It arrived in the mail today: the Java Desktop System beta, in the form of a live CD, based on SuSE’s 8.2 live evaluation CD. I was eager to try Sun’s attempt at creating a user-friendly Linux distribution, so I signed up for beta-testing, and this live-CD is the result.I was kind of disappointed to see it was only a live-CD, since I am not really fond of them. Live-CDs never seem to function properly on my system, or they do not function at all. But, I inserted the disc into my primary CD-device, and threw all my prejudice in the garbage bin.
Installation
The Java Desktop System beta (JDSb) is not a ‘100% pure’ live CD, since it requires some files to be installed onto, in my case, Red Hat’s / partition (the JDSb is also capable of using a ‘Windows c: drive’, although I doubt that NTFS is supported). The three files created hardly use any disk space (a little over 100 MB), and are easily deleted when done using the JDSb.
After creating these files on your hard disk, the YaST2 setup program is started (only instead of SuSE it says Sun). YaST of course does not require any introduction; it has already proven itself, in my opinion. The install/configuration was almost perfectly smooth, except for two things. First, YaST hung during printer setup, and it’s not that I have a very rare printer or anything. It is an HP DeskJet 840c. I just rebooted my computer, and skipped printer setup.
The other glitch in YaST has actually nothing to do with YaST, or Sun for that matter. It is the fact that X does not seem to like my ATI Radeon 9000. I have had problems in every Linux distribution so far. X recognizes the card just fine, but the Radeon general or Radeon specific drivers do not seem to work. I always have to switch to the standard Vesa driver. Not much of a problem, normally, but here we are talking about a live cd, which means it was not possible to edit my XF86Config file from the command line. I had to ‘reinstall’ JDSb for the second time. My expectations were still high.
After the configuration finished, it booted directly into JDSb, without the need for a reboot.
First Impressions
The desktop looked good. Not special, not extraordinary, but good, almost ‘professional’. No real surprises here.
I am not so impressed by the other visual elements of JDSb. Especially their Blueprint theme, is, to say the least, hideous; as though created by some 13-year old who had nothing else to do. It is a combination of dark purple with chrome-like widgets, almost unreadable. And it absolutely does not go with their primitive grey button set. I just hope that this is really a ‘blueprint’ and that they are going to improve on this matter before the final release in December this year. This may sound like whining to you, but do not forget that this OS is aimed at desktop use, which means it also has to look good, besides having solid inner workings (which it obviously has, since it is a Linux distribution). Blueprint falls into oblivion compared to Mandrake’s Galaxy or Red Hat’s Bluecurve. (what’s with this ‘blue’ thing, anyway?)
Applications
JDSb comes loaded with Mozilla 1.4 as standard browser, Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 for email, and Gaim 0.66 for instant messaging. So far nothing surprising; although I must say I prefer Galeon over Mozilla, but that is just me.
JDSb features Sun’s own StarOffice 7 office suite, which, of course, performs just wonderfully. This is supposed to be the ‘big thing’ that is going to draw users away from Microsoft. I do not think it will, though. Even though StarOffice is probably just as good as MS Office, it just lacks the ‘reputation’ MS Office has. I think the number of OpenOffice.org/StarOffice users in Windows is relatively low, even though OOo is getting quite some attention (at least here in the Netherlands). If OOo and Sun are unable to gain marketshare on Windows, how are they going to draw users away from Windows with the help of this office suite? Seems pretty unlikely to me.
There were not really any other interesting packages available. Gimp is installed, Java Media Player, and Totem, a movie player which I had not heard about before, Gnome PDF Viewer, and that is about it.
Why Java In The Java Desktop System?
Included in JDSb is the Java runtime environment (Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition), which means that Java applications run smoothly on JDSb. A few Java applications are included. The already mentioned Java Media Player, JGraphpad, jDictionary, JDiskReport and jEdit (reminded me about Kate). Are these applications of notable quality? No, they are not. They use a different, even more primitive button set, and they load quite slowly. A notepad application should load in less than a few seconds, jEdit simply takes too long to load.
Conclusion
The Java Desktop System has disappointed me. I expected more, much more. I know this is just a beta, but knowing that the final release is planned for December, they have quite some work to do. First, they should consider making the GUI more user friendly; now it is inconsistent, not very readable, and just plain ugly. This is a major point considering this product is aimed at the desktop.
Secondly, they should definitely include a wider variety of applications. Maybe I am spoiled with Red Hat, Lycoris, Mandrake and others, but you will not be able to compete with other distributions this way, let alone compete with Windows.
And I just cannot find out why they use ‘Java’ in the distribution’s name. Including a runtime and adding some Java applications does not justify this; I know this is just a live cd, but still. They probably used it because quite a lot of people have heard about Java (also end users), since ‘Java’ was kind of a magical word in the world of cell phones.
So, how does JDSb compare to other desktop-oriented distributions? Well, it is not better than, say, Red Hat, it is definitely not better than Lycoris and absolutely not better then Mandrake, not even near it. It’s not a bad one either, though, it just lacks identity. I think that is the major point: it has no identity. Of course it is just their first release, so we might see a lot of good things coming from Sun. But not when they’re heading in this direction.
From a company with financial problems that’s pinning its hopes on this new product line, I would expect a more complete, more finished product, just 2 months before the final release. I just hope the high people at Sun realize that releasing a good quality product two months after the promised date is better than releasing an unpolished, unfinished product on time.
