With the push of a new campaign, Tools to Compete, Microsoft has effectively admitted that they see Linux as a legitimate threat. Even with the massive reduction in the cost of Windows in big deals, Microsoft has still lost customers. It almost causes one to ask – a passing trend, or the beginning of the end?
Microsoft Ups Competition With Linux
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Adam Scheinberg
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Please let it be so!
Microsoft needn’t be bankrupt, just trimmed down in size by a factor of 20 or so…
Ah, more free marketing for Linux!
>> Available in the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico
Ah, bummer..
Gosh – for Microsoft to produce an extra cd to help fight off competition means that Linux has made it – i can’t think of any other product that is on microsofts hitlist so overtly.
This is all most of us level headed Linux users ask. Prices drop,
quality grows, & you stop trying to decide what we want. Microsoft
has great resources if alittle competition pushes them to make the
changes we want, great!
We now have cheaper pricing, far greater quality of products and
a few ‘wannabe’ open source/protocol solutions. Even if you’re a
Windows user, Linux is benifiting you. That being said Windows
still has a LONG way to go in it’s features and direction of
It’s company before I’ll use it as often as I do Linux.
Begining of the end? On the desktop?? Naah!, not a chance, MS is still up by 95 yo 98%!!!! But hopefully, the desktop will soon get more heterogenous! Even a 20% of Microsoft will be a lot!
“MS is still up by 95 yo 98%!!!
I wish people would stop perpetrating that lie.
Windows and the free unix-like OSes (not just Linux) will continue to co-exist for many years. In my opinion, both can have a place within the world.
People, countries, will do what’s best, which almost always has something to do with saving money. MS can and will compete on price– in far off lands (to me, here in the US). Ms might try to make up the difference by not relenting their stranglehold on American consumers (read: Americans). That’s why the only reason for me to kick MS out of my life is politics. Gates is a maniac, so wealthy it has made him sick. MS is beyond successful, but there is no reason the company should continue running things.
If we all choose software merely by practical reasons, primarily cost, none of us would switch and stay switched. We’ll debate about the various merits of OSes, and our loathing of MS will surface, but in the end we’ll allow MS to keep stealing from us.
I want to see the pigs go away and slop in another trough–those far away lands– and that’s why I’m willing to overlook the still substantial handicap Linux has competing w MS. The applications can’t compare for “art”–music, graphics, EG–and the spiffiest computers all have MS loaded. That’s why, for music, say, I’m willing to buy dedicated hardware, such as Roland’s or Yamaha’s, instead of trying to run a production studio on a computer using Linux apps, which are years and years behind MS and Mac. I’m aware of the best Linux has to offer, and it doesn’t compare. But, again, practical reasons would have me feeding the pigs, and I prefer to get out of the sty.
As other’s here have indicated, this is good news. The problem with Microsoft is that they were a monopoly. The fact that a new guy is breaking through is going to break that monopoly somewhat. This force Microsoft to improve their products, and actually compete.
What is interesting is that Open Source is really the only “company” that has been able to compete toe-to-toe with Microsoft. Microsoft can’t buy it out, and can’t hide from it. So they are force to build better products. In 5 years from now (or possibly even sooner), the average user will choose to by a Microsoft system because he wants one, not because it’s really the only option.
In the last year, I have noticed that Linux has been able to beat out Microsoft on features, even when the solution is more expensive (take Munich for example). Microsoft is now having to compete once again. I am sure they can compete, but with Open Source not having to really answer to shareholders, we have the ‘funding’ and ability to compete.
Anyways, this is good news. Not because of any desire to see Microsoft fall, but because it can potentially give end users more choice with better alternatives.
“MS is still up by 95 yo 98%!!!
I wish people would stop perpetrating that lie.
————-
Why is that a lie? %98 might be high but %95 seems low.
scan your subnet and id be surprised if you find one linux box
Untill last year we had horrid fonts buggy gui’s and broken
applications, with office suites, KDE,Gnome, Mozilla, and evoultion
being darn good applications you might see that number slip but
lets not forget %90 of the desktop ppl out there don’t even know what
linux is much less want to use it.
How about start treating your OEM and resellers a little better instead of ramming out 120 day evaluation CD’s.
I used to run a company (Invent Networks), and put it this way, Microsoft couldnd’t give a shit about their reselling channel. Talk to SUN, Apple, Lotus, Corel or what ever and they’ll bend over backwards for you and in some cases send out a full version copy of their software so that you as the reseller can familarise themselves with the product and thus being able to address customer queries.
Why should *I* then go to the effort to resell Windows equipped servers and clients when I could *EASILY* convince the client that it would be in their best interests to go with Linux, FreeBSD or Solaris solution.
Also, setting up “websites” like that just confirms Microsofts continuous programme of being condescending approach when trying to get people on board. How about Microsoft realising that their reseller channel partners aren’t morons, they aren’t idiots and most are capable or actually pitching the value of a particular product with out the vendor screaming the latest buzz words into their ear.
At this current point of time I personally would not feel confortable recommending Microsoft products with what has been going down. Bugs come and go but when fixes don’t actually fix the problem or 21 bus (Internet Explorer) aren’t even corrected when the information is made available to them, then one really asks themselves, “why should I put my reputation on the line for a company who just can’t be bothered providing the necessary updates for their products”.
Face the facts dude…98% or 95% whatever it may be is the facts at least for now.
Just becuase you don’t use Windows doesn’t change the fact that most average users do.
Provide a source. Please ensure that your source properly counts computers that have been reloaded and their Windows licenses disgarded as Linux desktops and NOT Windows desktops, as well as all download installations in your statistics.
’nuff said
Is estimated at around 90% (low) to 95% (high). A safe be would be around 92.5%.
Of course, that’s counting registered Linux users – and since there’s a lot more unregistered than registered Linux users (and that many Linux browsers masquerade as Windows for Web site compatibility), We can probably shave off a few percents off of that score. So 90% is probably a much better estimate. It’s still high, but not as high as the 95 to 98% thrown around.
