Mac OS X 10.3, aka Panther, will not be a 64-bit operating system, despite running on a 64-bit processor, the PowerPC 970 aka the G5. Instead, the next major release of the Mac operating system will be a hybrid, much like version 10.2.7, codenamed ‘Smeagol’, which Apple has running on its pre-production Power Mac G5 machines and with which it will almost certainly ship production units, TheRegister reveals. TheRegister also has an article about a possible roadmap of the G5 CPU family. Also, this the second installment of ThinkSecret’s “Inside Panther” series, covering Mac OS X 10.3.
Mac OS X 10.3 Panther Will Not Be a 64-bit OS
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
and I don’t care about graphs that are on the apple website, give me a program that will run on both systems (a raytracer perhaps, or some sort of renderer, like say blender) and set up a single file and render it on both systems, and see the difference, I’m sorry but a dual athlon 2400 with 1 gig of ram will outperform a single G5 1.8 with 1 gig of ram, and the dual athlon was less than half of the price, all things are equal EXCEPT that the G5 has considerably less processing power, and costs twice as much. tell me where the mac is better for 1500? we’ve argued hardware, software, what’s next? the air inside of the mac tastes better? you could enter computer beauty contests and win some of your money back? I’m lost as to why you’re even fighting still
“macs don’t come prewired for 802.11b/g”
They come prewired so that all you need is a card. The same is not always true for many PCs
“no digital audio in on my sound card, but it had digital audio out, analog in and out”
Thats an expensive add on. Get it on there.
“and the case came with front headphone jack and speaker AND MIC AND USB AND FIREWIRE (where’s that?)”
Thats all on the low end G5.
“iLife there is more powerful but not as polished open source/free software programs”
I disagree as would most consumers.
“iPhoto konqueror can handle”
I don’t think you know what iPhoto is. A comperable Application would be Adobe’s Photoshop Album. Their’s is the copycat of Apple’s iPhoto.
http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshopalbum/overview.html
“xine can handle iMovie”
xine is just a xine multimedia player, not a low end video editing and post production video and effects applciation.
“iTunes ms office is crap”
LOL, you must never have used iTunes. It is the best MP3 software player on the market. Althogh a lot of competition exists and so therefore that perspective is in the eyes of the user, I dont know of any individuals that have used both activly to hold that opinion.
“filemaker is trial, doesn’t count. “
How do you figure?
“what the crap is omniGraffle and outliner?”
What kind od statement is that?
http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/
http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnioutliner/download/
“graphic converter? you mean between formats? the gimp can handle that
True.
“xine is much nicer than quicktime IMHO.”
That argument is respectible.
“Gaim is really nice, ever tried it? beats iChat.”
I’ve tried several.
“Mozilla browser and firebird are better than safari”
While I’d agree that both of these are nice, Safari is the better browser. However, Mozilla browser and firebird are still more compatible with the remaining ones that Apple and the KHTML team haven’t fixed.
“and you’re REALLY digging with mail”
Mail is a nice app and is highly competative with other e-mail apps.
“address book”
Anotehr nice application because it integrates with iSync and mail and fax and blutooth phones etc… I haven’t found a similar app that could do that anywhere.
“and dvd player”
You may have a point there. DVD player is common everywhere you go.
“every system can read .pdf”
But not every system can write PDF from any application because it is an operating system level function.
“and if you have to mention a free earthlink program, you must really be desperate.”
I don;t believe I mentioned that.
“OH YEAH front side bus… if you’re going to pay 1500 dollars for a faster front side bus, then you’re pathetic.”
Who said that I was paying $1500 for a faster front side buss?
“tell me, did I miss anything?”
See above.
“and as for considerable price difference, I believe that the 1550 dollar price difference is considerable”
Except for the fact that it wasn;t a $1550 price difference… (see argument above)
“and I don’t care about graphs that are on the apple website”
Sigh…
“give me a program that will run on both systems (a raytracer perhaps, or some sort of renderer”
The staff at Pixar said that in preliminary tests using their crossplatform software (renderman?), Apple significantly outpaced the competition.
“I’m sorry but a dual athlon 2400 with 1 gig of ram will outperform a single G5 1.8 with 1 gig of ram”
I don;t believe anyone’s made such a comparison yet.
“and the dual athlon was less than half of the price”
As noted (above) that figure still hasn’t been confirmed.
“all things are equal EXCEPT that the G5 has considerably less processing power”
Um… Where do you get your figures from?
“and costs twice as much.”
Nothing you’ve said has indicated that.
“tell me where the mac is better for 1500?”
The argument is whether or not the PC is less expensive than the Mac. Macs come in predefined configurations… so it is your job to find a configuration that will match the Mac, not my job to find a Mac that is configurable to a PC.
Again, I NEVER said that a Mac was more configurable.
If you wants to make comparisons, you’re going to competitiveness to match the Mac’s specs and try to make the price difference considerable.
I’ve consistently said that the Mac will either be slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less expensive, or significantly less expensive when you match the PC’s hardware and software to the exact specifications or as close as possible to the Mac.
Anyone that contests that is going to have to abide by that rule.
“my spec-ed mobo has fw400, and let me reiterate mac is “AirPort Extreme ready” meaning that it has a pci slot and you can buy the air extreme card for 99 dollars.”
Mac don’t use up a PCI slot to get wireless functionality.
“which mac has 9 computer controlled fans again?”
G5
my case has 5 and I paid 25 for the cas with a window and led fan, and have 2 on the power supply, and then bought the fans for 10 dollars a piece… 120 mm fans, not 60mm 120mm. that’s 65 dollars for the case.
This is more of what I had in mind…
http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=11-119-010-01.JPG/11-…
We are not taking cheap junk cases. Just because a case conforms to ATX form factor doesn’t make it a good case. A case with a windows doesn’t fly because of EMI/RFI considerations. The computer controlled fan system has to be over $100 in the PC world.
” and by the way, my 1985 iroc Z-28 with a 383 enforcer with a paxton supercharger and about 5 grand into structural reinforcement and suspension and steering is faster and has better handling than the bimmer M, and only cost 7 grand for the engine/supercharger, 5 grand into handling, and 2500 for the car, that adds up to 14500 for the car, and I can pull off my T-tops and beat that bmw-m around any track.”
I am sure the performance is all there but this car is just as ugly and uncomfortable as a Grand National. Besides isn’t GM phasing out this car? More people prefer the Mustang anyway. Look at all the modification you made to the car just to keep it from flying off the track. In stock conditon an M will eat your car alive on the track. I’ll stick take the M or even a 350Z any day. I am not surprised by your car selection by the way.
I agree. I enjoy upgrading my Mac regularly.
What can you upgrade? I’m curious. Perhaps I’ve understimated the upgradability(?) of the Mac.
I disagree. There’s no reason to believe that the number of Mac gamers runs in paralyl to that of Windows users when considering market share proportions.
Um… Sorry, but you’re completely out of your depth here, unless you classify Photoshop as a game.
I know that Doom3 was shown first on the Mac, but it’s not even out… and it was a tech demo for the GeForce 3.
the pc is just as wireless compliant as the mac, it’s called pci, same as on the mac.
konqueror along with the gimp can take out iPhoto, I know what iPhoto is.
evolution is a very nice E-mail app
there are several address books that syncronize with different mail/pda/phone programs in linux
linux can save to pdf also
earthlink was definitely listed in your post
linux has several outline/project/flowcharting programs
and there was one video editing suite that I can’t think of the name right now, I’ll look into that one and let you know.
as for the trial version of filemaker, you still have to pay for the full version, thus adding money to the mac system
thus leaving user preference and the front side bus in question
and the matter of ~1500 dollars
is it worth it? we’ll let the people be the judge
“What can you upgrade? I’m curious. Perhaps I’ve understimated the upgradability(?) of the Mac.”
Although I don’t know how friendly the G5’s will be to processor upgrades, previous models (except for all in one units ofcourse) you could upgrade every aspect of the hardware.
>“There’s no reason to believe that the number of Mac gamers runs in paralyl to that of Windows users when considering market share proportions.
“Um… Sorry, but you’re completely out of your depth here, unless you classify Photoshop as a game.”
Of course I don’t consider Photoshop a game but your argument (suggesting that Mac users only user their computers for graphics) is just as relivant as me saying, “unless you classify MS Word as a game.”
“I know that Doom3 was shown first on the Mac, but it’s not even out… and it was a tech demo for the GeForce 3.
“
That was not where I was basing my perspective.
what the hell is this, ebay talk?
“I’m sorry but a dual athlon 2400 with 1 gig of ram will outperform a single G5 1.8 with 1 gig of ram”
I don;t believe anyone’s made such a comparison yet.
did you happen to read the system comparison that I made? maybe I should paste it in here again:
athlon dual MP 2400 (500)
1 gig of pc2700 ram (120)
160 gig SATA (150)
radeon 9800 128 megs(300)
sound card (<50)
dvd-ram (150)
gigabit NIC (<50)
case (50-100)
athlon system: 1420 (and that’s rounding up in most cases)
mac 1.8 with 1 gig of ram and a 160 and the radeon 9800 and the super drive: 2,970.00
by the way all of the mods done to my car and the price is still less than the M class bmw or the 350Z, and GM is phasing out the car because they have turned it into a mid-life crisis car in the 35000+ range, which niche is filled by the corvette
All you anti-mac people seem to really get off on downing Macs.. what is the point? Get a life, a girlfriend, whatever..