Specifications Of Test System
-K7T Turbo2 MotherBoard (MSI)
-AMD Athlon XP 1600+
-512 MB SDRAM pc-133
-ATI Radeon 9000 w/ 128 MB DDR-RAM (Hercules)
-Compaq v75 17″ color monitor
-CMI8738-based 5.1 sound card (C-Media)
The Sun Java Desktop System beta live-CD features the 2.4.19 Linux Kernel
Perhaps it offers a viewpoint on the reason why Sun needs a “killer product”.
[sarcams]Wow, I’m Sooo amazed, look at that! A linux system with mozilla, gnome, gaim, and star office? What a UNIQUE product! Let me pull out my wallet![/sarcasm]
I would have expected very fast Java application load times and therefore more apps written in Java. When I first heard about this desktop I figured the Java runtime would be somehow more optimized and loaded at all times. The issue of launch times should have been taken out of the equation. I then expected them to have their own browser and other utils. This is just an average distro with what sounds like the standard Java runtime anyone can download. What a disappointment! Such a lost opportunity.
We all know that some companies make inferior products to make their other products look better. Example: Vanilla Pepsi is terrible, but it is just an attempt to get Pepsi drinkers not to try Vanilla Coke. Ok dumb example. Some people may think that SUN produces great products but have never tried Linux and then they try Java Desktop and then they go back to Windows. Sun has proven that they don’t like Linux and now they have proven it. Stay with SuSe, Mandrake, or Red Hat and we all will be happy.
..isn’t this just Suse 8.2 with a Sun theme?
or am I missing something?
Good review. Its got enough details, since the distro seems rather generic.
Just a tip: Many LiveCDs(I know KNOPPIX and MORPHIX) let you edit your XF86Config file as a boot flag. So you’re not stuck w/ the auto-detected one.
Also, if the LiveCD lets you close X and go into a terminal, you can always edit it, and restart X.
And Thom, you’re right, that theme is very bland, and hard to see. Maybe its just my eyes though.
I have a Radeon 9000 too, but I had no problems with mandrake 9.1.. Even hardware accel for 3d works fine. Have you tried it?
I had problems with the official ATI driver. There are new official drivers on the ATI site for all their cards in linux. I haven’t tried those yet, but plan to when my hard drive comes in (old one failed).
“They use a different, even more primitive button set, and they load quite slowly.”
Ehm…. that would be because they’re Java apps and hence are using the Java Metal GUI controls – they’re not related to the system’s theme. Granted Sun could update Java with a new theme but something tells me that would be up to a different division
So much for consistency…
Every window in the screenshots has different graphics near the “file edtt …” menus.
I thought they were going for a consistent desktop here…
I was looking foward to this, too. :/
“Have you tried it?”
Of course, MDK is distro numero uno on my computer!
)
“Ehm…. that would be because they’re Java apps and hence are using the Java Metal GUI controls – they’re not related to the system’s theme. Granted Sun could update Java with a new theme but something tells me that would be up to a different division.”
Either way, that’s indeed no excuse. If you promise to make a consistent desktop distro you cannot afford to come up with this and say: “well, that’s the Java GUI, created in 1923. Deal with it.”
I didn’t expect them to come up with the BlueCurve (better than Galaxy IMO) killer immediatly, but still, this is just a shame…
How this piece of patched together distribution is supposed to compete with the elegance of Mandrake 9.1/2(almost out) or ArkLinux is beyond me. I have found Mandrake to be the best server and Ark Linux seems like a very promising desktop, even though it is still an alpha. While they get there, I’ll stick to Mandrake.
This JDS looks hellish; it has zero competitive advantages other than Sun brand’s recognition. My fear is that this will actually be a blemish on the future of Linux as some people may conclude that this is what Linux looks like.
I wish SUN would go on to provide higher integration at a higher stack level. They should have gone with a stock SUSE or Mandrake distribution and provide integration tools for managing a huge number of desktops. A company with a lot of tech, but little direction and very little coherence in its finished products.
A true shame as I think that SUN is a company that does real R+D, but they don’t seem to know how to “productize” it.
While I do agree that Sun should somehow have optimized their JVM specifically for this distro to make Java apps perform better, I couldn´t stand the comparision between Jedit and a Notepad.
I mean… Jedit is a full-featured text editor with several plugins to do almost anything. It is more Emacs-like than Notepad-like and it does very well what it is expected to do. All the programmers here switched to Jedit from vi after some experiences.
Also, Sun indeed has made huge improvements regarding speed with the 1.4 JVM/JDK but Java apps still take some time to load, to launch and the JVM still needs quite a lot of resources to run some complex programs. But they surely can´t make byte-code interpreted on a virtual machine run faster than native compiled code.
Ugh – what’s that “C” and “D” drive nonsense doing in the file manager view? Please, enough of the Windows pandering!
Anyway, it looks like this could be a killer product, if they really listen to the feedback and iron out the wrinkles. Don’t screw this one up, Sun – your future might depend on it.
Looks like a Linux desktop with Sun and Java scribbled all over it. And what’s with the Java apps anyway? If Java is such a good language to program applications in one would think it would look nicer and support modern features like anti-aliasing. Those apps look like something from Windows 95.
I agree with most of the comments, but this isn’t a bad start. Its just hard to tell if Sun put this together themselves or had some preschooler do it. Fix those ugly Java apps or admit that Java wasn’t designed for applications programming. Either that or put your money where your mouth is and prove to us that this Java desktop is cross-platform and fully functional so anyone could patch any Windows, OSX or UNIX system with the Java desktop and make it the perfect client OS.
Personally I think Java in its current market is a failure and needs to be reevaluated. Its great for some things, but certainly not for everything. I was expecting a media player that supported all the popular formats and looked at least as nice as Windows Media Player or all those nice tools on OSX.
