“The UK government has a ‘level playing field’ policy for use of Open Source Software, but although it is supposed to be considering “OSS solutions alongside proprietary ones in IT procurements”, this does not seem to have produced much in the way of significant deployments or contracts. And who is to blame for this apparent lack of movement? A smoking pistol placed before a Parliamentary Committee last week seemed to implicate that well-known partisan of Open Source Software IBM.” TheRegister reports. And all this while the press is expecting IBM to give a talk at Desktop Linux Consortium’s conference on Monday about Linux on the desktop.
Open Source Not Ready for Desktop, IBM Told UK Government
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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The article’s title is rather provokative. Here is the quote in question:
“In 2002, their view was that Open Source software was not robust enough for use on the desktop. Therefore we would frankly have been irresponsible to have recommended its use. Eighteen months on, software industry has matured, the products have matured and our judgment was that now was the time to run those pilots.”
Its clearly not as inflammatory as the article makes it out to be.
For the record, I’d argue that Linux is ready for *some* people’s desktops. Aside from the usual desktop Linux users (software developers, etc) I think Linux fits the bill for the corporate office market, since its easily managed and its office software is sufficient. And of course, its exactly this market that most of the corporate Linux adoption (Munich, China, South America) has been taking place.
PS> Dreamweaver and Photoshop are not desktop apps. They’re workstation apps. So there’s no point bringing up these sorts of apps in this discussion.
Who will be the next one to admit the truth in saying Linux is not ready? I guess everyone should boycott IBM too not just Redhat this guys are evil and blocking linux from being on every home on the planet.
For those of you not too bright I’m not serious. Don’t yell at IBM and Redhat for stating facts. Just cause your head is in the sand doesn’t mean the problem goes away. Many, Many, Many issues need to be addressed before we tell ppl its okay for the desktop. That being said I use it nearly exclusivly but I’m a IT student, not a hair dresser.
PS> Dreamweaver and Photoshop are not desktop apps. They’re workstation apps. So there’s no point bringing up these sorts of apps in this discussion.
True, however, where is Websphere, Rational, Lotus Notes, Lotus Smart Suite and other numerous software titles that make up IBM’s middleware.
IBM can talk the talk but when it comes to putting that hype into some action, they’re just like Microsoft, all talk and no action.
The day I see a solid commitment by IBM towards Linux will be the day that I see them as a benefit to Linux overall, until then they’re mearly another business jumping on the coat tails hoping to hype up their shareprice.
“For the record, I’d argue that Linux is ready for *some* people’s desktops.”
True enough, but I’ll be thrilled to the gills when the question of “Is Linux ready for the desktop?” is no longer being asked everyday. In the end, it’s a question every individual has to ask themselves although they would be better off asking themselves “Am I ready for Linux? Is Linux just plain too hard for me?” Nothing wrong with some people thinking it’s too difficult to use, but they should decide for themselves. They don’t need Red Hat or IBM or anybody else telling them so.
Anyone have any info on my camera: Panasonic VDR-M30 ? I cannot get it recognized under Linux.
They are simply being honest. If they pushed linux on to the desktop now then it would fail, and you would not get people back if and when it makes it. If they hold off on trying to push linux now and wait for it to be ready, it will stand a chance when that day comes.
The day I see a solid commitment by IBM towards Linux will be the day that I see them as a benefit to Linux overall, until then they’re mearly another business jumping on the coat tails hoping to hype up their shareprice.
IBM has been involved with linux long before you have I’m sure. grep your kernel source sometime.
They have been a tremendous help to OSS and nobody can deny it. Let me know when you foot a 1 billion dollar bill towards linux and then you’d be half way to what IBM has contributed.
Bitterman is absolutely right. IBM has contributed a lot to Linux — they’ve got kernel hackers working on it, they’ve contributed JFS and NGPT, and a bunch of other stuff. IBM is a huge software company with many divisions. They can’t get on the Linux bandwagon 100%, and it wouldn’t be wise of them to do so anyway (too much of a financial gamble). But just because they haven’t ported all of their software to the OS doesn’t mean that they aren’t doing a good job supporting it.
Running on Slashdot right now — kinda related:
http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid…
It seems to me like there’s a rollback of hype going on. Linux is being recognized as an option, and is given the opportunity to compete directly–there are much fewer allowances being made, and that’s a good thing. By many people’s judgments, Linux hasn’t been successful, but that is not an absolute thing.
That having been said, I, though a desktop Linux user, do not really care much about its adoption everywhere. I mainly want one thing: standards compliance by the big software makers. I think more standards=better computing for everyone; in any case, there is no reason a document format or video codec should not be standardized. The RTF spec needs to be extended to let it do the things MS Word and StarOffice can do.
All other questions aside —
How does support for your camera relate to an OS’s place on desktops in the workplace? How does it relate to what ought to be running on the machine of someone who uses the machine to check email, maybe access the web, use a word processor, etc.? Maybe I can make it clearer for you: In many offices, employees sit in front of machines and do limited tasks, and all that matters is that their machine has the software they need to do those tasks. In many of these environments, users are not allowed or _able_ to install anything on the machines in question. What exactly is the relevance of your comment? Please clarify. Or stop being so petty and fishing for ‘points’ in some pathetic game. No one cares.
I’m what passes for the IT manager in the store where I work. I know just a tad more that the rest of the people in the shop (which is hardly anything), so that when there’s a problem, it’s me they want to fix it. This can consist of questions like “Why did I kicked off the net?” or “Why aren’t my emails getting through?”
