Node monitoring is that most BeOS-esque of system services that allows applications to offload the task of watching files and directories for changes. It provides the basis of “live” queries and folders, etc. Axel Dörfler (author of OpenBFS) has checked in a first version document for describing the kernel implementation of node monitoring for OpenBeOS.
Initial Node Monitor Support for OpenBeOS
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
“Node monitoring is that most BeOS-esque of system services that allows applications to offload the task of watching files and directories for changes.”
Most BeOS-esque, except the same functionality (and much more) is provided by BSD kqueues.
Maybe so, but who had it first though? 😉
SGI had file monitoring through the FAM kernel service before BeOS; nowadays FAM is open source and shipped with most Linux distributions. I haven’t used FreeBSD so I can’t say if kqueues were part of BSD before BeOS.
Basically the Be kernel is junk. Where the OS shined was the optimized GUI and the API. However it was also proprietary.
Didn’t have the good old AmigaOS such feature a decade before Be?
Limited scope here, eh? 😉
>Basically the Be kernel is junk
It is not junk, but it could have definately been better. What is junk is its VM implementation and a few other things. The scheduler was an amazing piece of work though.
any limitation removed, was it 4096 only, i’m not sure. I still think limit are good in general in OS but they should be user defined and have the API build around variable limit so that app don’t crash if limit is set low. Why use limit? to keep the user experience friendly free of slowdown. The best would have it indexed to the system cpu/bandwith power.
The kqueue(2) man page says it appeared in FreeBSD 4.1, so I guess BeOS had it first.
A question about kqueue: does KDE on FreeBSD use it now? It used to be that FAM was a dependency of KDE when using the port. However, it no longer is. I assume KDE’s been patched to make use of kqueue, but I don’t know for sure.
Regardless of the history of node monitoring, I think OBOS is well on track of delivering an open source implementation of a darn good OS. We each milestone the community is closer to reaching R1. A party like none you’ve ever seen will grace the launch of R1. After R1, well, thats when the real fun starts.
Sing along now:
Things….can only get better…now that I’ve found you. He he, sure beats Rolling Stones and “Start me up…”
I think the title says it all. Keep it comming guys and one day life on the desktop will be much nicer.
I remember some type of node monitoring in the Amiga, but almost no programs used it. It is no good for Linux/BSD/??? os users claiming that they had it first before BeOS if it was not used, and again for user define attributes. Only on BeOS are these features really being taken advantage of by the users of the OS. That is why BeOS still is my main OS, moving to an OS that does not let me set up live queries just is not in my books, and if attributes are not set by the programs I use then live queries are of limited use. I need both, and BeOS and none of the other OSes give me that.
Axel is like the engerizer bunny … he keeps on ticking
I’m amazed at the rate of tangible progress in the OpenBEOS project! It’s nice that they’ve already got so much documentation (courtesy Be, Inc
and a solid foundation for testing (also courtesy Be, Inc) but the best thing of all is that OpenBEOS has a chance of reaching Windows users, once R1 is achieved..
Live queries are an essential ingredient in providing the perception of amazing GUI responsiveness under BeOS. Aggressive multithreading is the other half of that, and it’s something I wish those Xfree86 guys would get a handle on (not to beat a dead horse..)
Whatever other people say is irrelevant. You OBOS people are doing RELLY well. Keep up the great work. We’re all depending on you!
I didn’t realize that the Amiga had node monitoring, and I don’t recall anything in my studies of its API.
Which library contained this feature and which applications used it?
The Amiga didn’t have node monitoring, did it?
I was just musing over the entire issue of node monitoring this morning with the fellows at the coffehouse, when I realized that a new issue of BeDoper was out at http://www.404company.com/bedoper
The guy’s name is Axel, and his last name has umlauts. How much cooler can you get?
The guy’s name is Axel, and his last name has umlauts. How much cooler can you get?
Yeah, my first post sounded like I was downplaying the work that was going on here. Kudos to the BeOS team, once again.
Seems like this Axel Dörfler is singlehandedly writing most of OpenBeOS.
Node monitor support is really nice, something really important in a good multithreaded environment. I’ve been doing some os design in my own spare time and I can’t think of a system without this feature, it’s just not complete then.
But…yes, there’s a but…there’s only one person with a cooler name, and that’s Axel Foley.
Hey guys, Apple is stealing BeOS ideas with their centeralised Address book, lets sue Apple for US$11mil on 2 counts – the centeralsised Address book and the blinkity CPU monitoring lights on the Xserve. If only we could find an origional BeBox that was sold we could have a case. Btw I’ve got a copy of BeOS PR1 that may be of use in our case. Lets try to buy the BeOS team, and bring back Be Inc Mark II.
There is one instance of update notification on the Amiga which I very much appreciate. AmiTCP/IP will check its configuration files for updates and reload them automatically.
I long for this feature whenever I change configs on my BSD boxes and have to do a tedious, stone-age ritual of “ps | grep inetd”, then “kill -HUP (process ID)”.
@ Eugenia
> Maybe so, but who had it first though? 😉
AmigaOS has hat it since it’s 2.04 version, circa 1990.
Rico: Are you Rico Tudor? hehe
David Hunter: Apple already stole Dominic Giampaolo too (let’s hurry in create a new BeBox)
Anon Coward: Junk? No. Only until today I never saw BeOS benchmarks with others OSs (But really VM suck a lot!). Ok, BeOS was proprietary, but OpenBeOS isn’t.
Eugenia: Can I re-use BeOS kernel code in assembler? (I did reverse eng… you understand! hehe)
AlienSoldier: I agree! Axel, please comment it!
Sikosis: Oh! I agree with Daniel: Axel is codename of ten men!
riggits: Is good have documentation and some BeOS code from Be.
Quick note: new BlueEyedOS website design soon… (you will like!)
bye!
Michael Vinícius de Oliveira
~ BlueEyedOS.com Webmaster ~
@ Jason Gade
> I didn’t realize that the Amiga had node monitoring, and I
> don’t recall anything in my studies of its API.
>
> Which library contained this feature and which
> applications used it?
