“With all of this going for it, how come Linux has not exploded even more than it has? How come it has not penetrated corporations to a larger degree? How come users have been so resistant to it on the desktop / client level? There are any number of possible reasons, and to be honest, I’m not expert enough to be able to nail them all down with absolute certainty. But I, like so many of you, am a huge supporter of the platform and a rabid enthusiast who spends countless hours tweaking and tinkering with various distributions. It is a synergy of sorts. I learn about the complexities while working to customize the system, and as an old DOS guy from way back, it is actually pretty fun.” AnandTech’s Paul Sullivan is analyzing the Linux situation in his latest editorial.
What’s Holding Linux Back?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
My experience of using Linux is that it just feels too ‘Clunky’, there is obvious power there but using the system is not always a pleasant experience, from the way that different GUI apps look different (because of different toolkits), to inconsistencies in the way the keyboard and mouse work.
I really enjoy playing with it, in fact KDE/KDevelop is a great development environment almost on a par with MS Visual Studio, but it just does not feel ‘Complete’ enough to use all day without getting frustrated.
Maybe one day it will feel as nice as XP/Mac :-] !!
Yet another “why linux ain’t on the desktop”. Yes, ain’t.
Anywho.. i agree partly with Daryl. It feels very clunky. A typical user shouldn’t have to get under the hood so far to tweak it. All the linux fanatics (i know they aren’t the majority, but they are the most heard) preach about how Windows is bloatware, yadda yadda. Linux is even more so in my opinion.. sure you can opt not to install alot of stuff in a distribution, but the guy at home using Win98 switching to linux doesn’t know what things like “aptget”, “gtk c++ bindings” etc are even though they have a brief description next to them.
Give them what they need, don’t overkill with a million inane options. Put on there whats required for them to be productive.. browser, gui, wm, etc. Sure, what about the people who want the extra stuff… make a different distro for those dudes. We gotta stop making the first timers feel like they’ve just screwed up their computer 3 minutes into the installation. I’d love to know what a first-timer thinks when he/she see’s all those kernel bootup messages flying by.. i’m sure they’re thinking “wtf is that?? maybe this wasn’t a good idea.”
Once installed, then what? Get rid of all the seperate configurations for shit. One has to hit about 20 different things configure it, or set it up to their liking. Sure there’s the control panel thing, but its clunky at best. Everyone seems so intent in bringing the best from other OS’s to the platform, why the hell did they skip over this??
Lastly, put a ban on all the geek terms. For example.. CLI or Command Line Interface.. dump it. The people who will get linux desktop market share started with win95 and haven’t a clue what this is.
Back to my original point.. people have stated the obvious items needed to get linux on the desktop three million times already, and no one who could’ve made it happen cared then, much less now. The biggest improvement i’ve seen for the actual end user experience has come from Ximian, but it takes more than a no-money company to get something like ‘taking over the desktop’ going.. ALOT more.
doc.
Try installing some softwware. I wanted to install the latest version Balsa, (an email reader), on my RedHat 7.0 Linux system. Now RedHat 7.0 isn’t the latest version, but it’s pretty recent. There is a note on the Balsa site to not bother trying to install the latest version on your system unless you are an expert on sorting out library dependancies. Just wait until your distribution supports it by default. (I still haven’t figured out how to rip a CD. I just use a Windows box. And I won’t bother mentioning the gyrations you need to go through to play a DVD.)
And that’s why linux will never take over the desktop. It’s a complete PIA to maintain and upgrade. On Windows or better yet MacOS X a dialog will popup, (as long as you have a net connection), saying that there is new software to install. One click installs it and your done. (Maybe another one if a reboot is neccessary.) No library dependencies to sort out. No recompiling the kernel. It just works. Linux on the other hand is so simple to render unbootable that it’s not funny.
SysAdmins have enough to worry about without having to babysit Linux boxes.
To all of you who are so vocal in complaining, not mentioning the fact that you are getting this for FREE, please understand the following:
(1) Certain things (ie network setup, routing paths, firewall rules, etc..) should NOT be easy to setup. When you reduce the unimaginable complexities down to a simple checkbox — you ultimately sacrifice configurability. Or more succinctly you wind up with Windows…
(2) If you cant RTFM, go away
(3) Contribute! Linux is there to be hacked upon. If you see something ‘klunky’ offer to fix it. Even if you cant code — offer assistance (writing FAQs, etc) to a favorite project
Oh wait…thats right…most of those complaining are not serious about learning anything. For many of you, I feel that these ‘outburst’ are nothing more than thinly disguised attempts to shift the blame for your own questionable technical skills.
If Linux is too hard…pick up a copy of the latest PC Mag and read some reviews of the latest mouse pad to hit the market. At least you’ll feel like you understand something…..
-blz
Doug: I’m learning all the time, i like programming – it’s my hobby, and a basic for work (i’m webmaster/web programmer). I don’t think i’m genius or something, and i don’t think i’m stupid, i’m “one of many” (maybe “one of many ppl who like to learn something new about what is interestning to them”
Now when You know more or less who i am (what kind of man) i can write: Linus sucks because it’s “ugly” in directories structure (chaos for non-linux ppl), hard to configure, and slow in windows (as desktop os). Of course i can RTFM but i have to see it’s worth, it must be interestning. Reading about ugly, chaotic, buggy os isn’t. And i don’t have time for this. I want to make something, not lear how to use.
Sorry, but linux isn’t for me, isn’t for most ppl in the world.
Maybe it will be (easier) someday… but i doubt.
…of why people don’t want to try Linux. The elitist attitude of some users amaze me. I’m sure they’re not all like that, but if those ‘elitists’ want to see their hardware supported by the vendor and not have to install hacks to make stuff work, then you should embrace the people whom you consider “stupid”. Third party support for Linux wouldn’t be there right now if it weren’t for those who are still learning.
A good start for the crazier linux nuts would be to drop the ‘RTFM’ – that’s a real put-off.
Doug, no need to fly off the handle.
I think I speak for lots of people who visit the site, I am quite capable of installing/configuring and tweaking a computer to my own satisfaction. I am a developer with systems knowledge down to kernel level.
I would love to hack away on linux but it just does not invite me, like Shard was saying, the directory structure is confusing to users in comparison to other OS’s.
Even the way all the kernel messages fly by on boot, I dont want to see that, maybe an indication if something is seriously wrong (in a GUI window too) is all I need.
I have a job to do, and I just want an environment that enables me to get on and do my job.
I used Linux way back, 7 or 8 years ago and it has come on in leaps and bounds since in functionality, KDE in particular is an extremely competent product. But its the little things that really bug me, the frequent core dumps, the general slowdowns and lack or crispness to everything, the inconsistency between apps. The good points just dont quite offset that, well not just yet.
And just because people dont code System Level (Kernel/GUI etc) does not mean we are contributing, I spent several months evaluating it as a platform for our in-house inventory control system, but ultimately rejected it due to a substandard database access system (we use MS SQL Server, which is not very well supported), in fact I am looking forward to KDE 3 to try the new database system.
So, just my 2 pence!
I don’t suppose <a href=http://www.opensourcenews.com>banishing the hobbyists’ browser/os, will hold Linus back much?
Doug Strummer said:
“(1) Certain things (ie network setup, routing paths, firewall rules, etc..) should NOT be easy to setup. When you reduce the unimaginable complexities down to a simple checkbox — you ultimately sacrifice configurability. Or more succinctly you wind up with Windows…”
Why the hell not? Because its not COOL? People don’t have much of a problem with it in windows.. its very straight forward, especially if you go through those wizards. If you want to sit and bitch how bad microsoft is, at least figure out what they did right.
