Submitted by The article ‘Understanding the Common User‘ points that “everything should be as simple as it is… Or even simpler” and warns that converting a common user to Linux without giving him enough protection leads to a imminent failure. A rebuttal, ‘Get Real or How Not To Convert Your Grandma to Linux‘ stresses that dumbing down is not the key to success, understanding is.
Without reading the articles I know one key point.
PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT.
Talk to my mother, it may not be possible to dumb an OS down enough to make her change.
Talk to me, I am a computer tech but I never liked Linux because the GURUs always try to bowl me over with the features. Features I don’t need and I hate how most of Linux config files are done. I don’t need dumb, but I will not waste my time for hard for the sake of being hard.
Talk to some of the serious researchers out there who need to tune everything – they want pedal to the metal performance and they don’t mind spending lots of effort to get it.
I don’t see how any design choice to can lead to a single design that can capture a large percentage of the market.
People are different only to a certain extent. I find that people are astonishingly similar. They make a conscious effort to adapt to social norms. Being different requires defending your reasoning to the rest of the crowd, which makes people uncomfortable. People do crave a sense of individuality, but often they express it by being different in exactly the same way as other people they know.
In the context of operating systems, Windows is the social norm, while Mac and Linux are the chic alternatives. People don’t switch to Linux to be different; if their motivation is social rather than technical, then their reason is to fit in with the Linux crowd. The people who really want to be different are choosing more obscure systems. Linux hasn’t been a bold statement of individuality since the turn of the century. People use it today either because of technical reasons or because it’s trendy (or a combination of these).
If you really explore how people use their home PCs, you’ll realize how similar people’s needs are. This doesn’t bode well for alternative operating systems. It’s not that you can’t “dumb down” an alternative OS like Linux enough for your mother, it’s that there’s no compelling reason for her to stop using Windows. Linux didn’t invent some new way of using her computer. It’s just a different way of doing the same sorts of tasks. What’s the point?
There is no killer new functionality that can cause a large marketshare shift from Windows to any other system. Linux is pretty much proof of that. An appropriately configured, preinstalled Linux OS offers ease of use and frustration in about the same ratio as does Windows (albeit in different areas) but without any licensing fees. However, not that many people are willing to switch to a similarly effective solution even given the significant price difference. Windows is familiar, and it’s the social norm. These reasons alone are worth the $50-200 cost of Windows for most people.
My approach to Linux advocacy is simple: Linux, or a very similar free software system, is eventually going to become the predominant OS. Maybe it will happen in 10 years. Maybe it will take 15 years. It has nothing to do with Linux being “ready for the desktop.” Windows is “ready” as well. The rate of change will have more to do with how Microsoft responds when marketshare begins to slip away in measurable quantities.
Microsoft is extraordinarily inefficient at developing software compared to the greater free software community. Rapid improvement of free software combined with pricing pressures, the gradual flight of OEMs, government initiatives, and globalization will challenge Microsoft’s revenue streams and eat into their margins. As the public becomes more exposed to Linux, it will become much more socially acceptable, especially in the developing world. Linux is currently breaking Microsoft’s monopoly, and it will gradually take marketshare.
Linux is the future of computing: switch at your own pace. It’s still a little rough in spots, but it’s way better than it was two years ago and a completely different animal than it was five years ago. Volunteers did 80% of the work on the Linux kernel two years ago, whereas today 70% is corporate contribution. Imagine what it will be like two years, or five years, from now.
People won’t switch because it’s better than Windows. People will switch because it’s cooler than Windows. They won’t switch because of the superior development frameworks. They’ll switch because of the nifty features and tight integration they allow. They won’t switch because they care about computer technology. They’ll switch because people who do have done cool things with it.
Microsoft succeeded in large part because they provided excellent development tools and won developer mindshare. Linux is succeeding by providing the code along with the development tools, and it’s taking developer mindshare away from Microsoft. The users will go where the developers go… eventually. It might take 15 years. So what?
Edited 2007-07-06 15:53
First off, thank you for the informed post. I don’t agree with you on all your points, but they are intelligent and well thought out, which is rare in places like these.
I disagree with this for one reason, Windows is the most expensive OS out there for home use, and Linux is the cheapest. If it is just a matter of a being different then b, especially since we are talking simple tasks, then that would be enough motivation for many people. I can’t count how many people I know who drive all over the city when they shop looking for the best deals, and actually end up spending more on gas then the 10c they save on lettuce.
IMHO there are two factors in play.
1) People are more or less satisfied with windows. It does what they want it to do. If they want software, they go to BestBuy and browse. If they need their computer fixed, they just have to open the phone book. This is more or less the point you made, but I think it is more then they see no reason to change, but that they are actually happy with the product.