The library in question is dos.library, the functions in question are StartNotify() and EndNotify().
http://www.innoidea.hu/subsites/amiga/developer/phpwebdev.php?keywo…
http://www.innoidea.hu/subsites/amiga/developer/phpwebdev.php?keywo…
Well, the Amiga (OS2.0) had it if the underlying filesystem supported the necessary DOS packets (so it worked with FFS but not the OFS). BeOS, whilst not an Amiga clone or anything like that, was clearly inspired by the Amiga, so its no real surprise to find features of the Amiga in BeOS.
SGI Irix had fam/imon support in the early nineties…
-fooks
Where are some screen shots?
How come now that you are “not working so much on OSNews” you seem to be the only one posting any news?
I mean, it’s good and all but you used to post less news back when you were supposed to be working fulltime
> SGI Irix had fam/imon support in the early nineties…
How much early is 1990 (AmigaOS’ implementation of this) for you?
Thanks, Fabio. I haven’t used my Amiga for years, and I never really developed for it, but I loved to read the books on the API and features. That’s one I missed.
Just another reason to love Amiga. I really oughta shell out the $$ for the Amiga Forever CD.
Eugenia, a while back (or, now that I think about it, not so long ago) you were rather pessimistic about the OpenBeOS project, citing concerns that they didn’t know what they were getting into, etc. I’ve noticed an awful lot of OpenBeOS development (posted on OSNews by you predominately), and I wanted to know what your current stance is. Do you still think that it will fail, or do you think that it actually might have a chance?
How come nobody has ported OpenTracker yet if kqueue is so much like Be’s node monitor? Isn’t the lack of BeOS node monitor-like functionality in the FreeBSD kernel the primary reason?
I know Eugenia will speak for herself, but i recall her saying how she and her husband felt because of all the empty promises, broken promises they experienced with Be, Inc.
I have been skeptical too. But, I’m ecstatic about the concrete progress that has been made.
Be started working on the Kernel in 1991, how fast they put Node monitoring in I leave it up to your imagination.
>>>>>
How come nobody has ported OpenTracker yet if kqueue is so much like Be’s node monitor? Isn’t the lack of BeOS node monitor-like functionality in the FreeBSD kernel the primary reason?
<<<<<
In order to do this you’d also need to port or wrap large parts of the BeOS API. Have fun.
All of you people proclaiming that the OBOS team is on track to do this and making strides to do that, blah blah blah based on this news blurb need to go back and read it again.
OBOS doesn’t have node monitoring. All it has is a checked in document describing how node monitoring can possibly be implemented. It’s a start on design and a document with some structure pseduo-code.
The distance between this document and a working node monitoring system is vast. I’m not saying that the OBOS team can’t do it, all I’m saying is that they haven’t yet done it. Save your accolades for when it’s working. Or, is the creation of documents really that uplifting to you?
Be started working on the Kernel in 1991, how fast they put Node monitoring in I leave it up to your imagination.
The node monitoring was present in the DR days (1995). But the filesystem was really crappy until the rewrite in the AA (Advanced Access) series. Either way, it’s safe to say that node monitoring was not thought up by Be.
-fooks
From the OpenBeOS website:
Axel Dörfler has just recently checked in the kernel core code needed to support node monitoring. Here are his comments:
We now have an almost completely working node monitoring implementation. Only support for B_WATCH_MOUNT is still missing (but is very easy to do).
I’ve also added node monitoring support to the rootfs, so there happens something if you run the test app “monitor_test” (not included in the boot file).
> How come now that you are “not working so much on OSNews” you seem to be the only one posting any news?
I explained this a couple of days ago. I am NOT writing long articles or interacting with companies anymore. I just post newsbits. Which take literally NO time!
> Do you still think that it will fail, or do you think that it actually might have a chance?
The answer is two folded. If you are asking me if OBOS will be “ready” with gfx and everything in 1 year (as OpenBeOS claims after 1.5 years of development already) then NO, I don’t believe they will do it. OSes take YEARS to make them just usable.
If you are asking me if OBOS might ONE DAY (in 4-5 years) be usable, I can tell you that if the guys find MORE developers who have OS dev knowledge and keep the enthusiasm, yes, we might see something. But as it is today, I can see only 4-5 people actually having a clue about OS develepment, I see 2-3 more being in between and the rest just staying there staring the stars. You can’t create an OS like that. Check their CVS. No one has made any *real* kernel development since they forked the newOS kernel! Alex (one of the 4-5 devs who DO have a clue about things in the whole team) had to finish the OpenBFS and then get all dirty with node monitoring and kernel development because the kernel team seem to not have a clue as to how to proceed.
As for the app_server, after 1.5 years, is still in the drawing board pretty much. I am really sick seeing all these “hurrayh” posts on other news sites about the “progress” of the app_server when in reality this progress is truly minimal. And something you might not know: Benoit Schilings, who did the first app_server for BeOS in 1993, he did it in ONE weekend. Sure, it was a hack, sure he did it in a weekend because JLG told him that on Monday they had to show something to the investors, but he DID it. Today’s app_server is based on that “hack” Benoit did back then actually. DarkWym after 1.5 years, has very little to show for regarding the app_server. I LIKE DarkWym, I HATE to point fingers, but this is something that has to be said. The app_server should have been done right now. End of story. (and no, I am not interested in joining any project, thank you)
Oh, and of course I did not talk about the rest of the kits and parts of the OS which also haven’t seen any real progress. There are some things happening in the media kit and a few other details, but overall, the OpenBeOS project lacks *OS knowledgable* developers and enthusiasm. Just having 4-5 people working and 2-3 more working whenever they remember to do so, well, except a usable graphical OS in 4-5 years…
Benoit Schilings, who did the first app_server for BeOS in 1993, he did it in ONE weekend.
Eugenia … I find this hard to believe. If it’s true, I’m sure we would like to see you prove it…
How could I prove it? I don’t have the diffs of the BeOS CVS. This is what I was told. My husband worked for Benoit in the past at Be, and he also does today, in his new job (not at Palm).
Benoit Schilings isn’t an human. I guess this fact may have impact in the first app_server deadline success.
Benoit didnt have to imitate an app_server, he started with his own idea. It took time to figure out how the app_server worked etc, plus dark wyrm is doing this on his free time. benoit was employed to do this. but eugenia you’re still right – all i’m saying is its harder for the obos guys.
