“On the contrary, I would argue that Open Source and JBoss in particular are already Sun’s best defense against Microsoft .NET. Only Open Source has proven uniquely resilient to a Microsoft onslaught. In the same way that Linux has prevented MS NT from dominating the server operating system, JBoss will prevent .NET from making serious inroads into the application server tier, the crucial gateway to enterprise software applications.” Read the article at Jboss.org.
JBoss Responds to McNealy’s Hammering of Open Source Marketing
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Eugenia, i definitely like your Linux review, far more serious than the classical “it’s rock” laudatory whe can read on the net.
But on this topic, just let me say that you come at least one month late.
First, jboss is more a “open family” money maker project than a true open-source project. ( just give a look to the involved persons on the “project” ). Regarding money, an open-sourcee project is, before everything, an open documentation project. Just give a look to the download section…
Second, the new may have stand as an opportune one just a month ago. Unfortunatly for the jboss people, Sun have just release a totally free release of “appserver7”, which seem a little more acurate on technical and viable points of view.
Third, speak in term of “crucial gateway for enterprise” for a project which is clearly not supporting the latest jvm and will not support it in the near future, is a just a bad joke.
That said, Eugenia, i will read you with the same pleasure.
I am sorry for submitting the article. It turns out that it was published arround the 28th of august.
> Second, the new may have stand as an opportune one just a > month ago. Unfortunatly for the jboss people, Sun have
> just release a totally free release of “appserver7”,
> which seem a little more acurate on technical and viable > points of view.
What do you mean? I don’t think they managed to get better performance then JBoss3. I have not had time to look at appserver7. Does it have the hotdeploy architecture? Also, JBoss was the first EJB container to work with Dynamic Proxies. I think JBoss can compete on the technical points.
> Third, speak in term of “crucial gateway for enterprise” > for a project which is clearly not supporting the latest > jvm and will not support it in the near future, is a just > a bad joke.
Did you check the latest builds of JBoss? There were some pretty serious bugs in java 1.4. They might have been fixed with 1.4.1 though.
P.S. Don’t bash Eugenia. She just copied a quote from the article.
So, JBoss is going to stop .NET? What is going to stop Mono?
Dunno? Isn’t Mono just a way to make .Net platform independent like J2EE allready is? I must admit that .Net and C# look like very good technology. Gartner research predicts that J2EE and .Net will coexist for the foreseeable future and interoperate using Web services.
In case you didn’t know, Mono can never be a complete .NET/C# port. As some parts are legally protected and cannot be reproduced.
Why switch to .NET, when you have Java?
>In the same way that Linux has prevented MS NT from dominating the server operating system,
Linux hasn’t done anything of the sort …
live up to their promise and give JBOSS the stamp of JEE approval? McNealy has promised so many times at numerous interviews, yet, hasn’t delivered.
As for .NET being a crossed platform framework, GET REAL! don’t point to the rotor project, because even the Microsoft employees admit is lacks core features found in the close source Windows version, it also executes code alot slower than its win32 counterpart.
I think is it about time people faced up and realise that .NET is a Microsoft Windows only framework. You may be able to get 70% of the funcationality working, but don’t expect 100%, especially with all the quirks and “enhacements” Microsoft can put on their own version.
First of all, please don’t say there are things that open source can’t duplicate for legal reasons…of heard of DeCSS? Such things may be illegal in America and select other accomplices to the death of our freedom…but things like WinForms can and will be duplicated by open source if demand calls for it…this is a certainty…they just might have to be developed in Russia or somewhere…and of course the ‘net makes anonymous submissions pretty easy for bad-ass american developers
With OSS anything is possible…the sky truly is the limit
-bytes256
Without ‘dotcom’ to inflate Sun’s profits… we can see that Sun is intellectually, spiritually and economically bankrupt.
They are not trying to solve any problems for their customers. Instead, Sun is just trying their best to shut out all solutions except for their own.
Sun has no idea how to grow a software ecosystem.
Time for McNealy to hire someone who actually has a software background to run the software side of Sun.
(pinkie)
watching sun go down like this, McNealy doesnt get great press in financial papers, I wonder why…
need improvements. So say the least, Flow, Border, GridLayout suck
@Anonymous:
> First, jboss is more a “open family” money maker project than a true open-source project. ( just give a look to the involved persons on the “project” ). Regarding money, an open-sourcee project is, before everything, an open documentation project. Just give a look to the download section..
