A judge has ordered Microsoft to make it easy for Sun’s popular programming language to work with Windows. But the remedy may be too little, too late, Salon says. Update: Microsoft appeals Java must-carry ruling.
Is There Hope for Java?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Sun made a great deal of bad decisions in regards to the design of Java as a programming language. For example:
* The treatment of primitive types, and the lack of mutable primitive type wrappers. Because of this, a great deal of nasty glue is required for any primitive type/object interaction.
* The lack of operator overloading, which would negate any negative properties of the above as sane mutable primitive type wrappers could be written (ones which could be interacted with using operator overloading) Operator overloading abuse may be ugly, but it’s no uglier than trying to do math with method calls.
* The use of operator overloading in special cases in which Sun deemed it was convenient, such as in the case of StringBuffer and the ‘+’ operator. This is not only hypocritical, it reeks of bad language design.
I could go on and on, or you could read JWZ’s page where he rants about it: http://www.jwz.org/doc/java.html
At any rate, C# has solved all of this, and has the support of the world’s largest software company.
Java is doomed.
I think Java is awesome, but is plagued by MS and bad marketing. However, I think it will still become the language of the future.
I know that some people want Java to survive lest .NET reigns supreme. But when it comes down to a choice between Java and .NET, it’s almost like … which is worse, being eaten out by Jaws or fingered by Captain Hook ?
Java is a horrible piece of technology. Well, not really .. it’s just the way people use it, with crappy web applets (button rollovers, etc), ad banners, and software that shouldn’t have even been attempted in such a language. It’s the same thing as Flash .. people’s misuse of it makes me sometimes wish it had never been invented in the first place.
> However, I think it will still become the language of the future.
Java is here with us for 10 years. You still believe it will be the language of the future? So far, nothing has shown that.
Still, in many cases I see Java as an evolution to C++. As I see C++ as an evolution to C. And C as a nice alternative to Pascal. However, on the same grounds, I see C# as the evolution over Java. C# as a language (forget the API) is a great language. And that, for programming in general, is a good thing. Evolution.
Java could have been a great language if the judge decision would have been in effect 5 years ago. Now is a little bit too late. Java will be around for a couple more years, but don’t expect it to beat other portable languages (that I’d rather not mention).
Microsoft definately played a very negative role in the adoption of Java as a portable platform, mostly cause they did not want a portable platform to exists (kept ppl on x86/windows).
Now the only thing we can hope is that Microsoft doesn’t start its own Linux distro.
100% with Bascule.
I’d just like to add how sickening it trully is that the US government is now ordering a company to includes a rivals wares within it’s own products. So much for capitalism. I hope everyone is ready for the future America – a fascist America.
“Is there hope for Java?” is a bit misleading. Well, woohoo, MS have to distribute a Java Virtual Machine with their os, so now all windows users can watch little applet animations on the web. Java strong area isn’t applets anymore, like it was in the mid-90s. Java rocks on the server side, both as app server for web, middleware solutions. If only people could realize that Java isn’t an old version of Flash, and got more diverse and better uses than applets, there would probably be less of these useless articles on Javas future.
Does it matter whether Java, C#, etc… survive?
Algol introduced garbage collection, block structure, data types, compound statements, n-dimensional, nested statements, BNF,etc…
Although the language died, its influence the design of modern structural languages (i.e. C, Pascal, and others) lives on.
The same can be said of Eiffel in terms of OO languages.
no.
It matters to those who make money off of it.
welcome fellow .client.attbi.com. ATT rocks
>>>It matters to those who make money off of it.
How is that? Explain.
Yes, but it is not like Java is not evolving.
Algol introduced garbage collection, block structure, data types, compound statements, n- dimensional, nested statements, BNF,etc…
What the HELL? Algol introduced garbage collection? No no no. Lisp had garbage collection years before Algol 68.
Although the language died, its influence the design of modern structural languages (i.e. C, Pascal, and others) lives on.
The same can be said of Eiffel in terms of OO languages.
Uhh, perhaps you mean Smalltalk in place of Eiffel?
ATT does rock. Nothing like 400Kb/sec downloads
Because companies tend to get locked into a “brand name”. Java/C#/VB are all brand names for all practical purposes. That’s what potential clients hear too. They might not have the slightest of clue what Java/C#/.NET is, but they know that they’ve heard of it. Trying to sell a Pike based solution to a meat-head who got a free MS .NET beta CD is pointless.
One is forced to comply with the latest buzzwords…
As for the influence…an influence is pointless unless there is something that concretizes it. Then we go back to the brand name language of the decade
It’s entrenched, it works now already on a number of systems. Virtually any computer science graduate learns java as a primary language, and ms’ tools still don’t beat the java library.
It integrates without a hitch with the most popular webserver (and webclients for that matter). The language has been explored. Catches, pitfalls, limits are known, explored and being worked on.
Java is up to its third iteration, with the backing of the open source community. (if you don’t know why this is important, port a linux app to VC++, you’ll be surprised, I can assure you) (and a LOT of people know that)
Personally I think MS is too little too late this time.
>What the HELL? Algol introduced garbage collection? No no no. Lisp had garbage collection years before Algol 68.
I said structural language. If memory serves me well, lisp is a functional language.
>Uhh, perhaps you mean Smalltalk in place of Eiffel?
No Eiffel. nice try
Leave Smalltalk in the classroom, where it belongs
You boneheads our truly out of touch.
Sun, IBM, Borland, WebLogic, Sybase, Oracle, ( now Apple )… all continuing to develop and deliver Java.
And quality implementations unlike the Bugfest Microsoft delivers.
Doing the same project in Java vs. VB, Sun wins with 300% fewer bugs.
500% fewer serious project killer bugs.
Microsoft wins on more broken features.
Of course, you can pretend that Java is losing, but then, you’d only be a fooling yourself. To implement in .Net means you’ve restricted yourself to generic Intel hardware. Using Java you get to run on the hottest hardware around. Of course, if you don’t care, that’s your decision.
Microsoft had better get with the program.
Cry baby Bill’s going to have to learn to play nice with others.
Java isn’t going away.
I did a totally informal, unscientific poll of all the developers in the office (about 15) and 12 out of them listed Java as their favorite language with one person for C, one guy for tcl/tk (he’s kind of weird :->) and one guy listed Smalltalk.
It also seems that many of the applications we get now have C/C++ backends and web/java front ends. For those working in a totally Windows environment I see the appeal C# but the rest of the universe that needs cross-platform tools java is doing the job.
so far, no companies are migrating their Java apps over to C# and those companies that have Java apps are not investing in C# apps. it will be easier to see where this goes, though I must say that with Mono out there, C# has gained the alll importent all platform runability that Java curently has and MS knew this.
so realy, when mono 1.0 comes out, we will realy have 2 languages taht can compete (thank god I can get mono so I don’t have to run the bloated pig called VS.NET to develop in C#)
Our company is rewritting Cobol code into Java.
