A Linux victory in Munich would be a stunning blow. So Ballmer visited Mayor Christian Ude to assure him Microsoft would do what it takes to keep the city’s business. Documents obtained by USA TODAY show Microsoft subsequently lowered its pricing to $31.9 million and then to $23.7 million — an overall 35% price cut. The discounts were for naught.
Linux Took on Microsoft, and Won Big in Munich
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
>>The result in Munich shows that the world’s largest software >>company is again under attack from a powerful outside force.
>>But this time the encroacher isn’t government antitrust >>lawyers or a rival tech giant.
Interesting to hear this.Who is attacing Microsoft?
I wonder what’s next: London, Paris, Tokio?
One’s for sure: The party’s going on…:)
guys, I asked fairly.
The way that article explains you the fact that Linux/OSS solutions took over Microsoft solutions, is missleading the reader. It gave me feeling as if there were blody battle between them in Muenchen. In this case, it just simple that the city CHOSE Linux/OSS among many alternatives. That must not be interpereted as ” an attack on Microsft”. got the point?
So at what point does a competitor stop being “up and coming” and actually start being “here and competing”? It seems odd that everything else in IT is new, old and then forgotten in the space of two years, yet an OS that has been around for over a decade is still perceived as “up and coming” Its worrying, in a way.
we have no dissent, but is that relevant?
the result for M$ is the same.
“got the point?”
Hehe…Yes, and it’s a valid one. 🙂 Apologies for the premature flaming. You might want to elaborate a little more next time, though.
The title and tone of the piece are melodramatic, to be sure. I guess the author decided that “Munich chooses Linux” wouldn’t have the same “Clash of the Titans” ring to it.
“In this case, it just simple that the city CHOSE Linux/OSS among many alternatives”
Ok, but a huge number of things could be dismissed this way. For instance: WordPerfect was never attacked by Microsoft Word; customers simply CHOSE it among many alternatives. Technically this may well be true, but from the point of view of the two competiting products in question, it never is; one has been defeated by the other.
So yeah, there’s a bit of a journalistic flourish to add pizzazz to the title of the piece, but nevertheless the point, that Linux *is* a big threat to Microsoft, is successfully made. Government contracts are a tasty piece of pie, are high-profile, and will certainly help to give Linux an air of credibility in the corporate sector.
Also, corporations always see signing a deal as a “win”; hey, it’s competition, the essence of capitalism, right? So it’s a “victory” for SuSE in particular and, by extension, Linux in general. So the battle-line imagery *isn’t* really quite as much of a stretch as it might appear, I guess, though they are laying it on a bit thick.
So it’s a “victory” for SuSE in particular and, by extension, Linux in general.
Exactly… The more people that use Linux (any linux) on a daily basis, the better.
Exactly… The more people that use Linux (any linux) on a daily basis, the better.
Why?
Is wish microsoft fought for my custom that hard 😉
one benefit of a huge userbase is, that software and hardware companies are being seduced to support you.
Why?
More possible developers, more incentive for developers to develop for this platform, more documentation, more found bugs, pick your reason.
It will. The standard prices are already dropping.
Seems the best way to get good discounts from Microsoft is to take a serious look at Linux, the more serious the look the bigger the discounts.
If you have a lot of money to spend the only wise option is to take a serious look at Linux.
You’re all being to analytical about this. We won a big battle, there’s nothing more to argue!
I think it’s great that Linux is making progress in the desktop market and putting some serious pressure on Microsoft. We may never take over the desktop market but at least we’re effectively throwing our weight around with Microsoft and showing them that Linux is a true and capable contender. Bravo!
– j
I still think Linux TCO is higher than Microsoft’s, but I really hope I’m proved wrong. The cost of licensing, etc., is nothing compared to staff costs. THAT’S where the real money issue is.
have you read the article?
in this particular case even licenses where cheaper for the ms solution.
munich decided otherwise mainly because they wanted to avoid lock-in in the future, and create a solid base that lasts for a while, without being subject to ms decisions (sure they promise 6 yr support, who cares if they do/don’t in the end).
this time for once it was not about being the cheapest, it was about which is the smartest solution in the long run. seems to be linux
“The cost of licensing, etc., is nothing compared to staff costs. THAT’S where the real money issue is.”
I assume you’re talking about support staff…
I don’t know. Linux admins tend to cost more than Windows admins, but then, a Linux admin can administer more boxes, so fewer support staff would be required.
The article look like a flame bait. Why must the witer make it look like there are battle between Linux and Windows. Do we need to make Linux just another M$? This world supposed to have more good platform choices which can lead to no more excessive charges.
