In their on-going GNU/Linux review series, most OfB have received much criticism from loyal users of the various distributions we have covered. Timothy R. Butler notes that many of the issued raised by those who commented on the series were cases of “knee-jerk” reaction and ponders how such reactions impact the community at large and its appearance to outsiders.Tim writes: “[…] The unfortunate thing is, while these people are certainly a minority, they are very vocal. What they consider (I suspect) a noble attempt to protect their distribution’s or application’s name is really damaging GNU/Linux as a whole. Often one of the things that scares those considering this operating system more than anything else is the community’s attitude. They don’t want to be associated with a bunch of people that simply exist to attack anything they happen to disagree with. […]”
Our take: Timothy, inflamatory critisism is not a “quality” found just among the Linux crowd. Speaking from experience, the Mac hard-core crowd is not any better. Neither the Amiga equivelant one. What you need to remember is that there are good apples too among the bad ones. There are readers who would always appreciate your writtings. From your critics, only take their contructive/fair/logical critisism, and /dev/null the inflamatory rest. That way, you can at least save your sanity when being a writer who reports on OS software.
Remember: The main reason people flame with great zealotry is because they don’t want to accept the fact that they might have being wrong on the discussed subject all along. However, when the author does write something really wrong, people will just email you and correct you, in a pretty friendly way actually. But when you are right, this is when they will flame you with all their passion, just because they don’t want to be reminded of their own wrong choices on the subject. It is only ‘natural’ really. And if they flame you from all fronts, then you are truly right, so hold on to your opinions. Everyone’s got an opinion anyway…
If only everybody could be a perfect comunity like BeOS. Everybody is clear headed here with no bias! LOL ok ok hehe just kidding.
“Another frequent response that demonstrates an attitude throughout the community that turns people off … ”
Something in this article and on that site which turns me off is the hijacked naming scheme: GNU/Linux. The least they could do is respect the naming a distribution has decided for itself. “Debian GNU/Linux” is then fine, but there is no such “Redhat GNU/Linux.”
Of course they’re free to refer to things however they want (and further contribute to confusion and intellectual dissonence), but to borrow a phrase from that article:
“… having the right doesn’t always make it right.”
Wow, this is getting pretty abstract. An article criticising criticism of articles. At some level, I can see where the author is saying. I read his review of RedHat 8, and I found it very good. However, the author clearly didn’t pay very much attention to the fact that the “Nullization” of KDE was a minefield, and seemed surprised when he got his leg blown off. The comments, while they were certainly a valid opinion, lacked some tact (which is a fault, unfortunately, demonstrated by most tech-types) and could have been framed more subtley. The real issue, though, is that for every good review, there are five bad ones. Just take the media player review that was posted here awhile ago. The author had no clue what he was doing, and every single one of his criticisms could be quickly rejected as either factually incorrect or overly harsh (such as faulting Xine and MPlayer for their cryptic GUIs even though that problem is endemic with *all* media players, including the most popular ones). For the most part, the reasonable counter-complainers are not reacting to informed, well-written criticism, but to off-the-cuff, poorly researched attempts at criticism. I think the main problems with these articles break down into a few catagories:
1) People who try to use Linux like Windows. They complain when something in Linux doesn’t work the same way it does in Windows. Take, for example, the command line. A command line is *not* inherently hard to use, especially given a walkthrough. Before Win 3.x came out, people used DOS. Regular people. Office workers. People like my dad (who has trouble operating our DVD player
I’m not saying that editing /etc/fstab is easier than the GUI equivilent, of course, but I do hold that, for example, “emerge xmms” is easier than hunting down an .exe on http://www.winamp.com, and clicking next a million times to install it. The former is quick, direct, and requires zero user intervention. The latter exposes three system-level details (optional modules, install path, and start-menu path) that the user has no need to know about. Heck, even my 12-year-old brother wishes that he could use emerge in Windows 
Why do people think the latter is easier? Because that’s the way it’s done in Windows. Contrary to what Windows users think, their way is not necessarily the right way. It’s akin to the sterotypical “ugly American” who thinks that the American way is the only way and shoves that in other peoples’ faces.
2) People who get in over their head. A while ago, a newbie tried to review Gentoo and complained it was too hard. The media-player reviewer tried to install the package manually instead of going through RedHat Network. People complained that setting up audio in Debian was too hard. There are certain things in the Linux world that are off-limits to newbies. Complaining when no newbie alternative exists is valid. Complaining when you can’t figure out the guru version is just stupid.
3) People who are careless and lazy. These are the people who can’t be bothered to open up (the wonderfully integrated) help systems in GNOME or KDE, or won’t take 2 seconds to do a Google search. If these same people complained about a problem in Windows, the first thing they’d be told to do is either check Windows Help, or go to a Windows site like CNet or ZDNet about their problem. Then there are the people who don’t bother to check their facts before writing. I have in fact made this exact mistake. In 1999, I wrote an article criticizing Linux (and I got flamed for it
in which I stated that X uses TCP/IP locally, and was slow because it was client server. Well, apparently it doesn’t, and benchmarks show that it’s not. Whoops. But if I hadn’t gotten flamed like I did, I never would have known that I was wrong.
4) People with unrealistic expections. If it isn’t easier or better on Windows, there is slim chance that it will be easier or better on Linux. For example, media players *everywhere* are ugly. Complaining that Xine or MPlayer is useless in light of the fact that Windows Media Player and Winamp are ugly.
5) People who are rude. This is the kicker. The media-player guy deserves every flame he got on /. because he was a jerk. Linux software is by and large done by volunteers, and they are entitled to a level of respect that a large corporation like Microsoft isn’t. When you insult Microsoft, it’s not personal. You’re insulting a combination of several thousand programmers, layers of management, and a unified coporate facade. When you insult say the Xine or MPlayer developers, you’re personally insulting half a dozen people who deeply care about what they’re doing. Criticizing their work is one thing (everybody needs to respond well to healthy criticism), insulting it is another. How do you be respectful? First, it’s all about tone. If you sound like some bitching ungrateful teenager, you’ll be treated like one. If you respectfully point out problems, you’ll almost certainly get a good response. Second, avoid stereotypes. Programmers don’t like to hear the “programmers don’t understand users” line any more than black people like to hear any stereotype attributed to them. Lastly, be constructive. These people are doing this for *you* not for their own benifet. The more precise and on-topic your comments are, the better they can make their software, and the closer it comes to being a viable alternative to proprietory software for *you*.
