Jamie Zawinski wrote an editorial regarding the status of video playback under Linux (note: strong language is used). My take: The guy is my hero (he could use better language though). This is exactly the status of usability on Linux, and not just with video players…
Linux Usability …or, Why Do I Bother
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I didn’t notice it until I looked at teh stocks a the bottom of the page, but Red Hat’s stock is actually higher than Suns.
You can`t compare the absolute price of a stock to another. It means nothing, they have different amounts of shares in issue. If you want to compare then use Market Capitalisation which is Price x Shares-in-issue.
“I didn’t notice it until I looked at teh stocks a the bottom of the page, but Red Hat’s stock is actually higher than Suns.”
And Red Hat has how many shares on the market? Not even a fraction of what Sun has.
Compare the annual revenue and net worth of the companies. It isn’t even close. Sun is a fortune 1000 company. Red Hat isn’t even close. Also, Sun stock has split several times. Red Hat stock has never split. Given that, Red Hat stock is worth pennies compared to what it was worth when Red Hat was at their peak.
I agree with Eugenia. This is exactly the state of Linux. The zealots who pout and stomp their feet and think Linux is ready for the desktop and the average user really need to read this commentary. Linux is no where near ready for the desktop, and a lot of it has to do with shitty programming–especially in the UI department. These programmers need to go back to CSci school (or maybe go for the first time since many of them probably never went in the first place) and take the course “Fundamentals of GUIs” or “Fundamentals of user interface design”.
So the guy is clearly a complete moron and he has a hard time playing video under linux. BFD!
“Oh, crap I just downloaded a development version of a program and it is spewing debug info on my x-term… why on earth would any sick individual write debug info to a text terminal?”
I am just amazed that the guy was able to find the power switch to turn on the machine. Clearly it all went downhill after that….
There are very few companies that ever turned out good end-user software. And very few people that worked at those companies. If you don’t have the experience, it’s very hard to understand what it takes to turn out high-quality commercial software.
Outside of the big players, who is turning out good Linux software?
GNOME has been in development how long? And it still doesn’t have one good high quality and complete release? How much money has gone into it? Apple was smart and chose the much higher quality KDE technology base for Safari. The same thing Borland did for CLX.
Anyhow, it will be interesting to see what happens when Apple releases an x86 version of OS X along with all of Apple’s OS X apps.
–ms
>”Oh, crap I just downloaded…”
Stop quoting something he never said, ok?
>So the guy is clearly a complete moron
Have the decency to reply in a manner that doesn’t defame the author or anyone else.
As for mplayer being “development version”, well it is out many years now, and the author is not just used mplayer. He mentions a number of video players, ALL fall short. So, the problem is much bigger than you would like us to believe Javi.
“”Oh, crap I just downloaded a development version of a program and it is spewing debug info on my x-term… why on earth would any sick individual write debug info to a text terminal?””
That’s actually a good question. Like the average user gives a shit about debug info? Or can make heads or tails out it? It shouldn’t be posted to the terminal window so it can just get lost and never serve any useful purpose.
XFree pulls the same crap. After you exit X Windows it will have left tons of shit on the console, most of which is irrelevant and the user will never see anyway.
“So the guy is clearly a complete moron and he has a hard time playing video under linux. BFD!”
Pout and whine and name call all you want. It doesn’t change the facts that Linux is still beyond the average desktop user.
But also, thanks for demonstrating typical Linux zealot response. Pout, whine, stomp feet, and name call… Maybe I should do my animal behavior thesis on “Pouting and whining behavior in Linux zealots (Linsuxius zealotous) as a response negative reviews of a Linux products.”
on whether your drivel gets posted and linked to.
I quote: ” What are these fucktards thinking???”
This is a meangingful review? Good Lord…….
My time is better spent reading opinions from people who can say them without resorting to provocative profanity.
What a great, hilarious article!
I think Michael is right. Really, really good software is not common and, with the advent of multimedia, I think it would take quite awhile for a group of programmers to write really good apps like that, even working on them full time. This is definitely a great weakness in Linux at this time.
I agree that the author could have done better by using milder language. But his points are valid. With strong language or not.
Please, by all means simba do tell us which institution of higher learning offers a course titled “Fundamentals of GUIs”… thanks.
Linux is clearly not ready for the desktop, as it implies that the OS should be dumbed down for the average user (i.e. the writer of the original article). However the beauty of opensource is that no one is forcing you to use it, if you do not like it… then create your own. Instead of giving condescencing advice to people who are sharing their work for free. If you do not like it, well they will give your money back… oh wait… it was free.
Jamie is awesome. I think he’s just the coolest thing ever to come out of Netscape’s creation.
Anyway, he’s exactly right. Linux programs (and by and large, distros) are absolutely retarted. You have 1000 people who’ve developed 1000 different parts of the OS (and associated apps) with 10000 different ideas on how it should all work, and the Linux distribution creators just lump it all together and stir.
It’s BS.
If a Linux Distro wants to impress me, they should drop EVERYTHING in their current distro, rewrite the linux kernel and libraries for stability and compatibility (the kernel not so much as the various libraries), and then hand pick programs they know will work, and make sure they are stable.
Drop KDE or GNOME, but don’t lock them out. Let the users make their own specific version. Make sure future versions of the OS are backwards compatible with older versions.
Kill all the useless and dull repetitive apps. Having 16 different text editors is great and all, but I can only see needing maybe 3 or 4 (simple text editor like Kate or Gnotepad, Emacs, vi, and open office or abiword). Same goes with every thing else.
Do what Microsoft and Apple do and make really compelling and easy to use applications that address needs. Making a new video player that you know will work out of the box is a Good Thing. Same with audio.
I could go on, but I don’t think it’s needed.
Although this guy is bashing these programs, I don’t think that he is being comprehensive or fair in his judgements. Yes, it can take a while to install these programs. Once you become familiar with the process, it goes by much quicker. Some of the other things that he is complaining about are not due to the video players. Using the correct window manager and/or installation method would quickly solve some of his problems. We all know that RPMs are useless, and really the only way to install anything in a linux environment is to download the tarball and do it yourself. (which also can become a very fun time-consuming event).
