The Bush administration signed off Friday on the final version of the United States’ strategy for protecting the Internet and securing information systems. Additionally, Attorney General John Ashcroft wants even more power to snoop on the Internet, spy on private conversations and install secret microphones, spyware and keystroke loggers.
Bush Unveils Final Cybersecurity Plan
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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I guess that U.S.A becomes more democratic nation day by day!
Wow, this is very impressive. I’m so happy to be European. I have been living in Canada for the last few months, so i’m quite close to observe the USA and it is really striking. The american government is suppressing all liberties and people agree. It is quite unbelievable. I tihnk that the USA is slowly becoming a dictature!
According to some, the most democratic nations have been doing this for years. Like sentencing hackers to death. Jailing whole famillies for speaking against their government.
When the government starts referring to the US army as the people’s army then you can worry. Uh komrade?
USA is not becoming communist you numbnut, it’s just totalitarian
Stopping hackers? Catching perpetrators of computer crimes? Reducing the threat of cyberterrorism? Is there something wrong with that? Am I missing something?
I love how people attack the USA for actually having the guts to take on the problems of the world that everyone else pretends don’t exist. OK, next time your identity is stolen, your business looses millions of dollars, or your utilities go down because of cyberterrorism, I’ll just remind you how lucky you are not to be living in the USA.
Regards,
Jared
Freedom is NOT about hacking into other people’s computers and stealing money, info or data. That is called CRIME.
If America is so hated then why does everyone seem to want to be here. Guess their country isn’t as free as we are lead to believe. Better look to the whole world for what is free. England is jailing people for defending their homes. Canada is taking the guns that the Native people use to provide food. Huh? Free what?
> why does everyone seem to want to be here. Guess their country isn’t as free as we are lead to believe.
No, it’s just that here there is a lot of money to be made. The land of the opportunity. That doesn’t mean that USA is more democratic or free than an other country though. Could be, could be not. Depends with which other country you are comparing with.
Sad that money is almost greed. I have been to a lot of crooked countries. A billion people live in China under almost no freedom. The Muslim world forces a religious law on all. Huh? 2 billion, Don’t get me going on Europe. South America is fraught with Money (crime,murder) from the world wide usage of drugs. No place is free. America is still one of the most free places to live. Tell me who has suffered here because of being not free????
I also lived in Germany, UK, Greece and spent some time in France. I see these countries being at least as free as USA, if not more in some specific issues.
Maybe UK being the least free of the ones I mentioned, mostly because of the monitoring on employees or citizens. I didn’t notice anything disturbing to the other countries I lived in, though.
Bush is a dangerous man, hope you americans have new elections soon. If this guy stays in business there will be no country left in the world that likes America (other then an economic opportunity, but that’s gonne change, in the 21 Century China will become the economic superpower and america will have difficult times).
Time to install pgp/gpg with four-thousand-and-something bit keys and plugging out your modem when you type?
You poor, poor Americans.
In places like (you pick) the leader is a henchman who leads by force. In America the Persident is an Executive who is only a figure head. The leadership of the nation is by the elected Congress.
I am all for the concept that former president Andrew Jackson had. An isolated US that protected it boarders and had nothing to do with the rest of the US.
Maybe then some rouge dictator would not have put weapons grade anthrax in the mail to the Congress and the media.
The whole point is in the United States we can actually pick the leaders. They don’t in the UK and they spy on the Internet already and on the streets. If you don’t like the way it is run then choose a different representive in Congress or your state or city. ORRR get off you behind and run for office yourself. In California a foreign born actor might run for the states higest office. Where else could that happen Greece,France,UK? I think not!
Should read ..rest of the world.
Is the act of protecting the digital world too much?
Small country revolts against big overbearing country
Small country establishes just and moral principles
Based on principles, country grows big and powerful
Big country allows others to subvert its core culture & values
Big country rots from within, loses principles
Big country becomes big overbearing country
Big country cannot maintain cost structure
Big country falls apart
Rich stay rich
Poor stay poor
Middle class is no more
America is almost out of money and is living on the grace of eras past as it borrows its way into the future.
Even as America forces her wars upon the world, America calls up the events of 50+ years past as some sort of rationalization.
On the domestic front, the coming privitization of social security will be the scam that makes the dotcom ripoff look like a kiddie game.
It seems that if we keep going along the same road, we’re very close to the end game. The end of the American dream. The end of the middle class. The end of propserity.
And the beginning of World War III, the war without end.
–ms
Yay!
Ashcroft is my hero!!!
The internet is one of the easiest ways to communicate for terrorists. There is no controlling or monitoring global force for the ‘net. With high encryption (and a million other means), any terrorist can run his communication lines with ease.
If the govt. has to do it, let them. I don’t want another 9/11.
*Dons flame-proof suit and runs into nearby lake*
Tha act of protecting your digital security is good, but when you give your law enforcment machine virtually unlimited powers to do whatever they please then you’re treading on dangeroud ground. Did you read the article? FBI have misused their powers quite a bit in the past, eh? Catholic priests, Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King, ect. Do you really trust total strangers that much that you feel comfortable saying “you’ve got a federal badge, so here is a free card to monitor anything and everything I do, anytime and anywhere for whatever reason you want”? Because that’s where Ashcroft is definitively heading!
As a scandinavian myself, I am amazed at the level of sheer insanity that this proposal constitutes. I perfectly understand that the underlying meaning is to catch terrorists, but you just CAN’T give a semi-clandestine law inforcement agency a free card like THAT! I have been pro-american all my life, but it really seems like the USA has started to get creepy in the past 10 years. You’re building a totalitarian state, and you do so seemingly of your own free will.
And I’m not bashing the USA. Not at all. But you really need to take the blindfolds off and quit raving about how “free” you are and how perfect your country is, because it just isn’t. Europe is just as good (and better managed at that too). If you want to study a free society with low crime rates, a good democratic and legal system and a medical system that actually treats you without making you bankrupt, come to any scandinavian country. Come and check out what freedom really is!