Is XP ready for the desktop? Well yeah, except an awful lot of people even that’s perplexing. Are they ready for XP? Well…
Would they worse off if they had Linux running on the machines? Maybe, maybe not…To some of them, it couldn’t get anymore complicated. Either way, it’d end up being my problem as usual, and since I’m already not an expert on Windows, it wouldn’t make much difference to me. Rather than rebooting XP, we’d be logging in and out of KDE for most of our problems.
Technically, I think linux is ready for the desktop. You can do just about anything you can do on Windows or Macintosh. Maybe not ALL things, but enough.
It’s not as easy ALL the time, but most of the time it is. And most of the “Joe Users” we know can’t do most things on Windows.
But this is not a Linux vs. Windows Post. My belief on why RedHat and IBM are saying Linux isn’t ready is because they are right. They are right from the Legal perspective. RedHat won’t include (or allow to be included in Fedora) mp3 and dvd playback. SCO is sending bills out left and right. And the EU has voted to approve software patents.
So not only do we have a problem of making the desktop usable, profitable, and popular, but we have to worry about the legal challenges ahead. Of course, this probably isn’t what they meant, but these are the only reasons I could think of as to why they aren’t pushing the desktop.
It’s frustrating because Bluecurve was supposed to be the desktop Linux. Perhaps they are sandbagging while the legal issues are in the way.
IBM is as much in bed with Micro$oft as HP and Dell, so that sort of stance on Linux and OSS in general should be expected. So it seems that Sun after all is the best corporate friend of Linux regardless of all the controversy surrounding it…
While I appreciate your kind and quick response, I’m not searching for any points. I’m trying to get my hardware working on my operating system. Perhaps you cannot relate to my pragmatic point of view. And I’m referring to my home desktop, not a corporate desktop – but thanks for the information. I understand if you are unable to help me find a solution to my problem, but perhaps it would be best if you said nothing if you all you wish to do is flame.
and think that for most people Windows is just fine. Most people here dont understand how hard it is for the average person to do the most remedial tasks. Microsoft has succesfully “dumbed” down their os to an extent that anyone can use it.
For me, I hated windows. In paticular winxp, it was a resource hog, insecure, and didnt give me the customization that I wanted.
Slackware 4evar!!!
http://www.osnews.com/phorum/read.php?f=4&i=3705&t=3705#reply_3705
Dont worry folks, hes not trolling, he asked for help in the fourmns awhile ago.
You might try knoppix, it has amazing hardware recongiztion.
IBM is in bed with MS as much as Dell? That’s why they’re supplying Apple’s first competitive CPU in years? That’s why they’re spending a billion on Linux? That’s why they’re running major Linux ads? They cooperate with MS as every other company in the industry must, but they’re hardly in bed with them.
Right. Why are you posting requests for technical help in a discussion about an article? Gimme a break. You know it has nothing to do with the topic.
It boils down to this, if a Corporation cannot make money with a product it is of no use to them. They will start to distance themselves from it and start promoting a product, in this case software that can do the job. This is why the CEO of Redhat was smart in stating to just use ‘Windows’.
IBM runs Windows on all of it desktops and so does Redhat. They have better ROI using Windows and the stability, applications are so much better.
Linux has no hardware support or support of any value. Just do what the Redhat CEO and IBM are stating to use ‘Windows’. Do not bother with Linux is it on its way out with the rest of the ‘free’ software
Perhaps you should take your trolling elsewhere. If you don’t have any helpful to contribute, perhaps you should reconsider when your mouse is hovering over that submit key. I am not trying to make any sort of point. Perhaps you are used to everyone having an agenda, perhaps fostered by your own cynical outlook, but I have asked a simple question. You don’t have the answer, so get over it, and maybe someone else can offer something productive besides flaming. You know, that whole community around Linux. Fortunately, my interactions with the Linux community has been on much more friendly terms than what you have demonstrated.
>IBM is in bed with MS as much as Dell?
>That’s why they’re supplying Apple’s first competitive CPU in years?
>That’s why they’re spending a billion on Linux?
> They cooperate with MS as every other company in the industry must, but they’re hardly in bed with them.
Yes, IBM invested a billion and something dollars into linux and they ran some linux ads, but it still doesn’t change the reality of the situation. IBM has historically been trying to be everything to everyone trying to cover as many bases as possible including Linux and MS. IBM admitting that Linux and OSS are ready for desktop would most definitely open up the floodgates and most definitely threaten the GIGANTIC Wintel franchise that IBM had going for years. IBM has more to loose from this proposition that to gain.
Aren’t you tired of trolling in every OSX/Linux/BSD thread?
From: http://www.redhat.com/advice/ask_crash.html
Q: Red Hat runs nearly its entire infrastructure on Linux, including on desktop clients. About how many desktop clients do you currently support?
A:
Well let’s see… out of 600 or so Red Hat employees I would say that more than 95% are using a Linux workstation. Yes, I would like that number higher, and at one time in Red Hat’s history it was 99% (we had one machine that we needed for payroll deposits). There have been some unfortunate swings in what should be the OS of choice in Red Hat’s desktops, but thanks to very supportive senior management and the dedication of the IS team we have been able to keep the Dark Side out. There are still a few places where I am forced to keep a Windows machines. Payroll is the biggest one that comes to mind, and some of our specialized accounting wire transfer systems. Believe it or not, our internal sales team is 100% Linux, which I think can definitely help to win customers. All of our laptops are Linux machines, as well the most of the workstations.
Wrawrat,
What really sucks is the copycat naming. (Yeah…please note my IP range.)
I think you were doing a fine job of trolling from your IP range as well.
OK, right. You ask questions related to whether or not Linux is a ‘pro-porno’ operating system, and nude pictures of your girlfriend, in the help forum. Then, when you don’t get answers, you ask off-topic questions here. And when I call you on it, that’s trolling?
