A ZDNet article details the upcoming arguments in the antitrust suit brought by Sun Microsystems against Microsoft over Microsoft’s treatment of the Java platform. Sun claims that Microsoft has distributed a crippled and incompatible version of Java in its (monopoly) operating system, which serves to undermine the Java platform. The article covers mostly background and history. It’s pretty clear what Sun’s case is, but less obvious how Microsoft will choose to defend itself. This is the latest chapter in an ongoing legal melodrama for Microsoft. Though it’s not actually related to the suits that the Federal Government and several U.S. states filed against Microsoft, the fact that Microsoft has been found to have illegally wielded its monopoly power gives some bite to Sun’s bark. Arguments in the case will begin today in Baltimore.
Ok, let me get this straight. First they sue Microsoft and make them remove Java then they want to sue them to make them put it back in. I just don’t understand Sun’s logic. Why don’t they focus on building better products instead of trying to sue Microsoft all the time? It’s probably fair to say that IBM has made more money off of Java with their application server software and services than Sun ever will. I hear more about Sun’s law suits than I do about their products. Based on the amount of law suits they have started in the last few years I would guess that the budget for their legal dept outweighs the R&D budget by several orders of magnitude. It’s pretty sad when litigation is viewed as a revenue stream.
Sadly, the Java runtime which sits on client machines and is the software which is at the heart of this battle is nearly irrelevant. Most Java development is back end server side stuff anyway. All of the Java based client applications out there are slow as hell and who really uses applets anymore.
I know, I know!
They’ll dump huge sums on money on a pack of vicious lawyers until Sun rolls over and plays dead!
Or, maybe they could just buy all of the outstanding Sun shares. With cash.
There is no logic. The logic may be that they think they will in any case, since they are suing the “evil empire”. So if they sue Microsoft for not including Java they will win, if they sue Microsoft for including Java, they will win, if they sue Microsoft for talking about Java, they will win, writing about Java they will win. I just wish Sun will have a big setback in this court and simply go out of business, because all I hear from Sun is anti-Microsoft statements which doesn’t help anybody in the industry.
Java is a great language, but this case has nothig to do with Java. It is simply something Sun wants to use to protect itself from Microsoft’s competition and continue to sell expensive hardware.
In response to the first post, I’m not sure what the point of a “better product” is if the majority of your market is cut off from you. Microsoft controls more than 90% of the client market, and for a company in that position to actively obstruct distribution of your product is a dangerous thing.
I think Microsoft has a problem here that they’ve created with their own .NET platform. It validates what Sun has been attempting to do with the Java runtime. Being a legal Monopoly, I would imagine that the burden is on Microsoft to explain why their platform is necessary when Suns is not.
No matter how it turns out, I think this one is going to be interesting to watch.
“Ok, let me get this straight. First they sue Microsoft and make them remove Java then they want to sue them to make them put it back in. ”
Sun never sued Microsoft to make them remove Java. They sued Microsoft because the JVM they shipped with Windows violated the Java technology license agreement they had with Sun. Microsoft intentionally crippled the JVM they shipped with Windows to try to undermine Java. Microsoft, rather then ship a JVM that complied with the license, chose to simply remove Java from Windows. Later, as part of the anti-competitive action, they were forced to put Java back into Windows.
I don’t know if you are joking, but saying that to actively obstruct distribution of your product is a dangerous thing is totally wrong. I couldn’t understand how Microsoft obstruct distribution by any means, since you don’t explain it, but the only thing comes to my mind is that Microsoft’s Java was different for Windows and Sun didn’t like it. That issue was already solved, Microsoft stopped developing it. You seem to believe in the hype there.
Now here is the problem. Java was born, people criticized Microsoft for not supporting Java. Stupid Microsoft did support Java, and then as a stupid act, tried to make Java faster on Windows. But now Sun accused them for making Java crippled, Microsoft stopped and developing that Java. Microsoft distrubeted the old Java from the Web, and then Sun sued it because they are distributing it on the Web. Microsoft stopped supporting Java, and now some people accuse them for stopping the support for Java. They stopped putting java in Windows, they got sued. This whole thing is totally stupid and the judge will say the same thing, as a judge said in the anti-trust case.
Sun has zero chance of winning and I think they will have a very hard time explaining their accusations and their past actions.
Microsoft intentionally crippled the JVM they shipped with Windows to try to undermine Java
I am totally suprised with your ability to know for sure that Microsoft intentionally crippled JVM. In that case you probably would say that Microsoft intentionally crippled Windows so that it crashes every so often that people will stop using it.
Microsoft, rather then ship a JVM that complied with the license, chose to simply remove Java from Windows.
