“It was a typical Jobs move to lure away well-known manager John Sculley from Pepsico to be president of Apple. “If you stay at Pepsi, five years from now all you’ll have accomplished is selling a lot more sugar water to kids. If you come to Apple you can change the world,” Jobs is famously attributed as saying.” Read the story at eCommerceTimes.
Apple Computer – From Proud PC Inventor to Niche Player
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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They probably could do it, just not on thier terms. They would have to do something like cease thier hardware control, so that cheap mac hardware could be made. Face it, the majority of PC owners can’t afford an apple system with the same performance as the PC systems they choose. Just look to the streets if you want to see what I’m talking about, most people are driving low to mid cost vehicles, even though the luxury ones work better and look nicer, they can’t afford them.
Actually the software bit (OS and apps) can be easily ported to the x86 architecture (Jobbs said this himself). But for whatever reason, Apple will stick to the PPC architecture.
I don’t think it’s part of their “corporate vision” to become number 1 on the desktop anyway.
Well I wouldn’t exactly call Apple a Niche player. They are providing a product that anyone _could_ have. When I think of niche I think of the guys that are _still_ 100% devoted to producing commodore 64 software (and yes there is a small niche market for this).
The idea that Apple’s market is ‘niche’ is more FUD than anything — and it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. If we all went around saying the earth was flat eventually we’d start to believe it. Hey it’s been done before.
Apple is in the same league as Dell, it’s just that most people either: 1. don’t know it, or 2. won’t admit it.
I don’t think Apple is in the same league as Dell, I think they are above that. Look at their machine it’s quality built, I have never seen a consumer PC better built than that, and as quiet too.
However, they are pretty expensive. For about $3500 for a G5 with 1 SATA drive and 512 megs around there anyway, that’s what I can get for going through Apple, but for that price I can build myself a dual-Opteron system, with 1 gb, and a radeon 9800XT, with also 2 250SATA drives, and a Xaser III case(very high end as cases run), that doesn’t include a monitor or speakers.
Azmeen Afandi:
Maybe it’s just my view, but Apple does not seem to have any unified vision at all. All “normal” (for better or for worse) companies more or less know what they’ll be doing in two years, while Apple jumps around in a search for perfect product.
What is niche? 5% of the US market? Yep. That sounds like niche. Less than 1% of the world market? Yep. That sounds like niche too.
Basically, few people are going to pay premium prices for a computer when it will be obsolete in 18 months. But thank heavens some do – MAC is a neat platform.
The article didn’t mention another monumental Jobs goof – that IBM and others begged him to port NEXT to intel so they could fight MS. He took their money (100 million was it?) and never delivered. THAT would have been something to see – NEXT on PC’s.
The world might have been better without the MS monoculture, but that’s not the way it turned out.
With a Great product, not just an average product. With innovation, not copycatting. With something people will say they love, and not just saying they got one one of those.
I love my Mac
I believe there was a version of NextStep/OpenStep that ran on Intel hardware. I don’t think it was cheap and required some decent hardware, but it exist.
Feel good news for Apple users, so they can rant about how good the quality of their ultra-expensive machines are. Is ok, everyone makes mistakes and loses money doing it so.
They probably could do it, just not on thier terms. They would have to do something like cease thier hardware control, so that cheap mac hardware could be made. Face it, the majority of PC owners can’t afford an apple system with the same performance as the PC systems they choose. Just look to the streets if you want to see what I’m talking about, most people are driving low to mid cost vehicles, even though the luxury ones work better and look nicer, they can’t afford them.
So, you’re telling me that an eMac is a luxary computer and that Joe and Jane Middleclass can’t afford to pay AUS$1400 for a computer? Please, I have seen destitute students about to scrape together cash to puchase a Mac. You can’t honestly expect me to believe that Joe and Jane Middleclass can’t afford to pay AUS$1400 for a computer.
Btw, Joe and Jane Middleclass purchase their computers from the local retailer, the local reseller sells the same sorts of the computers at around the same price, HP/Compaq are the main computers being sold via these resellers.
the openstep that ran on intel was called… openstep. nexstep was the m68k version.
openstep was one sweet operating system imho. it had a finder almost identical to jaguar’s, an iconizing view more like cde’s and a responsivness that os x didn’t have until panther.
Apple was an innovative company that never got the right product out at the right time for the right reasons. They were first with the Apple-2 but CP/M running on Z-80 hardware became the industry standard for writers and engineers by 1979 (Kaypro-2). The C-64 system had most of the capability of an Apple-2 system for half the money, and the Atari 800 was a vastly superior game machine. When IBM saw CP/M in the hands of top journalists, that became their cue and benchmark for the take-over of the microcomputer industry; they simply waited to see which way the wind was blowing before moving in. IBM will say that the market opportunity was very small, but then they don’t say why they spent hundreds of millions of dollars in product promotion, and hired an army of hand-picked young sales staff specifically to sell PC hardware and software. Apple did have the opportunity to market a 6809 based “cheap mac” running Microware OS-9, which software developers and customers probably would have liked, but Jobs apparently decided wasn’t fancy enough. From what I read, OS-9 level-2 could page 64KB blocks of RAM up to 2MB. If Apple had done focus group testing, they would have found that the IBM-PC looked like, and gave the impression of, a serious business machine, while the Mac looked like a Vectrex game box, a toy with a toy interface.
Yes, Apple only targets a small nice market. But where’s the problem? They make profits and they wouldn’t be able to compete against Dell/Microsoft anyway. See nobody takes Apple serious. Would MS offer their Office suite for Mac if they wouldn’t be sure that Apple is not a threat to their desktop monopoly? The few bugs MS makes by selling Office X wouldn’t be worth it. But they know that Steve will keep the prices high enough to make Macs totally unattractive for the infamous 95% + X computer users.
Sure the “creative market” (whatever that is) was owned by Apple a half decade ago, but slow technological improvements, the forced changeover to OS X, and high prices are forcing these people onto PCs. Just look at 3D modelling… who the hell does that on a Mac anymore? Not Pixar, they use PCs running GNU/Linux now. Their Renderman cluster is all GNU/Linux too. And Steve Jobs is Pixar’s CEO! Clearly something is amiss in the Mac world.