There are good things about some of these programs. mplayer supports a long list of codecs, heck, it even plays .rm files now. The only real problem that I have with mplayer is the fact that it will occasionally lose synch between the audio and video.
“Please, by all means simba do tell us which institution of higher learning offers a course titled “Fundamentals of GUIs”… thanks.”
The University of Minnesota has as part of its computer science program:
CSci 5116 – GUI Toolkits and their implementation
Yes, there are courses on GUI design concepts. This is a science in and of itself. Certain designs work, others don’t.
//However the beauty of opensource is that no one is forcing you to use it, if you do not like it… then create your own. Instead of giving condescencing advice to people who are sharing their work for free. If you do not like it, well they will give your money back… oh wait… it was free.
I agree…
Admittedly I feel that eugenia comments are wide of the mark, media players are a weak point at the moment, but not typical of all Linux ui.
But, did anyone slamming the writer of the review,actually read the name, Jamie Zawinski is not a clueless newbie (I believe he was one of the senior haclers on mozilla)
Kneejerk comments like that make us look stupid.
That’s exactly what I did. Switched from a 2.5 Ghz P4 Dell running Redhat to a 1 Ghz PowerBook G4 running MacOS 10.2.3 and I’ll never look back. All the other developers use Linux, but at least 2 more are looking to buy a TiBook like mine in the next month or so after playing with my machine for 15 minutes or so. Now if only I can expense the TiBook to the company
The Dell just sits there and runs the Folding@Home client, I mean after all it would be a waste of a CPU to have it just sit there running the screensaver.
BTW, if you install the Dev Tools you get Emacs by default, just type emacs into the Terminal.
I’ve taken a liking to BBEdit though, once the CVS integration works a little better (ie, it can handle user interaction for SSH connections) it might be the best text editor I’ve found for any platform
-Nathan
JWZ has talent. He did a little programming, bought himself a bar, and now spends his time insulting the talent of other programmers with vulgarity and vitriol.
Not the sort of person I’d choose for a hero, thanks, but amusing in the manner of Rickles, Rivers, and the late Sam Kinnison.
I happen to *like* xine, and don’t care for Xemacs. Chacon a son gout.
— Bill
The poor fellow seems to have stumbled only onto the
really bad players (or versions of them).
Concerning Xine:
I love it, except for the *ghastly* standard skinned/themed/… GUI… this must be the worst case of
bad GUI design in the history of mankind *ever*.
BUT there is a solution: gnome-xine. This takes xine, and
gives it a nice GTK interface (standard Window, standard
“Play” etc. Buttons,…).
He has also missed avi-file (or aviplay or whatever the
full name is).
A great player, nice standard QT GUI… just perfect.
As for his complaint about the Debugging messages on the
xterm confusing novice users:
I doubt those users would launch the players from an xterm,
using some launch menu instead, which means: No confusing messages (at least on my system here).
I DO stay away from mplayer though, since the day it
freaked me out by completely messing up my XFree86 (the
thing even managed to turn off my screen… hell knows
how that happened with APM disabled…).
murphee
…that people at Slashdot/OSNews actually care what some out of work bar owner bitches about. Netscape’s browser lost because it sucked.
“Instead of giving condescencing advice to people who are sharing their work for free. If you do not like it, well they will give your money back… oh wait… it was free.”
In the real world, things don’t work this way. In the real world, if you put something out (writing, software etc.), people are going to comment on it. Some people aren’t going to like it and are going to write negative reviews about it. That’s just the way it is. Deal with it. I don’t see book authors constantly claiming that people are “morons and stupid” just because they wrote a bad review about their book. Negative reviews are part of the game just like positive ones are. No need to pout, whine stomp your feet, and name call because of it.
“Netscape’s browser lost because it sucked.”
True. But personally, I think Mozilla is a much better browser than IE. There is some good open source software out there. But a lot of it sucks. The same is true of commercial applications though.
–Advanced guide to Linux Video on an Advanced Distro–
Installation:
emerge mplayer
(Use kportage if you find the above too hard to type into a console.)
Change your preferences in kde, so mplayer is the default
video player.
Use:
Click on a video file to play it.
Conclusion:
It’s not that hard. The above applies to Xine and Ogle too.
Some people just make life hard for themselves.
My new hero: Simba.
I just happened to install mplayer last night on my RH8 box.
I was using Xine as my player, but needed a few extras, plus wanted the command line versatility of Mplayer for a future projected using Linux as a home theatre pc (HTPC.)
I’ve got synaptic installed on my installation. Originally I thought that installed mplayer was going to be as easy as selecting mplayer and then pressing “Proceed” in Synaptic. I wasn’t that fortunate: for some reason the rh8 release of mplayer wasn’t available on freshrpms. I thus installed all the dependencies anyway.
BTW: I went back to freshrpms a few hours later and found the rh8 rpm for mplayer was available.
Once the dependencies were installed courtesy of Synaptic, I searched and found the source for mplayer and downloaded it. It then compiled it, first configuring it for gui operation. Everything was right in the README file in the root source directory and everything worked exactly as planned.
mplayer worked exactly as promised. man mplayer works too. gmplayer works as well. (The graphical version.)
re: it goes behind other windows: right click the border and select “Always on top” in the KDE menu
I’ll be integrating mplayer with the LIRC stuff to be my very own, very customized DVD player for my HTPC. Actually, I am very, very impressed with all the options available with mplayer and how easy it was to install. I had absolutely zero problems.
The only thing I didn’t do was download the driver for my nvidia card. I suspect that is why the “brightness” and “contrast” controls don’t work from the command line. They don’t work in Xine either.
I suspect the problems the author of this article wrote about better reflect his abilities than the “difficulties” of installing mplayer.
Yes the arrogance of those free workers is really amazing.
Okay, they code for free to get an ego flash.
But does that mean that anybody else must be stupid too.
IBM is using this idiots to get a limlited kernel to sell
their middle ware. And the Liux coders think they do somthing usefull, like reinventing the wheel.
DOS 3.1 had more usefull features than Red Hat 8.
>Some people just make life hard for themselves.
I don’t see the point people getting on the pain of installing Gentoo just to be able to install a video player. Be serious.
Or was the whole comment of yours just an ad for Gentoo?