Microsoft improved Java for Windows. Whether it is right or wrong, Sun didn’t agree with that move and they sued Microsoft and Sun started acting hostile to Microsoft. Now, were you expecting Microsoft to continue to support a company’s technology which sues it and acting hostile towards it. You are unable to see the simple fact that, Microsoft does not have to support any third party technology. There is no legal reason for it. It is in their own discretion. They did support Java, and they are sued because of it. Now they don’t support it anymore. It is as simple as that. Courts can not and will not force which technologies Microsoft should and shouldn’t support. If that’s the case I would very much like to sue Microsoft and bunch of others for distributing my own technology. Every company has its own ideas and the only problem for their ideas to become successful is the fact that these big companies do not support it.
Later, as part of the anti-competitive action, they were forced to put Java back into Windows.
They were not forced to put Java back into Windows. Now I know how knowledgeable you are about the subject.
Sun provided MS with a license to build a windows JVM and developement tools for Java. They never at any time gave MS permission to modify or extend Java–Sun completely owns it.
MS attempted to hijack it! MS released J++ with MS JVM only extensions under the guise of their “license”.
Sun cried foul. MS refused to fix their JVM any further. Remember this hapened 2-3 years ago! The JVM for XP is the same one shipped with Win98!
Sun tried to hold MS to the duration of their support contract. They signed for like 5 years, or something like that. If MS wouldn’t update their JVM, then MS would provide the Sun JVM with windows to “fufill the contract!” MS continued to refuse to ship or upgrade current PCs. “They can’t force users to upgrade, too much bandwidth for our users!”
Now, MS has willfully damaged Java for 3 years by providing faulty JVMs. MS has also provided a competitor to Java, .net. The .net runtime is a required download with the latest service packs. Bill has a signed contract with SUN to do this. Sun expects MS to live up to the contract they willingly signed. MS didn’t think they had to follow the law because they were so big.
This is cut and dry in Sun’s favor. If MS can add 16 MB for .net as a required download, they certianly can fufill their contract with an extra 6MB for Java.
“I am totally suprised with your ability to know for sure that Microsoft intentionally crippled JVM.”
According the court, Microsoft intentionally crippled the JVM. They ended up paying Sun 20 million dollars because of it. Do some research before you post.
“Microsoft improved Java for Windows. Whether it is right or wrong, Sun didn’t agree with that move and they sued Microsoft and Sun started acting hostile to Microsoft.”
That’s what Microsoft claims. The courts didn’t agree. Microsoft crippled Java so that it was no longer cross platform.
“They were not forced to put Java back into Windows. Now I know how knowledgeable you are about the subject.”
Once again, do some research. Microsoft was ordered by a court to put Java back into Windows. It was part of the anti-competitive ruling.
“All of the Java based client applications out there are slow as hell”
I guess you’ve never heard of a JIT.
Don’t make up things about the court rulings. Read the Sun’s web page about that Java case.
http://java.sun.com/lawsuit/
Microsoft settled the case, there is no ruling. Before giving me an advice, do your own research.
Once again, do some research. Microsoft was ordered by a court to put Java back into Windows. It was part of the anti-competitive ruling
I bet you can’t post any credible link related to this ruling here, because it doesn’t exist. Clearly you make it up.
I guess you’ve never heard of a JIT.
I am working on JITs and I know that you make this one up too. There is basically no way to make Java programs as fast as machine code, even with JIT, because JIT is compiling the bytecode too fast and doesn’t have the time to make extensive optimizations which is available to ordinary compilers. Even with JIT some big Java programs will be slower compared to native applications.
Stop posting made up stuff here.
Now, MS has willfully damaged Java for 3 years by providing faulty JVMs.
This one was really funny. To state this, you have to prove that many Java developers out there who was willing to write Java and did write in Java during those years actually used MS’s Java tools and developed Java programs which was able to run only on Windows platforms, and the number of such developers were a lot compared to the total number of java develoers, and thus there was a negative effect of MS’s JVM. Furthermore of course, you also need to explain why in other platforms such as Mac OS, Linux and even Solaris, the use of Java as client applications was not better than the Windows platform itself. Furthermore, you have to explain exactly why Microsoft’s Java extensions which were not approved by Sun, were to blame for Java’s failure not only in Windows but also in other platforms. In Windows MS’s JVM was not the only option out there and it was perfectly running every written Java program (remember MS’s JVM is running Java programs. THis is not the issue, issue was MS’s JVM’s extensions. If you say that MS’s JVM is not running Java programs you would be lying). Now you don’t prove any of these, you don’t prove anything, you don’t explain why MS willfully damaged Java. Obviously you are one of the fakers here.
I think this is kind of unfair to the producers of other JVM’s if Microsoft ends up being required to include Sun’s JVM with Windows. Many Linux distibutions don’t include Sun’s JVM, you have to decide if that’s what you want and download it yourself. Microsoft shouldn’t include any JVM’s and let people decide for themselves (same with .Net), if people want it they’ll perform the download; but at least they’re given a choice.