2) What you and I view as complex is a world of difference from what they view as complex. Gui configs are for “power users”, opening a well commented config file to change a line is something that will never happen, even with you on the phone. It isnt that they wont switch to linux because of market inertia or oem deals or what not, they wont switch to linux because it simply isnt better for them, even with the vastly reduced cost and equivilent functionality. What they should be doing is switching to Macs, but hey, its more expensive.
I disagree here too. Linux is made for geeks, and there is no reason for geeks not to use it, unless they depend professionally on windows. This is where you will see the marketshare shift.
I am a big believer in a diverse ecosystem, and I don’t want to see Linux as a monopoly any more then have windows as a monopoly. Instead of a one size fits all approach, it would be better for everyone if we ended up with specialized operating systems targeting specific market segments. This would force interoperability, and create a situation where one OS flaw doesnt bring down 90% of the worlds computers.
IMHO, the perfect world would be Macs as home desktops, windows as business desktops, and Linux in the server room. This would force MS to develop more software on other platforms, and rely on quality rather then platform integration. It would also make life easier for the thousands of home users who would be using an OS more suited to their needs. I doubt it would happen, but that is what I see as ideal.
Only a very small percentage of that corporate work is aimed at desktop workstations. The vast majority of the work being done is aimed at making linux something that can stand up to Solaris in the server room, at a zero cost. 16 way SMP, or CPU hotswapping are not things that benefit home users.
You are bang on in the first part. MS got to where it is by undercutting the competition, and being extremely developer friendly.
The big problem with getting mindshare in linux nowadays is that there is little to no support for modern languages. The younguns arent even taught C++ in school anymore, let alone c. This creates a huge barrier of entry for swarms of young geeks who would love to contribute, because as you said, the platform is very developer friendly. The move nowadays is to managed code. The enterprise has done it, and java has become an industry standard. The other desktops have done it, both with Obj-C on OSX and .net on windows. When linux desktops begin adopting modern languages, and some decent RAD tools (like VB), you will see a mass exodus of the guys currently doing all those freeware and shareware apps on windows.
I do find it kind of amusing that you talk about windows cost, when Microsoft’s strategy, is to sell Microsoft via OEM and are have tied the OS to one computer. People artificially believe that Windows is *free*, and to some extent it is discounted, both to OEM suppliers and through adware, and the price drop in hardware has only helped this situation.
I have never met a user *happy* with windows. Otherwise I wouldn’t be asked to fix; maintain etc etc their machines. They may be familiar with windows, power users(sic) may have learned to maintain windows, and by overcoming the limitations of a Microsoft platform are given a sense of control, but happy.
I cannot remember the last time I changed a config file in GNU, the only config files I actively remember changing is xorg.conf and that was a *long* time ago, and has been a disgrace of GNU for forever, and times are changing on that. Settings regardless of platform once set up *never* change, on any platform. The only thing I *ever* see changed is the Desktop background on Windows. To do any real work on windows you need msconfig, or regedit, tweakui or whatever the equivalents are called, but most don’t.
GNU is not for geeks, although I object to the term. GNU is for everybody, because the tools they need and want are available to them, applications arguably better than their counterparts OpenOffice and Firefox, and thats basically it. The only tricky part of GNU is downloading; burning; installing an iso which is beyond the reach of the vast number of users it would immediately benefit.
Whats strange is the fact that you say you promote diverse ecosystem(sic) and then promote a split between OS for usage, between home; office; serverspace. What I promote is Open Standards and interoperability. Why shouldn’t GNU fit in any of these environments the framework is already it up for everything, all but niche monopolistic applications are covered, and commercial gaming went to consoles a long time ago, and the framework for both of these is already in place.
The interesting thing about your comments on GNU not getting developers when survey after survey points out GNU being targeted mode for development. I believe the current figure is at 34%.
BTW Apple offer a cheap MAC
Obj-C is on GNU
Java is on GNU
VB is on GNU
RAD tools are on GNU
Hows Vista going for you?
Edited 2007-07-06 23:12
People in general are frustrated by how computers work, because they are too complex, not because they are too complex enough. As I said later in my post, the answer for joe average is a system like OSX, not a system like linux. The only people who want control over their os are geeks, who should be on linux anyways.
If you never edit a config file on linux, you should seriously consider getting a mac. It would appeal more to your style of using a computer.
I have nothing against open standards and interoperability, and would guess that if my imaginary scenario actually took place, you would see that happen an awful lot more. Apple is a commercial company in a non-monopolistic position, and they work quite a bit with open source. If Linux dominated the server room, it would make sense for MS to at least develop for it, if not create their own distribution to work better with their products. Free Software works on a more socialist academic model (research for the sake of research), and commercial software works on a typical capitalist model (market driven innovation). Just as in society, a mix of both is needed.