Sure, mplayer is a bitch to install (well, on slack. If you’ve got Redhat you can just hit up freshrpms.net) but I’ve found that it works very well. It has little overhead and the quality of the output is very nice indeed. The interface is a bit quirky, but with a decent skin it’s better than almost any media player on windows. Anyway, JWZ is pretty hard to take seriously.
I have to agree with most of Mr. Zawinski’s remarks. I have tried about a dozen video players for Linux and all of them lack a simple, elegant interface with basic functionality. And forget playing videos at full screen – you’ll get about two frames per second. The response I get from most people about this is that I should upgrade my hardware. My response is, if Windows can play video at full screen on the same machine, Linux should certainly be able to do it as well.
I also have to agree with the comments about using two separate windows for the video and the controls. This is confusing, counterintuitive, and awkward.
I do have to disagree with the way the author puts down the intelligence of the developers. They probably spent so much time coding just to get video for each format to display on the screen that when it came time to work on the interface, they just slapped something together because there is still so much more that needs to be done on the back end. Remember, most of these developers are coding in their spare time and they receive no money for their efforts, so I feel that we should just be grateful for what we have. If you have a suggestion for improving a piece of software, you should send it to them. With enough feedback from users, developers will have sufficient information to make improvements based on a consensus of everyone’s suggestions.
As for my suggestions for a video player, I would like to see one that supports a wide variety of formats, loads quickly, plays video at full screen with no frame drops, has a simple and elegant interface, and allows fast seeking through the file. When Linux has such a video player, I can finally give serious consideration to dumping Windows for good.
“Netscape’s browser lost because it sucked.”
…and clean out your ears, “Anonymous,” because Netscape’s browser lost because of MS’s marketing strategies, not because IE was any better. In fact, IE is probably the worst of the full-release browsers out there: bloated, huge security holes, and it (like other MS programs) likes to take over whatever you’re doing. I use Opera, but when something won’t display right (they still have to tweak their Java implementation), I turn to Netscape. Don’t be an idiot.
“a) Because you like the curse words he riddles his “review” with? Do you think such gems as “fucktard” actually make his weak-assed review any better than it is?”
If it isn’t, than why are you giving it so much attention? Ignore it and it will go away. You only give the review credit by giving it this much attention.
>not because IE was any better.
IE 4/5/6 was and is better than Netscape 4.x. Many-many times better.
<“Linux is clearly not ready for the desktop, as it implies that the OS should be dumbed down for the average user (i.e. the writer of the original article). However the beauty of opensource is that no one is forcing you to use it, if you do not like it… then create your own. Instead of giving condescencing advice to people who are sharing their work for free. If you do not like it, well they will give your money back… oh wait… it was free.”>
This is why Linux will not be ready for the desktop.
Attitudes like this from users and programmers..
Yea it’s medicore but it’s free.
Yea it’s not perfect, but it’s free.
What you need help? !#^%@$ you, it’s free.
Then they wonder why people use Windows or Macintosh?
>>”Oh, crap I just downloaded…”
>Stop quoting something he never said, ok?
Jeez, clearly you are not able to distinguish between a literal quotation and sarcasm. I am sorry I offended your hero.
>>So the guy is clearly a complete moron
>Have the decency to reply in a manner that doesn’t defame the author or anyone else.
…and I quote from the article (see this is a direct quotation) “Fucking morons.” , “What are these fucktards thinking???”. Oh, I am sorry I think the autor did all the “defaming” himself.
See, I actually know some of the people that worked on some of the forementioned packages. The problem with sharing your code is that eventually you are going to run with some idiot which is having problems with it. And somehow resorts to personal insults because the free piece of code he just downloaded doesn’t work, buhahahaaa.
If you have problems with a program, go ahead and write a critique with constructive comments. I do not know of a single major operating system/Application environment that does not have its share of problems. But frankly the level of this review left much to be desired…..
Apparently you Linux zealots haven’t figured it out yet… But the review was obviously intended for trolling. And just like a fish, you bit right in the bait, hook and all.
Fact: I can play more video formats, smoother and more stable under Linux then I ever could with Windows. Even WMV files plays smoother on Linux then Windows. Quicktime movies can be fullscreened without having to buy a “Pro” version, AND I easily view all these from Mozilla with mplayers excellent netscape plugin.
Mplayer:
* Rampant theming etc.
That’s the GUI (gmplayer for me) part, plays videos far worse then plain mplayer, and how much do you vol up/down or seek through a movie once you’ve started it? Do you really need the GUI? (“O” toggles on time/time left/ and such nice info neatly overlayed the movie if that’s interesting info for you).
* Aspect ratio.
Implemented in rc3 and above BY REQUEST, can ofcourse be turned off but having it default (as Windows media player) makes perfect sense. Takes alittle research but you can do it.
* Debug output.
Doesn’t effect performance, just minimize terminal or check what flag you need to use to silence it, takes alittle thinking but you can do it.
* One window / one control panel.
Totem (xine gtk2 frontend) looks and feels like windows mediaplayer, w/ playlists and all, it takes alittle looking but you can do it.
* Memorizing magic keystrokes.
C’mon don’t be an idiot… read which keys does what, use them once or twice, done. It’s IMO alot smoother then mouse usage, even for fast forwarding through a movie to a specific spot.
I STRONGLY disagree with Eugenia and no-patience-Jamie. Configure it correctly (pain/power of Linux software) and it’ll outshine most mediaplayers Windows can throw at you.
That was the most flawed “article” I’ve read in a loong time… looking past the curses and fact that Jamie obviously was upset writing it, it’s still false accusation after false accusation, and I doubt anything will change his mind judging by what/how he wrote.
…is to become a commercial OS. Some company needs to adopt the kernel an build an usable GUI on top of it. Forget about KDE and gnome, written by 1000 amateurs in 100 different countries. Then, commercial applications for it will come. Something like Apple did with OSX.
>I STRONGLY disagree with Eugenia and no-patience-Jamie. Configure it correctly
Video players are often pleasure items, for everyone. Configuring something as difficult in the command line as mplayer, it just nor right. By default is not right.
Well, yes. Netscape did suck, but no, that’s not why it lost. It lost because everyone’s favorite software company pushed it out of business, just like it’s done to dozens of other companies since the early to mid ’80s. I know, I’ve been around quite a while and I watched them fold up and die.