All my friends are still programming in C++.
Is .NET all hype? Or marketed to those Visual Basic programmers.
The hardware might be “the hottest”, unfortunately, 99% of the market does not run “the hottest” hardware.
IBM is and going to continue playing both sides. IBM is in the bussiness to make money. What ever will facilitate that that’s where IBM will be.
Out of the other companies you’ve mentioned Oracle is the only “player” if you will. All others are serving small nich markets.
And lastly, 40 *billion* dollars is still quite a bit of money and still buys <insert winning strategy here>
Alex wrote:
> However, I think it will still become the language of the future.
Java *was* the language of the future, but the future ain’t what it used to be.
I think Microsoft should not only appeal but also sue the judge for this ruling. I don’t think the judge complied with the law when he gave this decision. It is totally ridiculous. The judge should withdraw from the court all together.
Bah… i’m not to bash anyone but why does anyone needs to bash at any programming language??? Cant you just grep it???
Hear this….
There are a TON of companies that have spent MILLIONS on the latest in UNIX systems that won’t be running Windows or anything .NET any time soon.
There are also HUGE embedded java developers like Nokia. You have one of their latest phones? Then you have something that runs java not Windows CE or .Net.
Remember folks, Java is a full platform. You can put it on top of whatever OS you happen to have. *NIX, Windows, embedded systems, etc. That means you don’t have to pay a Microsoft OS tax for your device or application if you don’t want to. That’s one heck of selling point!
And don’t tell me that C# is standardized and will be multi-platform. Microsoft lives and dies with the market penetration of Windows. It is NOT going to port of .NET to a competitors OS unless Windows looses massive market share.
Mono ( http://www.go-mono.com/ ) has the right idea about creating a free and simple OO multi-language / multi-platform framework, but because they based their tools on C# they will not gain wide acceptance from OSS or MS. What a shame…
Personally, my two favorite languages are Dylan and Ruby, but I can’t use either of them for the large-scale applications I do. (Dylan in theory would be great, but it just doesn’t have the libraries or support.)
So, I defected from Java to C# even before .NET went out of beta. I don’t respect the opinion of anyone who hasn’t worked extensively with both. For instance, I always hear this straw man argument that vaguely compares .NET to VB. There’s a language included with .NET called VB.NET, but we’re talking about something that’s PROFOUNDLY — and I can’t stress that enough — different from the VB of the past.
.NET is like nothing else Microsoft has ever done.
It isn’t .NET that’ll kill Java, it’s XML, SOAP, and web services. Why should I be hobbled by something like Java when I can write code in C# that leverages the operating system and passes XML around? Even if web service interoperability isn’t 100% there yet, it’s not exactly rocket science to pass around a chunk of XML and parse it anywhere.
Don’t get me wrong, for some things I think Java is still a better choice. I believe the LimeWire client is written using Java, and that’s the right way to go, because they don’t want a forked code base. Whenever you can’t anticipate or have no control over what OS you’ll be distributing your app on, Java is a good way to go. (But then so is Python and perhaps Ruby.) But in the corporate intranet environment of my company, we don’t give a flying phuqk about that.
> (thank god I can get mono so I don’t have to run
> the bloated pig called VS.NET to develop in C#)
Nope, not true. You can use the free (but a little large) download from MS with C# dev tools. I tried it for a little while, but got scared off with operator overloading. However after seeing it used well (so far only one maths lib
I can see the point of having Java/<insert language of choice) auto-mapping
Object z = x+y;
to
Object z = x.plus( y );
God what a freaking pathetic loser company. They can’t compete so they try to sue to get their crapware on perfectly well running Windows PC’s ? Come on talk about LAME !!
would giving java to a standards committee help in adoption and evolution of java, or is sun handling java correctly/it is too late to save it? This is honest, as i am interested in jave (i start learning it next week
).
It is an alternative to COM
I really gotta ask Microsoft… since when COM promised write once, run anywhere (WORA)? CORBA is COM’s chief competitor in that field, not Java.
U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz ordered Microsoft to include a copy of Sun’s Java “runtime environment” — the software that allows a computer to run programs written in Java — on “any product containing .Net,”
Which is with .NET itself :-). Sorry, but I don’t know any version of Windows that is already released that contain .NET. Oh, wait, Office! But parts of .NET integrated into Office XP actually competes with Sun ONE rather than Java..
that Microsoft’s early moves against Java sealed the fate of Sun’s programming language and paved the way for Microsoft to take over yet another software market, with .Net.
Actually, it was aggravated by Microsoft’s actions, but if Sun acted more long-sighted in this case, it is very hard for Microsoft to aggravate this issue. Other parties also aggravate the situation, particulary IBM.
Not long after it was released, amid a storm of boom-era hype, Java was criticized for running very slowly on Windows, and — because of Microsoft’s actions, Sun contends — the software still carries the burden of that first impression.
Actually, the first VM Microsoft released (which was around the time when the hype was taking place, not before), it was literary the fastest around. Java is not only slow for desktop applications on Windows, but on Linux, UNIX, Solaris, Mac OS 8.x/9, etc. Blaming the (lack of) speed on Microsoft is rather unfair.
But Java has made gains in non-Windows environments. The language is, according to some, the most widely used language for network servers and mobile devices.
For the latter, i doubt it (how much software for stuff like PDAs, smartphones etc. use Java?). But for the enterprise, the reason why it is so popular is because it doesn’t suffer effects of Swing’s slowness. Meaning, Java is *fast* enough, even on Windows 2000 Server and Advance Server with J2EE and its predecessor.
Critics of Microsoft are not inclined to believe that the company has reformed
Of course they aren’t reformed, even Microsoft can tell that. Microsoft would only make something open if they benefit from it. If you give Microsoft Apple’s market share size, without changing its corporate culture, they would be as open as Apple is today, maybe even more.
There may finally be a level playing field
If you want a really level playing field, force Java and C# to break every form of compatiblity, so programmers can choose better. Cause now there are far more apps written in java than in C#, isn’t that unfair?
the “fragmented” market, in which most computers have old versions of the Java software
Sun literary forced Microsoft to sign a agreement where they can’t upgrade their VM except to include security fixes.
Java was also interesting to programmers because it was one of the first easy-to-use “object oriented” languages.
IMHO, Smalltalk is far more easier than Java. Heck, Python was so easy it took me a day to learn it, while till today, I don’t really understand how to program simple Java applications.
Only small parts of C# got standardized. So yeah, maybe you can you see C# on other platforms, but I wouldn’t expect to build a cross-platform application
Actually, C# as a whole is under the EMCA. As for the .NET Framework, only small parts of it are under the EMCA. Besides with Mono, you could very much build rather complex applications that can be used on Microsoft’s implementation and Mono, and you could build even more complex applications later on when it matures even more.
But may I ask, when Java was 1 years old, how much platforms did Java really ran on? Only the major desktop operating systems.
But of course, if you mix Win32 and .NET, something Microsoft even encourages, the result would be the same if you mix Win32 and Java.
