys are illegally attacking web sites.
Uh, no. If you had actually read what I wrote in this thread, you’d see I was pointing the finger at the Russian mob.
– Open source guys are anti-Microsoft.
Well, I’m pretty sure that a good portion of Linux and Open Source people dislike Microsoft, because Microsoft clearly considers Linux as its number one threat. A lot of open source people (it’s not only guys, Sam) are indeed anti-Microsoft. To claim the contrary is to border on delusion. Of course, that’s not the case for everyone (Roberto Donhert is a good example of a pro-Microsoft Open Source guy).
– Open source guys are threating the software companies.
That’s not how I would put it. The Open Source model threatens some companies, such as Microsoft. Other companies, however, are quite happy to jump on the OSS bandwagon.
– Open source is not legal.
Of course it is legal. There’s nothing wrong, from a legal point of view, about releasing your software under the GPL, the BSD license, or any other license that opens up your source.
Why would I claim otherwise? You’re not making any sense.
– Open source steals code.
Uh, no. I think you should read some of the things I wrote on the SCO trial – it’s pretty clear that I think that SCO is full of it and that they will lose big time. I don’t think there’s any stolen code in Linux, and if there was then the sensible thing would be to say what it was so that the alleged infringement would stop.
– Open source is insecure, because any hacker can contribute code to it.
That’s simply not true. More people can see the code, and therefore see the bugs. Fixing bugs makes it more secure.
– Open source costs more, because it has a higher training costs etc…
Again, I would not say this, because even though a Unix/Linux administrator may cost more, he can handle more machines.
So basically, you’re completely wrong about my feelings regarding Linux. You have no idea what you’re talking about. None.
I still think you’re a pro-MS guy who sees my rethoric as threatening, and therefore has decided to make personal attacks about me and confuse others about where I stand.
Why don’t we divide people as idiots and non-idiots.
You know, you should really expand your vocabulary a bit beyond the word “idiot”. I mean, English is not my first language but even I know that such a repetition of a word is bad form. I suggest you buy a thesaurus.
Clearly this guy doesn’t like Ximan’s founder, cause that guy praises Microsoft for its help to Mono.
Of course MS will help with mono, it furthers use of .NET. Do you see the same level of cooperation to the Samba project?
And I have absolutely nothing against Miguel de Icaza. Ximian makes a great desktop and other software (even though I use KDE).
Clearly A nun, he moos has no intention of helping open source software in anyway.
Right, this is why I do beta tests, buy distros and give money to OSS projects. One thing I don’t do, though, is personal attacks. Perhaps you should think about refraining as well.
Along the way he also attacks other Linux users and pro-Linux people.
You’re the one attacking a Linux user and pro-Linux people here. I’m a pro-Linux advocate and Linux user, and yet you keep making personal attacks against me. Please stop, it’s annoying.
We should definitely treat him as an idiot.
Actually, as Rudo pointed out, the only one making himself look like an idiot here is you. You lost all credibility in your very first post when you resorted to personal attacks instead of engaging in intelligent debate, you have either misunderstood or blatantly misrepresented my views on Open-Source, and you cling on to the strange notion that Microsoft is “just fine” with Linux and Open Source, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Add to that your poor writing style, and you’re the one looking like a 15 year-old.
I think you should apologize.
People that have been threatened write plain lies in front of
great number of other people, over and over again,
and some among the audience are extreme.
The same thing would happen if they have written lies in
similar manner on any other subject. They should expect it,
and be prepared to deal with it.
It seems to me that writing and distributing viruses is a pretty dumb way for a spammers to go about their “business”. After all, your exposure to criminal and civil prosecution is greater, it’s a lot slower to distribute and its going to reach fewer people.
bsd and linux communities are no better than each other, although freebsd and openbsd tends to have more “settled” legal issues. they’re attitude is “we’re better than you, linux, so hah” I think the only major thing that hurt linux communities was the mydoom virus. I mean, linux people ranting on about stuff is common and the bad attention attracts more users (its kinda like how when george bush was criticised for having a DWI he got more popular) It’s like doing things to get notice to sell things. Anyway, I think its attracting more users but I don’t like the extremist stuff… The myDoom virus which SCO links to disgruntled linux users can cause some real big damage. Attacks on SCO’s website can also cause damage. IBM is just riding the lightning opening to cut software development costs and be a fav. of linux extremist. They are no better than most.