But yes, it’s not the speediest thing moving at OBOS. OTOH, things are getting done, at least according to the (not necessarily even up-to-date) Team Status page.
<<Benoit Schilings isn’t an human. I guess this fact may have impact in the first app_server deadline success.>>
One of his hobbies is astronomy. Could it be Benoit is homesick (and NOT for Be, Inc.)?
ok, so you want a Desktop OS now but you can’t or won’t contribute – surely there are other ways you can ?
ie. Promoting ! Get the bandwagon going … talk about it to everyone, perhaps the person next to you might even know someone who IS capable of helping out.
We don’t need negative comments like, oh it’s gonna take 4-5 years, especially from people who are too close to the situation to comment objectively.
Sikosis GET REAL.
>Promoting it!
This is what I am doing. Why you think this story and others exist on this freaking web site? A web sites that has 10 times more traffic than ALL the BeOS-related news sites put together, huh?
>We don’t need negative comments
WRONG. You need them. This is the commenting section and I am speaking my mind. What I have observed that is happening.
If you are not willing to hear the truth, then my friend, you have _already_ lost the game.
You are the one who needs change his point of view on things, not me. Myself, as a potential future user (let alone as an editorial editor), have every right to comment and critisize the workings of OBOS.
I am not happy about its progress and I write about it. In 1.5 years MORE things should have been ready and they are not. Can’t you see that? If yes, then there is nothng wrong with WRITTING IT. There are people who don’t know about the situation, I make sure they know it. No matter if it will be “negative” or “positive” for OBOS, or for Linux, or for MS, or for Apple. I don’t have favorites. I write things the way they are. FOR EVERYONE.
“In 1.5 years MORE things should have been ready and they are not. Can’t you see that?”
Yes I can. But just cos your hubby got burnt, doesn’t mean you have to fry the community.
And what do you think the people who have never used BeOS think of BeOS after reading your comments.
“Oh … it’s dead, I’ll go back to doing something else. All I ever hear from Eugenia about BeOS/OBOS is how they are never completed.”
>Yes I can
If you CAN, then I CAN write about it! Because you agree with me! It is the truth! Your only objection to my postings is for POLITICAL and FAVORITISM reasons, which I don’t share.
> But just cos your hubby got burnt, doesn’t mean you have to fry the community.
My hubby did not got burnt. In his new job earns more than he was earning at Be. And live him out of this, because my opinions on the matter, are not just mine and JBQs, but the whole ex-Be’s engineering team. Do you think that the ex-Be (now Palm) engineers have any different opinions?? Maybe I should have recorded the laughs we have over dinner, each time we talk about OpenBeOS’ progress, goals and more over the PROMISES.
> “Oh … it’s dead, I’ll go back to doing something else. All I ever hear from Eugenia about BeOS/OBOS is how they are never completed.”
THEN COMPLETE IT. Eugenia is NOT your puppy. Eugenia is noone’s puppy. I haven’t and I won’t lick dicks for any OS company/developers. If you want me to stop writing about the situation, then simply prove me wrong and do the work that is normal to do on 1.5 years of OS development. This is the situation my friend.
It has nothing with the “Eugenia does not like OBOS” crap. Because I PRAY that you DO succeed. But from the moment I don’t see it happening, you CAN’T make me and I WON’T shut up. The situation itself allows me to talk about it. Because the OpenBeOS project has created so much BUBBLING hype around it (with the help of a few other beos related news sites who don’t see the big picture) and gave PROMISES to the userbase like “we will have an alpha in a year” and other such stuff that PISSES ME OFF and I feel REALLY BAD for the user community who actually believe all that crap. What is the part that you don’t understand? OSes take YEARS to develop people. And the 5-8 knowledgable OS devs the OBOS project really have can’t change that fact. It took Be 10 years to bring BeOS to that R5 status, and they had 60 engineers at some point, working full time, and these guys all knew their stuff.
I am trying to be fair to OBOS but I have an obligation to my readers too. They need to know what the hell is (not) happening in the OBOS CVS. Hint: commits.
i think the curious devs and hackers will come to OBOS, but not until further down the line, when the results are more tangible and people can go, “i can help this, this i my level of skill.” so really, the best thing that could happen to OBOS is simply to carry on regardless, doing what they do, slowly getting there. i don’t really have any expectations or timeframe for the project, there’s zeta to tide me over and then maybe we might have something.
you’ve got to be fair on them, it’s all spare time and a hobby for them, why would they then suddenly develop the aptitude of a business out to make cash?
i had a look at the CVS the other day and some kits appear to be doing jack and others are quite busy. it’s true, it’s all to do with what devs you have but at the moment you’ve got to have the real hardcore believers working on it. With more and more code to show, the casual devs will come.
anyway, it’s good news. well done axel.
“Maybe I should have recorded the laughs we have over dinner, each time we talk about OpenBeOS’ progress”
Just quietly – that’s fscked !
you know, if linus had been subject to so much publicity and emotional feedback, I wonder if linux would ever have gotten off the ground. I think every one realizes that OS development is a long and tedious process, if you don’t maybe you have never written a line of code yourself. I love reading the criticism, and the optimism, and sure this OBOS thing is taking a long time, and sure it will be great when there is more to show, but getting so emotional about work one isn’t involved in does nothing to help the project. the live queries in BeOs were a real winner, maybe one of you guys can metion a little technical detail about implementing node monitoring, now that would be interesting to me.
>>lick …
that probably deserved to be modded down…
>Just quietly – that’s fscked !
Well, if you don’t like such behavior from people (and especially ex-Be engineers) then your project should do something about it. Prove me, them and the rest of the unsatisfied users wrong. Do the progress that it is normally expected when you have 34 developers registered and able to commit code and 50-60 more in your mailing list.
This behavior from people is to be expected when you lose your track and you *promise* things that you can’t do or things that require more dev time. It is as simple as that. It has nothing to do with us being “f*cked up” or being “naysayers”. It has to do with the reality as it is and cold calculated logic.
Don’t hate me Sikosis. I don’t hate BeOS or OBOS or you or anyone else. I had given my life for BeOS and you know that. But because I used to like or still like something, doesn’t mean that I will close my eyes and sleep and believe whatever is related to my favorite subject without critisism or evaluation. I am not like that. I was not built to be like that regarding any matter, not just computers. It is the way I am. After so many broken promises all these years from third parties and even Be themselves, I only believe when I see something. When the time might come and I am able to install something and use it then I will say “well done!“. But not before.