It’s one thing to make a better product and compete on an equal footing, it’s another thing to make a product that is being freely bundled into an Operating System that also subsidized by every copy of that Operating System that is sold. Microsoft can afford to do stuff like that. How long is it going to take before the rest of you morons wake up and realize this?
Yes, eventually Microsoft products do become fairly good. This is usually after they’ve killed their competition though.
Open Source in general, and Linux in particular are “works in progress”. I agree that for the most part they aren’t as nice or as polished as some of their commercial counterparts. You must remember, these applications are created by people that donate their time, usually without any kind of pay, for the simple reason that they want to. These applications do get better, and if you’ve used Open Source software for any length of time you will be able to see this. I’ve only been using Linux since about May of 1998, and I can see vast improvements in kernel, drivers, OS apps and user-land apps.
Will Linux ever take-over the desktop? probably not. Microsoft has too much inertia there. Will it get to the point where your Grandmother can use it? Definately. As I stated above, it has already gotten much better. The difference between the KDE or Gnome desktop of today, and the limited desktops that were being run in 1998 is tremendous! No, OpenOffice.org doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that Microsoft Office has, but then again, who needs all of them? I use OOo on my Linux, FreeBSD and Windows machines, mainly because I am too cheap to spring for more copies of Microsoft Office, and I don’t want to use illeagle copies of it either. So far, I haven’t found one single place where OOo didn’t do what I needed done. Sure, if you need heavy-duty macros, or you do a lot of office automation, M.O. is better than OOo, but I’d bet your Grandmother wouldn’t need all of those functions.
He tried xine, complained about the interface, but didn’t try any of the native interfaces built upon the xine library (Gxine, sinek, totem, etc).
I personally find Gnome 2 (and totem) to be very nice, if still not quite ready for prime time. But then I don’t use redhat 8.0
I think that he is a stupid guy and I recommend for it an Apple or Winblows machine. Pay for his ignorance and for other guys to think for him !
I run mplayer on Conectiva Linux perfectly and I think that is much better than Winblows Media Player. Apple is out of my mind because its hardware is proprietary and very very expensive here in Brazil.
This guy’s main point he’s spouting on about is NOT EVEN LINUX SPECIFIC! Idiotic themed media players started on *gasp* Windows! Ever see WMP 9? *shudder* And he thinks that APT-RPM somehow replaces his existing RPM system – LOL!!! I do agree about the bizzarness Xine’s UI but now I use Totem, yes Totem is in Freshrpm.net apt server, and it integrates well with the rest of my desktop. The Xine libraries used by Totem seem to support the most formats of any Linux player
This ‘commentary’ was one week attempt at trolling! That was funny I needed that this morning.
“* Debug output.
Doesn’t effect performance, just minimize terminal or check what flag you need to use to silence it, takes alittle thinking but you can do it. ”
Actually… Compiling debug symbols into the binary GREATLY affects performance. There is a very noticable performance increase when you compile with debug symbols turned off.
And I’m entirely justified in saying that, because the author called the MPlayer programmers “f*cking morons” and the Xine programmers “f*cktards.” There is no need for that kind of language in a review. If something doesn’t work well, just say that and leave it at that. As for the content of his article (or what pretends to be content) he is completely off base. MPlayer does allow you to bring the window to the front. I just tried it. The loon was probably running mplayer in command line mode (which doesn’t create a window, just interfaces directly with X). His comments about the “look” of the players are also totally off base. The “look” of every media player is bad. Windows Media Player isn’t any better than MPlayer. They are both awful. If you want a “native” looking media player, use a native media player (Noatun, which plays using the Xine plugins) or KMPlayer on KDE or Totem on GNOME. His comment about Ogle and Xine not playing the same things is also pointless. Everyone I know has at least 3 media players installed. Windows Media Player, Power DivX, and DivX Player 2.0 Alpha. The compression standards out there are so different, that no media player plays everything. WMP is actually worse than most, it won’t play a lot of DivXs that the other two do. Lastly, his comment about the players spewing log messages is also dumb. The log messages are there to help you debug in case something goes wrong. If the log messages scare you, you shouldn’t be starting it from the command line anyway! When you start from the GUI, you don’t see those log messages!
PS> Installation comments are getting old. Manually downloading RPMs is for losers. Complaining about manually downloading RPMs is like bitching about editing .ini files in Windows 3.1! It’s irrelevent in this day and age. Those using Gentoo or Debian have been basking in emerge/apt-get glory for a while now, where installing any programs boils down to “emerge mplayer/apt-get mplayer” or double-clicking on the program name from something like kportage. Even RedHat and Mandrake have entered the 90’s with urpmi and up2date. Now, if that borks on you, then you’ve got a valid complaint. But if you don’t even try the preferred installation method first, you’re just a goof who has no business doing “reviews.”
The players:
Group X: Linux software developers who write software for their own use. Have no “desktop Linux” pretensions beyond their own desktop.
Group Y: Linux software developers who write software with “desktop Linux” pretensions.
Group Z: Journalists and pundits.
The story:
Group Y spends a lot of their time and effort creating software for a desktop Linux system. Group X writes software for Group X, not giving a rat’s ass about non-technical end users. Group Z, being true to form (i.e. morons), hypes “desktop Linux” without really understanding Linux or the open-source movement just because it gets them attention/ratings/off. Once they’ve completed hyping “desktop Linux,” the non-technical end-users come along. However, Group Z has failed to educate them about the ACTUAL Linux scene, because Group Z are morons. The non-technical end-users find software written by Group Y as well as that written by Group X. And, they get the different desktop environments written by different factions of Group Y all confused under the rubric of “Linux,” because, well, explaining details doesn’t make good hype.
So, the non-technical end-users have a bad experience because “desktop Linux” hasn’t yet reached the level of maturity of Windows or MacOS, and because they weren’t informed about Linux in general. Group Z then can have a field day, trashing “desktop Linux” in order to get attention/ratings/off, heaping scorn on the hard work of Group Y because of the work of Group X. “Golly gee,” they cry, “We can have it both ways!”
Fucktards.
Your post stinks of hypocrasy. In the same paragraph where you say there is no need to the reviewer to resort to name calling, you resort to calling the reviewer names…
As a Windows user and developer I must say that I agree with the article.