“Do we need to make Linux just another M$?”
No, but the two compete because they are both operating systems. Another M$ won’t be able to compete with M$ anyway….
i live in Munich and i’m very happy about that 🙂
btw: Munich is in Bavaria/Germany 🙂
But, fact is that only Linux has won because a social-democrat, Christian Ude, is the major of the city.
The whole other party, CSU, is against Linux. But this doesn’t care because they are not in power.
Good for you! I wish to have a same good major for my city too!
“Do we need to make Linux just another M$?”
Linux is not a company.
Linux is under GPL.
I think that should tell you enough, unless you’re willing to tell me WTF you are talking about?
“The cost of licensing, etc., is nothing compared to staff costs. THAT’S where the real money issue is.”
I assume you’re talking about support staff…
I don’t know. Linux admins tend to cost more than Windows admins, but then, a Linux admin can administer more boxes, so fewer support staff would be required.”
Only in high wage countries. In low wage countries support costs are almost meaningless – US50 cents an hour or less in some countries.
Munich and Germany in general is going to have the edge in the computer industry in the future.
throughout history Germany has always had the lead in science and technology. I’m not a german, nor a very big fan of them, but chemistry, biology, … wouldn’t be where it is today if there weren’t any smart germans leading the way every now and then.
how & why?
im(very H)o the germans/europeans have a better/healtier businessmodel. Instead of buying/selling hot air balloons, raising stock price that way, then outbuying other company’s with the no-value stock. Most of them are actually looking for quality, customer bonding (through value, not lock-in), and long term decisions …
off course this is a huge generalisation, but the nations/regions with common sense and a healthy economy will prevail over the get-rich-fast mentality
(don’t flame me because i can’t really explain this well in english)
Yes, Munich choosing Linux is a big deal, but I think there is one very important point of the article that most people are overlooking. The fact that MS had no problem about discounting their offer by 35% goes to show just how much money they are making on their software. Yes everybody knows their software is expensive but this is a glaring example of how much they are raking people over the coals. As a taxpayer, I am infuriated that my government is spending way too much on MS software.
If I were in charge of a government agency or entity (city, town, etc) and I was a tried and true Windows buyer, I would threaten MS with a change to Linux. This no holds barred approach to trying to undersell Linux can only benefits the taxpayers paying for this stuff.
And yes, I know that all you devil’s advocates will say that this is just business that MS is trying to get what they can. I agree that it is business, but being a monopoly like MS is not fair business. I hope that more and more people will wake up to the arrogance of the MS behemoth and try to do something about it.
I know what you mean. Although some linux users may not like it, the main support for Linux adoption is coming from the left field, namely, Social Deomcracts and Labour.
Funny, Eugenia Loli-Queru hasn’t posted the news I submitted regarding Air NZ and its continuing adopting of Linux, Java and Solaris for their server consolidation. Another funny thing is that they’re finally turning a profit. Maybe that is due to the CEO being a bean counter 😉
German politicians choosing a German based Operating System rather than Microsoft (reducing prices dramatically) indicates to me that the decision was more about politics than economics.
As an aside, some mentioned something about “Tokio”; as it happens Fujitsu won a contract a few days back with the Japanese goverment to build a Linux based staff administration system or something. Again, it was small biscuits though.
>But, fact is that only Linux has won because a social->democrat, Christian Ude, is the major of the city.
thats true, because to reduce our (munichs) high cost, decitions are no longer based on facts and research but by the dice Christian Ude rolls. so he and his dice alone are responseable for this descition.
>The whole other party, CSU, is against Linux. But this >doesn’t care because they are not in power.
You obvously have no clue about our (german) political system: if one party brings up a point, the other one will tell the direct oposite no matter how stupid the point is. All they care is to tell the public the other one is wrong. But in fact the CSU was never against Linux, all they wanted was to get another offering from SuSE/IBM to see how far they can drop their prices.
Beside from that, the current munich city council consists of members from 8 parties, so please explain what “The whole other party” should mean.
If Linux takes off in these countries which it appears like it will, than it’s going to get uncomfortable in North America because rather than adopt Linux and capitalize on it, the North Americans are trying to force Microsoft on the rest of the world.
The outcome will continue to show in the press as the workstation users interface with the Microsoft world. (and I’m rooting for Linux) That said, however, is how difficult it will be for Munich’s public servants to exchange information with public servants outside the Munich Intranet. I suspect that when files can’t be read, the formatting looks “weird” and problems arise that the Linux users will have to defend (by reformatting and perhaps moving to a Microsoft box) their Word Processing, Presentation, Spreadsheet, and Access database files.