Oh, and the percent sign goes after the number, not before.
“MS is still up by 95 yo 98%”
The most accurate estimate about desktop market share is Google’s zeitgeist. http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html
According to this, MS has a market share of 91% at this moment. Mac has 3%, Linux 1%.
The rest (5%) is market “other”.
Face the facts dude…98% or 95% whatever it may be is the facts at least for now.
Just becuase you don’t use Windows doesn’t change the fact that most average users do.
Great, now how many of those desktops are being utilised or are they simply being used as cheap thin clients in banks, government departments etc to interact with a mainframe. Oh, btw, the letters you receive from a government department etc are a basic template that resides on the mainframe and a batch process is done at the end of each week and sent out all at once.
Also, what happens if the organisation is using a thin client such as a SUN Ray, is the use of Solaris considered as one installation or does it get counted by the number of clients hooked up to the server?
Microsoft is starting to have hard time. Now they are not facing an other company but a community. Linux is one of the best OS because tousand of developpers are working on it (thanks to them). Secondly, a lot of people are tired to be treated by microsoft like milk cows. Cunsummers are paying the same product every 2 or 3 years….Moreover microsoft commercial tactics IBM and other computer firm to propote linux…Is the beginning of a new area ?
I have been in this business a long time and I think what Microsoft has destroyed most is “Choice” and I think that is what Linux in bring back to the market “A choice”!
According to this French Website :
http://www.toolinux.com/lininfo/news/news/news20030918004121.htm
9 cities in Germany (and big ones among them) are going to switch from Windows to Linux. The agreement between Microsoft and these cities are to be ended soon. A anonymous Linux distributor is on the deal (Redhat ? MandrakeSoft ? SuSE ?).
Even if Microsoft won a battle in Bade Wurtemberg thanks to the collaboration of Siemens (who is on the utmost committed to Microsoft), it seems that Microsoft is fading away on Germany.
Anyone could confim that ?
If you know anything about astrology, then yes (at least,the end of the way Microsoft has viewed “property” lately, and the end of the notion of the “servant/master” “producer/gullet” model.
The Age of Aquarius isn’t even in full swing yet (it takes about 500 years before it starts to peak, and will start to dwindle 1000 years later.) In the 1000-year peak, notions like Linux, open-source, free access to information, and non-hierarchical models for doing things, will be pretty-much taken for granted as background features to human life.
In other words, Linux is just the distant whistle from a coming freight train.
In a Christian mode, Linus isn’t even like John the Baptist; more like one of the early prophets or judges.
Does this say the 1000 years will be accompanied by no starvation, no war, and human fellowship beyond our wildest dreams? I have no idea. Nor do I have any reason to believe an astrologer, beyond the fact that ther *are* new modes of thought about freedom of the mind, and those modes of thought are causing established, wealthy institutions to try and put up barriers to prevent implementation. Such barriers cannot hold forever.
People will most likely use what they still are using for the desktops in the business environment. Most IT managers that I have come across won’t accept Linux or BSD because it’s something you can compile yourself. Most cannot feel secure if “hackers” have access to the code behind your server / firewall or whatever. I would say that if MS Windows isn’t in the 95% or more, it’s up there, I would say the Macintosh is next. I know a whole lot of people who are converted over to OS X because it’s easy to use, and has unix as the kernel. Easy and stable is what people want, Linux is stable for my uses, to me it’s easy, but for others they don’t have the same experience with it so they won’t even try.
Coming to think of it, I wonder how many people are running Open Source applications under Windows.
I mean, if I were running Windows as my main OS as an end user, I would not just go and switch to Linux. I would probably start switching Applications that have a good Open Source alternative, like OpenOffice, Mozilla and the Gimp.
The OS is the last thing people switch, not the first. People that do want to switch can be expected to start by switching one application at a time.
Too bad there’s virtually no data on Open Source usage under Windows.
The important point here is that the people who really count are changing their views the ones who lead the pack. Most of that 90% or so are placed there by people who made a decision from on high, for example 14000 PCs in Munich, these are the people who are noticing, these are the people whos necks are on the line if Blaster or whatever takes their system down.
Now it appears there are alternatives and the lowest common denominator is not the only viable choice. It also appears that in fact there may be a competitive advantage in a system if a percentage of the workforce don’t have to spend their time running around patching the systems and can do other valuable work instead.
These are the important indicators that remove the MS inertia, finally competition is a driving force again this good for everyone, for those who don’t like MS and soon won’t have to kowtow to their whims anymore. Also for those who do like MS who will get a better system due to the fact they are being forced to wake up from the slumber of dominance and create competitive systems.
http://www.toolinux.com/lininfo/news/news/news20030918004121.htm
9 cities in Germany (and big ones among them) are going to switch from Windows to Linux. The agreement between Microsoft and these cities are to be ended soon. A anonymous Linux distributor is on the deal (Redhat ? MandrakeSoft ? SuSE ?).
Even if Microsoft won a battle in Bade Wurtemberg thanks to the collaboration of Siemens (who is on the utmost committed to Microsoft), it seems that Microsoft is fading away on Germany.
Siemens doesn’t sell linux equiped desktops but buts sells Linux servers, in partnership with Fujitsu as well as selling UltraSparc based UNIX servers and heaps of other ultra high end equipment. To simply call Siemens a Microsoft backer is no more false than saying that IBM, HP or Dell are a Microsoft backers.
“Most IT managers that I have come across won’t accept Linux or BSD because it’s something you can compile yourself.”
Those are some bizarre IT managers you’ve got right there. IT managers I know won’t accept closed-source solutions like Windows because it’s something you CAN’T analyze/fix/compile yourself.
I know Siemens is not only a Microsoft Backer. But in Germany, Siemens a signed an agreement with Microsoft to fight the IBM/SuSE consortium.
Without Siemens all the Germany would be switching from Windows to Linux. But Siemens is here and fight Linux as far as they can. They fought SuSE in Munich. They defeated SuSE in Hamburg. They won a battle in Bade Wurtemberg to provide Windows Server 2003 and Windows XP. They are fighting Linux and IBM all around Germnay in order to provide Windows based solutions.