JBoss is an open source project. Its source is open. You can download and play with it. Period. Open source does not mean that people will not get money from that project. So, how should we regard MySQL as?
@Hans Speijer:
> Did you check the latest builds of JBoss? There were some pretty serious bugs in java 1.4. They might have been fixed with 1.4.1 though.
First of of Hans, it is quite clear for me that you don’t know much about Java world. Are you trolling or what? Can you please list me the serious bugs in Java 1.4? I think it is the most fastest and robust Java release. The latest version especially rocks with added two new garbage collectors. Oh, and guess what? JBoss runs beautifully with Java 1.4, much faster than it runs with Java 1.3.
@Therandthem:
>So, JBoss is going to stop .NET? What is going to stop Mono?
There is no need to stop Mono. It will be a Linux toy. Java is cross platform. .NET is NOT.
@Anonymous:
need improvements. So say the least, Flow, Border, GridLayout suck
Did you check out the latest layouts in Java 1.4? I think they are quite nice and usable. If you don’t like them, you can always use open source layouts, such as the most beautiful layout manager I’ve seen up to date, Explicit Layout. By the way, what the hack is the relation with Java layouts and the JBoss? Ah, trolls.
@All the people related in Open Source Front:
There are many open source projects done with Java. Go to Sourceforge and check out Java foundry. Or go to Apache Jakarta, or to Enhydra, or to IBM etc.
Now bigots, please go to
http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/print.php/1489961
and read before making up stupid submissions to OSNews in the name of bashing Sun and Java. It talks about new Java Community Process version 2.5, released at the end of this October, to see how Sun and Open Source are getting closer to each other: For instance,
“2.5 also makes it possible for developers to legally open-source Java for the first time.”
MS is the one who hates Open Source, it views it as communistic efford, like a virus, and perceive it as number one enemy. They are even not hiding it. Also there are Halloween documents you know. The 7th released couple of weeks ago. There are many open source projects supported by Sun. JXTA, Netbeans, etc. So, get real.
By the way, probably the trolls who know everything about Java on this site probably also know there are more than one open sourced J2EE EJB container implementations. Apart from JBoss, OpenEjb is shining with its incredibly nice modular architecture.
Here it is:
http://openejb.sf.net/
<< Java is cross platform. .NET is NOT
From the comercial point of view .NET is not cross platform. And it will never be (Mono, dotGNU are NOT .NET) and Microsoft will never ever make a .NET implemetation
for Linux, Unix or FreeBSD. But they might make an OSX one.
From a technical point of view…oh yeaa…NET IS crossplatform.
<<JBoss will prevent .NET from making serious inroads into the application server tier.
That’s pathetic.
>From the comercial point of view .NET is not cross platform. >And it will never be (Mono, dotGNU are NOT .NET) and >Microsoft will never ever make a .NET implemetation
>for Linux, Unix or FreeBSD.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/07/SharedSourceCLI/defa…
Mono is not complete .NET. Period. Wine emulation for Winforms is not the same thing. What about Enterprise Services package? What about ADO.NET?
Rotor for Free BSD is also not complete .NET, moreover, it is only allowed to run .NET applications for academic purposes. Moreover the implementation is really bad.
.NET on Mac OSX? There is one funny implementation just to say there is .NET on Mac OSX too.
.NET is not cross platform. Even our consultants from MS are saying that it will never be.
Anonymus : That’s SSCLI not .NET. There IS a difference.
Croanon: Explain why the SSCLI implementation is really bad.
Come down dude .NET DOESN’T have to be cross platform to succed. On the desktop side THERE IS NO Java. .NET runs on +80 % on the desktops. On the enterprise side…muhahha…do u really wanna compare .NET with the convulted crap that is J2EE ?!! Java is dying man…if Tiger will be a fiasco you can kiss Java goodbye…
I thing that HANS was not trolling here, because
this is what java.sun.com tolds us about the changes made from 1.4 to 1.4.1!
<u>Bug Fixes</u>
As the first maintenance release to J2SE 1.4.0, over 2000 bug fixes were integrated in J2SE 1.4.1.
Additionally, changes and improvements have been made in the following areas:
Compiler and Class File Format Changes.
