Sun Microsystems Inc. has just rolled out its first Linux-based desktop software and is working to secure deals with governments and businesses to deploy it, but the company isn’t targeting Microsoft Corp., a Sun executive said Thursday. “First and foremost, the objective of the Java Desktop System (JDS) isn’t to go after Microsoft,” said Peder Ulander, Sun’s director of marketing for Desktop Solutions.This statement is in direct opposition to what journalists (including OSNews) were told in September in a show of JDS back then by the Vice President of Engineering, Desktop Solutions of Sun, Curtis Sasaki. When I personally asked “who are your competitors”, he specifically told us that Red Hat, SuSE and other Linux players were not seen as competitors, because Sun was after MS on the Enterprise Desktop with this product. I hope Sun clears up their strategy and decide what they really want to do, but in the meantime, read our recent review of the final code of JDS.
Sun Looks to Lead Linux onto Desktop
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Atleast the guy is honest. Lets hope that SUN does make a few waves and starts growing. Nothing would please be more than having the marketshare of Microsoft trimmed down to 70%.
>Atleast the guy is honest.
Which one of the two?
This is about targeting the business user, not the home user.
I’m sure JDS is just fine, but I think I’ll hold out for Solaris 10. Seems like somebody buying from Sun would be better off with their primary OS. Just hope the hardware support is there for x86.
>Atleast the guy is honest.
Which one of the two?
The marketing guys comments regarding virus’s and so forth.
> Nothing would please be more than having the marketshare of Microsoft trimmed down to 70%.
I know you meant 0.7 %
But this begs the question – who do they think they’re going after? What’s on the corporate desktop these days?
Damn shame – brilliant engineers, solid high end servers, the most scalable UNIX OS … and clueless, confused upper management droids.
“….the most scalable UNIX OS….”
For the high end I’s sat that honor belongs to IRIX, the only Unix out there to support 256+ procs in single image mode.
For the low end, I do not think Solaris embeds that well…
So I would not call Solaris “the most scalable unix OS” (TM)
Hmmm what boxen? Origin x000? Those are NUMA, so I doubt you’d get scalability at the high end for workloads with high communication to computation ratio vs SMP (Sun’s Enterprise).
Inter-node communication would kill the latency. And the Origin’s cache coherence was funky too.
I’m not sure CPU count is the only scalability metric. ALthough I don’t have numbers, so this is all handwaving.
But yes, having finer grained locking in the kernel means that you take a hit at the lower end.
We all know Sun would love to shrink down Billy Monopoly’s market share down to a number indistinguishable from zero.
As the in-the-title quote from Peder says, they are encouraging companies to move away from Microsoft. It would be ingenuous to think anyone is being fooled. The desktop is owned by Microsoft. There is no one else to take market share away from.
And as soon as Linux has apps and a better apps development platform… Linux will start rapidly displacing Windows. I would say a rapid increase in business desktop adoption rate will hit just about the same time Longhorn ships in 2006.
Of course all Microsoft has to do is move their version of .NET over to Linux (along with all their apps) and price all their Linux software at something close to zero for a while. And then they will own that market as well and be able to charge monopoly-level prices again.
I would have thought that honour belonged to Cray UNICOS 😉 IRIX can scale well above 512 in a single image. Heck sgi engineers have gotten Linux working on a 512 proc system, though i say IRIX is still a better choice for such a system, pity development of MIPS have basically stalled.
Is this Linux distro for free?
If so, it is a great opportunity for Sun to make big things, now that Redhat is charging for all their projects.
Show me a great desktop and I’ll move from my beloved RedHat 9 to you.
“Show me a great desktop and I’ll move from my beloved RedHat 9 to you.”
For you are in love with your distro (sic!, lol) little do you know about it… you can have it still for free, minus support… I don’t think you can have the Sun-thinggy for free though. If you want a great desktop, get Suse, or in your case its even better to stay with RH whilst you are at it.
I had a talk with someone that works with me here about the whole soup of the computer world, and what a big soup it is! Here you have a few company’s, Novel, SCO, Suse, Redhat and Sun… It’s the most complex soup drama ever…
SCO makes a Linux system, then sues Linux…
Redhat, makes a Redhat Linux, then makes Fedora
Suse gets bigger, and loves KDE
Novel buy’s Ximian, then buy’s Suse, but Sun uses Suse, but Novel and Sun are competitive against each other…
Then Sun makes Solaris Intel and makes it free, then they dont make it free then they stop making it, then people complain and they make it again, then they make a SunLinux, then they stop that and say use Solaris, then they make another Linux JDE but this time based on Suse, then Suse gets sold… Then they say they are to bet Microsoft, then they say they aren’t…
Thats all off topic sorry… I just wanted to say I used to love Sun, my first computer was a Sparc IPC running Solaris, and it’s the only world I ever knew (dads work used Solaris). So when I got a PC when I was in high school around when Windows98 came out I was scared to ever use Windows so I used Linux to make it like my Solaris, then they made Solaris Intel and I was happy again. Then they stop making it, then they brought it back. Then they made a like SunLinux which I was happy again and thought it was going to be the biggest Linux ever, then they stop making that and didn’t really sell it for home users. Then they tell me to use Solaris again, but now I dont want to. And now they make JDE, and I’m scared to do it because who knows what they will say tomorrow. Just like the OpenSTEP Solaris idea they had, which they should have stuck with but didn’t…. The list goes on.
Will I ever get JavaDesktop? I don’t know, I’m scared to, that company is to messed up, something needs to happen there, some new people need to work for them and have a plan and stick to it, and work with it and so on.
Make Java Desktop, use Gnome, make the file system like Mac where apps are installed, and have all the tools, and you will have something to compete. In my opinion nothing will ever compete because everyone is traditional with all there ideas. Mac OS X has been the first person to give something new and different two the UNIX world besides NextSTEP, and no one cares to copy or agree with those idea and I have no idea why. And I feel ashamed to even speak of non-traditional ideas like file structure because as soon as you do, you get bashed, I don’t even post comments anymore because everyone thinks I’m insane and stupid etc. Whats so wrong with something that makes sense? Why do I have to have over 2000 files in /usr/bin.
Do you remember that interview with that guy from Lindows a long time ago that talked about file structure and he said no you shouldn’t change it, all you need is a geek on every street corner that understands it and the world will be ok. What a retard in my opinion…
Sun, want a desktop, make everything look like a desktop… Start Menu doesn’t count… Where are my apps? How do I install new apps, delete old apps on the fly? What use this program, use that, pick from 5000 things, don’t care about good sites like bebits.com those don’t count you dont’ need them, take the fun way, blah blah… I’m insane now, but you guys made me insane, I don’t care it’s 5:17AM and I’ve been up to long. Bye.
Hey William Ray Barker. I like you. You are not alone with those opinions.
I don’t understand what’s your problem with /usr/bin. If there’s 2000 files there, it’s because you’ve got 2000 programs installed. It’s simple like that. How would you want it be?