I don’t know the sitation in Asia or in the USA, but Siemens is the main allied of Microsoft in Germany.
May be Microsoft holds shares in Siemens.
But dude, Microsoft is not going to last forever!. Some day it will fall like the house of cards. And one point to say “History always repeated itself” and Microsoft is not an Exception to this.
People will most likely use what they still are using for the desktops in the business environment. Most IT managers that I have come across won’t accept Linux or BSD because it’s something you can compile yourself. Most cannot feel secure if “hackers” have access to the code behind your server / firewall or whatever. I would say that if MS Windows isn’t in the 95% or more, it’s up there, I would say the Macintosh is next. I know a whole lot of people who are converted over to OS X because it’s easy to use, and has unix as the kernel. Easy and stable is what people want, Linux is stable for my uses, to me it’s easy, but for others they don’t have the same experience with it so they won’t even try.
I think the main problem is this. People don’t know what IT is and how to use it with in their organisation. Plain and simple. Talk to a IT guy and they’ll tell you “oh, its so they can do office stuff” and employees will say, “oh, so I can write a letter”.
That isn’t the purpose of IT. The purpose/roll of IT in an organisation is to fullfill a certain set of tasks and unfortunately, instead management seeing IT as a tractor, truck or hammer, they see it as some sort of magical box that can solve all of their business problems when in actual fact it is nothing more than a glorified number cruncher.
This will most likely come back to many consultants; talk to a customer and ask, “what do you want” and they’ll say, “oh, I need Word, Excel, Outlook, Internet Explorer and server” etc etc, when what they SHOULD be saying is, “oh, I need a office suite that allows macro recording, an email client with built in organiser facilities and a web browser”.
See the difference. There is weird association people assuming that Microsoft *IS* software when in actual fact they would be alot better off writing down what they need in terms of solutions rather than writing down a shopping list of what products they want to purchase.
I’ve talked to several SUN consultants and they pull their hair out when people think that Outlook *IS* email and Internet Explorer *IS* the internet. These are mearly applications and can be replaced, what *SHOULD* be looked at is what they produce. If Mozilla does everything that Internet Explorer does, but better, why use Internet Explorer? If Evolution 1.4.3 does everything Outlook does, but better, why use Outlook.
Again I stress, people need to *MOVE AWAY* from saying “I need Office” to specifics, “I need an office suite that does [list of desired features]”.
Yes the browser I’m using right now (opera) says MSIE so I’m well
aware of that. My point is almost all internet statistics like this
are flawed so I tend not to trust them.
I use to work at compUSA, I now work at a hardware store that does
consultant work for regular Joes aswell as businesses. I can assure
you 1 out of 20 ppl are not using Linux as a desktop, infact the
only one I know was a co-worker who does development for Gentoo.
I mean XP has been out for what 2 years and are still a blip on the Radar compared to win98/me users. Change takes time and Linux has
only just now gotten fairly useable for non students/IT people.
And thanks for correcting me, I always assumed % goes before the number just like $’s =)
When I read that too, I was wondering, isn’t Puerto Rico in all practice and purposes except in elections, a state of US. Okay, okay, a autonomous state, but…?
—
I would like to point out that if indeed Microsoft is losing share, that Linux success had nothing to do with antitrust help. They seem pretty fine on their own, right? Hmmph… Besides, I think Microsoft would be trimmed only to something like Palm in their market. Numbero uno player, however not so dominant anymore.
I use staroffice, gimp, gaim, and also litestep, Litestep is a non *nix port but it’s OSS :-)on my winxp workstation. But migrating one application at a time is a great idea, could also use cygwin environment for conversion also, get people used to X and Window Managers if that is the route that a manager will go.
BTW, the Microsoft “Tools to Compete” site hanged Mozilla 1.5 beta on Linux, but Mozilla Firebird 0.6.1 seems to run fine though.
MS is toast pure and simple. The open source movement keeps pulling in more and more companies and people. I give this ten years before open source (probably linux)has 50% or more marketing share on shipping desktops. I don’t know how MS will or can fight this.
Same FUD the linux and ABM guys were spewing years ago, and nothing has changed.
It’s not going to happen just because you believe it will.
Most of us who run Windows are in it only for the apps. I think you’re going to see that the more ‘industrial strength’ apps that are released for Linux, that more us Windows users are going to jump ship.
Yeah, we hate MS and we don’t particularly like Windows, but we’re pretty fond of the apps
“It’s not going to happen just because you believe it will.”
I agree with that.
It’s going to happen because it makes plain common sense.
Open Source simply delivers more bang for the buck in an ever increasing number of situations. That’s all there is to it.
The rest is just a matter of time.
Linux is 12 years old and it’s now the fist threat for Microsoft so you cannot tell whats will happend in the future…In alomost 10 years, the open source community emerges and it’s a serious challanger for the kings of Redmont….
don’t overstep the mark i think churchill’s comment best describes this.
“it’s not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning”
SO true. I can remember a quiz a while ago on UK TV and it said ‘What is a computerized version of an old paper accounting sheet with rows and columns?’. They gave the answer of ‘Excel’.
I, however, like the KDE idea – adding ‘K’ too it. Koffice, Kword. Obviously most of the apps are not like this, but people will work it out if a couple are called something they know and trust.
Linux, after the dot-com crash, suffered. A lot of companies with employee’s which worked on the linux and related projects got made redundent, leaving them with no time too hack. However Linux is bouncing back. As someone said the Linux of today is unrecognizable from the Linux of 2 years ago. We now have nice fonts, and GNOME is looking really good – however we are only starting too get the ease of use we need. Only now a resolution changer is shipped with standard with GNOME. Ease of use is the only thing that is holding linux back, but big strides are being made with it.
“Too bad there’s virtually no data on Open Source usage under Windows.”
In my own experience, ever since we became a “windows shop”, I’ve had to use open-source apps underground, even when they were the best solution.
If you understand the culture-Hell that Microsoft has created for Windows in the enterprise, you’ll understand why.