If Java wins, and most programs run across all software, what use will any of us have for Windows anymore?
Me? No. However, if that is gonna happen, even if Microsoft acted all goody-good with its dealings with Java, by time it is economically possible where applications can be ported to Java, desktop computers would probably have gone with the way of mainframes.
Sun marketed Java very well, maybe even too well. Ask any developer, if they never heard of Java, they probably been frozen for a decade. Ask any IT manager, they *know* what’s Java is.
On the contrary, Microsoft marketed .NET very badly. Ask different people (non-OSNews guys) what .NET is, you almost definately get different answers. It is this, it is that, it is this and that blah blah blah.
But the chief mistake of Sun is trying to protect Java too much. For example, if they sent it to some standardization instituition (something they promised in the early days of Java), wouldn’t Microsoft, IBM, Apple, etc be able to give input into Java? Microsoft gives a lot of input into EMCAscript, and they aren’t “stiffling it” as they did to early versions of JavaScript because they got some say into it.
Sun isn’t a desktop company, it doesn’t know what desktop developers want. Microsoft does. They have a huge market share with developer tools, and they stole the market from right under Borland’s nose without any so-called “anti-competitive” behaviour. If Microsoft place a standardized Sun-approved version of Java, would they be anymore successful on the desktop? I highly doubt it.
So just to note, Sun is very good in marketing their products. Just not as good in business direction. Marketing isn’t the only thing that makes a product successful or not, but without it, the product is doomed.
Christophe: Java is up to its third iteration, with the backing of the open source community.
Java in the open source community isn’t all that prevelant. There is very little Java apps, unless you count stuff like Eclipse and LimeWire (which is actually developed largely like a commercial product).
Christophe: It’s entrenched, it works now already on a number of systems. Virtually any computer science graduate learns java as a primary language, and ms’ tools still don’t beat the java library.
One of the favourite bashing reasons for java advocates against C# is on how similar C# is with Java. I know A LOT of Java developers that manage to learn C# within days (being productive with it is another story altogether).
GetOutOfHere: Leave Smalltalk in the classroom, where it belongs
Actually, Smalltalk have a lot of potential outside the classroom, no one really wants to support it and make it realize its potential. heck, Smalltalk probably be more successful than Java if there were some huge marketing money going behind it.
Mike: Sun, IBM, Borland, WebLogic, Sybase, Oracle, ( now Apple )… all continuing to develop and deliver Java.
For the first one, obviously (they made Java). As for IBM, the only reason why they deliver and develop Java is because they can make money out of it (J2EE currently sells far better than .NET, and would be that way for some time until Microsoft gets a clue).
Borland is pushing a lot of money in .NET, but obviously they are still keeping their Java investments (reason: it is smart that way).. Apple’s love affair with Sun can be traced back to NeXT’s birth and the support and partnership both Sun and NeXT had.
deb-man: so realy, when mono 1.0 comes out, we will realy have 2 languages taht can compete (thank god I can get mono so I don’t have to run the bloated pig called VS.NET to develop in C#)
No, if you don’t like using a RAD IDE, you can always use Microsoft’s free SDKs. But if you like Mono, but frankly, I see no difference, other than the fact that Mono SDKs don’t really allow mixing WIn32 and .NET.
GetOutofHere: Is .NET all hype? Or marketed to those Visual Basic programmers.
No, and no. If there weren’t any hype, I’m sure .NET would be better off now. Why? Microsoft haven’t delivered .NET in full, therefore there is so much confusion over what it is. As for VB, not really. They do have VB.NET, but .NET is targeted to a audience much larger than that.
John Galt: And lastly, 40 *billion* dollars is still quite a bit of money and still buys <insert winning strategy here>
And also can buy Sweden..
Sergio: I don’t think the judge complied with the law when he gave this decision.
Actually, the judge complied with the law almost perfectly. But the injuction can be appealed, and probably overruled.
Phuqker: Even if web service interoperability isn’t 100% there yet, it’s not exactly rocket science to pass around a chunk of XML and parse it anywhere.
Actually, XML can be parsed anywhere, as long it is delivered in a way any product can read it. For example, if I place a 1048576-bit encyption on that XML, and only my product can decypher it, well, only my product can parse it.
However, Microsoft is working with IBM on XML standards.
Aitvo: God what a freaking pathetic loser company. They can’t compete so they try to sue to get their crapware on perfectly well running Windows PC’s ? Come on talk about LAME !!
Who are you and what have you done to the real Aitvo?
rajan r, what are you smoking? There isn’t a drop of .NET in Microsoft Office. Not one iota. That is, if we’re talking about “managed code” run by the .NET Common Language Runtime and written in C#, VB.NET, or one of the other .NET languages.
Please, people, don’t confuse .NET the marketing term with .NET the programming platform. NOT THE SAME THING. I blame Microsoft for the confusion, but if you’re going to criticize something (like the .NET Common Language Runtime, Framework, C#, etc.) then please know what you’re talking about and be able to specifically identify it.
it is not that I dislike RAD IDEs, I dislike a 2 gig intall that takes over an hour to finish and almost 2 to uninstall..not to mention a bloated interface that is cluttered with unessisary crap.
Well, I wrote:
>What the HELL? Algol introduced garbage collection? No no no. Lisp had garbage collection years before Algol 68.
And you replied:
I said structural language.
Well, you seem to forget your posts rather quickly. Let’s look again:
Algol introduced garbage collection, block structure, data types, compound statements, n- dimensional, nested statements, BNF,etc…
You then go on to say:
Although the language died, its influence the design of modern structural languages (i.e. C, Pascal, and others) lives on.
You don’t even say that Algol is a structured language, you say it influenced the design of modern languages. Nowhere do the words “structural language” appear in your first statement. However, what words do appear? These:
Algol introduced garbage collection
So, whatever man…
No Eiffel. nice try
Leave Smalltalk in the classroom, where it belongs
Eiffel has influenced jack shit. Smalltalk was the most influential object oriented programming language.
I remember that you and another person here made a claim that injuction can not be appealed, because it is a ruling.
Although I showed a site that proves that is not the case I remember that I couldn’t convince you guys about this.
The judge didn’t comply with the law
No, he actually complied with the law perfectly
Very insightful, thanks. The judge did comply with the law perfectly, somehow.
So that we started to get 2 bullets of .NET pushing news on OSNews every week rather than usual one. : ))))
OSNews has been backing .NET for a long time, since they probably have connections with Mono team and Ximian. BUT, they cannot see its not working at all.
Do whatever you do, say whatever you say, no one is using .NET around, and everyone is migrating to Linux and Java, at least here, in Europe.