Second, the user must not know about /usr/bin. He should only know about his “Documents”, “Pictures” and “Music” folders, which can all be inside his home directory.
Victor.
/usr/bin is where your binary executables are kept. If you have 2000 files in /usr/bin, then you have 2000 binary executables, or software applications installed.
In Windows and Mac, that is the equivalent of 2000 folders in a directory. Now tell me, which do you think is easier to manage? 2000 folders or 2000 files in one folder?
System folders should be allowed to have more, thats plan and simple. Application folders no, there should never be more then 20 folders in a directory, anything more then it’s to hard on the mind. Let me give you a simple idea.
/Applications
/Games
/Internet
/Multimedia
/System
/Utilites
Let me give you some more
/Users/wrb/Preferences/Applications
/Users/wrb/Preferences/Games
/Users/wrb/Preferences/Internet
/Users/wrb/Preferences/System
/Users/wrb/Preferences/Utilites
First off I don’t have 2000 files installed as far as I know, I did a normal install of RedHat 9 with Ximian as far as I know from my start menu I have maybe 30 programs, they rest I don’t care about. If I don’t see them, or understand them, I don’t care about them. Some things should be easy to find that aren’t on the start menu, in windows I have a C:Utilities folder which has some applications that are low key, even some command line applications. If I have over 2000 of those, I will just have to memorize what I have.
Second MacOS X has everything in /Applications which becomes a problem over time if you install more and more applications, things should reflect the start menu in all aspects. Folders are suppose to have application and more, start menu has short cut to normal application. Second in Mac OS X it is very ugly to have some Icon folders like .app type of files and others that have folders. Either all should be .app files where it looks just like an icon or all should be in a folder. I really hate installing non-Apple items just because I don’t like having folders on my Mac OS X. It looks so stupid to have two things. If you dont like my root style then you should have folders with in /Applications such as /Applications/Internet. They already have a /Applications/Utilites folder why not others? I thought the point was to be organized as much as possible.
On the Linux side (lets leave shared libraries out of this) it should be the same way. A folder holds the program, you don’t want to program, delete the folder then in your ‘home’ directory go into your preference folder and do the same.
Of course some people can have privlege to do this, others a popup menu ask you to type in super-user password (not counting home user folder of course) and other users can’t even get to the point of the prompt.
I hate hidden files like .this and .that I don’t know what half of them are, and which ones I want to get rid of in the first place. I want to reset lets say my Gaim settings to default. Delete /Users/wrb/Preferences/Internet/Gaim and I’m back in business. Normal settings. You can even go further .bashrc files is now /Users/wrb/Preferences/System/Shells/Bash.
I have spent time and time and time setting up the perfect directory structure but of course I”m an idoit when it comes to programming.
You think everyone knows what /bin is? /System/Commands sounds good to me /System/Administrator/Commands sounds good for /sbin… /System/Processes anyone? for /proc? /System/Varibles….for /var?
The point you should be able to point, click, and navigate to the hardest things possible with out knowing how to do it. Lets say you are at work and the boss says ok i need you to edit our web server to allow 100 users to view our web page now, not 10 there should be a file you need to edit and thats it can you do that for me.
Well lets see… I know it’s in the System so step one lets go to /System folder… now what… hm well I see a /System/Server folder I bet it’s in there, he did say web server… now I see /System/Server/Web , hey I’m in business, now I just need to edit one of these files. And so on… Why does the world think thats so stupid?
Want to delete an application? Easy lets delete firebird real quick…
Step one well I know it’s an application I use and it’s internet related… hm. /Internet sounds good… It’s a web browser… hm /Internet/Firebird hey found it!! ok I just need to delete that. Now it’s gone. Wait I should probably get rid of my settings for it too. Ok now I’m in my home folder what do I do… Well lets see it’s a preference I think. Yes here it is /Users/wrb/Preferences and now it was in /Internet/Firebird before so… lets see oh here it is /Users/wrb/Preferences/Internet/Firebird… ok thats gone, now I’m good as gold!
You think thats stupid I know thats fine, but it’s simple, it makes sense just looking at it and that is what it needs plan and simple. IF ANYONE made that for me I would pay them my money every year as I do for Apple and I would be a happier man. Plain and simple.
We need to think of people that aren’t hardcore programmers telling us what is good or not, we need someone that has no clue what they are doing telling us what is good for us. Think that this is suppose to be something new, great, and beautiful and forget about the 30 or 40 year old history of UNIX and how great it was and is. It was great to type something smaller then Applications in 1970, I’m sure and so the levels were shorten, but we are visual now, and need to think logically.
So bad mouth me like always and call me crazy like before because I’m 22 and want something like that instead of being 40 and have been with my friend UNIX for 20 years making love it and it’s tradition, I hate tradition, I thought we wanted to take on the world, not stick to the past.
Bye.
And why would SUN want to be in the desktop business? Nothing they have done in their lives suggests that they can do any kind of meaninful desktop, and the current offering is no different.
I do not see the Sun desktop taking over. They have not made a business case to say the least, not unless I have missed something?
/Applications
/Games
/Internet
/Multimedia
/System
/Utilites
Would you agree that Games are a type of Application? Internet Programs are, also, Applications? What about my Multimedia Applications?
While I understand what you are going for, I think it needs more work. You won’t see a “Linux” distro do this though, it will be more like what Apple has done with NeXT and BSD, take them a morph them into OS X.
A smart couple of individuals would take the linux kernel and try for a new OS, using the kernel as the base…no more linux Distros.
Nobody is bad mouthing anyone. It’s important to understand, first, why things are they way they are before we jump into conclusions and critize.
In Unix/Linux, users have no authority, power, outside their home directory or folder. So lets assume William is the name of your home directory or folder, you can’t change or something do anything outside the William folder.
If you want to reset Xchat to default, you do it in your home directory. If you want to change your fonts, you do it in your home directory. If you want to create a new folder, you do it only in your home directory. You can only alter, delete and create new files in your home directory.
As a normal user, you have no business in /usr/bin, or /usr/lib, or /sbin or whatever. Leave all that crap to your package manager and your package developers.
Your package manager should provide you with tools that enable you know which software applications you have installed and where they are situated. There are other GNU tools like “which” that perform a similar functions.
Your package manager should also tell you how many packages you have installed. Your package manager is also responsible for adding and removing software application you need or don’t need.
Now configuration files in Unix/Linux, Mac does it’s own weird thing, are stored in two places, /etc and /home. The configuration files that you should be bothered with are the files in /home. Except you have root, superuser, previledges, you can’t change the files in /etc.
The configuration files in /home can be changed. These files are hidden. If you have a Gaim, for example, installed, it will create a folder where all your user configurations are kept. The folder will look something like this, “.gaim”.
If you want to restore or change your gaim preferences you can do it through gaim or through the folder “.gaim”. If you want to restore gaim to it’s default setting, all you need to do is remove .gaim and restart Gaim. Simple.