Basically, we’re talking about 3 features:
Arrogance
arrogance, and
arrogance.
In other words, “just do it this way, and shut your mouth. If you insist on doing it another way, don’t bring it to amyone’s attention.”
This seems to be true a lot of places.
I’m not talking here about the run-of-the-mill user, who may want to be easily supported; that kind of situation has fairly easy-to-understand parameters which are quite similar in *all* arrangement and platforms–keep it simple, stupid.
However, I’m talking here about special situations, where Microsoft and it’s corporate allies are perfectly happy to hamstring people if it means preventing the use of free software.
I’ve been in a few “higher-up” type meetings that had Microsoft reps present, and I know this to be true. The only time they cave on this is if there’s a lot of pressure from the client.
I can assure you that 19 out of 20 Linux people can fix their own desktop.
“It’s going to happen because it makes plain common sense. ”
that is it. I agree. The economics of open source are better than the economics of MS. Its going to take time to displace MS but it is already happening. MS is going to have to do some serious soul searching. Lawsuits won’t save them here because linux is already being supported by too many big guns (say ibm).
Face it this beast has too many head and is too decentralized for MS to win. Outside of MS’ legal attack through SCO well they have no one to go after, and that will fail anyhow. How do you defend against an enemy that has nothing to attack?
…the above was also true when IBM was the 700-pund gorilla. I was near blows with their telecommunications rep when I told them SDLC cards were too expensive for us, and that we wanted an error-free comm solution that used async serial ports that were standard on XT’s. When I argued that RS-232 async was practically ubiquitous, the guy told me “well, we could easily stop bundling that with our computers.” When I told him they would lose business big-time in that case, he just laughed, as if to say “We’re IBM. We do what we want.”
It’s true that Internet statistics should be taken with a grain of salt – but that is also true of your experience. The fact that you don’t see Linux users as customers for your store cannot possibly give you an indication of Linux’s market share. For one, it could simply be that your area has a lower concentration of Linux users. Also, there are countries where Linux has a higher Desktop penetration (remember, we’re not only talking about the American Desktop, here).
Furthermore – and that’s probably the biggest factor here – most Linux users still tend to be people that are quite knowledgeable about computers, and who either try to figure out problems on their own, or go to the Internet for support. In other words, not the kind of people who would seek out consultants, especially if they don’t believe that the consultants will be familiar with Linux (personally, whenever I call my ISP’s tech support, I pretend to use Windows and just type /etc/init.d/network restart when they ask me to reboot my machine…otherwise they just tell me: “uh, we don’t support Linux, sir…”).
I mean XP has been out for what 2 years and are still a blip on the Radar compared to win98/me users.
That’s also quite incorrect: XP has been gaining a lot of ground (if only because it’s installed by default on new computers). While there still might be more Win98 desktop, WinXP is far from being just a blip – again, I feel you base your estimates on your own personal sample, and anyone who’s ever done statistics will tell you that this is the absolute worst thing to do in order to get an accurate picture. Even Internet statistics are more reliable than such estimates…
Damn, I wish I’d worded it like that… 🙂
“If Mozilla does everything that Internet Explorer does, but better, why use Internet Explorer? If Evolution 1.4.3 does everything Outlook does, but better, why use Outlook.”
Absolutely. However, contrary to popular [linux user] belief, some of us windows users HAVE tried the alternatives and flat-out don’t like them. I have yet to find a set of programs that works better than what i have (and i have almost a complete MS computer as far as productivity stuff goes). So why would i want to switch? I wouldn’t. I’m constantly testing the alternatives waiting for something that works for me, but it hasn’t come yet. I’ll continue looking.
All you linux-backers just remember that not all Windows/MS users are idiots that can’t find the power button.
The entire open movement reminds me a bit of ARM in the sense that you can purchase the same product (an arm processor) from multiple vendors.
that means you get multi-vendor support, less risk, greater flexibility to tell your partner to buzz off if they get lazy or fat.
with linux you can get the distro (and support) from various candidates or i suppose on your own via download. That equates to multi-vendor support. It means if redhat starts irritating you then you split an go to suse or whatever without having a massive changeover. Can’t do that with MS. MS has you trapped. No one likes being trapped.
Multi-vendor support is EXTREMELY important. That feature alone might prove to be enough for open source to injure MS severely.
Microsoft is lowering prices in an attempt to recapture lost or potential future business. Once they’ve done that, it will be back to business (read: pricing practices) as usual. And don’t think that their outrages prices don’t get passed on to consumers indirectly. You and I are supporting Microsoft even if we don’t use it. So we need to continue supporting the development of Open Source software.
Does anyone have any idea what would happen to computer chip prices if AMD went out of business?
Before everyone thinks it’s the end for M$, check these statistics out from Google Zeitgeist 2002 (would be interesting to see 2003 if it were available).
W98 30%, WXP 37%, W2000 20%, WNT 3%, W95 1%, Mac 3%, Linux 1%, others 5%.
Linux is on the same level as W95, and W95 is considered dead in the water.
Those are some bizarre IT managers you’ve got right there. IT managers I know won’t accept closed-source solutions like Windows because it’s something you CAN’T analyze/fix/compile yourself.
The IT managers I know are awesome managers, but have been using MS products since DOS. They are hardcore MS followers and I am trying to open their eyes a bit to the rest of the OS world
Forget your idea about the possible death of Microsoft. Every user are happy with their Windows OS, no Linux user is willing to pay 50$ for getting a native Linux game (they prefer buying WineX and a Windows Game)
That is a shame but it si the truth
Some people will never run Microsoft software anymore. I know i’m not the only one:). The problem is Microsoft is so powerful that they integrated the mobile and gameconsole market. Nevertheless, as long as certain standards are open (ie. IPv4/IPv6) and not ie. there is certain security (DRM required to get on the net) then there’s little to worry about. Consider yourself lucky Window isn’t popular on the server market.
“Linux is on the same level as W95, and W95 is considered dead in the water.”