PS> Don’t even think of characterizing me as one of those “Linux is perfect” people. Just check http://www.softpanorama.org/OSS/bad_linux_advocacy_faq.shtml and http://www.osopinion.com/Opinions/RayinerHashem/RayinerHashem1.html and others. Linux has improved a whole lot since I wrote that article in 1999, and I’m now a convert. But I can still name a dozen things off the bat (*cough* noatun *cough*) that still suck about KDE.
I would like to see a study on this behavior, perhaps, maybe not just on linux people, but on how communities vary from distros and perhaps even operating systems. Perhaps if we could understand it more, then we could find a solution.
>When you insult Microsoft, it’s not personal
This is what people don’t understand, including you it seems. It might not ‘look’ or ‘sound’ personal to you. But for the Microsoft employee (all the thousands of them), it is. This is one of the reasons why I oppose MS bashing over here (except the fact that OSNews is committed to _all_ OSes). Because these programmers over there who happen to read OSNews, also have a heart and they eat food and drink water, as the rest of us do.
The fact that the XINE/mplayer/Apple developers might be a smaller team in numbers, so their bashing might sound more “personal”, doesn’t make it any different at all. As Picard said in a Star Trek movie:
“How many people does it take Admiral, before it becomes wrong? 5, 500, 1000, a million?”
Eugenia is right. We are all human and should be treated as so.
Well said, mate.
There seem to be two issues here. Many people have focussed on the specifics, which is to say the spikiness of discussion forums either as support or review. I think that the thing to remember is: people trying to teach others how to use windows are equally spiky – but they do it face to face. Dealing with this stuff over the net carries a far greater risk that people will get misinterpreted either in their requests for help or their answers.
On a broader scale, the stuff that has been coming out in the last few days really leads to despair. Linux seems to have come in for a real self-kicking in the last few days in terms of its whole sense of mission.
I have wondered what the backlash is all about – things were going great guns, but then the atmosphere has soured just recently: in particular Mandrake wobbling; and Lindows getting so territorial that it practically peed in all four corners of that desktop summit.
I think that for many of use Northern-hemisphere types, the winter blues are kicking in a bit. All I would say is – try and remember the very first time you heard about Linux. What did it mean to you? Why did it get you excited? Where was it when you started? Where is it now?
And the truth is, not only will you remember what it’s all about for you (which might not be the same as for others, but there’s room for everyone), and you’ll also realise how far it has come, and how quickly it will continue to develop.
And no, I don’t believe that petulant footstamping about video-software is the way forward.
I had a pretty nasty wake up call a few days ago when I realized that when Apple says “any Radeon” in requirements for QE, what they actually mean is “any highly overpriced, lacking features ‘Mac Edition’ Radeon.” Often times it’s the little things which suddenly turn a happy computing experience into a major annoyance: the big things are the ones we flame people for pointing out.
Of course now I’m thinking of commodity x86 hardware, and Debian (GNU/Linux), and chances are that if I used Debian more regularly I would be putting the smack down anytime anyone mentions RPM, or linuxconf in a favorable manner (very bad memories).
Eugenia: Can we bash Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, and MS’s marketing division?
> Can we bash Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, and MS’s marketing division?
No. Unless they stole your little army men or your teddy bear.
Look, I can understand why people get defensive. People who choose Linux are normally a)more technically proficient, and b)have a passion about computers not shared by the general computing public. A user makes a choice about what he/she likes, and tends to stick with that. When some interloper comes in and criticizes, it’s unwelcomed. The guy who wrote this article doesn’t seem to realize that. I’d bet that you’d get the same kinds of reactions among Windows developers…
Still, the bottom line is, Linux is not as easy to configure and install as Windows. Once you get used to the way one distro does it, it becomes routine, but to an outsider, it’s still like learning a foreign language. I use Debian, but it took me a bit to get it to install the first time. The same could be said about OS/2. When you’re used to doing things the one true way, whether that be OS/2, BeOS, Debian GNU/Linux, RedHat, Mandrake (fave of my *nix Users Group), or Windows, everything else is wrong. 🙂
I fail to get excited about reviews anymore. They’re superficial by their very nature. I’ve come to find that you have to use an OS everyday for about a month to get used to it. When I installed GNU/Hurd for the first time, I didn’t see the point to it…..I do now.
So, when an outsider makes a review, read it, take it with a grain of salt, and see if there’s any truth there. If the same things keep coming up over and over again (the RH mp3 thing, fonts in most distros…..), address those problems.
Let me clarify myself. I don’t claim it is correct to insult Microsoft’s programmers, because it isn’t. However, Microsoft is an entity in and of itself, exisiting apart from the programmers and the people that run it. Indeed, the legal definition of a corporation describes an entity that has an individual existance apart from the people that run it. Insulting the corporation is not an insult to the people that run it, but the overall direction, vision, and actions of the corporation. The specific point I’m trying to deal with is reviewers who try to treat OSS projects as corporations and OSS software as “products.” Maximum PC, for example, will regularly say that a product or company sucks. It is an entirely valid action, because it indicates to the company that their product has been rejected in the marketplace. In fact, it is extremely useful, because many companies, such as Compaq, improved their products after being told enough times that they sucked. While the criticism may be a bitter pill to swallow, it is tempered by the fact that corporations release products for their personal gain. If a corporation wants your money, they have to deliver. With OSS software, there is no product, and there is no marketplace. There is just a group of people trying to make some software for the good of other computer users. Thus, taking a hard-edged approach to reviews (as many computer magazines do) is not appropriate.
“> Can we bash Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, and MS’s marketing division?
No. Unless they stole your little army men or your teddy bear.”
They did, in that they took all the fun out of computing. I really
resent being a crime victim.
As for the flamers, these are there for other platforms too, not just
for Linux. They might even be the same people.