People say that everything music related was done on PCs. I went into two music stores over the weekend, and what did I find? Not only were all the computers in the stores PCs, but the sales people couldn’t even answer basic questions about their products when it comes to Mac, like what devices were OS X compatible. And for good reason too, what music software is available on Mac that isn’t available on PC? The only thing I can think of is Logic 6, and Logic 5.1 and ProTools are both available on PC so who cares? Meanwhile the PC exclusively has things like Sonic Foundry’s SoundForge, ACiD, and Vegas, not to mention things like Goldwave, Cakewalk, and Fruity Loops. If there’s better diversity of software for the PC then for the Mac, then what logical argument is there for not choosing a PC? Clearly there’s no software availability issues.
I’m not saying that *you* can’t use a Mac because you like it, but all of us “PC zealots” are just trying to say that the choice between Mac and PC isn’t a technical one at all, it’s 100% subjective, and more and more people in these Mac entrenched markets are going to realize that if they can just get used to changing over from a Mac to a PC all the software they know and love is still there, and maybe they can save themselves a wad of cash. And this isn’t theoretical speculating either; from what I’ve been seeing people are changing over in these markets and we will only see Apple’s market share continue to be eroded.
5% of the US and 1% of the world seems small, but then again Dell only has a 7% US 2.2% world sales figures. Apple is still either the #2 or #3 (can’t keep it straight with Compaq marrying every other computer maker and their mother out there) supplier of end-machines.
The problem comes that folk compare Apple to Microsoft, but that is hardly the case. Microsoft sells an OS, Apple sells machines. Apple does not compete with Microsoft directly, so comparing the twos market penetration is absurd and only works to fill a self-delusion.
Apple makes as much money as Dell while selling 50% less machines, doesn’t sound like a niche player to me, sounds like a winning player.
The purpose of business is to make money. it is not to drive your competitors out of business, to stifle innovation, to be your customers best friend, it is to make money pure and simple. Everything else is incidental. Apple makes as much as larger firms while selling less units, whatever they are doing seems to be working to me.
Actually NextStep was the version that predated OpenStep. NextStep 2.x was ported early on to the RS/6000 platform, but at about the same time as a release of NextStep 3.0 for Next hardware.
NextStep version 3.1 was released for Intel processors in early ’93. Eventually, NextStep 3.3 ran on Motorola (NeXT), HP PA-RISC, Intel, and SPARC architectures. Binaries could be cross compiled on all platforms. (“Fat binaries”).
OpenStep was an API specification that was “above” the OS level. OpenStep was released for Mach (aka NextStep), Win32 (Win 95, Win 98, Win NT, etc.), and Solaris. Win32 apps compiled using OpenStep “looked” liked Windows apps. The Solaris version of OpenStep was released at the same time the Java language was taking off, and Sun dropped OpenStep shortly thereafter.
If you read the OpenStep spec, you’ll know the father of Cocoa.
Now if you’re going try to seem smart, you may want to get your facts straight.
NeXT did make NeXTSTEP for intel, in fact I have an ISO of it that I’ve been meaning to burn and give a try (3.3 for anyone that’s curious). Ontop of porting NeXTSTEP to intel, there was also a port of Openstep for Windows, so that you could develop and run Openstep applications in windows.
NeXTSTEP was not the m68k version of Openstep, there were versions of NeXTSTEP for intel, sun, their own hardware, and other hardware too. Openstep was the whole framework, and they made an OS based on that framework (based on NeXTSTEP), and they had versions of Openstep for many architectures, and OSes.
Just look at 3D modelling… who the hell does that on a Mac anymore? Not Pixar, they use PCs running GNU/Linux now.
The only thing at Pixar that isn’t clearly OS X already is their rendering cluster, and last I checked it was slated to be replaced with OS X if it hasn’t been already. Stop spreading these kinds of lies; lies only serve to discredit your position.
People say that everything music related was done on PCs.
I think you meant to say Macs, otherwise these supposed “people” are very much misinformed.
I went into two music stores over the weekend, and what did I find? Not only were all the computers in the stores PCs, but the sales people couldn’t even answer basic questions about their products when it comes to Mac, like what devices were OS X compatible.
It doesn’t sound like these “stores” are music studios. A store selling musical instruments will probably use a system running Windows embedded for their POS. I have never seen a music studio that relied solely on PCs, and every one I’ve been in has a maximum of one PC.
And for good reason too, what music software is available on Mac that isn’t available on PC? The only thing I can think of is Logic 6, and Logic 5.1 and ProTools are both available on PC so who cares?
You’re making the brash assumption that PC ports of Mac native applications are as good as their Mac counterparts. Let me assure you that they are not… they can be quite frustrating. Here’s an example (pardon the filename)
http://fails.org/winsux.png
This is a typical Cubase/Reason ReWire setup. Notice the Reason equipment rack floating inside Reason’s parent MDI window. This is due to the restrictive and cumbersome nature of Windows MDI (or really, any non-shared menu MDI) A much less cumbersome setup would allow the menu to act as a toolbar, and by default have it “dock” on the top of the screen.
Meanwhile the PC exclusively has things like Sonic Foundry’s SoundForge, ACiD, and Vegas, not to mention things like Goldwave, Cakewalk, and Fruity Loops.
These are all rather low end applications that no serious professional would consider using (with the possible exceptions of SoundForge and Cakewalk) The same functionality (and then some) is collectively provided by programs like Cubase, ProTools, Logic, and Reason.
If there’s better diversity of software for the PC then for the Mac, then what logical argument is there for not choosing a PC?
The MDI issue as I put forth earlier is a big one. This makes using programs like Logic which have a large number of child windows particularly cumbersome, as you are forced to hand arrange windows within the parent MDI window, and if you want to see two applications at once you have to resize the parent MDI window then rearrange all the child windows within to fit, rather than simply arranging the two child windows of the programs you wish to see simultaneously in such a way that they don’t obscure each other. Furthermore, the parent MDI window will likely obscure the desktop icons, greatly frustrating and hindering those people who use the desktop as a temporary working space for their current project in conjunction with drag ‘n’ drop to quickly assemble various pieces of a project. Due to the high level of integration that can be provided through the ReWire interface and the general need to use multiple pieces of software for audio production, the ability to do this becomes quite important, and Windows MDI makes operating in this manner needlessly difficult.
Why do people assume that for Apple to lower the cost of their systems they would have to license their OS? It’s not that Apple can’t make a cheap system – it’s that they don’t want to (yet….hopefully
“However, [Apple Computers] are pretty expensive.”
Thats odd. I’ve priced many of them and consider them to be comperably priced (often times less expensive than PCs of similar specs). The issue is not that Macs are more expensive… its they are less configureable. Saying that they are more expensive is a misleading statement as it suggests that you can’t get the same product (same specs) on a PC for the same price.