As I have said, the topic of this article is Linux and desktop use (both home and corporate have been discussed since the very post to this discussion). As you will have notice, my comment has been reviewed, indicating it has passed the OSNEWS barometer of on-topic-ness. What are you gaining by prolonging this discussion? I’m looking for helping, and you are whinging. Grow up!
Would one need to see it.
Because they both fear Sun’s initiative to promote Linux on the desktop. IBM is in bed with Microsoft, as someone said earlier, that’s why it makes sense to push Windows vs. Linux on the desktop. Sun doesn’t have it’s hands bound, they can go after the desktop full throttle. IBM blinks….
As for RedHat, they must be too clueless to grab the desktop market, and when Sun decided to go after that (ok, Sun, SuSE and Lindows) they realized they dropped the ball, and it’s time to badmouth the desktop-Linux initiatives.
It’s no gain for them, but it sure disrupts the other guys who try to make Linux on the desktop a reality. Good job, IBM and RedHat. And Hashem, I’m glad you work for RedHat. You will surely appreciate to know that your company lost a multi-million deal with a certain big company. Happened a month ago. Do you want to know why? No? OK, have a nice day!
Hashem, about a year ago when I said that Linux is not ready for the desktop, you linched me and called me incompetent, you said I wasn’t able to configure Linux correctly and all that jazz. And now, that RedHat and IBM say this, you just sit there and nod?
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize I was prolonging the discussion. I thought we were prolonging the discussion.
I think that the reason no one has been able to help you with your camera is that it is unsupported. My suggestion at this point would be to call the manufacturer. Since their online documentation says nothing on the subject, and a basic google search turns up nothing useful, I’m guessing they won’t be able to help you. But hey — there’s always hope.
P.S.: If it wasn’t already obvious, the reason I think you’re trolling is because you’ve already brought this issue up in one linux-on-the-desktop discussion as a point about what one cannot do with Linux on the desktop. Things like that get real boring real fast. Sorry if I’m mistaken, but I think it is a generally understandable human reaction to assume that someone who tends to post under a name containing the word ‘troll,’ constantly harps on the same issues, and posts off-topic is in fact trolling. Again — sorry if I’m mistaken.
Well, yes perhaps I do have an inconsiderate tone.. but I am truly looking at this from a purely pragmatic point of view. I am trying to get it to work (and using Fedora), and I figured this is one of the more knowledgable groups around. I still do not think it is (terribly) off topic, and the troll name was given by someone else to me (Great Cthulu?). But anyway, I suppose that is the next step – to call the manufacturer.
I personally do not think linux is ready for the desktop. If it was you would not have companys like Redhat and IBM stating that it was not. Basically, linux failed to achieve what Windows has, ease of use, applications and a strong user base. If one of these is lacking then, it fails. For the mean time, linux needs serious underpinning work, then maybe in 5-10 years it might be ready.
Yeah. Sorry I lost my temper.
It’s been a long day — involving the horrible disappointment of seeing the new Matrix movie. Ah well.
I’m off to bed.
I personally think is quite ready for the desktop, corporate desktop anyway. At the present time it is more than good enough for 90% of typical office work (email, word processing, spreadsheets, email, etc.). Sun positioning of Linux with project Mad Hatter seems to be right on the spot — targeted at call centers and offices with well defined set of tasks. May be thowing a blanket statement that Linux is ready for every desktop would be a bit optimistic, but claiming that Linux is NOT ready for any desktop is simply denying the obvious truth.
OSNews has posted over 2000 articles in the past year. I have absolutely no clue which one you’re talking about. Can you be more specific?
Most likely, it wasn’t a disagreement on general principles, but specifics. A lot of times people give really poor reasons for why Linux is not ready for the desktop, instead of valid ones. You most likely brought up some invalid reasons for the non-suitibility. IMO, there are only a few valid reasons for non-suitibility at this point:
1) Ease of configuration. The RedHat tools are easy enough for most people, and have coverage for 90% of what most users need. But work still needs to be done on making more complicated things easier for intermediate users.
2) Application support. If you need Dreamweaver, and Linux won’t run it, its not very helpful to you. In general, many Linux apps (and the GUIs — KDE moreso than GNOME) and more features.
3) Technical support. I won’t recommend a home user to use Linux until its much more widespread (probably through corporate use). By that time, your won’t have to pretend you’re running Windows when getting the cable internet guy to fix their end of the connection.
Vendors who use Linux as a business strategy need to develop a software layer that they can commercialize.
As far as I am aware, its hard to tout Munich as a win. They have had to load windows on their workstations under VMware, which costs rather more in licensing and costs than running windows native.
The reality is that Linux probably is ready for the desktop, DEPENDING upon what is expected. Thats what is the key. Its not wether its ready for all desktops. Many desktop requirements are different. Best tool for the job rather than blind advocacy.
AdmV
It most certainly is a win. They needed Windows in VMWare for a lot of custom apps that haven’t been ported. But they still migrated to Linux because they saw benifets in it. Even though it cost them more up front, they did it because they believed it was a good long-term investment. That’s a *damn* good win.
With a product the vendor should be listened to, if he says it’s not time, than it isn’t time, but with a platform, you should make your own choice, however if you choose a platform rather than a product than you have to take on the responsibility of learning, you have to accept that you want to learn. Now perhaps Linux can be both a platform and a product and maybe it can achieve the best of both worlds.
So Red Hat says Linux isn’t ready for the desktop and all the we jump out of our caves saying, “You see…you see…Linux isn’t ready for the desktop”
Apple says the G5 is the fastest desktop computer on the planet. And the we jubilate, “Yay…we have the fastest desktop on the planet”
Microsoft says Longhorn is going to be most innovative operating system of the planet, even though they just began to write WinFS two months ago. Again, we jump out of the toilet, “Longhorn rocks. Longhorn is innovative. etc”
IBM says Linux is not there yet, again we fall into their snares.