The server side java engine on my system uses a compiler instead of a JIT. Thus the first time a java program is executed a compiler kicks in and creates an optimized version of it. This system works very well for the server side code and has posted some of the highest benchmark numbers in the java comunity. Why, other systems still use JIT for the serverside is the big question.
The java applications I run at work under windows, comes with a copy of the Sun VM. They don’t like the windows VM for some reason. The applications are eclipse (eclipse.org) and Operations Navigator (part of the server configurtion tools for our iSeries box).
The damage MS did to the java community was in the extensions. The J++ tools would generate code for the user; this code required the MS extensions to work. The MS extensions only work on the MS VM. If they would have developed a pure Java extensions that would work on multiple platforms, then everything would be ok.
The MS JVM is still at Java version 1.1.4. That’s 3 versions older than current! MS refuses to update their JVM to be current. More than that, they refuse to ship Sun’s current JVM.
!!!! SUN IS WILLING TO GIVE THEM THE LATEST JVM TO FUFILL THE CONTRACT AND MS IS REFUSING TO SHIP IT TO HONOR THEIR SIGNED CONTRACT!!!!!!
MS didn’t have the right to add extensions. They had the right to implement java, not to develop the language. Sun called them on it.
If I licensed a software product from you to use in all my computers I sold, pasted logos on my packaging and marketing flyers that I was compatible, and then refused to keep that software current with your version while under the time of the contract, you would have my butt. Under typical terms, you would revoke my license and give the product to someone else. But, MS sell lots of OS so Sun wants their program installed per the contract.
Again. MS willingly signed a contract to provide Java under Suns’s terms. MS deliberately strayed from those terms and now Sun wants it set right per Sun’s terms. MS has been trying for 3+ years to drag this out hoping Sun wil just “go away” or be “paid off”. During the time MS deveolped a competing product which they require users to install, and been declared a monoply power, while Sun is fighting in the courts to have their contract honored.
“am working on JITs and I know that you make this one up too. There is basically no way to make Java programs as fast as machine code”
I didn’t make this up. Sure there is no way to make Java programs as fast as machine code. But you can get pretty damn close. A good JIT can can get to within 90% of native C code. That’s fast enough for most things.
And besides that, on today’s 3Ghz systems, rapid deployment is often more important then achieving maximum performance. Many Java apps can be developed in months that would take years to develop in C or C++. For one, the code that needs to be written is often 5 times less then in C or C++. And Java also eliminates the need for the programmer to manage memory manually.
I made the 1st post and i just wanted to follow up:
I’m always astonished when people claim that Microsoft is the company who is doing damage to Java. Ironically, I think Sun has done more damage to Java than anyone else in the industry ever could. IBM and many other companies seem to be making gobs of money on Java but yet Sun is not. Sun likes to think that Microsoft is to blame but in reality it’s just Sun’s poor choices and subsequent failures in the marketplace. Sun seems to believe that any product they release should do well and if it doesn’t it is because of Microsoft’s position in the market and not because of problems with their products. This in effect is corporate welfare via the court systems.
In the late 80’s through the 90’s Sun enjoyed an almost monopolistic market share in the workstation and midrange server market. The landscape is changing though. Linux is eroding the market for sun workstations and low end servers. Why would you buy a $20k sun workstation when you could just get a $1500 Linux machine which does the same thing? Sadly, Sun’s attempts to adapt to this market have not been met with much success.
SUN IS WILLING TO GIVE THEM THE LATEST JVM TO FUFILL THE CONTRACT AND MS IS REFUSING TO SHIP IT TO HONOR THEIR SIGNED CONTRACT
Look I don’t know your age, or your ability to reason. Seriously I see that you are having trouble understanding what a contract means, what’s it terms, what does it cover, what does it dictate. Now go and read the contract here.
http://java.sun.com/announcement/index.html
More specifically read this,
http://java.sun.com/lawsuit/document.html
and show me where in this contract it says Microsoft agreed to ship Sun-approved JVMs for 5 years and thus has to ship a new JVM. I read it and there is no paragraph in that contract that says Microsoft has to ship it.
What the contract says is that, Microsoft can use this technology with the stated contract terms for 5 years. Now you have to stupid to say that Microsoft according to this contract has to ship JVM with Windows. Don’t you read any articles, even in this court Sun is not using this contract to enforce Microsoft to bundle JVM with Windows. If this contract was saying that Microsoft agreed to ship a Sun approved JVM with its Windows for 5 years, Sun would already win the court to force Microsoft to bundle JVM with its Windows.
Like Simba, you make up things and present them as facts. Simba couldn’t post a link to any site which talks about his made up court decision. You even didn’t read the ZDNet article, didn’t read the contract, and you just make the whole thing up.