The Unix/Linux file system was designed with security in mind and designed to prevent users from breaking their system. In Windows, anyone can write a little script to delete the Window System folder and your system is essentially gone.
If you allow users to fiddle with folders Applications, Games, or all that you mentioned, you are creating an insecure and flawed file system by design. Users should only play with things in their home directory and nothing outside it.
Macs are partially flawed by design. Because I could sit in front of a Mac users system and trash the system folder just by dragging and dropping, and the whole system is as good as gone. Or I could just drag all the application folders to the trash can and empty the trash can. And say bye bye to your apps. The funny thing is a that even a small kid could do that by mistake.
In Unix/Linux that will never happen, *except* some has your root password and can su you to root via a terminal to cause the damage.
It is nice to critize, but critics are only great when you provide a solution to the problem. Your solution is flawed security wise. Security and functionality should never be compromised at the expense of convenience.
The biggest problem in Linux is the age of learn. You start with what you got but if you want to learn more you have to go completely from A to Q or beyond.
That was one of the biggest things I remember about Windows was the learning experience and how I grew to learn more and more on my own. You start out you except the start menu, you don’t understand the control panel, and you are scared of the C: drive.
Later you learn how to change the start menu, and you slowly learn the control panel, then you grow more to learn parts of the C drive.
Then you learn how to do custom installs and install things in different places, how to change things in the start menu, and slowly and more so, you learn more and more over time just by taking the time to do it. It’s all there for you to learn.
Take Linux whats next after learning the basic desktop? The filesystem? services? the command line? These are things that are a bigger step then doing slower steps on Windows, and this is why Linux can not be a Desktop system yet, or never for a home user. Because you learn a little bit, and to learn anything else you have to learn a ton and read a book and so on. I’m not in the mood to do research and no one else is either.
tired…. (IP: 205.232.78.—)
I do agree with you YES, but I have come into a problem with that arragement.
Yes /Applications/Games
/Applications/Internet
Does sound great… problem I have come along is what about just a typical application?
/Applications/Applications? Acrobat Reader for example goes into play and a few others my GermanNow! cd too, even Microsoft Office I have like that /Applications/Microsoft Office I have now in Windows.
The problem is though that the start menu should reflect the system root folder. It’s suppose to be a ‘short-cut’ to the system applications correct? Where I don’t have to navigate through the system to get to them, and I don’t have to have icon’s all over the desktop or the dock or any place else.
If you have a startmenu you aren’t going to have /Applications and everything in that would you?
Hi
Your idea sounds great but in practise it isnt. I have something like synaptic or kpackage. I can remove a application by selecting and pressing remove instead of navigation a directory. New comers have a lot of difficulty understanding the hierarchy. They shouldnt have to hop through multiple directories inorder to just remove a application.
The only thing that should have them open up a directory is to look at their personal data like documents and music. Even that can be hidden. If you take music its better served through a jukebox like software rather than having them open up a directory. So in essence you should hide the filesystem as far as possible if someone is using a GUI. If someone opens up his home directory the file manager should collect the meta data and display stuff in a organised way. Thats where stuff like storage or longhorn views come in.
If I use a GUI I shouldnt have to care about whether my settings are in /home/username/.gaim or /settings/internet/instant messenger/gaim/settings
Regards
Rahul Sundaram
well it will be interesting to see how Linux does on low end machines in the future then, their preemption code is tied into their locking code for SMP, the more fine grained the better the preemption.
Dude…
Why the user should know about the “/usr/bin” or “/etc” or whatever configuration directory? You gave the example of gaim, but it’s not a good example. If i must restart my gaim preferences, the corret thing would be to have a “Restart Preferences” on the Gaim GUI.
No user would think of going inside Programs/Whatever/Gaim and deleting the folder. This is too complex.
Then you gave the example of deleting an application, which was even worse. Deleting an application is a *package manager* job, not the user’s.
The should only see his *personal* files (Documents, Music, Books, etc), nothing more.
Victor.
We aren’t talking about Linux for Servers so that does not matter we are talking about Linux for Desktops and Workstations.
Yes I understand why we have the step we have now and these people aren’t suppose to mess with this and that FINE I understand I’m not a retard.
But you still can have a setup like that and not break the system don’t tell me you can’t it all goes along with permission levels.
If you don’t want someone to be able to delete something out of /Applications then they have to have the right to. You can set permission levels for anything even on a mac if you take the time.
I’m not saying mac another mac, make me a desktop system that just works, I’m not asking for a server system, I don’t care about server systems on my desktop do I.
As far as I remember on RedHat it ask you for super-users permission for this and that. You can do the same thing to edit anything in /Applications quite easy. Permission levels have always been around.
In a desktop system there is a super user… It’s the person that owns the computer, and they are still users, people that live in the house. The parent shoudl protect the data with ease. So if you are saying this and that about flaw security you are only telling me Linux isn’t for the desktop and never ever will be. And if you are talking about permission levels you can still make those it’s not impossible. I just believe you are so 1984 simple think that you can’t free your mind to think any other way or any other linux code writter. You speak like robots, UNIX file system is good, it’s the ubber win, I rule, it’s easy, you are stupid.
Linux and UNIX will always, always have the same secerty it has today, no matter what the file system structure is. The only way it won’t have the security is make it none-multiuser like BeOS, and the only way to make it none-secure is not have permission levels. Security is at the heart of Linux and UNIX, not the file system, there is nothing in the file system that makes up for that. They are just folders just like any other folder, they have permissions just like you can give to any other folder. End of story. You already started hating me, even though I’m sane.
“I’m not saying (JDS) isn’t vulnerable to viruses and worms … but let’s face it, 90 to 95 percent of worms are created to exploit the Windows environment,” Ulander said.
Well considering the fact that Windows has like 96% of the market and the majority of users do NOT update their systems to prevent such problems. Plus, most of these viruses come from Asia region. But on the other hand, lets say if Sun Linux desktop Operating system became the worlds most popular OS (chuckle) it would new problems. People who do things like writing viruses are going to write them on the most popular OS. With the new version of Longhorn coming out, it will be extremely hard for them to do this.
About the only problem I have with the situation now is the competing way each desktop handles the menus. Why can’t we just have one location where all the menu short cuts can be created. Why do we have to have /usr/share/gnome2 and /usr/share/kde3? As for applications, well, there is still a heated debate. Personally I like to keep my OS and application files seperately, so either /usr/local or /opt would do quite nicely. Lets hope that one day we can come to an agreement to which one should be used.
At some point in time, you’d be forced by whatever reasons to learn new ways of doing things. If you keep an open mind and your are willing to learn and explore, you might realise the new way of doing things is more functional, secure and better than the ways you are accustomed to.
I was fortunate enough to begin learning Linux from the command line. So the first thing I learnt in Linux was navigating efficiently and effectively through this new and weird file system.
All the individuals I’ve introduced to Linux, I have forced them to learn to use the basics of the command line. I think it is the first thing any Unix/Linux user should learn to do. A lot will disagree with me here.