I’m curious. What kind of “reputation” does MS Office have? IT people hate it, because its a pain to maintain; Mac people hate it, because its overly complex and non-intuitive; long-time Windows-users hate it, because they remember when superior software like WordPerfect was widely available (my father curses Word to this day). Highly technical users hate it because its so unproductive compared to a DWIM (Do What I Mean) tool like LyX or LaTeX. A lot of people may use MS Office, but does anybody really think of it as more than a necessary evil?
Of course, maybe its just the people I know?
Hey, I used quotes, meaning, “think for yourself what I mean by reputation.”
)
Although, Office 2003 is a huge step forward. And I’m N O T being sarcastic here!
You know, last time I tried the Suse LiveCD, it was slow as hell too. LiveCDs are going to be slow, it’s a fact. Write the CD image into a partition and let me know how slow it is, that’s what matters.
Also: It may be just another Linux Distribution, but it’s another Linux distribution that *Sun* is supporting. Neglecting actual costs, if you ask a CIO if he’d buy Linux support from Redhat, Mandrake, SuSe, or Sun, he’s going to answer Sun, since they’re a long time player.
Also, that’s why there’s few apps: Sun doesn’t want to have to support all of Linuxdom.
I’m sorry, but maybe they’re simply not targetting users who want a desktop full of preinstalled apps. I think Mandrake has way too much apps. Less can be more. Just a suggestion.
First. OK, this is still a pre-release (and a live CD at that,) why does everyone bitch about one person’s “review” of something that’s not even done yet. It’s like eating a half developed egg and complaining that it dosen’t taste as good as the chicken recipe you like to eat.
Second. To my knowledge, this isn’t some, “buy it off the self at CompUSA” distribution and install it at home. Sun has developed a system with support and pricing for the server and development to the desktop. I’m not sure many of you will buy the Java Enterprise Edition and more than 1000 users for your home. This is for rolling out Linux on a corporate scale, say at a large call center like Do Not Call signup call center. I for one think it could be huge for Linux in business.
“I’m curious. What kind of “reputation” does MS Office have? IT people hate it, because its a pain to maintain; Mac people hate it, because its overly complex and non-intuitive; long-time Windows-users hate it, because they remember when superior software like WordPerfect was widely available ”
Most people I know like, even love Word, excel, etc… The thing is, it is too difficult for what most people are doing ( when I sugessted my father to install linux on his computer, he said only if I can erad/edit my excel and word files…)
I personnally use latex 95% of the time, but Jesus, it is by no way comparable to word. Some things in latex are horrible : errors handling is a nightmare, the syntax is a bit bloated, and most tools available are some PERL scripts which are often difficult to use. The problem with latex is that there are no user friendly tools to handle things like bibtex files and cie…
Yet it does not look as slick as any other app. If you however look at the BlueCurve ‘look and feel’ they introduced in jdk-1.4.2 things start to get better. Heavy complex apps don’t need antialiasing. Au contraire, size of fonts need to be quite large for anti-aliasing to look pretty. Complex apps have a lot of stuff in a screen at the same time, hence small fonts are a necessity. I don’t think SUN is going after pretty, pretty useless, that is.
They go for the typical large enterprise with ugly java enterprise software to do CRM work, ERP work and other *work*. Put this OS on a Athlon64, 512 MB 20 GB workstation (or even diskless) and I guess you have the target right there. MDK and Red Hat (Fedora ?) are nice, very nice, but not meant to operate in a enterprise environment, where people indeed have to put up with what their employer wants them to put up with.
Enterprise apps are started only once, and then are expected to run for the rest of the day. My experience with the MS productline is that they are trying so hard to be pretty and handy that it’s rushwork, therefore tends to crash more often. I think for this offer, stability, reliability and durablity comes to mind rather than to please the home end-user or reviewer for that matter. Buy RedHat, MDK or Windows for that purpuse.
Expect more servicing/network management tools to roll out tons of these machines quit easily. Sun goes for the networked, corporate enterprise, hence *professionals*. I like to compare it to army stuff, that’s most of the time butt ugly, but serves it purpose better than just good looking stuff. It’s the priority that a product should be, that should be taken into account and I miss that in this review a lot. The remark about Jedit was plain ignorant. You should not be reviewing professional software as a home-enduser-reviewer but as a professional. Put on some other glasses and don’t be so rude, please.
<<
Personally I think Java in its current market is a failure and needs to be reevaluated. Its great for some things, but certainly not for everything
>>
Man, these comment pages are getting as bad as chat rooms! I think I’ll consider just skipping them completely from now on – after the above insanity! Maybe we should copy the chat rooms and try to setup dates here? Maybe your age/gender check?
What planet are YOU living on? Might be time for a pulse check to see if you’re still breathing. Java is GROWING leaps and bounds – much faster than anything else. The HEAVIES in the industry are completely pushing it and some real money is being made there. Even the “alternative” OS groups for telephones and PDAs are ALL Java enabled.
Because SUN can market anything doesn’t mean there is something wrong with Java. By everyone’s estimation Java is _growing_ much, much faster in everyday usage than any other 3rd generation language. JVM != Sun Microsystems by any stretch of the imagination (IBM has a better one IMO). And Dell and HP recently voluntarily put Sun JVM on their desktop and laptop shipments for MS XP to guarantee their systems would be “java enabled” out of the box.