Simba, as long as you don’t don’t post a link about the court decision that you claimed forced Microsoft to put Java back into Windows or you admit that you have mistaken about that your posts does not mean much to me.
How about starting a collection for Sun for coming out with a *magic* cross platform tool.
Why, you ask, well because it turns a Modern PIII type machine back into a 486. Talk about sluglike at the client end.
<sigh> Lets hope those MONO guys come out with .NET for Linux soon.
Sun is in a DISTANT 4th place in the java market, behind IBM, BEA and Oracle. Their reluctence to put java up for an international standard gave IBM and BEA the opportunity to make the sales pitch of not buying SUN javaware.
Java doesn’t make a machine crawling… bad programming practices and lack of optimization do it very well…
As for desktop apps, just check the Java NIO API… In it’s newer implementation…
Cheers…
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The MS JVM is still at Java version 1.1.4. That’s 3 versions older than current!
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Part of the ruling in the original Sun – MS lawsuit was an injunction from MS distributing any JVM’s newer than 1.1.4
I assume Sun was confident that Java was going to take over the marketplace and that this would cripple MS’s ability to compete. Now apparently, Sun feels that LACK of a current JVM everywhere (specifically every Windows box where the user HASN’T chosen to download Sun’s latest and greatest) is what is holding them back. This looks like Sun trying to legislate Java ubiquity via the courts FORCING MS to distribute Sun code.
Hmm… lets say I’m MS.. Sun sues me to stop making me differentiate my platform (Windows) by making my JVM implementation fast (leaving aside any contract legalities – it wasn’t that the JVM didn’t run java programs correctly, only that the extentions where windows specific), and limits my JVM to 1.1.4.
Well, if I was MS, I would go off, and create .NET as well, just so I didn’t have to deal with Sun and their lawsuits.
But wait! Now Sun says “Hey, that’s no good – there are a lot of Windows installations! if .NET goes there, then Java might suffer, especially if client side, many people write for 1.1.4, simply because of all the Windows 1.1.4 JVMs.
I KNOW! Let’s FORCE them to distribute a newer JVM…>OUR< newer JVM!”
repeat after me: Microsoft is NOT legally required to help Sun.
Sun forced Microsoft to stop shipping a Java that worked well on Windows. Yes, folks, that old Microsoft JVM with WFC, J/Direct, delegates, etc., is still light years ahead of Sun’s mediocre VM that still doesn’t integrate well with Windows.
Why are most, bordering on ALL, Java client apps lame on Windows? Because Sun is not investing ONE DAMN CENT in making Java work well on Windows.
Oh the Java fan boys will bring up “SWT”. But where did that come from? IBM of course. A company interested in making something work well vs. the endless legal maneuvering you get from Sun.
Has Sun spent any significant time and energy figuring out how to ELEGANTLY interface Java with other languages? No. All the interfaces between Java and C/C++ are gross compared to the clean design of .NET.
By forcing Microsoft to abandon Java (which had a good following in Redmond at the time of J++), Sun caused Microsoft to move Anders from working on J++/WFC over to .NET. And so C# was born.
Sun won a battle and is going to end up losing the war.
Maybe one day Sun will realize that only when they make Java a REAL open standard does it stand a chance for the long run. As long as Java remains a closed standard, Microsoft will out innovate Sun with ease.
Not only did Sun make it impossible for Microsoft to make a good Java implementation for Windows, Sun has made it impossible for ANY COMPANY to implement a really awesome native Java VM for Windows.
And Fowler and Schwartz think that’s smart. Shut out the world’s biggest market. Yep, that’ll make Java succeed! Maybe they have some ex-Apple people doing their corporate strategy — “Less market share is better!”
And now they are making the legal case that Microsoft must ship Sun’s crippleware Java on Microsoft’s OS.
That’s not only preposterous, it’s also bad for Java.
– Red Pill
AWT and Swing make Java slow on the client side.
1.4.1_01 is very fast when compared to JDKs/JREs of the past.
With Java 1.4.1, I find Java no worse than running SharpDevelop with the .NET 1.1 beta.
Java is no speed demon, not even this latest release. It is somewhat snappier, but it still feels clunky. Like every UI action takes millions of CPU cycles and totally trashes the CPU cache many times along the way. Startup time is not perceptibly better than 1.3.X, meaning glacially slow.
And I would certainly never say .NET is a speed demon. Many parts of .NET are slower than Java or just work worse.
I never did figure out what was “wrong” or “broken” with using compiled C/C++ code to write client apps. They are small, they don’t use nearly as much memory as Java apps, and they run fast.
For the client, it seems like Java is trying to solve a problem that does not really exist. Every native platform needs native code to utilize the strengths and benefits of that platform. Java and its generic programming approach don’t allow any really great applications to be built.
I think time has shown us that it is clear that Java (and now .NET) are massive overkill for writing client code.
– Red Pill