It’s been known for a while that the new Apple G5 machines would come out before the next major release of OS X, Panther, would be ready. It’s confirmed today, though, that Apple will be releasing a new version of OS X with the G5, a version that has been “optimized to take advantage of the 64-bit technology in the Power Mac G5.” “The kernel has been updated to take advantage of memory expansion and the vector libraries and math libraries have been optimized,” said an Apple executive. “Any application that does dynamic linking to those libraries will get an automatic benefit without having to recompile.”
APPLE SUCKS!!!
Just kidding, LOL.
It’ll be interesting to see how these babies perform “in the real world”
Someone should do a review of them for OSNews objectively comparing the real world performance of G4 vs. G5.
Open BSD works quite well on my iBook G-3 and is 25 times faster tha OS X.
…am I kidding?
I don’t think so….
well the first single-cpu G5s started shipping today, any clue if the new 10.2.7 update is near release too?
It has been public information for several months that the G5 will ship with 10.2.7. Apple had it posted right on apple.com along with all the other G5 info. This wasn’t confirmed today, it was confirmed in June.
“It’ll be interesting to see how these babies perform “in the real world”
Several real world tests have already been made… and they showed that the speed was significantly more impressive than what the SPEC benchmarks made them out to be.
(Then again, SPEC has never been an accurate gauge to determine the overall speed of a computers chip… this despite the fact that so many Intel fanboys held this benchmark as the be all end all to determine a chips speed)
The important thing is when we will be able to use more than 2 GB RAM, so we can multitask with the latest games. I can do 3d modelling fast even on a G4. I wonder what the G5 wll bring except an excuse for sloppier (less efficient) programming.
The only reason for 10.2.7 is to support G5. Unless you are getting a G5, there is no reason for it. You do not want to install 10.2.7 on a G3 or G4.
People who just want to download things can be very annoying… to me, at least. Anyone else?
— “The only reason for 10.2.7 is to support G5. Unless you are getting a G5, there is no reason for it. You do not want to install 10.2.7 on a G3 or G4.”
How could you possibly now this? Id find it much more likly that there WILL be a 10.2.7 for all Macs. They’re can’t possibly be NOTHING to fix anymore in 10.2, so why wouldn’t they go ahead and include any fixes that have been waiting for the next update?
“The important thing is when we will be able to use more than 2 GB RAM, so we can multitask with the latest games.”
The G5 allows for 8 GB of ram… (16 GB when the 2 GB Dims are realeased)
“I can do 3d modelling fast even on a G4. I wonder what the G5 wll bring except an excuse for sloppier (less efficient) programming.”
Even faster modelling
“How could you possibly now this? Id find it much more likly that there WILL be a 10.2.7 for all Macs. They’re can’t possibly be NOTHING to fix anymore in 10.2, so why wouldn’t they go ahead and include any fixes that have been waiting for the next update?”
Agreed…. although it is likely that the doing more than simply “fixing” something per say. It could be adding functionality.
The question is how many people who live in the real world can actually afford a G5?
Several real world tests have already been made… and they showed that the speed was significantly more impressive than what the SPEC benchmarks made them out to be.
Any URLs? I don’t care about benchies, because benchies lie (SPEC being one of the worst offenders) I’m talking about real world user experience with both high-end professional software and also common everyday tasks.
That’s what I mean by “real world” tests. I could make a benchmark that made my Handspring Visor outperform a Cray, that doesn’t mean it really does. (Well, maybe that was a stretch, but I think you get what I mean.)
“The question is how many people who live in the real world can actually afford a G5?”
Apparently several. Despite the bad economy, Apple said that they’ve sold over 100,000 of them.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/st…
Now consider that nearly everyone I’ve talked to opted for the most expensive model among them all… it looks as if people are buing these things in droves.
yeah and another question is how many people can afford a sun station?
get it into your head that consumers have their computers, profesionals have this.
if you want a power mac then buy it, but if you don’t like the price, buy a consumer level machine.
“Any URLs? I don’t care about benchies, because benchies lie (SPEC being one of the worst offenders)”
Check this out: http://stream.apple.akadns.net/
Spec doesn’t lie… its just misleading.
“I’m talking about real world user experience with both high-end professional software and also common everyday tasks.”
Here’s another one: http://members.cox.net/craig.hunter/g5/
“That’s what I mean by “real world” tests. I could make a benchmark that made my Handspring Visor outperform a Cray, that doesn’t mean it really does.”
Thankfully, the benchmarks that we’ve seen as of late aren’t quite as obscure as that.
Are there any advantages to running 64-bit for the G5 beyond the larger memory address space? With the Opteron/Athlon64, there was a bit of x86 “cleanup” stuff where they tried to fix problems with the x86 ISA. I haven’t heard of anything that would make the G5 perform better in 64-bit mode when large memory is not an issue. I figure in moving from 32-bit PPC to 64-bit Power4, there was less to improve upon ISA wise.
“get it into your head that consumers have their computers, profesionals have this.”
I know (personally) of 5 consumers… Im talking home users… that bought a G5
“Are there any advantages to running 64-bit for the G5 beyond the larger memory address space?”
Yes, but they won’t be realized for quite some time.
The G5’s most significant advantage right now is its speed. Its 64 bitness advantage will be realized later, when applications are written to take advantage of it.
“get it into your head that consumers have their computers, profesionals have this.”
Uh huh… For a machine marketed to the professional, Apple is sure spending enough money on television advertisements targetting home users.
And is Apple is moving away from the consumer market? Does this mean home users should be worried? Apple seems to be abandoning what has been their strongest market in favor of a very small niche market.
And besides, their advertisements on TV don’t suggest they are aiming this
” The question is how many people who live in the real world can actually afford a G5? ”
If you are talking about traditional Mac users and customers then apparently quite a few judging by how many have been preordered.
The argument with Macs being too expensive is old and tired. PCs also sell for $2000 and above so if you can’t afford a G5 its not likely you can afford a $2000 PC either.
Check this out: http://stream.apple.akadns.net/
Spec doesn’t lie… its just misleading.
A Steve Jobs reality distortion keynote address is not what I call a “real world” test.
Here’s another one: http://members.cox.net/craig.hunter/g5/
This set of tests are what I’m looking for. I must say, the numbers in that are very impressive. I’d say that Apple should hold its own against Intel-based machines. However it doesn’t look like it’ll be burning past Intel anytime soon. (A Pentium IV 2.66 GHz machine outperformed a G5 by a single point)
It’s good to have choice and I wish Apple much success.
“And is Apple is moving away from the consumer market?
I’ve heard this a couple times… I don’t understand it. Apple’s consumer line is doing great. How can the inclusion of the G5 be understood as abandoning consumers?
“Does this mean home users should be worried?
Of course not. What’s to be worried about?
“Apple seems to be abandoning what has been their strongest market in favor of a very small niche market.”
How do you figure?
The question is how many people who live in the real world can actually afford a G5?>>>
I make $26k a year as an LAIII for the state of Nevada.
I can afford a dual G5. And so can you if you quit whining and put your mind to how you’re going to make it happen. But you won’t do that. You’d rather just piss and snivel and whine, wouldn’t you?
Me, I took the actions needed to put the brass in my pocket so’s I can lay my hands on the Ferrari of computers without incurring any debt. And as soon as a few versions of the g5 are out, I will do so. (I never buy first gen anything.)
“A Steve Jobs reality distortion keynote address is not what I call a “real world” test.”
Sigh… Give the trolling a rest. They showed several real world tests.
“This set of tests are what I’m looking for. I must say, the numbers in that are very impressive. I’d say that Apple should hold its own against Intel-based machines.”
Hold its own is an understatement… assuming you’re talking about Pentiums. (If you’re talking about XEONs… then you’re absolutely correct)
“However it doesn’t look like it’ll be burning past Intel anytime soon.”