But them, this same Mayor can tell the German Feds he doesn’t need their money and “snub his nose” at the upper levels of German and European bureauracy.
Could Microsoft secretly be supporting Sun’s $1B lawsuit against IBM in an attempt to kill Linux? And will it spend even more as a result of this loss? Watch the press.
What I found most interesting was the insight into the lengths that Microsoft will go to get a contract.
They were willing to cut their prices really steep, offer millions in FREE training, break the bundling of Microsoft Office and only provide Microsoft Word, and allow Munich to ignore, and therefore almost double, their otherwise mandatory upgrade cycle.
Sounds like a Monopoly.
You obvously have no clue about our (german) political system: if one party brings up a point, the other one will tell the direct oposite no matter how stupid the point is. All they care is to tell the public the other one is wrong. But in fact the CSU was never against Linux, all they wanted was to get another offering from SuSE/IBM to see how far they can drop their prices.
This call you a “political system”? Sadly, it’s often true but this is not a political system, mate…
And one is for sure. If the current major of munich would be a CSU-politician the future OS would be WindowsXP.
Thank God the future is now WindowsXP, because that would mean that people would have to become slaves.
… this kind of migration is a big test that will result on the final conclusion : Can we choose Linux to be used by a large amount of different peoples ?
If the Munich story fails, it would be the end to the Linux on Desktop adventure…
“If the Munich story fails, it would be the end to the Linux on Desktop adventure…”
Eh? No, it wouldn’t, for the same reason that the removal of Microsoft’s operating system from the Munich administration does not herald the death of Windows.
This sounds like garbage. Linux locks you in just as much as Microsoft. Anyone who thinks that buggy inoperable SW is somehow less of a lock in, is probably poor and smelly like all linux users. And the german government chose to spend 30% more of german tax money for no reason? Wow. I’m surprised that they don’t get indicted for fraud. And I thought Germans were good accountants.
Wow! In four measley lines, you managed to make no less than six false statements, two nonsensical, two juvenile insults and one racial slur. Are you aiming for the Troll of the Year award?
In fact, your post is so blatantly and completely wrong that I suspect you might really be a misguided Linux advocate trying to portray Windows proponents as incoherent, insensitive idiots on glue by posing as one…
Thank you Archie. I’m touched an honored by your admiration.
BTW In your fancy 2+2+1+47-5=6 math, there, did you actually find something you could rebut, or were you just shocked and outraged that someone could call Linux buggy and inoperable in a backward and forward compatible kind of way? Because I’d like to talk to you but you don’t seem to have anything coherent to say. Frothing at the mouth again, old chap?
Wien, capital of Austria, is considering to switch to Linux.
It takes more than that to shock and outrage me. I don’t need to “rebut” anything (learn to spell, boy), since you didn’t really present arguments to “rebut” in the first place. Anayway, all the statements you made are so easily disproved that it’s not even worth my time.
Your insults don’t even make any sense! “Fancy 2+2+1+47-5=6 math”? Come on! What are you, 16? And as to whom is “frothing at the mouth,” I have to keep myself from bursting into laughter as I write this! Thank you, troll, you gave me a good laugh.
Do you really think I’d be angered by such a feeble attempt at trolling? Why would I be furious that someone would say that Linux is “buggy and inoperable” when I know first-hand that it isn’t (and in fact is less buggy that Windows)? On the contrary, the most you got out of me is a smile. You give yourself too much credit. At least come up with convincing criticism before you come trolling around here!
Please go on, this is quite funny!
could they also use wine in wien? just kidding, for americans the capital of australia is known as vienna
BUT THAT IS GOOD NEWS!
What I don’t understand is why the Linux option is 1.5 times more expensive that the microsoft option. Even without the discount, the microsoft option is only 2.5 percent more, sounds like a good deal to me. I thought one of the main selling points of Linux was that is was cheaper?
You’ve hit it on the head Herbert, The reason Linux was the most expensive was that the original linux bid was from perfection itself – IBM at $40mil. Next, the germans got a bid from a german company, and next a bid from MS at 30% lower than the suse bid. The wastefull imbeciles picked the [lowest functionality,highest cost,most buggy] bid for political reasons. Only a very disturbed individual would believe that linux offers anything more than windows XP. Windows XP should be priced twice SUSE.
They deserve exactly what they get. No wonder german economy is in shambles. This isn’t a win for linux. This is a win for german idiocy and nationalism and corrupt politicians.
