I made some price comparisons this evening following the release of the new iMac. So, here is what I discovered, by trying to build an “iMac”-like PC (I targetted the configuration of the middle range iMac which sells at $1500), consulting prices from PriceWatch & PriceGrabber. The mentioned prices are retail and the individual components probably have costed even less for Apple, but I am going to overlook that and give the benefit to Apple. Update: Some good comments and further clarifications on the subject, can be found here. Update2: And speaking of eMachines (whose quality is not bad, neither the company is out of business (yet)), check out their brand new systems and prices. They even prepare for sale a NorthWood P4 system at 2Ghz. NorthWood is the new P4 CPU model which is much faster than its P4 predessesor at the same clock speed.This article is marked as an editorial, and therefore should only be treatent as the personal opinion of the author. Grammar/syntax errors are to be expected. 🙂
Case 10 USD
LCD 250
Firewire 20
Motherboard 50 *
NIC 10
Modem 20
GeForce2mx 40
256 SDRAM 40
DVD/CD-RW 100
Sound 10
Speakers 10
Keyboard 10
Mouse 10
40 GB Hdd 70
G4 700 Mhz 80 ** [Software 50] ***
———————
OVERALL: 730 USD* (most of the addon elements found on the motherboard are
actually counted individually – like firewire capabilities
for example)** (OEM Motorola prices are similar to equivelant Athlons or PIIIs)
*** (OEM Windows license, Ms Works etc, the usual stuff – For
an iMac the included software cost is close to ZERO
because it is considered strategic development and it is
included indeed for free)
So, the price to create an EQUIVELANT middle range iMac in the PC world is less than $730 (the prices above are retail prices, Apple gets EVEN better price deals than the ones I mention), but I will give Apple the benefit of the doubt.
The $730 price includes the R&D, marketing, support, markup, packaging, insurance etc etc as these individual prices found at PriceWatch were retail.
Now, how much money are they making? The same $730 USD system above, if it was the middle range iMac, Apple sells it for $1499. There is way more than 50% profit there. I call that a rip off and I am certainly not going to pay so much for such a system.
Now, I have to explain something here and please pay attention. We have to understand here that the notion of a rip off is a very subjective notion. Why, you ask?
Well, let’s say that I know someone that sells an authentic Madonna autograph. For me, if I wanted to buy it, I would not pay for more than $10 USD because that’s how the glossy paper that Madonna’s picture is printed on, costs. For a big Madonna fan though, this is different. He/she may actually pay $200 in order to obtain it. And there are some other variables we have to think. What if the picture that Madonna has signed on is a very rare one? Suddenly the autograph will cost more for the fan, while it won’t change my world and I would still not pay more than $10.
So, for me, that iMac-like product is worth $730. And exactly because I do know that, because I do have this information, if I have to pay more than $950 to $1000 for that system (giving a breathing space of more than $200, again for Apple’s benefit to use for excuses like Research and Modern Design), I will consider it a major rip off. However, a Mac user, or an LCD lover, or someone who likes the new modern iMac design, or someone’s first computer, or because it is easy to use, he/she would pay for such a device up to $2000. So, buying it for $1500 (which is the price Apple sells it), it may even sound like a steal to him/her!
The problem is that such machine, when compared to today’s similar config PCs, it is expensive and overpriced. The problem may not even be that Apple has expensive machines, but the problem may be that PCs are cheap! Have you ever thought of it this way?
On the other hand, PCs are computers, and iMacs are computers as well, doing the same basic things. So, paying $500-600 more just for being an Apple iMac, it is just not justifiable for my opinion and my wallet.
If you still have doubts, this eMachines model is a good example, with the *same* product quality/configuration as the middle range iMac. And it also has loads of software in it as the iMac does. Without a monitor it costs $800 (and eMachines even pay for a more expensive CPU, plus the OEM software). With a $160 19″ CRT monitor, 0.26 dp, capable of 1280×1024 @ 85Hz and 1600×1200 @ 75Hz, the whole system costs $960 USD. Retail. PLUS, that eMachine comes with a whole Pentium 4 at 1.5 Ghz, not at 700 Mhz (as OSNews reader Mario correctly spotted in our forums, a 700 G4, is equivelant to a 900-933 Mhz PIII – already far cry from the expensive and fast P4 that eMachines is offering for less!). eMachines is a perfect example to compare to the iMac, Dell, Gateway, Compaq etc machines are not. Both iMac and eMachines are targetting exclusively the home user, both have reasonable amount of software, both have a nice design, they are the low end machines of both worlds, but with considerable quality and speed.
Maybe I’m picky, but I would expect a better treatment from Apple when it comes to an iMac, which is supposed to be their “home hub device” affordable by families and all that marketing blah-blah and enourmous hype (hype that I personally dislike as much as cats hate the water). This should have been the machine that could attract and convert x86 users, like me. While the iMac may sell well to the already Mac users, I highly doubt that will grab any significant market share from the Windows/x86 world.
Point is, I am disapointed by their pricing decisions and I am even more dissapointed about the way they tried to manipulate the crowd with enormous hype (“where no PC has gone before” etc) the past week.
The middle range iMac features the hardware configuration I really want, and despite the fact that I do want a cheap G4 to run MacOSX, I ain’t gonna buy it. Not in this lifetime.
E machines top selling system
Specifications
CPU Intel® Celeron® Processor 1 GHz (w/128KB)
Chipset Intel 810 Chipset, 100 MHz FSB
Memory 128 MB SDRAM
Hard Drive 20 GB HDD
Optical Drives Built-in 12x Max. Write CD-RW Drive; 3.5″ 1.44MB FDD
Video Intel DirectAGP 3D (810 shared)
Sound Intel 82801 AC ’97 Audio
Modem 56K* ITU v.92 ready PCI internal Fax/Modem
Ports/Other 2 USB ports (1 on front bezel), 1 Serial, 1 Parallel, 2 PS/2, Audio In & Out, 1 Midi/Game on front bezel, Mic-In & Head Phone jack on front
Peripherals Keyboard, Mouse, Stereo Speakers
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It comes with the 810 chipset. I think that’s an 8mb video card. It shares 4 more.
As far as the emachine model you speak of it’s a little less than 200 dollars than a Gateway, the GTW has a better hdd and better CDRW.. Better support, better motherboard (MSI compared to emachine’s who-knows-what boards)..
If I were the average JOE and i wasnt a stupid hill billy I’d buy the Gateway or a Dell.