(A Pentium IV 2.66 GHz machine outperformed a G5 by a single point)
That has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread: http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/03/07/04/1813255.shtml?tid=137&tid=…
I wont re-hash it… just read.
At a starting price of US$ 1995.00 I’d say they are extreamly affordable. BTW a Sun SunBlade 150 workstation starts at US$ 1395.00 http://www.sun.com/desktop/workstation/sunblade150
Sigh… Give the trolling a rest. They showed several real world tests.
I wasn’t trolling, just pointing out that referencing a Steve Jobs keynote address would be like asking the Pope if I should become Catholic.
What the hell’s he going to say, nope you should become Jewish instead? Likewise, of course Jobs is going to make his G5s look like supercomputers. It’s in his best interest. I’m not saying that its a lie, but it’s hardly an objective real world test.
Also, what I said about the G5’s performance wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, I was quite impressed to see the G5 hold it’s own against Intel chips. As long as Apple can stay competitive, this is a very good thing. Plus G5’s have a major advantage over P4s because they’re 64-bit.
Why didn’t Apple coordinate the release of OS X 10.3 (Panther) with the release of the G5? Now G5 users are going to be forced to spend another $100+ for the newest version of OS X only a few months after shelling out thousands of dollars for the G5 itself. I know that Panther will not be ready for another few months, but they could have planned this better.
Don’t get me wrong, I find Apple’s products to be more innovative than their PC counterparts, but I also see Apple becoming more and more like Microsoft in that they seem to be trying their best to get as much money out of their customers as possible. By the time Panther comes out, there will have been one revision of OS X per year since OS X came out. The second revision, Jaguar, costs users $130 and gave them few new features and mostly necessary speed improvements. In other words, users had to pay another $130 to make their middle-of-the-line Mac run at acceptable rates of speed.
I have been playing with the idea of getting either a G5 or a Powerbook, but I can’t get past the high prices for Apple’s hardware and the feeling that Apple is trying to take all as much money as possible from their users by constantly releasing new versions of its OS for $100+.
“How could you possibly now this?”
Because Apple and numerous news sources have said so.
“Id find it much more likly that there WILL be a 10.2.7 for all Macs. They’re can’t possibly be NOTHING to fix anymore in 10.2, so why wouldn’t they go ahead and include any fixes that have been waiting for the next update?”
Did I say there is nothing to fix? Haven’t we had 6 updates and two recent security updates? Isn’t Panther going to be out in one month? Duh.
10.2.7’s only “improvements” are to take advantage of the G5. There is nothing in it to improve the performance of other systems. There have been hardware specific point releases in the past as well if you continue to not beleive me.
I think you misunderstood my question. I was referring to the advantage of running 64-bit code on a G5 to running 32-bit code on a G5. We already know the G5 can run 32-bit PPC code very fast. Beyond 64-bit memory addressing, are there any ISA changes that should improve performance (like with Opteron/Athlon64)? Not a knock against G5, there simply may have been less to improve upon (we all know the x86 ISA is a mess).
“Why didn’t Apple coordinate the release of OS X 10.3 (Panther) with the release of the G5?”
Because the G5 is ready and Panther isn’t, and people have been waiting for 4 years for the G5.
“Now G5 users are going to be forced to spend another $100+ for the newest version of OS X only a few months after shelling out thousands of dollars for the G5 itself.”
And these people have nothing to complain about if that happens. (And it may not necessarily happen–Apple could offer an upgrade option for anyone who bought a system after 8/16 for example.) But even if it does, the people purchasing G5s had a decision to make: get the G5 as soon as possible or wait until Panther was released. The situation is obvious, and anyone claiming ignorance or bitching in a couple of months is a retard. I do agree that Apple wants to make as much money as possible, but I think your interpretation is pathetic… They are shipping G5s now to satisfy the greater pent-up demand for new hardware at the risk of this sort of whining from people like you. That sounds like giving the customers what they want, rather than trying to create cicrumstances where they can chisel off some extra cash from you.
“I wasn’t trolling, just pointing out that referencing a Steve Jobs keynote address would be like asking the Pope if I should become Catholic.”
In the same way Steve made would convey Apple’s strengths in their best light, the pope would do the same. That does not make any of their statements for having you become a Mac user (or Catholic) incorrect. This is what you were implying… and that which I take issue with.
“What the hell’s he going to say, nope you should become Jewish instead? Likewise, of course Jobs is going to make his G5s look like supercomputers.”
I can’t imagine the pope would say that, however, Jobs might certinly declare their machines “super computers” as in fact they are. But then again, so were the g4s… and later (a few months after the g4s were intro’d) pentiums became “super computers” too.
“I’m not saying that its a lie”
Could have fooled me.
“but it’s hardly an objective real world test.”
A real world test is exactly that…. A real world test. There’s no objectiveness, or lack theirof… thats what make real world tests so compelling.
“I was quite impressed to see the G5 hold it’s own against Intel chips.”
You must not have read the slashdot link I referenced. I’ll summarize.
The Nasa benchmark was using an application using a G4 compiler… and used with only 1 processor. Change the compiler… and the Pentiums 1 point speed advantage is long gone. (remember, he was running a pre-release early machine… not the currently shipping machine). Second, he was running with one processor turned off.
yes, the G5 blows past Pentiums and holds its own with XEONs.
“As long as Apple can stay competitive, this is a very good thing.
“Plus G5’s have a major advantage over P4s because they’re 64-bit.
Yes, and faster too.
“I have been playing with the idea of getting either a G5 or a Powerbook, but I can’t get past the high prices for Apple’s hardware and the feeling that Apple is trying to take all as much money as possible from their users by constantly releasing new versions of its OS for $100+.”
You can’t get past an idea? Can you wait a month? If you wait a month, you get the hardware you want and $100 of software for FREE. (Hell, you can even use that FREE $100 software on multiple machines–but I wouldn’t want to encourage anything illegal.)
If you are aware of Apple’s product cycles, they can be 100% taken advantage of. They do not need to be the disadvantage you want to pretend they are.
And, in fact, you DON’T HAVE to upgrade if you don’t want to. Well, I’ll be…
It now appears the new PBooks will also ship with a 10.2.7 but a different one than that on the G5s. Once again, this is a hardware-specific improvement and only relates to the new PBooks to be introduced.
“Why didn’t Apple coordinate the release of OS X 10.3 (Panther) with the release of the G5?
Because these computers are 6 years past due. We simply can’t wait any longer… yes we can’t wait 2-3 more months.
“Now G5 users are going to be forced to spend another $100+ for the newest version of OS X only a few months after shelling out thousands of dollars for the G5 itself.”
Not necesserally. more than likely…. it will be a free upgrade for G5 users.
“I know that Panther will not be ready for another few months, but they could have planned this better.”
Speaking as an individual that has been waiting for what seems like an eternity… I’m fine with the current release schedule.
“I also see Apple becoming more and more like Microsoft in that they seem to be trying their best to get as much money out of their customers as possible.”
Capitalism at work. The difference is Apple gives compelling reasons to buy.. without forcing you in a direction (that is… mos tof the time anyways.) Microsoft on the other hand… will practically do everything short of hold a gun to your head to get money out of your pocket.
“By the time Panther comes out, there will have been one revision of OS X per year since OS X came out. The second revision, Jaguar, costs users $130 and gave them few new features and mostly necessary speed improvements. In other words, users had to pay another $130 to make their middle-of-the-line Mac run at acceptable rates of speed.”
The speed was necessary… but you were paying for several bundled applications and many feature improvements. it was definately a justifable upgrade.
“I have been playing with the idea of getting either a G5 or a Powerbook, but I can’t get past the high prices for Apple’s hardware”
High prices? How do you figure? Apples prices are typicvally only slightly more, the same price slightly less or significantly less than a PC with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software configuration as that can be had on the equivilent Mac.