I’m not even gonna comment on this sentence. I hope you see yourself how stupid it sounds when you state one fact and then a comparision.
We call that a fallacy.
Oh and ofcourse i’m not even gonna order that progaganda. I have other things to do. I hope people will look futher then their nose is long… ’cause else it would be sad…
PS: Lies, damn lies, statistics. Imo, just do what ye like. When you bind yourself to much to such statistics -which aren’t correct anyways- then you can get disfocused…
>>and the spiffiest computers all have MS loaded.
Sorry, the spiffiest computers all have OSX loaded.
And scanning your network to count the number of Linux versus Windows boxes isn’t reliable at all. My linux boxes all report themselves as Windows for compatibility reasons.
“Forget your idea about the possible death of Microsoft. Every user are happy with their Windows OS, no Linux user is willing to pay 50$ for getting a native Linux game (they prefer buying WineX and a Windows Game)”
I certainly hope that was sarcasm
I would think that W95 was higher up on the percentage, I use to do support for an isp, and 90 % of my callers were using Windows 95 A / B, they were from the south so that can be a clue
“Forget your idea about the possible death of Microsoft.”
What you say? You think the earth will exist forever?
“Every user are happy with their Windows OS”
You think everyone who uses Windows is happy? I’m not happy when i have to use Windows ‘OS’. You don’t call me a user? Besides that, one doesn’t chose an OS only on the fact if they’re happy with the OS or not. There are way more reasons. For example think about indeed political ideas, alternatives, knowledge, propaganda, depression, just having it work, conservatism, etcetera.
“no Linux user is willing to pay 50$ for getting a native Linux game (they prefer buying WineX and a Windows Game)”
First of all you can mail Transgaming and ask them how many Linux users have paid for it. Or are those aliens who bought it? Windows users? Pets perhaps?
Secondly, some games work with WINE. WINE has DirectX support as well. Nanana. Not that good, though, but working for some games.
Third, a problem which contributes to this lies in the fact that we’re dealing with closed source apps/games. Nobody can contribute or add to it, and it only runs on one platform. Conservative, not progressive.
Fourth, not every Linux user wants to run those games. There are native games (i prefer native + opensource). Tell me, you ever played Nethack?
check out this awesome list: http://www.icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php (56k6 users: beware, lots of data. HAHAHAHArgh)
Fifth, if you already have the games (and/or you warez them) then $50 is not much.
Sixth, one can warez WineX.
Seventh, there are other reasons why not wanting to run WineX: http://www.timedoctor.org/boycott_winex.php (and those are just a vision on the whole aspect).
Eight, not everyone cares about games.
Damn, i didn’t take it to the 10…
“That is a shame but it si the truth”
IMNSHO: Shortsighted / Liar / Troll
“Sorry, the spiffiest computers all have OSX loaded.”
No sorry, I feel my computer is pretty spiffy, and it has fbsd on it
>>>and the spiffiest computers all have MS loaded.
>Sorry, the spiffiest computers all have OSX loaded.
Sorry, the spiffiest computers all have OS’s loaded.
😛 LOL
Uh, most gamers prefer game consoles, so what’s your point? Desktop isn’t game only – and to tell you the truth, since MS is so prevalent, it can really only go downhill from there! The speed at which it happens is not important: what counts is that Linux’s march on the Desktop is unstoppable, IMO. Little by little we’ll chip away at MS’s dominance, though I don’t think Windows will ever disappear – anyway, what we want is not to destroy MS, just to remove its monopoly status.
Speaking of Game Consoles, the next PlayStation is rumored to run on Linux. Since Sony might decide to make it a set-top box “Entertainment Center” with some computing abilities (mail, web, etc.), it is very possible that a lot more people might actually be running Linux in their home in the not-so-distant future…
Ah, another discussion about this. This time the OSS world (which I am part of, but not nescesarilly proud of) is irritated because MS launches this particular site. There are millions of anti-‘M$’ (how I hate that childish $) sites, but no one seems to have a problem with that. If you hit someone (espacially when it’s an American
), you can expect to be hit back.
“Most of us who run Windows are in it only for the apps. I think you’re going to see that the more ‘industrial strength’ apps that are released for Linux, that more us Windows users are going to jump ship.
Yeah, we hate MS and we don’t particularly like Windows, but we’re pretty fond of the apps
”
In one word: nonsense. Companies now bringing “industrial strength” apps to Windows, want to see money for it. No matter how you look at it, they’ll want money for their Linux apps too. So the “lower cost” motivation to switch, dissapears.
“Linux is 12 years old and it’s now the fist threat for Microsoft so you cannot tell whats will happend in the future…In alomost 10 years, the open source community emerges and it’s a serious challanger for the kings of Redmont….”
Again, pure nonsense. MS has already competed with major companies before (IBM (OS/2) and Apple (Mac OS)), succesfully (succesfully businesswise that is, not productwise). What makes you think they’ll not be able to halt the Linux rise? I see Linux as a, with respect of course, guerrila group. Good when it comes to defense, and short, but sometimes powerfull attacks, but they’ll never crush their enemies. Vietnam: USA’s still there. Irak: USA’s still there. With still there I of course don’t mean IN those particular countries, but I mean the US still exists. Although Irak could pose a serious threat
.
Even though I like Linux (I like BeOS more though) I don’t think Linux will take over the desktop. I think Linux’ desktop market share won’t go beyond 8-10%. To succesfully counteract MS, we’ll need something new, something fresh (too bad some companies have “focus shifts”
).
>>the next PlayStation is rumored to run on Linux. Since Sony might decide to make it a set-top box “Entertainment Center” with some computing abilities (mail, web, etc.), it is very possible that a lot more people might actually be running Linux in their home in the not-so-distant future…
And don’t forget, anyone who has a TiVo is already running Linux in their home and they don’t even know it. 🙂
It isn’t the software companies that mostly want Linux. Its the hardware guys. Like IBM. IBM wants an inexpensive OS to load onto as many computers as it can without paying a dime. So will SUN too, although it will charge for its distro. Too often now, Microsoft makes more money on each computer sold preloaded than the vendors. Which is unfair, because Microsoft spends far less per computer than any hardware vendor.