That machine is their absolute cheap one these days. Please do not try to distort my article. I compared the MIDDLE range iMac to their current Pentium4 at 1.5 Ghz specific model which sells at $799 USD. That P4 machine is the one you should mention and analyze, not their absolute cheap a$$ one. Not fair sweetheart. Because the one you mention only costs $499 (and they even have a model selling at $399), and for that price, is a good machine indeed. But we are comparing their $799 model against the $1500 iMac here.
I just sat down with a very hard core Mac guy. Great friend of
mine, and we talked. Candidly, he frankly was ashamed, in shock and
horrified by what was announced yesterday. He agreed, the over price
POS looks and smells like a blob of clay with a stick in it. For
what price??? 900, 1000, 1100, nope. More. And for that he is now
for the first time looking at buying a PC or two for the same price
completely configured running, you guessed it BeOS. Yep, as I learn
and experience the power of BeOS, albeit kinda dead end long run, it
functions exactly for what I want, and apparently more so for him.
The funny part is, why buy a POS over priced blob of clay with stick
for 100-200% more when in fact they just outpriced and cornered themselves
depending on the G4 productions or even the vapor G5 from almost out of
business Motorola. Bottomline, yes the Mac does hold value, for idiots
that paid too much new will also pay too much used. That is a given, and
never ceases to amaze even me. But for that ‘killer’ app and way ‘cool’
design, well you really have to hand it to the Steve Jobs Distortion field,
this one he outdid himself. Final note, when SJ rolled out the iPod ‘flop’
as it is now called ‘iFlop’, he had a look on his face telling the story, of
disbelief himself. I have seen the same discusted look on his face this time around
and I’m wondering when the public will pick this ‘energy’ up and realize
even the shmuck shoveling the BS to the public is no longer believing his
own BS.
Best to you all, and I hope most realize this is IMHO, not to be taken
without water.
Eugina’s comparison prices are complete crap, and his estimation of comparible function are obsurd. Cheap PC parts are just that, cheap, crappy, buggy, no drivers, no website, no aestetics, no quality. And considering a good motherboard and power supply are essential to a stable PC … any estimate less than $50 Case, $100 Motherboard is just wrong. HOWEVER … you CAN in fact get a really great PC, which competes with the top end MACs for less than the iMac.
Here’s a REAL sample (from http://www.mwave.com):
$ 70 Enlight case w/340 watt P4 ready PS
$150 MSI nVidia nForce motherboard w/ Geforce2MX video
5.1 sound, 10/100 NIC, USB
$174 AMD 1700+ Athlon XP (retail w/fan)
$117 IBM 60GB HD 7200 RPM, ATA-100
$129 Samsung 8/4/32 + 8 CD-RW + DVD
$144 Crucial 512 MB PC2100 DDR RAM, 2x256MB (www.crucial.com)
$ 41 Yamaha 201 speakers w/ subwoofer
$ 30 nearly any keyboard you want (I buy $11 Misumi 104s)
$ 50 Logitech dual optical mouse
$142 Windows XP Professional
$ 46 Shipping and Handling
—-
$1,093 WITHOUT MONITOR
Add KDS 15″ LCD shipped <$360
Add Viewsonic 15″ LCD shipped <$400
Add Your Choice 17″ LCD shipped <$700 ($550-$800)
Add LG 915FT CRT 19″ w/usb hub shipped $400
So … for $1500 with your choice of high quality 15″ LCD or 19″ CRT you get a powerhouse PC, with a standard beige case and aestetics, and a deposit directly into microsoft’s bank account … but the thing will outperform the top of the line mac, for the price of the top of the line iMac. All assuming that these parts work together … and you get someone knowledgable to install the OS and apps for you (maybe add $100 for that).
Opps … forgot … $40 for a firewire card. sorry.
And all I have to say is anyone who quotes a PC price under $1000 is buying crap … and anyone selling a PC for more than $2000 is ripping you off (not counting extra software or SCSI raid setups … etc).
I think those iMacs wouldn’t be TOO overpriced if they came down $100-300 AND completely removed the idea of selling a 128MB computer … that makes no sense at all … all that CPU, held back by a memory starved OS.
all prices are USD.
Eugenia,
Face it… your head hunting and Apple (and it’s new iMac) is in your path of destruction. I hate to say it, but you are starting to remind me of Oprah Winfrey, great actress, terrible talk show host; always one-sided and hardly ever makes a good point!
What are your thoughts on Microsoft’s new Tablet PC stuff? You haven’t given a ‘Our Take’ opinion, but seem to save that for Apple bashing instead?!!
Sorry Eugenia, I have much respect for you and I have followed your articles since BeNews, but this is really getting pathetic!!!
I had written previously, “Does anybody remember the original iMac price?” Since nobody answered, I’ll assume nobody knows. It debuted at $1299. Some people balked at the price back then, but six million iMacs later, it’s what ultimately saved Apple. This new iMac is better in every way, and it costs the same as the original did back in ’98(?). Plus, if you really want to get OS X but can’t justify the price, there’s still the “classic” iMacs available for under a grand. Granted, it’s still more than a comparable PC, but I don’t mind paying extra for it. Imagine running Maya (available for Mac OS X for free in February) on this great little computer. Yum.
While I don’t agree with E’s assesment of PC hardware, I don’t think she is overly biased against the Mac. You make it like she has some vendetta against Macintosh or Apple. If this were true, she would have blocked any kind of positive Apple news from the OSNews website–being as she is the Editor in Chief. I may disagree with her on some topics, but I don’t consider her unreasonably biased in anyway.
I have tried for many years to move away from Windows. On my PC I ran FreeBSD, since Linux never ran on it (old P5-60). On my second PC computer I tried BeOS, and loved it. The only problem was it had no WinModem support and until R5 had to run in 640×480 grayscale. I still plowed through it, and loved it. However I saw the handwriting on the wall when R5 was delayed continuously and the promised JDK1.2 spport was missing from the R5 release. At that point I turned around my plans to buy a new system to run BeOS on. At work I loaded BeOS, Linux and FreeBSD and played around in each of them. Besides BeOS, I didn’t see anything which made me want to jump over.
MacOS X turned my head early on, and when it came time to buy a new computer to run an alternate operating system I went ahead and did just that. I bought a Cube (paid too much for it actually) to run it and have it look cool on my desk. Finally, I have an OS that isn’t made by Microsoft that I can truly use and love. It has its flaws, just as all OS’s do. However, I wouldn’t trade my cube for anything. My next new computer will definately be another Mac, unless BeOS makes a comeback somehow. If BeOS re-enters the race, I would seriously look into that again.
Still up and running. Now with 256 MB Ram and nice and fast (G3 233).
Too many numbers here in this thread…..