I only just spotted that the Linux deal was also discounted by 10 percent from 39.5 million compared to M$ orignal 36.6 million. Thus from the beginning M$ offer was 7.3 percent cheaper (2.9 million). I do hope they’ve costed the future maintenance of Linux correctly otherwise they’re in for a shock. This is going to be an interesting test for Linux.
call it what you want then, call it fairies dancing on a magic pumpkin.
people can convince themselves of anything, i’m sure you’ll have no problem doing so.
as for Bill and Steve…you damn well know THEY called it an attack…and i’m sure they are working hard to prevent similar losses in the future.
hey “aa”…quit fooling yourself. i’ve got friends who work at redmond.
it’s an attack.
The staff costs for Linux will go down as Linux becomes more widely deployed, since more and more admins will be trained for it and not Windows.
This is almost a chicken and egg problem. If Linux gets adopted, then it will blow Windows out of the water in terms of TCO, but it won’t get adopted unless the TCO is at least somewhat better than Windows from the get go.
If Linux is too difficult and expensive now, however, then the open source community will continue to improve it, so there’s no need to worry. We have time
Windows XP should be priced twice SUSE.
Well, in the UK, WinXP Home is priced about 2.722 time more than SuSE 8.2 professional. (£163.22 from Dabs.com, vs £59.99 from http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk). SuSE comes with far more basically all the apps that I need. WinXP just comes with the OS. What’s your point?
The wastefull imbeciles picked the [lowest functionality,highest cost,most buggy] bid for political reasons.
Strong words. Care to elaborate on lowest functionality, most buggy, highest cost? Other posters have already mentioned. They chose Linux to avoid being locked in. Don’t like what SuSE is doing, go RedHat/Mandrake/Debian/etc. Sick of Linux? Move your source to FreeBSD, Solaris, or even Windows easily. Try doing that with MS. Heck MS Office documents aren’t truly portable between different versions either.
When SCO kills Linux, which we all know they will, I hope Microsoft charges Munich alot more money than what they bid. Munich is in for a shock. They picked the crappiest OS to run their city on and it will come back to haunt them when the judge favors for SCO. I cant wait for that day, then I will be telling every Linux user ” I told you so ” and I will be lauging at Munich when Microsoft charges them an arm and a leg to get Windows. Linux isnt even half as good as Windows, but not to worry you idiots will learn someday.
“support costs for linux will go down”:
You mean it is too high now? Is that possibly because MS spends money on he best online support system ever invented? Unless major linux vendors spend money on a NON GPL support system, support costs for Linux will stay higher than for MS where they are now. So much for TOC. If linux had to support nearly as much HW as MS, its TOC would skyrocket because of its crappy lack of integration.
“If linux is deficient now we will improve it”:
And MS is incapable of improvement?
“Linux is less buggy, has lower TOC and more functionality than windows”: Ummm, what? Its obviously more buggy. Have you ever used Windows XP even once? Tried the disgusting RH 9?
TOC is obviously higher for linux- I need to read for two days just to use my cd burner and I end up having to *buy* SW. Almost any complex high functionality thing requires the same extra effort and price.
Any time I need to do something, i can’t just click and use logical menus in an integrated app+OS. I have to research and pray. Linux just doesn’t pass the grandmother test and never will.
Linux obviously has less functionality – most of the apps are very hard to use and just plain broken and there is no way to get help because no one spent the time designing integrated products in the first place. MS is number one because it integrated SW and made computers usuable. As a USER I thank MS profusely. Linux, wastes my time and insults me. Now do you understand?
“MS Office documents aren’t truly portable between different versions either.”
FUD and this whole subject is VERY unfavorable for linux.
Furthermore, the whole “locked in issue” is a complete red herring. People pay money for integrated MS products because they WORK. Linux zealots have neither money nor the desire to use their computers to accomplish tasks and get on with their lives. Linux is tied to these brain damaged time waisting users. Anyone who runs linux deserves it.
“I need to read for two days just to use my cd burner and I end up having to *buy* SW”
Did you have to read for two days to figure out how to post on OSNews.com?
Microsoft is garbage. The people of Munich won and there is no need for Microsoft anymore, they are free of the tyrant.
This is not a linux revolution or anything like that. This is simply the goverment being very intelligent. Why give millions of dollars away to an american company (does not matter if ti is Windows XP or MAC) when you can invest in your own economy and help Germany based Suse? They invested in their economy, they did not care about price or OS, they knew both OS would get the job done and selected the one that benefited the people’s interest, wich is obvious , the German based one.
