“There aren’t many major changes, just a bunch of minor tweaks. Most of these are welcome additions though. The one gripe I have is that Red Hat doesn’t seem sure if they want to have this be a desktop for the average, not-very technical person (e.g., they hide the boot messages) or be one for the more advanced or technical user (e.g., Emacs is installed by default for a personal desktop).” Read the review at Linux-Universe. Screenshots are here.
Red Hat Linux 10 Beta: First Look
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The one gripe I have is that Red Hat doesn’t seem sure if they want to have this be a desktop for the average, not-very technical person (e.g., they hide the boot messages) or be one for the more advanced or technical user
Maybe they are catering for both? If you want to make a distribution/os for newbies, you don’t have to fuck over your advanced users.. Especially when those newbies “grow up”, and become advanced users.
Look at Mac OS X, they have emacs, apache, perl, python, ruby installed by default. That doesn’t make them any less easier to use, on the contrary.
I see the guy’s point (Redhat unsure of it’s role, Desktop/Server), and agree. I can’t understand why Redhat is doing this. I mean, really, IMO, RH9 is SO close to being a viable alternative desktop, but they almost refuse to go the extra mile and finish it. I assume that they don’t do this because they also want it to appeal to people who will use it for their server. Why not just split it up? Why can’t there be a “Redhat Linux Desktop” and a “Redhat Linux Personal Server,” or whatever they want to call it? Look, the desktop user probably doesn’t want to run a server, and a server admin probably doesn’t want to run a full desktop. It’s frustrating to see such a good product be so close, and yet so far. Of course, maybe this is better in RH10, I havn’t installed Severn yet.
>Look at Mac OS X, they have emacs, apache, perl, python, ruby installed by default
Yes, but these are only accessibly from the terminal or specialized apps. And the terminal itself is “burried” under the /Utilities folder.
There is not a problem with having emacs installed on RH. For a desktop, a problem would be if Emacs was on the Gnome menu, which I don’t believe it is. Therefore, I don’t see the issue here…
Isn’t it pointless to review a beta?
As if people would buy beta’s or something.
They could just write some info about it, but giving it a score is stupid.
Actually, Emacs is on the GNOME menu. There is a listing with Emacs in it.
I am not saying it is a fatal flaw, simply that RH needs to polish up what/who it wants its defaults to be geared to and adjust accordingly. As it is now, it is stuck in sort of a tweener mode.
HTH clarify a bit what I was getting at in the review.
Cheers!
I wish we could edit our posts…
that should say there is a DEVELOPMENT group listed with Emacs in it.
why don’t we have some yahoo write another god damn stupid review about redhat menus…. everyone has the right not to like bluecurve or the menus but if someone is gonna write a review please tell me something that has some substance… what is the real difference between 9 and 10beta other than the obvious… i mean this review was so dumb it makes me question if the author even knows what emacs is…
next time you think its a good idea to write a review of a linux product… don’t
Geez, I sincerely hope that’s a tenative title. If it’s not, they’re jumping version numbers WAY too fast. 9.0 should have been 8.x, and from the looks of it, “RedHat 10” should be as well.
The only consolation here is that it’s not “RedHat X”.
Jason X you are SO right! RH 9 could be the best linux desktop machine. If they would fix some (easy) things
I agree that it’s a lame review.
Here’s a question I have: Why do people think that it’s a good idea to have a graphical image blocking the text which normally scrolls up when you boot? I would much rather be able to see the text, so that I can tell which services are enabled, and so that I can tell if there are any problems, etc., etc.
Geez, I sincerely hope that’s a tenative title. If it’s not, they’re jumping version numbers WAY too fast. 9.0 should have been 8.x, and from the looks of it, “RedHat 10” should be as well.
I’m really getting tired of hearing this.
First of all, RedHat can set their versions to whatever they want to…remember when Slackware did it because their numbers were so far behind, and when Mandrake forked from RedHat they used the current RedHat version number(at least I’m assuming they did, since I’ve never seen any version of Mandrake less than 6.0). Version numbering schemes are completely arbitrary, only a fool uses them to compare competitive products.
Second of all, RedHat has a very simple version numbering scheme, any updates that do not break binary compatibility receive a minor version update, any updates that do break binary compatibility receive a major version update.
Since they are targeting using the 2.6 kernel for RedHat 10, I would imagine that binary compatibility would be broken. Also, just because they don’t change the way bluecurve looks everytime they release a new verion doesn’t mean that an upgrade to RedHat 10 won’t be justifiable. Just like in 9, there will be many under-the-hood changes, and very few superficial ones.
That’s because maybe you are and advanced linux user, newbies linux usersdont want to know anything about it.
Here’s a question I have: Why do people think that it’s a good idea to have a graphical image blocking the text which normally scrolls up when you boot? I would much rather be able to see the text, so that I can tell which services are enabled, and so that I can tell if there are any problems, etc., etc.
Well, not everybody is like you, first of all, and secondly being Linux, this feature can be disabled by “power-users” such as yourself. In fact, I’d imagine that Red Hat will offer a graphical configuration tool that lets you modify this setting with your favorite rodent.