“and the feeling that Apple is trying to take all as much money as possible from their users by constantly releasing new versions of its OS for $100+.”
Constantly? Apple has 1 paid upgrade for every free upgrade… typically 1 of each every year. Thats very reasonable.
A real world test is exactly that…. A real world test. There’s no objectiveness, or lack theirof… thats what make real world tests so compelling.
Those aren’t objective real world tests, no matter how much you want them to be!!! You would be very offended if I showed a video of Bill Gates demonstrating Windows XP and saying it’s the easiest to use OS out there. IT IS THE SAME THING because somehow I have the feeling you’ll try to tell me it’s not.
Let me clarify what I mean by “objective real world tests”:
Individuals using their computers for everyday tasks, saying Adobe photoshop is this much faster. Companies performing 3D renderings “x” seconds faster. The desktop experience is better on a G5 for these reasons. Etc., etc., etc.
You must not have read the slashdot link I referenced. I’ll summarize.
The Nasa benchmark was using an application using a G4 compiler… and used with only 1 processor. Change the compiler… and the Pentiums 1 point speed advantage is long gone. (remember, he was running a pre-release early machine… not the currently shipping machine).
I think it’s still a fair real-world test, how much G5 optimized software will be available at the time of its release? Hell, the OS it ships with won’t even be close to fully optimized yet. So that’s kind of a stupid argument IMHO.
Second, he was running with one processor turned off.[i]
Ummm, okay, so get a P4 dualie to run the tests with. What’s your point?
[i]yes, the G5 blows past Pentiums and holds its own with XEONs.
Define “blows past” because I think our definitions differ.
I have nothing personally against Apple (I’m not a “PC Zealot-Mac-troll-with-a-vendetta), I’m just a curious computer geek who can’t afford to buy a G5 to play with it (I can’t afford a new ANYTHING to play with, so that’s not an “Apple is too expensive” slam either.) because otherwise, I’d have one on pre-order and I’d find out first hand about such things.
Don’t take everything as an attack against you, Apple, or Steve Jobs.
Don’t forget that with apple you can pay $199 for a family license of the OS wich will allow you to load it on 5 machines. MS dosn’t offer consumers a family discount.
If you can’t afford $2-3k for a 64-bit workstation on your desktop, you either
a) are too young and don’t need one to play Reader Rabbit
b) are in school
c) wish you were making a decent living
d) still living rent free in your mom’s basement so you expect evrything else in this world to be free.
For the rest of us who went to school and got a degree, it’s cheaper than a sofa
“Those aren’t objective real world tests, no matter how much you want them to be!!!”
Of course they were. Again, a real world test is exactly that…. A real world test. There’s no objectiveness, or lack theirof… thats what make real world tests so compelling.
“You would be very offended if I showed a video of Bill Gates demonstrating Windows XP and saying it’s the easiest to use OS out there.
Because ease of use is more subjective, requiring more elaborate testing than what a side by side comparison can offer, i would be upset, but what that link showed was side by side real word speed comparisons… which can be displayed without any real concern over objectiveness as you can obviously see the two running their tests side by side, and see which one completes its task faster.
“Let me clarify what I mean by “objective real world tests”:
Individuals using their computers for everyday tasks, saying Adobe photoshop is this much faster.”
You obviously didn’t see the video. That test was made.
“Companies performing 3D renderings “x” seconds faster.”
You obviously didn’t see the video. That test was made.
“I think it’s still a fair real-world test, how much G5 optimized software will be available at the time of its release? Hell, the OS it ships with won’t even be close to fully optimized yet. So that’s kind of a stupid argument IMHO.”
The OS doesn’t need to be 64 bit. Instead, its the APPLICATIONS which need to be 64 bit… In this case, the OS is written to allow applications to take advantage of 64 bit. At this point, the 64 bit is somewhat of a non-issue. What’s really important is the speed advantage that it gives you. For some reason, the PC fanboys latched on to the 64bit issue as if thats the main concern.
“Define “blows past” because I think our definitions differ.”
“Blow past” can be defined in doing a task between 50-100% faster than the competition.
Why do some people fail to understand that “can’t afford” is basically the same as saying “don’t want to spend.”
I make plenty of money. That doesn’t mean I want to blow $2000 per year on computer products. I can afford a lot of things, that doesn’t make them a “good deal.”
I can afford a new couch, but I’m not gonna get one. This is true for plenty of Mac people who tend to use their computers for a long time.
Well, I guess in today’s world of $500 systems, some might think so, but it wasn’t too long ago that you paid more than that for a 36mhz Mac II.
“What’s really important is the speed advantage that it gives you.”
Less anyone misunderstand this statement, “it” refers to the G5… not its 64bitness
Panther is far more than just a “software speed bump” with a few extras. Almost every single aspect of the entire OS has been refined, polished, revamped, or, in some cases, reengineered to give users a far better experience. OS X is already great, but Panther looks like it will make OS X insanely great. Many features are worth $100 just on their own. I have a feeling that Exposé, Fast User Switching, and the new Open/Save dialog boxes will be worth the price of admission alone. That’s not including the *hundreds* of other new features that make the platform that much cooler. For the programmer geeks out there, the Carbon and Cocoa APIs have undergone serious new development — the most changes and enhancements since OS X was first released in 2001. This is truly a new era. Don’t get fooled by the smaller number of “visible” additions to Panther compared to Jaguar — this is every bit as large a release.
Cheers,
Jared
“Well, I guess in today’s world of $500 systems, some might think so, but it wasn’t too long ago that you paid more than that for a 36mhz Mac II.”
The advantage of the PC is not that it costs less. Rather, the business model allows you to buy less, and therefore pay less when buying new systems. The equivilent PC as compared to the high-end G5 would cost you more than $1000 MORE than that what Apple is charging.
Rumor has it that the panther team didnt know about the G5. Only the Darwin Group ( Kernel people ), and the hardware group.
Looks like that the OS will be playing catchup for quite a while, like with the origional PPC port of the OS, its going to take 10 years, and they are going to dump all the old hardware. (i.e. your new Dual G4 is going to stack up in garbage cans like a Mac+ )
Basically, my understanding is to stay current on OSX upgrades, you need to spend $100-$130 every year, versus $90-$100 every 3 years for the newest Windows release, or $0 every 6 months for the newest Linux release.
There’s no spin that can change that fact. I don’t care how many new “features” they add or how we’re entering a “whole new era” in OXS-ness. Basically, we’re now at the point where OSX is starting to deliver on the promise that it was supposed to have for the platform. And (some) people have already spent $400 or so on upgrades, and will need to drop another $130 to get Panther. Nice.
“Rumor has it that the panther team didnt know about the G5. Only the Darwin Group ( Kernel people ), and the hardware group.”
I stay very up to date on rumors and yet I haven’t heard that.
“Looks like that the OS will be playing catchup for quite a while, like with the origional PPC port of the OS, its going to take 10 years, and they are going to dump all the old hardware. (i.e. your new Dual G4 is going to stack up in garbage cans like a Mac+ )”
This comment is simply a troll.
“Don’t forget that with apple you can pay $199 for a family license of the OS wich will allow you to load it on 5 machines. MS dosn’t offer consumers a family discount.”
Added to that, OS X is pretty much a “Home” & “Pro” version rolled into one at a price you can’t beat (get XP Home, upgrade to Pro because you want to do more serious web work, add M$s “iApp-wannabe” package and you’ve still got a limited-to-one-user/machine licence, weep).
Having bought Jaguar (no regrets) I’m totally willing to buy Panther, as there are real enhancements, speed optimisations (especially speedy for 3-year old Macs) and iChat AV final bundled (29.90 for Jaguar users) with all the Apple-branded “freeware” apps upgraded too. Actually, I’m quite sure there’ll be 100 x more people shelling out for Panther than for the standalone iChat AV for Jaguar.