When will we stop being slaves to the media and entertainment to Big Business? When will we start saying, “Screw you IBM, Apple, SUN, Red Hat, SUSE, etc” Their only purpose is to milk you dry. They don’t have your interest at heart.
Yet when say anything we get hypnothized and excited like a dog those when it sees its’ master. It’s like a master telling a slave, “The key to your freedom is harmful”. And the slave responding, “But of course it is. I must stay as far away from it as I can”. You may remain in the Matrix, or you may free yourself.
Yeah, you may mod me down now. Thank you.
look at the posted date though, this was some 4months ago, obviously they feel linux matured enough since then and is willing to admit that in this recent conference.
CooCooCaChoo (IP: 130.94.107.—) – Posted on 2003-11-08 09:00:20 is not my IP range. Here is a note for moderators:
I ONLY POST FROM *.CIT.ACT.EDU.AU AND *.CBA.IPRIMUS.COM.AU RANGES, EVERYTHING ELSE IS NOT MINE, AUTOMATICALLY DELETE THEM AS THEY APPEAR.
That’s the newest troll. He impersonates a lot of people. I wonder why he isn’t banned in some way yet. I wish there was a registration system here so something like that wouldn’t happen. :/
That’s the newest troll. He impersonates a lot of people. I wonder why he isn’t banned in some way yet. I wish there was a registration system here so something like that wouldn’t happen. :/
Unfortunately people have been demanding a registration system for atleast 2 years and the site owners refuse to put it in place. If the moderators whine about trolls, they only have themselves to blame for not taking the necessary preventative actions required.
From my observations as a technician who helps people with their computers on a day-to-day basis…”Joe User” isn’t ready to interact with ANY computer operating system/user interface, period. The comments in this forum come from people who have at least a modicum of computer understanding – the observations and criticisms of OS A versus OS B, with regard to the “Joe User” perspective are skewed – we know what we’re looking at, to “Joe User” it’s all just confusing “computer stuff”. “Joe User” has yet to see that a whole hell of a lot of programs provide Edit > Copy, Edit > Paste. “Joe User” is completely mystified by the installation process…not matter HOW easy it is – “Joe User” is not prepared to install ANY OS. Look, I’m just saying maybe “Joe User” should be given a rest, because all of us here are far too advanced to look at issues from his perspective any longer.
“Joe User” is not ready to understand the complexity of having to install/configure/troubleshoots multiple toolkits.
“Joe User” is not ready to get his binary application from RH7.2 to find it does not work on 8.0/9.0 (not available anymore) unless he starts a one to two year intensive study of computers just to “get at least the basic concepts” which are involved in such operation.
“Joe User” is ready to get it’s bloody application from one distro and installing it on another version of the same distro (it should be possible even to different distros for god’s sake) like when he installs a Win95 application on another windows version; Win98/WinMe/WinNT/Win2k/WinXP
What’s holding Linux is not realising this.
I couldn’t agree more Some Buddy,
“Joe User” is ready to get it’s bloody application from one distro and installing it on another version of the same distro (it should be possible even to different distros for god’s sake) like when he installs a Win95 application on another windows version; Win98/WinMe/WinNT/Win2k/WinXP
That doesn’t even address the first issue and that is the fact that Joe User can’t even get the application they want!
If the box said, “Requires Red Hat Version 9”, then atleast the user can then decide whether to buy it or not, based on whether he has that particular operating system.
I’ve seen Linux software and believe me, Joe User isn’t going to know whether his Libc is 2.2 or greater or whether his Linux kernel is 2.2 or greater.
First thing first, let’s say that there are
Joe User Level 1 (Grandpa)
Joe User Level 2 (Brother in Law)
Joe User Level 3 (Friend Not Geek)
I’m talking about Joe User Level 3
At this level Joe User knows:
What an application is
What the OS is
The basics about how install applications
Minimal troubleshooting
>> I’ve seen Linux software and believe me, Joe User isn’t
>> going to know whether his Libc is 2.2 or greater or
>> whether his Linux kernel is 2.2 or greater.
All of what I say applies to “Joe User Level 3”
(I personally think that “Joe User Level 3” is the user group who drives computer adoption)
All I said applies to “Joe User Level 3”
Joe User Level 3 does not like Linux because it’s lack of consistency.
(Note most of the trolls here are “Joe User Level 3”)
In the business sector, how many people don`t work with “locked down w2k computers” just to run sertian apps that are on a terminal server etc. This is were we need to get linux in. And also to businesses who just need some apps like web,e-mail and some other support/database tool.
If Linux can get in to this marked, and that can`t be hard?
More people will be likely to use linux @ home.
The more general linux needs to do: one “standardlike” deb/rpm system. Novell would also bring some nice tools for linux. Samba is nice, we se more and more tools for Linux beeing better than when run on Windows. But to many IT-departments that don`t know shit about ANY IT, therefore Linux needs to be more easy for em. I say GUI for the masses. And I can stick to Slack/Debian.
osnews is being visited by too many crap pseudo techies, aka os cheerleaders…as well as completely-non-technical trolls.
…and not enough os hackers.
there are guys/gals out there, using various operating systems, who know-their-stuff.
most i’ve met in person….and strangely enough, usually the most talented ones, were least likely to flame another operating system or it’s users.
-typing this from mozilla on xp, was installing debian last night on a 2u server, cut my teeth in 1993 on a Quadra 950, dinked around on an atari400 in 1983
“I’ve seen Linux software and believe me, Joe User isn’t going to know whether his Libc is 2.2 or greater or whether his Linux kernel is 2.2 or greater.”