*Especially* when your project is spreading out nothing but hype and promises. If I at least was seeing CVS commits on all fronts and real work being done, I would have shut up, even if the OS might still need years to complete. At least I would see the whole team working on what they are supposed to work. But today, this is not the case. Except very few exceptions, mostly from Axel and the media kit guy and 2-3 more people, the rest are taking their time! Well, wake them up for God’s sake or throw them out of the project. When someone commits to something, *even if it’s in his free time*, he should realize that there are some expectations from him and his team members after 1.5 years!
All this is what makes me write all this stuff. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think her name in Eugenia.
I think its about time you put the computer away for a little while and get some fresh air.
That would make you feel better, wouldn’t it? Having no one to shout what’s right that is. Do I sound disturbing to you?
You see, no one likes to be told that reality might be worse than people would like to think. They prefer to live in their own dreamworld. They get seriously disturbed when someone points out flaws in the “ecosystem”.
Think of the rest of us who were dupped by Be Inc and their lack of Business. Musicians who pine for something to bring to the late 90’s what the Atari did for the 80’s. Everyone else who wanted an easy to use OS.
Why the F do we have all these forks in the BeOS branch with talented people working in small clumps doing their own thing to replicate the dream of BeOS? This is the most stupid allocation of intellectual resources I have witnessed and it is also frustrating. Did Be Inc leave such a sorry wake that everyone’s head spun so hard that we had to fragment so?
Bring Yellow Tab/OpenBeOS/BlueEyeOS and the others into a common fold and focus the efforts of many a talented developers onto the one single project. How does the saying go, especially with regards to Microsoft, United we stand and divided we fall. So far I just see some cronic free falling although Yellow Tab is at least prepared to support OpenBeOS in some regards but all I know is I want a successor to BeOS 5 and there is nothing around.
“Bring Yellow Tab/OpenBeOS/BlueEyeOS”
Yes, we would love this, but BlueEyeOS is working on using a Linux kernel and YellowTAB are making a commercial product.
BlueEyeOS and YellowTAB will both be using (and have been I believe) components from OBOS.
So, in reality, OBOS work is getting into the others.
Also, I believe YellowTAB have offered to do the distro for OBOS, but don’t quote me.
RALLY THE TROOPS
Any C++ coders with of any experience (from little to expect) contact me over at http://obos.gravity24hr.com/
We can help you get started writing your first BeOS app to writing something more complicated. The BeOS developer community helps it’s own and I’ve always been able to get an answer to whatever I’m working on.
bugger should have proof read it … expect = expert
[Someone pointed me to this thread because of the Linus comment, but I’ll stray from that…]
Linus was told that the entire design and concept for Linux were stupid and obsolete by a VERY famous and important academic, and they then had a very public flamewar about it.
Meanwhile BSD zealots said Linux was pointless because they had the real UNIX code, and Linux was an inferior clone.
Linus didn’t care because Linus is a hacker.
It’s perfectly normal in hacker circles for your ideas to be described as stupid, useless junk that won’t ever amount to anything. The point is to prove who is the big man by making a difference (e.g. invent software other hackers use or respect) rather than just pretending that we are all equal and all ideas are equally worthwhile.
Code is King. You cannot run design documents, or strategies, or community policy decisions. You cannot use a logo or a GIMP’d screenshot “concept” to replace your operating system. An empty CVS directory is still empty whether the hierarchy is called “OpenBeOS” or “Walter”. Nothing the OpenBeOS project does is worthwhile except to the extent that it results in written code.
Last January I wrote that Michael Phipps had achieved something important by creating a team spirit. Sadly that remains his only significant achievement and it’s not enough. At present rates OpenBeOS is years from completion.
Wow, I find myself agreeing with Eugenia. Must be something in the water.
Why does Eugenia always SHOUT AND HOLLER every other word? And why is she refering to herself in the third person? And why does she think she has to use foul language to get a point across?
What hype and empty promises does OpenBeOS put out? I only see newsitems on their page stating the progress made…
Eugenia, why don’t you just say that in your opinion OBOS should be farther along after 1.5 years and has currently too few experienced developers to finish R1 within the next 1 or 2 years and be done with it?
Why demolishing the morale by overreacting and saying things like that you and your friends have fun laughing at the blood, sweat and tears the OBOS devs put into their project?
You’re like a little boiler-girl that is charging for a few weeks/articles just to go off in an overheated explosion.
Calm down.
Give us a break, will ya?
>What hype and empty promises does OpenBeOS put out?
Read what Phipps has promised about schedules and alphas. Read the forums as to what the community believes that OBOS would have ready 3 months ago already. They have all been overhyped. This is just not right and I won’t allow it to continue. The OBOS people should face the reality and make decisions and actions.
Hey dude,
I’m reading the docs right now, would love to contribute..
I’ve looked at all the BeOS cloners out there and BlueEyed is just plain out to lunch. Using the Linux kernel for a Multimedia OS is a strange concept, I must admit.. something like running Win98 on NTFS I think
I dig the OpenBEOS mentality, but all this wonderful documentation is a little overwhelming right now :p
“Read what Phipps has promised about schedules and alphas.”
Can you point me to an URL?
Especially in the beginning the excitement of it all may have provoked some over-optimistic statements; I agree to that.
But consider that a year old personal opinion written on some “unofficial” BBS wouldn’t be widely considered actively hyping.
No, I don’t have bookmarks of what Phipps is saying each time. It was on BeOSJournal I think last July or on a mewsletter article saying that an alpha would be available before the end of 2002 while last year he had said that the alpha would be available sometime in 2002. But if you check out the status, the project is FAR away from any alphas.
Hinting at a first alpha by the end of 2002 was definately a mistake. However I think Michael Phipps has learned a few things about managing a project of this size in the past year. I don’t think he would give such an optimistic schedule again and I don’t think that lapse warrents the verdict of continuous over-hyping.
I can’t see anything wrong with the community still strongly believing in OpenBeOS and celebrating every babystep and milestone. It may be an important part in keeping the admittedly very few productive developers in a good mood.