The new iMac is beautiful! I give it a 10! The emachine or Dell or any box you might want to compare is just plain ugly.
But, if all you want in your girlfriend is a hole and heartbeat, fine with me. I just prefer “Centerfolds”.
JMHO
Sorry but her track record isn’t good where Apple is concerned…
She did the same when Mac OS X came out, when the iPod came out and now the new iMac, I agree that Apple needs to figure out where the iMac stands, but comparing the iMac to low end PC hardware from a mom and pop shop is ridiculous!!!
oh my god! i got ripped off buying a bmw when i could have bought a hyundai! jeez folks, comparing any mac to any pc parts is just not right. it’s like saying that the bmw 316i and the hyundai elantra are exactly the same because they have the same displacement engine, same number of cylinders, same number of doors and seats, has a hood and a trunk, 4 wheels, and a spare. why buy bmw then? hyundai’s will get you around the city pretty much the same. but then again, you don’t get the prestige, quality of build, and ease of use of the bmw. you’d get a economical, questionable build, and difficult to use (example, lousy door handles, lousy steering, lousy brakes).
——–
Yeh, so explain the cheap ram & slow (100MHz) system bus of the iMac, while PCs (ie. the Hyundai) have been using DDR and faster processors (real-world, not merely MHz) for ages now, and can be had for far less money. If you want to buy a novelty with the cheapest bottom-of-the-barrel OEM parts under the hood, go into your novelty store and buy an imac. All the car analogies in the world aren’t going to hide the fact that Mac users are increasingly being forced to accept a book on its cover, and compromise on performance and ‘handling’ and of course the increasingly important ability to upgrade their ‘budget’ computers (which everyone knows don’t stay in their prime for long). Macs were so far ahead of PCs in past years that it just wasn’t funny, so it didn’t matter much what they did. Not anymore…and people are starting to notice – lampshades and fruity flavours or not.
That said, 3 things I think are possibly — and I hesitate to use the term for fear I’ll become a new Jobs — 3 things I think are ‘cool’ with the new iMac, and deserve some praise for actually making a difference (TM) to users:
1) The ability to orient the monitor quickly and easily far more flexibly than a monitor on a regular stand. Definite plus.
2) Power consumption.
3) The (fan, HD) noise of the unit I’d expect to be very low. Good thing.
4) Small footprint (but at the expense of real upgradability, I think not).
I’d hate to see where Apple will be in 10 years though. The gap between what they think they can get away selling to their loyal sheep and the tech advances on the PC side are just getting wider and wider. If there were a mac clone market, I’d probably own one now. There isn’t, and the customer base, as usual, is stiffed by Apple and have to follow its course like some beggar asking for crumbs – any crumbs they receive they’ll proclaim to be the most righteous meal they’ve ever had. I want real competition & the real tech advances only competition can bring. This doesn’t cut the mustard.
Yet another PC vs. Mac Holy war. I’ll just say that a properly configured Windows machine doesn’t crash. Mine doesn’t.
Cost inflation is also the result of going retail. Best Buy, Circuit City all shoot for a 30 – 50% cut. This offsets their own cost of shelf space, support, training, ad, Returns, Stock, etc. So if Apple’s development and BOM costs reach $800 per unit (unlikely), then $1300 is rather reasonable for going retail. The flip side, however, is that this iMac looks as though it was meant to work as a ‘Digital Home Hub’ – aka appliance. (Serious PC/Mac users would *easily* forego processing power for a larger screen.) The target price for such a device is around $300. With this in mind, Apple is off by a WIDE margin.
>>That said, 3 things I think are possibly — and I hesitate to use the term for fear I’ll become a new Jobs — 3 things I think are ‘cool’ with the new iMac, and deserve some praise for actually making a difference (TM) to users:
1) The ability to orient the monitor quickly and easily far more flexibly than a monitor on a regular stand. Definite plus.
2) Power consumption.
3) The (fan, HD) noise of the unit I’d expect to be very low. Good thing.
4) Small footprint (but at the expense of real upgradability, I think not).<<
Great analysis, I definitely agree with that!
>>I want real competition & the real tech advances only competition can bring. This doesn’t cut the mustard.<<
If you want this, then you’re not exactly getting it from the PC makers quite yet, they are still behind Apple in this arena… the floppy is dead, lets get over it and move on, the parallel ports are useless, lets get over it and move on, the PS2 ports are useless, lets get over it and move on! If it doesn’t have FireWire and USB, then you are wasting my time… I have FireWire Drives and such, and I also use USB driven hardware, I don’t have anything for the old tech anymore.
I still think the PC is behind the times and PC makers are ripping off the normal consumer, because sooner or later they will be forced to upgrade before their ready, my stepfather is realizing this now with his eMachine eTower 466 Celeron (and he is a gamer by the way) and his new games are giving him grief. He was asking me what he should do, so I went thru his specs sheet and upgrade options, not alot to play with other than RAM upgrades, and he is not a happy camper!
I see good things and bad on both sides of the table, but my experience with Macs have been alot better than with PCs by far! I’ll keep my Mac thank you!!!
Sailfast wrote:
Since the markup on clothing is about 70%. I don’t know how you have time to write articles like this with all the sewing and knitting you must do.
That, my friend, was truely hilarious!
Face it… your head hunting and Apple (and it’s new iMac) is in your path of destruction
When you finish being lame, getting this Mac sad puppy zealot face and finding easy conclusions that only serve your blindeness and ego come back and talk. Also, please reread this in a week from now. You will see how stupid it is, especially when you read all the OSX reporting we do, the MacOSX week etc.
In all cases, I talk openly. I ALWAYS write what I feel. Wrong or right. And that is what makes people bitter against me. I am strongly opinionated and stubborn as a donkey. In the recent past, I have badly critisized Be, I have badly critisized Linux or Windows or Apple. And I have praised Be, I have praised Linux or Windows or Apple. Depending what they do each time.
In this case, Apple is selling the darn thing very expensive. There is nothing to talk about that. <U>It is a plain fact.</U> And I write it, because I wanted to be their costumer, but I can’t afford it, and *even* if I had all the money needed, I would definetely not buy it just because it does not worth as much they sell it.
Make me rich for one day, and if I buy a single thing more than the things I really need, come and spit on my face.
You know, I will tell you yet another pretty personal thing, because this is how I am, I am not hiding behind my own words or my own shadow:
When I was little, as every kid does, I was asking to my father to buy me this or that. Most of the times, my desires were not reasonable, sometimes they were, but still, my family could not afford whatever I wanted each time. These times, my father was always replying:
“Eugenia, you were born by poor testicles. Not rich ones. Deal with it.”