This is this part of the difficulty in the Windows vs Linux discussions. Joe User is just as unlikely to know what c:windowssystem32 (or c:winntsystem32) is for, what Service Pack he has, how to run fixmbr, etc., than he is his libc or kernel version. Most Joe Users have a hard time understanding a program from a document, a shortcut (or link, hard or soft, your choice) from its actual target, regardless of the OS or interface. It’s not a Linux/Windows/OS X/FreeBSD/BeOS issue, it’s a people issue. It’s about being realistic about what Joe User is capable of. In other words, Joe User – in ANY OS environment – should leave installation and configuration to someone who knows what they’re doing. Until AI is a major factor in computing (and the PC as we know it is no more), the vast majority of humanity needs someone to set up their box for them, their apps for them and fix their box when it breaks.
A Linux box, installed and pre-configured by someone who knows what they are doing, can, in fact, be every bit as useful for Joe User as an XP or OS X box. They key is in anticipating the ordinary user’s needs and making sure that everything is rolled toward that end.
At the same time, Joe User, left to his own devices, can go to Best Buy, grab a brand new XP machine, go home, plug it in and start messing with it and have it totally screwed within a half hour’s time. I’ve seen it. Many times.
I’m not saying one is better than the other. A well configured and secured XP machine can be a very good thing.
I guess the main thrust of my comments today come from these type of trolls:
1. Story on Windows vulnerabilities/Microsoft questionable moves (WPA/DRM/etc.) – reaction: “See! Joe User is a fool for running Windows!”
2. Story on “Linux is/isn’t ready for the desktop” – reaction: “I’ve always said it’s ready and Joe User is a fool for running Windows!” or “See! Linux is crap, get a life like Joe User and run Windows!(My digital camera won’t work under Linux…)”
3. Story on any other OS – reaction: “Why be an idiot? Get with everyone else and use Windows” or “Why be an idiot? Linux is the future”.
I read OS News because I’m interested in operating systems in general. It provides interesting articles and _mostly_ intelligent, adult discussion.
Infantile trolls should find forums more geared toward toward infantile rants.
Some Buddy is right about most computer users. My sister is studying for a B.S. degree in E-Commerce. Some of the courses are about computers. I am constantly helping her either fix her computer or trying to help her understand computer concepts. Her only experience with OSes is Win98 and Win2000. She mostly uses her computer for school work. I have had to teach her how to use the Windows Update, how to copy files onto a floppy disk and CD, and other tasks that may seem simple. I have had co-workers and customers ask me questions about how to use their computers. What seems like a simple task is not so simple when you do not know how to accomplish the task. Sending email seems simple, but some people do not know what email is.
Computers are complex devices. Look at some of the tasks people do with their computers. Email, web surf, photo editing, playing music, watching videos, creating documents, programming, playing games, and much more. Name one other device that does so many things but has an user friendly interface? Are all-in-one remote control devices user friendly? How about those PDA/camera/cell phones?
Since the time I started using and experimenting with computers {Vic-20 and DOS 2.x}, computers have become more powerful and to some extent more complex. I think it will be a while yet before the computer is as simple to use as the basic telephone.
Infantile trolls should find forums more geared toward toward infantile rants.
You forgot the link: http://www.slashdot.org
I highly doubt that the majority of computer users are “Joe User Level 3.” For every guy who knows what an OS is, there are a dozen, that think “Word” is their OS.
Linux need some standerds, it is just dumb to have 120+ distro that install 1 prog. in 120+ places (ok not that much) we need a better instll proccess we need 1 more like windows. (yes, I said windows, but that is the only other os I ever used & I liked the way it did it) but I geuss the open source guys are to lazy to do a standerd install proccess. Cut compiling out, we shouldn’t have to compile something unless we write it. The installer should let us pick options, & it should see what hardware we have, then configure it self to use that.
See, this is a potential advantage of Linux on the desktop, at least from my perspective. If I could manage to get Linux onto my grandfather’s computer, it would be SO much more difficult for him to mess it up, and I’d probably spend at least 40 less hours a year fixing his machine…
It’s all a matter of not giving them root…
I’m not searching for any points. I’m trying to get my hardware working on my operating system.
If so, then why don’t you go and visit some specialize Linux hardware and/or video web site? Or go read the newsgroups?
This is not a Linux site, and if you’ve read any of these discussion threads before, you know that there is a lot of debate and advocacy. Coming in and asking an off-topic question about hardware that allegedly doesn’t work with Linux in a “is Linux ready for the Desktop” thread can – and should be – considered a troll. Especially since it’s not the first time you ask such a question on one of these threads.
So, if you really want to get your camera working, I suggest that you go and visit some relevant web site. If you can’t get it to work at all, then you have two options: a) get a new camera, checking out if it works under Linux first or b) wait until the camera is supported.
In the meantime, you just look like someone who wants to highlight a specific lack of hardware support in order to support the opinion that Linux isn’t ready for the Desktop.
And now, that RedHat and IBM say this, you just sit there and nod?
Except that this is not what RedHat and IBM are saying. Read the actual articles, not just the provocative headlines…
If you need Dreamweaver, and Linux won’t run it, its not very helpful to you.
BTW, you can now run Dreamweaver under Linux with Crossover Office.
By that time, your won’t have to pretend you’re running Windows when getting the cable internet guy to fix their end of the connection.