Dammit, woman! You got it all wrong! You are supposed to “suck dick” not “lick dick”! No, I dont care what you like, it just feels better for me that way! It’s not a freaking ice-cream cone for God’s sake!
Eugenia you really flipped out this time. You should mod yourself down and threaten to ban yourself for suggesting sexual, um, things. Going over the edge detracts from the point you are trying to make. It makes you look foolish and at the same time overshadows the point you are trying to make.
A word on the (supposed or not) slow OpenBeOS project.
I think the major issue is that since the kernel isn’t ready, and OBOS isn’t self hosting, you can’t just see the progress already made (and the team status page aren’t always up-to-date
). For example, the translation kit is completed (altough still in beta), the print kit is nearly completion, the storage kit is in good development state, and the same applies to the interface kit, the support kit is nearly finished, and so on.
(in chronological order)
> The best would have it indexed to the system cpu/bandwith power.
Sure, that’s a good option.. tha’ts already what BeOS does for other parameters (max number of threads, teams, ports, sems are function of system memory).
> Seems like this Axel Dörfler is singlehandedly writing most of OpenBeOS.
Btw, someone revealed the truth about Axel: in fact it’s the name of an el33t coder group, like what Nicolas Bourbaki was to mathematics ( http://www.giga-usa.com/gigaweb1/quotes2/quautbourbakinicolasx001.h… ) =)))
> Hey guys, Apple is stealing BeOS ideas with their centeralised Address book, lets sue Apple for US$11mil on 2 counts
I just love the idea… though I don’t think any of us can afford suing such a big company 🙁
Any taker ?
Btw, they also stole lots of things on the filesystem (of course they have ex-Be engineers to help them 🙁 )
> “ps | grep inetd”, then “kill -HUP (process ID)”
Don’t you have killall on BSD ?
> Eugenia: Can I re-use BeOS kernel code in assembler? (I did reverse eng… you understand! hehe)
Beware that RE is outlawed in most countries (not in France for specific cases though).
But it doesn’t hurt to inspire you from it =), M****S*** did it for decades without anyone noticing (or just bought companies, even simpler).
> How come nobody has ported OpenTracker yet if kqueue is so much like Be’s node monitor?
AFAIK BSD doesn’t handle fs attributes and indices, which really are needed too to enjoy Tracker.
[lots of rants]
Hey ! we are talking about computers, remember ? just a pile of metal and silicon… it’s not like we’d be talking about G.W.B bombing Irak or something
> This is the most stupid allocation of intellectual resources I have witnessed and it is also frustrating.
A. Tannenbaum said something like this about Linux in the beginning, not for the same reasons though (not to compare anyone here to A.T. or OBOS to Linux, but..)
> Bring Yellow Tab/OpenBeOS/BlueEyeOS and the others into a common fold and focus the efforts of many a talented developers onto the one single project.
Don’t you think we all want that ?
But life is life and not everyone agree on political (=license, …) issues. And btw, we aren’t exactly competitors. Why would http://beunited.org be for, else ?
> Linus was told that the entire design and concept for Linux were stupid and obsolete by a VERY famous and important academic, and they then had a very public flamewar about it.
Yes that was A.T.
Averall it’s true we lack developers (committing developers, and I don’t count myself in this small number yet, mostly due to personal issues, hope that will be fixed someday :^)
Btw, is anyone aware of the interview Mikael Phipps did for http://oncomputers.info ?
> [Not even quoting Elver Loho …]
This is not the place for that type of language. better go flooding windoze newbies forums, and get a life.
Heya,
Well as one of the so called developers who belongs to a team but has not contributed much (1 class woot), I feel suitably chastised by Eugenia. Does it help if one of my new years resolutions is to do more?
But to be more topical, Eugenia are you looking at the right CVS tree? I am seeing lots of check-ins. We still have a way to go but I am seing daily progress.
I have no desire to debate what Michael Phipps may or may not have said, if he was overzealos in setting dates then I say “so what!”. He has brought a lot to the project and has worked hard in keeping those people who are part of this dream of a beos clone focused on the task at hand.
If OpenBeOS fails it will not be because of Michael Phipps
Cheers
David (Somewhat confused as to how some positive new abouts OBOS got turned into a slanging match)
Hi!
Piers: OpenBeOS can join us. We cannot join in OpenBeOS.
Sikosis: “BlueEyeOS is working on using a Linux kernel”
Yes, but see that we have a kernel_server, that run over the Linux, but it’s portable to others OSs (FreeBSD, for example).
Sikosis: “BlueEyeOS and YellowTAB will both be using (and have been I believe) components from OBOS.”
Yes again. But observe that we not using code from “server parts” (no media_server, no app_server, no print_server). We only using minor codes where it’s more classified like tools (status bar code, for example).
See again that today we already have an working app_server, a powerfull and patched Linux kernel, a kernel_server, a complete storage kit, a beta support kit, a OpenGL kit, a modified Mail Daemon Replacement, OpenTracker, a beta interface kit, a complete XML kit, a beta Network Kit, etc.
In 1.5 years, OpenBeOS did it?
Right, OpenBeOS disagree with BlueEyedOS choice of Linux, but NewOS is light years away of be usable (don’t get me wrong! I’m a big fan of NewOS).
Ok, Come you here and say me that Linux is a macrokernel, blah, blah, blah…
Linux, with our kernel_server and some patches IS THE TRUE BeOS kernel (of course, in scheduler aspects BeOS is inbeatable!)
Another Quick Note: Agended to February:- The first beta release with kernel_server+libroot.so+app_server+libbe.so+storage kit WORKING! (and, of course, the new design of our website).
And please: download our kernel_server (blueos.free.fr/kernel_server1.tar.gz) and TEST IT! Report any feedback to [email protected]!
Michael Vinícius de Oliveira
~ BlueEyedOS.com Webmaster ~
>> “ps | grep inetd”, then “kill -HUP (process ID)”
>Don’t you have killall on BSD ?
On NetBSD, it’s:
sh /etc/rc.d/inetd restart
>Do I sound disturbing to you?
YES! I think your starting to get the hint.