Aren’t we a little bit to omptimistic…?
Democracy’s origin is – believe it or not – Greece (OK, in fact, it is/was Athen), not the USA.
Why do you think that, in the UK, you can’t pick your leaders?
Do you think that, in the rest of the world, someone rolls a dice to determine it’s presidents?
The USA is far from beeing free these days…
Would they like to elaborate on what “activities threatening the national security interest” are? This could be anything they like.
Hang on, I’ll have to look this one up on dictionary.com…
Subpoena: A writ requiring appearance in court to give testimony.
Huh?
Testimony: A declaration by a witness under oath, as that given before a court or deliberative body.
Oh, I get it now. Damn legal jargon.
So why do they need them subpoenas to be secret? Is there any possible just reason for this? This will allow them to carry out unjust trials without anyone knowing.
OK, wait a min…
Felony: One of several grave crimes, such as murder, rape, or burglary, punishable by a more stringent sentence than that given for a misdemeanor.
What kind of computer crime could be described as felony? I can’t think of any off hand. Except for burglary, if you hacked into a network and stole documents. But if you only made a copy of the document, is this necessarily theft or is it something else?
What the heck.
Postal services are an easy way to deliver mailbombs (or Anthrax), would you like your government to open and read all YOUR mail, just in case…
The telephone is an easy way to communicate for criminals, do you want your government to hear all YOUR calls, just in case…
Well, the government doesn’t know if you’re a terrorist, and you sure aren’t, so I guess it’s OK for YOU to let the government know EVERYTHING about you – but for most people, that’s quite scary. And it gets even more scary if you think about how this knowledge could be (mis)used.
Maybe some day, you write an email to a friend, complaining about some raised taxes, and a few houres later the FBI knocks on your door and arrests you, because your email was un-american, so you may be a terrorist – wouldn’t that be cool???
“Bush is a dangerous man”
I’m sorry, but you are full of shit. You have no idea what you are talking about. Try to get a clue before you write. The one and only reason why people dislike America is because of jealousy. We are the the most powerful (by a long shot) country in the world with the most freedom and opportunity.
As for Bush, I guess you would rather he sit around and let countries like Iraq continue to execute their own people and continue to threaten other countries with weapons of mass destruction. Thank God we have somebody with some balls and conviction in the White House who will stand up and protect the US and MANY other countries. Keep in mind that there are approximately 50 countries on board with Bush.
I wasted enough time on your ignorance.
-G
Amerika, das Land der unmöglichen Beschränktheiten!
I was born, have lived and intend to die an American citizen.
All countries have problems. Ours are just in the news today.
To my fellow Americans who think this is a great place, and will stay so because our government is elected, here are a few things to thinks about…
Hitler was elected in a public election.
“all evil needs to succeed in the world is for good people to do nothing.”
Voter turn out has been declining.
“Those who are willing to exchange freedom for security deserve neither.” — Ben Franklin
We have lost the right to due process if we are ‘accused’ of a terrorist act.
Taping of phone calls, e-mail,… without a warrent have been OKed or are in the works.
Soon if your door is kicked in, posesions taken, and you are put in some form of holding, because your name is the same as some terrorist, you can not call a lawyer to straiten it out. If you do get released they owe you nothing for your time, your door, and do not even have to return your property. No innocent until proven guilty, no civil liberties,… Does this sound like the country you grew up in?
To keep this country great all Americans need to pay attention to what our elected officials think we want. Let them know when they get off track, and are not looking after our rights. This means being an informed voter.
So stay informed, and vote!
I’ve always been interested in the Scandinavian countries. They’re only a short trip across the North Sea away but I’ve never been to any of them. Finland seems really cool and the people sound just like me… weird! (I don’t mean that in a bad way). Maybe I will when I get some money :0 And go to the cool things like the demo scene parties and stuff
You’re the most funny, patriotic and stupid guy around here, thank you for enlighting us poor, jealous, powerless, unfree and doomed ‘rest of the world’ citizens…
“As for Bush, I guess you would rather he sit around and let countries like Iraq continue to execute their own people…” blablabla
OK, well, so your overestimated, never victorious army should prevent the Iraq from executing his people simply by killing the civilians – that’s brilliant, that way there won’t be much people left to be executed by Saddam…
Oh yes, and what’s this shit about “threaten other countries” – who are those other countries?
Even if Iraq HAD wapons of mass destruction – and there’s still no evidence – they couldn’t reach the US, so I don’t think it’s the USA’s business to ‘protect’ those ‘other countries’ – after all, all of Americas ‘friends’ in that region are able to defend themselves if neccessary.
In the old Soviet Union a person claimed that Americans had more rights. The comrad said why? In America you can go to the President and say this place stinks! The friend say so? You can go to our leader and say America stinks too?
I hope for a world of freedom for all. I hope for peace and food a plenty. I also know that everyone in not exactly onboard with that idea too. Hard to tell sometimes. Mostly a good example and working towards that direction is all one can do.
What is the House of Lords in England and how does it differ from the House of Commons? Vote? Who has power, Commons?
Oh, don’t BOTHER to reaspond to gmlongo. That’s just feeding the offended 13-year old brat. No, seriously, his message was so uninformed, ignorant of the real world and immature that I’m pretty much convinced that he’s a 11-13 year old who got offended… Don’t bother feeding him.
Lasst euch nicht BRDigen!
…that people would stop conflating fear and contempt for the way America is currently being run with some kind of anti-Americanism based on jealously. Now if they were to call it anti-GOP-ism than it might be more appropriate.
It’s crazy. It’s like, if americans are forced to drive smaller, more fuel efficient cars then the terrorists have already won, but if civil liberties are stripped away and easily-abused survellance(sp?) powers introduced, then that’s just fine…
” Additionally, Attorney General John Ashcroft wants even more power to snoop on the Internet, spy on private conversations and install secret microphones, spyware and keystroke loggers.”