If a reasonably priced upgrade promises enhanced speed, I’m all for it, as many individuals have confirmed an appreciable boost on gum-drop iMacs, G3 PowerMacs and PowerBooks… Anyone remember the 30% performance hit taken by Win98 compared to Win95? Apple is also a hardware company, and its nice to see that they’re making old hardware perform better with Panther, so there’s no saying that they’re forcing you to get newer machines, even if they’d like you to.
Go Panther!
You obviously didn’t see the video. That test was made.
Not OBJECTIVE.
Why do I even bother trying to discuss things with you, you are a known Apple Zealot, who assumes that anybody saying anything “bad” about Apple is automatically against him.
Maybe, just once, you could step outside your reality distortion field, pull your fingers out of your ears, and stop screaming “LA-LA-LA-Watch the video-LA-LA-LA-I can’t hear you-LA-LA-LA”
How many times do I have to say that presentations by Steve Jobs are about as useful as late night infomercials.
Not saying he’s necessarily wrong, but he’s also not necessarily right. I take what he says with a grain of salt and wait for other (more objective) people to step up and either support him or counter him.
It’s been said before, there are two types of lies, damned lies and statistics.
I’m sure the G5s smoke, but I’m also skeptical that they’re as fast as Jobs and Co. make them out to be.
“Basically, my understanding is to stay current on OSX upgrades, you need to spend $100-$130 every year, versus $90-$100 every 3 years for the newest Windows release, or $0 every 6 months for the newest Linux release. There’s no spin that can change that fact. I don’t care how many new “features” they add or how we’re entering a “whole new era” in OXS-ness. “
The implication was that Apple was forcing you to upgrade… and thus pulling money out of its users wallets.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The difference is that Apple gives you a compelling reason to upgrade every year, while Microsoft only gives you a compelling reason to upgrade once every 3 years.
“Basically, we’re now at the point where OSX is starting to deliver on the promise that it was supposed to have for the platform.”
Just starting? Apple has been delivering on the promise for the past 25 years.
“And (some) people have already spent $400 or so on upgrades, and will need to drop another $130 to get Panther. Nice.”
And they’ll do so with enthusiam because Panther offers compelling reasons to upgrade.
“I stay very up to date on rumors and yet I haven’t heard that. ”
I didnt get it from a rumors site, and they cant print most of what they hear anyway. ( ever actualyl TALK to the guy who runs macosrumors? )
“This comment is simply a troll.”
Your comment is simply a wildebeast.
The origional PPCs shipped with 7.1.2, it wasnt until 9.0 that the ugrade was reall significant, and by that time, they had dumped all the old hardware. ( NO PPC upgrade cards even supported 8.5).
History repeats itself over and over with apple. they do the same thing year in and year out, with the exception of Gil Amelio and his upgradeable hardware. ( your bargan basement 7500 can run a G4 processor )
Hey, Anonymous (IP: 12.105.181.—), you have reading comprehension problems.
I said: Basically, we’re now at the point where OSX is starting to deliver on the promise that it was supposed to have for the platform.”
You replied: “ust starting? Apple has been delivering on the promise for the past 25 years. “
OSX has only been around for a few years. Your zealotry is worthless. You fool no one. OSX came into the world (not 25 years ago) with a lot of promise. It took several iterations to see that promise lived up to. There are still features from OS9 that people are waiting for in OSX.
“Not OBJECTIVE.”
Yes OBJECTIVE
“Why do I even bother trying to discuss things with you, you are a known Apple Zealot”
Could it be that you are you discussing things with me so that you can justify you PC purchase to yourself? I am not an Apple zealot. Nothing that I’ve said can be misconstrued as zealotry. I am however, an Apple realist.
“anybody saying anything “bad” about Apple is automatically against him.”
Thankfully, that doesn’t describe me, or you might have a point. You I take issue with are the points you try to express which lack merit.
“Maybe, just once, you could step outside your reality distortion field, pull your fingers out of your ears, and stop screaming “LA-LA-LA-Watch the video-LA-LA-LA-I can’t hear you-LA-LA-LA””
I’m doing no such thing. However, you might actually want to watch the video before you pass judgment on it. By not doing so, YOU look like the indiviudal with his fingers in his ears LA-LA-LAing…
“How many times do I have to say that presentations by Steve Jobs are about as useful as late night infomercials.”
And how many times do I have to say that this statement is not true
“Not saying he’s necessarily wrong, but he’s also not necessarily right.”
Then what ARE you saying… we have yet to figure this out.
“I take what he says with a grain of salt and wait for other (more objective) people to step up and either support him or counter him.”
What it sounds like is that you wont consider any comparison “objective” until it shows a PC running as fast or faster than a Mac.
The comparisons ARE RIGHT THERE… JUST LOOK AT THEM.
“It’s been said before, there are two types of lies, damned lies and statistics.”
Hence the reason why real world tests are so important in this case.
“I’m sure the G5s smoke, but I’m also skeptical that they’re as fast as Jobs and Co. make them out to be.”
We all figured you would be
“presentations by Steve Jobs are about as useful as late night infomercials.”
HEY. informercials are way more usefull. Behind every factoid out of Jobs mouth, theare are more caviates than a mili vanilli contract.
“Microsoft only gives you a compelling reason to upgrade once every 3 years.”
Sir!: Microsoft has NEVER given me a compelling reason to upgrade. This box runs WinME fine. Everything works. Does everything I need, except run Mac OS 9.1 ( It runs Mac OS 8.1 via Executor faster than a 1st generation PPC )
“I didnt get it from a rumors site, and they cant print most of what they hear anyway. ( ever actualyl TALK to the guy who runs macosrumors? )”
Yes, I once visited his IRC channel regularly. His name is Ryan Meader… and he has a bad reputation for making rumors up.
“The origional PPCs shipped with 7.1.2, it wasnt until 9.0 that the ugrade was reall significant, and by that time, they had dumped all the old hardware. ( NO PPC upgrade cards even supported 8.5).”
HARDLY… The initial PPC and MacOS grouping was huge all the way from the beginning. It allowed for significant speed advantages throughout its lifetime… (Except for the latter half of the G4 era).
“History repeats itself over and over with apple. they do the same thing year in and year out, with the exception of Gil Amelio and his upgradeable hardware.”
Yes, Apple creates wonderful hardware and software year in and year out. The only time the got off track with that goal was when Gil Amelio introduced clones. (Apple hardware has always been upgradeable… except for the all in ones, much like PCs)
Can you rip and encode a DVD on a G5 faster than the time it would take to play it? Or can you do it while watching the movie?
” I’m sure the G5s smoke, but I’m also skeptical that they’re as fast as Jobs and Co. make them out to be. ”
Fact is that quite a few reports have surfaced with real-world tests, on pre-production machines, on yet-to-be-optimised versions of the OS and tested apps…
I have no links to back that up, unfortunately, but I have the distinct memory of someone having tested pro audio apps, lo and behold: the G5 smokes, and then some!
Around march, next year, after everyone has donned their optimisation caps, we’ll have more surprises… The G5 platform is a Formula One, waiting for the proper tyres, gas and tracks to show off all (some) of its strengths. Potential, my friend, is when everything else plays catch-up.
“don’t feed the big cats”
“OSX has only been around for a few years. Your zealotry is worthless.”
Misreading a comment is hardly zealotry. Give it a rest troll.
“You fool no one”
Thats a relief… because i’m not trying to fool anyone.
” It took several iterations to see that promise lived up to.”
3 iterations is several? Most people are overjoyed by Jaguar. The fact that Apple is improving an what is an -already-wonderful product is a testiment to their abilities.
“There are still features from OS9 that people are waiting for in OSX.”