Hurrah for Suse Linux! Hurrah for München!
“Is that possibly because MS spends money on he best online support system ever invented?”
That’s your best one so far! I almost fell down my chair laughing! (You’ve got to have experienced Microsoft support at least once in you life to understand how funny that is.)
“TOC is obviously higher for linux- I need to read for two days just to use my cd burner and I end up having to *buy* SW.”
I suppose you mean TCO…nevermind the fact that it is a business issue, and you’re clearly making a (totally fictitious) “home desktop” complaint.
Hint: K3b. It’s more intuitive than any CD burning program I’ve ever used on Windows. And Mandrake 9.1 automatically configures ATAPI CD-burners.
“Any time I need to do something, i can’t just click and use logical menus in an integrated app+OS. I have to research and pray. Linux just doesn’t pass the grandmother test and never will.”
Sorry, I didn’t realize you were a grandmother. But perhaps you should actually try the OS. That way you could actually adress real issues instead of making ones up based on distorted interpretations of comments others have made.
Let’s just say that if you were a paid MS shill, and I was Bill Gates, I’d ask for my money back. Another reason to believe that you may be a crypto-penguinhead trying to portray Windows users as ignoramuses.
And how exactly would that happen? So far, all there is is a lawsuit about breach of contract with SCO. SCO has already released any offending code under the GPL, so the code is now open. Bear in mind that they have continued to distribute SCO Linux a full month after stating that there was offending code in the kernel – and in fact are still distributing GPL’d updates to their SCO Linux clients (under the GPL, again). The GPL forbids to grant immunity to a group of users while denying it to another.
And since the GPL is based on copyright law, which is built on stronger foundations that those governing software licenses (as contracts, licenses can be made invalid if legally unsound, while copyright cannot be taken away), SCO cannot hope to win a battle against “Linux” – which is why, outside of grand theatrics, they have not filed an IP suit at all (i.e. copyright or patent infrigement).
In any case, you can bet that Dan McBride was told by the CELF members that if he tried to lay owner ship over Linux, the various consortium members (industry lightweight Matsushita Electric, Sony, Hitachi, NEC, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung, Sharp and Toshiba) would each take turns grinding his bones into dust. These guys are betting billions on Linux, they’re not going to get impressed by SCO’s veiled threats (especially seeing how IBM remains unimpressed – and rightly so – to this day).
Man, sucks to be you when your last, great hope of seeing Linux defeated crumbles before your eyes.
“Linux is less buggy, has lower TOC and more functionality than windows”: Ummm, what? Its obviously more buggy. Have you ever used Windows XP even once? Tried the disgusting RH 9?
TOC is obviously higher for linux- I need to read for two days just to use my cd burner and I end up having to *buy* SW. Almost any complex high functionality thing requires the same extra effort and price. [/i]
Yet another claim that is unsubstantiated. I use RedHat 9 on a daily basis. It is my primary desktop OS, and I’m posting this on a RedHat 9 machine. What bugs are you referring to? I use Windows XP as well, and it is a great OS. But I use RedHat because it comes with all the development tools that I need.
TOC is obviously higher for linux- I need to read for two days just to use my cd burner and I end up having to *buy* SW. Almost any complex high functionality thing requires the same extra effort and price.
As for CD burning, you must be pretty thick to need 2 days to figure out how to use it. If X-CD-Roast doesn’t cut it, and to be fair, it looks slightlty primitive, get k3b. Its free, and works just like Nero. Most distros come with it, for some reason RedHat 9 doesn’t. Pretty certain a Windows head won’t take 2 days to figure that one out.
Phillip, you are not the person setting up the Linux boxes, they are employing professional Linux I.T. Staff from IBM/Suse to do this. All the end user has to do is use the system. Sure, it will take some people a couple of joules of energy engaging their brains in learning a slightly different GUI but in all, I’m sure the German users are capable of this. Not to mention learning is fun and makes you feal you are a live (that’s why Microsoft changes its GUI’s constantly from upgrade to upgrade just look at Office (-; ).
Now I can sympathise with your home Linux usage but you know, if you just try keeping at it you might actually learn how do do things quickly (hint try Gentoo (portage), Debian or at least Apt-Get for RPM’s under Redhat). It really doesn’t take too much. If you find Windows fine then stay with it. Hey, if you’re looking for a change then try all the other OS’s out there and see which one is to your liking but please, don’t make statements about things you have absolutely no idea about. It makes you look silly.
<anti-GPL rant>
@ BP:
> “Do we need to make Linux just another M$?”