It’s not a matter of superiority, because that can always be debated and never proved. It’s a matter of taste, some people prefer Macs, some prefer PC’s, who cares?
I’ve shown you a computer that costs half the price, has all of the software available, and has considerably more processing power, so it all comes down to user preference, and I’m willing to try (no, I highly wish to try) osx. apparently you’re so dead set in your ways, that nothing will pry your hands off of a mac. Oh well, I can handle that, if I have shown but one person the light today I can die a happy man.
“the pc is just as wireless compliant as the mac, it’s called pci, same as on the mac.”
Most Macs have the wireless entena integrated into the hardware. I think thats the aspect you’re missing here to which I was talking about.
“konqueror along with the gimp can take out iPhoto, I know what iPhoto is.”
Then you must not have ever used iPhoto because its a totally different type of application.
This isn;t a battle of Apple software vs. Open source software, I love and use several Open source apps on a daily basis. I’m simply saying that the applications that you’re mentioning as appas which run in paralyl in functionality to Apple’s bundled apps aren’t the same thing.
“there are several address books that syncronize with different mail/pda/phone programs in linux”
Please tell me of some. I’ve looked and can’t find any.
“linux can save to pdf also”
You have a point there.
“earthlink was definitely listed in your post”
If I did, It was a mistake. I was just copying a list from Apple’s spec page.
“linux has several outline/project/flowcharting programs
and there was one video editing suite that I can’t think of the name right now, I’ll look into that one and let you know.”
Although I can’t think of the name either… I have a feeling I’ve used the app you’re thinking of. While it is a nice app, iMovie feels much more polished.
“thus leaving user preference and the front side bus in question
and the matter of ~1500 dollars”
Have you added the Optical digital audio in, optical digital audio out, analog audio in, analog audio out?
Also forgot to mention, make those PC slots 33MHz, 64-bit PCI slots.
Dont forget to tack on a SuperDrive (DVD-RW/CD-RW)
I forget did we mention anything about I/O yet? One FireWire 800 port, two FireWire 400 ports (one on front); three USB 2.0 ports (one on front), two USB 1.1 ports (on keyboard); AGP 8X Pro slot with graphics card installed, including ADC connector and DVI connector.
Oh ya, and last but not least… don;t forget that 800MHz Frontside bus
“and by the way, my 1985 iroc Z-28 with a 383 enforcer with a paxton supercharger and about 5 grand into structural reinforcement and suspension and steering is faster and has better handling than the bimmer M, and only cost 7 grand for the engine/supercharger, 5 grand into handling, and 2500 for the car, that adds up to 14500 for the car, and I can pull off my T-tops and beat that bmw-m around any track. “
Which BMW M-Series would you be talking about now, the M3, the M5, the M Roadster, the M Coupe? They’re all different, and you make a very valid point. While you’re car may be faster and handle better, its still at 1985 Z-28, an ugly piece of shit that I would _never_ want, I don’t care how “fast” you claim it is. Again, it’s about taste. I’ve dealt with Dells and PC’s all my life, I have decided it is worth whatever extra cost for the user experience.
To refute your other comments about Linux. Yes, Linux is nice and useful and powerful and whatnot. However, it is also difficult (don’t debate this, you know it is), horribly inconsistent, and just not destined for the desktop. I could never use Linux as my main OS, however I own a nice Linux box which does filesharing, sshd, and httpd.
>I don’t believe anyone’s made such a comparison yet.
“did you happen to read the system comparison that I made? maybe I should paste it in here again:”
athlon dual MP 2400 (500)
1 gig of pc2700 ram (120)
160 gig SATA (150)
radeon 9800 128 megs(300)
sound card (<50)
dvd-ram (150)
gigabit NIC (<50)
case (50-100)
I saw the system, i was simply contesting the statement, “I’m sorry but a dual athlon 2400 with 1 gig of ram will outperform a single G5 1.8 with 1 gig of ram”… saying, “I don’t believe anyone’s made such a comparison yet.” Which is true.
“I’ve shown you a computer that costs half the price”
With different hardware and software… sure.
“has all of the software available”
Except for the fact that it doesn’t.
“and has considerably more processing power”
Nobody has made such a comparison which proves that.
“apparently you’re so dead set in your ways, that nothing will pry your hands off of a mac.”
I’m a reasonable person. I would consider any machine that gave me more for my money.
Of course I don’t consider Photoshop a game but your argument (suggesting that Mac users only user their computers for graphics) is just as relivant as me saying, “unless you classify MS Word as a game.”
That’s because I’ve seen this video: http://www.honest3d.com/halo/apple_gamer.wmv
😉
However, yes, I tend to believe that there ain’t many Mac gamers, even proportionally with the market share. If you can prove me wrong, go ahead, but I’m pretty sure of what I’m saying. If Macs were such good all-rounders (great price/performance ratio [I’m not counting the G5 as it isn’t out yet], all the software you need is available, etc), they would be more popular. Don’t get me wrong: they’re nice computers. However, I believe you’re overhyping them a bit, as many PC users are degrading them without any sense. And please… Don’t tell me that it’s because most users are not “enlighted” or BS like that (I don’t think YOU will, but I know that some do).
the video cards are the same, the mobo has 6 USB2 ports and 3 FW400 ports, dvdRW drive is on there, digital out and analog in and out were there, just digital in was not.
by the way, the car, while ugly, is just waiting for the evoluzione styling kit, which I could care less about how it looks until I have the build done perfect, I’m not one of those people who will put a wing and a body kit and a fart cannon on their civic and then say it’s fast. go to k1-styling.sk I haven’t figured out which one will end up on the maro, the evo1 or 2 it will have to be modified because the rear end overlay is heavy of course, but I believe that you will like the styling when I’m through with it. the interior is from the 1998 firehawk (I believe it was 1998, it was a junkyard car, interior perfect.
all it needs is an iBook to interface with the ecu and I’ll be set.
by the way, on a serious note, if any of you know of a place where I can get a sub 500 dollar G4 that I can run OSx on, please let me know. I seriously like mac, but can’t afford to spend that much on one, as I will be shelling out 35000 to go to full sail to play with their macs 😀
“However, yes, I tend to believe that there ain’t many Mac gamers, even proportionally with the market share. If you can prove me wrong, go ahead, but I’m pretty sure of what I’m saying.”
I tend to believe that there are many Mac gamers when speaking in proportion to Apple’s market share. If you can prove me wrong, go ahead, but I’m pretty sure of what I’m saying.
“If Macs were such good all-rounders (great price/performance ratio [I’m not counting the G5 as it isn’t out yet], all the software you need is available, etc), they would be more popular.”
First of all, it wasn;t always like this. For several years Apple had significant advantages in many aspecs and chanrged a higer price accordingly. Then for a short while, Apple sold comparable hardware while maintaining that price premium. Now Apple’s hardware is very price competative when you compare hardware and software.
Regardless, these issues are only a fraction of the reason why Macs aren;t more popular than what they are. I can go on and on…
“Don’t get me wrong: they’re nice computers. However, I believe you’re overhyping them a bit as many PC users are degrading them without any sense.”
Mac users are computer users like anyone else. Why would a Mac user be any less interested in play games that any other computer user. if the Mac had no or even few games you might have a point, but the Mac has several games. many aren’t released in tandom with Windows, but that has no bearing on the fact that Mac users are just as enthusiastic about games as Windows users.
“by the way, on a serious note
Not serious before huh…
“if any of you know of a place where I can get a sub 500 dollar G4 that I can run OSx on, please let me know.”
If you want to buy new… you’re out of luck.
same ram, same hard drive, same video card, the main difference is the mobo/cpu combo, and the mac has a single 1.8 ghz 64 bit cpu on it vs a dual athlon MP 2400 system, and there is equivelant software, however not polished (you get that when you have to worry about compatibility, apple only has apple hardware to deal with)
anyway I’m done arguing about that, I want a mac, I have a mad fast pc, I’m pretty happy, I’m not going to change you you’re not going to change me (unless you offer me a job where I can afford that mac) so it’s over. unless you want to top off 200 posts 😀
Getting price from Pricewatch is stupid, who handles the warranty? All six or ten of the companies you order from? NewEgg?
>>>>>
Everyone. NewEgg will handle RMA within the first 30 days (for DOA hardware), and after that, you’ve got your standard vendor warrenties from everyone else. First thing I do when building a machine is stuff every piece of paper I received with the parts into a big folder. I keep that folder somewhere safe. In the rare case something goes bad, its 5 extra minutes of searching to find the appropriate person to call. If that 5 extra minutes is worth all that money, then buy all means, buy your Mac. Put it right next to your 50″ plasma screen and $20,000 reference speaker system.
Who? Compare name brand to name brand. Apple is a name brand, Jimmy Sockitoomi’s computer store on pricewatch is not.
>>>>>>>
Dell? Dell machines are cheaper than hand-built ones these days.
Nobody factored in the cost of the software either? MacOSX and all the iApps is worth more than $200 at least.
>>>>>>>
Windows is worth (in market price, anyway) $100, what’s your point? Plus, most PC machines (Dell, etc) come bundled with Office, which is worth a hell of a lot more than $200.
If you counter that you don’t care about MacOSX and you will just install Linux it shows how much your time is worth.
>>>>>>>
My time isn’t worth so much that the one hour it takes me to install Linux justified a price difference of hundreds of dollars.
You can peice together a Honda Civic to get 400HP car but its still not a BMW-M series even if it is faster and you know it.