“(2) If you cant RTFM, go away ”
This is the elitist attitude everyone hates, and does the entire community harm. You can take your RTFM slogan and shove it up your ass. You WTFM in english, and maybe people other than us techies will read it.
“(3) Contribute! Linux is there to be hacked upon. If you see something ‘klunky’ offer to fix it. Even if you cant code — offer assistance (writing FAQs, etc) to a favorite project”
There are much more interesting things for me to do than dick around with some linux distro in an attempt to trick myself that its user friendly. I’ll leave it to the people who enjoy it.
The fact is, you can spew out this rhetoric all you want. We’re talking about run of the mill users, users who want to do their work and whatnot. Not about ourselves and how we could contribute but we don’t. Stick to the topic.
Yes the Unix file system layout is pretty hard to get around. Anyone know where a good FAQ on it is? Linux is bloated, it’s so easy to get installations greater than 1gig just ensuring you have all the dependencies covered.
I thought that arcticle was good it summed up the reasons why linux isn’t for newbies. I might even look into Corel Linux it sounded good. But I’m pretty happy learning QNX it’s easy to configure. It didn’t even care when I moved the harddrive I had it on to another computer, Windows isn’t so forgiving with such things it has to reinstall every driver and do numerous restarts and runs like a dog afterwards. QNX isn’t bloated either QSSL managed to fit a version of it on a floppy with photon, a web browser and dial up software.
“When you reduce the unimaginable complexities down to a simple checkbox — you ultimately sacrifice configurability. Or more succinctly you wind up with Windows…”
Just because you make things easier doesn’t mean you have to sacrifice configurablity, Joe Blow doesn’t want to spend an hour setting up a home network so he can play quake on a lan and share files he wants it now. and if he can’t understand how to do it he’ll just get frustrated. Of course Jimmy Sys Admin wants to set up a an Apache web sever for his Intranet. The trick is making it simple but retaining the configurabilty when it’s needed! It can’t be that hard to achive. Maybe If the Linux comunity kept this in mind the transition would be easier.
>To all of you who are so vocal in complaining, not mentioning the fact that you are getting this for FREE, please understand the following:
So? I’m getting Windows for free and it’s much easier! Lol. Just kidding about the free part :p
>(1) Certain things (ie network setup, routing paths, firewall rules, etc..) should NOT be easy to setup. When you reduce the unimaginable complexities down to a simple checkbox — you ultimately sacrifice configurability. Or more succinctly you wind up with Windows…
Yeah, right. You should need a trained expert to get ont the internet. Pfft.
>(2) If you cant RTFM, go away
Don’t you guys just love the Linux community?! They are just so nice!
>(3) Contribute! Linux is there to be hacked upon. If you see something ‘klunky’ offer to fix it. Even if you cant code — offer assistance (writing FAQs, etc) to a favorite project
My point is, the avrage users isn’t going to want – much less have- to do any of that. The linux community is always saying how they are starting this project ot make something more userfriendly or what ever. Oh brother. Linux would be so much easier to use if someone would be willing to answer questions with an answer other than RTFM. Theres no point in making something user friendly if no one is willing to help a newbie.
>Oh wait…thats right…most of those complaining are not serious about learning anything.
Some of us are, some just want an alternitive to windows without having to be a genius to use it. And then there are some who want to learn but just can’t stan cryptic ‘help’ files and the rude linux community.
>For many of you, I feel that these ‘outburst’ are nothing more than thinly disguised attempts to shift the blame for your own questionable technical skills.
Whatever.
>If Linux is too hard…pick up a copy of the latest PC Mag and read some reviews of the latest mouse pad to hit the market.
WTF?! When did PC mag start reviewing mouse pads?!
I’ve only been using linux for about three months, and it is a lot easier than I had imagined. I had been a hobbyist BeOS programmer for a couple of years, so I might not exactly be “Joe User”, but I haven’t had that much trouble, and it has been fun learning about unix.
Admittedly the install was pretty difficult, but in all fairness I didn’t pick the easiest way to start – Debian via ftp. Plus, my home box has an NIC that isn’t in the standard list of supported cards, but it did come with a floppy with source for a Linux driver, so I had to build and install that module before I could use apt-get. Since then, everything has been pretty easy.
I think that right now the average user would do fine with KDE/Linux if all of the installation and configuration was done for him/her. The big remaining hurdles are to make it easier for non-techies to add or remove hardware and software.
“…like Shard was saying, the directory structure is confusing to users in comparison to other OS’s.”
Concerning the layout of directories. I don’t understand what is so hard about it. Programs go in either /usr/bin, /usr/local/, /opt, and all your personal files are in /home/<username>. Of course there are other directories that you must commonly use like /etc, but so what. Consider these Windows directories: /inf, /MUI, /repair, /Speech, /ShellNew, /ime, /Driver Cache, /Web, etc. Do you know what they are for? Are they any less convoluted and scary that /etc, /home or /usr? I realize that I wrote the Windows directories in a Unix format, but I didn’t think / and \ would be that confusing.
The truth is that Linux’s directory structure is much cleaner than Windows. / is the same as C:\, and all your files are contained in pretty much the same place no matter what distribution you are using. Microsoft moves things in almost every release it produces. Where is your internet cache on Windows 98 or NT 4? Where is it on ME/XP and 2000? Just because you are more familiar with the Win way of doing things doesn’t mean that it is better, it just means it’s different. I didn’t even mention the Windows Registry. When you delete an app in Linux, usually it is deleted. In Windows, if you delete an app, most of the time broken links and other remnants are left behind in your registry. Linux is cleaner in this regard as well.
“…Why the hell not? Because its not COOL?”
No, because in Windows the complexity is SO hidden, that you can’t do anything when you need to. You are crippled. For example, my broadband connection is awesome on Linux, but on Windows it sucked forever because of a crippled registry setting. Finally the company released a registry patch that fixed the problem.
“…Give them what they need, don’t overkill with a million inane options.” AND “…Linux is that it just feels too ‘Clunky’”
Try Caldera. It is definitely not bloated.
Some distributions, such as Slackware and Debian, are for the die hard Linux users. Caldera’s OpenLinux 3.1, however, is an excellent choice for the novice. It is well tested and is a very solid product. I would hardly call a solid product that never crashes, one that I haven’t had to reboot since the day I installed it, clunky.
“…Sure there’s the control panel thing, but its clunky at best.”
Caldera has a tool called Webmin that let’s you control, via a web interface, everything. Your firewall, printers, network, etc. Does Windows come with a firewall? Caldera also has a tool that let’s you update the entire system via a wizard and an internet connection. It’s easier to use than Windows Update and doesn’t require a reboot.
“…CLI or Command Line Interface.. dump it.”
Windows 95 and later all have a command line. If you mean you don’t want to boot to a command line, try OpenLinux 3.1 and Libranet 1.9.1. If you mean you want to do away with the command line all together, that is not a good idea. If you don’t want to use it, don’t. But doing away with it would be dumb.
Yes, Linux is different from Windows, and yes, you can’t go down to your local software store and fork out money for the latest software. However, Linux isn’t really that hard if you take the time to understand it (just like you did with Windows) and you can download awesome programs (like StarOffice 6.0) for free.
“…substandard database access system (we use MS SQL Server, which is not very well supported)”
Which database system were you using? PostgreSQL and MySQL are excellent database systems. Also, Oracle is avaliable for Linux, and it is far superior to MS SQL Server. It sounds to me like Linux wasn’t the problem, but that MS SQL Server doesn’t play outside the MS playpen was.
“…Linux would be so much easier to use if someone would be willing to answer questions with an answer other than RTFM. Theres no point in making something user friendly if no one is willing to help a newbie.”