“For about $3500 for a G5 with 1 SATA drive and 512 megs around there anyway, that’s what I can get for going through Apple, but for that price I can build myself a dual-Opteron system, with 1 gb, and a radeon 9800XT, with also 2 250SATA drives, and a Xaser III case(very high end as cases run), that doesn’t include a monitor or speakers.”
First of all, your prices are very out of balance. G5 systems start at $1799.00 and top out at $2,999.00. Second, your comparison is like so many I see. You’re only comparing ram, processor, graphics processor and hard drive… as if these are the only components that come standard in the G5. If you’re going to make a comparison, you’re going to have to match the AMD machine to the G5’s specs. I’ve done this several times and the G5 systems are either the same price (typically for the low end) and always far less expensive (for the high-end).
Yes, PCs allow you to buy less and therefore pay less, but that does not make them less expensive, but rather… more configurable.
Next’s last hardware boxes were actually x86 boxes… sort of. When Next became a software company, they sold the hardware rights to Canon, which actually produced an x86-based machine optimized for NeXTStep. It was a 486DX/100 with Canon-developed graphics hardware.
To the guy who talked about Kaypro and CP/M being “the standard” by 1979 — while you clearly know your history, that’s a highly debatable statement, and I say that as a former CP/M user. It was a business standard, as much as anything was a standard in those days, but in the pre-IBM PC days, Apple sold more of their 8-bit machines than all CP/M vendors combined. In point of fact, the #2 8-bit computer maker before the Commodore 64 was Radio Shack, which didn’t sell any CP/M-based machine until CP/M became an option in 1983 with the release of the TRS-80 Model 4. In sales volume in those days, it was Apple, Radio Shack and, well, everybody else. Apple had no particular reason to look at OS-9 — it was a wonderful system, to be sure, but it had far, far fewer applications for it than Apple DOS. And, yes, that includes business applications. You’re right in that CP/M was the heap in word processing, but in engineering and mathematics software, I think you’ll find the Apple II made its way into a lot more labs — it was eminently customizable and expandable, and it had high-resolution graphics, compared to the TRS-80’s blobs and the text-only display of CP/M machines. (And don’t forget which platform Visicalc started on. The answer isn’t CP/M!)
…and as for the article which engendered this conversation (“From Proud PC Inventor to Niche Player”), to cast it in the most charitable light possible, it’s a reasonable recap of Apple’s history for anyone who’s been living in a cave for the last two decades, but, uh, that’s it. It’s not even attempting to bring any insight or analysis to the picture. This is mostly linked here, one suspects, just because the headline will bring out partisans who will all start posting here about things that have absolutely nothing to do with this article, like, say, everything before this paragraph in this post.
Perhaps you aren’t with the times but Pixar looks like its switching a lot of their machines to OSX. Renderman rocks on the dual G5. Its all they were demo-ing at Siggraph this year.
So, you’re telling me that an eMac is a luxary computer and that Joe and Jane Middleclass can’t afford to pay AUS$1400 for a computer?
eMac is Apple’s equivalent of crap-o-matic ultradubget Duron boxes. However, for the price of eMac, you can have a quite useful and expandable Athlon XP machine. Maybe OS X is nice and dandy, but probably not on *that* kind of machine.
Pixar may be able to move some of their machines to run Mac.
However many shops cannot do this because Mac does not run Softimage and other important CG tools.
Maybe in time all these tools will be ported to Mac, but for today, it’s a Windows/Linux world out there.
And the Opteron is really really good with Windows/Linux. Maybe not the floating point champion that the G5 chip is, but Opteron’s overall performance balance is tops. Which is the big reason is was chosen by Cray as the basis of their new “Red Storm” supercomputers:
http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/10/27/daily4.ht…
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031027S0003
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/33616.html
http://news.com.com/2100-7337_3-5097398.html
While the rest of the apple/PC flamewar is fun, I’ll ignore it, and just say
Ohhhh no they don’t.
The company I work for uses a number of OpenStep applications, and they “look” very none-Win32.
They also crash alot, but I don’t blame OpenStep for that 😉
As to NeXT on intel, you also have GNUStep. Not NeXT, but nextish…
“Perhaps you aren’t with the times but Pixar looks like its switching a lot of their machines to OSX. Renderman rocks on the dual G5. Its all they were demo-ing at Siggraph this year.”
That probably has to do with Steve Jobs being the CEO of both Pixar and Apple.
I think you’re very misinformed.
Pixar started to moved their SGI box out and let the G5 in. Rendrman is porting to OS X already. Linux will be running for all the rendering because it’s cheap and better than Windows.
>>People say that everything music related was done on PCs. I went into two music stores over the weekend, and what did I find? Not only were all the computers in the stores PCs, but the sales people couldn’t even answer basic questions about their products when it comes to Mac, like what devices were OS X compatible. And for good reason too, what music software is available on Mac that isn’t available on PC? The only thing I can think of is Logic 6, and Logic 5.1 and ProTools are both available on PC so who cares? Meanwhile the PC exclusively has things like Sonic Foundry’s SoundForge, ACiD, and Vegas, not to mention things like Goldwave, Cakewalk, and Fruity Loops. If there’s better diversity of software for the PC then for the Mac, then what logical argument is there for not choosing a PC? Clearly there’s no software availability issues. <<
The truth is : anything music related IS making on a Mac. If you go to a music shop that DO NOT show a Mac, that store probably do not know music at all. If you ever go to any professional music studios, MAC is the word. Do you know ProTool’s CEO make a very clear statement that even they make PC version of the software, Protool run best ona Mac. And Logoc and Protools are almost the standard in the music industry, need I say more?
Yeah, you can list me a bunch of software that’s PC centric, but you can easily found a Mac version of it or it’s similars. Don’t fool yourself, please.
>>I’m not saying that *you* can’t use a Mac because you like it, but all of us “PC zealots” are just trying to say that the choice between Mac and PC isn’t a technical one at all, it’s 100% subjective, and more and more people in these Mac entrenched markets are going to realize that if they can just get used to changing over from a Mac to a PC all the software they know and love is still there, and maybe they can save themselves a wad of cash. And this isn’t theoretical speculating either; from what I’ve been seeing people are changing over in these markets and we will only see Apple’s market share continue to be eroded.<<
Are you kidding? The choice between Windows PC and Mac is technical and not subjective. Windows PC and Mac OS represent 2 very different OS, two different ways to work. And with the G5, the cause change even more rapidly. As of now, the Virginia Tech built G5 cluster is the world’s 3rd fastest supercomputer around that cost only 6 million dollars, a lendary tale in supercomputing.