But just as you learnt with time to use Windows through trial and error and so forth, you’d also learn with time to become proficient at using Linux. The problem is you say you don’t have time to learn Linux.
I don’t share the ideology that anyone can use Linux. That’s a blatant myth. Just as everyone learnt how to do almost everything in life, you’d have to devote some time to learn how to use Linux. Many people don’t have the time to do that, yet they complain the Linux is hard to use. But of course it is, so also is Windows, Mac, Solaris, BeOS…
I dont’ believe in package management systems for one simple reason. They tell me nothing about an application. Take for example installing stuff on Mandrake, the list is so big I can care less. Debian I can’t even touch. RedHat yes good but only a few applications. The biggest problem is it doesn’t tell me what is out there and what is good and show me what it looks like. I may not like what one linux wants me to have and another. I know you can get something like snyaptic but that doesn’t it’s just names in groups nothing more. You should have a default few applications perfered by the linux such as all gnome linux or all kde linux with nothing else. Then from there have a web site set up that is easy to follow with great detail of what is most downloaded, with those applications links, screenshots and even comments. Linux doesn’t have that. I have no clue what is good or not good, I just get a list, I don’t know what the program looks like does, nothing. I want to know what has been downloaded a lot, what has been updated recently.
Bebits has the best software website on the planet and it’s one of the few reason you should even consider using BeOS still. BeOS was great but bebits was a part of it, if there was no bebits, I don’t think I would have ever used beos.
Talking about deleteing applications… and home user folder. You could have an administration situation where they are able to have a package management system as well liek a delete tool that can delete every single users preferences for that program. It could even be part of the delete feature of deleteing the folder.
The administrator logs in goes into /Internet/ and right clicks Gaim Uninstall instead of just clicking Delete or throwing in the trash bin. Then a menu comes up that says Would you to Delete Preferences? Then options are below, Yes All Users, Yes Pick User, and No. Or you could just have a package tool too for uninstalling. The problem that you can’t just delete a folder I understand is sometimes you dont’ want the user to lose it’s preferences. I know what you are going to say to liek I”m contradition myself but I’m not, I know what you are going to say about everything so you don’t need to talk I know what you think of me and MY kind that won’t join your Nazi beliefs, and use something and not understand it. Simplethink, I shouldn’t have ThoughtCrimes right? I heard it all before, dont’ think different those are thoughtcrimes use Apple and be forced this, or use Windows and be forced that, because use here are from Oceania or whatever and we do the same with out a shread of change or grown, you don’t grow, you are horrible. Kill me now. Bye.
I do not see the Sun desktop taking over. They have not made a business case to say the least, not unless I have missed something?
They’ve made the business case, too bad they haven’t backed up that business case with meaningful dialogue via establishing an ISV network. This ISV network could be developed by SUN doing to the old, “how much will it cost to port?” then cut a cheque. Once the ISV’s are on board, and the PHB’s see that they can run their favourite business application AND cut costs at the same time, you’ll have a winner on your hands.
For example, 1 year ago, had SUN bought out Corel for the handsome sum of $400million, at the end of next year, we could have actually seen a native Linux version of Wordperfect Suite; Wordperfect, Quatro Pro, Paradox and Presentations.
The simpy fact is that Wordperfect Suite is the only one that even comes close to the feature set which office has.
Linux is /the/ Most Scalable Unix (or Unix look-alike)
🙂
How? Why? Can Irix or Solaris scale /down/ all that well? Linux can. Linux scales very damn well in both directions, up and down, while most Unixen only scale up well. Solaris and Irix rock the highend, but Linux is shipping on ATMs, cell phones, PDAs, and even some ultra-geeky watches. Linux (thanks to 2.6) can scale up to 256 CPUs as well, as per a now shipping box from SGI. Can Solaris scale /down/ as well as Linux does? Scalability means both directions, not just up. In that area, Linux owns you all. 😛
*slips into his flame retardant suit*
If they are going to lead, why did they take (Suse linux 8.2) and just add Gnome desktop manager to it. I do not see the innovation nor the desire to do so. It would have been better to start out with the basics and develop from there. See what the end user wants, why should this be any better than the other 10 or so versions. I am missing the point or there is not one to start with.
One point for sure, they tried to make the desktop look like Windows. Why copy Windows if it is so horrible? I have never understood this concept. Answer, because Windows has a nice desktop and a logical manner in which you can work with the operating system.
I did learn command line first in Linux I know and it is harder compared to what is out there, and the reason why is it doesn’t want to change. I started on a terminal IBM terminal with a .3 baud modem playing robots and others. Then went to Solaris… See there you go again telling me I”m stupid with out even listening to me. Thats how it is… I swear you say something against this or that it’s like saying why I love Dungeons and Dragons but how about we change this, you can’t do that, you can’t ask for change it’s look down on badly. You lie and say things are about open ideas but as soon as someone has one you look down on them, if they are on a development team they are kicked off. It’s not about us or someone learning…. FOR THE LAST TIME WE ARE SUPPOSE TO BE MAKING A DESKTOP PRODUCT FOR EVERYONE
YEs everyone lets start and learn the command line I see it now it can be at school in class, okay now grandma less do ‘ls’ now dont’ for get to shutdown grandma with shutdown -h now. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Even if a task is longer if it looks logical to the user it will be easier to do and quicker to learn. The only thing left is to have shortcuts to things, which Apple did for example on the new finder and the doc, and so on. I hate you people. I’m the last sane person alive, if only I had the money like Bill Gates, then the world woudl make sense again.
Everybody’s been talking about how Sun doesn’t have a coherent strategy. I think they do and it’s just taken them a while to figure out the best way to implement it. Sun sells big servers. That’s where the real money is for them. So, their current focus on selling small servers and desktops is just a way to get you to buy their big servers. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
Take the JDS for example. I don’t think they’re planning to make much (if any) money from it. Just like Apple’s iTunes is a sneaky way to get you to buy an iPod (where the real profit is), the JDS is simply a way to get you to buy Sun servers. How? It’s simple. If most/all of your desktops are running Sun software, what’s the first company you’re think of when buying a server? So you go to Sun and ask if their servers will work well with the desktops you bought from them. The Sun sales guy gets this really big smile and tells you that, not only does the JDS work best with Sun servers running JES, but if you buy a server with JES, you get half off of your desktop license fees. How do HP and IBM or even MS compete with that? Then the Sun sales guy tells you that you can save even more money if you go with thin clients (SunRay). Sure you have to buy a bigger server up front, but in the long term, you have less support costs, the terminal last longer, and the cost per terminal is less than buying a PC. This is a solution that could make a lot of people very happy. Sun says that their solutions are cheaper in the long run and, in the long run, it’s in Sun’s best interests if they are right (or they WILL become a niche player if they can stay alive at all).