>You see, no one likes to be told that reality might be >worse than people would like to think. They prefer to >live in their own dreamworld. They get seriously disturbed >when someone points out flaws in the “ecosystem”.
I agree with you there, however, its not the ecosystem or the BeOS im directing my comments to. It’s you. After seeing all your posts/rants/raves/complaining/etc – you still continue to write pages of a reply. Save your breath – no one cares!
Put the computer away and get some fresh air.
Feel free to browse or download OpenBeOS empty cvs tree.
cvs-z3-d:pserver:[email protected]:/cvsroot/open -beos co current
As for Alpha, while no official release has been made you can compile the OpenBeOS kernel and boot into it. thats been avalible for awhile now.
Plus, the print kit is in late beta.
the BeFS is in late beta
the translator kit is in late beta
most of the bin apps and preferences are there or close.
the media kit is comming along.
the mail daemon and tracker were completed an extreamly
long time ago.
Look at whats already there. OpenBeOS is not vaporware.
and much of it is useable right now.
Call me the eternal optimist if you wish, but in a way I think Eugenia’s criticism can be seen as constructive.
If I were working on a project (any) and heard negative criticism about what I am doing, I would do everything in my power either fix the problems or prove that person wrong. In the case of OBOS, this may mean coding more and faster.
It may be that the “Eugenia effect” does exist after all. See it for yourself:
http://bephotomagic.virtualave.net/index.htm
To the BeOS community: don’t let criticism distract you; the key is to stay positive and stay focused. There is still a lot to do, sure, but we are moving.
Koki
Anyone else getting tired of the barely intelligeable babble of the clueless BlueEyedOS webmaster?
Well yes and no, I do consider they need a person that is better at .. expressing him/herself in the english language, I do not however want to tell them how to choose a spokesperson, BUT if it were my project.. I would hire steve ballmer ;D
Hey lano,
The “barely intelligeable babble” from the BlueEyedOS webmaster is nothing more than a great effort on his part to communicate in a language that is not his.
If you cannot appreciate the effort he is making to communicate with the rest of us, then you have a problem dude.
Koki
Maybe, Koki. But he sure as hell doesn’t do their project a service. I’m sure he does his best and is obviously highly motivated, but you have to question the wisdom of the BlueEyed leader to let him represent the project to the world.
Okay, I think the point of all this is the OpenBeOS should a) post more updates when things actually become usable and b) update their stie to the right status. I know this is hard to keep track of, but it will show the community a steady stream of progress that will be encouraging.
Also, on another note, YellowTAB has a very poor way of releasing information. They, of all the groups, should be releasing status information, and should release a schedule of projected release dates for their OS. Come on, it’s a commercial endevour and their website reflects no progress since dec 22. (except for drivers). If they can’t release a date, then they should release a list of items that need to get accomplished (a roadmap) so that we can see their progress…
I have fleshed out my response to this forum here:
http://www.beosjournal.org/?ct=a&au=2003-01-21-choice
Please feel free to email me privately if you have serious issues with what I have to say.
Let’s not waste any more bandwidth on what should be a united effort on all our parts to provide more choice.
-Chris Simmons,
Avid BeOS User.
The BeOSJournal.
> I could not allow the degradation of a dream to continue even further than it already has, mostly due to the FUD being issued as fact at certain news sites. (You know who you are.)
Which part was FUD Chris? Huh? Wake up please and leave your blind zealotry in your closet before you speak out like that.
It’s not about how much you can code in a weekend, or even 6 months. It’s about following a dream, realizing a goal, and participating in a project that will become fruitful.
Excuse me, but the goal of OpenBeOS was said many times was to create a clone of BeOS ASAP, to fill the BeOS hole in the next very few years. You are talking about a “dream” that “one day” might come true. I am sorry, but OBOS started with goals of “ASAP”.
Having a free OpenBeOS in 5 or 10 years that can barely do what BeOS R5 could do 3 years ago, it is just not satisfactory. OpenBeOS was not created on those grounds. In 10 years the needs of the people will be different. BeOS will just be a toy, as today the free versions of CP/M or DR-DOS are. OpenBeOS does not have the luxury to “take its time”.
I am afraid that we have two different point of views. You like to see it as an “ideal” and as a “heroic stand”, I see it as serious “business” (nothing to do with money, mind you). And while the ideal/morale/whatever might do well, the business and the realization part of it all sucks big time.
lano,
That’s your opinion, and you are entitled to one. But it is something that should be addressed to the project leader, and not in a public forum. He may have his reasons (which you do not know).
Although the language is not perfect, the message does come accross and that is what matters. I am more concerned about the substance rather than the semantics of what is being communicated on a website, especially when we are talking about an open source project based on volunteered time.
I personally recognize and appreciate the time and effort being put by the BEOS webmaster.
Koki
lets talk about what zealotry really is , while I agree with eugenia on this particular topic.
in the NE a zealot is defined as:
“One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and pursues his object with earnestness and ardor; especially, one who is overzealous, or carried away by his zeal; one absorbed in devotion to anything; an enthusiast; a fanatical partisan.”
So by virtue ALL of us commenting here are zealots, absorbed by our own devotion to particular subjects on OS technology.
that includes You my dear devoted Friend.
And you Eugenia should especially take notice of this, since, As you, Chris wrote:
” Please feel free to email me privately if you have serious issues with what I have to say. ”
Whilst you say you want people to behave respectfully , I can’t see why you can’t pass Chris the same respect!
and I consider this whole thread has gone AWOL.
Having a free OpenBeOS in 5 or 10 years that can barely do what BeOS R5 could do 3 years ago, it is just not satisfactory.
… pulling a classical straw man. Maybe you should stick to shouting.
> “Please feel free to email me privately if you have serious issues with what I have to say”
I do not have any “serious” issues.
> “Whilst you say you want people to behave respectfully , I can’t see why you can’t pass Chris the same respect!”
I do respect Chris. And he knows it. But when he is accusing me of FUD, I reply accordingly.
As for me being a zealot, I disagree. I might be a zealot on doing my “job” right and actively say what I think. But I am not OS zealot by any count, so I don’t feel bound to favor anyone. Because this is the topic of zealotry here, an OS, not in general.