>>>>>>
We’re not talking about whether the Apple is worth all that money. For some people, it may be. But there are people on this board claiming that the Apple machine costs the same, which it most surely does not!
The whole concept of GNU/Linux being comparable to Mac OS X is just laughable. That kind of difference just can’t be included in an even comparison.
BTW… I gave you links to mine, can you give links to your prices?
The chalange was not whether or not Apple could be as configurable as a PC. A PC can be more configurable. His configuration had many things lacking as compared to a G5, G4 etc…
>>>>>>>>
Give me *one* specific detail. He asked what was a comparable machine. You gave me a link to Apple’s G4 page. I couldn’t find a comparable machine. You keep waving your arms and saying there is one, so the onus is on you to show us one!
Macs come in predefined configurations…
>>>>>>>>
Not they don’t. Not any more than a Dell, anyway, if you use their webstore.
I don’t care if it’s used or new, I just want one that works, I’ve been looking for one with like 256 megs of ram, and a hard drive that can at least support itself (I’ve got a 120 gig, an 80 gig, a 60 gig, and a 30 gig that can handle file overload from whatever is on the mac) but I’ve searched E-bay and the few that I’ve bid on have gone up to like 500+ and then shipping on top of that, I wouldn’t mind if I could find one in decent shape for like 400 + shipping, but it just hasn’t happened yet (hence the spur of the moment purchase of the athlon xp 2600) but if you know of a place online to buy one from or an E-bay seller (with decent feedback) let me know
“there are people on this board claiming that the Apple machine costs the same, which it most surely does not!”
When you make comparisons to Mac hardware and software the pricess ARE either slightly more, the same price, slightly less, significantly less.
…to even consider comparing a build your own computer to a Mac. Of course the hobby-pc is going to be cheaper. You’ve got to compare Apple to vendors they compete against: DELL, HP/COMPAQ, GATEWAY, SUN, SGI, etc…
I don’t know too many large corporations that rely upon build your own hobbiest machines for their staff and infrastructure needs. Granted, I don’t work at a fortune 500 company, but I can’t see their IT staffs building computers from scratch. They’re going to go with a large vendor that can offer support.
Mom and pop PCs isn’t going to do that!
Most Macs have the wireless entena integrated into the hardware. I think thats the aspect you’re missing here to which I was talking about.
>>>>>>>
The G4s you linked to don’t. And that’s all you can get right now.
Then you must not have ever used iPhoto because its a totally different type of application.
>>>>>>>>
What does iPhoto do that Gimp doesn’t. Concrete details, please!
Please tell me of some. I’ve looked and can’t find any.
>>>>>
Evolution is probably the most popular, but Kontact is quickly becoming usable, and Athera is also available.
Although I can’t think of the name either… I have a feeling I’ve used the app you’re thinking of. While it is a nice app, iMovie feels much more polished.
>>>>>
This isn’t a matter of polish (which is a seperate debate). Its not a matter of worth. Its a matter of price. Price is concrete, and its a dishonest tactic to try to argue that something is the same price as something else because you have an inflated opinion of the worth of certain pieces of software. Let’s stick to sticker prices, okay?
Have you added the Optical digital audio in, optical digital audio out, analog audio in, analog audio out?
>>>>>>>
Most $50 sound cards (which he included, btw) have everything on that list except optical digital in.
Also forgot to mention, make those PC slots 33MHz, 64-bit PCI slots.
>>>>>>>
That’s a bullshit argument that shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. 64-bit PCI slots are of limited usefulness on desktop machines. Pretty much every x86 motherboard made today has a dedicated bus (independent of PCI) for networking, sound, and IDE. The only way 64-bit PCI is going to become a factor is if you add in a card that needs more than 100MB/sec of bandwidth, which is pretty much limited to high-end SCSI RAID arrays (ATA RAID arrays are handled by the onboard IDE RAID controller that comes with many x86 motherboards). Do a Google search for Hypertransport, V-Link, MuTiol, and “Intel Hub Architecture.”
Dont forget to tack on a SuperDrive (DVD-RW/CD-RW)
>>>>>>>
Can you read? He included a DVD burner!
I forget did we mention anything about I/O yet? One FireWire 800 port, two FireWire 400 ports (one on front); three USB 2.0 ports (one on front), two USB 1.1 ports (on keyboard); AGP 8X Pro slot with graphics card installed, including ADC connector and DVI connector.
>>>>>>>
The PC will have everything except the FW ports, which are of limited usefulness in the PC world.
Oh ya, and last but not least… don;t forget that 800MHz Frontside bus
>>>>>>>
You’re joking, right?
“Give me *one* specific detail.”
Just one? 800MHz Frontside bus
“He asked what was a comparable machine. You gave me a link to Apple’s G4 page. I couldn’t find a comparable machine.”
He and I were talking about several different configurations. The G4 link was in reference to an earlier conversation.. If my wording gave the impression as to the contrary… thats my bad… However, Apple does in fact make comparable machines and a similar cost… as we’ve been ullustrating countless times.
“You keep waving your arms and saying there is one, so the onus is on you to show us one!”
Heh.. Who’s waiving their arms here. I’m responding very eloquently in a calm and professional fashion. If anyone is waving his arms its the guy that has been responding to me thus far. he hasn;t even given a single link to verify his prices. I’ve looked and the prices he mentioned are wrong… unless he’s pricing a used system.
“>>>Macs come in predefined configurations…”
“Not they don’t. Not any more than a Dell, anyway, if you use their webstore.”
They most certinly do. I can’t equip a G5 machine with G4 components or vice versa. Apple gives you very defined starting points from which to add or take away key elements to their hardware.
So, Because Macs come in predefined configurations… it is his job to find a configuration that will match the Mac, not my job to find a Mac that is configurable to a PC.
I NEVER said that a Mac was more configurable.
If you wants to make comparisons, he’s going to make comparisons to match the Mac’s specs and try to make the price difference considerable.
I’ve consistently said that the Mac will either be slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less expensive, or significantly less expensive when you match the PC’s hardware and software to the exact specifications or as close as possible to the Mac.
Anyone that contests that is going to have to abide by that rule.
I got all of my prices off pricewatch.com, if you click the little links at the top, you then go into a subcategory in the bottom, that is where you’ll find the prices
“Most Macs have the wireless entena integrated into the hardware. I think thats the aspect you’re missing here to which I was talking about.
>>>>>>>
The G4s you linked to don’t. And that’s all you can get right now.”
You’re right about the G4s.
“What does iPhoto do that Gimp doesn’t. Concrete details, please!”
iPhoto archives photos according to date, album, film roll, keywords and comments. You can scroll through thousands of photos in seconds order prints, order a book of the photos pumlish to an online photo album all from within one application. Additionally, it will automatically extract the photos from your digital camera. (No configuration required. Just plug in your camera) iPhoto archives photos according to date, album, film roll, keywords and comments. iPhoto will make a slide show of all your images and play it into with music from iTunes. The completed slide show can be exported as a PDF or movie file…
I can go on and on and on,
“Evolution is probably the most popular, but Kontact is quickly becoming usable, and Athera is also available.”
I’ll have to look into those.
“This isn’t a matter of polish (which is a seperate debate). Its not a matter of worth.”
Thats a logistical argument because someobe could say that cutting and splicing physical media is of greater “worth”. I’m talking about tangable benefits that one Application has that the other may not.
“Its a matter of price.”
Both are free.
“its a dishonest tactic to try to argue that something is the same price as something else because you have an inflated opinion of the worth of certain pieces of software. Let’s stick to sticker prices, okay?”
free and free. Therefore, if one doesn’t offer you the same advantages as the other does, you will need to upgrade to the version that does. That has been my argument all along.
“Most $50 sound cards (which he included, btw) have everything on that list except optical digital in.”
If one doesn’t offer you the same advantages as the other does, you will need to upgrade to the version that does. That has been my argument all along.
“That’s a bullshit argument that shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. 64-bit PCI slots are of limited usefulness on desktop machines.”
If one doesn’t offer you the same advantages as the other does, you will need to upgrade to the version that does. That has been my argument all along.
Again, I NEVER said that a Mac was more configurable.
If you wants to make comparisons, you’re going to comparisons to match the Mac’s specs and try to make the price difference considerable.
I’ve consistently said that the Mac will either be slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less expensive, or significantly less expensive when you match the PC’s hardware and software to the exact specifications or as close as possible to the Mac.
Anyone that contests that is going to have to abide by that rule.
“Dont forget to tack on a SuperDrive (DVD-RW/CD-RW)
>>>>>>>
Can you read? He included a DVD burner!”
He did. I missed that.
>>>”I forget did we mention anything about I/O yet? One FireWire 800 port, two FireWire 400 ports (one on front); three USB 2.0 ports (one on front), two USB 1.1 ports (on keyboard); AGP 8X Pro slot with graphics card installed, including ADC connector and DVI connector.”
>>>>>>>
“The PC will have everything except the FW ports, which are of limited usefulness in the PC world.”[/i]
If one doesn’t offer you the same advantages as the other does, you will need to upgrade to the version that does. That has been my argument all along.
(Why is Firewire of limited usefullness in the PC world? That’s a rediculious argument)
“Oh ya, and last but not least… don;t forget that 800MHz Frontside bus”
>>>>>>>
[i]”You’re joking, right?”
Not at all. If one doesn’t offer you the same advantages as the other does, you will need to upgrade to the version that does. That has been my argument all along.