I cannot understand why are people do still not understand that Java is backed by 100s of companies already, and controlled by JCP, which works wonderfully as the past 8 years had shown. Sun is already preparing Java 3. Tiger release (Java 1.5) will encapsulate lots of syntactical sugar of C# which is usefull (not the ones like operator overloading or pointer arithmatic) among many other things. So, there is NO NEED to shift to .NET, (since it means shifting to not robust, not backed up, not ready platform, loosing WORA) while there is Java, since Java can do everything that .NET does as an end product, and backed by 100s of companies.
Actually, the title of the article should be “Is there a hope for C#”, since Java is gaining incredible popularity while C# is at its 0.19 release on Linux. Hehe!
Nuff said, C# can kiss my ass. I will never use .NET, simply because IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE WHEN THERE IS JAVA WHICH IS MATURE, AND HAS WORA. Oh, and I will keep on converting Windows programmers to Java ones. : ))))
The link you provided where quite weak. Anyone who is a programmer can make a list like that for any programming language (especially if it’s not their favorite). Languages are different all have their good and bad sides.
I bet there is pages like that for any language as most people have a language they hold higher than others.
Also it would be nice if he understood why certain features are the way they are before complaining. Maybe he is just using the wrong tool for the job.
CroanoN, I like languages like Java and C#, but Sun is 100% controlling it. Sun can and may charge money for Java. That’s why Apache had a problem with them, since legally Sun is the owner of the technology. So Sun can change the terms if they want to. So don’t think that you somehow any right to use Java forever.
“CroanoN, I like languages like Java and C#, but Sun is 100% controlling it. Sun can and may charge money for Java. That’s why Apache had a problem with them, since legally Sun is the owner of the technology. So Sun can change the terms if they want to. So don’t think that you somehow any right to use Java forever.”
Please go and inspect Java Community Process rules and current projects and voting system etc. There are JSP submissions initiated by Sun, but not realized since the voters such as Nokia, IBM or Oracle didn’t like. So, this basically shows that Java is not controlled 100 percent by Sun.
The same thing with C#. MS can change C# to any direction it wants, and may not submit its changes to ECMA. Note that C# is part of ECMA, but .NET’s lots of very important parts, such as WinForms ADO.NET etc are not submitted to ECMA. Thus, MS, your favourite big brother, is controlling .NET. So, .NET is controlled by ONLY MS.
Besides, the problems between Apache and Sun are solved long ago, since JCP’s new version brought Java to open source more than ever. For instance, there are no problems with JBoss anymore. Other than that, Sun has never created problems for Open Source community. Indeed, they are housing many open source projects, such as OpenOffice, NetBeans, Brazil etc. MS is the one that tries to throw mud in open source community in every possible opportunity. They see them as number one enemy.
Mono, is not .NET implementation. Mono, is .NET-like framework. It will never be 100 percent Windows compatible. So, .NET does not offer WORA in its current form, and NOT EVEN IN THE SAME CATEGORY WITH JAVA.
Of course I will keep on using Java.
One observation, so plain and simple, that should show you why Java did not succeed the way it could have, and why it will fail eventually:
Where are the applications?
A Java VM is, basically, an operating system. I use it only if the applications appeal to me.
Where is the Java mail client capable of taking on Outlook and mutt (or whatever the Linux camp uses this quarter)? Where is the Java office suite that takes on MS Office or OpenOffice? Where is the Java web browser capable of displaying a good percentage of current websites? The Java text editor? (Well, there’s JEdit, but who knows of that one?)
People keep claiming that Java is sooo cool. It might be in the enterprise environment. But for Joe Average User, Java is simply something he never got in contact with – aside from Applets, of course…
“Where are the applications?
A Java VM is, basically, an operating system. I use it only if the applications appeal to me.
Where is the Java mail client capable of taking on Outlook and mutt (or whatever the Linux camp uses this quarter)? Where is the Java office suite that takes on MS Office or OpenOffice? Where is the Java web browser capable of displaying a good percentage of current websites? The Java text editor? (Well, there’s JEdit, but who knows of that one?)”
“A Java VM is, basically, an operating system.”
This is why MS hates it in the first case.
It is easy to throw things out of your ass rather than making a simple search on the Internet just to throw mud on Java in the name of non-existing god’s sake. Right Solar?
Java Text Editors (ALL are free as in beer. There are many, but I will list the first three that comes to my mind):
-JEdit (www.jedit.org) <– JEdit is a wonderful text editor, incredibly customizable, with tens of available plugins.
-Jext (www.jext.org) <– This is my favorite. I used Excelsior – Jet to compile it into Windows native executable. It simply rocks!
-J (http://armedbear-j.sourceforge.net/) <– This is wonderful new text editor for Java. Check out this screenshot for instance: http://armedbear-j.sourceforge.net/j-0.14.0.png
Java e-mail clients: There are many, starting with Squarrel mail. Go and search SourceForge.
“Where is the Java web browser capable of displaying a good percentage of current websites?”
http://www.thinkfree.com
Here is excerpt from their site: “The award-winning ThinkFree Office is an affordable suite of word processing, spreadsheet, and presentation graphics applications. Its powerful, yet easy-to-use applications can seamlessly open, edit, and save directly to the corresponding Microsoft(R) Office file formats like .doc, .xls, and .ppt. ThinkFree Write, Calc and Show allows users to effortlessly exchange files with friends and co-workers using Microsoft Word, Excel and Powerpoint. Its unique, pure Java architecture enables it to run on Windows or Macintosh operating systems. ThinkFree Office features integrated, Internet-based file sharing and storage with end-to-end security.”
NOW, CHECK OUT SWING SIGHTINGS TO BE SURPRISED:
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/sightings/S13.html
DON’T FORGET TO CHECK ALL THE ISSUES!
Yes, yes. Java is dead damn it! It is dead damn it! Dead! Dead! Dead! Damnit!
Poor pathetic enemies of the Sun. : ))))
Most new mobiles shipping in europe now support Java MIDP 1.0 and will end up at 2.0 next year. That is a HUGE number of devices (its hard to find a phone in japan now without a camera, same goes for java).
Count the number of bank smartcards also that carry java engines. Whilst you are at it, GSM cell phone SIM cards are being build on Java.
Lots and lots and lots …
CroanoN, get civilized, will ya? And keep away from that caps-lock key.
How come that people always assume, negative opinion on the chances of a technology is equivalent to not knowing enough about that technology? (I will *NOT* start to rant about how much I know about Java. It is sufficient, just take my word for it.)
The thing is, *you* know where to find all those nifty things. Some others on this site probably know too.
But then again, we know where to find Gentoo Linux, we know what OBOS stands for and we have an idea what differenciates a microkernel from a monolithic kernel.
The thing is, that does not give Java a better penetration on Joe Average User’s desktop. (I *think* I mentioned that guy before… </sarcasm>)
And, CroanoN: Next time, read first and spare the flames. I was not asking for a list of links. Look up “market penetration”, “customer awareness”, and “rhetoric question” in the books.
Oh, and: grow up.