In addition, it wouldn’t surprise me if they had a “kill” button that let you go back to the text messages during boot if you suspected something was wrong.
Graphical bootups are becoming yet another desktop expectation, even BIOSes do it now.
Exactly why was he reviewing Severn…
I really do not think this review belongs on Linux-Universe.
Maybe this guy should use windows…because he really has no clue about what makes Linux work. Maybe he could review the Pixmaps and Icons….This is just another example of a lame review of a Beta we are all going to download and install anyway.
I see the guy’s point (Redhat unsure of it’s role, Desktop/Server), and agree. I can’t understand why Redhat is doing this.
Doing what? Including Emacs with the default install? Emacs (and Vim) should be installed by default, if for no other reason than because they are very popular. It’s totally configurable anyway. I fail to see how having Emacs buried under “Programming” off of the main menu (apologies if they moved it, I’m still using RH8, which works great for me) would intimidate your average user. Windows XP certainly includes plenty of programs that the average user shouldn’t go near in the default install. And the Windows XP installer is far less configurable! This is a total non-issue.
I mean, really, IMO, RH9 is SO close to being a viable alternative desktop, but they almost refuse to go the extra mile and finish it.
Your comment should have “for Jason P” (or perhaps some other class of users, but I doubt you are any more qualified to speak for a whole class of users than I am) after “alternative desktop”, because I (and others I am sure) use RedHat daily as my workstation OS.
So, what is missing from RedHat 9 that, if added, would allow it to be a “viable alternative desktop” for Jason P?
Is it MP3 and and DVD support?
I don’t think RedHat is confused about what they want their distribution to be. They want to create the best general purpose distribution that includes _only_ free (in both senses) software that is not of questionable legality. The questionable legality of MP3 and DVD support is why those features aren’t included.
RedHat also wants to make money so they can pay their bills. Don’t we all? I would agree that they are confused about how to do that.
RedHat 2003
RedHat finally admits to not knowing the difference between a good desktop and theirs. They purchase and integrate Ximian. They corner the market on both Desktop and Server.
We see grumblings and rumblings from troll monkeys about how unfair this was to Microsoft’s Empire, how SCO is going to sue all RedHat users because they copyrighted screen shots of a desktop once, and … “I remember how BSD/Gentoo really rocked!”
RH9 (and the new beta) is great, but it needs a bit of spit and polish. No huge new features. Just integrate some things together a bit.
Of course, those little things are usually the most difficult.
Oh, every review seems to give RH grief that they don’t support MP3 and/or DVD. These items cost money and are covered by intelectual property laws (the same laws that keep Linux from being co-opted by M$). If the Linux world won’t respect the MP3/DVD IP, how should we expect the corporate world to respect the Linux IP?
Since they are targeting using the 2.6 kernel for RedHat 10, I would imagine that binary compatibility would be broken.
Yeah right. You can download 2.6 beta rpms for older RedHat versions right now if you want.
RedHat makes an excellent product. RH9 is my favorite Linux out there right now (and I’m certainly not one of the MP3/DVD support idiots, either). My biggest problem is that, to RedHat, the desktop seems like an afterthought. The last OS we had that really had anything going for it as far as competing with Windows, was BeOS. Well, that’s long dead, so now we’re right back to zero. Linuxes are getting close, but I really wish that RedHat would just decide to push RedHat Linux over the edge. They need to just say “OK! We’re going to make RH10 (or whatever) as good as Windows. We’re going to make it fast, easy, and compatible.” I guess what I’m saying is that I want for RedHat to become less a distro and more of an OS in it’s own right. I realize that that’s a lot of work, maybe too much. But of all the companies, RedHat is really one of the few I think could deliver.
Anyway, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe RedHat isn’t interested, maybe they are, and they *are* working to get there. albeit slowly. Oh well.
“Linuxes are getting close, but I really wish that RedHat would just decide to push RedHat Linux over the edge. They need to just say “OK! We’re going to make RH10 (or whatever) as good as Windows. We’re going to make it fast, easy, and compatible.”
exactly! but unfortunately, red hat obviously sees no market for a non-corporate desktop (yet?). but i really wonder why the other big commercial distros like suse or mandrake also don’t do that-most pieces of the puzzle are already in place!
but hopefully the new communitycentered approach of redhat will accelerate that process, instead of further slowing it down.
Why all this talk about the desktop and menus?
I don’t understand the problem at all … the look of the desktop and the entire menu system is totally configurable, reguardless of which Window Manager you choose (normally KDE or Gnome).
You can use the BlueCurve stuff … pick a Gnome or KDE theme … or build your own theme.
Poor multimedia support.
I think they live in another dimension where people don’t whatch videos, play music etc.