Anyways, the way I see it (this is just my opinion and, apart from using Sun servers, I don’t have any connection to Sun), Sun’s desktop and low-end server strategy is to get you to buy their high end servers because that’s where the money is. This is a long term strategy and, for it to work, the low-end stuff has to be really good. After all, if you buy JDS and it sucks, what are the odds your next big server will be from Sun?
Just my $.02
Fine! I may be stupid or whatever added insults you put your statements. But all I’m saying is that a user should have nothing do outside his or her home directory. That I know Linux/Unix got and got well for sure.
I’m not arguing that things can’t be done better. But I don’t see your solution as being better than what is already available, security wise and functionality wise. And I think the Linux/Unix file system is better than what we have available on any other platform.
I’ve also stated above why I think so.
I dont’ believe in package management systems for one simple reason. They tell me nothing about an application. Take for example installing stuff on Mandrake, the list is so big I can care less. Debian I can’t even touch. RedHat yes good but only a few applications. The biggest problem is it doesn’t tell me what is out there and what is good and show me what it looks like. I may not like what one linux wants me to have and another. I know you can get something like snyaptic but that doesn’t it’s just names in groups nothing more. You should have a default few applications perfered by the linux such as all gnome linux or all kde linux with nothing else. Then from there have a web site set up that is easy to follow with great detail of what is most downloaded, with those applications links, screenshots and even comments. Linux doesn’t have that. I have no clue what is good or not good, I just get a list, I don’t know what the program looks like does, nothing. I want to know what has been downloaded a lot, what has been updated recently.
A good package manager should be able to provide you with information about a package like it’s size, its website, what it does and so on. A good package manager should also let you search for packages you want. There are package managers in Linux that do all this and much more.
If you want screenshots, you could always visit the website the package manager provides you. The package manager also will describe what the package does, and other metadata about the package. That’s a package manager’s function. A good package managers on Linux already do this.
The administrator logs in goes into /Internet/ and right clicks Gaim Uninstall instead of just clicking Delete or throwing in the trash bin. Then a menu comes up that says Would you to Delete Preferences? Then options are below, Yes All Users, Yes Pick User, and No. Or you could just have a package tool too for uninstalling. The problem that you can’t just delete a folder I understand is sometimes you dont’ want the user to lose it’s preferences. I know what you are going to say to liek I”m contradition myself but I’m not, I know what you are going to say about everything so you don’t need to talk I know what you think of me and MY kind that won’t join your Nazi beliefs, and use something and not understand it. Simplethink, I shouldn’t have ThoughtCrimes right? I heard it all before, dont’ think different those are thoughtcrimes use Apple and be forced this, or use Windows and be forced that, because use here are from Oceania or whatever and we do the same with out a shread of change or grown, you don’t grow, you are horrible. Kill me now. Bye.
I’m glad you know you are contradicting yourself. Your problem is that you want Linux to behave like Mac or Windows. You need to understand that it is neither or them, and might never be.
Having those wonderful screenshots and all do not make for a good operating system. What about all those ‘segmentation faults’ in the operating system. So they are attacking Windows and they have more bugs in this Sun (Suse linux 8.2) operating system than they can shake a stick at. Sun lives in a mythical world of hype and trying to be something they are not. Meanwhile the business world turns to Dell, look at the market share they have now. The Linux Clusters most are Dell, when you think of Servers/Desktops, Dell comes to mind.
I actually do have 2000 files in /usr/bin as well as sevveral others in /bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/local/sbin, and /sbin and my kde files are in a different directory plus config files and libraries are also installed in seperate directories (/etc, /lib, /usr/lib). Moving stuff to an /apps directory does not require have 2000 folders there. There needs to be a clear seperation for system utilities and GUI applications (i.e. desktop apps). There is no reason I should treat gimp the same as fdsik. If fdsik, ping, traceroute, etc. want to be in /usr/bin fine, but gaim, gimp, open office, etc. need to be in /apps. The current system is a mess and FHS really does not adress desktop applications. The arcane system requires one to rely on a package manager for installs so that there is a database of where things are so they can be uninstalled. There should be a more standard database of installed applications, i.e an open standard xml file listing all the installed application and where various items are. This would open up the Linux architecture to more 3rd party installers.
Sytem utilities are often placed in /sbin while application utilities and tools are placed in /usr/bin. It seems most of you are just looking for things to complain about. So what if gimp and fdisk share the same folder? Aren’t they both executables? Isn’t it easier when the system knows where to search for executables?
Now, I’m all for consistency and good standards, but doesn’t consistency dictate that we should keep executables in one folder, libraries in another and documents yet in another. Why do I need to keep gaim, gimp and open office in /apps? What’s wrong with them being in /usr/bin? Aren’t they executable binary applications? Don’t we place executable binaries in /usr/bin?
You clamor for consistency and standards, how is placing gaim in /apps more consistent than placing in /usr/bin where it rightly deserves to be?
nice nick… kyôtekijin.
When we talk about desktop OS…
There are guys talk about ‘Linux is great Server OS…’
AAAAAAlways
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I know that… idiot.
“Macs are partially flawed by design. Because I could sit in front of a Mac users system and trash the system folder just by dragging and dropping, and the whole system is as good as gone. Or I could just drag all the application folders to the trash can and empty the trash can. And say bye bye to your apps. The funny thing is a that even a small kid could do that by mistake.”
You can’t drag and drop anything like the system folder unless you are root. If you do lets day drap your system folder to the trash and will be greeted by an operation is not permittes dialog box. Use the system before commenting about it.
You can’t drag and drop anything like the system folder unless you are root. If you do lets day drap your system folder to the trash and will be greeted by an operation is not permittes dialog box. Use the system before commenting about it.
How about application folders?
I agree Joe, you could have a normal linux system that normal user applications don’t apply for. And you are right things should be in groups and catagory’s. The idiot Anonymous with his, why they are binary this… Well all I have to say is why dont we just have / and thats it they are all files aren’t they. I mean thats basically what you are saying when you say so what 2000 files this and that.
I’m all for having the default file structure as long as you can turn it on and off from view in the desktop enviornment. Have a menu in your file manager settings that says hide LFS. And show me just Apps, thats fine I’ll be happy, or my setup and I”ll be happy.
I just think my way would be even better to do some harder task even for an administrator but yes I would pay to have a system that can hide the system from me but still give me enough the system to see. The problem is if you did that all you would see is /Apps and /Users and nothing else because there is no need for /System which is where MacOSX keeps it’s GUI stuff unless you ran GNUSTEP it would be easy. But as far as Gnome, there isn’t much to put in there really that I can think of that will be useful. That is why you should just change everything around. But you can’t because all the developers are so hardcore they are robots and don’t know the meany of the world of change they think server class and thats all.
I feel sorry for Sun wanting to make a desktop system based on server class software which is useless to them. It’s not designed for the desktop because the developers don’t want it for the desktop they want it for the server and thats that. They are a machine, don’t talk about idiots to them and home computer user. Same goes with the company they try to sell this stuff to home user but you can’t, it’s impossible. Plan and simple. It won’t grow, it can’t it goes against everything the machines design, they design for the server, thats that.