The Apple’s marketshare was reprted up 1% as I heard… your statement is false at the very beginning.
What everybody clearly seems to always forget or ignore…
“In a surprise move, Jobs reached out to arch-enemy Bill Gates to be a partner. Gates, for his part, not only lent the distressed firm some 150 million dollars, but also committed to developing the crucial Microsoft Office software package for the MacIntosh platform. The colorfully designed iMac computers, successful laptop offerings, and portable entertainment devices like the iPod music player have helped Jobs lead Apple out of its crisis state.”
is that Apple’s very existance today is through the kind heart of Bill Gates and Microsoft.
Pixar has move out his SGI nearly two year ago and use(for now) x86 with Linux. Some box still use Windows, some are on Sun hardware and high end compositing computer are still on SGI computer(handle more bandwith for video than any other computer.)
Still Pixar has too some MacOS X box, but it’s only the beginning : Maya on it was a nightmare at the beginning(slow dog), and their tool must be port on it – took time. Pixar Renderman is just the renderer, to model, anim, texture and so on they must have their own tool
As far as I know, since Softimage 3D|4/XSI 3.5/Houdini aren’t port on MacOS X for now, the other are stuck on Linux/SGI(most on Linux for now). Since their pipeline heavily depend on those software and the customised tool written for them, they’re not going to change now.
Most shop in 3D evolve in Linux and Windows and most video shop are still on SGI.
One last example… Weta digital is a pioneer for a lot of thing, but still MacOS X are nearly not use – most computer are under X86/Linux. After that it’s equally Windows(Mirai – Bay Raitt work on Gollum) and Irix.
You can’t honestly expect me to believe that Joe and Jane Middleclass can’t afford to pay AUS$1400 for a computer.
It’s not that they can’t afford it, it’s that the AU$1400 buys them so much more PC. $1400 at Dell gets me a Dimension 2400 with:
2.66Ghz P4
256M RAM
80G Hard disk
DVDRW
17″ CRT
With the added bonus of free delivery and a free wireless keyboard & mouse.
That’s not the cheapest machine there either – they start at under $1000.
The new G5s have made Apple’s top end price/performance pretty good. Everywhere else, it varies from bad to average.
You people make me laugh with all your statements. I can always count on the OSNews boards to put a smile on my face when I learn just how screwed up people get about technology.
It’s not that they can’t afford it, it’s that the AU$1400 buys them so much more PC. $1400 at Dell gets me a Dimension 2400 with:
2.66Ghz P4
256M RAM
80G Hard disk
DVDRW
17″ CRT
I recently purchased a similar system for a little less than US$400, minus the DVD-RW and 17″ CRT, which should only bring the price to ~US$650. Check http://slickdeals.net/ as unless you’re paying enormous excise taxes (US$350?) you should be able to get that system much cheaper.
Sorry for being a bit OT. Yesterday Adobe announced a new version of Framemaker 7.1. Only versions for Windows and Sun were mentioned, no Mac-Version.
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200312/1201…
I mean these morons still don’t have a native MacOS X version of Framemaker.
Greetings from Anton
You can’t honestly expect me to believe that Joe and Jane Middleclass can’t afford to pay AUS$1400 for a computer.
It’s not that they can’t afford it, it’s that the AU$1400 buys them so much more PC. $1400 at Dell gets me a Dimension 2400 with:
2.66Ghz P4
256M RAM
80G Hard disk
DVDRW
17″ CRT
Ok, lets change some stuff around to make it a little fairer:
512KB ON-DIE L2 Cache
Integrated Audio with Sound Blaster @ PRO/16 Compatibility
Integrated Fast Ethernet 10/100
Integrated Intel(R) Extreme Graphics
System Drive CD Kit
Intel(R) 845GV Chipset
This processor has a 533MHz Front Side Bus.
Dell(TM) Media Experience Software
Limited time promotional offer only. No further discounts apply.
Integrated graphics using shared memory, yuck. If it were a setup like the O2, then I wouldn’t mind shared memory, however, how the Intel world does it is plain crapola.
btw, it is really necessary to have a 2.66Ghz when the target audience is very unlikely to use it for anything more than typing emails, letters and the occasional game of solitaire.
Btw, it is a DVD/CD-RW not a DVDRW. That would imply that it was a DVD Rewriteable, which isn’t included.
Windows XP Professiona, Norton Antivirus(TM) 2003 (English), For NAV 2003, Free 90 Days of Live Update for Latest Virus Definitions
Upgraded to Windows XP Professional to make it comparable to MacOS X. Throw on a Firewire PCI card for $60, Works Suite for $60. The grand total: Dell Dimension(TM) 2400 2.8GHz Desktop E-VALUE CODE : J241222 System Total AUD 1,947.00
With the added bonus of free delivery and a free wireless keyboard & mouse.
Why would I care about delivery when I can drive into the local Apple Centre and pick it up? Also, I guess you’ve never used a wireless mouse. I’ve never seen such crappy responsiveness. It is so crappy that you actually see a yo-yo effect where by if you move the mouse quickly, the cursor on the screen catches up to your motions, thus creating a yo-yo effect.
That’s not the cheapest machine there either – they start at under $1000.
And their quality represents it. If you are going to compare it, compare it to a vendor which produces quality Intel based desktops, IBM would be a good example. Dell is mearly another HP/Compaq, same crap, same bugginess, just cheaper.
The new G5s have made Apple’s top end price/performance pretty good. Everywhere else, it varies from bad to average.
Thats odd. I’ve priced many of them and consider them to be comperably priced (often times less expensive than PCs of similar specs). The issue is not that Macs are more expensive… its they are less configureable. Saying that they are more expensive is a misleading statement as it suggests that you can’t get the same product (same specs) on a PC for the same price.
Your argument is nonsensical – “Macs aren’t more expensive, PCs are just cheaper (because they’re more configurable.)”
Added to that, your argument is just plain false unless you’re assigned ridiculously disproportionate values to particular bundled features. Macs have good price/performace if you look at a dual G5, but it’s not very good everywhere else on their product line. $2300AU (cheapest iMac) buys you a heckuva lot more PC than Macintosh.
Macs have good price/performace if you look at a dual G5, but it’s not very good everywhere else on their product line.
The area in which Apple’s pricing doesn’t particularly shine is basically low-end desktops. G5 and (even moreso) laptops are competitively priced.