I can totally agree with him in everything he says in his two posts! It’s like one of the best comments I ever read. I think he sees the things right as they are and formulates it very clearly…I’m a fan 😉
People who review things actaully make for stuff to read on the net
The knee-jerk voceriferious reaction of a number of people in the Linux community to any hint of criticism distances many from trying Linux….they simply dont want to associate with such individuals or communities that harbor them. The same reaction occurs when members of the Linux community go ballistic asking “who the hell is Len Kleinrock” and “How does he get off saying he invented the Internet” (the posts in question on slashdot do not appear in a search for Kleinrock…editted out?). Similarly the anticipatory scheduler written for FreeBSD has been adopted by Linux. The report on kerneltrap.org does not mention FreeBSD at all.
The Not Invented Here attitude combined with failure to credit others by the Linux community hinders Linux world domination.
I never bothered commenting on Timothy R. Butler’s reviews, but I have always held the opinion that if you call something a review it should hold some real technical basis not just be a editorial where Timothy express his views about Red Hat’s changes to KDE.
<P>
I think that if you are doing a distribution review series you should write down a list of factors to review it by; not just how perky you think the installer is.
<P>
When I wrote some distro reviews a few years back I had made myself such a list, including under the hood issues such as how up-to-date and well working are the libraries included? And even some none technical stuff like ‘how well does the distribution keep their path clear of properietary add-ons.
<P>
Of course doing this is much more work than just writing pure editorial reviews of the type: ‘Distro X has a l33t installer and uses my favourite desktop’. Or ‘Distro Y is not supporting my favourite desktop in a way I like, so they are 3vil’.
>>When you insult Microsoft, it’s not personal
>This is what people don’t understand, including you it >seems. It might not ‘look’ or ‘sound’ personal to you. But >for the Microsoft employee (all the thousands of them), it >is. This is one of the reasons why I oppose MS bashing over >here (except the fact that OSNews is committed to _all_ >OSes). Because these programmers over there who happen to >read OSNews, also have a heart and they eat food and drink >water, as the rest of us do.
>The fact that the XINE/mplayer/Apple developers might be a >smaller team in numbers, so their bashing might sound more >”personal”, doesn’t make it any different at all. As Picard >said in a Star Trek movie:
>”How many people does it take Admiral, before it becomes >wrong? 5, 500, 1000, a million?”
I feel people do have more right to deliver harsh criticism (but still respect in most cases) towards a corporation like microsoft because 1) you pay for their product and 2) you agree to terms with them (EULA). Once a corporation gets powerful and abuses its position its easy to lose respect for them. To be honest I’ve lost respect for microsoft, just as everyone here lost respect for Enron as a corporation… sometimes they cross the line.
It is still benificial to constructively criticize OSS but keep in mind that its all in their spare time, they aren’t receiving money for working on their project, and there is no cosumer-provider relationship that exists in “normal” software that you pay for. So its a lot easier to take offense to insults.
If I volunteer to rake someone’s yard and do a poor job they wont be mad at more or speak poorly of me, but if that same person hired someone to rake their yard and that person did a poor job that’d be rightfully mad at that person.
Seems you left out the windows hardcore flamers in “Our Take” 🙂 It’s not because most of the windows users, pretty much don’t give a shit about computers, that there aren’t any people who are fanatical about their windows.
The original article was not trying to make a point that most Linux users (or advocates) are rabid flamers, just that the knee-jerk “you didn’t do it right” attitude among a select, but predictably vocal minority was a problem. He never argued that it was particular to Linux either. To quote the article:
The unfortunate thing is, while these people are certainly a minority, they are very vocal.
But by rephrasing (or simply missing) the original article’s point you get to argue against a much simpler point (and then go on to be an apologist for such zealotry anyway).
And this “Linux World Domination” talk is really juvenile.
Of course they took out the “fun” out of computing…. computers were not made for fun, but for accurate calculations to kill some Germans and Serbians. Plus, do they care about fun? No, they care about making money selling software to people needing to do their work… and have fun (games) 🙂
Please…. stop this from becoming a anti-MS vs. pragmatic vs. pro-MS debate! We already had one just three days ago.
It seems like the reviewers faults in some places they forget that they should report facts not opinions. Once you are in the realm of opinion chaos rains because there are no facts.
If reviewers sitcked to the facts instead of getting personal then things would be different.
If someone says this doesn’t work and I don’t know why they will get a lot less flames than someone who says this doesn’t work it sucks etc.
But then again some people just need to get up from their computer and go outside and take a walk.
The title is very very very misleading. Not all penguin zoologist and penguins themselves are zealots! And certainly, they don’t email authors of editorials! (it’s a joke, a lame one I guess…)
Obviously not all Linux users are zealots, but overall Linux users do come across as very defensive. Certainly when complaining about problems I’ve had with Linux, I have to go through what I’ve written and make sure that I soften it and put in as much praise for Linux as I can. Otherwise everything I’ve said will be dismissed as a troll, even if I’m talking about well known problems. In the past I’ve posted some harsh rants about Windows and Mac OS problems without that reaction.
Even mild criticism of Linux ease of use on the Linux newsgroups and some other boards tends to receive a few personal attacks. When you’ve spent a week trying to get something working in Linux, being called a retard and told to RTFM doesn’t give a good impression of the community. There do seem to be some Linux users who primarily use the OS so that they can insult people for not being as 7337 as them.
I read this on usenet, it’s interesting to see a review from another point of view, to give an impression of how many Linux distro reviews appear to people who use it.
“A friend has been pestering me for a while to try out this OS called ‘Microsoft Windows XP’. I think this is the first release out of this OS ‘Windows’ that is not an alpha, but the numbering scheme (1.0,2.0,3.0,3.11,95/98/4.0/2000/XP) makes it a little hard to tell. It’s written by an computing enthusiast called William Gates, and for a first try, it’s not all bad.
The installation was easy enough, though it’s surprising that it offers only two file systems, and could not recognise any other kinds, I guess there will be support for more file systems in the future, though as it’s intended market must be hobby or home use, there is no real need for journalled file systems. It took about five reboots during installation to get things working, and it was annoying to have to download drivers for most cards in my computer. It’s a shame they are not included with the OS like I’m used to. Perhaps in the final beta release?