No point in being “holier than the pope”: Linux is not just an OS – as isn’t MacOS – but for some people also a way of life. The professionalism and the community spirit of the Linux crowd can stir up passionate reactions when attacked by creeps like Enderle. The bottom line is that Mr. Enderle is a troll and on top of it badly raised. Some people tried to exchange messages and even reason with him only to be treated as dirt.
Had he posted his articles in a newsgroup he would’ve been flamed until only a heap of carbonized dust was left of him.
When he chose to use the mainstream information channels to spit his incompetent poison he has angered more than one. On a newsgroup everybody is equal, in mainstream news media the readers are not. This can provoke very angry reactions.
I still would take this zealotry stuff with a big grain of salt. There’re weirdo’s out there and on the Net there’re even more of them, but knowing who’s hiding behind a mail address is difficult: Foul language from a teenage kid who’s using Linux and hiding behind the anonymity of Internet doesn’t weigh as much to me as a mail from an elderly person using the same foul language…
Zoran.
And why would he be flamed to a crisp? Because the Linux community cannot tolerate even the slightest hint of negativity. Yes it is a possibility that a disgruntled Linux user, or group of disgruntled Linux users wrote this to get attempt to get revenge, and this what he discussed. The article even mentions that there is no proof yet, but that is a possibility.
THIS IS COMPLETELY TRUE!
Get over your self.
It seems to me that writing and distributing viruses is a pretty dumb way for a spammers to go about their “business”. After all, your exposure to criminal and civil prosecution is greater, it’s a lot slower to distribute and its going to reach fewer people.
Actually, we’re not speaking about a normal virus, but a worm, and this one has spread at an extremely rapid pace. The worm installs a backdoor access in an infected system, so that the spammers can use the computer as a relay, or “remailer”, to send spam. Remailers are important to spammers because they can use them to obfuscate their tracks, and therefore make themselves harder to track down.
And why would he be flamed to a crisp? Because the Linux community cannot tolerate even the slightest hint of negativity.
Actually, since we’re talking about newsgroups, the Linux community is hardly the only one that can’t tolerate negativity: Windows users and Mac users are just as bad, and so are PS2 fans, Xbox owners, people who like disco, Christians, etc.
It often seems that the main function of newsgroups (now that porn sites are commonplace) is to provide a place for people to vent and rant, often using bad language. In fact, the flame wars on Linux or Windows or Mac groups aren’t so bad when you compare them to those on political on religious newsgroups.
Yes it is a possibility that a disgruntled Linux user, or group of disgruntled Linux users wrote this to get attempt to get revenge, and this what he discussed.
How exactly would that get them “revenge”? SCO doesn’t care much about their web site being taken off the web, since it gives them the opportunity to look like a victim. We’ve already established that the worm writer(s) are quite intelligent, this being one of the most quickly-acting and cunning virus of recent times.
There’s no way anyone who would think about it for a minute would come to the conclusion that such an action would actually help Linux and hurt SCO. In fact, it would hurt Linux and help SCO. This is why it doesn’t make sense to imagine that does who wrote the worm would be pro-Linux. Rather, it seems as if they either deliberately wanted to hurt Linux by making it a scapegoat, or just wanted to throw investigators on a false lead.
The article even mentions that there is no proof yet, but that is a possibility.
THIS IS COMPLETELY TRUE!
Yes, it is a possibility, but not a probable one. As I’ve mentioned, such an act could not possibly hurt SCO and help Linux. In any case, anyone following the SCO/IBM lawsuit knows that they have only a remote chance of winning – their case is weak and IBM’s is strong. Thus there is little incentive for revenge as of yet.
Again, the only party possibly gaining anything from this is SCO, as they can once again look like a victim in the media and draw attention away from the fact that they basically have no case and that no one is buying into their SCOSource initiative.
You’ve got to look beyond appearances. In such matters things are rarely what they first appear to be…
If you check out the answers of A nun, he moos you will see that it comes from a person who has an IQ level of a 15-18 years old. It is not low, but it is definitely not at a level where you are going to take it seriously. Web is full of these, and I think they just cause serious guys not to comment on the public forums like these. Who is going to seriously discuss with these guys? They are not even capable of understanding your points, they are talking nonsense all the time. That’s why I propose attacking these guys as idiots, so that we can at least expose their real IQ level and bring in more serious talk. Otherwise the web is not going to be much useful for the good quality discussions. Clearly these people have no intention to contribute anything to the open source. All they say and repeat is bitching about Microsoft, making up stories. Why should we have to listen to them. Linux doesn’t belong to them. I use Linux, I have been using it more than most of these bashers. Making up stories against Microsoft should be considered to be stupid and those who do that should be openely declared as idiots. We shouldn’t be discussing these stupid stories. Look at the number of posts on the serious news. Only posts like these get so many number of posts, mostly because anybody can post on this issue, can bitch about Microsoft, make up stories, talk as if they are authority on the Microsoft and Linux issue. Look at the KDE related posts, nothing is exciting going there, cause most of the idiots do not know much about KDE to post there.