>
> Linux is not a company.
> Linux is under GPL.
The GPL has monopolized the non-commercial software scene, and not for the better. I remember times when “shareware” meant high-quality, polished software that does the job, usually better than commercial counterparts. People polished their product till it shone, and took pride in their handiwork.
Today, every pimly kid knowing how to type “gcc” does “release early, release often” – crap that’s hardly useable even for the very purpose it has been “designed” for. And if you point out defects, you usually get a “fix yourself” response.
Hint: I have my own projects, I don’t have the *time* to fix broken stuff – or dig through two dozen different pieces of software aiming at the same purpose and doing a bad job of it to find the one that doesn’t blow up in my face or drowns me in dependencies.
If one starts a new project and asks for people being interested in creating a quality product, the response you get is “it’s not GPL, you’re evil”.
GPL gave birth to tons of bad software, plus another ton of hardly bearable, plus a couple of nice projects that *could* need a brush-up in user interface, ease of administration, and quality documentation.
That being said…
@ Philip:
> No wonder german economy is in shambles. This isn’t
> a win for linux. This is a win for german idiocy and
> nationalism and corrupt politicians.
Nice that you’re not telling us where you reside so we can’t return fire, eh?
Last time I looked, it wasn’t Germany piling up a 400 billion deficit (like the US) or faking reasons to wage a war of revenge and greed (like the US and UK).
And before you jump at me virtually:
1) my asbestos underwear is firmly in place, and
2) if you call us nationalist and corrupt, you’re hardly in a place to argue if you receive return fire.
philip, who is philip ? honestly why people even bother replying to his rubbish. he is probably just a sad lonley kid who plays computer games all day.
Yeah, he’s just a troll. Actually, a troll newbie – still go to learn how to avoid common newbie mistakes, like racial/national slurs and the like. But he’s getting some very enlightened responses, which isn’t all bad!
” “support costs for linux will go down”:
You mean it is too high now? Is that possibly because MS spends money on he best online support system ever invented? Unless major linux vendors spend money on a NON GPL support system, support costs for Linux will stay higher than for MS where they are now. So much for TOC. If linux had to support nearly as much HW as MS, its TOC would skyrocket because of its crappy lack of integration. ”
I think he meant PC support will go down, Linux already has a TCO lower than Windows. If MS has spent that much money on their online support system then I suggest they ask for their money back, MS online support sucks, to put it mildly. I could think of other words for MS online support but I will probably get modded down. Their telephone support is pretty good tho. Munich went with IBM and SuSE, Im glad they did because SuSE support is outstanding. Apple computer and SuSE have the best support I have seen since Compaq. And just to go a little further, with MS when it was time for my company to upgrade last time, to upgrade all the workstations and the servers it was going to cost us $9,000.00 in licensing alone, we kept our hardware and went with SuSE Linux on all the machines and servers and it cost us $5,000.00 and my pager goes off a lot less on nights and weekends so I know support calls have gone down.
” “Linux is less buggy, has lower TOC and more functionality than windows”: Ummm, what? Its obviously more buggy. Have you ever used Windows XP even once? Tried the disgusting RH 9?
TOC is obviously higher for linux- I need to read for two days just to use my cd burner and I end up having to *buy* SW. Almost any complex high functionality thing requires the same extra effort and price. ”
It takes you two days to figure out how to use your CD Burner? Thats funny because K3b and X-CD-Roast it is actually a pretty automated procedure. I have used Windows XP, and while XP has been an improvement for MS, you still have major problems with security and legacy app support, not to mention XP is just as bloated as OS X in the eyecandy department. I agree with you on one thing, Red Hat is disgusting, the Linux distros I always reccomend are SuSE Linux, Xandros or Libranet.
” Any time I need to do something, i can’t just click and use logical menus in an integrated app+OS. I have to research and pray. Linux just doesn’t pass the grandmother test and never will.
Linux obviously has less functionality – most of the apps are very hard to use and just plain broken and there is no way to get help because no one spent the time designing integrated products in the first place. MS is number one because it integrated SW and made computers usuable. As a USER I thank MS profusely. Linux, wastes my time and insults me. Now do you understand? ”
When was the last time you used Linux? 1996 ? Linux has made great strides at creating a GUI for common system functions, this is also another place that SuSE excels, you can use YaST to change your /etc/sysconfig options, change booting runlevels among many other things. One thing I do like that is not part of any distribution is Ximian Red Carpet, I use Red Carpet to install local software because if you have a dependancy issue, Red Carpet will fix it if the package is offered. My mother uses Linux, she is a grandmother and she loves it, I have had to help her very few times and the times I have had too its been trivial things. Now if my mother, who is by far the most technologically retarded person I have ever met < sorry mom > can use Linux and get the basics of Linux down, then I say Linux is making great strides. Sure Linux needs more work, no one has said it is perfect.