I know ASM, C, C++, Java, and others. Java is THE culmination of languages to this point (jury is still out on D, since it is in its infancy). But anytime, I MEAN ANYTIME anyone wants to argue that “Java is a market failure,” I would encourage you to only travel Route 128 North of Boston and SEE the “failure” for yourself.
Because you can’t write something in a language (probably never written anything in your life) doesn’t make that language a failure. C rules the OS world – and it probably will in the near-term future. But Desktop apps are going more and more toward Java and Python. And with the increase of power in small chips for phones/PDAs Java will only increase.
The problem is that many people don’t seem to make the distinction between the home-enduser world and the world of software that make the world go round in the first place.
The ease of use, scalability and availabilty of Java on a multitude of platforms is a fact that so many forget. They once saw a java app starting up slowly and it didn’t quit look like the look-du-jour, so they think it’s trash and like to scream about how slow/ugly it is, without thinking of the true purpose this language is designed for.
Computers tend to become faster, so slowness will be a non-issue (as far as it is an issue now) on a short notice.
This desktop solution, combined and integrated with Java has so much potential, that only the ignorant fail to see what’s it about. (say in 1900: man can travel to the moon in 50 years, etc etc…)
Did they even bother to back port NPTL like in Redhat9 so that their java apps were faster?
Also it is not that this distribution doesn’t have an identity, it is just a very ugly one.
Honestly CDE in Solaris is better than that desktop, and probably faster too.
no graphical tools for LaTeX? Now I’ve never used BibTeX, but I seem to remember stuff about that in LyX.. EVer tried it? http:/www.lyx.org
AFAIK Java doesn’t run with the new NPTL functionality. So they have to rewrite both the jdk, j2ee and everything AND have to backport NPTL to 2.4.x. Yay… That’s insane. The number of threads or the speed at which context switching occurs only makes a difference if you’re in the 1000+ realm of threads, therefor on desktops not very likely to occur, therefor not a very wise thing to do. My guess is that they wait for 2.6.x to settle, libc + NPTL to settle in and then come with their new jdk with support for these things via the community process.
The speed difference between an NPTL enabled libc+kernel doesn’t make up for the great pains to support it *right here, right now*. Please wait for a year, Athlon64 + NPTL + 2.6.x + JDK will be there.
( I hope : )
Maybe Office 2003 is great. The last version of Office I head installed was ’97. Now, my experience with Office is limited to helping my dad when he accidentally turns on some “feature” and can’t get rid of it. The poor guy called me in a panic the other day because he thought that PowerPoint had eaten his presentation that he spent 2 days working on. He was using the “Master layout” feature, and he couldn’t find a way to show more than just the two master slides. Apparently, Master Layout is supposed to show a toolbar with an “exit” button, but for some reason, his installation didn’t.
No one ever answered my question the last time I asked this, so I’ll ask again:
What ever happened to Sun’s JavaOS that they were making a few years ago, that would have run on Sun’s on workstations…?!
Michael Lauzon
Founder & Lead Project Manager
InceptionOS Project
http://www.sf.net/projects/maxlinux/
[email protected]
Well the good thing about that review is that the reviewer obviously had no clue about Java or a deeper understanding of the latest live systems. So is probably not much different from an average not too technical user.
Like some commentator wrote, at least Knoppix offers to use the hard disk and to allow for modifications at boot time. My guess is, that this live cd will offer a similiar feature.
Why is this thing called Java Desktop.
Well if you look closeley, you will notice that the fonts on the Java apps and the fonts on the Windows like taskbar/start menu match. You will also notice that the frame around the windows of the Java apps look very much like some SWING theme (SWING is Sun’s prominent GUI lib/widget set).
I therefore suppose that the Window manager (the thingee that is responsible for drawing frames and such) plus the start menu/task bar (the basic application below a desktop) is using SWING layout and probably is written in Java as well. Which would perfectly explain the naim Java desktop.
As I have no such live CD I can only guess the latter, but I would be surprised if SUN just took the SWING user interface look and implemented it in some C or C++ program.
Regards,
Marc
The reviewer criticizes jEdit for failing to load as fast as he thinks a simple Notepad-style editor should load. JEdit is not a simple Notepad-style editor, but a robust fully-featured devlopment text editor. It’s quite popular and the fact that the reviewer obviously doesn’t know about it cast doubts on the credibility of the rest of the review.
AS for the ugly theme, I dunno. The desktop in the screenshots looks good to me, if rather typical.
Also, why no discussion of the software? What version of the kernel? Is Sun hosting its own update service?
Thin gruel, overall.
It’s embarassing to see the lengths companies will go to emulate Microsoft. “This Computer” instead of “My Computer”, “Documents” instead of “My Documents”, “Network Places” instead of “My Network Places”. I mean really, do they have to make it EXACTLY like Windows? I’m not even saying this to bash Windows, but I don’t think it would cause the average user any trouble if Sun were to put in a few new ideas of their own. People aren’t really all that attached to the Microsoft desktop icons I don’t think, as long as there’s an easy way to start up the programs they want to use. Anyway, just a little rant.
I don’t want to comment on anything but the initial statement of this report which totally dismisses “jEdit as a very slow loading Notepad”.
first to be totally frank, I don’t use Notepad, and cannot garanty that Notepad can be turned into a full fledge IDE for Java/C++/etc…. If it’s the case, please through a stone to me ^-^
obviously the author, didn’t even bother to test jEdit or explore the functionnality of it.
I’m using jEdit 4.1 for months now… And it managed to replace my favorite Emacs.