You are right. Some Linux users are jerks. However, many of us aren’t. If someone comes to me with a question, I can, and will, help them. I may start out terse, but I can adjust to any level of explanation.
On the other hand (and this is much more common), beginners don’t ask questions but start complaining about everything under the sun and making irrelevant comparisons to Windows. I realize that this is out of frustration, but please, if you can ask a decent question, then don’t be upset when you don’t get a civil answer.
“…Linux is bloated, it’s so easy to get installations greater than 1gig just ensuring you have all the dependencies covered.”
No it isn’t. Most distributions like to install every piece of free software ever invented, but that is not Linux, it is software. What you are saying is the same as me saying Windows is bloated because when I install Office, Visual Studio, 20 games, video editing software, Photoshop, etc. it takes up several gigs on my hard drive.
If you want an “unbloated” distro, try OpenLinux.
Yes but have usefull is Linux with out all that software?
I mean how usefull.
Linux’s directory structure is no different that BeOS’ directory structure or MAC OS X’s directory structure.
“…Yes but have usefull is Linux with out all that software?”
I think you mean “how useful”.
Just as useful as Windows is without any software.
Pehaps I should elaborate on my last comment. Linux usually comes, for example, with every editor on the face of the planet. Do you need Emacs, joe, jed, pico, vi, vim, etc? No, you only need one. There are many redundancies as far as software goes in Linux distributions. The reason for this is kind of the core thinking behind Linux, choice. With Windows you get the flawed Notepad. No Choice.
Also, when people say bloated, you are not talking about hard drive usage, but efficiency. Windows is not a very efficient OS. Linux, Solaris, NetWare, Irix, and others are much more efficient.
To illustrate this point, Windows XP can not run on a 486 with 32 MB of ram. Linux can because it uses resources more efficiently.
I think MenuetOS has to be the most efficient OS I’ve seen in a while.
What so flawed about notepad granted it has a a file size limit and it’s a bit basic but those aren’t really flaws.
You talk as if you think I like Windows, the truth is I hate it more than you but Linux is hardly the answer, not yet.
I posted this in a different form on another thread about a week ago, but it sure seems appropriate to revise and extend my remarks here…
Despite what “true believers” would have you think, Linux has yet to stand a serious chance of becoming a viable desktop alternative, because they can’t pass the “average end-user test.” Simply, it has to be as easy to install as the typical MS or Mac product. There is much I don’t like about those two particular OS pushers. However, they have set a benchmark with regard to installation PROCEDURE.
It’s sad that Linux is usually the designated “free” alternative to the big two (MS & Apple). Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but there are a few “free” alternatives that are much more stable. I’m speaking of the three BSD flavours. BSD has a proven track record as both a desktop and server OS that puts all other OS to shame. However, BSD can’t pass the “average end-user test” either.
If the Linux community had spent HALF the effort on slinging near infinite numbers of different distributions against the wall to see which one would stick, the infighting and perpetuating of their own stupid parody of the MS vs. Mac interface fight (being the default/bundling KDE vs. GNOME GUI mess), and instead backed the BSD projects, the “desktop” wars would be over. To shift gears…
To be able to RTFM, the FM has to be written correctly. Having done process and installation documentation, I can say that Linux AND BSD docs are, at best, about halfway there.
Like it or not, installation processes, along with documentation have to be understandable to the average user. My documentation test was handing it off to a random secretary in the building and have them go through the procedure, without my help. If they got though it with no problems, I considered the document done.
The idea that simplification equates to a loss of “robustness” indicates that while you may (or may not) know a lot about COMPUTERS, you don’t know jack about COMPUTING.
For the moment, there is an excellent example: OS X. They are in the process of striking a balance between ease of use for the average end-user who simply wants to get work done (I know, nutty. Computers can be used as tools to get actual work done.), and those of us who think a command line interface isn’t an accessory. As it stands, Apple has done the smart thing, and gotten their own little piece of BSD. Specifically, the kernel is FreeBSD.
Other OS have struck this balance: Amiga, Be, NeXT (which is simply OS X v1.0), OS/2, and RISC (used on Acorn PCs) are the ones that come immediately to mind.
In 20 years of computing, the three best desktop OSs I’ve used are Amiga, Be, and NeXT. NeXT has seen new life as OS X. If the Linux community wants to do something genuinely constructive, they should watch the fates of Amiga and Be next month, and be ready to render aid as needed. The new Amiga OS and compatible hardware are supposed to be coming out the first week of November. Be has their big meeting on November 12th.
Regards,
Mike
I find linux is pretty easy to install the FM on the cd’s reagarding that are pretty good even red hat 5.2 wtih its old text based intaller was pretty easy to install. Maybe it’s just me.
1 thing, software. one of the top things i think linux needs.. is more software. i would use linux.. but i cant play my videogames on it. or use photoshop, illustrator, or alot of other programs like that. sure linux has basic things like mp3 players and word processors. but specific software just isnt there.
if linux had the ability to run windows programs, or if people ported those programs to linux.. i would use linux. i know linux can emulate windows. im not talking about emulating windows, from my understanding that is slow. i would like to see something along the lines of what os/2 had. where if you had windows you could let os2 pick the needed peices out of it and run windows programs natively.
i would also like to see the gui improved as well. it would be nice if there were a standard gui as well.. to simplify it. i need font smoothing, i can hardly stand to look at the fonts in linux. cause i couldnt find font smoothing as an option in the programs or anywhere on the net. i would love to get away from micro$ofts operating system. but i just dont wanna leave all my software behind.
Why did it post my post as Anonymous? I had my name in their… stupid windozew…
Coming from the VAX/VMX, Windows (3.0 – 2000), and Mac worlds, I’m not necessarily a slouch when it comes to understanding how to install and configure an OS. But, even though Linux (I installed Redhat 7.0) is pretty darn cool and obviously has a lot of power and configurability, I found myself constantly bashing up against documentation with the attitude of Doug Strummer, which can be summarized as: “if you don’t already know half of what you’re supposed to be doing, don’t bug me you imbecile.” There is simply no excuse for that kind of snotty, juvenile ‘tude, particularly when one of the challenges the OS is facing is general acceptance. Granted, the documentation shouldn’t be so basic as to describe what a mouse is, but it should at least be at the level that assumes the reader is encountering the commands for the first time (a pretty common situation in all learning).
A basic, centralized – and clearly and professionally documented – set of scripts that allow for basic to medium configuration of typical OS and application behavior would be good. I still haven’t found a clear explanation on how to access my internet provider or install a software package like StarOffice anywhere in the copious documentation, after two weeks of searching.
I do now suspect that installing a software package has something to do with the acronym RPM, but that’s about as far as I’ve gotten. And I can get my modem to dial my ISP and trade tones, if you will, but something is wrong with the handshake, and I have no idea on where to look to begin to troubleshoot it.
I’m not asking for help here, of course, but I shouldn’t have to be struggling with these questions on such very basic use of the OS.
Finally, anyone daring to venture into the Linux world knows there are the Doug Strummers out there who feel justified in exploiting a system running Linux if the newbie hasn’t got all the ins and outs of a firewall figured out, and thus the system is vulnerable for abuse. So there is the added dread of being picked on by the script kiddies while you’re figuring how to control this very cool OS. I don’t want my box involved in helping some brat do a DOS.
“”…Linux would be so much easier to use if someone would be willing to answer questions with an answer other than RTFM. Theres no point in
making something user friendly if no one is willing to help a newbie.””
“You are right. Some Linux users are jerks. However, many of us aren’t. If someone comes to me with a question, I can, and will, help them. I may
start out terse, but I can adjust to any level of explanation. ”
However, unfortunally, most of them seem to be jerks. Especially on newsgroups. Someone asks a question like “I need to recompile the kernel to do this or that, how do i recompile the kernel?” and they usually get “RTFM!”