Ya, so…
[TROLL] >>>”presentations by Steve Jobs are about as useful as late night infomercials.”<<<
HEY. informercials are way more usefull. Behind every factoid out of Jobs mouth, theare are more caviates than a mili vanilli contract. [ / TROLL]
Microsoft has NEVER given me a compelling reason to upgrade. This box runs WinME fine. Everything works. Does everything I need, except run Mac OS 9.1 ( It runs Mac OS 8.1 via Executor faster than a 1st generation PPC )”
That’s not saying much
“Can you rip and encode a DVD on a G5 faster than the time it would take to play it?
Considering the fact that I can do so on a G4… on a measly First-generation flat-screen iMac, I’m confidant that the G5 will be able to.
“Or can you do it while watching the movie?”
I’ve done it before.
Ohhh, I know who you are now!!! You’re the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail!!!
“You’ve got no arms”
“Yes I do!”
“The Black Night Always Triumphs!!!”
But to be serious, my point is just this, what Steve Jobs says is NOT the holy gospel. Also, I accepted the G5 comparison done by NASA, because, well, I kinda trust them. They have no reason to distort benchmarks. So they are a nice OBJECTIVE comparison. I would have accepted them no matter what their results were as long as the comparison was fair. As I have said before, I am not Apple biased. If Apple continues their tradition of quality, I will probably be a happy PowerBook owner upon completing college. (Tuition is killing me right now, so I have to cut back on my toys.) Oh, and if you’re thinking I’m pissed off because I can’t afford a Mac, I’m not that petty that I would belittle something because I can’t afford to buy it. I think Chevy Silverados are great trucks, but I DEFINITELY can’t buy one right now.
Fundamentally Jobs is a salesman, no more, no less. (Well, he’s a very good salesman, and some would argue cult leader, but that’s a different story.) The keynote address is a SALES PITCH. I take it with a grain of salt, just like I take the commercials showing vacuum cleaners picking up bowling balls with a grain of salt.
This is my complaint about your answer to my post. Jobs is not OBJECTIVE. You may want Jobs to be objective, but he fundamentally is biased, just as you and I would be biased if I had a product to sell.
Now if Joe Schmoe with no Apple affiliation did the same thing Jobs did in his keynote address, I would accept that as an objective real world test.
Did I clarify anything for you Mr. Anonymous?
Anonymous darkened the pixels on my monitor thusly:
“What it sounds like is that you wont consider any comparison “objective” until it shows a PC running as fast or faster than a Mac.”
What is objective in running a 6 month old PC against a not shipping Mac? Hmmmm Are they shipping yet?
Everybody with 8GB of ram, raise your hands.
“The comparisons ARE RIGHT THERE… JUST LOOK AT THEM.”
yea. We did. They been slashdotted and ars.technicaed to death. Basically everyone but the brain dead apple guys say “Apple did not represent the facts, nor make the bench mark fair”. Better that that… looky at the URLs…
Apples 64-bit software JUST IS NOT IN PLACE.
Apples 64-bit software to take advantage of the processor is still on the drawing boards.
Google search “g5 benchmark limitations”
Talk amoungst yourselves…
I am more than happy to pay Apple $130 a year on their OS upgrades. OS X is so superior to Windows in every way that it is worth it to me to pay for the product. The sheer joy of using OS X is worth it, and that’s not including all the awesome apps and easy-of-functionality that come with it.
I enjoy using the best products and I am willing to pay for it. If you’re not, that’s just fine with me. I have no problem with the BMW or Porche analogy with regards to Apple.
And don’t even get me on how much their hardware is worth it. If 4 year old apples are still selling for $500 on ebay (compare that to a 4 year old Dell; there’s no comparison) it’s clearly because they are superior machines. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t hold their value like they do.
Hey, you get what you pay for.
“Can you rip and encode a DVD on a G5 faster than the time it would take to play it? Or can you do it while watching the movie?”
Yea, but there will always be that 1 second delay on the sonud. Makes music DVDs kinda suck.
Bytes256, you hit the nail on the head.
“It’s just a flesh wound, come back here and I’ll bite your knee caps off”
Macs are great, zealots suck, and the Black Knight (12.105.181.—) only hurts the cause which he so dearly seeks to represent.
“I’m not saying that its a lie”
Could have fooled me.
Well, I’ll say it. Apple lies about the performance of their systems. Just like Bill Gates lies about the security, stability and performance of Windows.
Now, prove me wrong.
”
TechNewsWorld
Apple Ships Power Mac G5
PC World – 40 minutes ago
Apple Computer on Monday announced that its newest desktop computer, the Power Mac G5, is now shipping in the single processor configuration–the dual processor 2-GHz model will ship later this month. ”
Well BITE MY TOUNGE. They shipped while I was posting.
Yes, Apple creates wonderful hardware and software year in and year out. The only time the got off track with that goal was when Gil Amelio introduced clones. (Apple hardware has always been upgradeable… except for the all in ones, much like PCs)
Apple makes great hardware and software. Thats not arugable.
Stating that Apple hardware has always been upgradeable is a joke at best.
Upgrades are there but they are expensive and a hack job most of the time.
I used to be a mac user. What do you think made me switch to the PC ? I got sick of my friends spending a couple hundred dollars every 6 months and having the latest speed demon while I was saving $2500 for my next macintosh purchase. Also the clones. I liked them. I lost faith in apple when they killed the companies making better hardware.
Personally I liked the apple clones. Power Computing made some great systems in its day. If anything the clone market showed very clearly that apple not only holds back the potential of the platform with its business practices, but they are still clinging to marketing strategies from the late 70s to early 80s. The rest of the industry moved on and we can see the results today.
I still like the macintosh but I’m damn happy to be free of the stranglehold apple had on my computing purchases.
I’m willing to use windows when x86 hardware is priced right and its an open architecture.
over 100,000 have ordered a G5, I better order mine!
W95 – WinMe
FAT32
Gradient Window Titles
Built in Zip Compression
Integrated Web Browser
more plug-n-pray
WinNT4 – WinXP
NTFS5
Gradient Window Titles
Built in Zip Compression
Integrated Web Browser
more plug-n-pray
What it cost you,
5 new CPUs (250/cpu)
5 new MotherBorads (150 – 250/Mother board)
5 new versions of RAM (99 – 300/ depending on market)
5 new hard drives (75 – 350/per drive)
5 new video cards (50 – 250/per card assuming you upgraded your MB and went from PCI to AGP)
2 new cases (50 – 250/case depending on taste and assuming you upgraded to an ATX motherboard)
2-3 new power supplies (30 – 40/power supply)
10 – 50 hrs of time total to build your boxes depending on your hardware and trouble shooting skills
100 hrs of your time to load the OS, reload it to make sure it was optimized every 6months, download drivers and patches, redownload old drivers and patches to fix things that it broke with new drivers and patches, to download your latest antivirus software after the thing destroyed your box and you reloaded everything.
99 – 150 every three years for an upgrade to the OS, then another 200 – 300 a month later to buy the full version of the OS because the upgrade didn’t work like expected.
“”The sheer joy of using OS X is worth it,…””
‘Sheer joy’?
roflmao
It’s an OS dude. An OS is a tool you use, not a life affirming experience. Turn off the computer, step away from the keyboard and have an adventure in the world outside the window, you’ve obviously been indoors too long.
“Stating that Apple hardware has always been upgradeable is a joke at best.
Upgrades are there but they are expensive and a hack job most of the time.”
Upgradeing everything but the motherboard is relatively comperable in price to a PC.
What do you consider a hack job?
“I used to be a mac user. What do you think made me switch to the PC ? I got sick of my friends spending a couple hundred dollars every 6 months and having the latest speed demon while I was saving $2500 for my next macintosh purchase.”
You should have upgraded your Mac like your PC using friends.
Your argument is akin to me saying that I hate being homes from one home builder because when my friends need to buy a new door they just went out and got one. Me, I saved up to buy a new house around my door…
“Also the clones. I liked them. I lost faith in apple when they killed the companies making better hardware.”