It’s intolerable to see how such superficial review can get attention.
go and check yourself the tones of well crafted plugins/macros etc.. on jEdit.com
Thom, have you used XD2 before? If so I’d really like to know how you feel they stack up. I used XD2 quite extensively both for school and work, and I found it to have everything I ever needed (barring a decent media player, of course…but that’s just a matter of time
.
So you think Java should be used for everything?
I worked in a startup that wanted to send targetted email with Java. Brilliant idea, just brilliant. With what they spent on Java and licensing for some Tibco software they could have bought a backup database server. Perl also was faster at processing the email and could have been developed in a fraction the time it took them to roll out new features with Java.
But you’re probably right, I’ve probably never written anything in any language before. Don’t listen to me.
Okay but I was thinking about this.
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/JavaTecha…
I think some of the comment above just show that we are OSS zealot that cannot accept the good side of MS product. I myself are using OO for my all of my works nowday (since the last 2/3 year). I feel the pain of using OO everytime I use it for my works but the ‘zealot’ spirit in me keep preventing me from revert back to MSOffice. Although the productivity reduced a bit compared to when using MSOffice, OO still let me do my job.
And I really didn’t agree with Raynier that MSOffice is as bad as what his comment is. To me he is having a stronger zealot spirit in him and cannot acccept that MSOffice is a better product than the OSS counterpart. Comment like this will never make OO or other office application any better but the real improvement of OSS application is the most important matter. Portability is good but if too much time spent on it just ruin the usability part, which is the biggest problem faced by most OSS application to my opinion – PORTABLE BUT NOT USABLE.
You are a troll wrapped in what some people might think is a “thoughtful” comment.
And I really didn’t agree with Raynier that MSOffice is as bad as what his comment is.
>>>>>>>>>>>
My comment it that most people I know hate it. You really can’t argue with that.
To me he is having a stronger zealot spirit in him and cannot acccept that MSOffice is a better product than the OSS counterpart.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I never said that the OSS products were better. I did say that better products existed (WordPerfect!) and I stand by that assertion. Also, whether MSOffice is a good product depends on your usage of it. If you write a lot of code documentation like me, LyX or DocBook are greatly superior tools. If you do fancy handouts, KWord is a superior tool because of its frame-based design. Both are entirely adequate for the occasional term paper. That about covers my uses, so as far as I’m concerned, my OSS tools are better than MSOffice.
In fact, since I don’t need as many features as MS Office has anyway, I only use 85% OO.org is far better and easier to use.
Considering that this is one of the few non-microsoft based desktops (other than Apple), I think this is a great start. Also Sun is positioning this towards corporate users such as call center facilities etc that dont need a whole lot of tools. You will be amazed to know that so many people that work in microsoft environments still dont know much beyond the start button.
I think Sun has made a good decision to mimic certain features in thie desktop that looks like windows because it will make a lot of people feel comfortable.
I agree most of the members posting in this site are probably power users of unix, linux, windows and they might not need these features.
But think about the average joe that just logs on to his system in the morning, checks email, types up word document most of the day, or using a web based tool all day. He wouldn’t want a completely new desktop
Plus think about the costs involved in training those folks to use new desktop features. Companies might as well pay the hefty Microsoft licences to upgrade instead of teaching every employee to learn a new desktop
Does that make sense?
I’m a Java developer and I like the idea that Sun is coming out with a Java-happy Linux.
While it’s really just another distro, I have to say I’m impressed. The live CD booted up and in less then 15 minutes and I have a fully working desktop with Java pre-installed. Is there are easy way to make a live cd with just the packages I want?
This machine was setup for an intern that needed Open Office (Star Office 7 did just fine) and jEdit… I was able to install SmartCVS and iReport very easily since the JRE was already installed (although the j2sdk would have been better).
The version of Gimp is 1.3 which was a surprise.
Everything is peppy in comparison to using Java programs on other Linux machines (in general, yes I know Java is slow)… The machine has 384 megs of ram and after using all of those applications top reported 100 megs free.
as distros go its not the best or the worst (ever used lindows). at a glance it looks like thay have just slap this together in a hurry but there sales point is the support. i have always like the idea of big names (like sun,ibm,…) moving to linux ,it make the microsoft shares fall and helps people see that there are better(&worse?) options then microsoft. BUT i would like to say good on sun but if i was going to buy it i woulden’t buy the first version i’ll wait a year of too then if it’s still around i might buy it (why would anyone buy something thats free tho)
[sVen]
I stopped reading the review after the bit about Jedit.
As this is the first release of the Desktop. I expect it to not be perfect. Hopefully Sun will pull their socks up and make it a better poduct over time.
I know the desktop is good & everything. but since it is based on SUSE then why not make a desktop combined with SUSE & avoid compition? i am not complaining but just curious if everyone start their own distro then it is just gonna make switchers more confused? I am completly with the idea of United Linux.
“I stopped reading the review after the bit about Jedit.”
Get over it. Jedit is a terrible basic text editor. Sun put it in as the the *only* text editor and therefore I think the review was accurate and fair.
OK John, thanks for the link, nice read. But as the article states, there are some caveeats and they’re not able to show any significant improvements for NPTL compared to original linuxthreads on a simple uniprocessor machine. The startuptime improvement is just 1.4.2 without any fance threading lib involved, as is to be read. I’ve measured this myself. I don’t say NPTL doesn’t matter, I’ve written a paper about it for my course evangilizing the benefits, but I’m saying the advantages don’t outweigh the effort to backport the kernel + adapt jdk right now. They’re going to wait for things to iron out (and things work on larger boxen)for this to roll out on larger scale ( not to mention getting the JVM to work at full speed on Athlon64 )
As what i understood, the Java desktop would provide a new kind of X server or WM at least, completely running Java… no Xfree, but a Java desktop (perhaps above Xfree as a wm).