“On the other hand (and this is much more common), beginners don’t ask questions but start complaining about everything under the sun and making
irrelevant comparisons to Windows.”
Ah, yes, that is annoying. But sometimes linux users don’t quite seem to know when they should not reply to a question. Or atlease they could be a little nicer about.
“I realize that this is out of frustration, but please, if you can ask a decent question, then don’t be upset when you don’t get a civil answer. ”
I’m assuming that that is a typo…
My point, is that Linux users, not all of them, but most of them, need to relax and put up with newbies at least a little. Or go somewhere where there aren’t newbies.
“Concerning the layout of directories. I don’t understand what is so hard about it. Programs go in either /usr/bin, /usr/local/, /opt, and all your personal files are in /home/. Of
course there are other directories that you must commonly use like /etc, but so what. Consider these Windows directories: /inf, /MUI, /repair, /Speech, /ShellNew, /ime, /
Driver Cache, /Web, etc. Do you know what they are for? Are they any less convoluted and scary that /etc, /home or /usr? I realize that I wrote the Windows directories in
a Unix format, but I didn’t think / and \ would be that confusing.”
/MUI? /Speech? /ime? Driver Cache?? I know windows (98/98se) dir structure (because i like to throw out unneeded things
more or less, but i don’t have these. And all others are in /windows.
What i mean is windows has whole system in one directory, all other apps has other dirs. Linux dir tree is a big mess. BeOS is in the middle, dir tree similar to standard unix, but has part for os, and part for other (user) installs. I was little confused by BeOS but only at first look. I had linux (for a short time), at work i have to do some things by ssh on freeBSD server (dir structure the same as linux), and i still think that it’s a mess.
I must say this too: i don’t like some of windows directories (those standar with space in name – dos and some windoze apps can’t work with them correctly), but i’m sure it’s cleaner than linux. And don’t get me wrong: i’m one of BeOS ppl
)
Can you say no marketing department.
The truth is this:
Linux is NEW. (to most of the world)
Windows is OLD. (since 1995)
People have been using Windows constantly for 6 years. They get used to how it works. Anything that is “NOT WINDOWS” is too hard to learn. Different can be good, with the right attitude.
And that doesn’t mean that the average user finds it easy around Windows. Ask your mom to change the IP address. Could she do it? Doubt it. So why is Linux suddenly so bad? I find it easier to change my device driver in Linux than I can in Windows.
If you used Linux at work, at home, at play, you would find it much more intuitive and easy to use than Windows. But you don’t, so you call it “clunky”, “buggy”, and all sorts of other terms. Give it a chance, everyone. You’ll love it.
Adam: i gave linux chance and it’s not for me as desktop os.
You are right that ppl get used to windoze. But i still think that windoze dir structure is cleaner than in linux.
I call linux buggy not because it’s not intuitive, but only because it IS buggy. Or maybe another way -> It is buggy for newbies. if someone knows linux he/she can configure it well, and maybe it will not hang over pretty often (as it was here with RH7.01 standard install). Of course it could be distro’s fault but.. my brother tried Mandrake – buggy as RH. By saying linux i mean whole distro, not kernel (although it has bugs probably as any other code
. Maybe there is good quality distro, maybe even with simple installation process. Too bad i don’t know about any.
I will try linux again when it will be more like BeOS – easy to install, fast boot, fast file system, fast app loading, responsive, right click on window tab to move it back, …, beautiful
After that next very important thing will be community that should be more like BeOS community – friendly, not “I’m master, you’re stupid, bow before me and beg for mercy” ppl.
“if linux had the ability to run windows programs, or if people ported those programs to linux.. i would use linux. i know linux can emulate windows. im not talking about emulating windows, from my understanding that is slow. i would like to see something along the lines of what os/2 had. where if you had windows you could let os2 pick the needed peices out of it and run windows programs natively.”
goto http://www.wine.org wine’s an implementation of the windows API for linux it can runs some windows program and games and not an emulator.
“/MUI? /Speech? /ime? Driver Cache?? I know windows (98/98se) dir structure (because i like to throw out unneeded things
more or less, but i don’t have these. And all others are in /windows.”
That’s because these directorys are in WinNT/2K/XP well I assume their in NT/XP.
As for what they do /INF stores .inf files which are used for configuring drivers. /repair probably has something to do with win2K’s repair function. /Shell news adds files types to the new menu. /Web has crap in it you don’t need well you don’t need the pictures. /IME It looks like it has something to do with dictionarys? /Speech has somethig to do with voice reconition. /MUI, mine’s in System32 so I don’t have a clue probably a driver. /Driver Cache it’s a cache of files 2K use if a system file gets damaged to replace them e.g. if you modify the kernel with reshacker it will be changed back when you reboot.
“What i mean is windows has whole system in one directory, all other apps has other dirs.”
Yeah but have you gone really deep in to some of thoes windows dirs they stop using file names and use really long numbers after a while, scary. I don’t think windows has the best file system tree. It’s good how you can find programs in their own directory so you know what files belong to what program. A cross between Unix’s FS tree and windows FS tree would be great and intuitive to the windows/new users and not messed up like windows.
“Linux is NEW. (to most of the world)
Windows is OLD. (since 1995) ”
I think windows is a little older than that windows 1.0 was around in 1985 and a beta of 95 was in existance in 1994
Linux is a unix like operation system, unix isn’t exactly new so you could argue.
Windows is New. (since 1985)
Linux is Old. (UNIX Time-Sharing System First Edition (V1) 1971)
WorkBench 1.3 was probably out before widows 3.1 and I’d say that was a nicer OS. You can’t get more user frendly than clicking a few icons to start the program or inserting a floppy to boot the OS. The complex stuff is all there if you need it too.
well one thing to say to Ungoliant and most of those who think that age makes an operating system bad. I’m not saying that directly to ungoliant, cause i’m not sure if he was trying to actually make that point. but i’m sick of hearing people talk about unix being 30 years old like it just sat around and did nothing until ms-dos and apple-dos like os’s came out in the early 1980’s. all of those years of “sitting around floating” as i hear some people call it was time spent for programmers then to make it a true-multi-tasking and fairly if not extremely stable or more than when the dos’s came out.
anyway back to the topic of what is holding linux back. i could list a couple of things off the bat that might actually be the reason.
-Linux is not being marketed: some people might reject to that but it’s true. i’ve never seen a chemmercial on tv for any linux distrobution. the closest is when i saw this ibm chemercial with someone that mensioned it. and about two hours ago i saw a cow talking about xp… scary huh?
-Some experienced computer users get disorientated (experienced to other os’s). think of it like this if you’ve used a hand calculator (the acountant types with the paper tape.) with one hand you get the hang of it, right, follow me? now… think of if you just all of a sudden find out that you could use the other hand and you know that that way you could write a peice of paper while typing into that calculator. after a while it becomes… well… a bitch. hard to use at first.
-Linux not at school. i can it two rocks with one bird here (or is that the other way around o_O ). anyway in schools kids are only used to apple and windows. those are the majority in schools. the thing about that? basically kids only think that those would be their only choices. so they grow up and then buy a windows or a mac sys.
some people might disagree but to tell you the truth i never knew what a mac was until i ran into one in school. and i never knew what linux was until a barebones computer came with a corel linux disc. all of that was along time ago.
that is just a couple of things. maybe you might not agree, but that’s my 2 cents. but i got one more thing to say. for all of these people who have said that linux is hard probably have first used windows or mac first and then tried linux. and the truth is of course it’s going to be hard if you’ve used the calculator with the right hand and then only try the left hand (like in my example) you’d think it’s not worth it and would go back to using your right hand.
another thing that is kind of interesting, (i don’t like making long docs but i’m trying to get a good point across) when i started using windows95 it took me about a good year to get it together. but! when i switched to linux i realised that even though i had all of this knowledge of windows i had to start all over. it took me a good year until i actually started to use linux as a normal operating system, games, music, work, ect. so it’s not really that linux is harder for those who think it is. it’s just not what your used to.
for new people to linux got to mandrake, it’s as easy as it gets.
http://www.mandrake.com/
-trakal
“…My point, is that Linux users, not all of them, but most of them, need to relax and put up with newbies at least a little. Or go somewhere where there aren’t newbies.”
