First it was MSN Messenger, now Yahoo Messenger is threatening to lock out 3rd party instant messaging apps like Trillian, Proteus, and Gaim. It’s been an ironic and pleasant fact that users of alternative operating systems have had nice, multi-funtional instant messaging applications, while most Windows users didn’t even know they could bypass the official clients. That era may be coming to an end, as the big IM services are starting to lock out the 3rd party apps. What will this mean for alternative platforms?
This reminds me of the 1970’s when you had to rent your telephone from Ma Bell. I’m sure a law will need to be passed to allow open access to IM networks.
If Yahoo, MSN, and AOL don’t want to be regulated by new laws, they better get their act together, and stop being such idiots.
because Yahoo’s Linux and Mac OS X clients suck. They suck!!!1 I guess I don’t _really_ care though because Yahoo has really gone down hill lately anyway. There are so many SPAM bots on their network it’s not even funny.
Linux has always been good with internet apps, and as such Lindows has had an easy ride – get a simple box that browses web, email and IM. A lot of ‘newbies’ use the internet ONLY for MSN/AIM, so this is a big blow. However, I’m sure someone will leak a patch too get round it…
One of the great things about IM has always been that anyone could talk to anyone, now the fools are taking that away 🙁
Yet another reason for everyone to take a look at Jabber (http://jabber.org) where everyone can run their own server if they want.
At the moment there isn’t a problem with MSN. With what we know today 3rd partie clients will continue to work if they update their MSN-Protocoll to version 8.
And in the meantime the second biggest IM network/provider here uses and actively promotes Jabber (they’re developing WPJabber server). And it’s going stronger all the time…I feel that the moment when the most popular network will lock out alternative clients (yes, you’ve heard it…though there are negotiatons for allow *nix library, that is used to connect by most alternative clients, to connect) the Jabber powered will be strong again (lost few years ago, switched painlessly to Jabber and it’s regaining it’s share since then)
I guess I should say I am lucky, all my friends use aim. So, the hell with yahoo and msn.
Use Jabber and get rid of their crap protocols.
You get instant messaging, individual and as a chat room for several users.
Jabber really is the way to go. A nice, open, XML-based format. We use it here at work for quick, intra-office messages…
Also little bit more secure, if you chatting to strangers you talk to the jabber server. Not directly, client to client (IP to IP), like ICQ. Also encryption and the like.
I agree with Kick the Donkey and other previous posters about using Jabber. I’ve started using it recently with some friends and it rocks. The problem is getting people who want things to “just work” to use it because this means installing some new piece of software. It is also a chicken-and-egg type problem in that Joe won’t use Jabber until most of his contacts use it but his contacts won’t use he and all their contacts do.
You people seem to have forgotten the true-and-tried e-mail method of communication. And what about just calling or sending an SMS?
because i use both windows and linux and in windows i use msn messenger and in linux i use GAIM,
hopefully this will be fixed
cheers
anyweb
e-mail isn’t good for everything. And please, don’t say that IM is just for wasting time with unknown people.
First, not a bad way to communicate with real life buddies.
Second, it is good to have for some some “serious” things (did anybody say work?), for example when I want to discuss conviguration of a server with somebody.
Yeah, we use it instead of phone quite regularly here at work, makes for far cheaper phone bills since the vast majority of our communications are international.
When you are already “on”, IM is cheap. SMS is not only expensive but its interface is horrible. Therefore SMS is no alternative.
E-mail is an a-synchonous mode of communication, it can therefore not compare with “instant messaging”. It is something different.
So instant messaging needs its connectivity and, the amount of connections is what makes the network worthwhile. I am sure that with any protocol you can spam. What might be an idea is to be connected only for a predetermined subset of budies… It propably shows my ignorance that I ask about such a feature
Groetjes,
Gerard
Everything I need to do if I want what you do, Gerard, is click “allow incomming messages only from people on my contact list” in my Jabber client…
I star using MSN just because almost all my friends and parents use MSN, and they have others contacts in MSN too so is not easy just change to another IM, is not because of me is because my contacts!
for quite long time I am using IRC, ICQ via Miranda and Rebol based AltME (completly secure, ability to run own “worlds” and set rules)
-pekr-
The thing is that Trillian Pro 2.0 already supports the new MSN protocol version. It’s just that the free version .74 does not. Trillian Pro will not be affected by the change by MS but will be by the Yahoo change. They went through the “AIM Wars” though and came out the other side bruised but victorious.