(Now you know from where I inherited my strong language
So, I know who I am, and what I want. Paying $1500 for something that costs considerably less than $1000 (no matter how much I desire it) is in direct violation of who I am, and my respect towards my husband. End of story.
“I’m glad eMachines *made* good hardware. They are out of business because of their amazing business savy and marketing”
How soon we forget how close Apple was to being “out of business” until Microsoft bailed them out…
“How soon we forget how close Apple was to being “out of business” until Microsoft bailed them out… ”
If I had a dollar for everytime I read that urban legend (as in: not true), I would go buy a new iMac!
This thread makes me wanna barf. You cannot comment on costs regarding such things as technology. To compare raw hardware is ridiculous. There are such a number of factors involved such comparisons are of the likess as to which is a better OS, NetBSD or SCO/SUN? Think about it.
My 10 year old sister wants a Malibu Barbie Corvette. Guess what? Until she has the CASH, or someone else buys her one, she can’t get one. And complaining to Hasbro or whatever isn’t going to lower the prices. Jeezus.
Everybody KNOWS Macs are expensive. If you think they’re TOO expensive, don’t buy one. I am looking at a loaded Apple G4 POWERBOOK, at 3X the price of the new iMac, because to me, they’re worth every penny. I wouldn’t buy the new iMac, but I WILL buy the G4PB. I don’t have the money yet, but I’ll get it, and I’ll pay it, because *I* think it’s worth it.
And maybe the high price adds to the sex appeal. If my girlfriend sees a cologne for $100, she loves it. If she sees the exact same cologne on for $20, she avoids it like the plague. High prices make Mac users “elite”, and not in the hacker sense. Maybe Macs are as much a status symbol as they are a tool and a toy. So Apple makes a markup. So what. Look at the markup Microsoft makes. Look at the markup Starbucks makes. EVERYBODY has markup, and lots of places have a BIGGER markup than Apple! At least Apple gives you a pile of great software free to compensate for the hardware costs.
To me, all coffee tastes the same, so I won’t often pay the extra markup at Starbucks. My girlfriend sees VALUE in Starbucks, and is MORE THAN WILLING to buy coffee there. Eugenia doesn’t see the value in an iMac, others do. Eugenia, don’t try to change how a huge company does business BEFORE you’re even a customer. Plunk down the cash, THEN you have a right to complain. It’s like voting. If you don’t vote, don’t complain. You’re complaining about the drive to the voting booth, hoping they’ll move the booth closer to your house, and you’re threatening not to vote until they accomodate you. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
Scot’s essays were constructive criticism, and were for the most part well thought out. Your stuff is destructive, and offers no solution besides “Lower the price, *I* can’t afford a Mac at the current price. *I* WANT to be a customer, but *YOU* are stopping me. Change, and I will buy one”. Then they lower their prices obediently, and by then you’ve changed your mind. “Sorry, Apple. OpenBeOS is doing good, that’s where I’m heading”.
I don’t think you understand the value of, or culture surrounding, Macs. The macheads I know are a small group who KNOW they’ve got something better. Every one of them is happy with their computer. I use Win98, RedHat Linux, and BeOS (boxed version), and NONE of these systems are as ubercool as my friends Macs. I will have to incur new hardware costs to switch to a new OS, too, but that’s life. At least you don’t have to do it with the pathetic Canadian dollar like I do. Sell your other computers. Sell your CDs. Stop drinking coffee and eating out. If you want something, work for it. Don’t expect a handout from a Fortune 500 company. And don’t expect pity from others who are in the exact same boat.
And you don’t NEED a G4. Just like you don’t NEED a big screen TV or DVD or fancy car or whatever. You NEED food and water and shelter. Everything else is a luxury. ESPECIALLY computers. You’ve got x86 hardware, get a copy of Win98. Try FreeBSD, it rules. OpenBSD is supercool. Help the AtheOS guy if you’re a programmer. Like Scot said, he’d like to write a book for MacOSX, but the Mac world is actually kinda crowded. The AtheOS world is kinda empty. You seem to think they need better widgets, make some. Kurt will appreciate it. Make your mark on that system, it won’t cost you a cent.
If you don’t want to join the Apple club, then don’t. I do, and I will pay to join. The price is a barrier to stop people who aren’t serious. And there are lots of people above who’ve done good comparisons of value and see Macs as just fine – for them. You have to go beyond dollars and cents to see what others see.
Some of you guys are real idiots and should go back to slashdot, macslashdot, winslashdot or whereever you’re stupid selves came from. Especially people like you Zoober.
I’m not a Mac loyalist. I come from the Wintel world. But after researching prices between the two platforms over the past year, I found it hard to identify a variance greater than 10 – 20% when a true feature to feature comparison was made. I found that Apple is doing a respectable job at matching feature and performance with major Wintel suppliers, and keeping the price relatively competitive.
When forced to upgrade hardware to run XP, I instead chose to purchase an iBook for about the same price (excluding software licenses for the new platform). I can now say that the ease of transition, the quality of hardware and software have more then made up the price difference in my opinion.
I wish computers were cheaper, but I expect to pay enough to keep the suppliers in business. I guess I remember when the IBM PC was first introduced in the early 80’s – a really good one was about $3,500. I guess I’ve gotten use to the fact that top of the line computers will always be in $3,000 range, high end systems will be in the $2,000 range, and good low end systems will be in the $1,000 range. I’ve built a few for $500 or so, but time is money and you’re on your own as far as support is concerned.
Did anyone calculate electricity bills?
I think my Dekstop puts 35 bucks a month onto my bill, including monitor.
I bet you are charged less then a third as much as a comparable desktop PC with that iMac.
Lets assume the iMac is 1/3rd the energy cost of one of the decent end p4 desktops, even though it probably alot less. thats at least a 200 dollar a year savings.
Whoops there go all price comparisons.
…If my girlfriend sees a cologne for $100, she loves it If she sees the exact same cologne on for $20, she avoids it …
So what is so good about it? What you say that you willing to pay, for stile and quality of the product, and people who don’t, are not belong to the “sex appealing” elite? It’s OK with me, and about 95% of computer users. And not all of them are stupid or lacking sex appeal.
Well, people, I really like PC hardware bashing you do here
But this is not the point for lots of people.
“Cheap PC parts are just that, cheap, crappy, buggy, no drivers, no website, no aestetics, no quality.”