I have setup Mplayer and Freevo on a gentoo box before. Although it was a very time-consuming job (it took me 2 weeks of nightly fidling to get everything working), the end result has been worth it. However, setup like that is not a desktop setup…..
I think, that most of the usability issues that people face on a linux system come from a few things:
1. There is no standard widget/api/toolkit to create robust GUI applications.
2. There is no “real” RAD development to develop nice GUI applications
3. Lack of experience in developing usable GUI apps on the part of the developers
4. Distribution is an issue (related to No 1.)
Bad GUI design is the general rule of our industry (it doesnt matter if its Windows or *NIX). There are always exceptions to the rule and right now there are just more exceptions on the Windows platform 🙂
If you can’t play video fullscreen, you should upgrade your hardware. It’s not that the hardware is not powerful enough, but your drivers probably don’t support Xv (video acceleration). It’s not the fault of the X developers that some manufacturers are evil and refuse to share specs. Even NVIDIA shares basic stuff like that.
…and I love this guy. Things won’t get better if we, as users , accept shitty UI.
[PROPAGANDA]This is the main reason I use KDE and not GNOME, I’m not a moron, I just like to use a desktop with a “logical” UI. Gnome2’s UI is AWFUL, but at least they made it up them selves for the most part. KDE’s Taskbar is stolen, but beyond that it’s pretty much an origional and great desktop. Xmms has great UI, but it is pretty much stolen from winamp and XMMS crashes like nobody’s buisness. As for video players…I’ve never been satisfied with mplayer, xine or aviplay as far as UI is concerned…realplayer is pretty good as is GTV, but both don’t support as many codecs as I would like. [/PROPAGANDA]
{ In the real world, things don’t work this way. In the real world, if you put something out (writing, software etc.), people are going to comment on it. Some people aren’t going to like it and are going to write negative reviews about it. That’s just the way it is. Deal with it. I don’t see book authors constantly claiming that people are “morons and stupid” just because they wrote a bad review about their book. Negative reviews are part of the game just like positive ones are. No need to pout, whine stomp your feet, and name call because of it.}
{This is why Linux will not be ready for the desktop.
Attitudes like this from users and programmers..
Yea it’s medicore but it’s free.
Yea it’s not perfect, but it’s free.
What you need help? !#^%@$ you, it’s free.
Then they wonder why people use Windows or Macintosh?}
I have to agree with both of you. This is the truth.
I was trying to make a point. Once you start using that kind of language (unprovoked) people stop taking you seriously. If you read my posts, you’ll realize that I almost never curse on these boards. But some people just deserve it. There is a difference between using strong language without reason (which is never necessary) and using it when someone deserves it (which is sometimes necessary, or else strong language wouldn’t exist).
So JWZ doesn’t like the available software choices for playing back video under Linux which is fine. But does he have to whine about it publically ? Who cares ? And instead of calling the developers of those products names why don’t you use that effort and write your own video player and share it with us since you apperently have a better understanding of GUI esthetics. JWZ is just about as fresh as the Netscape project he worked on. JWZ back in the days you were cool in my book but now ? Whine, whine, whine… Maybe you should get a Mac like you always wanted.
“I don’t see the point people getting on the pain of installing Gentoo just to be able to install a video player. Be serious. ”
My point is that it’s not really the fault of the writers if a user has difficulty installing their program. If you go straight to the source they wrote, it works fine.
The problem is with the all the different distros and their various versions of librarys and configurations.
One solution to this for precompiled distros is to pre-link the librarys and resources into the executable. This means a single big binary file, and it’s not ‘the unix way’, but I think people would trade off download time for an easy install.
As far as the gui goes, the author of the article could have just installed the Windows Media Player skin if he wanted to feel at home. The very thing he was arguing against in the article was the solution to his problem. Sigh.
“Or was the whole comment of yours just an ad for Gentoo?”
Well. Maybe
It does make sense doesn’t it?
Pay your local Linux zealot to install it.. Or then again they will probably do it for free anyway.
As I said earlier, the author could have done better without his foul language. But his points do remain valid though.
“There is a difference between using strong language without reason (which is never necessary) and using it when someone deserves it (which is sometimes necessary, or else strong language wouldn’t exist).”
There is no difference. Name calling always suggest immaturity. There is never a situation where it is justified or lends strength to an argument (take a speach class. They will probably talk about it). Strong language such as “Make damn sure you do it this way” is one thing because it can serve to emphasize that a particular point is very important. It gets that listeners attention and causes them to consider something more carefully. But name calling never accomplishes anything. There is never an appropriate time for it.
“(which is sometimes necessary, or else strong language wouldn’t exist).”
That’s hardly true. It can exist even if there is never an appropriate time for it. It can exist just because people lose their temper, get frustrated, and start using strong language for no good reason.
I use Totem and have the current nVidia drivers installed and I can do full screen with no droped frames and a low CPU usage.
But proper support for random video chipsets is still a week area for Linux.
JWZ puzzles me. He’s obviously a fairly intelligent guy. Yet he seems incapable of navigating a man page, listens to techno music, and prefers an approach to health grounded in superstition as opposed to science ‘because it makes sense to me’.
Personally, I’m extremely pleased with MPlayer. A quick look at the man page, and off I went. Basically, it plays everything I throw at it. Never tried the graphical frontend though.
I agree with Eugenia. This is exactly the state of Linux. The zealots who pout and stomp their feet and think Linux is ready for the desktop and the average user really need to read this commentary.
I’ve read this kind of commentary before, but it is pointless. Just because one guy can’t get things to work and writes a rant about his frustrations, doesn’t mean that he is correct; even if you happen to agree with him.
I’ve asked this before (but never received an answer), why does success on the desktop have to equate to some rube being able to figure things out? Well guess what, they can’t figure Windows out either!
I see absolutely no reason why a business could not operate successfully and completely using Linux or *BSD on both servers and desktops. All the necessary applications are there and all the necessary functionality is there.
Linux is no where near ready for the desktop
In your opinion. My opinion is that it works fine as a desktop and has for quite a number of years.
and a lot of it has to do with shitty programming–especially in the UI department.