“.NET is like nothing else Microsoft has ever done. ”
That’s because it was created by the same guy (Anders Hejlberg) who originally created Borland’s Delphi, so in essence Microsoft didn’t make C#, Borland did (indirectly)
The reasons are not at all based on technology. They are political: big businesses are afraid of getting more involved with Microsoft.
Sure, Java on the client side was basically still-born. It could have been a good client side language, but a number of factors prevented that (Sun behavior, MS behavior, crappy AWT, bad timing – computers too slow at the time). However, it continues to thrive on the server side. I don’t see this changing anytime soon.
It is pointless to have the debate of which language is “better” because it has so little to do with the outcome. Both Java and C# get the job done. Does it really matter now that Objective-C may have been “better” than C++. On a whole, the market chose C++ because of wider platform support (due mainly to backward C compatibility). Java currently has very good platform support from many large companies (Sun, IBM, BEA, Oracle, etc…). All C# has is MS and the Mono project (MS is huge, but they don’t dominate every market yet). For C# to truly wipe out Java, it will need much wider platform support.
That said, I currently use C++ in my job, but am disgusted by it daily (design wise, its a mess!). I like Java, and I’m very interested in C# though I haven’t used it.
Java in the open source community isn’t all that prevelant. There is very little Java apps, unless you count stuff like Eclipse and LimeWire (which is actually developed largely like a commercial product)
A quick check to freshmeat.net shows 1782 current java projects. Not to mention the stuff at http://jakarta.apache.org. Tomcat is becoming an enterprise level application server.
There is also http://alice.sunlitsurf.com/ , which is one of my personal favorites.
There are plenty of open source products based on java.
Thanks for doing the research on current Java projects. Sometimes people here at OSNews have such a myopic, desktop view of Java; it is disturbing.
How can people say Java is dead and C# is better when they clearly don’t understand the strengths of either?
well, since Java was initialiy intended to be a lamguage for devices, I would say that it is doing very well for itself.
why should joe user even want, let alone NEED to know that they are using Java (save for the splash screen of the VM which can be cusomised by the program to even hide that.
but, what of the question of if C# will survive or even win the “war”?
C# can be implimented by any group that wishes to come out with the software for it….
Borland can make a C# Builder
Ximian has the Mono C# CLR
IBM could add C# to the eclips project
remember C# is just a language, not a platform. .NET is a platform, Mono is a platform, etc. I hope C# does well and I hope that becasue MS focused on making it an end user application centric language that it will do a better job at end user applications than Java which was concieved as an embeded application language.
Croanon,
obviously you are not knowledgable about the issue. Legally Sun owns Java. You can’t use Java name without Sun’s permission. What you say doesn’t contradict what I say. Legally Sun owns Java. end of the discussion. If you didn’t know this before, that’s too bad.
The same thing is not true for C#, C# is free. Anybody can come and implement a superior product. You mention related .net technologies, what are you talking about? What is the connection there?
MS is the one that tries to throw mud in open source community in every possible opportunity
Well, ok I understood that you are a troll, or your thoughts are worthless whatever. But you think Sun is an open source advocate? Hehehe, Sun’s biggest competitor is open source. It is not Microsoft hurting Sun, it is Linux and Intel.
Mono should not be windows compatible because as you probably don’t know, .net is a platform independent environment, including C#.
Sure I also use Java. I don’t use my big brother’s C#. My big brother will get angry with me, but who cares. But I think you should use C# and drop java all together, since I think you lower the general IQ of Java developer community. Until I start using C#, you can stay there.
> why should joe user even want, let alone NEED to know
> that they are using Java…
…because this is called “Customer Awareness”, which is crucial for success of such a technology?
Today it is Joe Average User that is not aware that all the fine stuff he is using on his desktop actually is Java software.
Tomorrow that same Joe Average User is a decision maker elsewhere that is asked to judge the applicability of Java for XYZ. “Java? Isn’t that just Applets?”
(Now, don’t give me the “competence” word. Decisions are *seldom* made based on competence, at least those I had the pleasure to experience so far.)
SHORT ANSWER FOR SERGIO:
Hi Sergio.
Sure Sergio.
Bye Sergio.
LONG ANSWER FOR INTELLIGENT PEOPLE:
“Legally Sun owns Java. You can’t use Java name without Sun’s permission. What you say doesn’t contradict what I say. Legally Sun owns Java. end of the discussion.”
I didn’t say that Sun does not own Java. I said Sun is not the only force in the evolution of Java, since Java, although owned by the Sun, is controlled by JCP members. (IBM, Nokia, Sony, Oracle, Bea, HP, Pramati, Macromedia etc. + Gifted individuals – MS).
“The same thing is not true for C#, C# is free. Anybody can come and implement a superior product.”
Yes, but MS can change the C# spec in the next release and may not give it to ECMA, and uses the new version in the new version of .NET.
“You mention related .net technologies, what are you talking about? What is the connection there?”
Connection: Java Framework->.NET framework (Not Mono, Mono is .NET-like framework, not 100 percent .NET compatible). If we are comparing .NET and Java as a framework owned by some firm.
“Well, ok I understood that you are a troll, or your thoughts are worthless whatever.”{
NO, I’M NOT A TROLL, SO FUCK OFF!
“But you think Sun is an open source advocate? Hehehe, Sun’s biggest competitor iopen source. It is not Microsoft hurting Sun, it is Linux and Intel.”
Yes, I do think that Sun is an open source advocate. Here is the proof. PLEASE CHECK IT OUT:
http://www.sunsource.net/
Sun is trying to change its business model to be able to exist and function with Open Source, as they know that it is impossible to survive in the future otherwise. For instance, Netbeans -> Sun One Studio, and Open Office -> Star Office are very good examples. MS, on the other hand, is simply trying to kill Open Source.
“Mono should not be windows compatible because as you probably don’t know, .net is a platform independent environment, including C#.”
I know every single deepest detail of .NET. Everything till the smallest details. Anybody can quiz me. .NET is NOT platform independent environment because of the following reasons:
1. MS won’t let it.
2. Some parts of it is highly bound to Windows and disgusting legacy Windows architecture. For instance, WinForms. It is based on nightmarish Win32 GUI to be compatible. It is very hard, well, sometimes impossible, to implement it over different windowing frameworks, such as GTK, Carbon etc.
“Sure I also use Java. I don’t use my big brother’s C#. My big brother will get angry with me, but who cares. But I think you should use C# and drop java all together, since I think you lower the general IQ of Java developer community. Until I start using C#, you can stay there.”
I wonder if he knows what ‘big brother’ refers to. Sometimes I feel like I am wasting my breath by talking people who don’t even know who Orwell is.
“Java is here with us for 10 years. You still believe it will be the language of the future? So far, nothing has shown that.”
Oh, 98 percent of the smart cards, more than 80 percent of the Mobiles, all the application server implementations apart from MS’s are Java based.
There are many very good Java client side programs, I’ve been using 8-10 of them in the last 2 years on different platforms.
Please open your eyes and look around Eugenia. It already is the language of the future.