Some of them were better… such as the daystar machines… They raised the bar in many ways, but every other clone was significantly inferior… even if some were clocked up a bit faster.
BTW, Apple didn’t kill the clones. The clones killed the clones. most didn’t want to pay a reasonable licensing fee for the OS. Those that did pay the fee, continued cloning… until they simply went out of business due to bad management.
“Personally I liked the apple clones. Power Computing made some great systems in its day.”
The power Computing machines were faster, but the hardware was a piece of crap. Everything about them was shoddy.
“If anything the clone market showed very clearly that apple not only holds back the potential of the platform with its business practices, but they are still clinging to marketing strategies from the late 70s to early 80s. The rest of the industry moved on and we can see the results today.”
PCs use business models that were started in the same time period. That argument is ridiculous.
Just because Apple doesn’t license its platform is not an indicator of inferiority. As a matter of fact, its a very distinct advantage that is retained be utilizing the business model that they maintain.
“I still like the macintosh but I’m damn happy to be free of the stranglehold apple had on my computing purchases.”
I’m left to assume that you prefer the stranglehold that Intel or Microsoft (or both) has over you?
“I’m willing to use windows when x86 hardware is priced right and its an open architecture.”
The architecture may be open, but that only allows you to make your own computer. Don’t misconstrue that as meaning that Intel and Microsoft don;t retail their stranglehold over you.
“It’s an OS dude. An OS is a tool you use, not a life affirming experience.”
Wha? I never said it was a life affirming experience. I said it was a sheer joy to use. I have many tools that I consider to be a joy to use after using a tool that i consider to be far less efficient. This tool is no different.
“Turn off the computer, step away from the keyboard and have an adventure in the world outside the window, you’ve obviously been indoors too long.
I’m an outdoorsy person already. Your advice is appreciated but unneeded. As a matter of fact, I’m outdoors right now…
MAC is overpriced.
Regards,
Mystilleef
Basically, my understanding is to stay current on OSX upgrades, you need to spend $100-$130 every year, versus $90-$100 every 3 years for the newest Windows release, or $0 every 6 months for the newest Linux release.
There’s no spin that can change that fact.
Since 1998, I’ve purchased Win98, Win2K, WinXP. Didn’t buy Win98SE or WinME. Thats 5 Windows upgrades that (could have been purchased) in 5 years. 2K and XP cost almost $200.
Jaguar came out almost exactly 1 year ago, and Panther($120) is still a ways off.
I don’t see that Apple’s upgrade cycle is way out of line (in fact it appears cheaper than MS). You don’t have to buy any of them. You don’t have to stay current (Do you buy a new PC every month).
Overpriced
Black Knight will say: How do you figure? Apples prices are typically only slightly more, the same price slightly less or significantly less than a PC with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software configuration as that can be had on the equivilent Mac.
“”Wha? I never said it was a life affirming experience. I said it was a sheer joy to use. I have many tools that I consider to be a joy to use after using a tool that i consider to be far less efficient. This tool is no different. “”
I just wouldn’t associate using an OS with joy. I did understand what you meant, I just thought it was a funny way to put it.
“”I’m an outdoorsy person already. Your advice is appreciated but unneeded. As a matter of fact, I’m outdoors right now…””
Should take my own advice. If I get much paler I’ll start to be mistaken for an albino.
“MAC is overpriced.”
I disagree. I just looked up prices associated with “Media Access Control (MAC)” addresses, with my comparatively priced Mac, and found MAC addresses to be priced very fairly.
“I just wouldn’t associate using an OS with joy.”
Maybe that has more to do with the OS you are using than your implications of inappropriate associations of the words.
“I did understand what you meant, I just thought it was a funny way to put it.”
Perhaps you should Think Different(ly)
“sheer joy”
“it was a funny way to put it.”
You must not do a lot of reading. It’s an extremely common phrase, a hyperbole, perhaps, but common nontheless.
Others who have said that using a Mac is a “sheer joy”:
http://www.google.com/search?q=sheer+joy+mac+os+x&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-…
For comparison’s sake, still others say driving a Porsche is a “sheer joy”:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=sheer+joy+po…
As for having an outside life, don’t worry about me. My wife and young son give me all the _true_ sheer joy I’ll ever need.
Most high-end computers user I know are people who stayed up late nights trying to get a kernel to compile or getting a system to run stable after hacking some nuance of the bios which resulted in a 3% speed increase to memory operations.
And now Apple comes around a makes a machine that’s fast, nice looking, and doesn’t require all of this extra knowledge and work to use.
Of course they’re annoyed. Of course they’re threatened. If Apple’s stuff is any good, then they’ve been wasting their time.
So they spread FUD about broken applications, inconsequential complaints about how a $600 bargain PC is cheaper than a $3000 high end work station. It’s childish in a way. Isn’t there more to computing than JUST running an OS as fast as possible?
http://www.luxology.net/company/wwdc03followup.aspx
Read luxology’s statement defending their benchmarks. Similar statements could be made for Adobe (Photoshop), HMMer, Blast, and Mathematica…
But whatever… I on’t want to get involved in your flame brigade.
Driving my BMW R1150R bike is true joy …
I have a G3 B&W 300MHz with an ATI 16MB Rage Pro video card.
OS X.0 was slow, but was easy to use.
OS X.1 was faster and a free updgrade.
OS X.2 was faster and had a lot of new features.
OS X.3 should be faster and have a lot of new features.
The 6GB hard drive that came with the computer was getting to be too small, so I purchased a Fast & Wide SCSI controller (non-apple, it’s build by some German company I can’t name right now), and installed an 10GB IBM hard drive.
The system supports 2GB of RAM, I only have 320MB in it right now.
I could pull the video card out and replace it with a ATI Radeon or NVideo card. I also beleave there are some professional video cards out there that’ll work.
In short, I can make my little G3 much faster if I wanted to. Instead I’m thinking of buying a G5 1.8GHz box.
Apple keeps giving me less reasons to upgrade the hardware with each release of the OS. If my current hardware will only be getting faster with each release of the OS, why upgrade?
I was a longtime MS fan until MS started make changes that bothered me. Windows 2K was the last version of I actually liked. XP is a nightmare; they over idiot proofed it so minor network configurations that would take 10 minutes in 2K took me close to 40 minutes (why do I have to select a predefined network layout when I know how I want it and it’s not one of the offered layouts!), the EULA is over restictive, and I have several computers and I’m the only one using them, so why should I have to buy and active a copy of XP for each one? (Apple’s family plan is nicer).
Thank you.
I was looking for the Luxology statement.
Thank you. That Luxology statement is more of what I’m looking for.
What is objective in running a 6 month old PC against a not shipping Mac? Hmmmm Are they shipping yet?
Everybody with 8GB of ram, raise your hands.
Uh…they are shipping. Go check the Apple web site.
Upgradeing everything but the motherboard is relatively comperable in price to a PC.
Sure I can upgrade a harddrive or buy RAM. I can’t swap a mobo and faster proc though.
What do you consider a hack job?
The G4 PCI upgrade cards for certain mac models. Thats a hack. Install a PCI card and software for a processor upgrade !?!?
Then the price: $250.00 to $350.00 for 700 – 800Mhz. ? Thats a rip off. I have friends giving away 700-800Mhz. P3 based systems.
For that money I could have a new mobo, processor and RAM over 2Ghz. from either Intel or AMD. I can get that locally also. No waiting on FedEx.
You should have upgraded your Mac like your PC using friends.
Yeah that sounds like a hell of a plan. Pay 3 times the upgrade cost and I’m still stuck with the same mobo and a 50Mhz. bus (at the time). Get out of here.
Your argument is akin to me saying that I hate being homes from one home builder because when my friends need to buy a new door they just went out and got one. Me, I saved up to buy a new house around my door…
Not at all. You have the option of buying the same door for the same price on your house. You don’t have that option with the Mac. The proc upgrades are more expensive and more limited. Thats a fact that your zealotry can’t change boss.