“I got all of my prices off pricewatch.com, if you click the little links at the top, you then go into a subcategory in the bottom, that is where you’ll find the prices”
I did, and couldn’t find the prices you mentioned. Would you mind just providing links for us?
Okay, I went ahead and spec’ed out two machines I think will resolve this debate:
1) A Dell Dimension.
– 2.8 GHz P4
– 800 MHz bus (for you, Anonymous)
– 1GB of DDR 400 SDRAM
– Radeon 9800 Pro graphics card
– 120 GB hard drive
– Sound Blaster Audigy 2
– DVD Drive
– DVD+RW drive (seperate drives).
– Microsoft Office XP
– MusicMatch Jukebox ($20 addition)
– Roxio Videowave ($130 addition)
– 4 year warrenty, 4 year at home service
– Total Price: $2840 ($2900 – $60 rebate)
2) A PowerMac G5
– 1.8 GHz G5
– 1GB of 400MHz DDR SDRAM
– Radeon 9800 Pro
– SuperDrive
– Office XP for Mac
– Standard iApps bundle
– 3 year warrenty
– Total Price: $3817
Now, some points:
– Extrapolating from the SPEC results, the two machines should benchmark similarly for FPU code, while the Dell should be significantly faster for integer code.
– Didn’t include speakers for either, because both offered sound systems suck
Give me Klipsch’s or give me death!
– The Dell system has an expensive software bundle. More than $150 of extra software was added to compete with the iApps.
– Apple charges $100 more for Office XP than Dell does.
– The price on the Dell comes down big time thanks to special deals, which in reality are available almost all the time from their webstore.
– The support on both systems is expensive. Apple charges about $50 more for its extended support than does Dell. Without the support option, the price on the Dell drops $200, and the price on the Apple drops $250.
– The Dell is most definately cheaper than what you’d pay if you built it at home.
– The G5 is one of Apple’s best deals. The G4 machines are much more expensive compared to what you get.
– The Dell is clearly cheaper. The systems engineering is equally good (my roommate has a new Dell P4, and its whisper quiet), and all the components are brand name.
Now, I’ll repeat — the extra money for a Mac (the $1000 price difference in this comparison is large, for cheaper machines, the price difference should be smaller, but the percentage should be similar) may very well be worth it. However, claiming that a Mac costs at most slightly more than a comparably equipped PC is clear fallacy.
” – Extrapolating from the SPEC results, the two machines should benchmark similarly for FPU code, while the Dell should be significantly faster for integer code.”
Its important to understand that SPEC data is NOT an accurate measurement of performance. It never has been. it has never been contested until recently because there has never been a processor that actually completed SPEC benchmarks faster than that which Intel was able to do… because intel’s chips are engineerd in such a way to pump up SPEC benchmarks.
This point was exemplified by veritest’s examples which they compared the G5 to the P4. In SPEC benchmarks the G5 ouperformed the P4 by a respectible margin, but when real world apps were compared, the G5 BLASTED past the P4 in every benchmark.
Therefore, if you want to make an accurate comparison, you’re going to have to upgrade that processor to a XEON.
” – The Dell is most definately cheaper than what you’d pay if you built it at home.”
Remember, nobody is arguing that a PC is more customizable.
“- The G5 is one of Apple’s best deals. The G4 machines are much more expensive compared to what you get.”
You may want to re-price the G4 series as it has come down considerable in price since the G5’s introduction.
” – The Dell is clearly cheaper.”
Not by a long shot. Your comparison was flawed for reasons mentioned above
If one doesn’t offer you the same advantages as the other does, you will need to upgrade to the version that does. That has been my argument all along.
>>>>>>
You’ve got to be making this up. You can’t just point at a feature few people will use and say, “it’s a must-have, so find stuff that does this.” Very few users have 64-bit PCI cards or something that requires an optical-in. Its not an advantage to support these, but a check-box item! In the real world, a buyer will get far more use out of a $50 soundcard that supports 3D audio in hardware (which the on-board sound in the Mac does in software) than they will get out of optical inputs or 64-bit PCI. I could just as well claim that the G5 doesn’t support serial ATA or a dedicated I/O bus like the x86 machines, but I won’t, because they’re insignificant enough to be irrelevant.
(Why is Firewire of limited usefullness in the PC world? That’s a rediculious argument)
>>>>
Firewire is of limited usefulness in the PC world because very few PC devices use Firewire. x86-land is very USB-centric.
Also, you forgot a match to iDVD. (The closest competator I’ve found in comparisons (the name excaps me for the moment) costs approximately $100
processors http://www.memorymedia.com/D/FMPro?-DB=selling_units.fp5&-lay=web_l…
ram
http://www.bzboyz.com/store/product2443.html
video card
http://www.fticomputer.com/cgis/detail.cgi?product=VB-PC-ATI-XR98-C…
sound card
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=29-117-107&re…
hard drive
http://www.knowledgemicro.com/detail.php?p=HD-ST160BS&c=pw
dvd combo drive
http://www.compuhq.com/piondvra0dvd.html
I’m sure I’m forgetting some stuff, I can provide links if you need them though, the motherboard is gone, it was a refurb at newegg, and all they have is single cpu ones left, those are 65 dollars, (gigabyte I think was who made the one I was looking at before)
“You can’t just point at a feature few people will use and say, “it’s a must-have, so find stuff that does this.””
most would argue that the high end systems you are dream designing are way beyond the needs of most consumers. Indeed these are systems for niche markets… markets which WILL benefit from hardware mentioned. You can’t ignore that fact.
Again, the PC IS more customizable. You are absolutely right. That is definately a PC advantage. But if you are going to compete on price, you must match the hardware as close as possible. otherwise, its totally irrelivant.
The PC’s customizability is a unique benefit… something that man MANY consumers consider to be the well worth making a PC purchase.
The Mac will either be slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less expensive, or significantly less expensive when you match the PC’s hardware and software to the exact specifications or as close as possible to the Mac.
Let the argument go.
“I’m sure I’m forgetting some stuff, I can provide links if you need them though, the motherboard is gone, it was a refurb at newegg, and all they have is single cpu ones left, those are 65 dollars, (gigabyte I think was who made the one I was looking at before)”
Maybe I’m missing something but the prices you mentioned in your previous links dont match up to those you have listed here…
mkisofs + dvdrecord if you don’t like it make a front end for it 😀
SPEC is a damn good gauge of performance. SPEC results told us for a long time that the G4 wasn’t a particularly fast chip, which was eventually borne out by other benchmarks. Besides, do you even know what kind of benchmarks are in SPEC? They’re not synthetic — SPEC tests regular stuff like running gcc, compressing files, etc. If some benchmarks show the G5 to be drastically faster than the P4, I’d take them with a grain of salt, because an analysis of the chip architecture (as well as comparisons between the P4 and the G5’s bigger brother, the Power4) don’t support those kinds of results. If anything, both CPUs will be largely bus-bandwidth limited in FPU-heavy code. Even the SSE2 unit, which is admittedly much slower than the G5’s Altivec unit, is fast enough to saturate a 6.4GB/sec bus. Since both machines have similarly fast busses, *sustained* FPU performance should be similar. Again, the G4 fiasco bears this out. The G4’s AltiVec units were clearly much faster than the SSE units on a P4, but the G4 still stumbled in benchmarks because of its slow bus.
Second, you don’t take into account the performance of integer code. Most of the code executed by your average user is integer code. Yet, the G5 doesn’t handle that as well as it handles FP code. So in the long run, the P4 is damn competitive with the G5, and in the normal user’s desktop, will be noticibly faster. As for the Xeon comment, you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about, do you? For desktop loads, the Xeon processors aren’t noticibly faster than the regular P4s, despite costing more.
“mkisofs + dvdrecord if you don’t like it make a front end for it :-D”
😛
which prices don’t match up?
Although I really wanted to talk about the 64 bitness of Panther, nobody else here does… so for a quick reality check, I just went to AlienWare and Apple to do a price check… I chose Alienware because they make a quality PC and represent a quality based (not pure cost) purchase. Here’s what I found…
Alienware MJ-12
duel 3.06 ghz 533 fsb w/512 cache
1gb pc-2100 ddr sdram
120gb seagate barracuda 7200 ata
plextor px 504a 4x dvd+r/w
nvidia quadro fx 1000 128mb 8x agp
creative labs soundblaser audigy 1394
integrated intel gige adapter
windows xp
$4641.00
Apple PowerMac Duel G5
duel 2 ghz 1ghz fsb w/512 cache
1 gig pc-3200 ram
160gb serial ata 7200rpm
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb
SuperDrive DVD-R/CD-RW
Integrated sound
integrated gige adapter
OSX
$3520
Given the above specs… Apple is really looking good (to me at least).
most would argue that the high end systems you are dream designing are way beyond the needs of most consumers. Indeed these are systems for niche markets… markets which WILL benefit from hardware mentioned. You can’t ignore that fact.
>>>>>>>
Look. Every machine is going to have a slightly different architecture. You can’t have exactly identical machines. If you really need digital input, just buy yourself the digital I/O header for the Audigy. It won’t cost you more than $50. But its foolish to nitpick about details like that when you’re staring at a $1000 price differential. There are lots of bits that the PC has that the Mac doesn’t have, like a dedicated I/O bus and serial ATA controllers. But you could always add those to the Mac for chump change compared to the price of the machine. Still starting at that $100 price differential.