Well, why don’t you show us all how it should be done? Where’s SimbaOS or SimbaOffice with its master interface? Have you ever looked through the source code for any OSS application? If not, why don’t you retract your obviously ignorant statement? If so, then please provide examples.
These programmers need to go back to CSci school (or maybe go for the first time since many of them probably never went in the first place) and take the course “Fundamentals of GUIs” or “Fundamentals of user interface design”.
It’s not just “these programmers”. It’s all of them. You can find stupid UI’s in any OS. The problem is that developers want to solve a problem, not make something look cute; that’s what UI designers are for. If you don’t like Linux, but want it to adhere to your high standard of UI excellence, then why not pull up a chair and get to work? The code is right there for you.
Sorry to be rude, but I don’t think much of people that harshly criticize work that others have done for free and donated to the world for free. Those people have given anyone who wants to the ability to fix bugs (design or otherwise), so instead of complaining go fix whatever you perceive as a shortcoming in the product. Otherwise, go use something else and spare the rest of us the “Linux isn’t for me so it sucks” tirade.
“This is exactly the status of usability on Linux, and not just with video players…”
I can’t imagine why an emotional rant like this would make someone a “hero”. I have never used any of the programs he is bitching about, but his experiences sure sound a lot worse than what I have experienced with Linux apps. As a former BeOS fanatic, I got used to hearing BeOS fans say that the user experience for Linux was difficult, confusing, and generally sucked. When I finally gave Linux a whirl in the form of Debian and KDE, I was amazed at how little pain was involved. More than BeOS, to be sure, but nothing like the hell I had anticipated based on reading things similar to today’s “news”.
It’s funny, people seem to think that there are never such issues with Windows.
I’ve been called by people countless times that couldn’t even install the simplest program. They couldn’t find it anywhere onlinen and they couldn’t find the downloaded file, they couldn’t unzip it or whatever.
In Windows, you’ll have to find it, download it – maybe unzip it – and click install program and then next next next next and then you’re there.
With some linux distributions you can get applications like MPlayer installed with a few lines or a few clicks. Most of them come with some sort of easy package/source management where you don’t even have to find the application yourself!
I installed Mandrake on a friend’s computer a while ago. He never learned Windows and he’d never tried linux. I gave him a quick course in using the package manager and he actually uses it without problems. I get fewer calls from him now that he can actually find some of the software and install it easily enough.
Please stop acting like Windows is so super easy for everyone that even your blind granny could use it. That’s BS.
It says all over the mplayer documentation that stupid people ask stupid questions all the time, since this is a development project focused on playing many formats and not on user interface, and they should read the documentation. Every single one of Mr Zawinski’s problems could have been solved if he had bothered to read the documentation. Yes, alot of mplayers default settings are stupid, but it doesn’t take that much effort to change them to your liking (if you read the documentation!).
This guy is obviously pretty frustrated by the things that happened. So, it is pretty funny to read a true rant from someone in that state of mind. Who cares if the language is a little foul–there is no doubt that it came straight from the heart. And, it is pretty accurate, too. It is of absolutely no use to post “it worked for me” because it obviously didn’t work for the poster. So, I don’t think this guy is my hero, but I can definately related to his observations and problems with regard to several Linux distros.
While he does bring up some valid points, I hate the way he says it. He has also been all to willing to write off projects because of a few failings. I’ve seen JWZ’s remarks on Mozilla and now on this. In both instances he came across as immature, egotistical, and unprofessional.
Now, back to the points he brought up.
1. The skinnable GUIs suck!
I agree with this. I personally prefer consistency over flash, but some people disagree. So far, the best usability attempt on linux that I’ve seen is Totem (decent Gnome2 GUI on top of Xine libs). Of course, JWZ wouldn’t have tried it since he hates RedHat 8.0 and Gnome2. Also, it is worth mentioning that other OSes are no better in this respect. On Windows, MS Media Player, RealPlayer, Quicktime, MusicMatch, Zinf, WinAmp and countless other players all use non-standard, ugly (my opinion) skins. I personally think Totem’s GUI is better than most of these and it is even consistent with the desktop!
2. Multimedia is hard to install on Linux
Again, I agree. Installing applications under linux is tough, but this problem is hardly restricted to multimedia apps. This is made worse by the fragmentation of Linux (apt vs. RPM). I hope a solution to this is eventually found. The distributions should be dealing with this issue better by having functional multimedia apps installed from the get-go, but there are so many intellectual property issues surrounding multimedia formats that it may be a while.
So, in the end, it all boils down to this. Linux multimedia is not now ready for the general purpose home desktop. However, through the efforts of these projects that JWZ enjoyed criticizing (and the developers he enjoyed insulting), it will someday be better. I just wish JWZ gave them the respect that they deserve.
His points about the “rampant themeing” on Mplayer is right. Sure that if he complains to Mplayer team he’ll hear a ‘f*** you’ response, but
Mplayer GUI simply sucks. The player itself is technically great and such.
(And yes, the Mosfet reference on the subject is completely gratuitious. Sometimes we need to troll a bit to maintain The Balance.)
If you dont line to have debug messages in the console then don’t use linux, use something else!!!
I personaly enjoy using linux, with all the debug messages, kernel hacks etc.. if you dont just dont use it! there are plenty of other OSs.
Sorry for my ignorance but I just dont understand all the agravation!
No one can or has the wright call moron or even complain of software he got for free and of his own free will.
sorry but the author is the definite moron!!!
First of all, why is he using Red Hat, a coporate environment distro?? All recent distros for the home user have got a mplayer package included.
Second, why not read the readme file and compile the program? Ain’t that hard.
Third, mplayer rocks with it’s format support. There isn’t a single player for Windows that support that many formats.
The only thing mplayer needs is a good GUI and a Mozilla plug-in.
I don’t know what some of you guys really want from Linux in general. It seems the same people who seem to defend Xfree, the UI, the WM’s that Linux currently have, don’t give a damn about Linux’s success in general…
Heck, maybe they are the same people rambling on about M$ evil empire that must be brought down…
Sure, it’s free to use, it’s you choice you say. But why can’t we have a choice of something open, something free, that can actually stand up against the ease and quality of the UI’s from OSX and Windows. Why?
If people do not voice their concerns over the weak points of Linux, heck, no one would care to improve it.