About half the peeps here don’t seem to understand the difference between a first-look at a beta and a full review. It’s a brief overview/first look, not a full review, hence I focused on what things are different or improved. The short answer to that, from the POV of the desktop experience is “not much”. If somebody thinks there are some major changes that I missed, I would love to hear them. Silly comments such as “heheh, lame, review the pixmaps next time” really aren’t useful in any way. 🙂
As for the emacs comment that seems to be causing so much controversy – if they are going to “dumb down” Linux and gear it towards the average desktop person, then no programming tools belong in the “Personal Desktop” default selection. Either aim for the average user or aim for the advanced user/programmer. RH still doesn’t seem to know which they are aiming for and are somewhere “inbetween”.
To Sean: “Oh, every review seems to give RH grief that they don’t support MP3 and/or DVD. These items cost money and are covered by intelectual property laws (the same laws that keep Linux from being co-opted by M$)”
First, thanks for the constructive, non-judgemental feedback. 🙂
I didn’t give them grief over it not supporting MP3, I actually said I understand the reasons they don’t (and haven’t in the past either). I “gave them grief” over not giving a meaningful dialog box or other feedback on how the user can obtain MP3 support. Once again, they appear to be making (or attempting to make) Red Hat more towards the “average user” desktop, but the dialog will give the user the impression that “their shiny new Linux system” can’t play MP3s. All I said is they should give them a link or instructions on how to get MP3 support so as not to confuse people not that they are wrong for not including the codecs themselves. (Note: these are not the same sort of people that read OS News).
Cheers!
I run Redhat. Its the only distro that has managed to stay on my pc for any reasonable length of time. (To think the only reason I downloaded and installed it in the first place was because of the whole Bluecurve controversy. As they say, all publicity is good publicity). I think it has come very far in addressig a lot of the problems faced by users like myself.
However, I wish they would include a low latency patched kernel with their releases. Just give us a number of kernels, then for the ‘advanced install’, let people choose the kernel according to their needs. I hate xmms skipping when I am changing desktops or tabs in my browser.
“I didn’t give them grief over it not supporting MP3, I actually said I understand the reasons they don’t (and haven’t in the past either). I “gave them grief” over not giving a meaningful dialog box or other feedback on how the user can obtain MP3 support.”
In a court of law thats called aiding and abeting crimanl activity. If RedHat does not have a liscense for mp3 or DVD usauge they’ll get in trouble for pointing people towards the illegal mp3 plugin or DeCSS. Unless you want RedHat being sued big time by the folks who control the mp3 standard or by the big hollywood companies out there then I would not recommend you advocate such a thing. It sucks but thats the country and laws you live in man, deal with it.
Ok- first, there was the last RH beta, called “Shrike…” And now, this beta is called “Severn.” Both are characters from Dan Simmon’s “Hyperion Cantos” book series- Shrike being… well, the Shrike, and Severn being Joseph Severn, the cybrid, and John Keat’s caretaker in his last days. Curious. Someone at RH must be a fan!
Looks like another win by RedHat. I mostly concur with the reviewer, although I think that he makes too big a deal out of xmms suckage. Hopefully patent issues will change, and deCSS and MP3 support will be legal in the future… maybe.
-Erwos
Support for DVD and MP3 in Red Hat desktop will happen. All they did was just create a “Red Hat Linux” project. This focuses their efforts on the proprietary suite (Advanced Server / Oracle Database support etc..). They can’t possibly solely rule the desktop using GNU software at the moment. So the beta was spun off from 9 and that will be the basis of their “Community” distro. They are heavily developing a Desktop distro which will be aimed at the corporate desktop FIRST. Anyone who reads CNET News.com shall know this. I have even watched streaming video of the CEO stating this. Next a home distro will follow in a couple of years. Along with more focus on their Embedded developers platform, they are working closely with IBM and Japanese electronics giants to make this happen. This desktop will be copyrighted. There was an article about no more “free” linux, well to an extent that’s what will happen. Give it another 5 years or so. Staying on the bleeding edge all day makes you all crazy. Take a break form Linux for awhile and come back in 5 years
It will be like night and day.
Of course you can turn the GUI boot off
vi /etc/sysconfig/init
# Turn on graphical boot
GRAPHICAL=yes # or no?
BTW it REALLY sucks everytime there is anything about
Redhat 70% of the threads are about fricking MP3.
you ppl suck!
Although, this is probably easier said than done, Redhat should provide a version of their software with DVD and MP3 playback. The cost of this version should reflect the cost of providing those multimedia licenses. My guess is that there are probably a good number of users who would pay to have these features working out of the box. I realize this is probably a pipe dream but I don’t always want to mess around with configuring dvd or mp3 playback when I set up a new machine.
Why are we so overly concerned about the computer illiterate user. They wouldn’t even consider a Linux operating system to begin with, especially with the likes of Mac OS and Windows in the arena. And even if they did, Lindows, currently the easiest Linux distribution to install, will certainly be their choice. As for Red Hat, I don’t even know where they stand among the Linux distributions, or what their purpose is. To me, they are Yet Another Linux Distribution.
P.S. I use neither Lindows or Red Hat, as I am a poweruser.
Shrike is not RH beta. Shrike is RH9. The last beta before Severn is called Phoebe.