No website? who cares?
crappy/buggy/no quality? hmm, it is usually configured my PC manufacture and works all the 3-years guarantee time (after that people usually buy another pc, don’t they?). if it’s really bad, it is changed or free.
no drivers? Joe User does not know about drivers. it just has a system he bought from the shop
no aestetics? well, a lot of people in the world don’t have any computer and are forced to buy as cheap as they can. most people need functionality as cheap as it gets, aestetics is for those who have nothing other to think about.
Surely, you will not understand my point since you live in prosperous countries, but affordable home computer for the most of the world (5.5 billion people, 2 of them are more concerned about what to eat tomorrow rather than choosing a new PC) is definitely not the new iMac
Have a nice day
people who use iMacs dont care that they lost RAM. They are just simple users. if you want more, then go somewhere else. They brought out the iMac… you dont have to buy it, they arent making you. You, eugenia, as the consumer, dont have to do anything. Buts its there if u want it. You guys are forgetting that this iMac isnt about whether you can build a similar PC for cheaper… seems that apple gave up competing against PC’s in that area long ago. What the iMac gives you is convenience… that thing is less than half the size of my computer combined. There are NO PC designs out there that can offer what that does… no matter how slow… there is the new shuttle spacewalker.. but getting the LCD on there wouldnt be too easy.
Eugenia.. you almost sounded like you knew what you were talking about.. almost a respectable opinion. As a consumer, you should try and find out more about what you buy. There is no such thing as a $10 case, unless you just wanna buy a piece of sheet metal. And if there is, i wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole. A $50 motherboard?? mebbe if its broken. And the G4 is an apple chip… i thought you were building a PC? I wont even bother commenting on the rest of your poorly researched prices. Did you not even bother reading actual reviews on the Northwood P4 and realize that its only a “tad” faster. And how can you say the quality of eMachines is “not bad” when even you speak of their impending doom (” not out of busines (yet) ” ). You sure dont match up to the qualifications listed in ur biography.
fine. dont buy apple. i’m sure they wont care if they lose a consumer like you. If i was steve jobs i wouldnt.
first of all, that’s fine if you want to have a cheap pc that you can sit in your bedroom and watch all of your favorite divx porn from, but imacs are to be seen (unlike beige boxes). $10 for a case isn’t going to even get close to the design work apple does for these things. i almost want to go back to what my mother used to say… “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”… you just can get the equivalent machine from a bunch of spare parts. if that is what you want, then go buy a gateway. at least they’re spare parts are shipped in fancy decorated boxes…
good grief… you leave an internet bulletin board for one day, you come back and you feel like rip van winkle…
but i somehow got through most of the comments posted here, i think the last thousand left me a little blurry…
but points well-said here already that i’d just like to second and support:
1. even with the fan, the imac is quiet
2. the mac os is far superior to some luna-imitation windows that wants me to e”xp”erience (experience quirkiness and blah)
3. the imac is extremely energy efficient
4. the mac software blows any moviemaker, media player, and other poor imitation crap apps to hell
5. you can’t make dvds as easy as this
6. the imac is much more than the sum of its parts
…the space on my desk is already made.
If you don’t think that Microsoft played a HUGE hand in helping Apple stay afloat, then you are only fooling yourself.
They did not play a hand at all. Bill Gates bought a minority share in apple, but that is it.
>>If you don’t think that Microsoft played a HUGE hand in helping Apple stay afloat, then you are only fooling yourself.<<
Basically he story goes like this… 1996 Apple bought NeXT Computers and it’s staff for about $424 million, Steve Jobs takes over as interim CEO (and now full-time CEO) and decides to form a Strategic Alliance with Microsoft, but before that could happen Bill Gates had to agree to paying the settlement (un disclosed amount) over the intellectual properties that Microsoft had taken from Apple way back (probably something to do with Windows and Mac OS, maybe not anyways). Bill Gates asked Steve Jobs and Apple if he and Microsoft could purchase $150 Million worth of non-voting stock to show a sign of good faith. Don’t forget Apple had made a profit in 1996 of over $8.5 billion, so money wasn’t the issue, but Apple was also not expanding nor growing as a company, which if you don’t grow, your stock price loses value and stock holders start to freak.
Strategic Alliances happen all the time (especially in the Tech Industry) and usually company A will invest into company B or vice versa. For Microsoft, this was probably a good investment indeed.
So in a way Microsoft did help Apple and Apple has returned that favor both past and present 🙂
I didn’t read all of the 131 comments, but I noticed two things about the original article…
1. No Software
Macs and (most) PC’s are sold with operating systems pre-installed. You’ve priced the hardware, but ignored the operating system cost. The OS cost is not “close to ZERO”, as you claim. Until a few years ago, vendors paid about $40 USD per copy of Windows which gets passed on to the customer, of course.
Also, you ignore bundled software. Macs come with Internet Explorer, iPhoto, iMovie and more. This bundled software is also not free; PC vendors often do the same.
2. Hardware Quality / Bottom-Dollar websites
The websites (PriceWatch and PriceGrabber) from which you obtained your pricing focus on providing the lowest possible prices for any particular piece of hardware. This has some interesting ramifications.
2a. Vendors will often list items on PriceWatch and PriceGrabber below cost just to get sales. You sometimes even have to tell the vendor that you saw the price on those websites in order to get the part for that price. This is similar to video card manufacturers optimizing their drivers for a particular benchmarking program in order to get better reviews.
2b. The components with the lowest prices are often rebuilt parts. These parts may have failed once already and been returned to the manufacturer. Apple has historically used better parts than most PCs. This is appearant to me since I still know of several MacSE and original Apple LaserWriter printers that are still operational and used today.
Eugenia,
How about this?
http://www.microcode-solutions.com/home.htm
The Oracle
As Cattbemac said, MS bought 150 million of nonvoting stock.
Apple had around 5 billion cash in reserve in the bank at the time.
Apple settled a copyright lawsuit with MS.
The Strategic Alliance also included assurances that MS would continue to develop Office for the mac.
The statement written “How soon we forget how close Apple was to being “out of business” until Microsoft bailed them out… ” is one of those misconceptions that persists because it has taken an urban legend type life of it’s own.
Ok…you got everything wrong.
Have you bought a car?
What choice do you have?
Depend where you are….but let’s figure this.
You have the choice of a Lada….cheap…cheap…cheap. You pay for what you get.
Then, you can buy a VW Beetle. You will have to give some money for the R&D, the Industrial Design, etc, etc. This is part of the process of making the car….you have to pay for it.
Then, you can buy a porsche. …. be prepare to pay more for what you will get.
Now, what you want is a fuckin car that have 4 wheels and an engine…no more.
THen, get a Lada.
If you want to be in a pretty car…you will pay more. Obvious…isn’t it?