This whole MS vs. the world thing never ceases to amaze me.
People treat computers/OS’s like they’re some kind of religion, and, if I’m not part of “your religion” I’m seen as some kind of antichrist.
Here’s the thing…. Linux is good…. in SOME situations. It’s great as a file/printer server, excellent for server WWW/FTP/etc, great for databases, etc.
BUT, it’s a fragmented market, has no UI standards and has a steap learning curve for those who have never used it.
Some people like to call this “choice”… from an administration perspective, it’s a freaking nightmare.
I feel sorry for the IT Admins at this government body that are going to have to support these users once the “conversion” is complete.
Users are just that, users. They don’t care if OpenOffice is free, has better compatability with XML or any of the religious or philisophical reasons as to why it’s better. All they know, is that the documents they made in Word 97, don’t load properly now… they used to, now they don’t.
When someone receives an email with a Word file and it doesn’t open, what are they supposed to do? Ask the person who sent it to send it in a different format? How much time is wasted doing this?
What it someone makes a mail merge database at home in Access and wants to run it at work? “Oh, sorry, that won’t work either”. Do they care why? No.
Again, don’t get me wrong. Linux is a great OS with lots of configurability for those who are technically savvy, but, and it can do some amazing tricks on the server side of things for a fraction of the cost of the Windows equivilant, but, just because WE like it doesn’t mean the world has to conform.
Just my $.02
All they know, is that the documents they made in Word 97, don’t load properly now…
Not necessarily. OpenOffice opens up most Word documents without a hitch. The MS Office import filters are said to have been greatly improved in version 1.1, which just came out – which is proof positive of a great strength of OSS: it adapts quickly if there is a need to fill.
And, remember: Word 97 files might not always open all that well in Office 2000 either…and if you’re trying to open up a Word 2000 file in Word 97, forget it!
When someone receives an email with a Word file and it doesn’t open, what are they supposed to do?
Actually, that’s unlikely to ever happen. The formatting may be wrong (especially if it was complex formatting), but they’ll still be able to open the file – unless someone has installed MS Office, .doc files are associated to Star/OpenOffice by default.
Oh, and if people really can’t do without MS Office, well, they can always run it with Crossover Office (and/or some server-client solution if we’re talking about a large office). This is my case, as I often need to work with heavily-formatted .doc files (can’t wait to test the new OO.o import filters, though). Crossover Office is a great product from a great company, and it now supports MS Access as well (version 2000 only).
If compatibility with MS Office file formats is all that Linux needs to take over the desktop, then world domination is much closer than anticipated! 😉
>Not necessarily. OpenOffice opens up most Word documents >without a hitch. The MS Office import filters are said to >have been greatly improved in version 1.1, which just >came out – which is proof positive of a great strength of >OSS: it adapts quickly if there is a need to fill.
Agreed, OSS will adapter much faster than the capitalist machine, however, the import filters are far from perfect in OO1.1. I have numerous Word 97 documents that do not open correct, and we’re not just talking formatting. Images that don’t display properly, layers that don’t work, etc
>Actually, that’s unlikely to ever happen. The formatting >may be wrong (especially if it was complex formatting), >but they’ll still be able to open the file – unless >someone has installed MS Office, .doc files are >associated to Star/OpenOffice by default.
Sorry, perhaps I should’ve explained it better. I meant open without issue. Users don’t want to have to reformat a document, they want to double click it, have it open and display as expected.
My bad for not explaining better.
>Oh, and if people really can’t do without MS Office, >well, they can always run it with Crossover Office(and/or >some server-client solution if we’re talking about a >large office). This is my case, as I often need to work >with heavily-formatted .doc files (can’t wait to test the >new OO.o import filters, though). Crossover Office is a >great product from a great company, and it now supports >MS Access as well (version 2000 only).
If the whole idea of doing this was to save money on licensing, why would they buy copies of Crossover Office, and then more copies of MS Office on top? If they’re going to do that, why not just scrap OpenOffice and use Crossover and MS Office? Hell, at the cost of OpenOffice, why not just run Windows XP and MS Office?
See the vicious circle?
Again, I’m not saying Linux is a bad thing, choice is good… but there comes a point where choice vs. compatability becomes an issue.