LOL! I’ve had that so many times. I love the part where the guy asks me “can you restart your computer” and I type “/etc/init.d/network restart” and say, “okay, done.” The amazing thing is that, you’re right, the proble is always on their end. I’ve actually helped them find some structural problem somewhere in their network! I just wish they would give me a “knowledgeable user” phone number I could dial, instead of making me go through the entry-level customer service every time…
In the meantime, you just look like someone who wants to highlight a specific lack of hardware support in order to support the opinion that Linux isn’t ready for the Desktop.
That’s nice. See, I don’t care that you are offended because OMG one piece of hardware does not work on this operating system. Perhaps to you, this is a stunning blow, a life altering matter. But to me, it is a question I’m going to ask in a thread about Linux desktop usage. Surely someday you will recover from this shock, and somehow be able to move on after the grieving, but for now – I guess you will just have to settle for being wrong. I have received probably 5-10 flames for this question, and only one person actually offering any constructive ideas (after flaming of course). Haven’t you heard, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all?” This is one of the reason I had not attempted to switch in the past. Helpful folks like yourself.
Yeah, I agree.
If open source isn’t ready for the desktop its not because open source isn’t technically capable. Its because users are not well educated or able to learn *nix. That is no fault of open source software. Its the fault of your government or you personally, if anything.
btw, learning anything is EASY! If you think its hard you are preventing yourself from learning. It was built by people for people, so people should be able to learn it rather easily. People are, afterall, 99.9% identical.
People are just lazy. They’re too distracted with “life” to explore something new.
Sorry, I hadn’t read the rest of the thread when I answered you. After reading your other posts, you seem like you’re legit – there’s been so many anti-Linux trolls in the past week that I thought you were one of them. Please accept my apologies.
Regarding your problem, though, I still think there are probably better place to ask about it, i.e. distro forums, Linux A/V sites. Is it USB or FireWire? FireWire support is still buggy as of kernel 2.4, it’s a little bit better in 2.6 but there’s a chance it won’t work with the new kernel as well. If it’s USB, you should be able to mount in once it’s connect (you can see if it appears in the USB tree with the command usbview).
Again, sorry for the knee-jerk reaction – blame the real trolls who are polluting these threads.
Why don’t you just give it a rest? If you feel you need to use other people’s nicknames to make your point, then perhaps it’s because your point is not worth making in the first place…
It’s also a question of right brain vs. left brain. Math wizards (which probably most of you are), no doubt, think this is a breeze, but if one’s forte is creative writing, history, psychology, political science…it’s twice as ugly a task ie. my favorite part of “Unix for Dummies” is the history of Unix and BSD section. They start talking about common commands, it might as well be written in Sanskrit.
Joe User Level?
Well, I posted a serious response to your questions before seeing your response (seems we posted at the same time). (I’ll recommend my own comment for moderation down.)
The camera connects via USB. I posted the error message in the forums. I had hoped it would work because Windows recognizes it (but only after a driver installation) as a DVD-RAM mass storage device. And I wasn’t aware of the command usbview, I’ll try that later today (thanks).
Looks like you were firing back as I was apologizing…again, blame it on such idiots as the name-stealing troll. He’s put me in a bad mood…
I am sorry if I came across ‘snippy’ to you. If you have any linux questions ask away…
🙂
For those interested, I have a static IP (—.205-131-66.mc.videotron.ca). So don’t accept any cheap substitutes.
So, the name-stealing troll has switched from CooCooCaChoo to me (check the IP address)…perhaps, just perhaps, he should rather, I don’t know, get a life? Or perhaps he just lacks the imagination to come up with his own nick…
The article source is from ‘The Register’ in which it is completely biased towards linux. It is no different from slashdot in the way they discredit MS on everything. IBM is not going anywhere with desktop linux, if so why would Redhat pull the plug on selling Redhat (desktop) linux? This is more hype than actual supporting. They could easily throw OS/2 in the heap with the conference.
1. Ask if anyone is using it on the desktop.
2. If the answer is yes, then it’s ready for the desktop.
I don’t care if it’s windows, linux, aros, beos or anything else. If it’s being used on the desktop, then the answer to whether it can be used on the desktop is yes. If one wanted to argue whether an OS is ready for a specific use, or for particular individuals or groups of users, then that might be a valid argument. But otherwise the term is so broad that it effectivly means nothing, and leads to everyone in these discussions arguing over compleatly different things.
Are you comfortable with compiling your own kernel? I poked around a little and didn’t see anything promising for your camera in kernel configuration, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t something there. Maybe play around with the USB mass storage or media device options. I can’t really get far with it since I don’t have the camera to test stuff out with.
IBM is not going anywhere with desktop linux
Actually, if you read the article instead of trolling, you would have seen that IBM now thinks that it’s ready – the events referred to in the article took place 18 months ago.
if so why would Redhat pull the plug on selling Redhat (desktop) linux?
Please stop smoking crack. RedHat isn’t stopping to sell their distro, and it has all the latest desktop apps in it. Also, if you’d read the ZDNet article about what the RedHat CEO said) you’d see that he actually said that Linux is more than ready for the desktop.
RedHat _is_ discontinuing the _desktop_ version of their distro; all they’ll be selling now is the enterprise version, for multiple hundreds of dollars minimum. That’s what the Fedora project is for/about. (http://fedora.redhat.com) RedHat 9 was the last non-enterprise desktop release. As of next year (April, is it?), RedHat will discontinue support for RH9.
Also, their CEO didn’t exactly say that Linux is more than ready for the desktop. Certainly not the home desktop. What he said was that it is ready for some of the enterprise desktop market, and still needs more development before it will be ready for home desktop use.
Yes, I am. But I don’t think that it will help, unfortunately. I have a USB mass storage flash card that works fine.
RedHat _is_ discontinuing the _desktop_ version of their distro
There will still be KDE and GNOME included, right? So you can still use it as a desktop, for an example within a business.