You must be looking for help in the wrong places. Try http://www.libranet.com and sign up to be a member of their mailing list. There have been a few problem people on there, but for the most part people are friendly and helpful (unless, of course, you start bashing Libranet or Linux).
My main complaint with Notepad is that it does not handle codepage information correctly.
The filesize limitation, the lack of any useful editor features (yes, you can read files, but not much else) are not flaws, just poor design.
Ungoliant: Yep, i know about those dirs with long numbers in name
You can find the same type of numbers in registers. It’s from COM architecture (or maybe OLE? hmm don’t remember because i’ve only read about it when i’ve tried to make directx app in Delphi ;] long time ago… )
“A cross between Unix’s FS tree and windows FS tree would be great and intuitive to the windows/new users and not messed up like windows.”
True. You mean something like BeOS
, or maybe it should have little more from windoze… i’m not sure. for me it was rather easy to find how it works (but i’m sure i don’t know all things about BeOS dir structure 
trakal: hmm maybe yes, linux at schools would make ppl understand linux more easly, but… i don’t think it’s easy enough to make children play with it (yes, yes i know that there are teens-hackers
with fun, and not to scare them.
Maybe with a good configuration and permits… i’m still not sure, but as i think about it, it could be possible
But You would need an experienced users as teachers. And linux gurus aren’t too nice ;]
I agree with Mike that BSD is a good OS. I especially like OpenBSD. I don’t agree that it is more stable than Linux though. I think they are about equal. I have a Linux machine that has been up for two years. You just can’t beat 100% stability.
If I had to use BSD, I wouldn’t use it as a desktop, but I’d be sure to use it as a server. I think Linux makes a better desktop.
“1 thing, software. one of the top things i think linux needs.. is more software. i would use linux.. but i cant play my videogames on it…”
Are you saying more software in general or just more game software?
Linux has more software available for it than Windows does.
An excellent Photoshop-ish tool is GIMP (or you could use Corel Photopaint if you were so inclined).
Blender is an excellent 3D graphics tool, which is as good as $1000.00+ Windows software. It’s user interface is weird, but still a good tool.
I used to buy tons of Windows software. I have been able to find similar software to replace all my needs. It may take you a while to familiarize yourself with what’s available, but I think you’ll be shocked.
As far as standardizing on one GUI, why? Instead of locking everyone into one GUI, why don’t you just pick the one you like and allow everyone else the same freedom?
I think I’ve already said this, but in response to Yahmdallah’s post:
“Finally, anyone daring to venture into the Linux world knows there are the Doug Strummers out there who feel justified in exploiting a system running Linux if the newbie hasn’t got all the ins and outs of a firewall figured out, and thus the system is vulnerable for abuse…”
Download Caldera’s OpenLinux 3.1 ISO image. Install it. Login and use the Webmin (large blue “W” icon on the toolbar at the bottom{ tool to set your firewall settings to highest. When using the internet, you may have to back it down a notch, but it is still secure.
By the way, Linux is not the only OS Doug plays with I’m sure. Windows 9x is wide open to the world, but there isn’t much you can do about it without buying more software.
Shard,
IME stands for Input Method Editor and is a tool that is used to enter Asian and other multi-byte character input. /Web is not your internet cache. That is stored in /Documents and Settings/<username>/Local/Temporary Internet Files.
My point is that you can use Windows without knowing what these directories are for. Same with Linux. There are directories that you need to be concerned with and directories that you don’t need to worry about. There is no difference between Windows and Linux. You are looking at Windows as being a seperate directory from Program Files. The fact is that they are just two sub-directories contained in the root directory C:\, or in other words /.
In Windows, many of your library files (.DLLs) are placed in the Windows directory, but not all of them. Your program executables are stored under Program Files most of the time, but not always.
In Linux, library files are usually stored in /usr/lib. X files are usually stored in /usr/X11R6/lib. Local libraries are usually stored in /usr/local/lib. This is no different than Windows Libraries being stored in C:\Windows, C:\Windows\system and C:\Windows\System32.
Again, just because the directory system is different than what you’re used to doesn’t mean it is hard or stupid. In fact, Windows is the one with the non-conforming directories. Linux shares the same structure as BeOS, OSX, BSD, and many other operating systems.
Camel: I know where inet cache is on windoze.
It’s true that linux dir system is completly different, and that’s one of the reasons it’s harder for me. BeOS uses similar structure to linux but has human readable names, not like “/usr” (i know: user, but…) and that is why i like it more, and i think it’s easier to learn than linux structure. That is why i wrote that linux dir structure is ugly.
I admit, I’m not the know all of Linux or Unix, but I know more than enough to be dangerous. The biggest problem that I see with most Unixes and Linux varieties is that they expect the user to already have some knowledge of the OS and the way it functions; especially the command-line only installations. For instance, I just installed RedHat 7.2 yesterday, and discovered that my mouse wasn’t behaving properly with the driver I had chosen in X/Gnome. So I spent a good 15 minutes fighting with an uncooperative mouse driver searching through menues trying to find the proper utility to change the mouse driver. (Eventually I did find it and successfully manage to change it to a good driver, but the average desktop OS user doesn’t have much knowledge beyond the apps that they’re trained to use.)
Now, that being said, there is no reason other than compatibility’s sake that any given user couldn’t be trained to utilize Linux/Unix as their desktop OS. As I’ve heard it told, StarOffice is very much capable of reading and writing MS Office files, so if a sys admin wanted, he or she could migrate an office or even a whole company over to Linux if they wanted to. It would just be a considerable amount of work.
Oh wait…thats right…most of those complaining are not serious about learning anything. For many of you, I feel that these ‘outburst’ are nothing more than thinly disguised attempts to shift the blame for your own questionable technical skills.
————–
ROFLMAO. It’s true, people don’t want to learn linux. Linux should learn people. In other words, it should understand people have their lives and their expertise, and they just wanna be productive. Do you expect everyone using a computer to be a geek? If so, rewind your way back 20 years and you’ll be in heaven. People don’t want to waste half their lives configuring their machines; they want to get on with doing what it is they do (music, writing, browsing, watching videos, painting, drawing) without having to ‘learn’ a lot, and just plugging and playing. Technical skills and hassles should be minimal, at best, to be able to do these tasks *easily* on a well-designed OS that takes into account intelligent engineering and user interface design.
The AnandTech article had mistakes or misconseptions about the whole story.
The kernel has no command line interface. As far as I know not even a single kernel in the whole world has a user interface (meaning end user).
A kernel just offers access to system resources to system programs and system libraries.
Another misunderstanding s the situation of GUI configuration tools. If I remember correctly, the article suggested that the desktop projects create them, for example a dialog for network configuration.
The article’s author just forgot that the desktops projects are not Linux centric, they both offer Unix desktops.
I only know the situation from KDE’s point of view, but I am pretty sure GNOME has a similar one. Unless a module is usable on all the platforms you officially support, it will never be included in the projects distribution.
However, Linux distributors are free to develop their own, even distribution specific modules, and included them in thier KDE packages.