Now.. this simple example show you how any market work.
You want a computer running OS X. You don’t want to pay the price of the new iMac….well, get the old iMac….or, an Old Mac that can run OS X. You have some choice there.
Your buying parts example is really stupid. Comparing to a eMachine is too.
Hope you get the point.
Stop with the Emachines comparisons. I am a Mac user and a PC user. Computers are tools. Creative tools, industrial tools, entertainment tools. Pick the right tool for the job. Pick the to YOU LIKE the best. But please, when comparing tools, don’t compare the $19.99 saw you buy from Pic-n-Save with the life time guaranteed Craftsman you buy from Sears. In my experience, (42 Emachines), Emachines makes cheap tools that may work some of the time, but fail more often than not. Yes, I said 42 Emachines computers. I have 56 RMA numbers to go with those 42 Emachines. I have a bill for $1,300.00 that is just for replacement power supplies. Another bill for $1,700.00 that is for replacement floppy and CD drives. I have personally owned 8 Macs, and cared for 36 others since 1988. I have replaced 1 logic board in the first generation iMac, 1 floppy drive, and 2 motherboard batteries. So, pick your tools, but compare comparible tools with eachother. We live in a world of choice. I will buy more PC’s. I will buy more Macs. Each will have its own purpose.
Okay, first a few things about eMachines. They are/were a POS manufacturer. I have friends with machines from them, and believe me, their markups were significant (about 50%): one friend worked for Staples, and got hers at an employee discount, which generally means at cost. Nothing but the purest junk. She’s in the process of dumping it at the moment. I know of nobody who’s used an eMachines product for two years (well, probably not even one year) without problems. (On my current iMac, bought almost two years ago; I had a slightly defective keyboard which began to misbehave about three months after I got it; Apple replaced the keyboard in under two days – I’ve had no other problems.)
Now, on to the pricelist.
Case 10 USD
This is a junk price. Any reasonable case will run you at least 30-40 USD.
LCD 250
I have to wonder about this. $250? Most of the NEC and Sony LCDs I’ve been seeing are in the $400 range or so (although there’s one at http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=MT3908&cat=pc&ori… for $379.95). And that’s the fair comparison: Apple’s LCDs are famous for quality (ever hear about the Cinema Display?)
Firewire 20
Okay, um, fantasyland. Try this: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=VW57881&blind=no&… which is $70.
Motherboard 50 *
Again, fantasyland. Well, not completely, but in order to support a processor that competes with a 700 or 800MHz G4, you’re going to need to blow at least a hundred bucks on a MB. More likely, a hundred and fifty or so. A 50-dollar MB and you’re stuck in crap land.
NIC 10
That’s cheap, but not insane. I’d suggest more like 20 bucks for a good 10/100 NIC.
Modem 20
Here we agree. 56k is cheap, and gradually becoming irrelevant except for faxing.
GeForce2mx 40
Here, I’m not sure, but this seems reasonable considering the prices I did find.
256 SDRAM 40
Actually, I got a stick of 256 for 40 Canadian a few months ago. But I digress.
OEMs stockpile RAM anyway so aren’t able to react quickly to RAM prices coming down the way consumers can.
DVD/CD-RW 100
I assume here you are referring to the mid-range model here. DVD burners cost quite a bit more than a hundred bucks. However, still: Apple’s drive is a 12x8x32x8x drive. IBM makes one of those for $280:
http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3474&cat=pc&pf~…
Sound 10
Okay. Not on your life: not to compare with the iMac’s sound. Try something like this: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=EX8941&blind=no&c… which is $28.
Speakers 10
The Harmon Kardon speakers that come with every iMac are worth a whole bunch more than 10 bucks. Try a hundred. I’m really trying hard to be generous here.
Keyboard 10
For a USB keyboard? Once again, dream on. $10 will get you a POS keyboard with a PS/2 port – only. Perhaps this might do: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=IN9260&blind=no&c… even though I hate Microsoft keyboards; it’s $40.
Mouse 10
For a USB mouse even remotely comparable to the Apple Pro Mouse? Logitech’s mid-range optical mouse: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=395&cat=pc&pf~*… for $50. I like Apple’s mouse better; I do have my eye on a Logitech cordless trackball though. Mm.
40 GB Hdd 70
Well, this is a 60GB HD, but otherwise resembles greatly the iMac HD: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3453&cat=pc&pf~… and it’s $130. I can’t see anybody selling a 40GB for half the price of a 60. Why not just buy two? I would suggest a more likely estimate around $100. (Actually, $110, but I’m trying to be generous.)
So then, the recap. This is cost before CPU and OS, all in USD.
Case 10 30
LCD 250 380
Firewire 20 70
Motherboard 50 100
NIC 10 20
Modem 20 20
GeForce2mx 40 40
256 SDRAM 40 40
DVD/CD-RW 100 280
Sound 10 28
Speakers 10 100 (conservatively)
Keyboard 10 40
Mouse 10 50
40 GB Hdd 70 100
Total 650 1170
Okay. Now add processor costs and OS costs, which are difficult to compare; processors because it’s hard to find a precise equivalent to the G4 in the Intel world, and OS because in the Intel world it’s a separate item and in the Apple world it’s built into the final price of the piece of hardware. I would suggest a 1.1GHz Celeron as a possible substitute for a single-processor G4 like that found in the iMac; I would expect it to be slower on some tasks but should be overall comparable. That’s at http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3637&cat=pc&pf~… for $120. Now, Windows XP Home Edition: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=5567&cat=pc&pf~… for $200. We’ve arrived at a subtotal of $1490. Then, factor in the cost of producing a custom (unique) mobo plus a custom (well, unique again) case, assembling it all, and I’m sure you’ll see we’re getting pretty close to that $1499 pricetag. Or maybe even past it. Whoops.
The iMac also comes with part of the support needed for IEEE 802.11b wireless networking support built-in. You can get a 3Com Airconnect card at http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3592&cat=networ… for $110, while the AirPort card from Apple is $20 cheaper at http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3592&cat=networ… presumably because the iMac has the aerial already. Also, Apple’s AirPort Base Station I believe is the only 802.11b hub that supports AOL; it’s also viewed as being one of the best. The tiny size of this new iMac has to suggest to people that wireless networking is really getting to be the way to go. Get an AirPort, a wireless keyboard & mouse/trackball, and look! the iMac now has no cables except power, with a couple receivers for the keyboard & mouse stuck in 2 USB ports. Happy days
And finally, for Eugenia: You say you’re a developer. Well, fine. Do you code for a living? Are you planning on making money off of programs that you write that utilize the Velocity Engine?