“Do you think that the ex-Be (now Palm) engineers have any different opinions?? Maybe I should have recorded the laughs we have over dinner, each time we talk about OpenBeOS’ progress, goals and more over the PROMISES.”
Oh pleeeeaaaaaassssssseeeeee….
Yes, the roadmap was (and IMO still is) very “optimistic”, but expecially ex-Be guys have to SHUT UP!
Be Inc made way more promisses, but thoese were never realized.
Eg.:
05-Aug-96 Metrowerks & Be to Integrate Java into the BeOS
10-May-97 Netscape and Be Debut Netscape FastTrack Server For BeOS
10-Nov-98 Steinberg goes BeOS
10-Nov-98 CINEMA 4D goes BeOS
12-Nov-98 Emagic announces complete support of the BeOS
22-June-99 Be and MetaCreations Announce Strategic Partnership and Bryce 4 for BeOS
Just to name a few “highlights”. Yeah, you wrote “After so many broken promises all these years from third parties and even Be themselves, I only believe when I see something”, but ex-Be guys laughing about OpenBeOS’ promises is like Bin Laden is saying that Saddam Hussein is an evil guy.
I agree with you, about the ~5 developers who are really doing something and about the development time (–> a few years), but OpenBeOS is making progress. It’s not as fast as some people say, but hey…. that was/is the same with StarCraft, Diablo 2, Unreal, Half-Life, Falcon 4.0, Mozilla, GNU/Hurd, and other software titles.
After all, OBOS is just a hobby-OS. The developers code in their spare time. They’re not employed in a company paying them for coding OBOS or get fired.
IMHO, there’s an explaination for the lack of good developers: BeOS was targetted at users, not other developers.
I also really doubt that Linux had thousands of developers payed by Red Hat, SuSE, etc. in the beginning.
im sorry, but talking like that to people here in Sweden is in no way considered respectfull.
and as for you not being a zealot… well I think you just answered it yourself, otherwise you wouldnt be behaving like this, calling it criticism will not make it right.
Im sorry , but it isnt criticism when you “bash” a project like this.
Do you “criticise” morphos on the same basis, no..
I remember that throughout the years morphos promised to keep the bucket full, but it keept on being empty.
It didnt really reach a momentum until recently.
I would like to know the reason behind Your blind hate.
and no, that be inc promised you a load of things will NOT suffice!
this isn’t “be inc”, its a project lead by michael phipps, not JL Gassé!
since you crave answers from companies and projects back and forth.
I demand for the same reason, answers from You.
>but expecially ex-Be guys have to SHUT UP!
WRONG. The Be engineers I am reffering to, are not the people who were doing the decisions. They were doing their job. The stuff you are reffering to were “created” by the management. Not the engineers. The engineers DELIVERED everything they were asked to do. No matter if the management decided to never release them to the public or not.
OpenBeOS guys are not the same as in the Be situation though. They have the liberty to code and deliver immediately to the public CVS. But they don’t. And that’s my problem.
And again, I am not asking people to work for OBOS 24-7. Read my previous comment. OBOS is indeed a hobby OS in its nature, however its goal was/is indeed to deliver something ASAP. But when a person commits to deliver a kit or a class, and after 1.5 years actually delivers from nothing to minimal, I believe that there is a HUGE ISSUE there, that Michael Phipps SHOULD attend to.
>I would like to know the reason behind Your blind hate.
And I suggest you read my previous comments. There is no “blind hate” for OBOS. There is _care_ for OBOS. I have VERY clearly explained my reasoning behind my critisism. If you still don’t get it, then it is your problem.
This is getting WAY OTT. But to add my [insert small amount of local currency here]:
In 10 years, people’s needs will have changed – yes, Microsoft will just have released another bigger, more bloated release of Windows with yet more features stolen from BeOS. [That was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment, there’s no need to reply telling me that it’s not true].
I’m with Chris on this one, and I fully support the smallest progress being reported. Like he says, it gives all who want to see progress on the OSBOS projects hope. Whether the hope is unfounded or not is not the issue.
Eugenia, you still seem very against the whole OBOS project, and although I have read through all of your “arguments”, to me it still isn’t logical. There are no public promises of any timescales, and the coders are volunteers. I listed to the interview with Michael on oncomputers, and the interviewer asked him when he thought they would have a release ready. His reply was similar to “This is an opensource project…can’t predict more than two weeks into the future…all devs are volunteers…but I would love to have a whole package that people can play with by the end of the year”. Read it. Now read it again. This is not a promise in any way, there wasn’t a headline on the OBOS site “OBOS R1 will be released this year!!!” – someone asked the question, and Michael tried to give a good, honest, fully-qualified answer. That’s just the kind of person I want leading the project.
As for the app server, DarkWyrm is doing a great job there, a lot of work needed to be protyped first (when it was originally written in a weekend I guess that doesn’t include all the time taken before that coming up with the architecture, specs and testing protos – which were no doubt as necessary back then as they are for OBOS).
1.5 years may have gone by, but the first copule of months were obviously mainly admin tasks, and then another couple until word got out and the devs started settling down and doing some actually coding. So in about a year of “productive” time we have:
-A nearly-finished filesystem
-Many pref apps done, new StyledEdit done for example
-Lots of important CLI stuff done
-A complete print server
-A pretty complete network stack implementation
-Final AppServer well underway
-Many Interface Kit classes done
-Translation Kit in beta
-Storage kit just about done
-Forked kernel with some BeOS specific stuff done, and some other stuff being changed (VM rewrite)
-Media kit making good progress.
I don’t know quite what you were expecting after 1.5 years of volunteered time, but that’s pretty good for my money. How much have M$ improved windows in that time, even with probably 50x more developers being paid to work on it full time?
Go on OBOS, live the dream.
Simon.
ps
> They have the liberty to code and deliver immediately to the public CVS. But they don’t. And that’s my problem.
They also have the liberty not to code, and to do something else instead. Sometimes they do. I don’t have a problem with that.
It’s their lives, they’re free to do what they want. I’d prefer it if the devs code for OBOS as much as possible, but there’s no way I’m going start shouting at them if they don’t.
>Eugenia, you still seem very against the whole OBOS project
I am not against it. I am just not happy with its progress.