I’m sorry, I genuinely do not understand what you are trying to say. 34% of what? growth rate of developer mindshare? Please explain, and if possible provide links.
First off, MAC is either an acronym for Media Access Control address, which is a unique identifier in all NICs, or Manditory Access Control, which is a modern kernel security paradigm, depending on the context. Mac is a type of computer (sorry about being so pedantic, but this is a pet peeve of mine)
Secondly, the cheaper the Mac, the worse the markup. My girlfriend is looking at lowend laptops currently, and at least in this part of the world, Acer offers one for 600$ less then the lowest end MacBook, with comparible specs, other then the HD being 100gb bigger, and the screen being 2″ larger. Macs only get competitive at the very high end, and even then they are still more expensive, just by less of a margin.
This does not invalidate what I was talking about with bargin hunters.
You are indeed correct, and the majority of new apps we are seeing nowadays are not being done in C or C++, but in Python or C#.
I was talking about platform APIs, which get the most support, and end up with the strongest toolchain built around it. RAD on linux is a real relative term, sure, its more rapid then doing it in C, but its still not even comparable to VB.net with VS on windows.
Vista is going great. However, I wasnt talking about vista in this post.
But if you want to bring up Vista, it is a very strong supporter of my arguement. Instead of concentrating on what they do best, which is to provide the best business platform out there that will run on anything, MS has spent the last seven years attempting to re-create OSX. It is more expensive then any version before it, it only runs well on expensive hardware, and the primary benefit is an improved user experience. In my scenario, vista would still not have desktop compositing, it would be 80-90% managed code, and it would run on any hardware you threw at it.
If you are touting OSX as an alternative to GNU as apposed to Vista I can see why, but arguing one interface over another is a different matter altogether, and I would love you to justify it. GNU offers 3 main choices of desktop analogy to choose from, with different and weaknesses. Which one is more right/wrong than the others? For example out of the three main OS’s only GNU has a standard menu-entry specification, or that “home” directories are under home instead of somewhere obscure, please I would love to know what you are talking about.
Control is not just about being able to use a machine effectively. One of the examples is that Vista spys on its users, Parental control spys on their children. This is without talking about what DRM does.
You advocate(sic) monopolizing parts of the computer market, those who have lived through it. That space you reserve for Microsoft is the very reason why they moved into the home market. I remember what choice was like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh
“The Macintosh (commonly known as Mac) is a range of personal computers designed, developed, manufactured, and marketed by Apple Inc.”
shame on you. Apple of cheap Mac’s has *nothing* to do with markup. Apple is a content provider you are like your OS so last year.
….and C is on GNU
….and Python is on GNU.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/07/02/mswindows-share_1.html
if this a good enough reference for my *increase* in Linux being targeted by developers to 34%
Please lets stick with Modern OS’s
Edited 2007-07-07 05:52
People won’t switch because it’s better than Windows. People will switch because it’s cooler than Windows. They won’t switch because of the superior development frameworks. They’ll switch because of the nifty features and tight integration they allow. They won’t switch because they care about computer technology. They’ll switch because people who do have done cool things with it.
And there is nothing cooler than the Compiz/Beryl 3D desktop.
> I don’t see how any design choice to can lead to a single design that can capture a large percentage of the market.
Our competition does.
These articles are pleasant enough, but they fall into the trap so many articles of this kind do. This isn’t about appealing to some kind of universal good – simplicity, freedom, etc. Such arguments can never be resolved. It’s really about straightforward practicality and what lets people feel at ease with themselves.
In this family, a Mac is the ideal tool for Grandma. Grandma thinks so too. All her friends of the same age use Macs (they all have Macbooks). They swap hot tips and in the meantime get on doing the things they like to do, like email the grandchildren, plan bridge meetings and research the next foreign holiday.
Besides, a “very nice young man” came round and helped Granny choose her Mac, obtained and installed it for her, then gave her some lessons in how to use it. He was good at his job, too. The complete package, in fact, and well worth the extra money. Strangely, no one round here offers this service for Linux-based PCs
This whole matter boils down to horses for courses and the right tool for the job, imho. Any “advocate” who fails to grok that is just a dumb propagandist. I use Linux as my daily desktop because computers interest me and I love finding out how they work. Granny isn’t remotely interested in any of that. Besides, she thinks the Macbook looks great and style matters to her. Why should I inflict my prejudices on her?
I’ve recently had some experience with this so indulge a long post please
I tend to agree with the second article, though it understates the steepness of the learning curve.
After Norton crapped all over my grandfather’s computer and I had to fix it, I figured I’d let him try Linux in dual boot. He’s an intelligent guy and willing to learn stuff, and Linux is said to be perfectly fine for email and browsing and writing and the like and he’d read as much. I hooked him up with Xandros, and he bought a couple books about Linux and Xandros and went at it.