This is a reasonable question, I think.
If you are, then is $2K US really a lot of money?
How much do most professionals spend on the technologies that they need to practice their profession?
More than $2K. Hell, cab drivers spend more than that each year.
And you don’t even want the DVD burner. (Which is inexplicable to me. I’d love to have a DVD burner in a developer machine. What better way to archive large amounts of data? Other than Firewire tape drives, I mean.
Somebody asked how much OS X costs when bought separately. It’s at http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=SYS1079&blind=no&… for $129. So, cheaper than XP, but probably still somewhat subsidized by hardware sales (unlike MS which has to make back all of its money from OS sales). There’s also a $50 rebate if you buy both Office v. X and OS X at the same time (Office is at http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?dept%5Fid=4168&cat=mac&pf… for $450).
BTW, OS X runs fine on a G3. One of my exes runs it on her iMac 400 with 192 MB RAM. No problems. It doesn’t need 4GB of RAM just to start up, despite what I hear sometimes
iTunes vs. winamp flamewar: I like winamp, it’s one of the better Windows apps out there. However, iTunes does things it doesn’t. Like: (a) it allows me to drag and drop MP3s on my Rio 500; (b) it encodes MP3s elegantly inside the same interface. Winamp was a breakthrough program, and rightly deserves an elevated position above the things that came later (especially RealJukeBox, gah); but what iTunes really is a fully integrated MP3 environment, while winamp’s just a player.
Finally, as for the whiners who complain about all their expensive Windows software. Assuming you’re too technically incompetent to just set up a network and run both machines next to each other, get Virtual PC 5: http://www3.warehouse.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=COM1401&blind=no&… for $240. It’s capable of running 9 separate operating systems for Intel simultaneously, and comes with Win2K bundled. And yes, it really works, as well as Windows ever does anyway.
[qoute]And that’s the fair comparison: Apple’s LCDs are famous for quality (ever hear about the Cinema Display?) [/qoute]
yes I’ve seen it, it a standard LG display
http://62.245.135.198/ds/product.asp?dept%5Fid=104&sku=HD10021
The 17″ is better, Apple doesn’t make TFT’s they buy it
form Samsung and others and charge more for the design…
you list the costs retail. fine. I have two comments.
How much does it cost to assemble this heap of parts? I’m talking about the time it takes you, with your retail bought parts – you CAN buy all of these parts retail. too many PC hardware nuts make up the costs and don’t figger in their personal time. I don’t have time to build my own machine, too busy doing actual work on it. (oh, and playing games)
Apple’s costs may be $730 for parts but then you describe the software as FREE? Was iDVD free? It does COST something to develop these apps – this sort of simplicity takes a lot of work. And what’s for tomorrow? What new things will we see. All developed for free as well I suppose. What about the stores? What about shipping? Marketing? Look at MacWorld, you think 15 Gigabits of streamed data per second is free? Yes, the PEOPLE who want the machines want all of these things. They want TV adverts, they want apple to be in the public eye – this all costs money.
If you don’t GET it now then you never will. I wonder why it is that half a dozen people have told me that they have ordered the new iMac – the top of the range new iMac – it’s because they’ve done video editing on windows, it’s because they use Windows every day and it’s because they recognise value as being more than just the sum of the parts.
I understand what you mean when you say you want a cheap G4. I do really. I’d like one but I’m willing to pay a bit more to get what I really want.
Want a G4 for under £1000?
There’s a Cube on eBay.co.uk for less than 900 quid (ends today!) and a G4/400 with half a gig of RAM and a 17″ CRT plus printer, scanner, zip and CDRW..for….£1080.
You want it but you don’t want to pay for it. sounds sensible enough. not the most original idea but there you go. If you disagree with the price then don’t buy it. It’s not an insult against you so get over that already! You could, of course, get a better paying job than hanging out here at OSNews all day?
One benchmark that has not been accounted for is the good ole’ fashion RC5 benchmark. The dnetc client does a good job pushing the integer/vector unit of the CPU to its limits.
A 800 MHz G4 is WAY faster than anything AMD or Intel have. Take a look at the client speed database…
http://n0cgi.distributed.net/speed/
We see that an 800 MHz G4 gets about 8,243,188 key/sec, while a Athlon XP 2000 gets 5,847,268 keys/sec. I won’t even mention what the Pentium 4 gets… hehe.
Apple is battling the same issue that AMD has… MHz are not everything.
So to equal a G4 running at 800 MHz you would need to get a dual Athlon machine. Something like dual Athlon MP 1.2 GHz ($154 each on pricewatch) or a dual Athlon MP 1500 ($163 each) would be about the same speed as a single CPU 800 MHz G4.
I would say that would bump the price of your machine up a lot. Here is what I have calculated. I gathered prices based on what _I_ would pay if I bought all the hardware right now…
2 Athlon MP 1.2 GHz $308
1 Dual Athlon MB $200 for okay one ($250 for a good one)
2 Heat Sink/Fans $50 (for copper hs/fan…)
1 256 Meg DDR DIMM $72 from Crucial (PC2100, non-ECC, unbuffered)
1 Case $50ish (Maybe cheaper, depending on options)
1 Geforce 2 Video Card $40
1 DVD-R Drive $400 (once again, price can change a lot)
1 15″ Flat Panel $270 (cheapest on on pricewatch)
1 Crappy sound card $10
1 60 Gig HD $90 (maxtor… :-()
1 USB Mouse $20 (for an “okay” one)
1 USB Keyboard $10
1 Set of speakers $40
1 Firewire card $15-20?
———————————————————————- ——–
Total: $1575
$1575… without any shipping… and this is assuming you can actually buy an item for the lowest price that pricewatch lists.
This is the closest Apple have been to a machine that costs what it should. Once you throw in the fact that is looks cool, is pre-built, and you get to run OS X… it is a pretty sweet deal.
That is all I have to say about that.