Also, their CEO didn’t exactly say that Linux is more than ready for the desktop. Certainly not the home desktop.
My point is that it’s innacurate to say that the RedHat CEO said that Linux is not ready for “the desktop” as a whole, when he was specifically referring to a subset of the home market – while at the same time saying that they were more than ready for the enterprise desktop. So if an anonymous troll can claim that he said that Linux isn’t ready for the desktop without making that important distinction, why should I make the distinction myself?
Saying that the RedHat CEO claimed that “Linux is not ready for the desktop” is as valid (or misleading) as saying he claimed that “Linux is ready for the desktop.”
Fair enough on the point about the RedHat CEO.
Yes, KDE and Gnome will be included (as far as I know), and I’m sure it will get used on the desktop in some businesses; but jeeze, it seems a bit pricey for a desktop OS. On the other hand, there’s so much free-of-charge software available for it, so I suppose it isn’t too much of a stretch.
BS
If it’s fairly new hardware, then it probably won’t be supported for a while. Probably the one serious disappointment I’ve personally experienced with Linux was when I couldn’t get my mother’s new Olympus digital camera to work with my laptop. The camera had just been released. It’s probably supported by now, but I needed it to work then for a road trip, so its long-term support status didn’t really help me much at the time.
I know this may sound silly, but it would really be good if you’d call or write the manufacturer a letter and let them know that you want their products to be supported under Linux, you’re disappointed your camera isn’t supported, etc. Many people think it doesn’t make a difference, but if enough people do it, it WILL matter. Companies care about what their customers want. Who would have thought that major graphics card vendors would release Linux drivers, or that Linux versions of mainstream games would ever be released by the makers of the games?
On the previous commment you stated: ‘RedHat _is_ discontinuing the _desktop_ version of their distro
There will still be KDE and GNOME included, right? So you can still use it as a desktop, for an example within a business.
Also, their CEO didn’t exactly say that Linux is more than ready for the desktop. Certainly not the home desktop.
This makes no sense to me, what does support for KDE and GNOME mean when the main part of the operating system is NOT going to be updated by Redhat any longer. So basically, you are trusting the ‘community’ at large to provide you with updates to a Enterprise? That it is out of control, this is a hackers dream, yes download some patch from who knows where because it is ‘free’. I do not understand your logic nor would anybody over an IT Department.
Also, you stated ‘ their CEO didn’t exactly say that Linux is more than ready for the desktop. Certainly not the home desktop’. This again sounds more bait and switch. The CEO stated to just use ‘Windows’ on the desktop. Plain and simple….
NO Enterprise or Business would want to deploy and operating system with no support. It would be expensive and not including all the time spent, plus money on a new desktop solution.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5104650.html
what the hell is this about then ??
The start of the article:
‘IBM’s other Linux shoe could drop Monday, as Big Blue is expected to endorse the idea of Linux on desktop computers at a conference.’
It does not state they will be pushing a solution for desktop linux, it states an ‘idea’. Meanwhile, it will be a hard sell since Redhat came out and said what they did. IBM was stung a long time ago with OS/2, they are not going to repeat that again. The article is about linux on the desktop such as in the Enterprise as a ‘idea’ nothing more nothing less.
“NO Enterprise or Business would want to deploy and operating system with no support. It would be expensive and not including all the time spent, plus money on a new desktop solution.”
No doubt true, which makes me wonder how an operating system can be ready for the corporate desktop BEFORE it’s ready for the home desktop. After all, at the office you MUST get things done, otherwise the company loses money, productivity, etc. Whereas at home, if you can’t send an email or order that new CD over Amazon.com because the confuser is having a bad day, it’s not the end of the world.
The trio of worms we had awhile back is a good example. Home users were annoyed, maybe pissed off, but businesses lost much more. Unless you work from home, you can survive without a computer. If all else fails on your home computer, there’s always the library or an internet cafe. But try telling that to your boss.
Yes, the worms a while could have been prevented IF the users had updated their operating systems with the patch. I work in the Enterprise and we did not have a single machine affected by this. There will always be hackers writing code to cause problems, no matter what operating system you are running. The first viruses were written for Unix several years ago. This was before Windows was ever around.
The main problem with open source is you are ‘trusting’ code written by who knows who. This is not very logical, just like the recent 2.6 linux kernel where someone planted a backdoor in the code. Who knows how many more back doors have been planted in open source applications. Thats right no one knows, so as far as updating operating systems it is better to have system updates from the producer NOT the community at large. Such as for example, MS, Redhat ect…
Anonymous,
Fedora isn’t going to be supported by RedHat, but the enterprise version of RedHat will be, and updates that businesses with RedHat support contracts download will be coming from RedHat. They aren’t dropping support for “the main part of the operating system.” They’re dropping support for the home desktop version of the operating system, and fully supporting the enterprise version.
Paul,
An OS can be ready for the business desktop but not for the home desktop in the following way:
In a business evironment, the OS must be stable, able to perform certain specific tasks well, relatively secure, and easy to administer. On the home desktop, requirements for the OS are different: it must be able to deal with devices that most businesses will never need to connect to any of their desktop machines, for example. So if an OS can do what businesses need desktop machines for very well, but doesn’t have support for every last webcam/mp3 player/shareware application on the web, it may be ready for the business desktop but not for the home desktop. This is because stability, security, and the need to perform a small number of specified tasks very well aren’t the requirements of a home desktop system for most users; they are, however, exactly what a business wants.
I think this is the situation today as far as Linux is concerned. Properly administered Linux desktops WILL do what needs to get done reliably and with very few problems, assuming that what they need to do is fairly narrowly defined.