He got hung up early on until I could convince him that he couldn’t run common Windows anti spyware on Linux and didn’t need to. Whenever a new version of Firefox came out, he was antsy to install it himself instead of letting apt-get (Xandros networks) do it for him.
Email worked fine, though he needed it set up for him in kmail (he needed help at first displaying HTML mails, but appreciated that they weren’t displayed by default). Browsing was mostly good, and he quickly took paranoid measures to block cookies and scripts with Firefox extensions, and for a while I regularly got to explain why certain sites wouldn’t work (blocked scripts etc). He knows enough to get in trouble.
2 or 3 years later, he is still at it, but is still dual booting and is now looking at getting a Mac. What went wrong? (To be fair, he wanted to know if bootcamp would run Linux as well as Windows).
That one application. In his case, a geneological application that is Windows only. The promised Java version has been promised for years and is nowhere to be seen. Internet Explorer and banking sites. Neither are Linux’s fault, and both are getting better (java version of his app someday, banks getting used to Firefox etc) but the issues are there. He’ll have these issues with a Mac as well, but a VMware or Parallels would help and be easier than dual booting. He could use virtualization on Linux as well, but it’s a mite easier on Macs.
The main issue though was things “just working^tm”. I’ll use as an example plugging in his camera to load pictures into Digikam. It worked, but there were steps he had to take each time that I had to walk him through several times until he finally wrote them down (only to ask me again 6 months later). Each time he started Digikam he had to go to the add new camera dialog, remove his camera and auto scan and add it back again (the preexisting entry never worked). Digikam shouldn’t make the user select which camera model is plugged in, shouldn’t make users worry about which port it is connected to.
It was annoying. Worse, it was something I could easily do and figure out how to do but just wasn’t obvious to someone not raised with a computer. iPhoto won’t be giving him problems like that.
If he uses a Mac, I’ll be getting calls for help implementing PC Magazine’s latest paranoid security measure on his Mac (again, he knows enough to get in trouble) but I really doubt I’ll be helping him get iPhoto to recognize his camera.
For him, Linux usability wasn’t entirely about paring down toolbars (though some work would help. Larger icons with text underneath would go a long way towards him actually clicking on them). Better yet would be polish so he doesn’t have to use them as often (add camera dialog in Digikam).
It was just fine for email and browsing (minus certain sites) but probably more people than one might guess at first rely on “that one app” for some grandfatherly thing we’d never think of. Obvious steps to be taken to hook up some hardware just aren’t obvious to many of the elderly.
In the end, it didn’t do worse for him than Windows did. Windows stopped booting in February after one particular Windows Update and had to be reinstalled only to have the update kill it again (a second reinstall and waiting for a later update finally worked). There were malware issues etc. He spent most of his computing time in Xandros. But after all that, his odyssey continues with OS X next up in the search for something that lets him work without fiddling.
The frustrating thing for me is that there are no easy answers to distill from this. Making Linux usable isn’t as simple as paring down toolbars and features or creating a dedicated file browsing app. It involves sending bug reports to various unrelated projects to deal with quirks and oddities that wouldn’t faze me at all, and hoping those bug reports get acted on. It involves more cross platform awareness, or geeks interested in replicating the functionality of many small apps (while retaining the ability to work with people who still use the original app).
Windows failed him too of course. It’s intensely maddening. Computers just do too much and can break in too many ways. A pared down email and browsing and letter writing machine sounds great, but “that one app,” which is different for everyone make that hard to realize. I just wish more apps and websites were cross platform so that the question of on which platforms an app will run wasn’t an issue; it would be a lot easier to pick out which OS has the best usability without having to worry about random specialized apps.
It’s just frustrating to me how computers have made themselves indispensable to so many people and yet so many people just can’t handle them
>It’s just frustrating to me how computers have made themselves indispensable to so many people and yet so many people just can’t handle them
People can’t just handle a car, they have to learn it. Computer are easier to handle than 20 years before, but people aren’t able anymore to handle some learning effort.
Allways nice to read such a anecdote. I experienced one myself not so long ago. A couple of friends of mine asked me if i was prepared to circumvent the activation meachanism of XP. Instead i advised them to install an original OS. Just for the fun of it since they agreed that any non original (tampered with) OS isn’t exactly what you would call a safe bet to depend upon, i installed PClinuxOS. Both friends (haven’t really used pc’s at all) gave linux a go. After a week or so they bought an OEM XP but the friends wife insisted on having linux on the PC as well so i configured a dual-boot. Problem solved, and btw both are still happy.