Here’s a thought. How would all these people who demand these laws, feel about being on the recieving end of them? Care to put it to the test?
*rant mode*
Why doesn’t the USA (and all other countries, like my own (UK)) stop being busybodies. Iraq is hardly a country, it is severly undeveloped, and the daily bombings that happen there don’t help things (is it in the no fly zones? I dunno but there was this program on Channel 4 about present day Iraq and places were bombed daily)… er anyway. Thinking back to my history classes in secondary school, I heard of the Kings and Queens of England, they sound very much like the dictators of today. So my mind put two and two together. It’s natural for them to be like this. All countries have to go through brutal times in their development. My own personal morals are that I shouldn’t intefere with other people. So maybe if the “Western World” got on with it’s own business then these countries may have a chance to develop. Saddam would eventually be ousted, or would die. But I forget. Today there is a difference – technology. But how does an undeveloped country get hold of it? Well they buy it, from the USA or Russia or whoever. But I miss the point that the media is floating around. This is supposed to be protecting us from attack. Why do they attack us? Because we attack them? Because their is an inbalance of wealth? More complex problems. We get back to money, captialism and so forth. This is not their problem. It’s everyone’s.
*rant mode off*
<>
and to the rest of u knocking the USA for their policies….just wait till someone fucs with your country…..you’ll love the USA then because we will be protecting and fighting for you people.
Wft? When did OSNews become a childrens hangout?
we have something called a supreme court that can AND will over turn this when the ACLU gets done with it.
I can’t forget when I read “Talking in Whispers” in English class. It’s a fictional book, but an accurate representation of the time it was written.
There is a real story behind it. Salvador Allende, a socialist, was elected by the people of Chile in democratic election.
The US did not like this at all. They put on their “KILL ALL COMMUNISTS!” caps on and got to work (failing to recongnise that there is a difference between socialism and communism).
The CIA was supported fascists in the country and a coup began. Allende was assasinated. They set up like death places like the Nazis. People “disappeared”.
That’s why I don’t trust USA. Look at it’s track record. What about Afghanistan? We hear nothing of the place no more. I wonder how the new leaders are treating the populace…
this is not about if they are a threat or not…it is about the security councle and the UN in general being relivent…if you listen to BLix today, he said there were a whole host of things that Iraq has not done and rules he has broken….France;s responce….It is working!!! that is nice that we can catch Iraq breaking the law. but what about punishment? woudl it be good if we can cathc a serial killer while he killed and connect him to other murders but then let him go on killing? or a car theif can be surveiled steeling cars so we can get the cars back from the chop shop but we don’t bothe stoping the act of theft? that is what the UN is doing….what is going to happen when the Iraq issue is over and done with and we turn to N. Korea? who can the UN tell N. Korea to stop making Nukes? if we let france come up with a plan, we will watch them make nukes and then destroy the ones we find…that is not a very safe way to move forward.
Total Information Awareness.
Run by adm. poindexter (convicted in the 80’s for lying to congress, re contra arms).Which was checked for now by Congress last week -thanks to our checks and balances.
The weakening of the FOIA by executive order.
These are 2 other examples of where we have to be aware of what the gov. is doing regardless of who is in office.
The special interest groups lobbying congress to do their bidding is also a major concern to our freedoms.I am thinking of the laws passed recently- DRMA, weakening by the FCC of the barriers of the concentration of media holdings.
Lots a stuff to be vigilant about.
The american government has become a reckless, very, arrogant bully, and it is really working hard to ensure that its country is universally disliked in the world. The Bush gang is even threatening nuclear war thesedays. Its unbelievable, especially considering that ordinary americans are generally fine people.
umm…no, the Governmnet has NEVER taken Nukes off the table of options….it is a final option but it is an option…whay you have heard was pundints talking about the possability of nukes being used…but the government is not actualy thinking about using them in place of conventional war.
“but the government is not actualy thinking about using them in place of conventional war.”
Actually, that is not correct. There are scenarios being bandied about by the gov. in using tactical nukes and nuke bunker busters in Iraq.
So yes, they are thinking about it.
Ok, maybe you are correct in your statement in a narrow sense, but they are thinking of using them in conjunction w/ conventional war.
responsable and not has senarios…there were senerios for using Nukes in Bosnia and Kosavo, the UK has senarios for using Nukes on france and france has senarios for using them on Germany…that does not mean that it is being considered seriously…it just shows that nations are pregmatic and will make sure they are prepaird for EVERY eventuality.
BTW, The US withdrew from the ABM treaty last year for that reason-to be able to develop and use tactical nukes.
yeah and Russia is developing them as well
I predict…
Nukes in Armageddon.
Write them down!
I was responding to your statement that the US is not considering the use of nukes and only pundits are talking about it.
it’s not just pundits talking about using nukes in Iraq, its Rumsfeld ,etc.
France and germany don’t want war so lets lay off, let them have their stupid non-working inspections and we can just sit back and not trouble ourselfs with the problems of the world (out side of humanitarian aid), then no one will protest the US and we can focus on closing our borders to illegal substances, alient and terrorists…then mabye france will get nuked or germany will get bio-ed or Russia will get chemed and we can laught and say “told you so”
I can tell you that Bush on on the path to no re-election based on the world hating us and we will probably become isolationist in a political sence in 2-4 years.
I’m not going to continue the whole country discussion. ALL countries have their problems, and it’s often difficult to see the bars from inside the cage.
The problem for democratic countries is how much power to give the government, and it’s agencies, without losing the democractic system itself. Remember that it is politicians that are elected in a democracy, not the agencies which government uses to implement its policies. Should an agency of government ever find itself outside the control of the government itself then in a very real sense democracy has been lost.