For your information, most IQ tests I’ve taken indicate that I’m in the 135-150 range (“normal” IQ tests being notoriously imprecise in this range). Just the fact that I have better English writing skills than you while my first language is French should tell you little bit about our respective mental abilities.
I’ve noticed that you spend more time on personal attacks than on actually trying to make reasonable arguments. That reveals quite a lot as to your real intentions: personal attacks rather than intelligent debate. I’ve also noticed that you are no longer addressing me directly, which reinforces the notion that you’re scared to engage me in serious debate (something you seem incapable of, anyway).
And I still don’t believe you’re a real Linux user. The great majority of Linux users I know are intelligent, amicable and reasonable fellows. None of these epithets apply to you.
I think anybody who reads our comments will quickly understand that this Linux idiots are definitely quite dangerous. As you see he not only declares me a pro-MS MS employee but he also declares that I am not a Linux user.
Just to point it out to the reader, I am not only a user of Linux but also a developer for it. As you see these idiots have nothing to do but to discuss their Microsoft conspiracy theories with other Linux users and claim that they are not Linux user.
Another issue with these idiots are that, they expect us to discuss with them their arguments about Microsoft having a secret lab planning to bomb the Linux developers. Yeah, I can not argue against that “fact” as this guy points out.
Anyway, I don’t think there is much value to discuss Linux advocacy with idiots. The point is that, we should stop these people from harming other Linux users, having a really good conversation about the technologies, programming stuff, user interface issues in Linux etc… If we can eliminate these people as Linux traitors rather than Linux “advocates”, I believe we can contribute much better to the Linux, cause these people don’t know much about Linux anyway. You make a good point, they are going to post hundrends of stupid MS basher pointless posts against you. They will discuss your language etc… I say we don’t need these people for Linux, they are parasites. They just use the Linux name to attack others. What they don’t realize is that most of the serious Linux developers do not give a shit about what they are talking about. They enjoy the show and they know for a fact that they are safe from these idiots. But other less-known Linux developers and users can not get into useful conversations because of these people. We should definitely kick their but out. We don’t need these people even as users.
Just to point it out to the reader, I am not only a user of Linux but also a developer for it.
Really? What project have you worked on? What language do you program in?
Funny, I’ve corresponded with quite a few developers, and I subscribe to a few beta-testing mailing lists, and I’ve never heard one of them defend Microsoft as you do. If you want to be a successful impostor, you’ve got to learn how to talk the talk!
Another issue with these idiots are that, they expect us to discuss with them their arguments about Microsoft having a secret lab planning to bomb the Linux developers.
Uh, you’re the one who mentioned bombing. All I said is that MS set up a test lab to “pick apart” Linux and try to understand it. The reason they’re trying to understand it is that they’re afraid of it, and want to know how to better fight it. Unless you’ve been living under a rock (or are just spreading disinformation), you’ll have noticed the increase in ads by Microsoft pointing out that their solutions are better than Linux, citing research papers they themselves have financed. There is an offensive going on for the hearts and minds of IT professionals; just because you can’t recognize it doesn’t mean it’s not there – then again, you are probably a (covert) part of that offensive, so of course you wouldn’t aknowledge it.
Anyway, I don’t think there is much value to discuss Linux advocacy with idiots.
That’s exactly what I was telling myself.
The point is that, we should stop these people from harming other Linux users, having a really good conversation about the technologies, programming stuff, user interface issues in Linux etc…
Please read the title of the article: “Extremist Linux Advocates Doing More Harm Than Good”. These discussions are right on topice. Meanwhile, I’ve checked out a few other comments sections and I haven’t seen much of your postings there…if you don’t want to discuss Linux advocacy, why do you keep posting in this section?
Oh, and you can talk directly to me, since no one else is reading anymore. The thread has gone “under the radar” – meaning it’s off of the front page – and there’s probably no one left but me to appreciate your awkward “I’m a Linux user and developer, no really” imposture.