The install (without any applications) came to over a gigabyte, so large that there must be still a great deal of debugging code left in, and as there was no kernel or application source code included, it was impossible to recompile smaller versions. I suppose it will be included on the CD once William has slimmed down the OS enough to leave space. There were a few little bugs that froze the computer, but it crashed no more than twice a day, so if it keeps improving, a few years from now it could be as stable as Menuetos or even an early Linux kernel!
There is only one window manager included, called ‘Explorer’. Apart from not having many configuration options it was quite fast and easy to use, impressive work!I’m sure that as the OS matures there will be support for other window managers, as only one is not really enough for the vast differences in people’s requirements, and the speeds of their computers.
It looks very colorful, which my child liked, though he said he found it a little patronising, and got very annoyed at often having to re-boot after installing games.
WindowsXP can be downloaded from many places on the internet, and it’s a very brave first attempt by William at a real OS, I’m sure once the issues of file systems, lack of support for other architectures, no real multi user support, no alternative window managers and general stability are solved, it will provide your child with many hours of fun as an educational toy. William will no doubt be glad of any help he can get to finish his project, so please Email him with your support and suggestions.”
A review is just reality as the author perceives it.
For example – If Microsoft makes a modified version of Java that is flawed/broken according to SUN. They argue over the legalities and interpretations of the licenses etc and end up in court. Many news sites report MS has a history of undermining competition. MS and its supporters argue the changes were much needed improvements.
RedHat makes a modified version of KDE that is flawed/broken according to KDE. Most say that the GPL allows it and it may or may not be OK to damage/change it in anyway RH sees fit. Many reviewers say RH has a history of anti-KDE behaviour. RH supporters argue the changes were much needed improvements.
How would you report the above stories? What are the facts?
And lastly, could the GPL be used to undermine competing projects in the future, as the push for dominant apps and desktop supremacy demand a weeding out of choice?
Anyway just another 2 cents worth of opinions. Don’t take it too seriously J
rob
There is an attitude out there that really bothers me, and that is when people say things like Rayiner’s comment above about “people who are lazy or careless” when it comes to getting to know Linux. I’m a dual-boot man (Win98 and Mandrake) because there are apps I have for Windows that I use (both personally and professionally) that I can’t get for Linux. I do, though, know Linux well enough to use it with a fair amount of ease. As an insider, I feel I can say with certainty that Linux will not advance much farther without becoming more GUI-intensive and intuitive, like Windows and Mac OS are–though please note that I DO NOT believe the have to actually emulate Windows or Mac OS, just be quicker and easier to learn. Why? Because like most, I’m one of those people who just want to USE their computers; we’re not interested in learning the OS from top to bottom. Any Linux distro can be set up to work both ways, as everyone here knows, so what’s the problem with making Linux easier for the majority of us? Are we also “lazy” because we can’t rebuild our own transmissions?
People who try to use Linux like Windows. They complain when something in Linux doesn’t work the same way it does in Windows.
In that case, why not put a friggin’ notice on the install screen that reads:
WARNING: If you attempt to use Linux like Windows, you will probably find it awkward, frustrating, cumbersome, and annoying to use.
Press any key to continue …
It would certainly save people a lot of trouble.
Take, for example, the command line. A command line is *not* inherently hard to use, especially given a walkthrough. Before Win 3.x came out, people used DOS.
And your point is? Back in the day, people used to solder their computers together, and some even programmed in assembly or built programs in BASIC. Regular people. The difference is now days, we don’t have to do those things anymore.
but I do hold that, for example, “emerge xmms” is easier than hunting down an .exe on http://www.winamp.com, and clicking next a million times to install it … Why do people think the latter is easier?
I could write a few paragraphs on this, but the main reason is that to do the latter, you don’t have to build the OS up from scratch in order to get it working.
People who get in over their head. A while ago, a newbie tried to review Gentoo and complained it was too hard.
Ok, first you go on about how much easier emerge is to use than the Windows way, but then readily admit (indirectly) that the distro emerge is used with isn’t meant for newbies. So then, I ask you … what good is it for people who are just now making the jump to Linux? You can’t use it until you are familiar enough with Linux to take on Gentoo. But by that point, you probably wouldn’t need it anyway.
Contrary to what Windows users think, their way is not necessarily the right way.
No, that’s where you’re wrong. The way I have been doing it has worked just fine for the past 8+ years, so what I do is right and what you do is wrong. What developers must do (if they expect/want me to pay attention) is to adapt Linux to respond well to the way I’m used to working – it CANNOT and MUST NOT be the other way around.
This is the mentality of most Windows users. You can’t expect us to ‘jump ship’ and completely change how we’re used to working. Some of us know that how Linux does some things is superior to the way we do them, but some of us don’t give a damn. I’m not suggesting that you hvae to clone Windows, but I AM suggesting that you have to make it similar enough (in ALL respects) so that those of us crossing over will feel right at home.
People with unrealistic expections. If it isn’t easier or better on Windows
Basically, what I expect of Linux is to be faster, easier to use, more powerful, and better than Windows in every possible way. This is what I keep hearing from the most vocal Linux supporters (ie – zealots), so this is what I expect. If this is not a realistic expection, then please tell the zealots to keep their damn mouths shut. Start a massive campaign and make every attempt to flame any zealot who would suggest otherwise – silence your own ignorant supporters before you start in on anybody else.
People who are rude. This is the kicker. The media-player guy deserves every flame he got on /. because he was a jerk. Linux software is by and large done by volunteers ….
Yes, people are going to react harshly towards Linux. Why? Because those of us that choose Windows over Linux are constantly told that we are unintelligent ‘sheep’ and a slave to ‘Father William’, and we are made to feel inferior because of the OS we use, and we’re constantly told year-after-year how much more ‘superior’ Linux is and that it’s finally ‘ready’.
So it’s like every year I try it and every year I find out that it’s only a little less awkward, cumberson, and frustrating to use than it was last year, and I kinda get pissed because these people keep wasting my time and won’t shut up about ‘God’s gift to OSs.’