“Still, in many cases I see Java as an evolution to C++. As I see C++ as an evolution to C. And C as a nice alternative to Pascal. However, on the same grounds, I see C# as the evolution over Java. C# as a language (forget the API) is a great language. And that, for programming in general, is a good thing. Evolution.”
Well, C# is mixture of Java and C++ and some not so important improvements. It is not an evolution. Java was evolution, because it moved forward. C# is not, since it contains elements from before Java + features which introduce bugs in large projects.
Java is not staying still. It is evolving as well. Java Tiger 1.5 will incorporate some features of C# (Nice ones. Not the idiotic ones such as operator overloading and pointer arithmetic) + it will introduce completely new idioms. Most of the syntactical sugar introduced by C# can be much more efficiently and effectively simulated by modern IDEs with refactoring capabilities, such as Eclipse. http://www.eclipse.org
Thus, C# is completely useless. From the framework point of view, .NET is not even in the same category with Java, since it does not offer WORA. Mono, will not be 100 percent .NET compatible. So, it is not .NET implementation. It is .NET-like implementation (Oh, ask Miguel the unmatched genius.)
I say power to the people – Java will eventually be replaced by the language of the people, something like Python, which can be implemented by a 3-year-old, and with faster hardware of the future it won’t make a difference if you are running something C-based or Python-based, the speed will be difference will be too small. And Java will eventually go the way of Ada. Sure, you can run some tight little C code and it would take a pile of Python to replicate, but then ask yourself – if you are designing a huge project who has the time to lay down a thick forest of C? Put together super simple lego bricks in Python and you’ve got transparency and ease of overview on your project – so from this point of view what you give up in tweakability of C you gain in design ease of C++, and then Java goes from there, and Python takes it further. Really, Java is just a stopping station on the way to Python and beyond – though given how simple yet powerful Python is, I don’t think there’s that much further to go along that axis. In any case, Java will outlive its usefulness.
I hope your last post will also get moderated down.
NO, I’M NOT A TROLL, SO FUCK OFF!
Never ever use the f* word. I don’t think any mod will allow you to use that word, and it is a useless stupid word. It doesn’t make your argument any better. Actually it makes you a better troll, since only real trolls would use that word.
I couldn’t find much serious idea that you mentioned that worths to reply. The only thing is the idea that Microsoft can not extend anything for windows. That’s absurd, since Apple also extends Java for Mac OS X, Aqua interface. IBM has also extensions for Java, very absurd extensions actually. I myself make extensions to it. You can’t run my extension in every platform you like, not even Windows. Maybe Sun will sue me too.
))
I should add that my last post was a little tongue in cheek – but only a little. Basically, it is a silly argument to compare languages unless they are in the same category (for example interpreted languages, not simply OO). Otherwise, a given language is better for a GIVEN TASK, not one language best for everything. You can also mix them – and I find mixing f.ex. Java and Python to be very useful. Now we can talk about platforms and here you can talk about Java being displaced as a platform, but frankly that’s still a ways off if ever.
“Never ever use the f* word. I don’t think any mod will allow you to use that word, and it is a useless stupid word. It doesn’t make your argument any better. Actually it makes you a better troll, since only real trolls would use that word.”
I use f* work, which is FUCK, with pleasure, and see no problem using it. I don’t believe that using it would make my argument any better. I just use it because I feel like it. : )
Go and get your logic courses if you had any. The fact that trolls use the word FUCK doesn’t necessarily make me a troll for I use it with euforia.
“I couldn’t find much serious idea that you mentioned that worths to reply. The only thing is the idea that Microsoft can not extend anything for windows. That’s absurd, since Apple also extends Java for Mac OS X, Aqua interface. IBM has also extensions for Java, very absurd extensions actually. I myself make extensions to it. You can’t run my extension in every platform you like, not even Windows. Maybe Sun will sue me too.
)) ”
There is nothing wrong with extending Java. For instance Apple, IBM, Oracle, Sony, Nokia etc. has their own extensions for their own hw/sw products. MS also can extend Java, no problem with it. But MS, aka unethical bunch of monopolistic idiots, did not include the MUST packages for the final product to be called “Java”, such as JNI and RMI, since those would open up the doors of interoperability with other hw/sw platforms, aka, the main theme of nightmares of Billy the McCarty.
Phew. How many times it should be said for your perceptive systems to carry it to your cognitive ones so that you can perform that miraculous act called “to understand”.
Nuff.
“I say power to the people – Java will eventually be replaced by the language of the people, something like Python, which can be implemented by a 3-year-old, and with faster hardware of the future it won’t make a difference if you are running something C-based or Python-based, the speed will be difference will be too small. And Java will eventually go the way of Ada. Sure, you can run some tight little C code and it would take a pile of Python to replicate, but then ask yourself – if you are designing a huge project who has the time to lay down a thick forest of C? Put together super simple lego bricks in Python and you’ve got transparency and ease of overview on your project – so from this point of view what you give up in tweakability of C you gain in design ease of C++, and then Java goes from there, and Python takes it further. Really, Java is just a stopping station on the way to Python and beyond – though given how simple yet powerful Python is, I don’t think there’s that much further to go along that axis. In any case, Java will outlive its usefulness.”
Right stopdabombing, this may happen. But it will take time. Actually, there will be time, which we will see some language powerful enough to replace Java (can be python, Perl, or something new), but C#, basically, is not it.
mario: The reasons are not at all based on technology. They are political: big businesses are afraid of getting more involved with Microsoft.
Unless you are in direct competition with Microsoft, really why should big businesses be afraid of Microsoft? You provided no proof.
snodgrass: A quick check to freshmeat.net shows 1782 current java projects. Not to mention the stuff at http://jakarta.apache.org. Tomcat is becoming an enterprise level application server.
Okay, now compare that with C, C++, Python, etc. (Going through the list BTW, most of the Java apps are reinvention of the wheels).
snodgrass: There are plenty of open source products based on java.
Never ever ever said there wasn’t plenty of open source Java apps. I’m saying the big ones are those support directly or indirectly by a large corporation.
Ironoclast: How can people say Java is dead and C# is better when they clearly don’t understand the strengths of either?
Snodgrass replied to me. I never once implied Java was dead or that C# was better. especially the latter, since I have not use extensively both C# and Java.
deb-man: remember C# is just a language, not a platform.
Finally! One of the most inteligent statement made in this thread!
Sergio: It is not Microsoft hurting Sun, it is Linux and Intel.
And IBM.
CroanoNI said Sun is not the only force in the evolution of Java, since Java, although owned by the Sun, is controlled by JCP members. (IBM, Nokia, Sony, Oracle, Bea, HP, Pramati, Macromedia etc. + Gifted individuals – MS).
The JCP was crafted by Sun after C# was admited into the EMCA as a open standard. However, JCP remains to be Sun-dominanted. You can suggest what you want, however if it goes against what Sun would like, sayonara to that suggestion (though matter how good it is). IBM contributed a lot to Java, and the only reason why Sun accepted it is because they have everything to gain from it.