Some of them were better… such as the daystar machines… They raised the bar in many ways, but every other clone was significantly inferior… even if some were clocked up a bit faster.
Of course apple didn’t allow the consumer any choice for very long did they ? Jobs killed the clones and that was that.
BTW, Apple didn’t kill the clones. The clones killed the clones. most didn’t want to pay a reasonable licensing fee for the OS. Those that did pay the fee, continued cloning… until they simply went out of business due to bad management.
Well considering that apple happily rips its users off I have no doubt they were screwing the clone manufacturers too.
PCs use business models that were started in the same time period. That argument is ridiculous.
No they don’t. The clone market for the original IBM PC changed all of that. Why do you think Commodore, Tandy, Atari and everyone else started losing business ?
Just because Apple doesn’t license its platform is not an indicator of inferiority. As a matter of fact, its a very distinct advantage that is retained be utilizing the business model that they maintain.
I didn’t say it was inferior. I said we can see where its gotten them – a small marketshare.
I’m left to assume that you prefer the stranglehold that Intel or Microsoft (or both) has over you?
What stranglehold ? If Intel’s price isn’t right I’ve got AMD. If I got a problem with Asus ? I can buy an Abit.
As for OS I can run Linux (not that I would). Windows also is very backwards compatible. Windows 2000 will be supported until 2008 sometime and it runs all current software and a good majority of my old stuff too.
The architecture may be open, but that only allows you to make your own computer. Don’t misconstrue that as meaning that Intel and Microsoft don;t retail their stranglehold over you.
Thats what I want to do ! Make my own computer! What do you think I’m bitching about here ????
Intel dosen’t hold shit over me. AMD is a good competitor and Intel keeps prices down to compete with them anyway.
MS only has a hold on the OS because no one makes a better OS on x86.
When all things are considered its no wonder the majority of the world run x86. Price/performance just can’t be beat on x86.
I’m sold and I don’t miss my performa one bit.
Tuesday.
That’s when 64 apps kick in. Adobe is releasing 64 bit updates for their software. Go take a real world test Tuesday. And I know AMD has 64 bit chips, but guess what…Windows can’t take advantage of them yet, so they are useless unless you run Linux. And then you can’t run major apps (don’t get me wrong, I am a Linux user, but there are some things it just doesn’t yet do).
Most Macs can have the processor replaced. I have a 7500 with a 450 MHz G4 in it and a G3 with a 500 MHz upgrade, both running OS X. The only ones that are not upgradable is the all in one Macs and the low end 7100 that had the CPU soldered on to the mother board. I don’t know why everyone from the PC side gets so upset when Apple releases new computers or updates their OS.
“Then the price: $250.00 to $350.00 for 700 – 800Mhz. ? Thats a rip off. I have friends giving away 700-800Mhz. P3 based systems.”
Its overpriced in comparison to other upgrade cards, but your analogy is misleading. MHz is not an accurate gauge for performance.
“[/i]Of course apple didn’t allow the consumer any choice for very long did they ? Jobs killed the clones and that was that.”[/i]
No, Jobs didn’t kill the clones. He DID however limit the license to OS 8, and required all subsequent licensees to pay a reasonable fee for licensing the OS. Some hung in there. Some did not. of those that hung in there, they eventually died due to bad management.
“Well considering that apple happily rips its users off I have no doubt they were screwing the clone manufacturers too.”
Well considering that apple does not rip off its users off its users, there’s no reason to believe that they did mistreated the clone manufacturers either.
“No they don’t. The clone market for the original IBM PC changed all of that.”
IBM didn’t license the PCs spec to anyone. It was reverse engineered.
“I didn’t say it was inferior. I said we can see where its gotten them – a small marketshare.”
And yet while maintaining continuing profitability while most other computer manufacturers are bleeding red ink. Market share is irrelevant without profitability.
“What stranglehold ? If Intel’s price isn’t right I’ve got AMD. If I got a problem with Asus ? I can buy an Abit.”
Intel or AMD….. IBM or Motorola…… Apple or Microsoft……. Tomato or Tomawtoe
“As for OS I can run Linux (not that I would).”
As can any Mac user.
“Windows also is very backwards compatible. Windows 2000 will be supported until 2008 sometime and it runs all current software and a good majority of my old stuff too.”
“Thats what I want to do ! Make my own computer! What do you think I’m bitching about here ????”
It seemed to me that you were looking for superior platform advantages. You CAN’T buy a pc that is integrated as closely as Apple’s hardware and software is. There are advantages on both fronts.
“Intel dosen’t hold shit over me. AMD is a good competitor and Intel keeps prices down to compete with them anyway.”
Its akin to the competition that the Mac experiences between chips manufacturers. The PC doesn’t have anything over the Mac in this respect.
“MS only has a hold on the OS because no one makes a better OS on x86.”
Because of illegal business practices.
“Windows can’t take advantage of [64 bit chips] yet, so they are useless unless you run Linux.
Actually, there is a 64 bit version of Windows… but you have to buy the PRO version to get it.
“And then you can’t run major apps (don’t get me wrong, I am a Linux user, but there are some things it just doesn’t yet do).”
Linux doesn’t have major apps?
Most Macs can have the processor replaced. I have a 7500 with a 450 MHz G4 in it and a G3 with a 500 MHz upgrade, both running OS X. The only ones that are not upgradable is the all in one Macs and the low end 7100 that had the CPU soldered on to the mother board. I don’t know why everyone from the PC side gets so upset when Apple releases new computers or updates their OS.
How does the 7500 handle OS X ?
Just curious. My friend has a 7500 in his closet and he wondered if it could run OS X with some work. He just dosen’t want to spend much money on it is the thing.
Most PC users don’t get upset when apple releases new computers or updates to OS X. We just laugh when we hear statements like the mac is as upgradeable or costs the same as a PC. Most of the time they don’t. The mac may compete pricewise on the very highend, but thats only one area where its comparible and thats a limited segment at that.
Good things are happening in mac land. The G5 is nice and priced well for the performance. Nothing apple offers software wise is compelling enough for me to spend the money on the hardware though.
So there you have it.
“Actually, there is a 64 bit version of Windows… but you have to buy the PRO version to get it.”
That runs on 64 bit chips but doesn’t take advantage of them. It doesn’t allow 64 bit addressing.
“Linux doesn’t have major apps?”
Linux won’t run major software from M$, Adobe, or Macromedia.
Microsoft needs to invest in people who can make better UIs. Or better yet just copy Mac OS X.
Mac users are spoiled rotten with best of breed apps. It’s amazing the crap Windows users put up with!
Last night I played with iSight and let me tell you 100% of WebCams on the PC sucks donkey balls compared to this marvel. Why do Wintel users, which are the majority, putting up with these crap apps and crap peripherals?
Why can’t we have goodies too?
“BTW, Apple didn’t kill the clones. The clones killed the clones. most didn’t want to pay a reasonable licensing fee for the OS. Those that did pay the fee, continued cloning… until they simply went out of business due to bad management.”
Oh My Gawd. You have your head buried in the sand or what?
“Does anyone else see the similarity of this situation with how Apple killed the clones…”
“Now that we know why Apple killed clones in the past, some might ask why Apple doesn’t start again now. The simple truth still applies… ”
“But does Apple want to open this market to another Macintosh computer vendor? No way. There is too much money to be made there, with systems selling for $3,500 and up. That is simply too much revenue Apple does not want to part with. It is also one of the main reasons Apple killed the clones the first time around. Just ask Power Computing… ”
“When Apple dropped support for the NuBus PowerMacs for Rhapsody, it did so in accordance with the proper vision that allowed Apple to grow into PCI. When Apple dropped Mac clones, it did so because the death of Mac clones meant that Apple could live. When Apple killed Newton, Copland, QuickDraw GX, OpenDOC, CyberDog, Power Computing, and everything else it killed, Apple killed them so that Apple could live and be reborn.”