Think, $100 less, or maybe say, $50, or 40 for preloads less. Then add Office, Antivirus, etc. You will come up with a pretty 100-150 extra for the software alone. I can similaryly configure a Linux box that will do the job for, well, $150 less. YMMV. Of course, people will talk about using Openoffice instead of MS Office, but then thats the idea. Imagine how much better your PC would be if you spent 150 more on the hardware.
And your guerilla analogy has some pretty fatal flaws. If in terms of fighting over a piece of land, then the Vietnamese won!!
Vietnam: USA’s still there. […] With still there I of course don’t mean IN those particular countries, but I mean the US still exists.
Uh, dude, apart from the fact that your analogy stinks, the U.S. lost in Viet-Nam. It was beaten. Now we’re not setting out to destroy MS, but to beat it.
The reason MS won’t be able to “compete” against Linux the same way it did against OS/2 is that Linux does not belong to IBM, or to any company. It is not so much an product as a movement, an enemy unlike any MS has ever seen. In fact, it’s been fighting that enemy for years now (re: Halloween Documents) – and yet Linux has continued to grow. So, they’re fighting it, but instead of becoming weaker it becomes stronger…do you begin to see the trend, here?
BTW I don’t really believe that you’re indeed “part of the OSS world.” I think you only say that because it gives you an aura of authority – just like if I said: “yeah, I work at Microsoft, but I think our corporate practices are deplorable and that Linux is really good.” Now, that would sound a lot more credible than if I was just a Linux advocate, right? I think that’s what you’re doing here: posing as an OSS advocate while really trying to undermine it.
If you hit someone (espacially when it’s an American
), you can expect to be hit back.
So far, it’s been MS trying to hit Linux any way they can…so, following your logic, MS is about to get a nasty beating in return!
Trolling doesn’t dispense you from spellchecking: it’s “Linux”, with a “N.”
Now, weren’t you listening when we said that Linux is unlike any proprietary OS out there, because as long as there are people willing to code for it and use it, it cannot die?
“BTW I don’t really believe that you’re indeed “part of the OSS world.” I think you only say that because it gives you an aura of authority”
“I think that’s what you’re doing here: posing as an OSS advocate while really trying to undermine it.”
Well I don’t know if you know more than I do, but as far as I know, Mandrake and Lycoris and Debian and Slackware and Red Hat and … are pieces of Open-Source software. Since I use(d) these pieces of software, doesn’t that make me part of the “OSS-world”?
Maybe it’s just me, but…
Using != part of (imo). What do you give back the OSS community? Am i part of the Windows movement if i have a Windows 95 CD somewhere which i ran once?
Lets see – 850,000 increase in the number of web sites in the last two months of those only 84,000 were set up on Win2k3 (185,000 total sites on Win2k3 x 45% are “new service” sites). That leaves more than 760,000 new sites on something else. Add to that that Apache is gaining share and MS IIS has been loosing share (this has not turn around in the last 2 months). Nearly all Windows sites using Apache are NT 4 servers finding Apache on a Win2k machine is rare and I have yet to see it on a single Win2k3 server. Therefore, for Apache to make the gains in share that it has, we must accept that while about 3,500 sites switched from Linux to Win2k3 that many many more switched from Windows to Linux or Unix.
Conclusion = At least on the web Linux/Unix is starting to kick some MS butt and and MS knows it. You can bet that Companies are starting to notice that better service can be had on the web servers using Linux for less $$$ than using Windows. You can bet MS is noticing many companies beginning to look elsewhere.
After note: Yes, some of those new sites are on Win2k and yes this includes shared hosting – which means that fewer than 850,000 servers went on line. Yes, This number does not include sites changing from one platform to another, and some new sites are offset by sites winking out, the 850,000 is the total increase of all sites on the web.
What’s really sad is that the “competition” HAS to be from a community and a group effort to have ANY sort of impact against Microsoft. M$ are smart business people and they are quick, clear and consistent thinkers. The greatest minds reside there. Even if their software doesn’t seem great to some of you (XP is good) they will still lead the tech industry, they will still continue to obsolete hardware every quarter and they still will be on top. It just depends on where they want to be with their business. Keep in mind that Microsoft has been sitting on billions of dollars in pure cash. They rarely make a detrimental move and they have continued to provide “decent” software at a low cost. I use Microsoft products at work, their partners are actually their community. 3rd party applications are what keeps Microsoft afloat.
The hardware needs to be made ‘obsolete’ as you put it (though, I’ve been using the same computer for 4yrs now, and it wasn’t anything special when I built it), it fuels the economy and allows the hardware companies to make some proffit, which in turn fuels more R&D to make more powerful hardware, which then allows the software companies more room to work with and are able to build even more powerful applications.
It is a ying and yang relationship, and is very much needed.
Please can someone get a source to this information !?
Lets see 33% Windows, 33% linux, and 33% Mac, the other 1% can be skyOS or some other hobby OS that gets mentioned here =)
I use Windows every day. So does that make me part of the Windows world? It depends if we’re talking about actual usage or personal preference. But I’ll go with usage, since this is what seems to be your criteria. Therefore, as a member of the Windows world, I’d like to reiterate that Microsoft’s corporate practices stink, and that I much prefer Linux to Windows…
Well, I don’t prefer one over the other; I use Windows, MDK, and BeOS (and I try out other OS’s as well). Windows for my day-to-day work and multimedia (esp. dvd), MDK mainly to mess around, try out this & that, and to experiment, and I use BeOS because BeOS is BeOS, can’t really explain.
The fact that I enjoy using MDK makes me part of the Linux/OSS world; the fact that I enjoy using Windows makes me part of the Windows world, the fact that I enjoy using BeOS makes me part of the BeOS world (no, the BeOS world hasn’t died yet).
The fact that I enjoy using Windowslinuxbeossolarisbsdskyosmsdosandmore makes me part of the COMPUTER world. I find that last one the most important one.