That’s the part of this that worries me more than anything. I’m not a US citizen so I don’t know the current balance of power between unelected and elected organs of the US government. However it’s obvious that this legislation will enhance the powers of unelected officials. Now it’s highly unlikely that the US government will hand over this power without sufficient controls being in place, and it’s also unlikely that any government agency can become strong enough to ignore those controls with impunity. However, it does represent a shift, and such changes aren’t to be taken lightly, or with only a short term view in mind.
As for the privacy issue. Imagine your government (Of whichever country you happen to live in) had already implanted anti-privacy chips in your PC, already distributed various spyware programs, and was already monitoring every one of your online activities BUT hadn’t said a word about it publicly. Would you notice? How would it affect the average person in any way? Are you really so paranoid as to think that a government body is consumed with interest in the minutiae of your existence?
Privacy is relative, and we only really get that invasive feeling when we KNOW that someone is watching what we’re doing. If having your activities monitored is kept covert then how exactly does it affect your life? Of course the flip-side to that argument is that if you know about the monitoring then it directly affects your life.
As with most things it’s unlikely that the US, or any other government, will get the legislation weighted correctly the first time it’s created. What is good to see though is that their government is taking action (Action, even if misdirected, is always better than sitting around hoping the problem will go away) about these issues, although I dislike playing on people’s fears about terrorism to make the more heavy handed elements seem reasonable.
Oh, and as a parting shot, none of us live in a democracy. What we actually have are oligarchies and a political ruling class, but that’s just my opinion :>.
You are wrong to say their is no evidence of WMD in Iraq. In fact there is well documented proof that Irag has chemical and biological weapons…dating all the way back to the Gulf War Part 1. What is going on know is that Saddam is not producing them NOW. He cannot account for the stuff the UN knew about years ago. So you beleive that he has voluntarily destroyed these – as per the cease fire agreement after his illegal invasion of a sovereign nation – and is a changed man?
Unreal. The majority if the UN is in favor of going ahead. Even if all other issues were removed (WMD, etc) Saddam deserves to be brought down due to his dispicable human rights violations.
Regarding this “securing the internet”, I was under the impression one of it’s main draws was the fact that it’s such a lawless place. I’m not advocating electronic theft, or hacking or anything, but to have some government body take it upon itself to read every email, web post, website, etc… Isn’t privacy a concern anymore? How are these new laws going to be enforced? Are we going to prosecute people for using encryption? I wonder why these types of laws arn’t being passed regarding other mediums of communication? Will everyone have a wiretap? Will every letter be read?
I’m sorry, but this arguement that there is so much more “free” then every other country in the world is a joke. We laugh at Iraq when they say they had a democratic election – Oh yeah, there’s only one name on the ballot. In the US things are so much better because there’s 2.
This is a rant… I don’t like secret trials. I don’t trust organizations that press for war, and when asked for evidence regarding why claim it is a secret.
don’t misuse the word democracy…..freedom and democracy might be put together more often than not, but they are seperate things..you can have democracy with no freedom and you can have freedom with no democracy.
no one is stoping you from living in the woods or even a pre internet existence….I can use a computer and have no privacy concerns as long as I stay off the net.
Regardless of what side the polical spectrum one is on, I do see a disturbing trend of the attempt toreign in the ‘freedom’ of the internet.
From the RIAA’s desire to look at all computer users as possible ‘criminals’, to the ‘Total information Awareness’ office set up recently.
I would hope people will stay aware of whats happening.
Listen I’m not Jealous, I’m not stupid or ignorant, I’m a concerned Canadian I live in a city of a million called Calgary, where I enjoy probably most of the freedoms that Americans do.
I want America to attack Iraq, I was happy when most of Al’Qaida was torn apart. But I get concerned when cyber security goes to the point where all conversations are monitored, and some Fed listens to everyone talk waiting for somebody to slip up and say something. I’m all for security but I’m also all about freedom, hell I’m a capitalist living in a Socialist country.
Freedom comes at cost, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of our personal lives, that’s not freedom, it’s a contradiction.
have you ever voted? there are more than 2 names in most races…try lookin at the balot.
“have you ever voted? there are more than 2 names in most races…try lookin at the balot.”
Well, I dodn’t vote but even if I had, since George ‘Numbnuts Cokehead Executioner Enron-hoe Moron Dubya’ Bush was elected by the Supreme Court, my vote wouldn’t have counted anyway.
“To keep this country great all Americans need to pay attention to what our elected officials think we want. Let them know when they get off track, and are not looking after our rights. This means being an informed voter. ”
Eh, just give the average American their Platinum Credit Card and a six pack, and they could give two shits about what the government does. If there is any reason why Americans are hated so much, I think this is probably it.
you don’t vote well then shut up…mabye if you lived in Tenn or Florida your vote would have changed things…..you do know that if Gore won his home state that EVERY presidential candidate does, florida would have been a non issue. and if you think the president has real power then you are stupid….Congress are the ones who make the decisions on laws that give the president power..al the president can do is veto a bill and even then congress can pass the bill if they get a 2/3 of congress to vote for it again…..and guess who your vote counts 1:1 for…your senator and congressperson….so vote stupid.
“and if you think the president has real power then you are stupid”
must.resist.insult.
personally, if it prevents terrorism then thats fine by me.
see, terrorism is diffrent.
and the usa is what you wanna be like really, you are just too jeolous or proud to admit it.
seriousely….the president has only the level of power that congress give him. sure, he is comander n cheif of the millitary but he does not have the ability to use those forces without congress saying so…and those rules were liberealized by congress….and he can not pass laws, he can only push for a certain draft of a bill that he likes, congress must vote on it…..even if the president does not like a bill and vetos it, congress can still over ride the veto if they like…..face facts, the president has no real power over our lifes…congress GIVES him that power and hence Congress has the power over our lifes…you don’t like how congress votes get new congress people and senators in office.
there is a reason that we have a direct vote in our congress person and out senators..tehy are the ones with real power.