“How about application folders?”
In OS X you can’t trash anything in your / dir unless you are root. Unless you put somehting in it. Dirs like Applications, Library, System, Users blah blah blah, you can’t delete unless you are root.
In OS X you can’t trash anything in your / dir unless you are root. Unless you put somehting in it. Dirs like Applications, Library, System, Users blah blah blah, you can’t delete unless you are root.
That’s funny because I just removed several application folders from my desktop right now without a single warning. Can you explain to me what is happening?
“That’s funny because I just removed several application folders from my desktop right now without a single warning. Can you explain to me what is happening?”
If you are talking about going into the /Applications and deleting an app then look at the permissions you have given yourself. If you are under the admin group the least you can do is delete an app. If I am not allowed to delete an app as an admin why in the world am I an admin. Sometimes I install multiple apps in a 10 minute span trying to figure out which one suits my needs best. It would be kind of a pain to sudo rm everytime I need something done. That been said I can’t do enough damage to the system that it will not boot as an admin. Dig into your System folder as deep as you want and try draggin something to the trash. You can’t. The beauty of OS X. I have enough power as an admin to get my work done but not enough to keep me from booting the system. So dont give a 2 year old admin access to your machine. And as far as you sitting down infront of a machine with an admin account open…. You can also unplugg the machine take it outside and run over it with your car and you would have accomplished your task faster than sudo rm -r whatever….
RE: –will be priced at $100 per user–
what Sun needs to realise is with this product they have for competition is SuSE-9 Professional, Redhat’s Workstation, Mandrake’s Powerpack or Professional edition (whatever Mandrake is calling their pro version)
i think Sun’s Linux distro is just a little over priced, the competetors items sell just a little lower priced than what Sun is asking, and i can buy a retail boxed set of any of the competitors and install them on as many computers as i want, take a CD burner and make copys of them to use in other offices, or take a copy home, or to give to employeees to put on their home computers…
so i will say for what this product is Sun is almost pricing it beond its market value…
One point worth thinking about for those who want executables strewn all over the filesystem instead of /usr/bin and /sbin etc – your PATH environment variable is going to be reaallllly looooonnng.
Mac OSX is a bit … bizzare – apart from the standard UNIX directory structure, it also has something like /System/Libraries and /System/Applications (I forget the exact path, someone please correct me). Now that’s schizophrenic. Maybe they’ll eventually sort it out.
But damn, what a shiny GUI
In the days when we didn’t have tab completion in shells, short, cryptic commands and directory names probably made sense. Besides, keyboards didn’t have soft keys. I really can’t predict when / if we’ll get rid of this legacy.
YALD (Yet Another Linux Distro) with StarOffice 7 thrown in. Please excuse me while I try and contain my excitement for Linux on the desktop *yawn*
‘YALD (Yet Another Linux Distro) with StarOffice 7 thown in’…..
Exactly, it is an old version (Suse Linux 8.2) with Gnome as a desktop manager. With StarOffice 7 in the package, which I have used and I do not like at all. It would be nice if they had some orginal idea than copying everything. Come on and quit copying Windows and be creative, no wonder the general public is not buying into it. They are happy running Windows XP and do not want to spend half the day trying to install something by command line.
i must say that linux needs an app like M$ add/remove programs because well i *can* use the command line i don’t feel like it b/c its less intuitive and i may add and remove ten apps a day and i can remember what packages i added for each, and if linux is going to be on the desktop then every joe schmoe is gonna need to be able to add and remove packages… but all this is neither here-nor-there as JDS is aimed only at the enterprise so there will be a *nix admin around to do all that for the individuals users and that they won’t be adding/removing packages as often.
the biggest thing that linux needs for further expansion is… *GAMES*. Not shitty games butlike kasteroids or grobots but real games like Empire Earth or Doom 3 etc. These people needs to play games like coke fiends sniff lines. They need Windows XP (Wine/WineX aren’t there yet) and yes windows is free as in beer (1- as students we get it for free from M$, 2- we’d steal it otherwise like our movies music and games)so if they run into problems or want to learn more about the operating system they are using: Windows. If the could play there games (with *NO* problems – or at least then on windows) then they would learn more about linux. this would get a greater mindshare and as they graduate and penetrate into the market linux along with them. thus every serious desktop linux distro should be including WineX as they (transgaming) need more funding to improve their product , and the greatest impedement for linux is geeks and their games. i can back this up by having talked to many students personally about this.
This is about targeting the business user, not the home user.
Does it say that?
Someone needs to lead linux to the desktop, they could be breaking linux law #1/
Law 1. Linux shall not ever be easy to use.
I think that Sun has a fairly nice product here from what I’ve seen (referring to JDS), but Mr. McNealy is the worst CEO/Spokesman Sun could possibly have. He should really step down to a more “backseat” position and let someone else be the public face of Sun.
He has lowered Sun in the eyes of many people by doing his “Anti-Microsoft Rant” every chance he gets, so it’s no surprise to me that now Sun execs are specifically stating “We’re not targetting MS with this product”. Perhaps enough people finally got wise enough to realize that publicly demonstrating your inferiority complex is not a good business model.
Their business model’s probably like:
1. Make top quality hardware
2. Never get in depth about how good our hardware is; Just insult Microsoft and compare our products to MS products
3. Constantly slam MS and Bill gates (but again, don’t go into too much detail about why we are better than MS. Just imply that we are)
4. ???
5. Profit
It’s a cool lil’ model, as far as originality goes, but hardly one which makes me want to plunk down money for their products.
The point is that the GUI apps do not need to be in PATH. Command line utilities need to be in path, GUI apps can be run with a shortcut, or “start”. If for some reason the GUI app _needs_ to be in PATH there are always system links. The PATH problem is really a non-issue, libraries can still be stored in standard locations.
The solution could be as simple as FHS adding
/apps – directory for GUI application folders (optional)
Although, actually making that happen would take an act of god largely due to the open nature of the operating system.
There are so many companies and people with their hands in the pot that coordinate a change in the way the platform works is nearly impossible. This ia a huge weakness in the open source methodology. A change like this would be trivial on a closed source platform.
Dude, you are turning really simple things into complicated stuff.
For example, you said you don’t like package managers because they only show list of software. Well, is that a *real* reason to not like it and throw it in the trash?
You don’t need all that delete-folder-fancy-stuff: just make a page like BeBits, with screenshots, and that’s all. Jesus.
Oh, and with synaptic you *can* see the “Gnome” app, or KDE app, if you want.
Just one more comment: *everything* you said can be done without changing the file structure. That is, without doing all those /Applications-fancy-stuff. Just make a nice GUI to do it all, and that’s it.
I see you really want to do these stuff with your file-manager (you’re always saying “i want to *delete* the application folder, blablabla”), but there’s really no good reason to do it that way.
Just make a nice software/package manager, and that’s it.
Victor.