Unfortunately, I use a mac at home and “Fire” is my multi-protocol client of choice. Seems like I’ll be screwed given that I have friends all over different networks. :
….is at http://www.mytelus.com/im/goto.vm?client=true .I use this client to talk to ICQ, Yahoo! and MSN.
I was getting the Yahoo! update message for a while, but then the server must have bben updated and it was gone. I really like only having to run 1 client on my computer. There are ads, however and the gui is NOT customizable.
From the help info …
TELUS Instant Messenger version 3.4.3 Build 1926
Dynamic component skin:tim-pc/english/3.
Copyright (C) TELUS,Inc., 2003. All Rights Reserved.
The source code for Expat 1.1 is available at http://www.mytelus.com/im/expat.zip
I started years ago with ICQ. Then friends of mine started getting new computers with Windows pre-installed with MSN and switching to it. So I added that one. Then somebody switched to Yahoo. Then someone else was using AIM. So now I’m using them all, because I can’t get all of my friends to use just one. On windows, I use Trillian. I’m NOT going to run all of these applications separatly – they use way to many resources. A friend of mine talked me into downloading MSN 6 the other day so she could play checkers with me – never again. The MSN and Yahoo clients are HORRIBLE. They seemed to have forgotten, as have many people, the KISS motto (Keep It Simple Stupid.) I don’t want a kitchen sink in my IM client – but I’m sure you’ll find one in there if you look hard enough.
On the one hand they claim to support open standards then they do things like this. Microsh*t only supports open standards for the standards they don’t control. I’m generally not an MS basher but I hate them more every day.
can be found at http://www.mytelus.com/im/help/about.vm
and I am not affiliated with the company at all.
This is a Windows only client, but the source code is apparently available and can be ported to *NIX
dPa
we’ll just have to set up our own (p2p?) IM network, and say to hell with those that shut us out of theirs. It’s not like they are the only ones allowed to have their own IM networks now is it?
When? is my question. I had thought that it was the 15th of September, but obviously not. So far GAIM and Kopete still work fine with MSN.
I know this is another proprietary system, but if it takes off well and can be easily cloned, Skype might be a great alternative. The KaZaA name and phone services would be useful for transferring a bunch of friends to the system. Furthermore, it is peer 2 peer and not so easily controlled. I think it would be an interesting alternative IM in the midst of all of this.
It’s only normal. Those people put a lot of money in their IM networks, and if you look at it properly then it’s not exactly fair to leech of it with your own little client.
I do hope everyone will offer nice and cheap lisences to 3rd parties though. Hell I wouldn’t even mind a banner add on my ICQ/AIM/YIM/MSN…
Nah, it was October 15.
First of all, I’m not sure “those people put a lot of money in their IM networks”, because their “IM networks” are peer-to-peer except for the authentication server. So these companies are running a few authentication servers, it’s hardly a drop in the bucket for companies like Microsoft, AOL and Yahoo. When you send a message to your buddies, you are not sending it “over the Yahoo network” or through a Yahoo server, you are sending it from your machine directly to your friend’s machine. That doesn’t cost Yahoo a dime.
Second, I read the article, and it doesn’t sound like Yahoo wants to permanently lock out 3rd party clients. They are not demanding licensing fees a la Microsoft, they are just updating their protocol to fix the spambot problem they have been having, and they will not allow clients that don’t support the new protocol to log on to the authentication server. I highly doubt Gaim/Kopete/Trillian will have a problem working with the new protocol at all.
Third, if companies like this want to play the Ma Bell game and lock up communications, then it is in all of our best interests to inform our friends of this and encourage as many of them as possible to sign up for an AIM/ICQ/Jabber accound and let Microsoft and Yahoo have their sandboxes.
Besides, friends don’t let friends use MSN.
Trying to communicate with Windows users. Looks like their free ride is over.
Its not exactly hard to run an IM app in emulation on WINE
Admittedly, LinuxPPC users are faced with a problem here as nobody wants to emulate a whole x86 PC to run an IM app but for must of us it should be a non-issue.
Yahoo even makes clients for Opensource systems
New Yahoo! Messenger v1.0.4-1 for FreeBSD, Red Hat Linux and Debian Linux.
FreeBSD
http://download.yahoo.com/dl/unix/fbsd4.ymessenger.tgz
Red Hat Linux
http://download.yahoo.com/dl/unix/rh9.ymessenger-1.0.4-1.i386.rpm
Debian Linux
http://download.yahoo.com/dl/unix/ymessenger_1.0.4_1_i386.deb
More>>
http://messenger.yahoo.com/messenger/download/unix.html
n0dez
I think everyone seems to agree that the yahoo messenger stinks so they are all happy to ignore it as junk.
