Jonathan Shapiro, main developer of Coyotos and BitC, has announced on the project’s mailing list that he has been hired by Microsoft, and that he won’t be able to continue to work on Coyotos and BitC. He promises to deliver a final release of BitC, with all the intended features, but he warns that that may not be possible. At Microsoft, he’s going to work on the Midori project.
Coyotos is a microkernel operating system with a number of goals, most of which I honestly don’t even understand correctly myself. Coyotos is an evolutionary step forward from EROS, and aims to be the first formally verified operating system. To achieve this goal, the BitC programming language was envisioned. “BitC is a new systems programming language. It seeks to combine the flexibility, safety, and richness of Standard ML or Haskell with the low-level expressiveness of C.” Shapiro was the driving force behind both projects.
“Some of you will have noticed that I have been conspicuously silent over the last three or four weeks. I have spent much of that time airborne, or in interviews at Google, Microsoft, and DARPA,” Shapiro writes, “After a fair bit of soul-searching, I have decided to accept a fairly senior position at Microsoft associated with the Midori project. The current plan has me starting there at the beginning of August.”
The Midori project is a project at Microsoft that’s in incubation, which is a step beyond Microsoft Research. Midori is believed to be a commercial implementation of Singularity, where everything is written in managed code. It also sports a security model where every application is running in a sandbox. Reports indicated that Microsoft even has a migration path ready from Windows to Midori.
Such a shame!
There’s little-enough investment in micro-kernels as it is, I believe; L4 looked the most promising, but (IIRC) even it has some unfortunate limitations, and kernels like Coyotos look so incredibly promising.
Edited 2009-04-06 10:38 UTC
That’s good for him. If he has the knowledge, he may as well work for a large corporation and make use of it.
Edited 2009-04-06 10:44 UTC
He probably can’t work on it even in his own free time :'( talking about selling your soul =)
It’s surely good for him as a person and good for the Midori project, but a bit sad for Coyotos. It looked so promising from the beginning…
Yeah, EROS and CoyotOS really looked “promising”, but I always felt that Shapiro somehow lacked the determination to push this project forward. So while I always hoped a formally verified, maybe really secure and fully functional, usable operating system would come out of this project, realistically, I knew it wouldn’t happen.
Maybe at Microsoft he really gets something done…
20 minutes ago I had never heard of BitC.
Having on occasion been quite confused by C++ overloading, the idea of C-done-right/”modern type system” sounds So Cool.
Oh well !
Yes! Give up your hopes and dreams and come work for Microsoft.
We have the best operating system in the world. It is fast, secure and popular! How do we know this? It has the most users!
We care about what our customers think – that is why every time a program “exits” a little box will appear where you can fill in your thoughts about the experience because we trust the judgement of our users more than our programmers! We always reply to these.
In the next version will be focusing on cloud computing – an incredible new cool feature that lets your computer talk to another one. Wow!
And remember, for every dollar we earn you will be given an extra pad on the back. Because we couldn’t have done it without your help.
Congratulations!
what makes you think you know more than Jonathan Shapiro
What makes you think I think I know more than Jonathan Shapiro?
as dennis leary says hey asshole, you said he gave up his hopes and dreams to work at microsoft. did you ever think you might be wrong?
and for that matter did you ever think you might be wrong about microsoft? you seem to have a lot to say about it.
I dont care about what Jonathan Shapiro does with his life. The “give up you hopes and dreams” was a reaction to “he may as well work for a large corporation and make use of it” and not about Jonathan in particular.
Well, what would I be wrong about? The products they make are crap, they do not follow the common standards, they trashtalk others publicly. The worst thing is that they can misbehave like this as much as they want because they own the market.
I’m just giving my honest oppinion. If I didnt want to be subjective I would write articles on Wikipedia.
It’s really not so bad. Once you get your Borg implants you don’t care anymore. And they pay pretty well.
Dude, the guy has to put food on the table! And MS probably approached him with the right price… Seriously, as much as I love Linux and OSS in general, I’d never decline a good job offer, no matter where it comes from. In fact, I did work for Microsoft for one and a half years! ^_^
Apparently the price of food has gone up considerably since my last visit to the grocery store.