Actually, I’m still looking for a reasonably priced (< $/€1500) 12″ PC laptop with features comparable to G4 iBook (including a display adapter). I’m getting a new laptop most probably in about a month, so all you “Macs are so fsckin’ expensive” people, I’d be interested in such information, this could be your chance to keep me away from the “expensive” Apple hardware for now.
(The last thing wasn’t specifically targetted at drsmithy).
all the losers who know nothing about computers still frequent these boards…i mean they have to its not like they check all these facts out on other websites is it?
I’m at an ARTS college, here we do graphic design, illustration, Photography, video editing and audio creation (sound and music).
What do they use here?
Macs… imacs, powermacs, emacs.
What do the students bring into schools to help them work? iBooks and PowerBooks.
They have pcs here but if you simply walked past a studio you wouldn’t see one, you’d see the mac first but the pc is there, just not as prominant as the mac.
They also use PC’s alongside the mac’s for internet browsing.
Why is this? Why do students learn on a “niche” or “dying platform” and go out into the creative markets with experience with using Apples mac (and pc’s)?
Because Apple was there first thats why.
As students, we are expected to do any work with whatever Adobe product or macromedia products are to be used and we can use pc’s if we want but once you are out hunting for a job you need experience with Apple macs.
This is not to say Apple have a monopoly on the creative industries, its simply a matter of Apple being there first. Sure you can use Photoshop or Indesign with your pc and go against the tide, remain ignorant. But transfere your work onto a mac and expect your lovely peice of work to look like a toilet. Settings change and what you did on pc will not print properly off the mac, its not the macs fault, its the pc’s, for not conforming and its yours thinking the pc is better equiped. We are not talking processor speed here either, thats useless when you want your work to look proper. There is a reason for macs not being upgradable or as expandable as a PC.
Whatever machine you work on with a mac it will look the same and act the same and this is important to the designers who work with them.
So nevermind Apple not understanding how to gain more marketshare or offer expanability… pc users need to understand that its the mac that will work, first time every time any time.
But more importantly…got there first.
“The only thing I can think of is Logic 6, and Logic 5.1 and ProTools are both available on PC so who cares? Meanwhile the PC exclusively has things like Sonic Foundry’s SoundForge, ACiD, and Vegas, not to mention things like Goldwave, Cakewalk, and Fruity Loops. If there’s better diversity of software for the PC then for the Mac, then what logical argument is there for not choosing a PC? Clearly there’s no software availability issues.”
Do your homework, there are a lot more pro-end music editing programs on OS X and the Mac than Logic and Protools. Quit misleading people.
FrameMaker has never been popular on the Mac and Adobe’s failure to port it tells us nothing about Adobe’s support for Macs. I’ve been a designer for seven years now (including on newspapers) and have never come across Frame in an industrial scenario – it’s always Quark and now some InDesign.
Macs are found in professional graphic design studios – FrameMaker is not. Frame is a perfectly capable program, but it is intended for long document creation and tend to be used in-house by large scale enterprise.
If the Mac should begin to make inroads into enterprise, then you’ll see Frame for OS X tout suite. Until then, not likely. How you extrapolate that “linux is eventually in” in publishing and design is beyond me. It is currently not possible to run a design/publishing business on Linux. Windows yes, but Linux no. This is no reflection on the relative merits of the OSes, just re the lack of relevant software. Remember also that it takes more than Quark and Photoshop – what about the legions of XTensions and Plug-Ins, not to mention apps developed in house for ad management and so on.
For most people here thier mind is made up one way or the other for what ever reason. But what about the general public? Pre Windows 95 there were obvious reasons for buying a Mac (better GUI, more stable, SCSI, etc, etc). The problem was they were drastically more expensive (according to “Triumph of the Nerds they were making like $500 profit per box). People bought cheap PCs despite the obvious short comings (DOS Win 3x – shudder….)
Now Apple has more reasonable prices (on the whole) but what is the compelling reason that would cause the average user to buy one? The average user is not going to buy a G5 or a high end PC for that matter. They probably use MS at work, so buying a Mac would present a learning curve (not to mention different can be scary…) What ever you may believe the current offerings from MS are stable on cheap hardware and that is more than good enough for most people.
I myself would love an Apple (G4 ibook looks good) for the Unix OS, for the asethics – still there are some problems that keep me from taking the leap (limited 90 day free phone support, etc…). So how would you convince your Dad he should buy a Mac when he has Windows box at the office? Until Apple can answer that question they will just be a niche player. Maybe Apple is happy with things that way – if I were a stock holder I wouldn’t be.
“It looks like Mac is out and Linux will eventually be in. Adobe realizes the future is Linux, not OS X.”
This must be one of the dumbest assumptions I’ve seen. Adobe makes no Linux apps but because they no longer make FrameMaker for Mac they now have realized that Linux is the solution??? GEEZ
Back on topic
Apple is a niche player with a substantial influence on the industry. Everybody laughed at the iPod, now everyone is making MP3 players. The iTunes music store was considered a joke, now everyone is rushing to get in on this too. People said that MacOSX was too much or all eye candy, yet you can see Linux and Longhorn looking to integrate a lot of those same “eye candy” elements as well but people will call it something stupid like, ” a monumental triumph in desktop GUI engineering…blah…blah..blah ” Then there are those goobers that say that the G5 is just a PC, you wish. The power supply motherboard, processor, case, chipsets, and OEM video card are NOT standard PC components. The only thing really standard is media drives, memory and HD. The layout isn’t even ATX anything.
I don’t think Apple cares about being #1. People who want a cheap PC can get an eMac for a good price. I think most people just want what everyone else uses. Understandable I suppose but not for me.
Pixar is switching over to G5’s.
Im cant believe how many ppl romp on Apples pricing without really looking into it. You get what you pay for PERIOD. There should be enough of us in this forum old enough to realize that. It doesnt mean you cant save money by settling for less and be happy, but the statement still holds true.
I recently purchased a 17inch powerbook mac for $2500. A buddy of mine romped all over me about how over priced they were and so on. He bought his Dell laptop for $2000 about 6 months or so ago.
A quick look at the specs on both the hardware and the software clearly show you get more for your money with the MAC…not to mention a better OS IMO. His unit had a 15 inch display(the high end one), 60gb hd, 512mb DDR, 1.8 P4, mini PCI 802.11G wireless, cdrw, modem, 10/100 ethernet, weighs about 10 lbs, runs hot and loud, chews through batteries in about 2 hrs n change, and has an overall cheap plastic look and feel to it…..your basic laptop.