They may not be the only force in Java’s evolution, but they are certaining the strongest force in it.
Besides, Microsoft was never a member of the JCP we know today. http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/members/M
CroanoN: Yes, but MS can change the C# spec in the next release and may not give it to ECMA, and uses the new version in the new version of .NET.
True, but it can no longer claim it is the same C# as the one under the EMCA. EMCA is much stricker than that. If Microsoft comes out and make a incompatible upgrade (something i doubt because Microsoft like backwards compatibility and try to keep it as much as possible), it doesn’t make C# a non-open propreitary standard. EMCA members can still participate in its evolution as well as implement it.
CroanoN: Yes, I do think that Sun is an open source advocate.
Many companies in Sun’s position become open source “advocates”. Does it mean they support it? Does it mean they agree with it? Hell no. It’s business.
CroanoN: MS, on the other hand, is simply trying to kill Open Source.
Actually, they tried to kill Free Software. They failed, they now try to compete and outsmart it. Just a question, can any other company have similar rights, license-point-of-view, as Sun on netBeans and OOo?
CroanoN: 1. MS won’t let it.
That’s not all that technical, isn’t it?
CroanoN: 2. Some parts of it is highly bound to Windows and disgusting legacy Windows architecture.
In some cases true. This means developers can mix Win32 and .NET. But as for Windows components, I wonder how Mono manage to dump DOM for CORBA (or Bonobo later on) in such a short time?
CroanoN: Oh, 98 percent of the smart cards, more than 80 percent of the Mobiles, all the application server implementations apart from MS’s are Java based.
The article talks mainly about the desktop. You mentioned the enterprise and embedded. You can run J2EE fine on Windows 2000 server, Advance Server and Database, BTW.
Sergio: Actually it makes you a better troll, since only real trolls would use that word.
Opps, I’m a troll (I only use the word when I get really really angry. Eugenia also used the word several times).
MS also can extend Java, no problem with it. But MS, aka unethical bunch of monopolistic idiots, did not include the MUST packages for the final product to be called “Java”, such as JNI and RMI, since those would open up the doors of interoperability with other hw/sw platforms, aka, the main theme of nightmares of Billy the McCarty.
Both JNI and RMI aren’t exactly WORA. They are used chiefly to access APIs of the platform. I don’t know any J2SE application that uses JNI and RMI and still is WORA. Besides, even if it is ethical or legal under antitrust laws, it is illegal under contract laws. Sun could have in its settlement, forced Microsoft to comply with the contract. They didn’t.
CroanoN: Actually, there will be time, which we will see some language powerful enough to replace Java (can be python, Perl, or something new), but C#, basically, is not it.
if the whole world judged Java for its first release, nobody would be using it. What makes you think C# is stagnant, cannot be more powerful than it is today?
“The JCP was crafted by Sun after C# was admited into the EMCA as a open standard.”
Please read some before you open your mouth. JCP was there from the first day of Java.
“However, JCP remains to be Sun-dominanted. You can suggest what you want, however if it goes against what Sun would like, sayonara to that suggestion (though matter how good it is).”
Please read some before you open your mouth. All the related parties have equally weighted votes in JCP, but Sun has a priviledge to veto. They never used that right, since it is there if some forces (like MS) try to conquer java from inside the castle, like trojan horse.
“IBM contributed a lot to Java, and the only reason why Sun accepted it is because they have everything to gain from it.
They may not be the only force in Java’s evolution, but they are certaining the strongest force in it.”
Please read some before you open your mouth. Of course they are the strongest force, since they own it, but all the JCP members together control java equaly.
Besides, Microsoft was never a member of the JCP we know today. http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/members/M
Thats why I said (IBM, Nokia, Sony, Oracle, Bea, HP, Pramati, Macromedia etc. + Gifted individuals – MS) You know what does ‘-‘ means right? This, actually forms a perfect example why OPERATOR OVERLOADING do not work. You loaded minus operator different semantics, since can carry ambiguous meanings.
CroanoN: Yes, but MS can change the C# spec in the next release and may not give it to ECMA, and uses the new version in the new version of .NET.
True, but it can no longer claim it is the same C# as the one under the EMCA. EMCA is much stricker than that. If Microsoft comes out and make a incompatible upgrade (something i doubt because Microsoft like backwards compatibility and try to keep it as much as possible), it doesn’t make C# a non-open propreitary standard. EMCA members can still participate in its evolution as well as implement it.
Yes, and only MS will benefit from it, since C# programs written for Linux will work for Windose, but Windose programs with uncompatible C# will not work for Linux etc. Something you doubt? Why? They did it with HTML, Kerberos etc. Ask Kerberos team what they did. By the way, Kerberos was also protected by standards body. In short, standards my ass.
CroanoN: Yes, I do think that Sun is an open source advocate.
Many companies in Sun’s position become open source “advocates”. Does it mean they support it? Does it mean they agree with it? Hell no. It’s business.
In all the cases, Sun is integrating its future with Open Source, and housing myriad open source projects, UNLIKE MS. Business or not.
The article talks mainly about the desktop. You mentioned the enterprise and embedded. You can run J2EE fine on Windows 2000 server, Advance Server and Database, BTW.
And there are many great desktop Java applications, and their number is increasing day by day as Swing Sightings link I have sent proves.
Both JNI and RMI aren’t exactly WORA. They are used chiefly to access APIs of the platform. Besides, even if it is ethical or legal under antitrust laws, it is illegal under contract laws. Sun could have in its settlement, forced Microsoft to comply with the contract. They didn’t.
First of all, both MUST be implemented, and MS said they will implement them. They simply lied. Second, JNI’s one usage is accessing api’s of the platform. There are many other usages, like accessing C, C++ libraries. RMI has no relation with accessing api’s of the platform. It is like CORBA or DCOM-like middleware framework. DCOM works for one OS (guess which) with couple of languages, RMI works for all Java OSs, with only one language: Java. This has advantages, since the code can be downloaded on the run time to participant distributed system agents. This is exactly why MS didn’t implement it. It would open interoperability with other platforms.
I don’t know any J2SE application that uses JNI and RMI and still is WORA.
I know many.
If the whole world judged Java for its first release, nobody would be using it. What makes you think C# is stagnant, cannot be more powerful than it is today?
I didn’t say it can’t be more powerful than it is today. I said, it doesn’t offer anything great to move from Java to C#, loose all the 8 year collective knowledge, product, and ready to use base of Java, and maybe the most important, loose WORA. Also, C# has some “features” which are not regarded as features, since they introduce bugs. I won’t use it basically.
CroanoN, you little troll, fuck you idiot. CroanoN, you know a little java, and try to teach me what is java and what is not. You didn’t know even Java is owned by Sun until I told you, you fucking idiot.
Please read some before you open your mouth.
If that’s the case then SHUT THE FUCK UP JCP was crafted after C# was admitted, end of the story.