But when i checked the .xinitrc on the livecd (received it too) i saw that it loaded kde with another theme on it…
But i didn’t believe it so i ran a simple ps -aux… well what did i see? gnomesessions…
this is one of the biggest fuckups i believe hell of a dissapointement ( and i’m a sun freak have me own ultra’s only code in java etc…)
indeed big dissapointement… hope they get it right next time
Part of jEdit’s sluggish loading performance has been plugins. If you load 30 odd plugins at startup (yes, the app is extensible) it takes a while.
However, with the development version 4.2 Slava has rewritten the API for loading plugins for deferred loading.
The editor can be loaded in the background, like Mozilla does.
As for Swing themes, as HarmenDijkstra mentioned the gnome look and feel is supposed to pick up the user’s settings.
If you want Swing eye-candy, buy a Powerbook and use the platform native L&F!
Personally, I’ve always disliked the [corporate blue] Metal Theme. I much preferred Sun’s Vancouver/Organic (1.0x Swing for you veterans!) But then Metal was a management decision that Java had to look ugly like Windows 95/NT4!
As for anti-aliasing Java2D supports this, however one needs to enable this in code via hints. I know jEdit, see previous post, supports it.
Wow using kernel 2.4.19 is not a good idea…
Joe Dimwitt assumes that because it doesn’t look pretty and sexy as a home desktop solution, for some reason it won’t catch on in the corporate sector.
This is NOT a homedesktop. This is a corporate desktop. Corporate users don’t need 2 trillion text editors, mediaplayers, star chart analysers and pasers. The corporate user has a set number of applications. They need an office suite, email application and instant messaging for messaging collegues (I assume that SUN will have a JXTA compliant server soon).
Don’t people get it? If this was me, and I was Joe CIO, I would deploy this immediately. Anything that stops employees from conducting non-work related “computer tweaking” is a bonus in my book. Employees aren’t there to tweak, install or modify business equipment. If they want to fiddle with the computer, they have their home one. Their SOLE purpose at work is to, amazingly enought WORK! not to fiddle, tweak or modify the computer or surrounding environment so that their “inner spirit is in tune with environment”.
I may sound like an old battle axe, but lets be realistic. You don’t pay a persopn $45,000 to stuff around, you pay them to produce something. If they don’t do their job you have to ask why you pay them $45,000.
Think about it sunshine. It is 2.4.19 with hundreds of patches and enhancements, it isn’t the off the kernel.org release.
When are people going to buy a clue and stop posting such rediculous claims.
btw, if they have based it on UnitedLinux/SuSE, the aren’t using NTPL but NGPL which is a M:N rather than what NTPL which is 1:1.
Sun Microsystems made an excellent product. Yes, Sun Microsystems is best!
Hi,
Think enterprise with thousands of clients and different type of users (front desk, blue collar, whitecollar, etc). JDS is not targetted at individual users, e.g. a Linux user.
Think from the point of view of CIO and CTO, that have to handles hundreds of softwares, hardware in their enterprise. And then they have to explain these to the CEO, CFO, etc.
Think of those Win2K, WinNT, Win98 users. Do not think of Linux users. It is not targetted at Mandrake, it is targetted at Windows.
It is called _Java_ as it will eventually have a significant Java components. It’s v1.0, so very little Java. It also makes life simpler in the board room.
On the UI, I think it’s personal taste. So it’s not fair to say that.
JDS, together with other Linux distro, collectively represents a choice to MS. Each of us as Linux user, has a choice. We can either criticise JDS, or welcome it to the family as a new born. It’s still very young. I’m sure it will get better.
Regards
e1
Agreed, also, one has to take into account the fact that this is updated every quarter is will be available to all their subscribing customers. If the initial customers have problems, any issues can be corrected and the distribution can be fine tuned ready for the next refresh.
Since customers AREN’T paying per-release but per year, there is NO productivity loss if some icon or menu is out of place. As I said in the previous paragraph, any issues that do appear can be easily fixed.
What customers want is not a big-bang but lots of small bangs over a 3 year period so that system admins and developers can digest the changes and understand who to full utilise the features as they appear.
I hope this is not too OT. But, like the poster whose header I’m quoting, I have often wondered what an “all-Java” system would be like?
I can remember Eugenia saying something once about Java “giving her the creeps” (or something close to that). I felt the same way at the time. But, as both Java and hardware has become faster, I’ve begun to change my mind. I use LimeWire and ThinkFree Office on both Windows and OS X and really like both of them.
So, given the original poster’s question, the new Sun JDE push and, just for the heck of it, what do you who really know alot about Java think of the idea of an “all Java” system? And I ask that in a theoretical way – I realize there would be many real world obstacles.
Thanks!
IT people do like MS Office. It allows anyone with an interest in automating their tasks to record macros or write simple apps in VBA. Everyone you hire knows how to use Word and Excel and most have copies at home. It is grossly over-priced but even if you only save a half-day of training for one user, you more than recover the extra cost.
CooCooCaChoo is right. This “Java Desktop” is targeted at corporate desktops, not homes. That’s what the “enterprise” angle means. As usual, many posters are incorrectly equating “deaktop” with “home user”.
Enterprise IT folks want more desktop standardization, not less. They want to disable as many users options as possible, not increase them. They want one set of apps on every desktop, and they don’t want users dropping in or downloading their own apps of choice.