BTW…name one power that the president does not constitutionaly have by default that is more powerful that congress or the supreme court(who is the most powerful in some sence) and that congress has not give him or that the supreme court has not decided was a constitutional power.
In the US, tens, or even hundreds, of thousands, of people have demonstrated and will continue to demonstrate against the government’s policies. I recently demonstrated against the government’s policies (although not on war).
No action is taken against the demonstrators, & it’s not even much of a news item, since this happens with regularity. No one I know or see on TV or read in print, seriously claims the demonstrators haven’t the right to do what they’re doing, even though quite a few are organized by Marxist organizations like Workers World Party… hardly “American” in their outlook.
As long as people are allowed to organize and demonstrate against their government and/or its policies, and are even lionized by large segments of the culture, our freedoms are not at risk. Not getting your way, is NOT the same as not being free.
What WOULD be news, is if people were to demonstrate against the government’s policies in, say… Iraq. Or Saudi Arabia. Or China. Or North Korea. But of course, that won’t happen any time soon, because leaving butchers in power is more profitable to Europeans and Americans alike. (Except when there’s no oil involved, like Yugoslavia… HA! the Europeans weren’t demanding a Security Council resolution then!) The UN is ruled by thugs, and the US is hardly the guiltiest among them.
For the record… I’m American; I’m not in favor of another war in Iraq. But neither am I opposed to war in Iraq. No one has demonstrated to my satisfaction that one option is worse than the other (and to me, both options have grotesquely undesirable consequences).
And some of what I’ve written, I’ve exaggerated for effect. Don’t take me too seriously here. 🙂
The executive branch is more powerful today than it ever was.
Your simplistic statements are not fully factual in the power gaining trend re the executive branch the last 40 or so years.And the last couple of years have seen a greater grab for power from the exectutive branch.
good, u can sit there and be anal rapped out of all your privacy
nice to see thats what most you americans want!
the executive branch is more powerful today ONLY becasue the congress has allowed it to be…..if they repeal the law the instated the FBI, the CIA, the DOD and the NSA where is the executive branch then? and you know what…the president has no power to stop the congress from doing so if they ever did. that is power
I guess it’s okay that the US police smash people up, spray them with pepper spray, shoot them with rubber bullets, beat them, arrest them, charge them, etc.
There has been significant police violence at most of the recent protests in the United States.
More important, protesters are equated with terrorists by Ashcroft and the test of the Bush administration. One wrong statement and you could end up in the American equivalent of a concentration camp.
That really equates to “freedom of speech” right? You can say whatever you want, but I’ll smash your face in, arrest you, label you as a terrorist, and ruin your life forever.
Why are there even police at a protest? Why do the police look for fights? Why are government agencies filming the protests and putting the names of people they can identify on secret lists?
Ya know, if everyone were allowed to carry a gun like the old days of the US, the police wouldn’t dare fuck with anyone at a protest.
Something to think about as every right in the Consitution and Bill of Rights is being stripped away and replaced with rules that make 1984 look like utopia.
<offtopic>
i want to ask a question to all americans here who favor to attack iraq. Why don’t u want to attack north korea first? N.K. is _much_ more dangerous than any country in the world. I’d be supportive to an american attack on N.K. Although i’m strictly against war against iraq. Iraq is almost defenseless, so it is easy. In French we say “À combattre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire”. There is only one reason for the american government to attack Iraq : oil! It is not a matter of human rights because american government has supported many dictatorial governments (do you remember of Pinochet, in Chile, among _many_ others?), and is dealing without any problems with countries like China or Saudi Arabia for instance. It is not a matter of weapons, many countries have lots of non-cenventional weapons. I’ve not heard US government asking Israël to stop producing nuclear weapons …
There are many reason why people disagree with the USA on this subject and on other. I have to remind that the USA has nuclear, chemical and bacteriological weapons too (why don’t you destroy this kind of weapons in the USA first?). The USA is the only country of the world who refuses to forbid anti-personal mines. The USA refuses to reduce its emission of greenhouse gases. Etc.
</offtopic>
The problem of total awareness is that it just increasing the spying of the american government on the world. Have you ever heard of ECHELON? It is the same idea. I don’t want the NSA to know everything about me. It is not their business. I’d be curious to know if they already know me. lol!
if your idea of a protest is trashing businesses and having no permits, acausting and attacking th epolice who are there just to make sure the protests don’t turn into riots…then your on the wrong side of the law and pepper spray/rubber bullets/fire hoses are prefectly legal ways to deal with rioters.
actualy, I would say N. Korea is as dangerous. not to mention that Bin Laden is not going to deal with a totalitarian Communist asian easier than a totalitarian communist arab.
>>sure, he is comander n cheif of the millitary but he does not have the ability to use those forces without congress saying so<<
Sure he does. The President simply needs to notify Congress within 48 hours of the commencement of hostilities, and then has 90 days to do whatever he wishes with those troops without the approval of congress. In order for the troops to stay longer, there must be a resolution by the Congress allowing the President to continue using the troops, or a formal declaration of war – see the War Powers Act of 1973.
>>and he can not pass laws, he can only push for a certain draft of a bill that he likes, congress must vote on it<<
Not necessarily so – the President can issue an Executive Order – which may or may not be a law, or a modification to a law. Some examples : banning the private ownership of gold, closed banks, interring Americans of Japanese descent in prison camps, Inspection of Congressional tax Returns, creation of the Peace Corps, and so on.
>>the president has no real power over our lifes … congress GIVES him that power<<
Ummm, yes he does – and a considerable amount at that, and no they don’t. Just because a power is delegated to an executive branch agency – doesn’t mean it soen’t belong to the President. He just has more important things to do than bust you for selling cigarettes without a tax stamp, so he gives that authority to someone else. Also – The Constitution gives him the power – Congress and the courts check and balance that power.