Javadoc
AWT
SWING
Java Naming and Directory InterfaceTM API
Networking
RMI
Internationalization
Security
Kerberos Service and DNS Name Lookup
…
I agree with HANS, the JVM e.g. HAD some serious bugs… THAT serious that e.g. a applet of our company just crashed the whole browser immediatly so that there was no way to get a clue about what was wrong!(this applied on all mainstream Browsers-Gecko’s/IE/Opera)
With 1.4.1 this does not happen anymore!
-A
This is kind of a troll so apologies in advance.
here’s a link to an old Ars Tech article explaining some of the details of “.NET framework” – which is what we are discussing right?:
http://arstechnica.com/paedia/n/net/net-1.html.
Here’s a link to the MONO rationale:
http://www.go-mono.com/rationale.html
It does not appear that .NET will be a “toy” NOR that MONO will be as feature incomplete as mentioned previously (although I agree that it will never be 100%).
It may be unwise to underestimate the potential impact of this technology (and how widespread it could become). I suspect that eventually MONO will be the best OSS “defense” against .NET.
Just my humble opinion…
@KLAMANT:
> Anonymus : That’s SSCLI not .NET. There IS a difference.
Croanon: Explain why the SSCLI implementation is really bad.
Come down dude .NET DOESN’T have to be cross platform to succed. On the desktop side THERE IS NO Java. .NET runs on +80 % on the desktops. On the enterprise side…muhahha…do u really wanna compare .NET with the convulted crap that is J2EE ?!! Java is dying man…if Tiger will be a fiasco you can kiss Java goodbye..
1. “Why SSCLI implementation is really bad?” Compare number of classes of SSCLI .NET implementation and Windows .NET implementation. Also compare what you are permitted to write and run.
2. “Come down dude .NET DOESN’T have to be cross platform to succed.” Why should I use .NET if it is not going to be cross platform if I can produce the same results
3. “On the desktop side THERE IS NO Java.” Oh really? I am using minimum 5 Java desktop applications every day, including Eclipse, the best IDE written ever ( http://www.eclipse.org )(excluding vim and emacs of course.)
4. “.NET runs on +80 % on the desktops.” Java runs on +99% since it also runs on all the Windows platforms and Linux, and Unix, and Solaris, and FreeBSD, and BeOS, and MacOSX etc.
5. “On the enterprise side…muhahha…do u really wanna compare .NET with the convulted crap that is J2EE ?!!” On the server side? I think you mean on Windows based server side.
J2EE is a great framework. Lots of big companies are using the convulted crap that is J2EE, for example EBay.
6. “Java is dying man…if Tiger will be a fiasco you can kiss Java goodbye..” Java cannot die. The reason? All the application servers available except for the MS’s .NET is based on the convulted mass called J2EE. IBM, ORACLE, HP, SUN, MACROMEDIA, ORION etc. servers are ALL based on J2EE. There are very good open source J2EE implementations such as JBoss, Open EJB. You cannot even compare running an open source application server with running .NET. “Windows and .NET is cheaper on the long run” my ass. Go to http://www.javaskyline.org and click on the server tab to see how many J2EE implementations there are. Windows .NET server lagged more than one year.
7. Tiger is really a very important release. I believe that its gonna be a good release, since I see that Sun is getting feedback for it for a long time.
@Erku:
Oh, I don’t think that you are a troll, you just believe everything you read.
Yes, Mono site is open for more than a year, still implementing crippled version of .NET, although MS is preparing to release the new version, which we cannot know if they will commit to ECMA. If not, it is so good for MS, since applications developed by Mono will run on Windows, but the applications developed on Windows will not run on Linux.
Now, please show me a single professional application written with .NET.
I am not planning to use Mono. Why should I? With Java I can write everything I want, and they run on anywhere including Windows and Linux.
@andreas_dr:
>As the first maintenance release to J2SE 1.4.0, over 2000 bug fixes were integrated in J2SE 1.4.1.
Yes, and it is quite normal. Although there were bugs, lots of programs were working since there were workarounds for the most critical bugs. Also, number of bugs do not signify the importance of the bugs. Indeed, 2000 is even a small number for a project as big as Java, which runs on different environments. (Many of the bugs are OS specific.) In any case, JBOSS was working quite well with JDK 1.4, which was the main subject of the related post. One more thing, “Changes and improvements are made” does not mean that they are made because it was buggy. They for example added 2 new garbage collector, optimized Swing performance incredibly on both Windows and Linux, added some new functionality etc. In the end, latest version of Java rocks.