>Advocating Linux
First it’s just evangelism, later it’s maybe SPAM. First rule, don’t lie. If you wan’t to avoid frustrated users, don’t hype. Push it instead with facts not fiction …
—
>everything should be as simple as it is
And this assumption is crap. Sorry but we’re talking about one of the most complex machines out there. So as easy as driving a car? You have to learn it first. As easy to read a book? You have to learn it first. And so one, you cannot use a thing without learning first. And there are a lot of things out there which are less complex but aren’t easy to understand. It’s the laziness, common nowadays and this hype who promises a false easiness.
Sorry, but I’ve been hearing this analogy way too often of late, and *it’s* crap. When was the last time you manually adjusted your carburetor? Manually set the choke? Retarded the spark timing? Heck, how many people these days use a clutch with a manual transmission?
Cars are in fact a great example of the continuing trend in simplifying and automating complex systems. If you tried to insist that these settings should be left exposed for the average driver, because they give the driver more ‘control’, the best response you could probably expect is someone laughing in your face.
More applications, better hardware support, and a distribution which actually *TESTS* and *FIXES* bugs when they’re found by beta testers rather than pushing them ‘upstream’ – basically fobbing the responsibility off onto someone else.
People here think that there is some sort of magical formula or voodoo involved, and once that secret has been cracked, all of Linux’s dreams will come true. The simple fact it is, it is the most basic of issues that need to be corrected for Linux to make it onto mainstream desktops. Oh, and btw, Linux needn’t be the *only* alternative, why not an easy to use OpenSolaris distribution focused on the end user, how PC-BSD? there is no ‘one size fits all’.
Here I am, I’ve got an HP laptop, if I were to install Linux, but webcam isn’t supported out of the box, the driver that is of a seperate compile is limited at best, there is no video capabilities in Pidgin, my card reader isn’t supported, my HP digital camera isn’t supported (either PTP or USB Storage), my MiniDisc isn’t supported etc. etc.
I’m sorry, but why should I (or anyone) give up Windows, and all the compatibility and massive selection of off the shelf applications just to get the ‘feel good’ factor of sticking it to the man – I sure a heck don’t orientate my life around computers to the point that I see every choice made as some sort of struggle between good and evil in the IT industry that some people here see it as.
Edited 2007-07-06 13:07
More applications, better hardware support, and a distribution which actually *TESTS* and *FIXES* bugs when they’re found by beta testers rather than pushing them ‘upstream’ – basically fobbing the responsibility off onto someone else.
Bugs are pushed upstream for a good reason, so that everyone can have the fix not just users of one distro. Redhat used to do things like that and people hated them for that.
my card reader isn’t supported
What kind of card reader do you have that isn’t supported? The USB mass storage driver takes care of that for me.
my HP digital camera isn’t supported (either PTP or USB Storage)
That’s odd because again the USB mass storage driver handles cameras that act as USB storage devices and PTP is supported under Linux. I have used both to transfer pics to my computer with F-Spot.
I’m sorry, but why should I (or anyone) give up Windows, and all the compatibility and massive selection of off the shelf applications just to get the ‘feel good’ factor of sticking it to the man – I sure a heck don’t orientate my life around computers to the point that I see every choice made as some sort of struggle between good and evil in the IT industry that some people here see it as.
That’s completely fine. Do what you want but quit trolling. Not everyone chooses Linux in some good vs evil struggle. Some just don’t like Windows, or prefer a Unix-like environment, or prefer choice and open standards.
Edited 2007-07-06 14:28
The problem is that they’re shipping products with known bugs – not just minor, but *BIG* bugs. Take Ubuntu, for example, which shipped a broken implementation (via their CODEC buddby) which corrupts files encoded by FAAC when applying tags to files.
Sure, if it is a *huge* bug, then sure, but there are a small number of bugs which really destroys a first time users experience. As they say, its the small things.
Its a Ricoh card reader which is part of the laptop.
Mine is a HP M307; if I put in my SD Card, it doesn’t work, pull it out, and it works ok; this problem doesn’t appear on Windows Vista – the SD Card + built in 16MB appear as one ‘storage pool’.
I’m not trolling – stop using terms which you know jack-squat about; you’re the same sort of person who screams ‘FUD! FUD! TEH FUD!” without having a damn clue about its origin let alone its definition.
The issue is, if you want people to use your operating system of choice (assuming you want that – I don’t know. I assume since you replied this forum, you want to ‘convert’ people) then you need to address the deficiencies; To simply ignore those deficiences, you’re saying that its ‘all those people’ who have the problem, rather than accepting problems ned resolving.
ts a Ricoh card reader which is part of the laptop.
Did you try `modprobe tifm_sd`?
Mine is a HP M307; if I put in my SD Card, it doesn’t work, pull it out, and it works ok; this problem doesn’t appear on Windows Vista – the SD Card + built in 16MB appear as one ‘storage pool’.
That is pretty odd considering that model supports both PTP and USB storage on Linux.