My Powerbook was is the July/August model of the 17inch. It has the 17inch 16×9 widescreen display, has 60gb hd, 512 DDR, 1ghz G4 (like AMD the G4 doesnt need crazy mhz to perform well), built in 802.11G, firewire 400/800, 10/100/1000 ethernet, trayless dvd-r, modem, bluetooth 1.1, weighs only 6.8lbs, gets less hot and is virutually silent, battery lasts about 4 to 4.5hrs with near constant use, the unit is ultra slim (only 1 inch thick when closed), has a very nice brushed alluminum appearance to its plastic and the keyboard is backlit by white LEDs.
I pretty much have the Dell beat hands down on hardware, presentation and overall quality. Now how about software….
His Dell came with XP pro and Norton AnitVirus. My OS X includes all of the iLife software (iphoto, imovie, itunes, iDVD) all of which can be used independantly for their specific features or be used together to author and burn your own really cool dvd slideshows or movies. I know XP has a movie maker etc….Ive seen it, its a joke. Im not going to go on comparing the OSs though, I have XP Pro on my desktop PC and it doesnt hold a stick to OS X on a pure feature set basis. From the looks of it, the XP folks will have to wait til the end of 05 or even into 06 to get what OS X has had for over a year.
Im not flaming in either direction, I just want ppl to be fair. You do get what you pay for with a Mac. For the record, I do most of my work on my Powerbook now, I have XP pro on my PC/Gaming rig, and my 2 servers run Gentoo Linux.
“So how would you convince your Dad he should buy a Mac when he has Windows box at the office?”
All the middle-aged guys at my office (and my dad at his office) run Windows. My dad had an iMac at home until it died. Two guys at work (out of the few I discuss computers with) have shown interest in using a Mac at home. Believe me, with the daily support issues we witness with PCs here (Dell running XP Pro), it’s not that hard to want something much nicer at home.
“(limited 90 day free phone support, etc…)” And an included 1 year warranty. Chances are, if someone needs telephone support after 90 days, he/she is going to be the type that’s always calling customer service. I’d guess Apple can’t afford to provide more than 90 days of hand holding per customer. Those types of customers should bear the cost, rather than all customers.
“Your argument is nonsensical – “Macs aren’t more expensive, PCs are just cheaper (because they’re more configurable.)””
Not at all.
“Added to that, your argument is just plain false unless you’re assigned ridiculously disproportionate values to particular bundled features.”
You obviously haven’t made equivalent price comparisons before. When I’ve made price comparisons, they were always using the average price for any particular part as added by any high profile PC OEM (or DIY)
“Macs have good price/performace if you look at a dual G5”
All of the G5s actually… not just the dual G5… and its not just good… its spectacular (more so on the higher end model than on the lower-end one0
“but it’s not very good everywhere else on their product line.”
You may have a point with regard to Apple’s G4-based computers, but the rest of Apple’s product line is very appropriately priced… not always as great as the G5, but typically Apple’s other computers are comperably priced to other major PC OEMs.
“$2300AU (cheapest iMac) buys you a heckuva lot more PC than Macintosh.”
The problem with this statement is that you are almost certinly only comparing processor, hard drive, and graphics processor… as if there is nothing more to the computer. Sure, if you invest all your money into these components for a PC… the PC will be better, *WITH REGARD TO THESE COMPONENTS* but that only proves my point… the PC is more configurable. If you match the PC with the same components that come standard on the iMac, you will come in at a very similar price.
I have a Dell Optiplex, and when I tried putting in a ATI 8500 into the AGP, it simply doesn’t work. Warranty had just expired and when I checked the discussion threads others had similar problems. After a while on hold, Dells support said it would just be cheaper to buy another Dell. So for me to upgrade my Dell, I have to buy another one? What sense is there in buying a configurable system if it can’t be configured.
Well, this gave me time to look into the specs, and the Dell is giving you the cheapest stuff out there and its only when you upgrade do you get anything worthwhile. This pricing difference is pure marketing. By the time you configure your desktop they way you want it, its going to cost you on average $1600 and that is Dells estimate as they publish it in their SEC filings, so don’t flame me. Dell also stated in their filings that their selling margin is low because they are trying to capture market share at the expense of margin. So this means that after Dell has captured the Market, prices will start increasing as well.
Right now, Apple’s pricing looks the sweetest for what you get.
Desktops start at 799 for the eMac, 1299 for the PowerMac G4, 1299 for the iMac and 1799 for the PowerMac G5.
Notebooks start at 799 for the iBook G3 800, 1099 for the iBook G4, 1599 for the Powerbook G4
All these computers come with a nice GPU for their category, not those crippled chipset memory sharing crap on the lowend PC. All Macs also come with a Firewire, USB 2, 802.11g capable, Bluetooth, iLife, OS X with Mail, Calendar, Address book, basic Word compatible word processor, full blown Jukebox (no need to buy an upgrade just to play rip MP3’s!) You don’t need to buy a registry cleaner, a spam filter a pop-up blocker, an intrusion detection system. I don’t need to upgrade to XP Pro to get the better features, OS X is the Pro version and it comes with every Mac. I don’t need to buy MS Office to get a better Mail program and a basic Word Processor.
The when you are comparing notebooks. Chief, its night and day. Apple makes the best designed notebooks hands down, and the less expensive iBooks still are some of the best made and looking notebooks.
The other thing to keep in mind is that Apple’s education and developer pricing is even cheaper! Up to $300 off for for college kids, developers get up to $600 off for their first Mac purchase when they join the developer program!
Integrated graphics using shared memory, yuck. If it were a setup like the O2, then I wouldn’t mind shared memory, however, how the Intel world does it is plain crapola.
It’s not like the Radeon 7500 in the eMac is cutting edge.
And even with 64M of shared memory, it’s still got twice as much VRAM as the eMac and 64M more system RAM.
btw, it is really necessary to have a 2.66Ghz when the target audience is very unlikely to use it for anything more than typing emails, letters and the occasional game of solitaire.
Not at all. I just picked a machine that listed for about $1400.
Btw, it is a DVD/CD-RW not a DVDRW. That would imply that it was a DVD Rewriteable, which isn’t included.
The one I looked at was a DVDRW. I must admit I was surprised myself. The code was J211212 and it’s the one that starts at $1299.
Upgraded to Windows XP Professional to make it comparable to MacOS X.
Unnecessary, particularly for home use.