THis is all due to money. It costs real money to provide IT support; money that’s spent begrudingly, in my experience. Every bit of user flexibility results in potential higher costs.
Folks who have no experience in the business world sometimes see this as Evil Corporations Limiting Users Freedom. Well, yeah…but that’s the gig. They’re the ones paying those users.
Well, I’m ready to reply to some issues.
First, the jEdit thing. Typo on my behalf: I wrote NotePad while I ment WordPad. Hence why I compared jEdit to Kate (the alltime editor/word/notepad app for me). Sorry for the inconvenience, though. Wordpad boots up in less than half a second here (running Windows Server 2003, so that might be a little longer on Windows XP). jEdit took way longer.
About the GUI: someone said something in the likes of “That’s a matter of taste.” Duh, what’d you expect from a review??
Taken form the Sun website
“Sun Java Desktop System is an affordable, comprehensive, simple to use, and secure enterprise-grade desktop solution. (…) Key features include a well-defined, integrated look and feel, familiar desktop themes (…)”
That last thing just isn’t true. It doesn’t matter whether it’s enterprise aimed or not, when you say that last thing, then also DO it.
Try JDistro.org. That’s a pure Java desktop. Its actually quite fast and snappy too.
Why risk future vendor lock-in? Sunw is just trying to play msft’s game. There is no huge advantage over other versions of linux. So why bother?
Sunw wants to either own linux, or ruin linux. Sunw doesn’t like the competition. McNealy vigorously defends scox, and supports scox financially. McNealy never misses a chance to claim that if you don’t buy from sunw, scox will sue you.
Businesses should buy SUN’s offering and save money. You can use any distribution of Linux on the desktop so just do it and be happy.
IT people do like MS Office. It allows anyone with an interest in automating their tasks to record macros or write simple apps in VBA. Everyone you hire knows how to use Word and Excel and most have copies at home. It is grossly over-priced but even if you only save a half-day of training for one user, you more than recover the extra cost.
With StarOffice 7 you can do the same thing and IIRC, you can also write Macros in Java as well. That is the *ONLY* feature that people moaned about being not available.
Regarding writing a VBA Macro, I would just love you to point to atleast *ONE* end user who can write in VBA, just *ONE*. Companies I know of that use VBA get Macros written by the IS staff as part of a standardised set of templates. Joe and Jane employee does NOT customise, write or manipulate those templates or macros in *ANY* way what so ever.
>that would be because they’re Java apps and hence are using
> the Java Metal GUI controls – they’re not related to the
> system’s theme.
The release version of JDS is due to ship with a newer version of Java, which does pick up the GNOME system theme.
> Do they have to make it EXACTLY like Windows?
Yes, because that’s the only thing many companies migrating from Windows are willing to buy.
>> Do they have to make it EXACTLY like Windows?
> Yes, because that’s the only thing many companies migrating from Windows are willing to buy.
Do you know this from experience or are you just pulling this statement out of your ass? Do you actually know any companies that have switched to Linux due to it looking just like Windows?
Your review is good.
I too got the SUN Java Desktop in my mail. I did try it out.
1. I hate GNOME, but SUN has made some good with the interface.
2. Since it is SUSE, i know what all things works.
3. It works great if you have a hard-drive or not.
4. If there are multiple hard-drives, SUSE/JD LiveCD asks YOU which hard-disk to use.
5. Java applications are no faster in this LiveCD. Started up Websphere Admin client and Veritas Volume Manager and other stuff which uses java, not too fast or not too slow.
Only one disadvantage I see of LiveCD is that there is no ability to :
1. start new services
2. install new programs,
3. increase the space on the hard-drive it uses.
I have not had time to look at creating LiveCDs, but would love to create my own. Uses you ask :
a. FTP server or a MP3 streaming server, where the hacker canno write into
b. PC for your guests(diskless PCs), so they cannot download or tamper or snoop into you stuff.
c. When working at a remote site, you can use LiveCD and work in the env that you are familiar with.
I use Suse 8.2 LiveCD whenever I have to work at a remote location where the desktop is a Windows PC.
Every Linux user should eval LiveCDs
“Try JDistro.com. That’s a pure Java desktop. Its actually quite fast and snappy too.”
It appears to be just a desktop, not an OS. Sun a few years ago — back in the late ’90s — was working on something called JavaOS…a complete operating system for computers written in the Java programming language.
Michael Lauzon
Founder @ Lead Project Manager
InceptionOS Project
http://www.sf.net/projects/maxlinux/
[email protected]
Founder
The Quill Society
http://www.quillsociety.org/
[email protected]
Yes, my post specifically mentioned that it was is a pure Java desktop. The JavaOS project was stillborn, and I think Sun cancelled it many years ago.
But why doesn’t someone try and start up a project — preferably as open source — to create an OS written in Java…and no I cannot; I’m not a programmer?!
Michael Lauzon Posted on 2003-10-10 18:26:51
But why doesn’t someone try and start up a project — preferably as open source — to create an OS written in Java…
Probably because it would be too slow to run effectively on current hardware (despite all the “advances” Java has apparently made in speed).
Remember when Netscape was going to write portions of its browser in Java? Abandoned because of poor performance. Or when Corel announced they would create a full-featured office suite in Java – also abandoned (sorry, but Think Office doesn’t count as a fully-featured office suite).
Could these projects be implemented now using the current version of Java? Perhaps, but what kind of hardware would they require to run acceptably? I think the usual retort from Java advocates about upgrading your hardware or waiting for faster PCs to be a very poor advert for this language.