Shawna> “First of all, I’m not sure “those people put a lot of money in their IM networks”, because their “IM networks” are peer-to-peer except for the authentication server. So these companies are running a few authentication servers, it’s hardly a drop in the bucket for companies like Microsoft, AOL and Yahoo. When you send a message to your buddies, you are not sending it “over the Yahoo network” or through a Yahoo server, you are sending it from your machine directly to your friend’s machine. That doesn’t cost Yahoo a dime.”
A few points:
1) It’s their network. They can do what they damn well choose with it. Don’t like it? Don’t use it. (Compare this with the screams about Xbox modding and “it’s my hardware!”)
2) Many messages on such systems DO indeed go over their servers. It’s not just authentication traffic – which is itself considerable. First there are the “buddy scan” type messages – that’s how you know when your friends join/leave. Then there’s all the people stuck behind firewalls – and there’s a hell of a lot of them – their messages are all via the central server – usually via TCP, to boot. It’s all bandwidth and resources, and it all mounts up. It doesn’t matter that it doesn’t “cost much”.
It’s their network, it’s their rules.
If you don’t like their client, don’t use their network.
You can always demand a refund of what you paid for the service…
>>It’s their network, it’s their rules.
Imagine if you applied that logic to the phone network, we’d have restrictions on how many extensions you can have in your house on the same line, what kind of phones you can have, and who you may buy your phones from. Oh wait, we tried that, and the government had to step in because the phone networks are too important to society to be walled off by greedy corporate whims. Instant messaging is quickly becoming as important as the phone system, and is probably going to require the exact same kind of intervention to force interoperability, as well as a change in attitude on the part of users, a move away from, “they can do to me as they please”.
Instant messaging is quickly becoming as important as the phone system, and is probably going to require the exact same kind of intervention to force interoperability, as well as a change in attitude on the part of users, a move away from, “they can do to me as they please”.
Well, as long as there are open protocols people can use, I fail to see the problem here. If you don’t like the way a corporation is handling their IM service, then don’t use it and try to convince your friends to jump ship too. These companies owe you nothing. And IM becoming as important as the telephone? Eh, whatever.
I hope that each ISP starts is own jabber server. And that all the ISP’s jabber servers are linked
And IM becoming as important as the telephone? Eh, whatever.
Yes. it seems it is! How do use contact your buddies these days including the buddies oversea? These days so many , at least, young people contact buddies on IM, and most Internet users are young people with no doubt.
However, their rules are their rules. No one elses can control on them. I know.
All my buddies use MSN and I use gaim on FreeBSD 5.1. I got problem on wine so I have to wait until there is a workaround. D**n !
i’m for making money, but this “it’s their network” argument is crap.
try again.
my capitalistic self is ready to back a sound idea from you ….any time.
I’m not sure how it would work but I can’t imagine it would be too complex to be practical. Not sure about security and privacy etc.
No … actually 3:
Open Standards: XMPP
http://www.jabber.org
Why not set up an adware funded messenging network that accepts all major protocols. Eg Trillian Pro 2 with Opera type funding…either adware or an ad-free paid subscription with extra features such as spam filtering etc.
What would it take for an OSS IM to take off similar to email, and other ISP supported services? How about a contact following, browser sharing, and file sharing protocol too while we’re at it! Just add it to the default BSD and Linux distros and it should be installed everywhere in 6 months!
Not that Yahoo does a good job of this either, but there is no authentication in Jabber, at least when talking with the main jabber.org server. I want to know that I am speaking with the person I think I am speaking with.
Maybe I’ll just stop talking to anyone who can’t be bothered use a silc client.
I agree.
Here in Australia where I live, the cheapest SMS is 10c, which I think is rediculous. Consider the bandwidth taken up by SMS compared to the Bandwidth a voice call takes up in 1 second. Everyone knows text uses virtually zero bandwidth, so why should they be so expensive? I think half a cent for each message would be much more realistic.
Maybe I’m just tired right now, but I don’t see the reason for yahoo to do this.
I agree with a previous poster, yahoo has been going down hill fast lately.
Yeah, ten cents per text message is ridiculous, and typing with your thumb is a pain. But people will pay it! As long as people don’t complain, and don’t refuse to use it on the grounds that it’s too expensive, the cell phone companies will have no reason to charge a more reasonable rate.