If you want to silence some of the harsh criticism towards Linux, the entire community (including the zealots) need to come to grips with what Linux does well and what it does not, instead of pumping up would-be users with empty promises and unrealistic expectations. Put up a website listing the pros and cons of Linux. I think those of us who are rational-minded realize that some things are better done in Linux and some things aren’t. Make a list of these things and let people make informed decisions on what Linux is especially good at and what Windows/Mac is especially good at. And don’t put in incidious bullshit like “Windows [2K/XP] crashes all the time.” Those of us who use the OS know exactly how often in crashes (never in my case) and we’re not impressed by your false advertising.
On bad reviews:
People need to understand that those doing Linux reviews aren’t going in it with the technical prowess of a kernel hacker. I think most just want to know – “Does it suck, or does it not?” I for one understand that almost anything can be made to work in Linux with the proper amount of cussing and voodoo, but if it doesn’t work out of the box, I don’t care, and I don’t think most other ‘would-be’ users do either.
As for using the OS for a month to make an informed decision, in my case, I’m not sure that’s possible. Once I had the OS installed, I realized that it lacked about half the apps I use on a regular basis in Win32, and that was all I needed to know. And actually, if I knew that in advance, I wouldn’t have bothered to install it in the first place. Because the only thing I care about is this:
Does it run the apps I want to use, and can I run them without the OS getting in my way?
If the answer to either of the above is no, I don’t care how ‘elagent’ or powerful the OS is – it’s simply useless to me. I don’t care about kernels, file systems, window managers, souce code, or anything of the sort.
The best I could do was to reboot into Linux and use it in my spare time? But why should I, since it’s not usable to me in the first place? Some people woudl argue “Well, there are apps in Linux not supported in Windows” and to that, I wholeheartedly agree. And if that is the case for you, then use Linux – but doen’t expect the rest of us to do the same.
One final note: People, don’t bash the programmers of ANY OS. If you want to bash the programs if you feel that they suck, I feel you have every right to do so, even the free programs. But, IMHO, personal attacks against the programmers themselves is unnecessary and uncalled for. Remember, they’re usually not the ones making all the noise!
I don’t have a problem bashing Microsoft for what it has done wrong. Calling them on lying, FUD, and being a untrustworthy vendor that customers should try to keep at arm’s length is fair, if harsh. Calling them on the horrid design decision to store registry entries in one big file is fine. Even calling MS on their past examples of poor integrity, such as their games with DR-DOS and STAC Technologies, is fine, since MS has continued to act is questionable ways and shown no sign of attempts to reform its corporate character. (Contrast this with IBM, which itself has played games at least as ugly as MS, but mostly got over it.)
However, name calling, like referring to Microsoft as M$, or Windows as Windoze, is silly. Calling Microsoft on the instability of older products that have been superseded, such as Win95/98 is questionable. Making exaggerated claims about the bad quality of MS products is bogus.
In short, if a developer working for Microsoft got mad at some MS-bashing remarks because they were an infantile distortion, that’s bad. If a developer working for Microsoft got mad at some MS-bashing remarks because they were harsh but on the mark, that’s another story.
If you can’t say anything nice, at least say something accurate.
Well said. Two problems with the Linux communtiy that hang like a millstone around their necks.
1. Attitude
2. Usability
Attitude: If the Linux community cares about “Linux World Domination”, they should probably learn to be nicer and a little less elitist. The current state of the Linux community reminds me of a bunch of teenagers hanging around outside of a 7-11, cursing at anyone who looks at them sideways, while congratulating each other on how cool they are for telling an old lady to go f**k herself.
2. Usability: Realize that in order to take over the world, any OS will have to be much easier to use than even OSX or Windows is now-my father, who is an airline pilot(not a technical illiterate), still can’t install a program on the home Win98 box to save his life. Imagine the poor guy trying to use any current Linux distro. Not gonna happen.
Respect and simplicity will lead you to that holy land of “Linux World Domination”. If someone can come up with a good multi-track recording program and audio editor, I’ll help by switching!
Respect and simplicity will lead you to that holy land of “Linux World Domination”. If someone can come up with a good multi-track recording program and audio editor, I’ll help by switching!
Well, you pointed out two, and hinted at the last one:
Respect, simplicity, and a good multi-track recording program
Well, the third is too general but more specifically, more high-quality apps.
I am not a Linux zealot – it is not even my main OS. I’m not a flamer either. But, I did let Butler have it regarding his review of RH 8. I said that, in my opinion, RH 8 had raised the bar for UI. I did not mind so much the things he said about the distro, but he had his grading scheme at the end of the review and that was what was outrageous. The grades he gave RH 8 were so bad it made it look like a piece of trash that had been thrown together in a couple of weeks. They were way, way off base and I said he had really misrepresented RH 8 with these grades. And I still believe he did.
Well the initial review did suck. If he spent half as much time actually reviewing the distro as he did whining about KDE he might not have gotten so much hatemail. From that review I have no idea how well Gnome works(the intended default desktop) or how things like OpenOffice work.
As far are Eugenia’s continued linux bashing which seems to be in almost every article what can I say? When your negative about linux, EVERY SINGLE TIME, then your gonna get people who pick up on it. Really its at the point now where I don’t even have to read the little summary. Like I said before If you really like bashing linux this much please change your site to a more appropriate name.
Is linux easy to use? No. Is it ready for the average home user? No. Do we need yet another article soley designed to piss on either linux or its users? What do you think?
They deserve all the scorn and derision that is heaped on
them.
But I will give them this:
They earned it the old fashioned way,one bully move at a time.
It is quite an accomplisment. I don’t think there is another
Company that generates more animus.
> Do we need yet another article soley designed to piss on either linux or its users?
Yes. Because I have seen results with this strategy (Synaptic 0.31 is just one example). And I am not sitting my ass doing nothing. I suggest UI changes. Have you read my articles?
I STAYED up to 3 AM last night, finishing up the mockup for the Lycoris/Ark control panel. If I was just a basher, I wouldn’t do that. But I did. I am critical, because I know I am _right_, but most of the time, I DO provide suggestions and show the way regarding UI issues and usability.