“Sorry, the spiffiest computers all have OSX loaded.”
yup. and the imac being the spiffiest of them all.
i don’t know what computers these other a-holes, who are claiming spiffiness, are using but i’d bet they all resemble a brick with holes punched into it. i know all my intel/amd pc’s do. and there really isn’t even a close 2nd runner-up, apple stands alone in computer design.
all the alternative pc designs (see-thru, neon, black, etc) are really talentless ugly designs by moron marketing people, and are not artistic at all. with practically all peripherals being usb/firewire there’s no excuse to make bricks any more. i’ve designed my own, but it took too much time – which is what happens when you don’t have the right tools (plastic & metal working equip). however, i do tend to put orignal paintings/murals on my boxen because of those large flat surfaces. what’s surprizing to me is that i’ve never seen anyone else do that.
Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the U.S. All citizens of Puerto Rico are citizens of the U.S. Puerto Rico is not a state — therefore, Puerto Rico does not have Senators or Representatives in Congress and does not participate in Presidential elections. However, Puerto Ricans, as U.S. citizens, are free to move anywhere in the U.S. and vote where they reside. In the past, Puerto Rico has held votes on whether to remain a commonwealth, try to become a U.S. state or seek independence. Staying with commonwealth status has won such votes.
Regards,
Mark
Puetro Rico has representatives in Congress. All of them are non-voting representatives but they still do have representation.
Somehow, this famous quote seems apropriate:
First, they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
Mahatma Ghandi.
“Forget your idea about the possible death of Microsoft. Every user are happy with their Windows OS, no Linux user is willing to pay 50$ for getting a native Linux game (they prefer buying WineX and a Windows Game)”
Not true at all. I used to buy my linux games from Loki, and still buy them from Tux Games so that they get a credit towards Linux users. I would rather see native support as Wine and WineX are just workarounds.
I was shocked this evening (Europe here) when I saw that Microsoft was providing tools to beat Linux. I tought, yeeeh, the battle is really on this time.
But, when I clicked, I got onto the marketing site, proposing me a CD with some marketing tricks to beat the pinguin.
Now that’s a disappointment !!
Man, I was really hoping to see some real competition here. But no, they’re gonna try to talk some bullshit into the community instead of giving some decent products.
I don’t know who thought of this CD, but he certainly has the brain like the guys who thought of the architecture of Windows …
Nice try though …
Hehe, Open Source is moving on … Mickeys, please get some real stuff. It’s almost a shame kicking your ass. Even Mike Tyson wouldn’t beat a kid, so don’t ask us Open Source programmers to put up some competition now. Get some defense first ….
It’s quite devious of Microsoft to sell a CD that’s clearly going to be anti-Linux. It means that it’s going to be hard to actually analyse and comment on what’s inevitably going to be a heavy spread of FUD emanating from it, because of – yep – copyright issues w.r.t. the CD contents.
So is someone going to buy it and at least review it (no, I’m not going to because Microsoft doesn’t deserve my money)?
I would be surprised if anyone buys it for any purpose OTHER than reviewing it, mocking it, and otherwise ripping it to shreds. I’m sure it’s going to be quite funny.
Related article about the XBox:
“Microsoft deleted my data – remotely, without my permission, and… without even bothering to ask!”
Link:
http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/docs/remotedelete.html
According to this, MS has a market share of 91% at this moment. Mac has 3%, Linux 1%.
The rest (5%) is market “other”.
Yes thats marketshare not user base. If you use user base Windows probably has around 80%. Either way I have a hard time figuring out how people can’t decide wether they have a monopoly with 80-90% of a market. Marketshare is what percentage of each OS was sold/installed during a certain (few months ) time frame.
Most of us who run Windows are in it only for the apps. I think you’re going to see that the more ‘industrial strength’ apps that are released for Linux, that more us Windows users are going to jump ship.
Yeah, we hate MS and we don’t particularly like Windows, but we’re pretty fond of the apps
You’re not alone. There is a flock of Mac users who would just love to see their graphics applications being made available on Linux x86. The big reason why many of them don’t move is because of the operating system and the idiosycracies.
If I were SUN, I would approach Adobe, Quark and Macromedia and ask, “how much do we have to pay you so that you can port your applications to Java Desktop System?”, find out the price, cut a cheque and be done with it. I could name atleast two handful of people who would drop their Mac overnight if all their software was available.
For small business, it is even EASIER. Want to get 95% of the Australian small business market? get MYOB on board, create a “small business combo” which includes Java Desktop System and MYOB, you’ll be able to grab marketshare off Microsoft overnight without any effort.
What I think Linus distro’s don’t realise is that to move people over, the big thing isn’t hardware support or an easy to use GUI, they’ve already been solved, what is needed is a larger amount mainstream ISV’s that can port their popular Windows applications to Linux.
“If Mozilla does everything that Internet Explorer does, but better, why use Internet Explorer? If Evolution 1.4.3 does everything Outlook does, but better, why use Outlook.”
Absolutely. However, contrary to popular [linux user] belief, some of us windows users HAVE tried the alternatives and flat-out don’t like them. I have yet to find a set of programs that works better than what i have (and i have almost a complete MS computer as far as productivity stuff goes). So why would i want to switch? I wouldn’t. I’m constantly testing the alternatives waiting for something that works for me, but it hasn’t come yet. I’ll continue looking.
All you linux-backers just remember that not all Windows/MS users are idiots that can’t find the power button.
My main focus audience for the original post are those who think that email equals Outlook or web browser equals Internet Explorer. I’ve seen many many people who run Outlook just so they can check their email. That is the equivilance of killing a flee with a canon.
In the above statement, replace any part with any popular application. Why use Internet Explorer when Opera *could* be a better solution?
Its the old, “oh, here is a better solution” and the manager says, “oh, but isn’t from [company]!”, and for some reason, because it isn’t from *THAT* company, it is obviously inferior.
Again, people should look at their requirements. After reading what you posted, what *IS* missing from OpenOffice.org and Evolution 1.4.3? what is stopping you from moving away from Windows? this is a smart-ass question, I am just curious. If there is something lacking in those applications it would be nice for it to be known so that the issue can be corrected and you need is satisfied.