So, let them rant on about the awful UI, which is awful indeed compared to it’s competition, and maybe some developers, some company, someone will actually fix the UI.
Apple could slap on a beautiful GUI onto *nix. The OSS community could do it too… But to disregard it’s apparent weaknesses, is just plain out wrong.
> Please stop acting like Windows is so super easy for everyone that even your blind granny could use it. That’s BS.
Amen Brother
Actually mozilla has an mplayer plugin (works very well too). http://www.mescalinexp.net/
I must say that for someone who goes around calling other people “morons”, “fucktards”, “stupid” and “idiots” Jamie might as well get some of his comments right. Specifically, he complains about the gstreamer guys recommending apt for RPM as the easiest way to install binaries, and adds:
“They point you at an RPM that installs apt, the Debian package system! Yeah, that’s a good idea, I want to struggle with two competing packaging systems on my machine just to install a single app.”
Well, guess what? There _is_ a version of apt for RPM based distros, and it is _not_ a different package management system that installs .deb packages or anything like that. It just manages RPMs. That’s all.
In any case, Jamie makes some good points… and no, he is not an ignorant as Javi suggests in some other comment. Perhaps he is not aware that Jamie Zawinski is one of the original developers who wrote Netscape… which by the way also has its own nice load of senseless GUI problems. It’s a pity that Jamie is completely unable to write a decent piece with some constructive comments instead of insulting people all around him.
“First of all, why is he using Red Hat, a coporate environment distro??”
So why are so many reviews, people, etc., recommend to use of RH? Is RH and the Linux community confusing newbies?
“Second, why not read the readme file and compile the program? Ain’t that hard.”
Take the Windows alternative… It already has WMP. Missing codecs? It downloads the ones it supports.
Ah. Need to play an .rm file? Download RealOne, RUN. Need to play a QuickTime file? Download Quicktime, RUN.
It’s really no big hassle to have 3 media players, if you can install it easily. And yes, it just works.
*fantastic* comment:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=51786&cid=5151874
“I agree that the author could have done better by using milder language. But his points are valid. With strong language or not.”
No, his points are based on software that was released *YEARS AGO*!
Install a recent Linux, use apt, get the packages and be happy.
“Please stop acting like Windows is so super easy for everyone that even your blind granny could use it. That’s BS.”
Well, I guess Linux is not trying to attract Windows users, if that’s what you’re trying to get through.
Sure, Windows has it’s share of problems… But with everything in place, and installation of programs being much easier (the popular ones atleast), it’s quite easy to do things.
OSX just works. Windows just works, most of the time… All their good points and bad points are usually slapped into one OS.
While Linux? The good points of Linux just seem to be scattered throughout it’s hundreds of distro’s.
I’ve yet to find one distro (Yoper might get there after a few versions), that can give me all the other distro’s good points…
Apt, Portage, RPM, TGZ, Wizards, Easy installation, option to build pretty much from scratch, Wizards for almost every configuration aspect, yet the ability to configure by command line, great UI, good fonts, great distro-oriented documentation.
Or simply, it just works, or close to it.
“*fantastic* comment:
http: //slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=51786&cid=5151874 ”
Couldn’t agree more.
I think he’s got what he deserves. If he can’t do such simple task like playing movies with Linux he should stay with Windows and pay for that.
It is so much easier to play everything (almost) with mplayer than to search the web for codecs for Windows. It is a real pain in the ass to find those most recent ones.
And yes I think it is easier to type
tar jxvf Mplayer.tar.bz2
cd Mplayer
./configure && make && make install
than to wander around the internet for codecs. And mplayer works so much faster than window media player.
genius. And someone who had the opportunity to say what many thought, but never dared to say. Yes, anything-multimedia on Linux is a slow torture. I had my share while trying to do MIDI work in Linux.
The review was bittersweet: hilarious, yes, but also painful as I completely empathize with Jamie.
You aren’t using XV or a Linux version that’s made any claims to the desktop (NOT TO MENTION THAT IT’S AN OLD VERSION OF REDHAT!)
What is wrong with enjoying what you use. I enjoy linux in its current state very much and I enjoy the control it gives me even if I have to spend an extra hour here or there once a week to set something up that I wouldn’t even have an option in windows or MacOS to do…so be it.
That is my personal viewpoint and other happen to share it, who am I hurting I don’t need linux on every desktop to wake up in the morning. The same way that apple holds a market I can never hope to touch (ease of use, overpriced hardware for performance but honetly wonderful design. Luxusry market essentially), if Linux was to continue to hold a market for those seeking control and willing to have a more difficult to use setup I’ll live happily.
I’m not a zealot in either camp. I don’t want or need microsoft vanquished and bankrupt. I need them coralled for the health of a society I live in, no company can behave in such a manner spread lies and deciept to whoever and be expected to not be punished for it. Its for their on good (so as not to build resentment among their own customers and people that aren’t but may have a say…read judge), as well as ours.
That said it does no one any good to likewise spread fanatical degrading words to anyone, about how if you can’t do this your a tool and don’t deserve a computer. I have done this in the past and regret every word. I now use my computer and help those with trouble best I can to do what they want. If I want to tool around on Linux getting whatever the hell I want to look right, and I’m damn happy with my GUI, my X windows, my vi, and more importantly I can make a living doing it and contribute to society in positive way (by building servers, by coding packages whatever) let me be.
Finally I’d like to thank all the “horrible” projects that have been slammed over and over today, you make my life better and make it possible for my pc to work the way I want. Hopefully someday people will figure out what they want from linux in the meantime I love it for its emphasis on utility over features…damn me to hell for trying to be satisfied I’m sorry so many of the rest of you aren’t
Take the Windows alternative… It already has WMP. Missing codecs? It downloads the ones it supports.
I’m sorry, but that’s just complete bullshit. If I want to play a divx, I have to check in which codec it’s encoded, and hunt arround on the web to find the codec. It doesn’t download shit.
I’m actually a Mac Os X user, (I use Linux and Windows too though). Let’s be hontest, the usability of video players sucks on Windows, MacOSX and Linux. Either you have to keep hunting arround for 300 codecs (WMP and QuickTime, auto-download indeed..), which ultimately will lead to conflicts and instability.
Or you spend time on installing mplayer/xine. Which can take alot of time, or little time.