Again, the PC IS more customizable. You are absolutely right.
>>>>>>
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said that. Macs are very customizable — they can use a lot of the same devices PCs can.
actually the G5 uses sata
A) Alienware is a rip-off. Dell charges $3500 for a comparable machine (sans Quadro for reasons explained next).
B) The Quadro is a $1000 graphics card! The Radeon 9800 Pro, well, isn’t!
C) Once you add-in Office XP for the Mac, the Dell still has a few hundred dollars price advantage.
I just purchased an athlon 2600 with 512 megs of ram and an 80 gig hard drive for 500 dollars brand new.
No offense, but your new PC is probably a piece of crap.
I always have friends and friends of friends bringing me their pc’s to fix. The worst ones are always the really low priced ones. Most often bad mobo’s, power supplies, memory, and occasionally HD’s.
Your PC has Porche specs and Yugo parts. Your whole case cost less than a good quality power supply.
“SPEC is a damn good gauge of performance. SPEC results told us for a long time that the G4 wasn’t a particularly fast chip, which was eventually borne out by other benchmarks.”
Ahhh… here’s the kicker. Yes, SPEC DID tell us that, but you’re neglecting the fact that Intel’s chips and their compiler have been shown to pump SPEC numbers higher than what processors like of similar capabilities to a P4 reported.
Before you misunderstand, yes, the P4 did eventually pass up the G4 in speed AND spec, but for a long time, it was only SPEC.
“SPEC tests regular stuff like running gcc, compressing files, etc.”
Intel’s entire line of chips… (it wasn’t JUST the compilers) were engineerd in such a way to increase SPEC numbers.
“If some benchmarks show the G5 to be drastically faster than the P4, I’d take them with a grain of salt, because an analysis of the chip architecture (as well as comparisons between the P4 and the G5’s bigger brother, the Power4) don’t support those kinds of results.”
You’ve got to be kidding me. The only analysiss you’re talking about is how the Power4 compared with SPEC benchmarks… the very benchmark that I’m contesting.
The G5 beat P4 in SPEC by a large margin. When real world apps were compared, the performance lead was GIGANTIC… sometimes by as much as 700%!
This proved that SPEC is NOT an accurate gauge to determine sompeting processor’s speed. I can’t believe you’re even trying to argue this. You are WAY out in left field with this one.
“Since both machines have similarly fast busses, *sustained* FPU performance should be similar.”
The G5 does have a faster BUS… but they are somewhat close.
“Again, the G4 fiasco bears this out. The G4’s AltiVec units were clearly much faster than the SSE units on a P4, but the G4 still stumbled in benchmarks because of its slow bus.”
That and the G4 itself was showing its age.
“Second, you don’t take into account the performance of integer code. Most of the code executed by your average user is integer code. Yet, the G5 doesn’t handle that as well as it handles FP code.”
And yet it handles intiger code well.
“So in the long run, the P4 is damn competitive with the G5
not by a long shot. You would have a point if you were talking about the XEON… which is damn competitive with the G5 but the P4 is way behind.
“and in the normal user’s desktop, will be noticibly faster.
Than a G5?!
Are you kidding me?
“As for the Xeon comment, you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about, do you? For desktop loads, the Xeon processors aren’t noticibly faster than the regular P4s, despite costing more.
Sigh….
[shake head]
About to leave…
We’ll have to finsih this another time. (In my mind its already finsihed, for somereason you’re not accepting the premmises I’m giving you.
Oh well, we’ll have to pick it up next time.
trust me I know what I’m doing I’ve been building pcs for about 10 years now and have been working on cars for about 5
if you believe the american speed 383 mated to a paxton is crap, then you know nothing about what you’re talking about, I could be using a ford 5.0 and replacing head gaskets every weekend, even with under 10 pounds of boost. but this is about computers.
the mobo is msi and the hard drive is western digital, and the video card is a GeForce, I just need something that I can use blender/maya on through school. then I’ll buy a dual G5 when I can finally afford it
anyone who wants to unload a sub 500 dollar G4 ~400 with 128-256 megs of ram, let me know 😀 I’m on hotmail and aim, smart ones can mail/im me spammers won’t catch this one
Just went to dell… picked the same specs as with AlienWare but with the lower end nvidia quadro fx 500 card and the cost was: $3905. Still more expensive then the apple, with lower specs then the apple.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W…
hey mac users who know… how well would a G3 400 with 256 megs of ram stand up with osx? it’s got a 12 gig hard drive and a rage pci video card. and how much would you say it’s worth? this info is needed within the next few minutes
trust me I know what I’m doing I’ve been building pcs for about 10 years now
In your case, that OK. If something goes wrong you can fix it relatively cheaply. That’s not the case for your average consumer. I know a guy who got charged over $700 for bad ram by a local PC shop. (It took them 10 hours at $75 per hour).
the mobo is msi and the hard drive is western digital, and the video card is a GeForce
MSI makes some great mobo’s, and some really cheap one’s too. Yours is probably one of the latter. I just replaced a GeForce card that developed vertical red lines in less than two years. You can buy low quality GeForce cards.
Your system may work fine for years, but the chances of it going bad are higher than if you’d spent more on the components.
BTW, I Apologize for calling your PC a “piece of crap”. However, I still think that the average consumer will not be well served by a machine in this price range. To use a car analogy, the repair bills on a cheaper car can easily exceed the cost of making payments on a newer car.
It’s worth less than 200. it’ll run OK, but fairly slow. Similar to Win2K on a K62 450.
heh, I’ve ran pro2k on a k6-2 500 with 768 megs of ram, the ram ALMOST made up for the crappy mobo/cpu 😀 now it’s sitting downstairs for my cousins to play games on (you know, best of windows entertainment package and various 2d kids games :-D)
you mean it took them 10 hours to figure out that it was the ram or they just raped him on the price? I’d hope they didn’t take 10 shop hours to figure that out.
you mean it took them 10 hours to figure out that it was the ram or they just raped him on the price? I’d hope they didn’t take 10 shop hours to figure that out.
Actually, it was a business. the tech was onsite for almost two days. It may seem ludicrous, but that sort of thing happens. I doubt that the tech was incompetent, but I don’t know that for a fact.
My point is the bill was $40 for parts and over $700 for labor. If you don’t know how to fix it yourself, you have to pay someone who does.
His repair cost wasn’t too far from buying a brand new PC.
Two things!
Every time there is a topic about Apple, and boum!!! almost in every case there is more than 100 messages, and evey time its the same topics, performances, prices, …… . Interesting!!!
When Intel or amd give some benchmark results of their processors, nobody say that those results can not be correct, or that it can not be correct because Intel has done it, or something like that.
But when apple does some benchmark who is not sponsorised as some people said here, but are independently tested by Veritest which exist before apple has done the powermacG5, and has done a lot fot benchmarks for different pcs makers as Dell, hp, ibm, gateway, nec, microsoft, and intel……, well everyone is saying that those tests are not right, because of what…….its apple.
Veritest does hundreds of test for intel, and nobody says that its not correct, but for apple its different!!!! High hypocrisy, isn’t it?
But anyway i don’t think that a dual-athlon can beat a single 1.8 ghz G5, just in the dreams of some person here……….
And about the price, check precisely the configuration (comparing to the dual-athlon system evoked in this forum), the software that you have with each configuration, the technologies (network, wireless, IO), and you will see that you get a machine for your money when tou buy a mac, no to mention the fantastic MacOsX and his Unix world.
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2086.html
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html
A new OSX API has also been proposed that will provide a superset of the existing Gestalt, sysctl, and _cpu_capabilities functionality. This API will be named OSSystemInfo and is scheduled to appear in Smeagol and Panther.
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2090.html
To allow existing device drivers to work with upcoming 64-bit system architectures, a number of changes were required. To explain these, a brief introduction to PCI bus bridges is needed…
The other solution, the one chosen in Apple’s 64-bit implementation, is to use address translation to “map” blocks of memory into the 32-bit address space of the PCI devices. While the PCI device can still only see a 4 gig aperture, that aperture can then be non-contiguous, and thus bounce buffers and other restrictions are unnecessary. This address translation is done using a part of the memory controller known as DART, which stands for Device Address Resolution Table.
(10.2)
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/architecture/index.html
“In your case, that OK. If something goes wrong you can fix it relatively cheaply. That’s not the case for your average consumer. I know a guy who got charged over $700 for bad ram by a local PC shop. (It took them 10 hours at $75 per hour).”
I pity you Yanks! Here in Australia most PC shops will build your machine for the cost of parts alone. My local shop will install any components or software bought there for free while you wait – just bring in your box. They also deliver after hours for free to the local area.
Labour costs are only equivalent of US$30-40 an hour anyway.
“Everyone. NewEgg will handle RMA within the first 30 days (for DOA hardware), and after that, you’ve got your standard vendor warrenties from everyone else. First thing I do when building a machine is stuff every piece of paper I received with the parts into a big folder. I keep that folder somewhere safe. In the rare case something goes bad, its 5 extra minutes of searching to find the appropriate person to call. If that 5 extra minutes is worth all that money, then buy all means, buy your Mac. Put it right next to your 50″ plasma screen and $20,000 reference speaker system.”
That may be fine for people like you and me who can build our own PCs from good parts and good vendors but it is no realistic for the average computer user or someone who is accustomed to a Mac.
“Dell? Dell machines are cheaper than hand-built ones these days.”