I’m not trolling – stop using terms which you know jack-squat about; you’re the same sort of person who screams ‘FUD! FUD! TEH FUD!” without having a damn clue about its origin let alone its definition.
From Wikipedia:
A troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.
Your comments:
…why should I (or anyone) give up Windows, and all the compatibility and massive selection of off the shelf applications just to get the ‘feel good’ factor of sticking it to the man – I sure a heck don’t orientate my life around computers to the point that I see every choice made as some sort of struggle between good and evil in the IT industry that some people here see it as.
You’re the only one in this discussion talking about good and evil in terms of software. No one else is attempting to turn this discussion into a moral issue. I would call that inflammatory not to mention:
stop using terms which you know jack-squat about; you’re the same sort of person who screams ‘FUD! FUD! TEH FUD!” without having a damn clue about its origin let alone its definition.
You do spread FUD. You make your arguments based on what you perceive is some kind of religious war while you either fail to notice, or just flat ignore the many people on this site who use Linux and other free operating systems for reasons other than religion. You do this to discredit Linux. That seems pretty clear cut to me.
Hmm.. Your suggestion is how it is done by Linux From Scratch, Debian, gentoo, Fedora, Mandriva, Arch Linux, Ark Linux, *Ubuntu and who knows else.
Bugs are usually found at distributionlevel, fixed at distribution level and then sent upstream giving upstream more than one solution to choose from for a given problem.
Next time just by a computer with Linux installed. I’m sorry, but if you bought it with Windows, you bought it FOR Windows. Why would HP care about writing Linux driver for your hardware if you were going to use Windows in the first place?
You buy it with Windows, it’s your choice. If now you want to use Linux, you know what to buy next time.
I don’t want Linux – I am simply saying that if you want people with my sort of hardware setup to use Linux, then you need to address the hardware support and software support deficiences.
Simply sitting in the corner, abusing end users with posts on this forum isn’t going to achieve your objective; you need to sit down with end users and talk, find out what is missing, then do something about it.
This is where I stand with (IIRC) ESR who said that (surprise, after he did a business degree – reality coming in the form of education I guess) that Linux vendors need to start paying for technology to bridge the gap; if support for a device requires the payment to the vendor, then they should do it.
The problem is there are people here would would rather scream and yell at me, calling me a troll, than sitting down and knuckling out a solution for end users.
@kaiwai “I don’t want Linux” you lost all credibility with that.
Your heavily off-topic, a topic that is difficult, and I have *no* real answer to thats why I respond to what I see as lies spread by Vista users.
In seriousness if you have a problem, in a *community* based distribution, as opposed to support you have *paid* for, which is available from Ubuntu as well btw. I expect to see forum posts; bug reports from you before you given any credibility.
The reason why you accused when something doesn’t work right of “making it up” is because everything pretty much works on GNU. Is it perfect; *NO* are there bugs; regressions; unsupported hardware…absolutely. Until quite recently it had glaring holes in wi-fi and graphics card support, and the solutions currently are far from perfect or for everyone, and this situation will not change any time soon, but software can never be perfect, but GNU is not static unlike Vista 2006 it continues to evolve.
I actually buy my hardware to fit my OS regardless of platform. The main difference between Hardware that works on GNU as opposed to a Microsoft platform is the level of trust is greater. Hardware that worked well under XP will not always work under 2006 Vista, or at all and definitely not as well. We can see that Microsoft with DirectX 10 cards has made expensive graphics cards useless for gamers while OpenGL 2.0 and OpenGL 3.0 are out this year, yet we see 5 year old games DirectX 10 only. Drivers on the Microsoft platform are write once walk away, which only works as long as the platform stays static as we have seen with Vista it doesn’t, but it also means that hardware becomes *obsolete* as standards change, look at the standards in the wi-fi world now, people suggest buying *like with like* becuase its so bad on the Microsoft platform.
but the reality is hardware support is excellent under Linux, and continues to improve. In fact unlike static platforms like that of 2006 Vista you hardware improves all the time; Linux 2.6.22 is out this week and the chances are not only will your hardware still work. It will work better.
Edited 2007-07-07 02:09
You may not, but given the intensity for abuse by people here, one would assume that they wanted me to move – to ‘see the light’ – akin to the verbal abuse Christian fundamentalists give gays and lesbians in a hope of changing them.
You are right, there are lies – hence the reason I said in my first post that if I was running Windows XP, I probably wouldn’t go out and upgrade to Windows Vista using a retail package. I’m happy to run Windows Vista, because it came with my machine, if all I had was Windows XP, then I’d be still happy.
Hence the reason I’ve maintained that there currentlyisn’t enough incentives for people to upgrade to Windows Vista – until SP1 is released, hardware support improves (quality and quantity) and softare that takes advantage of Windows technologies – its going to be a long road ahead for Microsoft.