I repeat…
I agree with HANS, the JVM e.g. HAD some serious bugs… THAT serious that e.g. a applet of our company just crashed the whole browser immediatly so that there was no way to get a clue about what was wrong!(this applied on all mainstream Browsers-Gecko’s/IE/Opera)
With 1.4.1 this does not happen anymore!
There were 2000 BUGS… this is a quite HUGE amount of them!
Too much, of course, NO MATTER how large a project is.
Beside that is that the project did not gained from 1.3 to 1.4 that big. That means bugs related to previous version were mainly bugfixed of course before 1.4.
I dont care about that-that much! I can say to our customers just upgrade to 1.4.1 and you’ll have no problems!
But on the other side the customers whines about updating e.g. 200 Clients with a THAT huge JVM update!
…hmm.Those poor admins….
-A
PS:Suns JAVA 1.4 is faster and additionally 1.4.1 is more stable, so I can conclude 1.4.1 (from my experience) rocks!
I’m not opposed to the notion of cross-platform software, but (depending upon the application) it certainly isn’t the magic, all-important consideration the Java weenies think it is. I think interoperability (e.g., via protocols like SOAP) is vastly more important.
On the other hand, I like the fact that Java middleware can be deployed to just about any platform with a JVM. Unfortunately, I don’t like Java’s middleware and really loathe its data access architecture. So for the moment I’ll stick with ADO.NET on Windows, which is vastly superior. (Let the flames begin. But before you do, make sure you have some real, working knowledge of ADO.NET. And make sure you understand how completely different in every way it is from ADO. You cannot criticize ADO.NET by criticizing ADO. They are as different as night and day.)
Wine emulation, what is that? Perhaps you should look up what WINE stands for 🙂
Mono’s SWF uses winelib not WINE, which makes it as native as any anything coded in GTK or QT in my book, its just a really bad API they’re using.
.. but the jboss website is really ugly. uggh
David Burnett said:
“Mono’s SWF uses winelib not WINE, which makes it as native as any anything coded in GTK or QT in my book, its just a really bad API they’re using.”
It’s also interesting to note that Microsoft’s .NET Windows forms implementation is just a wrapper around the W32 library (for speed reasons). Mono’s doing the same thing, except they’re wrapping winelib. Plus, you gain the added bonus of being able to use GTK#, QT#, and maybe others, on linux. GTK# also works on Windows (to an extent)… See:
http://www.go-mono.org/images/SqlSharpGtkScreenshot3.png
For a shot of a GTK# app on Windows talking to a SQLServer using Mono.
JP
That link would correctly be…
http://www.go-mono.org/images/SqlSharpGtkScreenshot3.png
Feel free to delete the above post, Eugenia…
http://www.go-mono.org/images/SqlSharpGtkSceenshot3.png
@CroanoN
First of of Hans, it is quite clear for me that you don’t know much about Java world. Are you trolling or what?
I’ve been involved with Java since 1.0.4. I make my living as a senior Java engineer and think I know my shit. I ran into two bugs with 1.4 that were acknoledged by Sun, one of which is fixed by now. We could not support 1.4 because of these bugs and we still can’t because there still is a bug in the 1.4.1 JNI implementation. We have found a workaround but it is to risky for us to officialy support it without running a full suite of tests.
If you really want to know where this bug is try accesing a running Java system through JNI where a new thread has been created outside of the VM. Most works fine after syncing the Environment but you will run into trouble as soon as you try to create a new object through the reflection API. The system classloader will not be able to find your class.
This is a very specific bug that is extremely low level but it blocks our support.
sure has. they have also taken away from unix. which means means the REAL servers are going to linux not windows. we are not talking about youre pitiful print server, bud.
I don’t think Mono would actually succeed in making a completely compatible version of .NET. What they woudls succeed is making a better transitionary API between Windows and Linux (and other UNIX).
In the future, no matter how hard or easy Linux is, Linux would be successful in the desktop. Mono would be successful in getting apps ported to GNOME as opposed to KDE. This is because Mono is pushing for Corba (instead of Microsoft’s COM), and we all know Corba is used in GNOME, plus Mono is pushing GTK# and one day might even use GTK+ widgets in Mono.
Many one or two small apps would run on Mono without being ported, who knows? But big apps, apps that won’t be 100% .NET can be ported much more faster.