Agreed, Dells are good machines and inexpensive but they are not Pricewatch systems.
“Windows is worth (in market price, anyway) $100, what’s your point? Plus, most PC machines (Dell, etc) come bundled with Office, which is worth a hell of a lot more than $200.”
It may cost just as much as the hardware.
“If you counter that you don’t care about MacOSX and you will just install Linux it shows how much your time is worth.”
I’ve installed Linux on my PC before. Mandrake and RedHat and was unimpressed in both instances. I have found XP to be faster and more responsive. Still, I cannot say that I gave Linux enough of a try, it seemed more troublle than what it was worth considering that I already had XP and it is working fine.
“We’re not talking about whether the Apple is worth all that money. For some people, it may be. But there are people on this board claiming that the Apple machine costs the same, which it most surely does not!”
Agreed. Macs do cost more but for me it is worth it. I’ve used MacOSX since the beta and it keeps getting better and slightly faster with every release. Its an OS that generates a lot of attention and excitment even among PC users as evidence in the number of responses on Mac news at OSNews. Then you have the Apple hardware that gets everyone’s attention regardless if its fast or not. The whole hardware line just looks cool. There are the other neat devices like the iPod and iSight. The cool and simple iApps software and the soon to be released iTunes for Windows which will probably be Apple’s biggest software download ever.
for crying out loud… get a freaking life. If you don’t want/like/own a Mac then why do you care?
It’s amazing, I could care less if you like Windows/Ford/GoodYear/Sony. I don’t care what kind of hair cut you have. I don’t care what kind of music you like. You ARE ALL PATHETIC LOSERS! Who the F**K cares. GET a F*****G LIFE!
A better comparison.
Everyone knows dell gets better discounts from intel and microsoft so we take out Office from the equation.
Dimension XPS $2,878
Dell Dimension XPS Series:
Pentium® 4 Processor at 3GHz with 800MHz front side bus
Memory: 512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 400MHz (2x256M)
Video Cards:New 128MB DDR ATI RADEON™ 9800 Pro Graphics Card
Hard Drives: 120GB Serial ATA Hard Drive,7200RPM
Operating System:Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional w/ Microsoft® Plus!
Network Interface: New Dell Gigabit Ethernet
Modem: 56K PCI Telephony Modem
CD or DVD Drive: New 4x DVD+RW/+R Drive w/CD-RW including Sound Card: Sound Blaster Audigy 2™ sound card
Speakers: No Speaker Option
Software Bundles: No Productivity Software Security Software: Dell SecurityCenter by McAfee, 90-day introductory offer
Digital Music: Dell Jukebox PLUS powered by MUSICMATCH
Digital Photography: Dell Picture Studio, Combo – Image Expert Premium and Paint Shop Pro
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options: 1 Year Limited Warranty plus 1 Year At-Home Service
Multi-Media Players: RealOne™ Player PLUS, w/Universal Media Playback REALPLS [412-0381]
Multi-Media Software: Microsoft® Plus! Digital Media Edition
Video Editing: Dell Movie Studio Plus with Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator™
Apple PowerMAc G5
• 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
• 512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) – 2×256
• 160GB Serial ATA – 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
• 56k V.92 internal modem
• SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse – U.S. English
• Mac OS X – U.S. English
Subtotal $2,749.00
Would you say this was a better comparison?
I’m surprised no one’s pointed out the possible roadmap for the G5 in the second link in the article.
3 GHz this time next year
25 GHz by 2011.
This is you proposed system.
athlon dual MP 2400 (500)
1 gig of pc2700 ram (120)
160 gig SATA (150)
radeon 9800 128 megs(300)
sound card (<50)
dvd-ram (150)
gigabit NIC (<50)
case (50-100)
athlon system: 1420
The only decent mobo for the Athlon MP system on price watch is a tyan, the gigabyte doesn’t exist on the gigabyte website. The MSI is similar.
Thunder K7X S2468GN, AMD-760 MPX CS, DDR, Graphics, LAN, Retail Box, 3 year manufacturers warranty with athlon mp 2400 heatsink and fan $519 + 1 more cpu +$80 = $600 (PW).
http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderk7x.html
Decent memory from crucial for above board PC2100 DDR 2×512 $200.00
Your price for the agp 9800 pro = $300 .
Serial ATA drive 120 GB $170 + controller $40 (pw) 1 pci card = $210
Panasonic DVD-R/Cdrw combo drive = $150 (pw)
Gigabit ethermet = $40 1 pci card
firewire+ usb2.0 =$20 two pci cards
Sound blaster audigy = $65 1 pci card
Power supply 460W Ennermax = $89.00 (pw)
Case decent one = $85
Fans+cables+keyboard+mouse $60
Total price = $1819
• 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
• 1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) – 2×512
• 160GB Serial ATA – 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
• 56k V.92 internal modem
• SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse – U.S. English
• Mac OS X – U.S. English
Subtotal $2,999.00
Lets take $800 off for software leaves us with $2100 for the hardware.
You claim that the dual amd box will be faster than the 1.8GHz. Lets examine the athlon box. All the athlon MP boards are similar in config so lets take the tyan based on the amd 760 MPX chipset.
System bandwidth of Athlon MP
The AGP slot on the tyan/MSI is only 4x so the effective bandwidth is 1 GB/sec the 9800 pro is an 8x card I am not sure the slots are compatible. Lets assume they are and it operates at 4x.
AGP 1GB/sec
The FSB is at 200/266MHz so the bandwidth is 3.2/4.2 GB/sec
Memory is also at 4.2gb/sec
The system has no onboard sound and all the PCI card mentioned above that take all but 1 of the 5 PCI slots on the board. The slots are only 33/66mhz 32/64 bit pci slots.
max bandwidth in the the pci buses is 523MB/sec pci is efficient at best to 60% off the peak.
System bandwidth of the G5
AGP 8x 2.1GB/sec
FSB 900 MHz 7.2 GB/sec
memory 400 DDR 6.4GB/sec
PCIX 133 mhz alots ar 2GB/sec
You can clearly see that the bandwidth on the G5 is quiet a lot more than the athlon box
Also the athlon box has no room for expansion coz to reach the specs of the G5 it used 4 pci slots of the 5 on the board.
Price difference between two systems $280
Advantage of G5
80 GB more storage
Firewire 800
Max memory config 4GB greater
So yes you can build a cheaper PC. But not necessarily better system. System performance just doesn’t mean a fast cpu. The athlon system will wait longer than the G5 for any memory access so the .13 MHx increase in clock won’t make much of a difference.
Let’s get real here. Top level hardware is vastly more expensive than slighty slower hardware.
e.g a P4 3.2 GHZ costs 10x as much as an Athlon 2400+ ($750 vs $75) for perhaps 10-20% better real world performance. A 9800 Pro costs 10x as much as a GF4 MX. Just by substituting these two parts you have dropped a $1000 of the price of a PC.
The reality is a $500 PC is only about 10-20% slower than a $4000 PC in most real situations. That $500 PC is actually overkill for most users. A celeron 300 with 256MB RAM is plenty fast enough to run XP for web browsing and general office tasks – you are talking about a machine worth no more than about $50.
The differences only become noticeable when high CPU utilisation is necessary such as high-end gaming or video editing.
My 1GHz Athlon is currently running at 2-10% CPU utilisation and 156MB of RAM on XP PRo.
I miscalculated the bandwidth of ddr
266mhz ddr is 2.1 GB/sec
400 DDR is 3.2GB/sec
Half of what I calimed above. I based my calculation on a 128 bit bus DDR bus is 64 bit.
The mac uses ddr 400-dual so my calculation for the G5 of 6.4GB/sec was correct. That only makes the athlon system loom worse on memory bandwidth
“I miscalculated the bandwidth of ddr
266mhz ddr is 2.1 GB/sec
400 DDR is 3.2GB/sec
Half of what I calimed above. I based my calculation on a 128 bit bus DDR bus is 64 bit.”
The only problem is that DDR400 RAM only imroves the overall speed of a sytem by <5% compared with DDR266 not 50% as the figures suggest.
The real speed determinant is the hard disk setup. That is where the G5 is handicapped – no SATA RAID as standard and ofering cheap 7200 RPM HDs rather than 10,000 RPM SATA or, preferably, SCSI-160 arrays. Hardrives are so cheap now it is criminal not to fit at least SATA RAID to any system costing over $1000
I still want a mac. They just look cooler
I don’t know about hardware to hardware comparisons, {though I’m guessing when it comes down to it PC’s would win) but the reason I want a Mac is hard to quantify. OSX just looks like it would be so much nicer to use than either XP or Linux.
Personally, I think that’s what apple has going for them–the OS looks cool and works and the computers themselves are stylish and functional. Those two advantages have been (and probably will continue to be) above all, the motivating factors that cause people to shell out a couple hundred (or thousand
bucks more than they were planning to spend on a new computer.
Probably jumpy sometimes, but with the latest incarnation of the OS it should be acceptable.
I recommend an upgrade, the video card, to a AGP 2x 32 mb radeon of nvidia card, it’ll make display navigation smoother seem more responsive.
Consider that my mom’s iMac 333 Mhz (256MB) runs just fine at 800×600 and millions of colors, this lower screen resolution makes things smoother on the User side. Her iMac is very snappy.
The P3 800 Dell at work feels sluggish in comparison, but it could be that the Dell only has 3xx MB RAM, it does run W2K that hasn’t been cleaned out and re-installed for about 2 years.