>>BTW…name one power that the president does not constitutionaly have by default that is more powerful that congress or the supreme court(who is the most powerful in some sence) and that congress has not give him or that the supreme court has not decided was a constitutional power.<<
Apparently the ability to detaining prisoners of an undeclared war for an indeterminate amount of time for alleged war crimes the may or may not have committed becqause of their alleged involvement with a legitimate and internationally recognized government, that earned the ire of the President because of their alleged association with an alleged terrorist organization.
***and I say everything is *alleged* because none of the following has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law by a jury of peers as provided for ALL in the constitution of the United States***
FH – A disgusted and disgruntled formerly-free American.
“Sure he does. The President simply needs to notify Congress within 48 hours of the commencement of hostilities, and then has 90 days to do whatever he wishes with those troops without the approval of congress. In order for the troops to stay longer, there must be a resolution by the Congress allowing the President to continue using the troops, or a formal declaration of war – see the War Powers Act of 1973. ”
the key word in there is ACT..as in given to him by congress…in other words…COngress has the power and can take it away.
“Not necessarily so – the President can issue an Executive Order – which may or may not be a law, or a modification to a law. Some examples : banning the private ownership of gold, closed banks, interring Americans of Japanese descent in prison camps, Inspection of Congressional tax Returns, creation of the Peace Corps, and so on. ”
all powers provided by the constitution according to the US Supreme court and as such NOT subject to this debate.
“Ummm, yes he does – and a considerable amount at that, and no they don’t. Just because a power is delegated to an executive branch agency – doesn’t mean it soen’t belong to the President. He just has more important things to do than bust you for selling cigarettes without a tax stamp, so he gives that authority to someone else. Also – The Constitution gives him the power – Congress and the courts check and balance that power. ”
wrong wrong wrong……all the agencies out side the origional 4 provided by the constitution are made by congress and must follow laws regulateing them passed by congress. your last sentence is foolich becasue every branch checks and balences each other to certain degrees…the only branch that can not be removed by another branch happens to be congress…judicial and executive can be removed by congress hence they have more power.
“Apparently the ability to detaining prisoners of an undeclared war for an indeterminate amount of time for alleged war crimes the may or may not have committed becqause of their alleged involvement with a legitimate and internationally recognized government, that earned the ire of the President because of their alleged association with an alleged terrorist organization. ”
those detainies are not american citizens and are were not on american soil…they were on another countries soil and hence do not fall under civil laws…the president can not detain American citizens or forgin people on US soil. they must go through the judicial system.
Well in my state you can carry a gun like in the old days, all you need is a clean, law abiding record and a permit and you too can be pistol packing.
As for NK, They too will be dealt with, but in time and prioritized. They are not an immediate threat to US just yet, obviously our intel says that Iraq is. Diplomacy si being tried as we speak, just as we did for 12 years with Iraq.
As for protesting – quit watching those WTO protests on CNN. They do not represent the typical protest in America. Those granola eating hippies are only there to cause havoc, not peacefully promote an agenda.
>>the key word in there is ACT..as in given to him by congress…in other words…COngress has the power and can take it away.<<
Actually it is a limitation on a constitionally granted power – so they cannot take it away without a constitutional ammendment.
>>wrong wrong wrong……all the agencies out side the origional 4 provided by the constitution are made by congress and must follow laws regulateing them passed by congress.<<
All agencies must follow regulations made by congress, regardless of when or how they were created. That doesn’t mean they are under congressional control. The Department of Homeland Security created last year for example, ismost certainly under executive control. You are wrong wrong wrong, sir.
>>all powers provided by the constitution according to the US Supreme court and as such NOT subject to this debate.<<
Except the examples I gave were examples of Legislation by order – not the intention of the Constituion. Creation of an Adency, deprivation of property, etc. – And there are PLENTY more where that came from.
>>the president can not detain American citizens or forgin people on US soil<<
Guantanamo Bay Naval Base IS United States soil by virtue of it being a military installation. Also, what of US Citizen Joes Padilla – who is being held in the United States INDEFINITELY on suspicion of terrorism, without being afforded legal counsel, being charged with a crime, or prosecuted at trial?
>>they were on another countries soil and hence do not fall under civil laws<<
You are right, this would fall under international law, such as the Geneva Convention, to which the US is a signatory nation, and as such MUST follow it (if not legally obliged, then morally obliged to do so). If that is your argument, the the prisoners should be turned over to the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague for prosecution, and not held on American soil.
Hmm… you say that More important, protesters are equated with terrorists by Ashcroft and the test of the Bush administration. One wrong statement and you could end up in the American equivalent of a concentration camp.
The actual facts:
In Washington, White House press secretary Ari Fleischer called the day’s anti-war protests a “time-honored tradition” in democracy. http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/10/sproject.irq.celebrity.le…
Again:
The White House says President Bush welcomes these demonstrations. Press Secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters Friday that they underscore U.S. democracy. ( http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/17/wbr.generation.demo/index.html )
LOl.
If Ari said it , it MUST be true.
Wake up.
Who can tell me the perfect way to live in the world? I dunno. I want to be safe from false arrest and also keep bad people in check. I think my communications ought to be secure but don’t like the idea of a terror plot? One wants to be secure in knowing that everyone rights are protected. Don’t regular people need to have laws protecting them more that what bad people seem to get? The world has foolishly put a lot of faith in computers. Each day they control planes and run trains. I know evil people will always be in the world. Can they be allowed to ruin the Western world by hijacking tower controls? There are groups that wish that very thing.
I am sure that the average person in Iraq is a good person. I don’t think Sadam is too much fun. An 8 year war with Iran and another with Kuwait left millions of people dead and non the richer.
Can you tell me how to make this a perfect world?
I support what the United States Goverment is doing,
Number 1.
You all owe the creation of the Internet to the United States Government, the United States Government funded and legislated the internet into creation.
Number 2.