Throw on a Firewire PCI card for $60, Works Suite for $60. The grand total: Dell Dimension(TM) 2400 2.8GHz Desktop E-VALUE CODE : J241222 System Total AUD 1,947.00
But you’re moving the goalposts to suite yourself by not starting at the cheapest point. Let’s take one of the sub-$1000 models and spice it up a bit:
2.4Ghz Celeron
256M RAM
40G hard disk
DVD/CDRW Combo
Firewire (just to keep you happy)
Same software bundle as the one you quoted.
17″ CRT
$1188.
Not to mention XP on that machine is going to be much faster than OS X with the rather anaemic 128M Apple sticks in the eMac. We could even spend the ~$200 difference on a dedicated video card to make you feel better, although more RAM would probably give a more tangible benefit.
Why would I care about delivery when I can drive into the local Apple Centre and pick it up?
Not everyone has a local Apple Center. Not everyone has a car. Heck, some people are just antisocial.
Mainly I just put that there to stem the typical “HAHA, now you have to pay to have it delivered !” comments.
Also, I guess you’ve never used a wireless mouse.
Several. Dating from one of the first Logitechs.
I’ve never seen such crappy responsiveness. It is so crappy that you actually see a yo-yo effect where by if you move the mouse quickly, the cursor on the screen catches up to your motions, thus creating a yo-yo effect.
I’m sorry your experiences have been so poor. Undoubtedly Apple’s wireless mice have no such problem.
Personally, my biggest complaint about wireless mice has been their weight.
And their quality represents it. If you are going to compare it, compare it to a vendor which produces quality Intel based desktops, IBM would be a good example.
If that’ll make you feel better.
IBM ThinkCentre A30
2.4Ghz Celeron
256M RAM
40G hard disk
DVD/CDRW Combo drive (this actually appears to be in addition to the standard CDROM – IBM’s web configurator isn’t very good).
$1100
You don’t appear to be able to configure a NetVista A30 at the moment, but it appears it would have similar specs for about another $100. They’re certainly well within the same ballpark.
Dell is mearly another HP/Compaq, same crap, same bugginess, just cheaper.
I’ve seen quite a few eMacs and CRT iMacs. They’re not made any better than a Dell. Not to mention Dell is *leagues* ahead of HP and Compaq.
The eMac’s nice – I’ve recommended one to my Aunty. However, the simple fact is, at the end of the day, it’s quite possible to buy a basic, functional, workable, usable PC for quite a bit less than the cheapest Mac. Yep, you might not get Firewire and 10/100 ethernet with that $800 PC, but if you don’t need or want them – or only have $800 to spend – that’s what matters, innit ?
You obviously haven’t made equivalent price comparisons before.
Yes, I have. I just don’t attach disproportionate levels of value to certain features.
When I’ve made price comparisons, they were always using the average price for any particular part as added by any high profile PC OEM (or DIY)
This is because you attach disproportionate levels of value to certain features.
Since nearly any comparison on price puts PCs hundreds of dollars cheaper, the only way to make the Macs competitive is to attach ridiculous dollar values to things like “the experience”.
All of the G5s actually… not just the dual G5… and its not just good… its spectacular (more so on the higher end model than on the lower-end one0
A 1.6Ghz G5 starts at AU$3200, without monitor. Let’s see what’s comparable at Dell:
Precision 360MT
2.6Ghz P4
256M RAM
80G hard disk
Firewire (400 I assume, not that it really matters to most people)
3 year warranty
8x DVD/RW
64M Nvidia Quadro NVS280 (unsure how this compares to the card in the G5)
Gig ethernet
$2300
$900 should buy a fairly good 17″ LCD to go with that.
Or if you go to something less workstationy:
Dimension 8300
3Ghz P4
256M RAM
120G hard disk
128M GeForce 5200
Firewire
DVD/RW
17″ CRT (can’t spec without it)
$2320
Alternatively, a dual 1.8Ghz G5 is $4400. At Dell, as above except:
Precision 450
Dual 2.66Ghz Xeons
512M RAM
120G hard disk (250G is +$338)
$4165
What’s even nicer is Dell will let you buy a dual-capable machine with only one CPU and then upgrade later.
The Dell machines also feature an 8x DVDRW drive (vs 4x) and a three year (vs one year) warranty. Add $450 for Applecare and those Mac prices look a lot less competitive.
You may have a point with regard to Apple’s G4-based computers, […]
In other words, all the machines not aimed at professionals or rich end users.
Even then, you’re wrong – only the top Dual 2Ghz G5 is really competitive, where a marginally better Precision 650 is about $200 more expensive.
Dual 3Ghz Xeon
1G RAM
250G HDD
128M QuadroFX video
8x DVD/RW
Firewire
3 year warranty
$6620
An equivalent Dual 2Ghz G5 w/Applecare comes in at about $6400.
[…] but the rest of Apple’s product line is very appropriately priced… not always as great as the G5, but typically Apple’s other computers are comperably priced to other major PC OEMs.
Comparably, the Dual G5s aren’t too bad. The single G5 isn’t very good. The G4 machines are poor. The laptops are pretty good (depending on what you’re after).
The problem with this statement is that you are almost certinly only comparing processor, hard drive, and graphics processor… as if there is nothing more to the computer. Sure, if you invest all your money into these components for a PC… the PC will be better, *WITH REGARD TO THESE COMPONENTS* but that only proves my point… the PC is more configurable. If you match the PC with the same components that come standard on the iMac, you will come in at a very similar price.
So, as I said, you’re attaching disproportionate value to certain aspects of the Mac. In other words, in your eyes, a comparable configuration is impossible and thus, always more expensive for the PC.
It’s ludicrous to compare a dual G5 to a Xeon. The dual 1.8GHz G5 will have two independent 900MHz FSBs, whereas the Xeons will share a single 400MHz or 533MHz FSB. This means at saturation, each processor has an effective FSB of only 200MHz or 266MHz, and that’s the QDR speed (or natively, 50MHz or 66MHz respectively; truly pathetic when compared to the natively clocked 450MHz or 500MHz FSB on the G5) This is further compounded with the P4’s propensity towards poor performance when it’s memory bandwidth starved. This is the main reason why G5 systems have been thoroughly trashing Xeons (as well as Opterons, although that’s more likely blamed on a half-assed port) in Avid DV Xpress performance.