Yes you can still build a GUI on top of /bin /usr/sbin, etc. You could even use random to create a location to store the file in and as long as the GUI compensates for the system “Joe User” never really needs to know where it is on the file system. But what if he needs to find the application and the files installed with it? This almost always requires find /, whereis, which or some other search mechanism. These will tell you where binary si stored but it won’t tell you where the rest of the files installed with it are stored, for that you need to look at the package manager database. Yeah, this is easy. In windows all you have to do is go to the folder it was installed to. There you usually find an uninstall.ini with a list of everything that was installed and where it was installed to.
But I forgot, rather than admit there are flaws and that they can’t be changed, it is much easier to argue that Linux has no flaws and nothing needs to be changed. Keep up the good propaganda.
Yes you can still build a GUI on top of /bin /usr/sbin, etc. You could even use random to create a location to store the file in and as long as the GUI compensates for the system “Joe User” never really needs to know where it is on the file system. But what if he needs to find the application and the files installed with it? This almost always requires find /, whereis, which or some other search mechanism. These will tell you where binary si stored but it won’t tell you where the rest of the files installed with it are stored, for that you need to look at the package manager database. Yeah, this is easy. In windows all you have to do is go to the folder it was installed to. There you usually find an uninstall.ini with a list of everything that was installed and where it was installed to.
And why the would user want to know where the *application* files are? He should only need to know where his *personal* files are.
Victor.
I forgot one thing: the GUI (on top of /usr/bin) could easily tell you where the application files are. Any package manager can do that already (example: dpkg -L package). You just need a GUI on top of that.
But I forgot, rather than admit there are flaws and that they can’t be changed, it is much easier to argue that Linux has no flaws and nothing needs to be changed. Keep up the good propaganda.
There are flaws, but *these* aren’t flaws. It’s a matter of having a GUI to handle the stuff you guys want.
Victor.
I just want to let Mr Barker know that he’s not the only one who thinks there are things in the traditional Unix world that are just plain unfriendly, and for no good reason. Sad to say, many of these things have not only made it into Linux, but many more have been added.
Before I go on: I think Stallmans idea to create a free OS was great. I think the world is a better place because of all the work done by the army of Free/Open Source programmers, from Linus to the thousands of unknowns. I think Linux is a great improvement over the alternatives, and I have used Linux exclusively for the last couple of years. But – I think Unix is the unfriendliest OS I ever used (and I used it for several years), and Linux at the command-line level carries on all that unfriendliness and adds some more of its own.
Let me add something that might help put this in perspective. For lack of a better term, there are people who are right-brain dominant, people who are left-brain dominant, and people scattered at every point along the continuum in between.
Most (all?) good programmers are very left-brain dominant; they are typically very good at abstraction, and for these folks, the fact that the “ps” command has nothing to do with PostScript, or the fact that “lpr” has nothing to do with lepers and everything to do with printing, is not an issue. These people are good at making the abstract connection between an illogical command or file tree layout and its use, and don’t understand why anyone else has problems with it.
If you proudly use vi, vim, or emacs, and don’t understand why everyone else doesn’t do the same, you are almost certainly left-brain dominant. If you think that “cat” is a reasonable name for a command that displays the contents of a text file, if the fact that “chmod -r” fails, while “cp -r” works,then you are probably left-brain dominant.
Just recently there was much publicity over research showing that people easily read text with spelling mistakes, provided the FIRST and LAST letters of the words are prexerved, leke the lost prat of thes suntince. So what is the naming “convention” for most Gnome and Kde and X programs? Yup, to mess up that all-important first letter of the name, by sticking a K or G or X or Qt in front of it, Kthus Gmaking Kit Xhard Gto Kread Gand Khard Qtto XKGQtpronounce.
Or you can neglect that awful convention, and simply choose a truly horrible name for your project, like “X-Cd-Roast”, or “xawdecode” or “glinuxsms” (all of which are real projects, by the way).
Those of us who are not so extremely left-brain dominant (I’m slightly left-brain dominant, but nearly in the middle of the continuum from right-brain to left-brain dominant) think that it would be a lot easier – and take nothing away – if the command to print a document is “print”, the command to show a file is “show”, and so on. Thank you,
Jörg Schilling, for naming your program “cdrecord”, and not GnuKQtXcdrecord. Similarly, we think a file system layout that you could navigate without memorizing “UNIX Power Tools” from cover to cover would be a Good Thing (TM).
The thing is, the folks who created Unix, and the folks who cloned it to create Linux and the BSD’s, were mostly left-brain dominant, and they created those OS’s in their image. The more right-brained folk usually stay far away from things like the creation of a new OS, unless maybe they make a KDE theme or a set of icons for it.
Apple Computers targets the typically most right-brained of computer users – artists and graphics professionals – and has consequently had to develop an appreciation of this difference between their customers and their programmers. Free/Open Source programmers, for the most part, have not had any reason to do likewise.
Can’t we all just get along, in the immortal words of Rodney King? Maybe the more right-brained folks could try to realize that everyone doesn’t see the world the way they do; maybe the more left-brained folks could do the same. That way, we can all continue to contribute to the creation of what is probably the world’s largest collaborative project, and certainly the largest testament to human altruism – the whole Free/Open Source software world.
-Nemo
“And why the would user want to know where the *application* files are? He should only need to know where his *personal* files are.”
With Linux “the user” is not my grandmother, not at all. In most cases “the user” is someone like me that is already capable of getting around in Linux but feel it is lacking as a desktop operating system.
BTW I would like to point out that your answer to this suggestion is in short “Linux does not need to make that change”
Remember what I said about how it is easier to argue that Linux has no flaws and nothing needs to be changed?
The truth is you are right, Linux will stay right where it is, at 1 or 2 % market share. And probably 75% of those 1-2% use it not because they believe it to be a better OS, but because they dislike Microsoft Inc. Some of them use it because they “can’t afford” a copy of Windows, some were brainwashed into using it by /. propaganda, and some use it just for something to do or for educational reasons (me).
I like this quote:
“Linux on the desktop is definitely an area where hype is ahead of reality by orders of magnitude” -Martin Fink
Linux is technically inferior to almost all other offerings, even giving it away for free people don’t want it.
“Most (all?) good programmers are very left-brain dominant; they are typically very good at abstraction, and for these folks, the fact that the “ps” command has nothing to do with PostScript,”
`ps` stands for “process status”, and
`top` stands for “table of processes”
” or the fact that “lpr” has nothing to do with lepers and everything to do with printing,”
umm.. line printer?
” is not an issue. These people are good at making the abstract connection between an illogical command or file tree layout and its use, and don’t understand why anyone else has problems with it.”
They are only illogical if you don’t take a little time
to learn about them.. You said you used Unix-like OSes
for over 2 years now? Well, if you are advanced enough
to use command-line instrucions like `ps` and `lpr` (which
are not intended for casual users) then you should be able
to read up a bit and realize their names are not illogical,
if it bothers you so much….