If intercepting an e-mail stops another day like September 11th
or some guy from shooting up a Mc Donalds I am 100% for it,
Number 3.
If you have something thats that important to hide, you should not put it in the public domain.
I live in a country who’s leaders are evil dick channy/robot the puppet master and bush the idiot coke head no matter who you vote for your still screwed living in a no party state.
I don’t agree with what’s happening but there’s nothing you can do about it!!!! <B/> ( if that’s not bold sorry but that’s my first time trying) don’t give me that voting crap everyone in govenment is money hungery ha ha vote lets make a difference ha ha ha ha funnist stuff I ever heard remember what the civil war was all about?? states rights not all the power in washington and they lost!!! (Slavery is still wrong though so that would have sucked).
America’s leaders make me look bad and now everyone hates me
I’m sorry world ok can’t you just look at the people not the governemt I didn’t put dumb ass in the white house ok?the worst part is America forcing it’s new draconen laws on the rest of the world so there’s nowere to run to unless anyone has any idea’s?? everyone is enacting anti-terror laws you don’t like someone oh no your a terrorist
also that guy that said oh I don’t mind as long as it prevends another 9/11 hello!!! do you really think they are ever going to give up power???? nooooooo just worse and worse hopfully I can die before it gets really bad
P.S. I hate Liberials so don’t call me one tree hugging hippy crap save the trees!! oh dear god think of the trees!! oh no let’s go march in a peace rally lets do some stupid shit and get pepper sprayed by the police oh and (fuck the police even if I do respect the few good ones they still abuse the power, give them an inch they take a mile just like the government.) oh oh I can make a difference ha ha ha ha I’m all about making money having a nice life what even that takes, hell if they said we’ll give you this sack of money but you have to become a slimey evil republican I’d say sure were to I sign up. And one last thing one big middle finger to the governemt drone reading this yep I ranted yep I must be a terrorist time to lock me up.
I forgot to say E your doing a great job running OSNEWS thanks for the site and maybe you have an unmarryied sister??
oops all bold :*(
Go here and open your eyes:
Snowshoefilms.com
here is a map of where they are:
http://nyc.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/terrormap_24x36.pdf
LOl
If Ari said it , it MUST be true.
Wake up.
ROTFL — Read what I was replying to, and grow up. Or, at least start reading half your brain and put up some evidence that supports the guy I was replying to. Put up, or shut up.
have no clue and don’t vote sowhy should we or even elected officials care what they say?
“Number 1”
Paid for by taxing the citizens, and employing civilians in part to make it happen.
“Number 2”
It will not. Crimminals by definition, don’t play by the rules. Mr Crimminal, will you please use E-mail to commit your crimes, so we can use it against you?
“Number 3”
Well there goes using the Telephone, or Snail Mail. Yes E-mail should fall under the same catagory.
Go read the Federalist Papers for some idea of the way Government should be.
the federalist papers were proverbaly thrown out when the civil war occured. yes the issue might have revolved around slavery but that was a seroget for the real issue, how much power and indipendence do states realy have…..Lincoln basicly said they have not the level offered by the federalist papers
What about all these soccer mom’s driving vehicles of “Mass Destruction”?
🙂
they are supporting terror full out…me, I drive a small car so I only support it a little bit, so I might as well buy a little bit of drugs :-p
So far, the only people I’ve heard of being arrested and held without trial, without a lawyer, blah blah blah, are the real Richard Reid types — Jose Padilla, the ex-Taliban freaks from Afghanistan, people like that. Hell, even the Beltway Sniper duo got a trial. I must have missed the news about that massive scandal that’s threatening to lead to Bush’s impeachment — you know, how federal police are turning all of the peace protests we’ve been having around the U.S. into the equivalent of Selma, smashing heads and siccing dogs on protesters and everything else — I guess I overlooked those stories.
And if you all are so worried about getting arrested and thrown in some gulag over what could be said, maybe you should worry about the feds reading what you’ve been posting here! >:D
(As far as getting arrested because I HAPPEN to have the same name as some terrorist — well, I could also be killed by a meteor or run over by a bus, but I’m not going to spend my days worrying about it.)
“Saddam deserves to be brought down due to his dispicable human rights violations. ”
I’m sure the Iraqis wants to be killed by your bombs instead? And the children that are born with severe defects from your (was-supposed-to-be-)depleted uranium shells sure must love it? The half a million kids who died since the war thanks to the embargos may not think “It’s worth it” even if US ex-foregin minister Albright thinks so.
And why didn’t you care about the human rights when Saddam was a puppet for USA? Why didn’t you care about the Talibans violations before they refused an oil pipe deal with USA? Why don’t you care about the human rights violations in Saudi Arabia? in Turkey? They don’t show it on CNN? How surprising…
And for the cowards who are willing to give up their freedom because they are scared: Try to find out the reasons WHY people prefer to kill themselves in an attack instead of living on (start with the US foregin policy). A start would be to shut down the terrorist training camp in Fort Benning, Georgia. http://www.soaw.org
It’s always possible to have an 100% uncrackable encryption if you really want to (see one-time pad) so you’re giving up your rights in vain.
It seems a bunch of regulars from DemocraticUnderground.com decided to visit OSNews today. I bet an awful lot of you agree with the sentiments of that peace protester in California who carried the sign that said THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUSH AND SADDAM IS THAT SADDAM WAS ELECTED.
At this point there is almost no point in refuting such lunacy. The people who say such things will continue to say these things, even as the months go by and they are proven WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The U.S. will liberate Iraq and PROVE, to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, just how hideous Saddam’s regime really is. The U.S. will PROVE just how amoral and corrupt the governments of France and Germany really are in supplying Iraq with WMD materials FOR MONEY AND OIL CONTRACTS. The U.S. will PROVE just how useless the UN really is as an institution that is supposed to help prevent war (like maybe enforcing their resolutions against a regime that not only has WMDs but has actually used WMDs against Iraqis).