Hmm, there’s another Kevin here… this could get confusing. lol.
microsoft has done something confusing like that home directory with windows xp except i find it more confusing. well its not so much confusing as it is a stupid choice. in linux its called home.. in windows its called my documents.
ok.. so you have your my documents folder.. and all your data goes in there.. and you have my pictures, my videos and stuff that go inside of my documents.. which i find stupid.. not a very good structure. why would you store documents in one folder. and put videos in another folder in the same folder.. microsoft should have put the my documents folder nested one directory back with my pictures and videos and called the first directory home.. or graig’s directory or my directory.. or something.. but the setup now is stupid and you can’t change it.
“goto http://www.wine.org wine’s an implementation of the windows API for linux it can runs some windows program and games and not an emulator”
wow ok so i’ll have to go play with that
“In 20 years of computing, the three best desktop OSs I’ve used are
Amiga, Be, and NeXT. NeXT has seen new life as OS X. If the Linux
community wants to do something genuinely constructive, they should
watch the fates of Amiga and Be next month, and be ready to render aid
as needed. The new Amiga OS and compatible hardware are supposed to be
coming out the first week of November. Be has their big meeting on
November 12th. ”
Unfortunately the AmigaOne hardware and AmigaOS 4.0 are going to be
delayed for a couple of months (for the usual reasons), so Feb or even
March is more likely than November.
In the meantime there is a good way to run AmigaOS 3.9 on standard PC
hardware, called Amithlon, available. This is something more than an
emulator, although it does incorporate a JIT emulator for the existing
68k code. See http://www.haage-partner.de
It’s a bit expensive, but worth it, IMO.
trakal: I didn’t say it was bad that any OS was old. I said that because Linux is a Unix clone some it could be considered older than windows, it just a different way of viewing things.
The real dicussion is that any unix is not easy to use unless you know how. I can’t jump on a unix machine and figure out how to do things with out reading throuh a heap of long winded howtos that go into far more detail than I need and hide the information in sea of padded text. It’s like reading an engineering text book that uses a page to comunicate a concpet where a paragraph would have been all that was needed. I don’t want to know every feature of program Y I want to know how to use it in it’s most basic way then when I want some extra feature I’ll look into it. And Camel this is why I don’t use Blender the interface isn’t intuitive. I know it’s a bad habit to just install progams and try to use them but alot of the time it works because the programs are intuitive. Back on my A500 I could get away with this easy and windows isn’t to hard either, the MS help is rarely helpfull anyway.
“microsoft has done something confusing like that home directory with windows xp except i find it more confusing. well its not so much confusing as it is a stupid choice. in linux its called home.. in windows its called my documents.”
I hardly ever store anything in the my documents folder because it’s a stupid system and I don’t have to. Actually I don’t even like keep storing pics, etc. on the same partition because if windows screws up the simplest way to fix it is to format C: and reinstall.
graigsmith: The address I gave was wrong, sorry it’s http://www.winehq.org
I haven’t, used Wine in a while (probably 2 years) but when I did it was pretty good at the time I managed to get it running notepad, Mappel 5, Matlab 5 and Corel Photopaint 8, they weren’t perfect some weren’t even usable. However, a lot of time has passed, so they have advanced a lot. And checking their application database quite a bit the application databased has links to guides for some software so have a look. There’s a newsgroup for wine too, which could be good to lurk in.
Linux -> For the guy who like to tinker with stuff.
Any other OS -> For the guy who like to get work done with a computer.
my 2 cents
Oh and Doug Strummer that is exactly the a**hole, cocky, i’m to smart, attitude that turns so many people off from ever learning or contributing to what is a neat OS. Comments like yours are a big part of the problem.
Ungoliant: You could say that Unix and Linux are hard but i did kind of explain that it’s only hard to people who haven’t used it first. like if you’ve been on windows using it’s interface and then went to a commmand prompt you wouldn’t know what to do. but! i could say that windows is kind of the same way cause of dos. not everyone can understand dos.
But i do agree with you as a linux/unix user that unix is hard even compared to MS-DOS (micro$oft-disabled operating system). using dos i’ve found out some things i think unix could use. such as instead of vi (which not only i don’t like, but i’ll probably never use it unless by force.) which is very hard for anyone that has no idea what the commands are, they should have on unix something simpiler any thing like edit for dos. though i think emacs is like that but it’s not default like edit is.
also for unix i found that you don’t need alot of howto’s to figure out. i actually found a really cool site that explians all of the things you would need to run into for unix/linux/bsd/mimix…ect. it was alot better than unix for dummies, or at least i thought (cause it cut out all of the fat.)
for his main site: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/milhous/home.html.htm
for the unix howto: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/milhous/unix.htm
that’s for you interested in unix or any unix like os ^^^^
shard: well i was thinking that they’d have to lock out alot of things, and i wasn’t really thinking it would be like they’d get an actual choice of WM’s. maybe something like a distro with just gnome, updated libraries, top kernel for that time. i think gnome would be easy enough for teachers. i’m not sure about the people who would teach the teachers like you said. but i think if you convinced some of those guru’s that if linux was to go into schools that it would give more linux/unix administrators more jobs for networking schools, teaching the teachers, system administration, so on.
course the schools run off from the state and government, and that would probably to logical. having linux in schools is like saying that the government going off to pay the national dept, have no taxes, and free health care.
Sorry Mike, OS X actually uses a Mach kernel (like Next OS), which at least according to Linus Thorvalds is shit
In my opinion 2 things need to happen to bring Linux to the mainstraim desktop OS market:
1. easier hardware & software configuration/installation & updates – using the CLI should not be necessary for this
2. then more Joe Average users would be using it and this would bring more apps to the platform – problem solved (though MS’s prebundling contracts with computer manufaturers would have to be changed by the courts first)
Sorry Mike, OS X actually uses a Mach kernel (like Next OS), which at least according to Linus Thorvalds is shit
In my opinion 2 things need to happen to bring Linux to the mainstraim desktop OS market:
1. easier hardware & software configuration/installation & updates – using the CLI should not be necessary for this
2. then more Joe Average users would be using it and this would bring more apps to the platform – problem solved (though MS’s prebundling contracts with computer manufaturers would have to be changed by the courts first)
i mean the governmnet goint to pay off the national dept, _or_ make it where there is no taxes _or_ have free health care.
i’ve noticed something about people when they say that linux needs to be easier. most of the people i’ve heard that have said that have probably used windows or apple as their fist operating system. so of course they say it should be easier cause their used to windows or apple. but when their talking about it being easier it sounds more like they want it more like windows or apple which linux isn’t going to aim for.
MSulibuk: i got to say something. i use linux for work, to get things done. to tell you the truth i actually tinker with windows. windows i find is fun to crash, cause that’s what windows are good for.
but i do get alot of work done in linux cause of the apps pre-installed. i find that the apps which where pre-installed with windows. i’m talking about if you were to go to the store and buy windows98 windows. you install that all you get is what? notepad, write, paint, internet explorer and a bunch of other premitive apps.
not only all of the apps are preinstalled on linux but it doesn’t crash on me at all… or as much, i get a crash once a month, and i’m on that 7 times more than windows. compared to windows which… hmm… how should i put it um… i don’t like to have my system crash while i’m actually doing my important work.
so in conclusion
windows and sometimes appleOS (not OSX)> tinker os’s
any unix like os’s -> for the person that has important work
any other-> cool projects which i would look forward to using some day.
Thanks for the links, I alreday knew a few of the commands but that was really useful.
BTW my I grew up using Amiga OS1.3
I have QNX installed and I play with it a bit, the good thing is it has a lovley hardware setup, I just type the IP address and subnet masks or DHCP settings for my NIC’s and it runs.