The cost comes from having to initialise a connection, and actually connect you to the person you want to speak to. Phone companies usually makes money off voice calls because you usually talk for quite long compared with an sms. There is a minimum cost and they want you to bear it. If they made sms’s too cheap, people would not talk. They would sms.
When I had an MSN account, I used to waste almost 2 hours a day in order to get rid of junk mail. Both MSN and Yahoo Messengers are rife with spam because it allows them to make money. Now, if some of the spammers don’t give kickbacks to both companies, that shouldn’t affect everybody.
What I don’t get is : what relationship (from a coding point of view) is there between filtering spam and preventing interoperability with other clients ? Users don’t have any guarantee they won’t receive any crappy message after they’ve surrendered their freedom to Microsoft or Yahoo.
We seem to have it good in the UK with regards to texts. Some companies are still charging 12p each but if you buy a phone from O2 you can still get about 500 free ones per month which is enough for anyone. Ofcource the downside is that you are charged more for phone calls made outside O2’s network so it all evens out.
Back on topic, I use GAIM under Linux to keep in touch with friends on several IM networks. I’ll use it while it still works but if GAIM is barred from MS’s network then I’m fortunate enough to be able to phone, text or drive around and visit the few people I still chat to on that. I am no fan of MS, but it is their network. Surely if the friends you’ll be stopped from chatting to on MSN are good enough friends then they will atleast be open to using a different client to chat to you, maybe a Jabber one?
Not that Yahoo does a good job of this either, but there is no authentication in Jabber, at least when talking with the main jabber.org server. I want to know that I am speaking with the person I think I am speaking with.
And that is purely the decision of the jabber.org server. Set up your own server and don’t allow anonymous creation of new accounts: easy. But even for anon jabber.org accounts, presence can be digitally signed.
Jabber.org is like free webmail: it could be anyone/anybot. That isn’t because of any lack of authentication in the underlying system.
Actually .. back in the old days when phones were rare you had to pay for each phone installed in your house .. so your argument, sir, is crap.
If anyone can give me a good counter-argument for the “It’s their network”-one, then by all means, blow me off my feet. If not: get lost with your pathetic whining.
Start your own IM network for all I care, then you’ll see how much it costs you, and we’ll see how you like it when people are leeching of it.
Considered creating a completely new and open network based on a network model similar to what gnutella uses? If there is no actual “infrastructure” in place, aka, “core servers”, wouldn’t the whole rational for locking people out simply disappear?
As for locking out third party clients, what have they got to benefit from this? are they going to start charging to access and their clients? What is the motivation behind this crack down? People wouldn’t need to use third party clients if the clients provided by the network were above the quality one would see from a VB programmer.
If these two bit operations don’t want to create multiple versions, then create a pure J2SE 1.4 client so that it runs on all platforms with Java.
Was that just suggesting the bloody obvious but are most CEO’s and “tech gurus” more worried about the hype than delivering a functional end user product that works first time, everytime.
“Considered creating a completely new and open network based on a network model similar to what gnutella uses? If there is no actual “infrastructure” in place, aka, “core servers”, wouldn’t the whole rational for locking people out simply disappear?”
Read near the beginning. I asked something similar.
>>If anyone can give me a good counter-argument for the “It’s their network”-one, then by all means, blow me off my feet. If not: get lost with your pathetic whining.
It’s our network, it wouldn’t exist without the users, herding us around like cattle and walling us off from communicating with our friends is an abuse of the network by the custodians of that network and should not be tolerated. MCI can’t say you can only communicate with MCI subscribers because “it’s their network”, neither should Microsoft (or Yahoo, even though I don’t believe they are doing that).
Regarding cost, it costs almost nothing to set up and run an IRC server, and even less to set up and run a severely stripped-down version of an IRC server, and even less than that to set up a severely stripped-down version of an IRC server where most communications are going straight peer-to-peer. I don’t know where you got the idea that running IRC servers is expensive. Why do you think there are thousands and thousands of free ones, and why has it never occurred to anyone before MS to ask for licensing fees to connect to one?
One method that might reduce costs, is to connect multiple servers, so that if you log on to a server, and the contact isn’t there, the server will ask its “partners” if they have that contact, and they will spread the request over the network. Verification could be done by digital signing (like a PGP signature).
The first thing is already in Jabber in very similar form. And I’m not shure of possibilities of Jabber, so I don’t know whether or not the second is possible with modified server and client. I wouldn’t be surprised though.