And the only people who get thrown into “gulags” in America will be the people who really have been busy trying to kill Americans (and probably Europeans too). As I said, I’ve yet to hear about peace protesters being arrested.
Get used to it, America-haters. We Americans going to win this war, and the “moronic cowboy” you hate and loathe and despise so much is going to be re-elected in 2004. Deal with it, because we stopped caring long ago about how much you hate us and wish us dead.
This sickens me, I mean you all live in a land of the free, and have all your great power, and everbody is supposedly “jealous” of you. This isn’t true, the only people dying to get into America are the people that are living in poverty stricken 3rd world nations, or students trying to get a degree for a decent job.
I can’t remember who’s post it was but they gave a few links to articles about certain senators and people of authority talking about supporting demonstrations. I mean this is why the media is so great, let some people lie to make themselves look better, broadcast it so everybody with a tv can listen to it, and all of a sudden you look good or you make people feel better.
I got a news flash for you (sorry about the pun) but the Media lies, in fact in the U.S. you can hear a lot of BS from news channels. It’s interesting how afraid Americans can become just by watching the news or being told of a big “threat”, watch out! A 6ft tall black man might come and steal your TV! Mexicans might rape your sister, raging mobs of arabs might assasinate your President!
i’m proud to be european.
europe seems to have a more intellectual enlightened approach not just to iraq but also issues relating to digital rights, privacy, software patents.
i don’t often say this but those folks over the atlantic really are thick low-culture brain-death hedonistic short-sighted greedy blood-and-oil-drenched rednecks.
catch up with the rest of the civilised cultured world.
I’ve to react. I’m European, i am French and extremely proud to be. I _cannot_ accept what you say about French and German governments. I have to remind you that 80%, yes i say 80% of French people agree with the behaviour of the government. In countries whose governments support the USA, the people are against the war. Take a look at the polls that took place in the UK, in Italy and in Spain. You’ll realize how wrong you are!
I’ve to remind you too that Europe doesn’t make war for oil, but the USA does! You didn’t bombs civilians in Afghanistan for democracy, you killed civilians only to get an oil pipe. This is one of the reasons why many people hate the USA. I hope the american government will awake soon or you’ll realize in a few years that you have lost all your allies and you’ll be in bad situation. The USA is creating terrorism with its behaviour!
You _do_ remember that France built a nuclear reactor for Saddam right?
And that France was involved in the mess with Vietnam _long_ before the Americans were?
Or that French companies have heavy investments in the Middle East?
The same can be said about *every* country talked about here. France, Germany, Britain, US, Russia – whatever. Every country has a long history of stupidity, blunders and mistakes that they’ve perpetrated in other countries. Not just the US.
I have mixed feelings about this situation. (Read as I’m not sure if war should be take place or not). What I do know though, is that the Bush administration is using US citizen’s fear to implement every single “Big Brother” law that would not have passed 2 years ago.
In the end I am remineded of a famous quote:
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety”
– Benjamin Franklin
Give it enough time, and these ‘small’ steps will form the basis of something larger and more pervasive.
Somebody kindly explain to a “thick low-culture brain-death hedonistic short-sighted greedy blood-and-oil-drenched redneck” like me should care about the opinions of the socialists in “old Europe” (a.k.a. “the Axis of Weasels,” as it has come to be called).
“Old Europe” voted in the United Nations to impose “serious consequences” on the Iraqi regime should the regime not prove to the UN inspectors that Iraq has indeed divested itself of weapons of mass destruction. The vote was held JUST THREE MONTHS AGO. But now “old Europe” wants to avoid imposing said “serious consequences” and would prefer to pretend to enforce UN resolution 1441 by rushing a couple thousand more inspectors into Iraq, so that the Iraqi regime can play THEM for fools too. Someone on the UN side keeps tipping the Iraqis off about where the inspectors are going, so that the Iraqis can hide everything before the inspectors get there. If you’ll recall, Iraq has MOBILE facilities for producing chemical and biological weapons.
And don’t give me that silly nonsense about this whole war being about oil. That’s crap. Iraq has WMDs, is trying to get its paws on nuclear weapons, aids and abets terrorists, and hates the U.S. That’s reason enough to invade Iraq, and no, the prospect of having a bunch of “cultured” anti-American weasels in Europe hating us a teensy bit more than they do now is not much of a disincentive for us “thick low-culture brain-death hedonistic short-sighted greedy blood-and-oil-drenched rednecks.” (Oh, and you forgot to put “Nazi” into that laundry list of insults — but then, what with the anti-Semitism that seems to be sweeping Europe, I guess that one would have been a bit much.)
I guess I forgot to clarify I’m not an american hater I just dispise the way the US is going to hell in a handbasket with the new laws and no way to stop it.
There is no reason to attack iraq now as Hussein does what the UN asked. What makes you mad is that the world doesn’t let you aggress a country. Hussein might have WMDs? And? The USA have this kind of weapons also. As Bush is a _very_ aggressive man, he kills his own people (do you remember, death penalty!), he makes awful laws and he threatens other countries, Europe should consider bombing the USA unless the USA dostroys all its weapons. Seems fair to me!
If bush would put all this money and resources that he is allocating towards a military effort(an other deficit digging persuits), into alternate fuels/fuel cells, couldn’t the US just tell iraq to keep their oil. Iraq would never get to be that large of a threat.
Why are we still using combustion engines anyway? Its well over a 100 year technology.
In USA ->Liberal = Comunist marxist , ultra leftwing.
In Europe -> Liberal = Conservative, ultra rightwing.
No wonder we don’t trust /understand each other.
Guys.. GUYS ! Relax,
The USA is on the verge of a political and ideological breakthrough of all times.
After several thousand years, the ancient idea of Democracy is finally about to be put to rest in favor of a NEW and vastly IMPROVED system :
*** “Demotyrany”
America is pushing the frontier of phylisophical and political thought… This is history in the making !