Btw, this isn’t off topic – it all relates back to advocacy, which is what the whole article is about. Things don’t occur in a vacuum.
I am happy to pay for distributions – I have bought in the past, SLED 10, Red Hat Enterprise, Caldera Linux, etc. So yes, I have ‘paid by dues’ – its time that these vendors started usign those ‘dues’ to support my hardware.
Sony, for example, is more than happy to licence ATRAC and MiniDisc specifications (I’ve contacted them in the past in regards to getting access) – its vcendors who refuse to make those contacts.
I’m not saying that there aren’t improvements; what I am saying is that to bash Windows without acknowleding its strengths is ignorance at best.
You
realise you are feeding the trolls, right? 😉
@kaiwai “You may not, but given the intensity for abuse by people here, one would assume that they wanted me to move – to ‘see the light’ – akin to the verbal abuse Christian fundamentalists give gays and lesbians in a hope of changing them. ”
Thats a little sick
How is it sick – having been on the end of the the verbal abuse given out to me for being gay, I’d say the parallels are pretty clear.
Dare to question to demand answers from the opposing side, and expect more screaming and abuse being hurled.
Just to reply to your question “why should I (or anyone) give up Windows”:
Who wants you to give up Windows? You decided you wanted Windows, you paid for it, who would want you to change? Nobody is going to Redmond and asking them to use Linux. They use a system they like, we don’t care, it’s their choice. You want to use MS-DOS? Fine by me
No I’m doing it to leave my g’ma with much more stable and reliable system and with ability to access internet more safely.
I totally empathize with that sentiment. But I actually empathize with Richard Stallman and the FSF even more. He and they have been pouring their souls into bringing a free software system to fruition for over 20 years and along comes Linus, writes the final piece and gets to name the whole system after himself.
“…along comes Linus, writes the final piece and gets to name the whole system after himself.”
That’s in many ways true and ok. But you didn’t quote the whole paragraph, and the point in the article had nothing to do with technically and historically correct OS terminology in itself but with advocating Linux to newbies while using easy to understand common language.
What ever the historical reasons and what ever the correctness of them may be, Linux in common language often does refer to both the kernel and the operating system. Ordinary people know the word Linux and usually just happen to understand that it refers to an alternative operating system that is not MS Windows nor Macintosh. If they are interested in trying the new system and ask for advice, it may not be that good policy to first and immediately try to convert them to become card carrying members of the GNU movement…
If they find the new operating system (what ever its correct name…?) attractive, easy enough, and are not turned off by arrogant and aggressive behaviour from expert users but get good newbie-oriented advice and help instead, maybe they do become more interested in history and details too, later, maybe even become GNU supporters themselves too – one day. But Linux newbies and ordinary users do not need to get a profound understanding and a strict opinion about such gory details like naming fights between Linux and GNU/Linux supporters, especially when they are still newbies, they probably feel that they have much better use for their time.
Edited 2007-07-06 14:23
But Linux newbies and ordinary users do not need to get a profound understanding and a strict opinion about such gory details like naming fights between Linux and GNU/Linux supporters, especially when they are still newbies, they probably feel that they have much better use for their time.
True, but I explained the issue in a single sentence above. That’s not gory.
It’s too bad that these articles show a black-and-white view of the world where computers either have to be learnt for years, or are dumbed-down to the point to be useless.
The truth couldn’t be farther away. There are many aspects of a computer system (hardware, OS, applications) that can be made simple, yet powerful. Just some examples:
– Hardware support. If your hardware works instantly without having to install drivers, your system is more simple, yet as powerful as before. This also includes things like keyboard layout, which nobody cared to implement realiably on PCs since their creation.
– Sensible defaults. As long as you can change them, sensible defaults make life easier for everyone. Result: less complexity for the beginner, yet as powerful as before.
– Standards. Standards make separate components work together without much hassle. This includes network protocol standards, file formats, file system layout, … If standards are implemented properly, users don’t *have* to look into the internals, but can do if they want.
The good thing in Linux-based operating systems is the flexibility of it. The OS can be tweaked to suit the needs of astronauts and scientists at a space station, or the system can be dumbed down (when necessary) to suit the needs of very small kids at a kindergarten. What is even better, there are already various customized Linux distributions, with customized desktop environments, window managers and other software to suit all sorts of different users and environments from scientific and artistic needs to schools, firewalls, heavy duty server use, clusters etc.
Edited 2007-07-06 14:39
The OS can be tweaked to suit the needs of astronauts and scientists at a space station, or the system can be dumbed down (when necessary) to suit the needs of very small kids at a kindergarten.
Yes and in addition linux or OSS in generall is geared towards combining the efforts of people all around the world into projects with a specific goal in mind.