…said the guard in the prison camp.
I’m not surprised.
I’d consider that a compliment. Guards in prison camps are doing one hell of a thankless and tough job, keeping criminals off the street and locked up.
Or, you’re referring to concentration camps in which case you’re just an idiot. Comparing working at Microsoft to working at those types of camps? A new low for you, Steve.
As a “Harold and Maude” fan, I feel I should say this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5lGjjd63kQ
Well, if you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
‘Cause there’s a million things to be
You know that there are
And if you want to live high, live high
And if you want to live low, live low
‘Cause there’s a million ways to go
You know that there are
Chorus:
You can do what you want
The opportunity’s on
And if you find a new way
You can do it today
You can make it all true
And you can make it undo
you see ah ah ah
its easy ah ah ah
You only need to know
Well if you want to say yes, say yes
And if you want to say no, say no
‘Cause there’s a million ways to go
You know that there are
And if you want to be me, be me
And if you want to be you, be you
‘Cause there’s a million things to do
You know that there are
Chorus
Well, if you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
‘Cause there’s a million things to be
You know that there are
You know that there are
You know that there are
You know that there are
You know that there are
Edited 2009-04-06 17:07 UTC
It is so rude of me to do this. And I truly apologize for replying to my own post. But I so love this old movie. And it has been such a guiding force in my life, that I can’t resist.
The 1971 trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYxOWPzZXBM&feature=related
And another delight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRlUszFnCkA
Edited 2009-04-06 17:41 UTC
Or, you know, maybe he decided that what he set out to accomplish with Coyotos and BitC was not to forward some OSS-idealism, but rather to bring the purported benefits of those systems to the masses, and that Microsoft was in a position to make that happen? If you can bring essentially the same benefit to more people, and get paid well to boot, who wouldn’t take that opportunity.
Keep in mind that often the choice of creating a new project that follows the open-source mentality is not purely about the idealism of that stance, but also the practicality of attracting volunteer developers and testers, as well as getting some peer-review and general support. There are concessions you make by going open-source which may not align with your personal goals, just as there are in aligning your talents with any business. So, do you stay “pure” and allow all your revolutionary work to wallow in obscurity on a handful of bearded men’s machines, or do you “sell out” and bring that work to the masses where it can be a real force for change, and actually help fix some of the flaws you’re so ready to attack Microsoft over.
Rather than looking at this as the OSS movement loosing a talented developer, look at it instead as Microsoft gaining an envoy familiar with that world. The more OSS-friendly people Microsoft has, especially senior ones, the more friendly and open they will become.
Actually food prices have gone up, and in an economy that just shed 600,000 jobs the past month, you actually are questioning this move? I suppose it also does not occur that just possibly he may actually have a life? Or is he suppose to simply live off the paycheck that the anti-Microsoft zealots like you pay him? You do pay him right? Now consider he probably will get a very nice salary, full benefits package + options, and a nice paid vacation + sick day package.
But I am sure the FOSS movement will counter offer right? So now he is going to work for a company that has a very good track record of job security and stability.
Thought also occurs that maybe he is mature enough to just see what Microsoft really is…a company that provides employment. Not everyone in this world lives with the blinders of fanboyism where software is a socio-political statement.
Businesses provide jobs, not ideology.
One is a statement made by an adult with responsibilities, the other is the statement that a child would make. Guess which one?
There’s a little anti-FOSS drool trickling out of the left corner of your mouth, ssa2204. And little foam dribbling out on the right. Would you like for me to hand you a napkin?
I guess the poster was right, obviously you’re not an adult. When you grow up and become a big boy you might have a mortgage, utility bills and heck you might even land a wife and kids though I wouldn’t bet on it. I can’t see anyone over 14 coming out with such drivel when it comes to the realities of life.
So, uhm… Should I be ashamed to admit that I worked for Microsoft? Or because I think that the guy made the right move by choosing a job position that pays well and gives him a lot of other benefits? Or is it because I am pushing my anti-OSS dark agenda as you accused the other gentleman on this thread?!?!
Maybe I should blame my poor English skills but I am not sure if I understand what you meant with your response, Steve. Would you please elaborate?
Nevermind the comments.