JCP members together control java equaly
Oh really? You think you can match the power of IBM with others. That’s stupid.
Something you doubt? Why? They did it with HTML, Kerberos etc. Ask Kerberos team what they did. By the way, Kerberos was also protected by standards body. In short, standards my ass.
They didn’t do anything with HTML, what the hell are you talking about, making up stories. Millions of people develop their site in Frontpage, or Windows products and it works perfectly on any browser, as long as the guy doesn’t screw it up. You hate standards and that shows your understanding of the world.
In all the cases, Sun is integrating its future with Open Source, and housing myriad open source projects, UNLIKE MS. Business or not.
Oh yeah, that’s why they were reluctant when Apache pressured them to make sure they are ok with their java projects. After Apache complained to the public Sun complied with Apache’s demands. Learn the facts first idiot.
And there are many great desktop Java applications, and their number is increasing day by day as Swing Sightings link I have sent proves
It doesn’t prove anything. Everybody is already aware of those applications. Can you drag and drop a file into jedit? Noooooooooo. Your peanut brain may attempt to compare visual studio and jedit, but everybody knows the fact.
This is exactly why MS didn’t implement it
Wow, you are really really “- smart”. There is a contract which Sun didn’t sue over these reasons, and you say Sun is an idiot because MS didn’t comply with the contract. You know the operator overloading, so you would understand what I mean.
Also, C# has some “features” which are not regarded as features, since they introduce bugs
Do you know who designed and developed C#. You are nothing compared to that guy. What you say doesn’t even count as an opinion. That’s why you post here, because this is the only place you can raise your voice. Try to publish a paper in a conference which proves what you say. People who did it for Java, such as showing that Java is not strongly typed due to a problem in class loading mechanism, did get their papers published. Since you are soooo -smart, I am pretty sure you can get your paper published. Well maybe you don’t know even a single conference, or what a paper is. Ok, forget about it, I didn’t think you can publish anything, all you will do is code some java programs and sound like you do know something. Hehe.
“CroanoN, you little troll, fuck you idiot.”
Oh! Another unmatched genius in OSNews! : )))) I am not a troll dear. Pick up a dict and look it up.
“CroanoN, you know a little java, and try to teach me what is java and what is not. You didn’t know even Java is owned by Sun until I told you, you fucking idiot.”
Serge, I know Java very well. Actually I can even write JVM if I want and have time. You can test my knowledge if you want to rather than throwing assumptions from your ass.
“If that’s the case then SHUT THE FUCK UP JCP was crafted after C# was admitted, end of the story.”
Go and read some before opening up your mouth. JCP was there from the first day of Java, the latest version 2.5 brought many flexibilities for open source community, since Apache was pushing Sun, and Sun decided to direct its business model to interoperate with open source. Even if it was true, the end result counts.
“JCP members together control java equaly
Oh really? You think you can match the power of IBM with others. That’s stupid.”
Oh really? Do you know what is the thing called voting? All the participating parties have equally weighted votes. It is basic and clear. Even for you I guess.
“They didn’t do anything with HTML, what the hell are you talking about, making up stories. Millions of people develop their site in Frontpage, or Windows products and it works perfectly on any browser, as long as the guy doesn’t screw it up.”
Well, they introduced Windows related extensions to the HTML, because of which web developers are still suffering. They increased man-days related with all the projects since their browser is not W3C compatible, and every project must be tested against IE. Do you know how many web sites are around? They caused millions of dollars of WASTE throughout all the world. Lets assume that they didn’t do anything with HTML. What about Kerberos?
“You hate standards and that shows your understanding of the world.”
I don’t hate standards. I say, standards DO NOT work in all the cases. They DO guarantee the current submissions, but they DO NOT guarantee future of submitted technologies. In many cases, they are not needed, since there is something called de facto standards. For instance VHS is not bound to any standards commitee, but its successful.
“In all the cases, Sun is integrating its future with Open Source, and housing myriad open source projects, UNLIKE MS. Business or not.
Oh yeah, that’s why they were reluctant when Apache pressured them to make sure they are ok with their java projects. After Apache complained to the public Sun complied with Apache’s demands. Learn the facts first idiot.”
Sun must earn money to continue. They did not want to integrate with open source in the beginning as you said, but they SAW that they have no other option. In all the cases, in the end, Sun is integrating its future with Open Source, and housing myriad open source projects, UNLIKE MS.
“And there are many great desktop Java applications, and their number is increasing day by day as Swing Sightings link I have sent proves
It doesn’t prove anything. Everybody is already aware of those applications. Can you drag and drop a file into jedit? Noooooooooo. Your peanut brain may attempt to compare visual studio and jedit, but everybody knows the fact.”
First, JEdit is not an IDE, but it can work as an IDE. Second, drag and drop works in JEdit. There was a bug for Linux, which is fixed now. Third, Visual Studio is a bloated piece of shit, which takes 2GB HD space, and incredibly slow. It doesn’t even have refactoring support. Compare it to IDEA and Eclipse for instance. Eclipse, for instance, is 60MB, and works much faster than VS calamity, and free as in beer, and supported by JCP-like commitee containing all the big IT firms – MS, and has fantastic plug-in support, and works on all Java platforms. : )
“This is exactly why MS didn’t implement it
Wow, you are really really “- smart”. There is a contract which Sun didn’t sue over these reasons, and you say Sun is an idiot because MS didn’t comply with the contract. You know the operator overloading, so you would understand what I mean.”
Sun was preparing to sue MS, then MS payed huge amount of money to Sun, and they had a settlement, which is quite common in US. Go and read some before opening up your mouth.
“Do you know who designed and developed C#.”
Yes, I know.
“You are nothing compared to that guy.”
Where do you know? What do you know about me apart from the things that I revealed about myself? You like assuming don’t you? : )) In the end, does it matter? I know C# very well, and I clearly see that it has features which would lead nasty bugs.
“What you say doesn’t even count as an opinion.”
Simple answer: Fuck off Serge.
“That’s why you post here, because this is the only place you can raise your voice.”
Another assumption. You are pathetic for non-existing god’s sake. : ))
“Try to publish a paper in a conference which proves what you say.”
Where do you know that I didn’t?
“People who did it for Java, such as showing that Java is not strongly typed due to a problem in class loading mechanism, did get their papers published.”
Yes, sure. So, lets move to C#, and forget about a working framework, loose WORA together with 8 years of collective codebase, workforce, products, everything.
“Since you are soooo -smart, I am pretty sure you can get your paper published.”
First, you are using the operator ‘-‘ out of context, that is you are using it in a context in which its semantics does not make any sense at all, second, I have papers published.
“Well maybe you don’t know even a single conference, or what a paper is. Ok, forget about it, I didn’t think you can publish anything, all you will do is code some java programs and sound like you do know something. Hehe.”
I can’t believe the height a human can reach with his/her stupidity sometimes. In short,
Hi Serge,
Sure Serge,
Bye Serge.