Anyway, Java is here to stay, and it’s certainly enjoying great success on the server-side. But, in my opinion, too many people have fallen for Sun’s hype about platform “lock-in” and hence their eagerness to use a language that promises “write once, run anywhere”.
This corward reply who brand anyone that doesn’t agree with him as a troll just ruin the reputation of OSS community. We cannot change the fact taht MSOffice is still superior for office works. But OSS community must take it as a challenge to write a better alternative.
To Raynier;
During my early days with computer (during that time MS office product is still a laughing pig) I used WordPerpect. But the lack of innovation and greed (in my opinion) lead WordPerfect to what it is nowdays. And I not the one that got carried away with nostalgia. I agree if you would say MS is also a greedy monster but they will never show their evil face until the are very sure you cannot escape.
I’m also doing the coding things in Linux but of course with the correct tools. I’m not gonna use OO or MSOffice for that. But I need those office application for report writing or large document.
Many may say there are KWord, Abiword etc. but most of it except OO are as same level as WordPerfect during my early days and it is not my intention to downgrade those product but put it as my challenge to improve. Although many aspect need works but the ‘table’ function may contribute a lot. OO need to improve the speed very much. As a joke but also a reality, I can go to restroom while waiting OO to open or save document.
I gave it a shot a while back, essentially it was going to be used for low powered computers. The base was DOS and the windowing environment was Java. Essentially it was like their Java based thin clients they released then quickly pulled after sales fell through the floor.
Keep in mind that JDS is not meant to compete with other Linux distros. It is meant to be a simple and effective corprate desktop for fixed function users. No, most of the geeks reading this will not be impressed by it.
It is targetted at companies that haves hoards of users who need email and an office suite. Where Sun is putting their expertise (which may not be in the beta live-CD) is in “enterprise management” of the desktop … being able to manage those hundreds or thousands of identical desktops.
The basic idea is, IMHO, “let’s provide a solution which meets the needs of the millions of fixed function office workers out there, at a price point which *severely* undercuts Microsoft’s price”.
All the while being cheaper that Windows+MSOffice.
Mark
PS I work for a company that works for Sun. Takes my comments as you will … I’ve been a “Sun guy” since 1998, a “Linux guy” since 1993, and a UNIX guy (HP-UX) since 1991. At home I have 4 systems: 3 PCs running Gentoo and one Ultra 5 running Solaris 9.
I agree with Mark’s point.
If JDS succeeds, then it will open doors for other Linux distro too. Then we as IT folks will really have a choice on what we serve to our internal customers. Right now the situation is just damn embarrasing as IT simply cannot provide an alternative. When Linux runs the desktop, IT will have both choice and control, while maintaining a common base.
Regards
yong
Jedit is neither Notepad, nor Wordpad equivalent. i cannot believe people are compairing it with those. Jedit is far beyond, for me the most enhanced programming editor, IDE ever created. please..
Looks like Sun is just playing on the successful “Java” name to boost their Linux distro.
> AS for the ugly theme, I dunno. The desktop in the
> screenshots looks good to me, if rather typical.
It may just be my eyes, but the close/maximize/minimize buttons in the windows are hard to see
> Also, why no discussion of the software? What version
> of the kernel? Is Sun hosting its own update service?
Read the last line in the article:
“The Sun Java Desktop System beta live-CD features the 2.4.19 Linux Kernel “
Why bother paying sun a fortune to have a SuSE box with a slightly improved GNOME setup than SuSE’s own?
A lot of SuSE users have found that ULB-GNOME ( http://www.usr-local-bin.org ) provides them with their ideal desktop. People have abandoned XD2 in favour of ULB, and even been pulled away from using KDE by it.
Why bother paying sun a fortune to have a SuSE box with a slightly improved GNOME setup than SuSE’s own?
/me wonders why he bothers even explaining
SUN offer and end to end solution for businesses. The Java desktop is not for Joe or Jane “I must try every OS in the known universe” Geek, SUN’s target audience is the corporate sector. They have a large list of customers who use their servers, why not sell them a integrated desktop solution as part of a server/desktop package?
N.N. (IP: —.sdsl.catch.no) – Posted on 2003-10-11 23:43:26
“AS for the ugly theme, I dunno. The desktop in the screenshots looks good to me, if rather typical.”
It may just be my eyes, but the close/maximize/minimize buttons in the windows are hard to see
That is more of an idication of how crap the screenshots were than reality. Just look at GNOME 2.0 screenshots on http://www.sun.com/gnome and tell me that GNOME on Solaris looks that bad.
“Also, why no discussion of the software? What version of the kernel? Is Sun hosting its own update service?”
[i]Read the last line in the article:
“The Sun Java Desktop System beta live-CD features the 2.4.19 Linux Kernel “
Which would mean that it is based on the same kernel as United Linux, which uses NGPL instead of NTPL.
Linux dose not need another Desktop OS to compete with MS. Linux need application to compete with MS not 2 billion linux based desktops. MS holds the marked not because it a good OS but because when you go to staples, compusa, bestbuy, DELL, COMPAQ… or any other store/company that sells computers or computer stuff people see MS windows and windows software and that is what they buy. The average user dosn’t know linux exist, or if they do they are not going to try it if they can’t get/buy software for it. If a user can’t use the desktop and software at home and they are the one who writes the check at work they are going to purchase MS because of the name and amount of software that they see available for it and they are not going to edit the *.conf file, or do a make/make install they want it to work “out of the box”. I know that in my network we can not move to linux because the software that we use and need is not available or is not up to par with the windows software. we don’t mind spending money on software as long as it is quatily software and we know that the software will do 100% of what we want it to do.