It also has a nice package manager that installs everything you tell it too, I just wish I knew what it was actually doing because I’d like to know a little of what’s going on. I’m thinking about using it as my main OS eventually it’s just needs a few things first like BPA (GNU log in tool for my cable modem normal ones don’t work with my ISP).
I actually like the Unix command prompt, it’s far better than DOS, it’s so much easier to move diretories about and delete files. I even tried to find a Shell for windows that was like it. The Cygwin compiler for windows has one but you can’t run windows executables from it. so after you’ve compiled you program you have to run it in Windows. I also found a version of ZSH but it wasn’t very good. :/
The university I go to has a lot of unix machines hidden away so we can’t use them. They even got rid of an e-mail system that had pine (such a wonderfull email client) and replaced it with the horrible web based mail that get errors when there are to many users and thus people lose their posts. However the electrical engineering faculty has a DEC alpha Server and all electrical engineering students have a login in I acctually use it for my e-mail (it’s got pine) even though remote access is a chore, it’s a good machine but it’s so out of date in software.
I’ve run vi a few times and then press ctrl-z afterwards it seems so user unfriendly, the interface decribes how to use it but it doesn’t work for me. I must be misinterpreting the instruction? I like emacs more anyway, but QNX dosen’t have it yet AFAIK.
I like to tinker with windows too. I used to play with LiteStep and other shell replacements. And hack the registry but because I reistall windows a lot it take ages to get the machine running with it all of them so I can’t be bothered anymore. That’s why Unix is good cause once you get it the way you like it you leave the beast alone.
I just had the most wonderfull experince, I put an old 500Mb HD in my computer to put win95 because I have a TV tunner card which only has drivers for 95 and I wanted to use it. So I booted up and in the POST it only detected the 500MB HD I thought “oh well that CD-ROM’s causing hardware not to appear again, least I can put win95 on the drive”. I format it and install 95, it boots up works, etc. So I shutdown and remove the CD-ROM from the computer, start up again and it stops just before laoding an OS. I played with it till I got fed up and took the 500Mb HD out leaving my 20Gb in, still wouldn’t boot an OS. So I put 20GB HD in another computer that I knew booted to see if the drive still worked. Turns out it had formated a 500Mb patition on my 20Gb HD and installed win95 no wonder it didn’t boot because the partition was pretty messed up. I had the pleasure of installing win2K again and now it’s back up. Needless to say I was not happy, I lost data and I wasted time, I yelled a lot of nasty words about Intel, x86, IDE and MS, its enough to turn me off the platform entirely and IDE drives. Such is life though. (:|
Ungoliant: your right about the directories and things like that. unix is great like that. i also love the fact that in unix is a true multi-tasking os unlike dos, and the fact that in unix i could do something like this:
ymessenger & nt & mozilla http://www.osnews.com/ & gedit hello.unix.txt & soffice & gimp & nautilus &
which pops up in a wm or enviroment: yahoo messenger, download manager X, mozilla to the main site here, a gedit file name hello.unix.txt, staroffice, gimp, and nautilus.
the other thing about this is that there’s no limit and that you can create a shell file witch does this for you, which aren’t so hard to make. and with dos… well… to tell you the truth i don’t use the shell much at all when i’m in windows other than for edit and making directories.
i never really liked dos for the windows 95 and after cause of the weird executable commands. i never knew what file you could just type in a command an d a program pops up or is in the shell. i had a basic idea that the executables were in the c:\windows\ file but other than that.
Trakal: hmmm.. another problem is in linux “windows”. I mean, it has bad responsivness. It’s slow as desktop os. So another thing to do, before installing it at schools, is to make it at least as fast as windows/mac os (heh, BeOS speed is the best
, because if children will see that loading an app, switching windows, is much faster on computers with other os… You will get another ppl like me – ppl who doesn’t like linux (and in fact i curse it a lot sometimes when i must do something with it. Each day i curse windows, too – i have to use it at work because of apps it has).
your forgeting that the sacifice of speed gives it stability (or at least it seems that way). i know that some programs take a while to load but linux i know wasn’t made for exact speed. like i know that it takes ~5 seconds for adobe photoshop to start on my computer (my computer is a 550mhz p3), gimp took me probably ~5-6 seconds. realplayer in linux as example is actually alot faster than in realplayer in windows, it’s also alot better in linux. but these things depend on what distro and how updated they are. i’m running mandrake 8.1 right now.
but i think people that look at it finacially will see that cutting a few seconds on _some_ apps for over a hundred dollars isn’t really worth it.
to tell you the truth when i go into windows the only things i find faster is internet explorer(as a file manager), and windows base apps. course the file manager is faster in comparision is cause i use nautilus.
Internet Explorer as browser is much faster at startup (i’m comparing to RedHat7.1 + KDE 2 distro), as file manager too. I can’t compare macromedia fireworks and flash (apps which i need at work) because there is no linux version. Gimp is a great app, but… well it is still beind Photoshop (although i don’t like Photoshop and hate Adobe for what they have done to author of linux app). Generally all windowed apps i’ve tried on linux (even preferences things) loaded much longer than apps in windoze and BeOS.
well i guess that is fair to say, i don’t really use redhat, never did like it, but i did like the .rpm files they started.
but linux has only been out there for 10 years compared to windows, or even their first os dos it was i think… 20 years ago. it’s obviously catching up. and also the fact that linux pretty much was made by scratch, compared so microsoft which had to buy dos from some guy, not really sure who though.
and i’m not even sure about beos. though i’ve tried beos personal eddition, but i never really liked it enough to make it an actual os i’d use for the desktop. to tell you the truth linux was alot more user friendly than beos, in my opinion.
also about gimp, i’ve found to be way better than adobe photoshop. i noticed the term freedom not free kind of is how i express it, cause adobe photoshop for windows sucks, it’s like using program manager in windows, all of the windows for adobe photoshop can only in the program window. which is why i like gimp cause i can totaly adviod that limiting window. plus another thing that gimp has over adobe photoshop is the fact that gimp is free to download from the net and adobe photoshop is $600.
kind of reminds me of the time i was talking to my friend about what c programing software would i buy. he said “why wouldn’t you get Visual C++?” i simpily said that “Cause i’d get something cheaper like GNU C++ compiler.” he then asked “GNU? Those guys suck.” (my friend doesn’t know jack as you can see) “well if your talking about their apearance than i guess they do, but i got to ask you, would you rather rely on a program to make programs or would you learn c++ so you could understand making a program instead?”
though that doesn’t seem to have alot in common in the photoshop vs gimp, it did have a point on those questions, really good ones too. would you pay for software or would you buy it? would you use a program to make programs or would you learn c++ to understand and be able to make the program?
It depends on what You like (i’m used to have one main window for one app
. I’m not saying Gimp is bad. Guys who wrote it are really good, and done it for free. I’m just saying that Photoshop is better for proffesionals -> ppl who make gfx for printing. Another thing: i have a friend who liked linux (although more for philosophy, he uses windoze 
and when there was a new release of Gimp he installed it (first installed linux). He couldn’t stop saying me that Gimp is great, superb etc.. After a while (he tried BeOS and loved it, but lack of gfx apps made him use windoze again) he got Photoshop again (and now he is so silent about gfx apps… and he uses adobe).
I have Visual C++ and i like it. I’ve never used mfc. I’ve always build windows (well it wasn’t too much times, i’m lazy programmer
by calling api. I agree that those “rapid” building thingies make ppl lazy, and most of them don’t know language too good because of that, but it depends on ppl. I started learning programming from Delphi (very easy, rapid apps building app 
, after that i started to look in sources to know what is what exactly, after that i tried to use assembler as inline. Next thing was Visual c++ and learning c, reason? DirectX is c/c++ native 
I’m not saying i i’m good coder, or that i have the Knowledge. I’m just saying that You can learn if You want (on BeOS i use gcc now, with BeOS IDE as a editor, BeHappy as help for API, and Don’tWorry as fast hint to functions 
.