Now, I’m wondering: it is because you really believe that Linux advocates are all maniacs that, as you try to imitate one, you use such violent expressions in your personal attacks against me? Or is it a deliberate effort to portray us pro-OSS people as extremists? I mean, look at some of the words you use:
…If we can eliminate these people as Linux traitors…I say we don’t need these people for Linux, they are parasites…We should definitely kick their but [sic] out. We don’t need these people even as users.
Brave words, coming from an Internet troll. Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? For starters, who’s “we”? I have yet to hear a single Linux user agreeing with you (and, as I said, I don’t think there’s anybody left in this thread, so you’re just wasting electrons). Since you’re not really a Linux user nor developer but rather an impostor, are you in fact talking to other impostors?
They will discuss your language etc…
Well, at least I didn’t call you an idiot, what, 20 times? I didn’t say that you had the IQ level of a 15-18 year-old – which, in fact, doesn’t even make sense, as you can be 15 and have an IQ of 200.
Thank you, A nun, he moos. I think I made my point already. You don’t have to try it harder to prove my point.
I urge other Linux users to act against these people. We certainly do not have to accept stupid people acting in our own name. You want to be useful for Linux, just stop idiots from attacking other Linux users. Linux people need open forums. We don’t have companies to discuss more important issues. Remember these people didn’t do much for Linux, whatever they did for Linux do not grant them the right to attack others. Open source is built by thousands of people and hundrends of thousands of hours of work. We have to protect open forums from idiots, stop them from trolling.
A nun, he moos, I am not talking to you, cause I don’t see any reason to talk to you. I don’t know your age, you definitely do not deserve any serious respect. The internet boards are the last place to discuss the important issues, thanks to idiots claiming that Microsoft is building a secret lab to bomb the earth and want other people to discuss their claim with them. This is what this topic is about.
Thank you, A nun, he moos. I think I made my point already. You don’t have to try it harder to prove my point.
Actually, I’ve provided counter-arguments to your baseless allegations and attacks. You have not once responded to these counter-claims, so I’ll take that as an admission of defeat.
You have also failed to indicate what you’ve contributed to open-source, nor have you given anyone any reason to believe that you’re really a Linux user. So I’m still calling your imposture: you are not really a Linux user.
I urge other Linux users to act against these people.
No one’s left in this thread but you and me, boy. And I know you’re a fake.
We certainly do not have to accept stupid people acting in our own name.
Whose name is that? The Linux impostors’?
You want to be useful for Linux, just stop idiots from attacking other Linux users. Linux people need open forums.
An open forum means having people state opinions with which you do not agree – otherwise it’s not open. And if you think that most Linux users share your views on Microsoft, think again. But of course, since you’re not a real Linux user, that’s kind of irrelevant.
We don’t have companies to discuss more important issues. Remember these people didn’t do much for Linux, whatever they did for Linux do not grant them the right to attack others.
You’re the only one here who’s stooped down to making personal attacks. All insults, no substance. And I’ve done more for Linux than you ever will, and I’ll continue to claim this until you’ve proven me wrong.
Open source is built by thousands of people and hundrends of thousands of hours of work. We have to protect open forums from idiots, stop them from trolling.
I don’t agree: we Linux users should allow idiots like you to troll open forums because a) freedom of speech applies to idiots as well and b) inept Linux impostors like you are good for comic relief.
A nun, he moos, I am not talking to you, cause I don’t see any reason to talk to you.
Translation: I’m not talking to you because I can’t counter your arguments, so I’d rather talk to an imaginary audience, all other posters having left for more recent threads.
I don’t know your age,
I’m 34. How old are you?
you definitely do not deserve any serious respect.
Well, at least I try to engage people in debate, not start insulting them while trying to pose as someone I’m not.
The internet boards are the last place to discuss the important issues,
Look at the subject of this thread, please.
thanks to idiots claiming that Microsoft is building a secret lab to bomb the earth
You’re delusional. I’ve never claimed anything of the sort, and you know it. Hint: misrepresentation only works if your audience isn’t the person whose words you’re trying to misrepresent…
You know very well I’m talking about MS’s Linux lab, led by Martin Taylor. You’re the one who came out with the cuckoo bomb concept.
and want other people to discuss their claim with them. This is what this topic is about.
This topic is about extremist Linux advocates. Neither of us are one: I’m a Linux moderate, and you’re a Linux impostor. Furthermore, there is no one else left here, so if you want to discuss Microsoft’s plans regarding Linux (which was my original point) then you’d better talk to me.