“If you proudly use vi, vim, or emacs, and don’t understand why everyone else doesn’t do the same, you are almost certainly left-brain dominant.”
I do use vim and like it somehow, i don’t even dream of
casual users getting to like it.. but that’s not a problem
with abstraction. It’s with practice and memory.
” If you think that “cat” is a reasonable name for a command that displays the contents of a text file,”
`cat` conCATenates files. It was made with the intention of glueing files together, not showing them on screen. `more`
is intended to do that instead.
The fact that cat can be used to “paste” text to the screen
doesn’t mean it should be it’s only use. Or would you rather
give it a Windows-like name like
`(company making product) + (flashy name) + (overinflated version number for extra sexyness)`
… kinda “GNU super file glue-viewer 2003″ Yeah that
would be a nice name to have under /bin… I bet it would
also be great for it to ask you for money every 30 days…
” if the fact that “chmod -r” fails, while “cp -r” works,then you are probably left-brain dominant. ”
… well, i agree with you there. That is the lack
of a convention.
I agree with you on the abstraction stuff. But your examples
are totally broken. the parameter needed to recursively copy
a set of files or CHange their access MODes (read chmod)
is not a good example of abstraction.. it’s just good memory
and practice.
You want a good example of abstraction? you could have
started by whining about how `cat` can be used to
display text to the screen when it’s only made for
concatenating. You have to bear in mind that the STanDard
OUTput of every program is the screen, and that Linux
treats STDOUT as a regular file, assigning output
of file-related programs to it by default. So, if you
just `cat somefile` , the output file is not being
specified, and thus gets out through STDOUT, meaning the
screen. That’s abstraction.
You want another good example? try pipes! explain what
`ps aux | grep -i kde` does.
And i’m going to say it again: it’s all about practice and
memory. Once upon a time i worked at a small company
providing tech support. Many of the clients were tour and
travel agencies. They used a system called SABRE. every
employee in the given business had it’s own workstation
with connection to SABRE printers (for vouchers and tickets)
and the SABRE management console, from which they query for
availability of a given kind of travel ticket or
reservations, make the sell and print the voucher.
I’m talking about people ranging from ages 19 all the way
up to one old woman that looked at least 70. mostly
middle-aged people that know crap about computers and
get infected all the time with dumb viruses, spyware and
that say “The internet closed down on me” when IE
crashes.
You want to know what the SABRE management console is?
It’s a friggin custom command-line app, blue background,
yellow text, which boasts an incredibly user-friendly
and easy to remember set of ~3-char commands paired up
with dos-like wildcards. And there was that 70+ woman
typing things like “LAS*/” and reading text-only formatted
tables to check for the availability of a given specific
product or service.
(did i forget to tell you this nice lady once cleaned up
her company printer with gasoline? because that’s what she
did back in the days when her typewriter got too dirty — of
course that printer went straight to the trash can — )
Casual users *CAN* use linux. Don’t let anything tell you
otherwise.
that Unix was created by engineers for engineers, and until fairly recently was never meant to be used by end users. Near everything about it backs this up. Look at the directory structure and common commands, their all shorthand. ls for list, ps for process status, bin for binary, src for source, lib for library, usr for user, var for variable, cp for copy, rm for remove, and so on. The directory structure is perfectly logical, once you understand it, but its hardly obvious or intuitive.
I’ll back up “d” and agree that casual users *can* use linux. Hell, my mom learned DOS for work and to this day shes frustrated by Windows after years with it. Command-lines may require memorisation, but once you got it you got it. Not that I’m advocating every user must learn the command-line, but it would be helpful. You cannot appreciate the beauty of Unix until you go digging into it.
However, although the directory structure isn’t similar to Windows, I would say that is lay out is alot easier for the end user to learn.
How many users have you seen confused over this whole C: D: and E: rubbish when it is easier to simply create nice little icons which are linked ot the mount points and call it “CDROM”, “CD-WRITER”, “FLOPPY”?
How many end users of intermediate level understanding are annoyed when the install a nice shiny new hard disk? their whole drive lettering is cocked up when in the UNIX environment it would be a matter of creating a partition(s) and mounting these partition(s).
Sure, there are some great parts of Windows but the directory structure is the last thing I would place on the “list of achievements”.
As for “mounting devices” which is a lie that is commonly spread by Windows users, one doesn’t need to mount devices via the commant line. If they’re using a new distribution, their devices should be on the desk and it is mearly a matter of double clicking and then right click-unmount when you want to unmount a device.
You want another good example? try pipes! explain what `ps aux | grep -i kde` does.
Well, a friend saw me using a pipe ps -a | grep -i pppd on freebsd and was curious to know what it was. After explaining to him that you can input the information from the last output and create a chain of events, he was quite surprised.
One good example I gave him was; for example, imagine if you unzip a file, then decide to launch a certain file once it has unzipped. Rather that opening the file, extracting the file, then opening word, then searching for that file, then click open. The whole chain of events can be compressed down into a few commands.
“And why the would user want to know where the *application* files are? He should only need to know where his *personal* files are.”
With Linux “the user” is not my grandmother, not at all. In most cases “the user” is someone like me that is already capable of getting around in Linux but feel it is lacking as a desktop operating system.
Right after i said that, i told what you can do to easily find the application’s file:
(in Debian)
# dpkg -L application
My point is not the Linux is perfect and doesn’t need changes. My point is that there’s no need to change what you want to change, because you already can easily do everything you said you would like to do.
So, in short terms, you basically said “Linux need to change, Linux need to change”, but didn’t said what really needs to change. What needs to be changed?
Victor.
With Linux “the user” is not my grandmother, not at all. In most cases “the user” is someone like me that is already capable of getting around in Linux but feel it is lacking as a desktop operating system.
BTW I would like to point out that your answer to this suggestion is in short “Linux does not need to make that change”
Remember what I said about how it is easier to argue that Linux has no flaws and nothing needs to be changed?
OK, say it is changed to the /Applications etc. What effect does this have on the end user?
As far as I can tell it just leaves more places to look for things.
Having all executables in /usr/bin shouldn’t matter because I never have to go into that directory. All I need to do is type gaim or whatever and it runs. Where ever I am on the system!
Deleting things? emerge –unmerge gaim. Of course this is too complex for desktop users so they can have a GUI that does this through some mouse clicks instead. That’s fine by me, makes no difference for either user as both the command line and GUI can live in harmony.
Now the users settings for that program; I can delete .gaim from my home dir, no biggie for the technical user. For the n00b GUI person they can just forget about it. They won’t see a dir with a ‘.’ in front of it when they are browsing and it will take up 70k on their HDD. And wehn they reinstall everything is there already setup! Failing that a GUI app could ask them if they want to remove that dir but the file layout has nothing to do with it.
What I’m getting at, in a very longwinded and indirect manner, is that the file layout shouldn’t bother the end user. As has been said before, everything should be transparent to them. So why do we need to change it? Your way to me (just me you have your own opinions) just seems to add more places to lose files and stuff…