I hope they invest in a new package managment system. I hate RPMS!
“The main problem with open source is you are ‘trusting’ code written by who knows who.”
So you trust M$? Do you even know the induvduals who actually wrote each component of the newest Windows. Heck why is it even important who wrote it, try and sue M$ for their crappy software. LOL EULA OWNS YOU!
There is a big difference in an IT Professional that is paid for his work and is ACCOUNTABLE for his actions and coding. Now on the other hand someone writing code in China for example, no one knows about his work, his quality or anything else. For you all know he is planting a backdoor in the application, operating system utility ect…
Thus, there is NO comparison between a paid Professional and some would be programmer who ordered a book off the internet or someone who read some man pages…
“There is a big difference in an IT Professional that is paid for his work and is ACCOUNTABLE for his actions and coding.”
Alright say your comapany lost 1million because of a virus. The progammer who made the mistake was fired and you of course get no money back because the corp responsible for the software is not liable because you agreed to an unfair EULA.
Are you still satisfed?
Hopefully it will be something that is adopted by all comercial distro’s and works with all distro’s. Then agian I highly doubt it. Linux needs a packaging system that can install across systems no matter who put it togetheir and does so easily without resorting to reading man pages or hacking spec files. Also Linux distro’s need to stop changing around directories for installations like RedHat and SuSE have done in the past. This breaks so many things it’s not even funny. If all distro’s could agree on a standard directory structure along with standard ways of implamenting menu installation of installed applications, and standard areas to install applications, this would go a long way in helping to create a standard package that works across comercial/non-comercial Linux systems. This is one of the reasons why Linux is not ready for the desktop. The average user has to hunt down rpm’s that are A.) Built for his/her distro B.) Then make sure that they are for the same version of the distro they are using. All this makes it a giant pain in the butt ! This especially true when you have to upgrade or if you decide to stick with an older version of a distro like RedHat. If packages were distro compatable and backwards compatiable to a large degree this would go towards making life easier for Linux users. While programs like apt, yum and urpmi help out alot you still need to find stable and reliable repositories and make sure that their maintianers don’t leave you high and dry like TexStar left the MDK community. As it is now from what I have heard there is no one providing quality rpm’s for MDK that can be depended on to have the quality and update-ablity of TexStar’s packages and repository.
Howdy
Well i think people are quite confused about linux or GNU/Linux .. linux is the core and KDE/Gnome etc are the actual desktops (well close enough).
We really just need to concentrate on core functionality that will let us compete with M$ on the usability level pure and simple!
Distributions are WAY to loaded with fluff apps and really they should choose say the best 2 and offer the others on another CD or for download, there is nothing more anoying then seeing 30 to 40 apps sitting there that are crap, makes no sense to include these for no good reason.
If we can get KDE/Gnome etc better then we`ll have a winner on not only Linux but on the BSDs aswell !!
Please before you all flame me, desktops should cater for the lowest common denominator aka a windows user :p
For starters how is the EULA unfair you have the option to decline the agreement. Second, I guess it would be better to have the Enterprise breached and have sensetive personal data exploited. Third, if the end user of the software is keeping their systems up to date with the current patches and their firewall ect is secure.
Lastly, that is an open ended question, the code is still written by Professionals and supported by an Organization that is providing the service updates. Your theory is flawed, along with the theory of open source code is more secure. Someone planted a backdoor in the kernel version 2.6 this past week. So in closing, NO one knows of how many backdoors are planted in open source software, it is impossible to say there are not any. The code is written all over the place, and everyone’s intentions are not good.
“Thus, there is NO comparison between a paid Professional and some would be programmer who ordered a book off the internet or someone who read some man pages…”
Really now, this is an unrealistic viewpoint. Open Source programmers are no less talented or dedicated than “Professionals”.t would be one thing if Open Source software was only used by obscure geeks, but that fact that Open Source is used not only by major corporations but even federal governments should give an indication of its reliability.
Microsoft hires from the best schools and offers respectable wages, and we still get half baked software from them. Just look at the trials Windows 3.1 and 95 went through. And now, we have security alerts on at least a weekly if not daily basis. How can this be? These are professionals who work ungodly hours, but you can’t really tell.
And I don’t have to worry about backdoors as much as I have to worry about Bill’s DRM.
All the applications that you stated are ‘fluff’ in linux could contain backdoors to the operating system. Second, the code that is written is not like the code written in a Commercial structured environment. I find it amazing how someone would trust system code off the internet or just because it is open source. A corporation that develops software is using principles, guidelines, and so on.
Third, the support in the ‘free’ apps such as included in linux are based off user groups (I am refering to home versions). From the Enterprise level perspective, I would fire anyone downloading applications like these, they have no place in the workplace or much less a Corporation with secured information.
Lastly, the whole open source software model is truely flawed with no logic whatsoever.
Who cares? This nonsense has been going on for too long on OSnews, especially in the past week. Those of us who use Linux on the desktop know it is ready because WE USE IT. Some people can’t or won’t, for whatever reason (valid or not) but does it even matter anyway? We’re using it and we’re happy, if it doesn’t make you happy, then don’t use it, but don’t go telling me that it’s not ready for the desktop when there is an endless stream of people using it and telling everyone that they are using it. When is anyone going to consider it ready? When they have 50% marketshare? Can you even determine a marketshare for free software? Will it be ready when every company makes a Linux version of its software? If that’s the case then I guess Macs aren’t ready for the desktop either. This is a go nowhere argument that could go on forever so what’s the point in arguing it?
“A corporation that develops software is using principles, guidelines, and so on.”
Now I know you’re not referring to Microsoft when you talk about principles, right? Surely not a company which has been convicted on antitrust charges…