It is threaded discussions like this, that makes me wonder where the initial OS News spirit has gone to.
Sure Microsoft has lots of issues with the OSS world, but most people on this story is only bashing Microsoft and the guy without sound reasons.
Only Shapiro can say why he took the job, and to be honest, besides his family, this is no ones business.
Edit: Fixed a typo
Edited 2009-04-06 22:24 UTC
Dude, that’s a bit harsh. It’s not like he went to work for Union Carbide or DeBeers.
So he’s working on which Midori? http://sourceforge.net/projects/midori/
or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(browser)
Well most likely it’s this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(operating_system)
Now as far as names go. Microsoft, get your own! The Midori project on sourceforge has been around since Dec 31 2001. So unless MS is trying to basically name steal, they should change the name of the project. When I first read the article blurb, I was thinking “why would MS hire a guy to program on an open source browser.” then also found the Midori Linux project.
Well maybe they’ll put his talents to good use, though I somehow doubt it, their programmers are great, but they are over managed. Vista is pretty much the proof of that.
It’s just a codename, like Longhorn, Wistler, Cairo, and so on, and so forth.
This was such an interesting project, does anybody know what is going to happen to the corpse? Particularly, what is going to happen to bitC?
The sentence at the end of the summary states (EMPHASIS ADDED):
“He PROMISES to deliver a final release of BitC, with all the intended features, but he warns that that MAY NOT be possible.”
How does one promise something with all the intended features and then say that it might not be possible after just promising that very thing??
Edited 2009-04-06 13:37 UTC
He has conflicting states of mind after his move to Microsoft. A kind of developer limbo. The same thing happened to the guys who worked on WinFS.
That isn’t a conflict, its another way of someone saying that they’ll do the best they can to meet the promise but it might not be possible if Microsoft insists that he can’t continue on with it.
Viengoos and Genode are here. Coyotos was looking a good hope for Hurd. But now, Vinegoos on L4Ka are the mainstream, nothing is lost.Hopefully we will soon see an Hurd release along these lines. Who knows maybe we can boot Syllable on it.
…for hiring people like this, and I don’t believe he has sold his soul by going and working for Microsoft. It may very well be that Microsoft has brought him on-board specifically for what he is developing, and he sees a way of that coming to fruition that otherwise wouldn’t be possible.
We’ve seen some good stuff come from Microsoft over the years, generally when they weren’t trying to monopolise a market, and generally when they’ve brought people like this on-board, but after the flashes of brilliance they’d slip back into monopoly mode. However the post-Bill Microsoft seems to no longer be just about owning the market by buying up anything the competition creates and shelving it or re-badging it as their own, they seem to be looking to fix their issues from the past with projects like Midori, and kudos to them for that.
Hopefully this and their other current forward thinking projects will be the norm for the future or Microsoft and not just more flashes of brilliance, and the signs are that that culture has changed. Lets hope that they (and all of their competitors – Apple I’m looking at you) have also learned the lesson about releasing products that aren’t ready…
First, I serious respect Shap by all his knowledge and I would be glad if someday I could reach 10% of his skills. But most part of the time he looks just unreachable, in the past I tried for many months talk about OpenCM [1] with him and he never replied me back about that subject.
Second and most important, all his projects was always turned to academic ends and now his efforts must be directed to a company who needs something feasible to be sold in the market at the end of the project.
Who am I to judge but I really dont believe that shap could capable to doing that, and I’m not talking about his skills but only about his profile. He really IS a scientist not a project manager…
[1] – http://www.opencm.org/
Edited 2009-04-06 22:36 UTC
Why doesn’t he just release the project(s) as Open Source. Release the final product, release the source…open it to the world-body, and then wash your hands of it? Plain and simple. Then you can see your project either take a life of it’s own, or die because no one cares.
Because he don’t want to?
Because Microsoft doesn’t want him to.
Companies cost a lot of money. But individual people are easy to buy.
Edited 2009-04-07 02:59 UTC
Is he going to develop further Microsoft’s project Avalanche? Then rename it to BitCurrent.
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/avalanche/default.aspx
Then distribute the next public release of WIN7 on a *.current file?
Seriously congrats to him.
Edited 2009-04-07 02:54 UTC