I have only upgraded OS X in that same time and continues to feel snappy.
“The only problem is that DDR400 RAM only imroves the overall speed of a sytem by <5% compared with DDR266 not 50% as the figures suggest.”
Really how do you say that. Do you have any benchmarks?
Can you explain with any reasonable calculation or fact that validates that claim.
The average bandwidth of DDR 266 is 1.2 GB/sec (peak 2.1 GB/sec). DDR 400-dual is probably 3.5 Gb/sec sustained rate(peak 6.4 GB/sec).
“The real speed determinant is the hard disk setup. That is where the G5 is handicapped – no SATA RAID as standard and ofering cheap 7200 RPM HDs rather than 10,000 RPM SATA or, preferably, SCSI-160 arrays. Hardrives are so cheap now it is criminal not to fit at least SATA RAID to any system costing over $1000”
You are joking right? a few millisecond seek time decrease is going to impact system performance the most. The SATA interface’s max/peak bandwidth is 150 MB/sec and the sustained probably 50-60 MB/sec at best. The SATA contoller probably sits at best on a 66/64 bit MHZ pci slot with a max transfer rate of 523 MB/sec sustained of maybe 50-60% of that so 350MB/sec.
How is a few millisecond difference in disk seek time going to matter more than a 2GB/sec bandwidth difference in main memory.
The cpu doesn’t fetch instructions from the hardisk you know. What about peripherals DMAing into memory? The extra 2 gig of bandwidth won’t help right.
One thing I can’t find out about the new OSX10.3 is: Can it run 64bit applications? The photoshop they mention in the article does use a hack, similary to the hack that Intel Xeon use to address 64GB ram, but IS it posible to run a pure 64bit app with true 64 bit pointers?
Martin Tilsted
Since we are all going out to purchase a new G5 we should price some RAM. A 2GB stick of kingston DDR333 will set you back around $1600 or $6400 for 8GB worth (sorry no DDR400 available yet). Add to your dual G5 and the price is a mere $9400. Slots right into the average budget.
I imagine that most OSX users will be using 32bit chips for at least the next 4-5 years. Only at this point will enough of a consumer base exist for apple and it’s vendors to ship 64bit software. What will most likely happen (to ease the transitional phase) will be the shipping of software containing a 32bit compiled CD and a 64bit CD.
For the time being and what this article is saying, performance advantages will not be very profound in most areas as far as the 64bit datawidth is concearned and the REAL increases coming from the higher clock speed and a faster FSB.
Desktop users (with the possible exception of EXTREMELY multimedia savvy ones) will probably not feel restricted by the 4GB RAM limit. Server machines will be a different story and this is most unfortunate. My guess is that apple will probably release Xserve with a TRULY 64bit OS in not too long.
> Desktop users (with the possible exception of EXTREMELY
> multimedia savvy ones) will probably not feel restricted by
> the 4GB RAM limit.
Sorry, 8GB is it. Well, ULTRA-EXTREMELY savvy then
G5 has a single mixed 32/26 bits instruction set. The only difference between 32 and 64 bits software for G5 is that 64 bits software is 32 bits software that uses 64 bit istructions also (like G4 code that uses altivec). The optimization in the new processor are due to a different instruction scheduling.
Unfortunately due to excessive kool aide consumption, osnews.com’s fridge is now empty.
No more kool aide for anyone. 🙁
LOL,
I love it!!! The Mac-ies were juts bragging up all the benefits of having 64-bits on the desktop, and now they find out their OS isn’t going to be fully 32-bit…now all of a sudden they’re saying, “Ohhh, well who needs a 64-bit OS anyway”
The Steve Jobs reality distortion field strikes again.
Note: I love all OSes, I just wanted to point out the irony of all of this.
//Your whole case cost less than a good quality power supply. //
Huh? You think you need to spend 500 bucks for a good quality power supply?
What planet are you from?
I hope Apple ships 3GHZ desktops in less than 12 months. IBM also mentioned at WWDC that they are already working on the next generation processor after the 970.
Panther looks to be shaping to be a nice upgrade.
I guess PC users get some relief knowing that Apple will not be shipping a fully 64-bit OS. What relief this may be I don’t know. As with Altivec Apple seems to be coding parts of the OS that can benefit the most from a 64-bit architecture. Regardless I am glad they didn’t go with Intel and Opteron. The world would be boring place.
As always its hilarious how these Mac threads are dominated by comments on how impoverished people are. How they can’t afford this and that. Ever heard of working, saving money and budgeting? Its almost akin to someone bitching how much a Mercedes cost, its quite pathetic.
> By bytes256 (IP: —.biz.rr.com) – Posted on 2003-07-08 >13:18:49
>LOL,
>The Steve Jobs reality distortion field strikes again.
Indeed. They won’t admit that Steve lie at the recent media show. If Steve says that the sky is green, watch out for all the kool aide drinkers posting that is so, demanding of others to prove otherwise and to argue “ad infinitum” about it.
Their point seem to be that they cannot be convinced otherwise, which is the point of someone who is fanatical, akin member of a cult, in this case the Apple-Jobs cult.
I think Macs are fine, I however think that Mac zealots are insane, and that of course is not every Mac user. In all fairness I know many Mac user with a sober mind.
I warned this zealots that pushing a high end hardware with a limited[emulated] OS is Apple MO for migrations. Apple seem to demand certain ignorance or naiveness on their user base, and these folks give Steve what he demands, they behave like harlots, really.
So use Apple and MacOSX, but don’t lap up everything Steve dishes out like a cheap hooker. Oh well, perhaps they enjoy being taken.
On my part, I wouldn’t mind a G5, at some point in the future, as long as I can run a solid OS on it, Linux or AIX. The eye candy OS is for other market, not me, which is fine too.
Why do people keep running this argument into the ground. Yes, it costs more to purchase a comparable Apple to a home-built Athlon system. Mac diehards can’t or shouldn’t argue this. Its a fact. Yes I know PC workstations are similarly priced, but the consumer PC’s cost far less and perform pretty close to workstations.
I built my wife an Athlon based system a couple of years ago for around $1100 total. No Mac at the time could touch it in performance.
But guess what? The next computer will be a G5 PowerMac. Why? Its a better system overall. Hardware, software, usability. I run Linux on my desktop at work. I run Linux on my desktop at home. My wife runs Windows 2000 on her desktop at home. We have an iBook G3 700mhz. My wife would rather use my iBook. She just likes the OS better.
So yes, it will cost more to purchase the Mac. But I feel in the long run it will be worth it. We will get our money’s worth out of it.
I don’t recall Jobs lying about anything, but I’m watching it again. Please post HH:MM:SS of these lies.
Thanks
-K
You can play this game forever, but just a few notes, in making fair price comparisons:
– Don’t factor in RAM from Apple (rather overpriced), factor in RAM cost from a third party. Smart folk don’t buy RAM from Apple.
– Comparing supercheap PCs built out of lowest-cost components to Apple’s superdesigned (even occasionally overdesigned!) computers is just odd. There’s just a world of difference in quality of design, both internal and external — this is noticable at a glance. Why would anyone who going build his own PC even consider a Mac? I don’t get it. Again, if you want a low-cost PC, and don’t mind a standard, cheapish-looking box plus labor, go for it. But if you’re seriously considering Apple, comparisons to major retailers like Dell make much more sense.
Also, there’s no “Office XP” for the Mac. It’s called Office v.X.
Pricewise, IMHO, Macs are generally going to be slightly (or not-so-slightly, depending) more expensive, esp. toward the very low-end, where Apple chooses not to compete.
If you’re willing pay extra for the extremely polished Mac OS X, the iApps, and a far superior plug-and-play experience, and ease of use, it’s worth it by far. If you’re not, it’s not.
> The WWDC Keynote is still online…
> By Kai Cherry (IP: —.balt.east.verizon.net) – Posted on 2003-07-08 15:15:40
>I don’t recall Jobs lying about anything, but I’m watching it >again. Please post HH:MM:SS of these lies.
>Thanks
>-K
You tell me! Where did the Mac zealots got the notion that Panther was 64bit? I wrote on this forum on 6-27 that it was 32bit and was told that I was wrong. Now it didn’t happen? Heh. So I have to prove for you that the sky is not green? Heh.
Obviously Apple[whose CEO is Jobs] was pushing such notion.
Not only that but here is waht Steve said to his lemmings:
“The 64bit revolution has begun and the personal computer will never be the same again,” said Apple chief executive Steve Jobs, speaking at the firm’s worldwide developer conference in San Francisco.
“With Jaguar, we moved ahead of the competition. With Panther, we’re widening the gap,” said Steve Jobs, chief executive at Apple.
[from http://www.vnunet.com/News/1141799
and http://www.vnunet.com/News/1141883 ]
But it is the same, or at least still 32bit MacOSX, eh? What gap 32bit, 64bit?
Perhaps a lot of the confusion of Mac zealots can be explain with articles like this [taken from http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/06/10/eweek/ ] in which Panther is presented as the 64bit OS and Smeagol as the intermediate, only it seems that now Panther is the hybrid as well and not a 64bit OS:
________________
eWeek: 64-bit Macs may precede 64-bit OS
By Peter Cohen [email protected]
June 10, 2003 11:25 am ET
Speculation in eWeek suggests that new Macs based on IBM’s 64-bit PowerPC 970 processor may make an appearance before a true 64-bit version of Mac OS X is ready for prime time. The report suggests that Apple will release an interim build of Mac OS X 10.2, code-named “Smeagol,” to bridge the gap between the release of this as-yet unannounced Mac and Mac OS X 10.3, code-named “Panther.”