> I do hold that, for example, “emerge xmms” is easier than hunting down an .exe on http://www.winamp.com, and clicking next a million times to install it.
Ummm… OK. Easier? When I tried this it stopped halfway through compiling due to some arcane error. Same with “emerge apache” and “emerge links”. Geez, I did everything the installer said to and had a working system–it just stops halfway through compilng stuff about 75% of the time. Go figure. I’d rather click through stuff on winamp.com under Windows 2000 and feel assured that I won’t kill something or have the install stop in the middle for something I have no control over.
BTW I’ve tried installing Gentoo more than once. Windows just beats every Linux distro in this matter, whether it’s rpm, apt, or portage.
“Geez, I did everything the installer said to and had a working system–it just stops halfway through compilng stuff about 75% of the time. Go figure. ”
Ok, I figure it’s bad memory or an overheating CPU. Compiling apps is the hardest work your computer will ever do, it will show up problems very quickly that would otherwise only cause the occasional crash or freeze.
I have a machine that would run Win2k ok, but had strange compiler errors when using gentoo. I ran Memtest86 on it and it picked up a number of memory errors. Putting in new ram sorted it out.
Anyway, more on topic, I’m glad another anti-Linux backlash has started, hopefully it will be over in a year or so, like last time.
>>A different view… by Jon G. in response to
>>http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2644
The players:
Group X: Linux software developers who write software for their own use. Have no “desktop Linux” pretensions beyond their own desktop.
Group Y: Linux software developers who write software with “desktop Linux” pretensions.
Group Z: Journalists and pundits.
The story:
Group Y spends a lot of their time and effort creating software for a desktop Linux system. Group X writes software for Group X, not giving a rat’s ass about non-technical end users. Group Z, being true to form (i.e. morons), hypes “desktop Linux” without really understanding Linux or the open-source movement just because it gets them attention/ratings/off. Once they’ve completed hyping “desktop Linux,” the non-technical end-users come along. However, Group Z has failed to educate them about the ACTUAL Linux scene, because Group Z are morons. The non-technical end-users find software written by Group Y as well as that written by Group X. And, they get the different desktop environments written by different factions of Group Y all confused under the rubric of “Linux,” because, well, explaining details doesn’t make good hype.
So, the non-technical end-users have a bad experience because “desktop Linux” hasn’t yet reached the level of maturity of Windows or MacOS, and because they weren’t informed about Linux in general. Group Z then can have a field day, trashing “desktop Linux” in order to get attention/ratings/off, heaping scorn on the hard work of Group Y because of the work of Group X. “Golly gee,” they cry, “We can have it both ways!”
Fucktards.
In that case, why not put a friggin’ notice on the install screen that reads:
WARNING: If you attempt to use Linux like Windows, you will probably find it awkward, frustrating, cumbersome, and annoying to use.
Press any key to continue …
It would certainly save people a lot of trouble.
>>>>>>>>
It’s exactly this attitude that results in people driving SUVs killing themselves because they treat it like a sedan. There is no place in the real world for that kind of attitude.
And your point is? Back in the day, people used to solder their computers together, and some even programmed in assembly or built programs in BASIC. Regular people. The difference is now days, we don’t have to do those things anymore.
>>>>>>>>
Um, I can guarentee you that the average office worker never soldered their computers together. They did, however, use DOS. The command line wasn’t hard back then, and it isn’t hard now. Hell, it’s easier to teach someone to do stuff via the command line because to people not raised on the GUI, communicating with the computer via words is much more natural than point and click. Let’s just say that guiding my little brother through setting up a firewall using the Linux CLI is easier than telling my mom how to startup internet explorer. “Well, you see that little “E” icon?” “Where?” “Somewhere on the screen. Probably on the left side…”
I could write a few paragraphs on this, but the main reason is that to do the latter, you don’t have to build the OS up from scratch in order to get it working.
>>>>>>>>>
I’m not suggesting that people use Gentoo instead. I’m simply citing “emerge” as an easy to use CLI interface.
No, that’s where you’re wrong. The way I have been doing it has worked just fine for the past 8+ years, so what I do is right and what you do is wrong. *additional ranting deleted*
>>>>>>>>>>..
My god! How can they eat that! Those animals! Seriously, though, I couldn’t care less about what you do personally. If you want to be stuck in your ways and don’t want to adapt, then Linux doesn’t need you. At some level, you have to draw the line. I’m all gung-ho about making Linux braindead easy to use, but to change it just because certain people are inflexible, that’s where it has to stop. Since when did being open-minded and ready for new things become a bad thing?
Basically, what I expect of Linux is to be faster, easier to use, more powerful, and better than Windows in every possible way.
>>>>>>>>>>
That’s is certainly reasonable. Expecting media-player designers to not make stupid looking VCR GUIs is not. And here is where we hit this tone thing again. It’s one thing to cite a certain feature you wish some particular software had. It’s another to go on some over-generalized rant that makes you sound like another one of those “I deserve everything, now!” people the world is infected with.
Yes, people are going to react harshly towards Linux. Why? Because those of us that choose Windows over Linux are constantly told that we are unintelligent ‘sheep’ and a slave to ‘Father William’, and we are made to feel inferior because of the OS we use, and we’re constantly told year-after-year how much more ‘superior’ Linux is and that it’s finally ‘ready’.
>>>>>>>>>>
There is a difference between how individuals react and how the press conducts itself. I really don’t expect some random 15-year-old who just found Linux to be mature about how he advocates it. But I do expect a “journalist” who posts an article “reviewing” Linux software to be mature in his writing. If you see a pro-Linux article that calls Windows users “sheep” and “slaves to father William” than that article is in very bad taste. But it does not justify calling the Xine developers “f*tards”
Most of the people who’ve been hyping Linux as an easy to use desktop OS are Linux users IME, not journalists and pundits. Whenever someone asks about Linux ease of use on the Linux boards I’ve seen, there are Linux fans who claim that it’s “just different to Windows, not harder” or tell stories about their 98 year old granny learning Linux in 2 hours. The people who disagree and list genuine problems often get dismissed as trolls.