“My UMAX S900 was a sweet machine and cost $1000 less than a 9500. I know why Apple killed the clones. If Apple went under there would be no clones. ”
You seem to be in the absolute minority of ONE that thinks that Apple did not kill the clones.
Jason darkened the pixels on my monitor thusly:
“Uh…they are shipping. Go check the Apple web site.”
I did. They shipped while I was posting. Read the post.
From Low End Macs:
“1.6 GHz 256/80 announced 2003.06.23 at $1,999; shipped 2003.08.18
1.8 GHz 512/160 announced 2003.06.23 at $2,399; shipped 2003.08.18”
Joe P darkened the pixels on my monitor thusly:
“I have a G3 B&W 300MHz with an ATI 16MB Rage Pro video card. The system supports 2GB of RAM, I only have 320MB in it right now. ”
I have 2 400Mhz G3 Pros( Blue and White for the uninformed )
As a joke we put 4 1GB ram sticks in it. Nothing could access anything above 1GB, and we called Apple, and they said “The open firmware prevents addressing anything over 1GB, with Mac OS X”
From Low End Macs:
“RAM: 64 MB or 128 MB standard, expandable to 1 GB using PC100 SDRAM (3.3V,unbuffered, 64-bit, 168-pin, 100 MHz) in 4 DIMM slots”
Care to provide some more information?
Its overpriced in comparison to other upgrade cards, but your analogy is misleading. MHz is not an accurate gauge for performance.
No my analogy is not misleading. For the same money I can buy brand new mobo, proc and RAM running an AMD or Intel processor 2Ghz. or higher that will flat out rip up any mac upgraded with a 700 or 800 Mhz G4.
For the money I’d spend upgrading my older Mac I could throw in a new video card also. There is nothing misleading about that. Its the realities of the market.
No, Jobs didn’t kill the clones. He DID however limit the license to OS 8, and required all subsequent licensees to pay a reasonable fee for licensing the OS. Some hung in there. Some did not. of those that hung in there, they eventually died due to bad management.
Yes Jobs did kill the clones. I don’t care how he went about it – it was a direct result of his decisions. Watching at minimal 2-3 companies stop producing hardware can’t be explained any other way. Esp. when there are 0 clone makers in business today.
IBM didn’t license the PCs spec to anyone. It was reverse engineered.
Whatever happened. Dosen’t matter. The market changed and prices are good now as a result.
And yet while maintaining continuing profitability while most other computer manufacturers are bleeding red ink. Market share is irrelevant without profitability.
I agree with this statement. Marketshare is nothing if you aren’t making money. I’m not arguing that apple isn’t making money. I’m saying that they limited themselves to a niche market and there is no changing that with the way they do business.
Intel or AMD….. IBM or Motorola…… Apple or Microsoft……. Tomato or Tomawtoe
Ever see a price war between Mot and IBM ? Of course not and it wouldn’t matter anyway because apple would just absorb the savings and you’d never know it.
As can any Mac user.
Sure on more expensive hardware that is more limited. I can’t for the life of me come up with any reason to run Linux on the Mac.
It seemed to me that you were looking for superior platform advantages. You CAN’T buy a pc that is integrated as closely as Apple’s hardware and software is. There are advantages on both fronts.
The things I brought up do indicate platform advantages. That wasn’t the sole purpose of my post though. I’d like to build a mac but apple makes that impossible. That annoys me and its what made me leave them the first time.
I can also see no integration advantage on the mac myself. A few of my friends still use macs. Seems to me I see the same types of problems. Printer drive issues, programs that go off in la la land. I don’t see this tight integration everyone keeps bringing up.
Its akin to the competition that the Mac experiences between chips manufacturers. The PC doesn’t have anything over the Mac in this respect.
What competition ? Mot makes crap and IBM is just gearing up. There isn’t any competition there. If there was it wouldn’t matter because apple controls the price on the end widget anyway.
Because of illegal business practices.
Its always the same shit I find
“Its MOTs fault for X or Y” –
“MS illegally did A or B” –
“Apple was ripped off from W and Z”
“The GX will unthrown Intel – JUST WAIT!”
Another common word with the mac crowd is “BECAUSE”. Its all I hear it seems when talking about the mac.
Its like being a mac user is just one big blame game and crying fest over what could have been and what will probably never be.
I’m glad to be free brother. Good day.
“How does the 7500 handle OS X ?
Just curious. My friend has a 7500 in his closet and he wondered if it could run OS X with some work. He just dosen’t want to spend much money on it is the thing.”
You need a G3 Processor, about $15, and
Mac OS 10.1.3 and
From Mac in touch. ( am I the only one with refrences? )
“I’ve installed OSX on several unsupported macs:
— an 8500 with a G3/350 upgrade card, 256mb ram, and an internal 4 gig scsi drive. It ran OK with ver. 10.1 and the onboard grahics (2mb), and later with an additional IMS twin turbo (stock card from the 9600 series). Very slow, but I only used it out of curiosity.
— a 9600 with the same G3/350, 640mb ram, USB card, firewire card, ATA card, and Rage 128. It ran great, but slow, so I put in a G4 450, and it became extremely unstable. Later, I upgraded to Jaguar, but it remained unstable, with frequent OS9 style freezes. The discussions at xlr8yourmac.com suggest that there is an issue with G4 upgrades and six-pci-slot macs.
— swapped the g4, ata card, rage 128, and usb cards to a 7600 (512mb ram). I installed jaguar, and it hasn’t crashed yet.
Note: Even though there is a plenty of horsepower and a decent video card, it still feels fairly slow. I use it as a webserver, to play Internet Radio, and to code/write. It is great for that, but it is sluggish as a graphics production machine. By contrast, the same machine running OS 9 it is REALLY fast.
Running Jaguar on a the G3 350 is frustrating for anything but a simple server. XPostFacto release notes point out that Jaguar no longer supports the 604 chip, so to run one of those, you’ll need 10.1 or less. Oh yeah … I tried 10.1 on the 7600 when it still had a 604e/200, and it was slow… a bit worse than the G3/350 with Jaguar. It made a fine webserver, though.
I recommend you upgrade your processor to at least a g3/500 or a G4/400 if you want to use this machine for anything … and get as much ram as you can afford!”
“Most PC users don’t get upset when apple releases new computers or updates to OS X. We just laugh when we hear statements like the mac is as upgradeable or costs the same as a PC.”
You have a point with the upgradable… but rarely could you ever say that a PC is cheaper. A PC allows you to buy less and therefore pay less. That doesn’t make it cheaper, makes it more configurable.
“Most of the time they don’t. The mac may compete pricewise on the very highend, but thats only one area where its comparible and thats a limited segment at that.”
Yes, in the high-end but also in every other markets Apple competes in.
“Good things are happening in mac land.”
And have been for quite some time.
“Nothing apple offers software wise is compelling enough for me to spend the money on the hardware though.”
Apple’s bundled software accounts for between $250 and $350 of the overall mac purchase as compared to a PC. The things that put it out of your price range are likely not the software, but rather, all the extra hardware you’re also buying.
“Nothing apple offers software wise is compelling enough for me to spend the money on the hardware though.”
OS X is the reason I am considering buying an Apple again, after a 12 year break. It is a well done, reasonably solid, posix desktop OS. I really don’t care if it is blazing fast or not, speed has not been a primary issue for a few years. This is slightly off topic since I am getting a powerbook, not a G5 but if the powerbook works well I would be favorably disposed towards getting a G5 in a year or two when my towers start showing a little age. It is nice to see Apple getting back on track after the dark years.
Go for the PowerBook. I’ve used the beta of Panther, and it runs on a G3 333MHz at the same speed OS 9 did. I’ve had a TiBook since December and it hasn’t had a problem yet.