Panther is the next major revision to Mac OS X, and it’s expected to take center stage during this month’s Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC), Apple’s annual gathering of registered Mac hardware and software developers. The event was originally scheduled to take place in May but got pushed off to June and changed its venue from San Jose to San Francisco. Apple said that WWDC will be the first chance that developers outside of Apple will get to see Panther in action, although Panther’s public release is still expected to be a few months off.
One issue at stake is Apple’s ability to address the gap in clock speed between PowerPC chips and those processors used in PCs. While higher clock speed is no assurance of better performance — as reiterated by Apple’s “Megahertz Myth” protestations — public perception has been shaped by PC manufacturers who are now selling Pentium 4-based systems operating at clock speeds that are more than twice as high as Apple’s best Power Mac G4s. PowerPC 970 chips can operate at considerably higher clock speeds than Mac users have thus seen from their systems.
Speculation has run rampant about Apple’s use of PowerPC 970 chips in the last few months, although Apple has been mum about its future plans. IBM’s 64-bit 970 chips can also move twice as much data in one cycle than today’s current crop of 32-bit PowerPC processors can. That 64-bit design will require some under-the-hood retooling of the compiler used for Mac OS X, according to eWeek’s report. The publication posits that 64-bit support will have to wait until Panther’s release this September, although Smeagol is expected to provide support for other architectural changes anticipated for future Mac designs.
________________
It depends of the what the definition of the word “IS” is. Right…
Have some more kool- aide. 😉
It’s truly astounding to see how many people purport to have an understanding of what “64-bit” means, but in fact do not.
There are three criteria that define “64-bitness.”
One: can an application running on a given combination of hardware and software address up to 18 billion gigs of virtual memory?
Two: can an application running on said hardware and software read from and write to files that are up to 9 billion gigs long?
Three: can an application running on said hardware and software do arithmetic with 64-bit integers and doubles?
Existing Macs running Mac OS X have two and three down. File offsets are signed long longs (up to 2^63, or 9 billion billion), and any application can manipulate long longs and doubles.
G5’s running Mac OS X 10.2.7 will have one taken care of. Now, in the current generation G5, memory is actually limited in hardware to four thousand gigabytes, and limited in practical terms to eight gigabytes. But applications can, nonetheless, allocate and address up to 18 billion gigs of virtual memory. The OS won’t stop them from doing that. (Pointers under 10.2.7 with the 64-bit compiler settings are unsigned long longs, 2^64, or 18 billion billion.)
So by any meaningful criteria, Mac OS X 10.2.7 running on G5 hardware will be a 64-bit OS. So will Panther.
>So by any meaningful criteria, Mac OS X 10.2.7 running on G5 >hardware will be a 64-bit OS. So will Panther.
LOL. I see that Steve Job knee-pad girl is back. Have some more kool-aide. 🙂
“All applications written for 32-bit implementations will run without modification on 64-bit processors running in 32-bit mode,” says IBM’s documentation.
….
How temporary ‘temporary’ turns out to be will depend on Apple’s G5 adoption rate, and the necessity of providing a smooth migration path for developers. And, indeed, the extent to which the bridge delivers the benefits of 64-bit computing without the need to re-compile everything. Apple may well feel that for now it’s gaining enough extra performance by stepping up to the 970 in 32-bit mode and that it doesn’t feel that there’s much more to gained by going to 64-bit mode. Particularly if the chip can do one mode or the other, and neither simultaneously.”
[from http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31600.html ]
In other words, Apple will have to wait to migrate to a 64bit OS, depending on user adoption of the G5 platform. In the mean time is Apple MO, like with the 68k and PPC, is the same story all over again.
Granted in the future one may see a 64bit MacOSX[If Mac’s are still around] but not yet. I know many can’t accept this simple reality.
Apple can’t drop the 32bit stuff until people migrate. And that may take years of people buying a 64bit G5 to run Apple’s [and 3rd party] 32bit code. Live with it! 🙂
I think Panther is a hype name, considering is a 32bit pussy cat. [One can picture Austin Powers doing the Apple ads].
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922
First there is “They’re”… “They’re making the doughnuts.”
then there is “There”.. “There go the doughnut makers.”
then there is “Their”.. “Those are their doughnuts.”
I don’t see how a debate on platform cost even started. I don’t go there. This is just a comment on your statement “Also, there’s no “Office XP” for the Mac. It’s called Office v.X.”. I find it lacking comparing these two suites both in functionality and reliablity. The office application suite on the windows side is quite stable and fast. This is not true for Office v.X.
“In other words, Apple will have to wait to migrate to a 64bit OS, depending on user adoption of the G5 platform. In the mean time is Apple MO, like with the 68k and PPC, is the same story all over again.”
68K code runs faster in PPC emulation than it does on a real 68K machines. There is also no code emulation in the 970. This is old news, try again.
“Granted in the future one may see a 64bit MacOSX[If Mac’s are still around] but not yet. I know many can’t accept this simple reality.”
People will accept it. Panther is gonna have a lot of buyers as will the G5. There is a lot of interest in it as the number of responses to Mac articles seem to indicate, even among PC users.
” Apple can’t drop the 32bit stuff until people migrate. And that may take years of people buying a 64bit G5 to run Apple’s [and 3rd party] 32bit code. Live with it! :-)”
People still bought 6100s, 7100s and 8100s despite the fact 68K emulation at the time was slow. These systems cost even more than the G5s today so there is no doubt people are gonna buy it and LIKE IT! Also you fail to mention that parts of the OS WILL BE 64-bit. Where do Mac people have problems? You PC people feel compelled to post comments on computers you know nothing about or can’t even AFFORD to own!
“There are three criteria that define “64-bitness.”
One: can an application running on a given combination of hardware and software address up to 18 billion gigs of virtual memory?
Two: can an application running on said hardware and software read from and write to files that are up to 9 billion gigs long?
Three: can an application running on said hardware and software do arithmetic with 64-bit integers and doubles? ”
———
You forgot:
Four: can address more than 32-bits of physical memory.
Panther allows an application to do all 4 of these (and the OS takes advantage of all them internally).
However, addressing more than 32-bits of virtual address space per user-level process is pretty useless if you have no system calls that allow you to map anything up there (and no system libraries that take and return 64-bit virtual addresses). So, you can rightfully say that Panther doesn’t meet that first definition (but interestingly the kernel does use some of it’s own virtual address above 4GB for some things – but only accesses those things in very controlled ways).
There was talk at the WWDC campus bash about a 64-bit libSystem (and appropriate system call interfaces) in a future update/release. But converting all 300+MB of Apple frameworks to support 64-bit virtual addresses/ABI will probably be a long time coming (i.e. you can have a 64-bit backend process, but the GUI part would still have to be implemented using 32-bit ABI).
Where Did APPLE say 10.3 would be 64Bit?
Mindless prattle from Mac Zealots, PC Trolls or idiot tech writers do NOT qualify as “Apple Said”.
If you are an ADC Member, and have access to the Dev Docs, what is going on is perfectly clear:
The idiotic Sun/HP/SGI way of “64 Bit” is the way it is because of CPU design, nothing more.
The G5 does not do 32bit “emulation” (ala 68k PPC Emu) it is built (presently) to be dual/switchable.
The fact that OS runtimes are 64Bit are not really relevant In Real Life…ask anyone using Solaris
That is to say, that, as USUAL in these parts, there is a LOT of yammering from folks on BOTH sides of the issue that need to hop aboard the ClueTrain Express.
So again:
Where did APPLE say Mac OS X 10.3 would be a “64Bit OS”?
If anything, they have said 64Bit Chip, new dev tools for developers to tap into those capabilities.
Show me *Apple* PR, *Apple* quotes, *Apple* documentation that makes these statements.
Otherwise, let it go.
-K
I completely agree. Where in the keynote speech did Steve Jobs say that MacOS 10.3 will be 64bit? All I heard from the speech was features thare are going to be added, some small tweaking to ultilise SOME of the benefits of the G5.
Just look at Solaris as you pointed out, IIRC, everything in Solaris is compiled against 32bit libraries, however, for 64bit machines, the appropriate libraries are installed and the kernel is 64bit.
What is the point of making the whole operating system 64bit if there is no end user benefits? as for the lower end, does Joe consumer need or want a 64bit machine? no. People who voice their opinion here represent 3% of the over all computer user base. The majority don’t give a crap what theeir front side bus speed is, what speed their AGP slot runs at or whether or not their CPU is 32bit or 64bit. What the end user cares about is the ability to run applications at an acceptable speed and able to attach the latest gizmo they have bought from Dick Smiths.
Too many people here get wraped up in the technical aspects of computing when the vast, vast, vast majority don’t give a shit, and simply use a computer to get a task completed. I spend hours talking to users and guess what the vast majority want? and easy to use operating system that allows them to get work done easily and efficiently. The majority don’t give a shit about tweaking their hardware or software to squeeze an extra 0.00001fps out of their computer.
As for me, I tend to have a more of a socialist point of view in regards to purchasing a computer. Why spend $3000 on a computer when in 3 years it will be obsolete? why spend $3000 on a machine which is a complete overkill for what your requirements are? I’ve weighed up getting either a G5 or an eMac, and there is NO justification for me to buy a G5 when taking into consideration what I use my computer for.