>There are no public promises of any timescales, and the coders are volunteers. I listed to the interview with Michael on oncomputers
Oh really? Is this what he says now? Because last May he was saying other things:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1013
(and this is just one of the two-three instances Phipps promised an alpha in 2002).
And unfortunately, the OpenBeOS progress since last May is not big enough to even foretell when an alpha could be available. In the above link that I found he says “at least”, but on other comments he did he was promising too much for 2002.
In my opinion, Phipps should release a status update and release schedules that are logical to be done in that timeframe wiht the current participation.
I wouldn’t have a single problem if OBOS was saying that “our OS will be good for everyone in 10 years, give or take” and leave it at that. But when they are promising stuff that can’t be done in a single year and they are hyping themselves even more than MS does with .NET, it just gets revolting. I feel that the community is getting false impressions and promises and I won’t let this happen. It is as simple as that. I support OBOS, but I also support the interests of my readers. I won’t join the hype, thank you.
Eugenia,
> they are hyping themselves even more than MS does with .NET
This is downright silly. If OBOS had the money that MS was throwing at their Java Clone we would be able to pay people to write OBOS and would have finished months ago.
You seem rather fixated on some comments that Michael Phipps made nearly a year ago. I cannot understand where you are coming from. OBOS is making slow but steady progress. All the announcements made have been based on actual code developed and committed to the CVS tree. It does not get any more real than that.
Cheers
David
OBOS is getting that shit today, because they promised and they did not deliver. Not for other reasons.
They have more than 50 devs subscribed and only 4-5 do some work and only 5-8 know what the hell they are doing and on top of that, they have the nerve to HYPE (mostly through some BeOS news sites (you know who you are))!
If most of the devs do not deliver and just take space, throw them out of the project and keep those who can and want to code. Again, if this was another OSS project, I wouldn’t suggest to “throw them out”. BUT OBOS has promised things and they NEED to deliver (their goal is to replace BeOS ASAP), or they will have to face my critisism for not meeting these goals in a timely manner. It has nothing to do with “hating OBOS”. Why would I?
IMO, what they need to do is to re-organize themselves. Throw out 90% of the devs and keep the ones who *can* code. Reorganize them on who is working on what and make schedules. And start from the GROUND UP.
Not by making app_servers and Interface Kits and screensavers. Start from the kernel all the way up and have the whole team working on the same kit, just on different things of the kit. Take the things one step at the time instead of trying on all fronts.
So you will see that in 2 months you will have a kernel that does much more than it does today with the current team!
And then, they would have to go to the next kit or part all of them together. All 10 of them….
And after they are high level enough, they can re-create the teams to create the rest of the kits and the… screensavers. If some developers do not have such system software experience but they can help on other high level kits, let them do it. But the main team should work together and organize what needs to be done and do it.
I believe that OBOS requires a re-organization if they want to keep up with the original goals. IF the goals have changed and no one cares about it, sure, do whatever you like. Just don’t you dare hyping on me.
This is my last comment on the subject here.
Where is the link or the reference to this so called promise? I’ve heard that they had hope adn dreams but I never seen a promis…
ass.
Yes, I’ll be in trouble for this. Whaaawww Whaawwww Whawww..
Welcome to the world of software development, were schedules slip, management over-hypes and under-delivers, and the whiny bitch in the corner does nothing to help solve the problem.
Eugenia – If you’re so torn up over the lack of progress and you really do want to see OBOS get finished, heres my suggestion.
Quit posting and slaving away on OS News. I thought you were quitting anyhow. Pick up a keyboard and join OBOS. I’d like to see you join the ranks of the people who are working. I’d like to see you get the project back on track. I’d love to see your name on a CVS commit.
Until that happens, you have absolutely no right to sit here and bash a small group of people who have given a LOT of their time and energy to a project. Simply because the steam dropped off sooner than they expected, and had over-projected their progress dosen’t mean they deserve this.
I can think of more than one company that bet the farm on projections and died from it… I think that’s the problem I think you’re still whining about the focus shift and this is the closest thing you can find to it to complain about.
At any rate, you oh holy Eugenia have no room to sit and bash until you yourself have commited code to the project. And before you come after me claiming I haven’t coded for OBOS, you’re right. I’m not working on OBOS, in the past I didn’t have time. My time is currently filled with other projects which will benefit _all_ OSBOS distros.
Respectfully telling you to shut your pie-hole,
-Bryan
this re-organizing teams is a good idea, after allmost every other kit is at least alpha and most of them beta, but as I see from the status page, the kernel really needs more attention.
I think yellowtab has bought some time to obos guys by updating beos. If they can use this time, we can have obos ready in at the time zeta2 should go out, so they could distribute obos.
anyway, as I say in beshare, GO OBOS!!
I meant, “after ALL ALMOST every other…”
I think it is obvious that Eugenia cares very deeply about the fate or destiny of OBOS. I have not seen her get really upset about anything unless she does really care and if something has possibly been misrepesented. Anyone who uses or used BeOS as their main OS has to care – it is unthinkable to not care.
If you read what she has said, she is not trashing the people who are actually working on the project. Well, she believes it should be re-organized, but her criticism is not aimed at those who are coding and working.
I don’t know because I am not a programmer, for one thing. But, there must be many, many people who feel betrayed by Be, Inc., programmers who feel that way and have ripped themselves away from BeOS in order to move on to something else. That is the only explanation I can think of as to why OBOS has so few people working on it. The OS is beloved by so many, yet there are so few involved. There must be tremendous anger and frustration about what happened with Be, Inc. and I think there are many who were close to Be in one way or another cannot bring themselves to be set up to be let down again.
I think this will help OpenBeOS a bit. Surely there are qualified developers looking for work inbetween jobs that might take a few hundred for a bunch of classes or even a thousand or more for more significant work. Why not?
As for the projections and complaints of the failures of such… oh well. I think Michael Phipps is doing just fine. If he does as Eugenia suggests (dump the non-participants) and reorganizes… well, that might upset the developers that ARE committing work to the code base. Being an optional free time project, people are working on whatever they WANT to. If you piss THOSE people off, what’s the chance they will hang around and continue to work on what they’re told to work on?
Eugenia seems to imply that there are tons of qualified developers out there with the right mentality needed for OBOS and that Michael Phipps just needs to “get them.” I don’t think I believe that.