I think a lot of the disparity in the perception of Linux’s usability comes from time. Once you have Linux set up the way you want–X video display at a good default bit depth and resolution, nice desktop or window manager with your commonly-used applications ready at the click of an icon or menu line, sound card recognized and happy, automount daemon running, NFS or Samba set up if you need them, it’s pretty much as easy to use as any other operating system. There might be UI quirks that annoy one who’s used other UIs–the inconsistent behavior between apps for drag-and-drop and clipboard access is legendary, for instance. But nothing’s likely to be a make or break problem at that point.
The problem is that if the last time you went through that setup was a year or two ago–or even a couple mnoths ago–you’re not looking at things from the perspective of a new user going through the install procedure. BeOS surely doesn’t have the hardware support Linux does, no, but the install procedure for BeOS was pretty much: (a) put in the CD, (b) point it at an install procedure, (c) click the Japanese language support or “optional files” checkboxes if you want to, (d) press “Install.” Wait for a while, boot into the newly-installed BeOS, open the control panel and set your display settings and network settings (for a lot of us, clicking “Assign addresses with DHCP”). And that’s it. If it DOES know your hardware, it’s already found it and “installed” it. And if you change it, at worst you have to put a new file in a “drivers” directory.
Incidentally, at work I use a FreeBSD system as a desktop workstation and it’s fine; I know why people think it makes a better server than Linux, but I don’t see why they think it makes a worse desktop machine. Linux is a touch more bleeding-edge, but BSD is a touch more consistent, and in my experience has been a bit easier to tweak. (Things that Linux scatters among files in the /etc directory are often just in one file in FreeBSD, /etc/rc.conf.) For a window manager I’m using XFce, which is lightweight, supports KDE and GNOME applications, and is quite configurable without ever touching a text editor. It also comes with its own Explorer-like file manager which is very fast, allows “associations” like Windows–and as I noticed the other day, does directory node monitoring (i.e., when I added a new file to a directory from a terminal window cp command, it immediately showed up in the file manager window).
> Sorry Mike, OS X actually uses a Mach kernel (like Next OS), which at least
> according to Linus Thorvalds is shit
I do remember Linus voicing his dislike for Mach.
I seem to remember reading on spine of the retail box for OS X that Open Mach is layered on top of a FreeBSD kernel. Of course, I don’t have a box handy…
WattsM: is FreeBSD fast and responsive as desktop os? if so, can You give me some good site address for totally newbies?
i never could set up bsd for this box for some reason. i like the idea of using bsd but installing linux was a heck of alot easier (depending on distro). the idea of using it was that i didn’t have to rely on .rpm files… which now that i’ve started to use a redhat spin off i’m starting to like rpm’s alot better than .tgz. mostly cause of how easy it is to use.
also i’ve seen a problem with bsd now. it’s that, yes it maybe a free os but i don’t see tucows listing it’s software, or download.cnet.com or any were else i’ve looked. but i might actually try to check out BSD one of these days if i can find a software archive. other wise i’m sticking would be sticking to linux.
i never could set up bsd for this box for some reason. i like the idea of using bsd but installing linux was a heck of alot easier (depending on distro). the idea of using it was that i didn’t have to rely on .rpm files… which now that i’ve started to use a redhat spin off i’m starting to like rpm’s alot better than .tgz. mostly cause of how easy it is to use.
also i’ve seen a problem with bsd now. it’s that, yes it maybe a free os but i don’t see tucows listing it’s software, or download.cnet.com or any were else i’ve looked. but i might actually try to check out BSD one of these days if i can find a software archive with normal apps for bsd. other wise i’m sticking would be sticking to linux.
bsd can run linux programs
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2000/03/17/linuxapps.html
>I do remember Linus voicing his dislike for Mach.
Too bad he never said why. On Slashdot I would moderate his comments to troll. Nothing against Linus, but someone in his position shouldn’t make comments like “x sucks”.
>I seem to remember reading on spine of the retail box for OS X that Open Mach >is layered on top of a FreeBSD kernel. Of course, I don’t have a box handy…
It’s got a Mach-kernel with a BSD-layer on top of it. These two are called Darwin. The BSD-layer is based on FreeBSD.
You can run Darwin on x86, so you can try it out yourself. Here is a link to the Darwin project:
http://www.opensource.apple.com/projects/darwin/
Doh! Well, at least I remebered there were two parts…
There are only three reasons why Linux has not killed off all the other real os’s (microsloth OS’s are not real OS’s)
1. SCALABILITY: It does not scale well. Yes, I know 2.4.x makes huge improvements over 2.2.x in this department, but the fact remains – I can not run Linux on a 3000 node Alphaserver cluster (e.g. Pittsburgh supercomputing center) and expect to get anywhere near the performance as Tru64’s AlphaServer SC clustering. (disclaimer: OK, so I admit, I work for Compaq, but the opinions here are my own, not my employers)
2. MANAGABILITY: As long as I have to manually log into every Linux box that I administer, managing them becomes a big pain in the arse when you have dozens, or hundreds of boxes to care for.
3. FAULT TOLERANCE: Linux needs to be much more aware of hardware/environment monitoring sensors and such to be more serious as a mission critical server. Also, linux needs to deal better with error cases and failures. e.g. if I have two 800Mbit HIPPI, or even two 2Gb fibre channel SAN cards in my Linux box, it should nativey be able to do load balancing between the two, and support automatic failover in case one card or connection should fail.
I’m as big of a Linux fan as they get (been using Linux regularly since December 1995), and regularly deal with corporations trying to use Linux in the enterprise – these are the big three complaints that I hear.
well i was wondering why BSD didn’t have their own section in tucows lately. so bsd can run linux apps… hmm cool. i might start using bsd soon then.
If you get the source code for a linux app it has an autoconfig for making make scripts for BSD’s, SunOS, etc.
Looking at the Darwin web site, they have a new version since I was last there, maybe this one will finish booting cause it’s woth a look.
It is exactly true.
RTFM does not mean that if a beginner reads it, he will understand it.
BeOs made Linux look bad. Had things gone the other way with support, BeOS could have easily taken Windows on a desktop competition.But it didn’t happen. But it was ahead of its time.
Now, as to Mac Users, I am happy for you.
But as one with limited funds, I had to buy a PC I could afford. Which
meant a Dell or a Gateway or some many other RETAIL brands. So I had to
buy what I could get AND afford. Sure,I wanted to get rid of Windows.
SO I BOUGHT LINUX…supported the cause.
But when I went to get help, different story, most of the time.
Linux users seem to not realize they are losing ground every time someone
tries it and quits because of the technicality of it, or the snooty attitude
someone comes across quickly, trying to learn.
The big boys who know things are working to make it simpler…
It is the wannabe small-time ‘experts’ with a Terminal obsession that are the problem. Just read higher in this thread…it proves my point.
Manuals need to be in simple English. So do help sites.
And why don’t Linux people admit some things can work under GUI’s and EVEN
drag and drop? Because they do.
I know, it wasn’t worth two cents. But the OS that can do what Linux
does and is accessible to beginners will be successful…and LINUX guys,
your apps and development will all follow THAT OS.
Linux should be winning hands down. But it isn’t, not on the desktop.
Because many users don’t know how to aid the beginners. Office workers
didn’t choose WINDOWS, you know. They didn’t CHOOSE to be dumbed down.
Give the new guys a break!