In all honesty, if I was a civilian in Germany, and I found that my government paid more money for OSS than what MS was offering, I’d be pretty pissed
If the whole idea of doing this was to save money on licensing, why would they buy copies of Crossover Office, and then more copies of MS Office on top?
Well, if they were using MS Office documents in the first place, chances are they already have MS Office licenses. So the effective cost for MS Office is zero. Not bad! As far as Crossover Office is concerned, its volume licensing fees are actually very attractive – much lower than Windows XP licences, anyway. Also, Crossover Office can be used to run a lot more MS apps, which can ease transition from Windows to Linux (the key word here being “transition”, as in temporary yet inevitable.)
So in fact it is a money-saver if you consider that a company would still be able to use the Office licenses they already have and not spend a lot on Crossover Office Licenses. Also, the Server edition of Crossover Office lets users start MS Office from a centralized server, which greatly simplifies configuration and such.
In all honesty, if I was a civilian in Germany, and I found that my government paid more money for OSS than what MS was offering, I’d be pretty pissed
Not if additional costs included freedom from vendor lock-in, which would end up costing a LOT more over time. Don’t be hoodwinked by Microsoft’s “bait and switch” schemes! They may have paid more money up front, but they’ll end up saving money AND having a lot more control over their software – not to mention being sure that there’s no backdoor in their software (Promis, anyone?)
Crossover Office can be used to run a lot more MS apps
What I meant to say, of course, is that Crossover Office can be used to run a lot more Windows apps, not necessarily by Microsoft…
Seth: … but not to worry you idiots will learn someday.
I think the idiots are using Windows or Mac
>>>This whole MS vs. the world thing never ceases to amaze me.
People treat computers/OS’s like they’re some kind of religion, and, if I’m not part of “your religion” I’m seen as some kind of antichrist. <<<
Well it is true discussions do get out of hand quiet a bit and get quickly drawn onto a personal level with personal insults – sad really but i guess it is human nature (the internet as such doesn’t help in this regard, one is much more unihibited). However, guess in terms of the so called ‘Linux zealots’ (before I get flamed: I love Linux and use it as my primary desktop, I also use Win 98 through Win4Lin and WinXP, more or less because I have to through work – having said that win xp is not a bad product, at least finally it seems a stable windows solution for the desktop, even though it is bloat) they are just fed up hearing all the FUD that is being spewed around by Microsoft and the like and the fact that Microsoft uses there Monopoly to push others out of business or at least keep them small and insignificant – fortunately with the avent of Linux things seem to change and Microsoft unfair business strategies do not seem to work the same way, as the case in Munich shows.
However it would be nice if discussions would just stay on a more rational level focused on the subject … (sorry for my first post in this thread, I lost my temper a bit with philips posts – more with his racist remarks than anything else, his ‘Linux expertise’ i couldn’t take serious anyway -and got personal)
>>> BUT, it’s a fragmented market, has no UI standards and has a steap learning curve for those who have never used it.
Some people like to call this “choice”… from an administration perspective, it’s a freaking nightmare.
I feel sorry for the IT Admins at this government body that are going to have to support these users once the “conversion” is complete. <<<
Well, you probably don’t know the german education system very well then.
1. If you study a computer degree, or physics or anything like that – and these are the people who normally end up as sysadmins – you are very likely, if not inevitably, coming into touch with Unix and Linux, as most Univesities use Linux on their servers as well as this being part of the curriculum. So they will already have a fair amount of knowledge. This will only increase, the more Linux gets adopted
2. normally, when you just leave university and start working, you ar more or less eased into things and training on the job is provided – so again people will failry quickly adapt and probably enjoy it.
3. An UI is not the be and end all. the console in Linux is very powerfull (not like the crippled one in Windows) and lets you administer serves very effectively and quickly with a view lines of code. anybody working with the console only a little bit will confirm that they would’t consider turning back to a click an point UI as it is in Windows.
>>Users are just that, users. They don’t care if OpenOffice is free, has better compatability with XML or any of the religious or philisophical reasons as to why it’s better. All they know, is that the documents they made in Word 97, don’t load properly now… they used to, now they don’t.
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I think that is a little bit short-sighted. as someone mentioned already openoffice does an excellent job of opening word files – i never had any trouble even with more complicatred layouts, graphics etc. and within the government i doubt that people will need extremely complicated layout anyway …
And yes maybe they (as in users) don’t care about the file-format etc., but in the long run the people responsible for the it within the organization do and therefore, for obvious reasons it is always better to use open standards rather than proprietary ones.
Anyway just my $.02