No Xeon based system can compete with a dual G5 due to the ridiculously bad bus design. The only x86 systems that are comparable to (and often times surpassing) the dual G5 are dual Opteron systems, which use a HyperTransport based bus architecture rather than the Xeon’s pathetic shared bus. Also note that the price difference is AU$235 on a $4400 system, or approximately a 5% discount over the G5. Is that *really* worth it for a rampantly inferior architecture? The performance difference in something like Avid DV Xpress would be along the lines of 50% for these two systems.
Not everything is bus limited.
“2.6Ghz P4 = comparable at Dell”
A 2.6GHz P4 is hardly comparable to a 1.6 G5.
“256M RAM = comparable at Dell”
The G5 gives you twice as much Ram. You’re going to need to increase that
“8x DVD/RW = comparable at Dell”
“$900 should buy a fairly good 17″ from Dell”
Apple’s 17″ LCDs are only $699 and are generally regarded as tops in the industry.
“3Ghz P4 = comparable at Dell”
A 3GHz P4 is hardly comparable to a Dual 1.8 G5.
“256M RAM = comparable at Dell”
The G5 gives you twice as much Ram. You’re going to need to increase that
“120G hard disk = comparable at Dell”
The Dual G5 gives you 160G hard disk… You’ll need to increase that.
After you’ve bumped up your Dell to these specs, you’ll also need to add a 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet, as it comes standard in the G5, 802.11g wireless networking package, Optical digital audio in, optical digital audio out, analog audio in, analog audio out
And lets not forget to find equivilents to each of the following non-free bundled applications:
iPhoto, iMovie iDVD, QuickBooks, Zinio Reader, Art Directors Toolkit, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, GraphicConverter, Sherlock, iSync, Apple Developer Tools.
I think I’ve proven my point… Your PC is more CONFIGURABLE… not less expensive. You can buy less and therefore pay less. Please don’t confuse the issue.
Oops.. take out Sherlock from that software list.
Oh ya… also make sure to add a Firewire 800 port on your Dell too… it comes standard on the G5.
Why all forum posts concerning Mac are always so off topic?
Most of you guys should really get laid as soon as possible!
i recently got an iBook G4 with 640MB RAM, Airport Extreme, 14″ screen and 60GB of hard disk for about €1,700. A dell with the same specs would cost about the same.
A 2.6GHz P4 is hardly comparable to a 1.6 G5
Barefeats’ numbers and non-diddled SPEC results would suggest it is.
Not at everything, of course, but for anyone making an that performance-sensitive a decision, just about everything else is irrelevant anyway.
A 3GHz P4 is hardly comparable to a Dual 1.8 G5
That’s why I compared dual 2.66Ghz Xeons to the dual 1.8Ghz G5.
The G5 gives you twice as much Ram. You’re going to need to increase that
The 1.6Ghz G5 comes with 256M. Only the dual G5s come with 512M, and the machines I compared to them were specced with 512M.
Apple’s 17″ LCDs are only $699 and are generally regarded as tops in the industry.
Great, so that gives you $1600 difference to spend on a pair of even better 17″ LCDs for the Dell.
The Dual G5 gives you 160G hard disk… You’ll need to increase that.
That’s why I gave the price to upgrade to a 250G drive. Upgrading both machines to 250G makes the Mac ~$4630 and the Dell ~$4500.
After you’ve bumped up your Dell to these specs, you’ll also need to add a 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet, as it comes standard in the G5, 802.11g wireless networking package, Optical digital audio in, optical digital audio out, analog audio in, analog audio out
All the Dell machines have gig ethernet.
None of the G5s comes with 802.11g included.
The Dells have analog audio in/out. Optical is a $125 soundcard option away for both of you that want it.
You also conveniently (but unsurprisingly) ignore the things that are better about the Dells, like a 3 year warranty and better video cards.
Oh ya… also make sure to add a Firewire 800 port on your Dell too… it comes standard on the G5.
The prices I quoted are with FW400. FW800, for the other two of you that need it, is a third party $100 PCI card away.
And lets not forget to find equivilents to each of the following non-free bundled applications:
iPhoto, iMovie iDVD, QuickBooks, Zinio Reader, Art Directors Toolkit, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, GraphicConverter, Sherlock, iSync, Apple Developer Tools[/i]
Ignoring for the second that several of those are free and several equivalents come with Windows, that’s a matter of taste to the buyer.
Or you can buy it with Redhat 9.0 and gets loads more software than OS X.
I think I’ve proven my point…
Not even close. Indeed, you’ve proven precisely my point – the single G5 compares poorly and the dual G5s compare fairly well. Remember, you need to add $450 to all those Mac prices to get a comparable warranty.
Your PC is more CONFIGURABLE… not less expensive.
It’s both. An AND, not an OR.
You can buy less and therefore pay less.
Or you can buy a Mac, pay more and get less.
Please don’t confuse the issue.
I’m not. You are, however, by claiming bogus levels of performance, lying about specifications, ignoring important aspects of the alternatives and attaching unknown and disproportionate amounts of value to certain features.
All the various arguments aside, most people do not see the value proposition of Mac. That is why every day Apple loses market share.
Most people buying computers buy on price and Apple costs the buyer up to 500% more than a PC depending on where they are in the world.
There is no reason why Apple couldn’t sell the entry level G5 machine for $999 and still make a reasonable profit.
The dual 2Ghz G5 shouldn’t cost more than $1999.
Apple has got to realize that if they don’t reduce their prices, they are eventually doomed.
PC users insist on macs not being PC’s but then expect to pay PC prices.
A lot of these posts are nonsense. No PC runs MacOSX and people buy Macs BECUASE they are NOT PCs.
Apple still has to work on price but I find it convenient that people ignore the $799 eMac. Granted a $799 PC gives you more horsepower in a more cluttered configuration but this is an AIO system we are talking about here. This machine is far from crippled and runs MacOSX in a nice AIO system which is precisely the reason why people buy it.
I have never heard of someone wanting to save money and thus buy a Mac. Most people who buy Macs do so because they want one and can usually afford any PC under the sun. As Apple’s pricing continues to dip every year this issue will become less relevant like the issue of performance is becoming due to the G5. Don’t discount the eMac as a cheap junk PC, its not. I’ve deployed several and they are fine machines. Just don’t expect them to be Dual processor G5s.
Not sure where you got this article but it misrepresents the facts. The $150 million invested (not lent) in Apple by Microsoft was nothing to a company which had $4 billion in the bank. Their offer of continued support for the platform while a signal of support for the platform was also an attempt to keep the justice department at bay, amove which ultimately did not work.
…pc users would like to think that MS has some sort of control over Apple, as if Apple are still around because of MS.