The Linux magazines I’ve picked up are just as bad, even a couple of years ago they were saying that Linux was easy enough for anyone to use. I remember when the first distributions bundled with KDE were reviewed, it was the Linux fans and magazines who claimed that it made Linux a better desktop OS than Windows. Overall I think mainstream journalists have been more honest and realistic about Linux, few of the general PC mags I’ve read have ignored Linux ease of use issues in their reviews.
It’s inevitable after the hype and enthusiasm for Linux from it’s fans that people are going to be disappointed with it’s immaturity on the desktop. I was certainly bitterly disappointed after trying Mandrake Linux 7.1, the hype from Mandrake, Linux fans and Linux magazine reviews just didn’t match the reality.
The Linux community is certainly guilty of most of what this article describes (as is the Mac, Amiga, BeOS, OS2, and even Windows community). And, yes, it is counterproductive. When somebody launches an emotional tirade, it certainly doesn’t give them any credibility (are you listening JWZ?). However, I can’t help but think this article is a self-serving attempt to rationalize his RedHat review. Just as Linux supporters must recognize Linux’s faults, this author should also recognize the faults of his review. In my opinion, his review was pretty poor, not because it looked badly upon RedHat 8, but because he wasn’t really fair in the review. While his review of the installation process seemed fair, his review of the GUI portion was completely dominated by RedHats “nullifications” of the KDE interface. It doesn’t look like he even attemted to use the Gnome interface which is pretty strange for a “review” of RedHat. He also did very little to justify the final scores he gave (DCDCCD – pretty poor scores). After a second read of the RedHat review, I still came away with the same feeling. It was a poor review that did little to help me in my choosing of a Linux distribution.
I suspect that many of these people that write reviews began their experience with the Linux distribution they are using hoping that their experience with Linux would be a positive one. I’m willing to bet that there are many people that would rather write a positive Linux review than a negative one. I’m like many Windows users who want to see an evolutionary alternative to Windows that doesn’t require us to purchase a new computer and new hardware. Right now Linux isn’t there. I wish it was.
It may be easier to teach someone how to do a task with a CLI, but it certainly isn’t easier to learn how to use a CLI on your own. Changing to a different GUI is trivial compared with learning a new CLI. It probably took me less than half an hour to get comfortable with KDE after being a Mac and Windows user. Even though I was a DOS user for a few years, it took me weeks to get comfortable with the basics of using the Linux CLI. I still keep a notebook of commands next to me when using Linux, as I don’t trust myself not to make mistakes with more complex commands with multiple arguments. Personally I would take the worst GUI I’ve ever used over any command line when I’m trying to get something done.
It’s true most people didn’t have much trouble using DOS, but IME most people didn’t use DOS for anything except loading apps. I worked in an office using DOS based computers, but even back then every effort was made to hide the CLI from the user. There was a menu system to load applications and file management was done with X-Tree, so that users didn’t have to memorize dozens of DOS commands to get things done.
It’s exactly this attitude that results in people driving SUVs killing themselves because they treat it like a sedan. There is no place in the real world for that kind of attitude.
Dude, I’m not saying that people should run Linux like Windows – what I am saying is that people should be WARNED from the beginning not to use Linux like Windows.
Um, I can guarentee you that the average office worker never soldered their computers together. They did, however, use DOS.
The average office worker never soldered their computer together because there wasn’t much use (if any) for those computers in the office. So the average office user never had a need to solder, but ‘regular people’ did it.
If you want to be stuck in your ways and don’t want to adapt, then Linux doesn’t need you.
With whole genres of apps in the Linux world that are either alpha software or completely non-existant, what exactly am I supposed to ‘adapt’ to? Give me the apps I care about and I will adapt. Until then, don’t expect me to just sit here on an unsable OS and wait for the stuff to arrive. Hell, I don’t even like Linux much to begin with.
And here is where we hit this tone thing again. It’s one thing to cite a certain feature you wish some particular software had. It’s another to go on some over-generalized rant that makes you sound like another one of those “I deserve everything, now!” people the world is infected with.
Really, I’ve gone over specifics several times in the past – search the archives.
Since when did being open-minded and ready for new things become a bad thing?
New things? Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t Unix/CLI been around since the stone age??
You people are just hilarious, i mean, any normal rational person knows that diferent operating systems like linux and windows actually complement each other, linux is just a piece of crap desktop operating system as windows is a piece of crap server operating system, but instead of recognizing that and use wich is better for the task, you prefer to troll and flame around to almost a point that it seems that you pick operating systems like you pick football clubs, you remind me of the drunk football maniacs at the local tavern arguing why barcelona f.c. is better than manchester united or a.c milan, i guess the good thing here is that at least you don’t any beer bottles to trow at each other…
You people are just hilarious, i mean, any normal rational person knows that diferent operating systems like linux and windows actually complement each other, linux is just a piece of crap desktop operating system as windows is a piece of crap server operating system
Actually, I agree with you .. I’d never use Windows as a server OS unless forced
What developers must do (if they expect/want me to pay attention) is to adapt Linux to respond well to the way I’m used to working – it CANNOT and MUST NOT be the other way around.
What makes you think most developers care about getting Windows users? Do you think MPlayer and Xine developers care that you are used to WinAmp/WMP/whatever? Besides, it goes to show how much people aren’t willing to change their ways in order to live a better life.
If you take a man from a slum (not saying Windows is the slum) and drop him into a posh 5-star penthouse… gues what? That penthouse, after a year or so, would look, smell and feel like a slum.
I’m not suggesting that you hvae to clone Windows, but I AM suggesting that you have to make it similar enough (in ALL respects) so that those of us crossing over will feel right at home.
The first part you said that you don’t have to clone Windows, and then the second part you say clone Windows. Isn’t that contradicting? Where do you draw the line?
Basically, what I expect of Linux is to be faster, easier to use, more powerful, and better than Windows in every possible way.
Then expect to be disapointed. Yes, it may be more powerful and faster in many areas, but certainly not easier to use and in many way not all that better than Windows. It really depends on what you do. If you are, for example, a AutoCAD user – guess what? You would be dissapointed with Linux.