On RedHat Linux it’s quite simply, doubleclicking on an apt-rpm, do apt-get update && apt-get install mplayer, on some other distro’s, you’ll have to compile. Although I much prefer totem on RH Linux, it’s the easiest. (totem is a gnome frontend for xine). Btw, the author of the article is completely clueless, apt4rpm just uses plain rpms, no debs. Check facts before you rave.
Well, on Mac OsX it’s currently the easiest. You can just install MPlayerOSX and it will pretty much play any video you throw at it. The gui could be improved though, but still. MPlayerOSX sucks less than any other.
“I think he’s got what he deserves. If he can’t do such simple task like playing movies with Linux he should stay with Windows and pay for that.”
Ah… so you pretty don’t much care for Linux adoption, or those “switchers”. You probably don’t care that M$ has a 90+% market share. Guess that opinion would make sense in your case.
“It is so much easier to play everything (almost) with mplayer than to search the web for codecs for Windows. It is a real pain in the ass to find those most recent ones.
And yes I think it is easier to type
tar jxvf Mplayer.tar.bz2
cd Mplayer
./configure && make && make install
than to wander around the internet for codecs. And mplayer works so much faster than window media player.”
Errrrr. Roam the net for Codecs? Lets see… WMP usually downloads the codecs it doesn’t have, and heck, if you’re really desperate to play a rare video, you just need to find ONE Codec pack…
Lets see… NIMO Codec Pack. That’s all you need.
Isn’t this much easier? GOOGLE up NIMO codec, download, unzip, hit the .exe.
GUI and appication design in Linux, in general, stinks. Then again, I ain’t too fond of the LUNA interface in XP either…….
jamie is your hero? my opinion of you just dropped considerably.
yea, he has a right to his own opinion, but he is an ass nevertheless.
Lets see… NIMO Codec Pack. That’s all you need.
Isn’t this much easier? GOOGLE up NIMO codec, download, unzip, hit the .exe.
Way too much hassle. Personally, I simply ‘$ sudo apt-get install w32codecs’. But hey, that’s me.
It should also be noted that apt-get actually _works_ on Debian, as opposed to on most RPM-based distributions, and this is why:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-policy
…I’m using an old k6-2 300mhz which is too slow to be able to play divx without sound skipping or playing 3 seconds later than the actual movie under windows. Using xine under linux I can actually watch them on the same machine so its programmers deserve many thanks from me.
This isn’t a review. This is just a poorly put together rant.
…I’m using Knoppix. I wouldn’t even think using or suggesting any distribution which offers less than this one CD.
freshrpms.net
all the real work is done for you.
Download the rpms for all the Multimedia players and have fun
This whole thread (and article) has given me my humor ration for the day – thanks!
Seriously though, foul-mouthed though he be, he’s only using the same $&#*^ words I do when stuff won’t work right. So he puts it in a “review”. Oh. Was that what that was? I thought it was a personal blog on his site about his install experiences.
And by the way, should I be led to creating my own distro or OS, you can bet I’ll be calling it “SimbOS” – complete with it’s own version of OpenOffice.org recompiled to “SimbaOffice”… Ahahahahahaha!
I would never develop anything for this guy. If someone was appreciative of the hours I’ve spent coding something, and they suggested improvements, there’s a good chance they’d be made. The only thing this review is going to accomplish is to make developers mad and separate people with different views onto different sides.
How will that _ever_ make _anything_ better?
I love this article it shows just how pathetic Linux is and how it will NEVER EVER make it onto the desktop. You want a great MultiMedia eXPerince ? Well you know the boys at Redmond are the only ones who can provide that for you. Linux is just a joke of a hacked up OS.
No, I think the replies to the article/rant are BIGGER evidence as to why Linux will never make it on the desktop.
I mean there are plenty of players
plenty of mplayer and xine front-end to the skin-impaired and the cli-impaired people.
Mandrake 8.2 played non-encrypted DVD’s out of the box with Xine and I never had trouble figuring it out. Want to play an encrypted DVD? Go to any PLF mirror and download the appropriate plugin rpm. Double click it to install and you’ll be on your way to watching a DVD. How hard is that?
“Mandrake 8.2 played non-encrypted DVD’s out of the box with Xine and I never had trouble figuring it out. Want to play an encrypted DVD? Go to any PLF mirror and download the appropriate plugin rpm. Double click it to install and you’ll be on your way to watching a DVD. How hard is that?”
It isn’t… But then again. That’s for Mandrake…
Then another person advises to use Gentoo’s Portage system to install MPlayer, emerge mplayer… Another person praises the benefits of apt.
So you’re advising me to install Debian, Gentoo, Mandrake, RedHat?
“How will that _ever_ make _anything_ better?”
Are you from Europe? All this confrontation avoidance is utter nonsense. It creates more problems than it solves everytime – from programming open source to Iraq.
I say, excuse Jamie for showing genuine human emotion – feeling, if you will. If the programmers take it as a direct insult, so be it. They’re also missing the point.
This isn’t Kindergarten or some sort of touchy-feely ‘feel good all over’ exercise. Open source programs are becoming worldwide and big time! Far better to get reactions like this one rather than useless, unmotivated, muted responses that indicate limited interest levels.
The fact that Jamie is so demonstrative in his rant means that he actually CARES about the state of multimedia on Linux. We need to hear from users like him. We need to know why their frustrated and what needs to be done. This was a wake-up call, not a first strike.
I say I must disagree entirely with this artical. I have found that aside from video editing there is no image or video that I can not play under Linux which is certinally not true at all of any other operating system. There are numerous applications and not all of them work all them time, but that is because there are so many different formats. Aviplay, mplayer, Ogle, realplayer, and by installing crossover I can use Quicktime and Windows media player. Many files I am easily able to view are unviewable on Windows machines and OS X. Of course I use Debian GNU/Linux sid which makes installation easy with apt, but I have no problems so long as I try mutipule applications. In fact crossover is not really nessacary for anything execpt Quicktime.
On os X, and im quite happy with it (though I wish it supported more new formats), but It was alot easier to install then anything on linux sadly.
Yep… I would agree with Chuck on this one… Some big companies can spend millions on surveys and getting their customers opinions on their products, and how to improve it.