-Ryan
The author of this article apparently does not feel that the free trade system that this countries economy is based on is worth her time and wants someone to give her something that a lot of people put a lot of time and effort and work into for next to no reward. She also seems to think that she can go out and buy a single G4 chip for around $80. While you may be able to get the chip itself for that price, finding the facilities to solder it onto a carrier card may be a little bit of a hassle and quite a bit more expensive. Maybe you should try buying one that is already socketed and ready to go into a machine, which would run you wholesale around $250 to $300. And that’s if you buy in bulk. Also, a $250 LCD is not quite the same as an LCD that is mounted to the machine for you, thus the wonderful enhancement of the all-in-one design. As for your wonderful endorsement of emachines, hmmm, can we say, oh, I’m a cheap-ass, don’t know what I’m getting with this new iMac and think that all computers are the same. I’m sorry, but an IBM AS4000 is also a computer but the last time I checked those run for around $150,000 for the bare bones model and don’t come with a flat panel display! You also have to consider that since Apple certainly does not like to give things away for free (really, they don’t, it’s mostly smoke and mirrors when you get “free” software from them like iMovie, or iTunes, you’ve already paid for them by buying a Mac) so the cost of the OS is included in your purchase price of a new iMac. But we’ll forgive you for thinking you have some sort of inside knowledge of how Apple’s books are balanced. So if you’re through being a completely useless end-user who apparently thinks her computer is just a box that beeps occasionally and does pretty things on the screen, we can actually discuss what is involved in the actual manufacturing and construction of a computer that serves for more than just a word processor, web browser, and e-mail checking tool. You can make a movie on this machine! That used to cost upwards of $50,000 dollars for the hardware alone, not to mention the guy to run the machine, since you as an end-user are not very technically savvy and don’t have the 4 years of training required to run an AVID or Media100 workstation. For $1500, you get a machine that allows you, an end user, to shoot, edit, and burn to DVD your very own movie! For $5 a pop! $5 for your own copy of your own movie on a DVD! And that’s not worth $1500 to you! AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! WHY ARE PEOPLE SO FREAKING STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU MORONS DRIVE ME INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I MUST EAT ALL YOUR BRAINS BECAUSE YOU APPARENTLY HAVE NO USE FOR THEM, YOU BLIND, BABBLING, DROOLING, WHINERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that I’ve said that, I feel much better. Thank you for entertaining me with your silly antics. I will no ignore you for the rest of your life.
If macs are such wonderful value why doesn’t everyone have one?
>You could, of course, get a better paying job than hanging out here at OSNews all day?
Thanks to the wonderful (and free) country of USA, I am not allowed to work here. I came to USA in May, because I got married to a person who works here. Before May, I had a very well paid job as a web master of a business ISP in UK.
Also, a $250 LCD is not quite the same as an LCD that is mounted to the machine for you, thus the wonderful enhancement of the all-in-one design.
YES it is, the Apple one is the CHEAP digital only version,
It doesn’t have an expensive analog VGA converter.
Have you applied for a green card yet? they are not realy that hard to get.
gfx: The Cinema Display is a 22″ display. It’s beautiful. Anyway.
Jeremy: She probably didn’t marry a citizen. A green card is easy to get, if you marry a citizen; however, it’s tricky if you’ve just married somebody with a green card.
she married a french man (or french Canadian) I think. what about if she goes to school? students canget greencards no? or perhaps she could send her resume to a few places and see if they will front for a work Visa for her…or…she could go the normal route and becoem naturalised….most other countries let their natural born citizens retain citizenship after becomeing a US citizen.
Work from “home” (keep your old job)?
VNC is a great thing, I don’t have to even get up to find out the Win2K box down stairs has crashed, and I have to go down stairs to reboot it… 😉
as for the Mac vs PC argument, well, it’s ugly so I don’t care
That said, every time I see it, it grows on me that little bit more… I’m going to take a trip into London to see if I can get to have a play on one.
The TiBook is nice, and at the sort of price I would pay (even though it is more than the “equal” x86 stuff).
mlk
You’re probably happy your not living in Sweden Eugenia. The three versions of the new iMac including tax goes at 18.495, 20.995 and 24.995 respectively (all prices in SEK).
Hmm…that be about $2000 for that mid-range machine of yours…
Eugenia said:
>>Apple should wake up, create a really cheap machine and ALLOW people to use OSX. I don’t care how iMac looks. I don’t care if they add horns into it. All I want is to run OSX respectfully in a reasonable machine. And that’s the bottomline, my gripe, my pain.
Except of course, if Apple really want to be a niche locked at the 3% of the market and don’t want to really compete with Microsoft at any level. Dunno. Go ask Jobs for it.<<
I do not whant to flame anyone, but do you think it would be so hard to make that OSX running ot that cheap emachine you are talking off?
It’s UNIX, not some kind of arcane unveiled to us by the Mighty Allknowing Steve job: UNIX is on the market since the middle Sixties, and has been developed to be a multiplatform OS, so, the reason because Apple is selling so hipriced hardware is to keep their costumer tied to itself.
The bulk (90%) of the Apple market are those who really need a Mac to get their job sone (like me), and here price is not an issue (for Apple at least).
The number of those buying Apple because is CLASSY is small as an absolute number, but important for a niche company as Apple is, and many of them would leave the boat if they ever should feel like the apple is no more as TRENDY as it is nowdays: what would happen if Apple puts on the market a cheap, affordable Mac in the range of prices of the current IMac G3, but with a G4 in the box?
After all, a G4 is not so much different, nor as much more costly than a G3 is: Both are ageing quickly, and Apple can’t squeeze any more mhz from them.
But it has a Marketing cost: what amazes me is that you can buy, paying an awfull lot of money, a totally obsolete tecnology like a G3 if you buy from Apple, i.e, an hadware who can’t support present day OS, where an equivalent hardware would be junk on the PC market.
This suits well to Apple as well as to their SNOB costumers, and all are fine.
Many on this forum complain about Apple hyping the iLamp, but what about the supposed MFlop monster attitude of the G4 (dual proc)?
how many flop (Floating Point Operations) it takes for a G4 to do the same workload that takes a single clock cycle on a more conventional CISC processor (like a humble AMD) which runs around 2,5 Mflop (and this is the reasons why in the last 10 years no one has seriously considered the Mflop benchmarks) ?
The answer is: Different tecnologies do not compare, like apples
and pears!
Still, Apple keeps hyping this way the Mflops output of their Top-Of-The-Line product, and Apple owners feel proud of how much money they have invested on their G4 (and I could point out that for the same money they could have gone for a real monster like a Compaq/Digital Alpha server, Risc, fast, 10 time faster then a G4 when talking about MFlops).
But as Apple teach us: THINK DIFFERENT: common sense is for the dumbs!
LvP
I don’t think the analogies people have been making between cars and computers is relevant. Unless, of course some very expensive, but well built cars (read Apple) have to use specially-ordered gasoline (read software) that is only available in some places and still costs more.
Also the idea that Apple’s OS is more user-friendly is a carry-over from the days of DOS and Win 3.1, when it really was more user friendly.
I was comparing computer prices a couple of years ago, although not the very bottom end machines. I thought that Macs cost about the same, but didn’t come with anything. No CD-RW, smaller screen, etc.