So in other words, it is impossible to have a product that is faster, easier to use, more powerful and better than Windows in every possible way. Everyone have their own needs. For me, 2/3 of the time, my needs are best fulfiled with Windows, 1/3 is with Linux.
If this is not a realistic expection, then please tell the zealots to keep their damn mouths shut.
Rayiner’s point wasn’t that zealots are right and all. If you are dumb enough to listen to ANY zealot, you are just that, dumb.
and I kinda get pissed because these people keep wasting my time and won’t shut up about ‘God’s gift to OSs.’
Well, to point out that most key developers of Linux are either free thinkers or athiest…..
If there is a bunch of zealots that rave on how cool and majestic their OS is, they should not be replied with a rude, underinformed, extremely short, inflamatory “review”, should they? What’s the point then?
the entire community (including the zealots) need to come to grips with what Linux does well and what it does not
Most Linux users and their fans know what Linux does and do not do. Zealots are a very very vocal minority. Most of the time is it those people facing a mid-life crisis or just entered puberty.
Put up a website listing the pros and cons of Linux.
That would be impossible. My pro may be your con. Plus Linux differs from distribution to distribution. Just say I can list one of the pros is apt-get, what about Red hat and Slackware?
I think those of us who are rational-minded realize that some things are better done in Linux and some things aren’t.
I think those of use that are rational-minded already realize that. Most of the so-call “rational minded” guys don’t care about debating endlessly on OSNews.
but if it doesn’t work out of the box, I don’t care
Sometimes, after a amount of conigfiguring/ banging around the sides, Linux can be a better solution than Windows. Sometimes, it is just not worth it. You are the consumer. You must make informed decissions yourself. Linux isn’t a commercial entity, they can’t help you to make that decission.
And actually, if I knew that in advance
Actually, you should know in advance because information of what apps that are available or not isn’t a secret available only to Linux users.
Remember, they’re usually not the ones making all the noise!
I wish you had realize that in your post. You put the blame of a small tiny weeny minority of Linux users on all Linux users.
I know some Windows users who are absolutely lazy, would that make all Windows users lazy? Generalization is wrong. As for informed choices, only you would know what’s best for you. Take some time to research. If your research shows that Linux is NOT for you, guess what? Save yourself the frustration and disaapointment and skip it. However, if you find that Linux potentially can save you time, and make your more productive, there are many ways to test it out.
For example, using VirtualPC/VMWare. Or one of those CD Linux (Knoppix) Or installing in a seperate partition. Stuff like that.
For you, IIRC, it is audio apps. Guess what? Linux sucks in professional audio, so keep your sticking butt out of Linux until it gets really awesomely good in professional audio. If your niche is in photography, keep your ass out of Linux because it is not worth it. If you are running a office that require little special applications and need to replace all the office computers – then Linux is a smart choice, with thin clients and so on. If you are running a web server, again Linux may be a smart choice. If you are a 3D studio, yet again, Linux may be a smart choice for your renderfarm, maybe even your workstations.
the arbiter: If the Linux community cares about “Linux World Domination”, they should probably learn to be nicer and a little less elitist.
Most Linux users don’t quite care about Linux world domination, me included. We just care on what gives the most. For me, since I’m a high school student, that would be what gives me more fun. They are a silent (mostly) majority. Then vocal minority is the zealots, who stop at nothing just to convince you to move to Linux.
For example, when you say you are a user of Photoshop, they would say “Switch to Linux and use GIMP”. Ignore them.
the arbiter: Usability: Realize that in order to take over the world, any OS will have to be much easier to use than even OSX or Windows is now-my father, who is an airline pilot(not a technical illiterate), still can’t install a program on the home Win98 box to save his life. Imagine the poor guy trying to use any current Linux distro.
Many times, software installation wizards for many applications, even Office, can be very confusing to new not-so-literate users. Besides, I’d like to point out that when Windows started dominating the scene, it was far less usable than OS/2 and Macintosh. Guess what become a monopoly?
And then for Macintosh, which by next year or the year after that, Linux *sales* (meaning official count of the amount of computers using Linux would be based on sales rather than downloads) would surpass that of Macintosh. Is Linux more usable than Mac OS? Not in a million years.
Success doesn’t depend solely on usability.
None: As far are Eugenia’s continued linux bashing which seems to be in almost every article what can I say?
She bashes every other OS, including her darling and apple of her eyes – BeOS. That can be seen as a pro rather than a con. However, she isn’t all that good in being polite and hitting around the bush (thus the name calling of anti-Mac, anti-Linux, anti-BeOS, anti-Amiga etc.).
JK: I was certainly bitterly disappointed after trying Mandrake Linux 7.1, the hype from Mandrake, Linux fans and Linux magazine reviews just didn’t match the reality.
Ironic wasn’t it? The first distribution I have ever used is Mandrake 7.1. Heck, I personally think 7.2 is utter crap, and the 8.x and 9.x are horribly terrible in comparison with 7.1.
Darius: The average office worker never soldered their computer together because there wasn’t much use (if any) for those computers in the office.
Computers picked up faster in the corporate than the consumer market during that time, the late 70s and 80s. People who solder their computers together are just that- enthuist. They aren’t “regular people”, in the same way geeks and nerds aren’t regular people.
Darius: New things? Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t Unix/CLI been around since the stone age??
I don’t see how “emerge” is a legacy of UNIX in the 70s. UNIX pretty much evolved A LOT, and same with the CLI. Telling that it is the same from the stone age is like saying Windows sucks from my experience with Windows 1.0.
Sagres: linux is just a piece of crap desktop operating system as windows is a piece of crap server operating system
Amazing isn’t it? Windows isn’t all that good a product for the desktop in its early days, and the same with Linux for servers.
While article writers may believe that they are informing the misguided masses, and any criticism of that article is from zealots who will hang onto their beliefs no matter what, the criticism often forces the author into an equally defensive stance on the issue from which they won’t retreat.
And if they flame you from all fronts, then you are truly right, so hold on to your opinions
Of course they would if you were advocating the mutilation and rape of young children. But I doubt you’d be truly right.