I don’t know what feature of mozilla you would be missing, but I can see your evolution problem if your mail server uses MS Exchange, there are a lot of handy features that are used between Outlook and Exchange. If it’s just for home use then my idea doesn’t really apply
I can see in a business environment where migrating user’s desktops over to *nix would not be good, in cases like exchange where they purchased that application and perhaps teh server just for it and they are losing these features that go only between exchange and outlook.
Windoze and .Not is just too buggy to survive. Hope Linux kills it soon and save us.
Depends on what it’s being used for, my winxp workstation lasts the day with my abuse. While I was learning linux I needed a small router for my lan, I had a win98 box with nothing loaded but the routing software loaded and it lasted about 3 months uptime before bluescreening, can’t believe you call that buggy
But for servers, I saw something that with 2003 server they have a whopping 6 month uptime before a reboot is needed. That is not even counting security patches from the blaster/lovesan virus. Rebooting a precious server every 6 months would not be acceptible for my company.
Your *router* crashed after 3 months? A router does very little. It should run indefinately.
“But for servers, I saw something that with 2003 server they have a whopping 6 month uptime before a reboot is needed. That is not even counting security patches from the blaster/lovesan virus. Rebooting a precious server every 6 months would not be acceptible for my company.”
Consult your ophthalmologist. Windows Server 2003 was released on 24 april 2003. Almost 5 months ago. Counting, you said? Virusses, worms et all do count. Just like a security bug in the kernel of a BSD box does count.
As for your Windows 98 router. Try that on a 80386 with Windows 98. And which program did you used for routing? Afaik they all cost money. Finally, i’m wondering about your clue on security, ’cause Windows 98 TCP/IP stack sox mad cox. Routing also doesn’t give security for the boxes behind the router so you gotta use bridging + packet filtering instead of something simple like NAT + port forwarding. Makes me wonder how you do that on Windows 98 which has a bug which makes it crash every ~50 days.
Microsoft, a multi-billion dollar corporation, continues to see a confederation of open source projects as a threat? Sheesh, they must really suck.
AND some of us OTHER windows users HAVE tried the alternatives and flat-out fell in love with them and made a switch.
Seriously, u don’t like it fine use windows. I don’t think most ppl have that much of a problem with windows apps, except maybe stability and viruses (outlook) but i am guessing most ppl aren’t happy with the costs and this is what is prompting a shift.
But then u have paid for ur copiesof windows office etc., not interested in upgrading by all means definitely stick to it. I mean if the damn thing works for u why do a foolhardy thing like venturing into unknown territory. (Of course if u were me u would do it because its fun!! But then u aren’t me:)
What is this nonsense ? Microsoft is selling some anti-linux CD to those who have money to throw away but, at the same time, their main website is hidden behind a linux server (I just checked it on Netcraft). Why should people listen to them when they don’t even follow their own advice ?
Linux success will rise with emerging countries like China or India. Chinese goverment is pushing linux because windows cost too much. Moreover with linux, a market can be created for local computer companies. Now we see all the $ going to Redmont. Linux gives the choice, creat jobs in the country and can feel the digital gap between rich and poor countries…..
“Again, people should look at their requirements. After reading what you posted, what *IS* missing from OpenOffice.org and Evolution 1.4.3? what is stopping you from moving away from Windows? this is a smart-ass question, I am just curious. If there is something lacking in those applications it would be nice for it to be known so that the issue can be corrected and you need is satisfied.”
Well, one thing from Outlook as already stated is the communication between the exchange server and the client. Mainly the ability to do the scheduling. This can be made available if running Exchange server 2000 or 2003, but unfortunately that has been cost prohibitive for us to update from 5.5. So until we can do that dead in the water.
This is just silly. Why can’t people think rationally for a minute. Windows rules on the desktop. It is true. Want stats? That will be impossible.
Try finding stats for how many birds live in your city. Just not possible.
Hardware support is just not there for Linux and may never be. Simple fact is companies have no reason to support it. OSS is a nice idea in theory
but is limited to due to the fact that there is just no money in it. Why should a compny pour money into OSS development to get very little out
of it.
This is not my point. My point is that Linux has ts applications. Desktop is not it. Servers are the place for Linux. Creating a little home router
is perfect for linux. A server that needs needs little maintenece and needs a high uptime, Linux is great. A server that needs easy maintenece,
Microsoft server is great. Everything has its good and bad points.
Microsoft dead in 10 years? Hell No!!! Linux beating Windows on servers, very possible. Microsoft still will sell enough desktop OS’s and Office
applications to last a LONG LONG time, at least until there is a drastic shift in the computer market. When this shift happens and if Linux can be
involved from the ground floor, then anything is possible.
Why is that a lie? %98 might be high but %95 seems low.
scan your subnet and id be surprised if you find one linux box
May someone answer this question for me. There are 30 PCs with Windows XP preloaded and Exceed on each of them. There are 4 SUN machines (FIRE and SPARC). On every WinXP PC there are minimum 2 instances of Exceed open, connected to some of SUN’s machines. Plus, there is minimum 1 instance of telnet session to some of the SUNs. The question is: What is the “market” share of Windows XP?
Lets not get confused and assume OSS means running linux. I have lots of open source stuff running on my windows machine since I
feel they are better then the Windows alternative. But I would never try running Linux as my main desktop. Too much trouble. Windows
just works for me.
http://linuxpr.com/releases/4742.html
Don’t upgrade to Exchange, upgrade FROM Exchange. 😉
“Don’t upgrade to Exchange, upgrade FROM Exchange. ;-)”
Thanks for the link. I may actually be able to sell that one. Here I was waiting on Ximian
There’s a few others as well such as communigate.
http://www.stalker.com/cpro/default.html
“Besides Outlook, CommuniGate Pro supports standards-based mail clients such as Eudora and Netscape and clients like Evolution that adhere to e-mail and calendaring standards.”
– http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/4880/1/