Also it’s easy to fill a gap and start working on it with a certain OSS project. And you will likely notice people from different back grounds interested in your project and who are by the very nature of OSS able to support with whatever activity such as documentation, development, etc.
I so remember what it was like when the linux community was full of arrogant, aloof geeks. We teased our windows friends about not being smart enough to use a real mans operating system, but like the author said, you only really convert a non-techie once before you realize just what you are getting yourself into.
Nowadays the community is flooded with all kinds of evangelistic children who can only really use the OS with a ton of hand holding, but are leading the way in converting the rest of the masses. I am more oldschool. I don’t WANT the masses, especially when getting them basically means turning linux into windows.
Anyways, sorry for the huge rant. If this turns into a flame war I apologize now, I really wasnt trying to troll.
I don’t WANT the masses, especially when getting them basically means turning linux into windows.
Word. +1.
We went through the same thing with OS/2 15 years ago. Once it became a popular alternative, we had all kinds of fanbois calling themselves “Team OS/2ers” and trying to convert everyone to the platform.
No insult intended to those Team OS/2 folks who did so much to legitimately help people and constructively advocate the platform, but there’s a big difference between being an enthusiastic advocate and declaring something to be the ONE TRUE SOLUTION.
Experience teaches almost everyone that there *is* no “one true solution”. 🙂 It just takes some people a little longer to figure that one out… 🙁
I’ve personally never liked segregational terms for anything. Linux has come a long way, and I hope that its usability continues to improve so that it may serve everyones needs.
The claim that Linux is for everyone just keeps failing and failing
So stop bringing it up. If you tell that to a lot of people, many of them will be interested, but Linux will fail to meet their expectations. Once that is done, it is very difficult to erase the bad impression they have got. Many people tell me, when I start telling them about Linux, that they’ve tried it before, because someone had told them that it would be a great replacement for Windows and is just as easy, but they have found it very hard instead, and hence quit it. Some people even recoil any time I say the word “Linux”. And that is because they have experienced violence from Linux enthusiasts. Violence – because they had been told that they should use Linux, and if they wouldn’t, they would be treated as ignorant or unintelligent. How was that supposed to work?
Couldn’t agree more. But some hardcore Linux zealots don’t understand that.
Indeed. They know that they are “right,” so hyperbole is justified to wrangle in unsuspecting users. And they aren’t right, and they do lie, so they alienate those users.
Maybe they’re plants doing it on purpose…
I do put people on Linux, and do suggest it. However there is a difference between doing that, and advocacy. Advocacy, the old MacEvangelism for instance, and equally Linux advocacy, is mistaken and counter productive.
There are people whose issues are solved best by Linux, and if you put it in for them, they will be perfectly happy and productive. Roughly speaking they are those who use their computer as an appliance, and for whom money is a real issue. There are lots of people like this in the charitable sector. Quite a lot of older people. Contrary to what some say in the thread above, there is no learning or ease of use problem as long as the requirements are limited and stable, and thought through.
For cameras, for instance, I always suggest a card reader. So much simpler, and you can take a spare with you and never run out of ‘film’.
We should get ourselves out of the business of trying to increase Linux usage, and get ourselves exclusively into the business of giving people solutions to their problems. The last thing anyone wants is people running around talking about Linux the way the Mac fanatics do about Apple. Its boring and a total turn-off.
I think personally, Mac users get a hard time, and I’m not sure why. I can understand why individuals would “Love” their Mac, Apple used to be different and still are. They had features that are only appeared on Microsoft last year, but for years Apples machines have looked different. I routinely go in the apple store and have a look around, and the machines look lovely.
You don’t see that many Mac users here apart from fake ones who promote Vista, and use it as subterfuge. The only time it is ever mentioned really is in respect to defending Vista’s draconian DRM, or pretending its *NIX.
To be fair I only see anti-mac users, but thats not really on here, but thats nothing to do with the hardware. I think its in part due to it being a popular minority, and the image that is projects which is either appealing/unappealing depending on who you are.
But to do with the topic, Apple are seen as successful, produce good/attractive hardware, at all price ranges; have support of media companies; have *those* adobe products; are available in the highsteet; have next to no active malware; is well known, with the exception of *commercial gaming* I cannot think of a reason why you wouldn’t buy one over 2006 Vista OEM, hell they even have brick and mortar stores, and the ipod effect, Microssoft Office and it only dents Microsoft’s Market share.
The only thing that Gnu has that Apple doesn’t is the ability to run on commodity hardware; developers; GPL.
Edited 2007-07-07 14:11
1) Why are there ten thousand different distros…what should I use!? What makes them different!!?? …and why does the linux gurus get angry at me for asking that?
2)Why do these linux gurus get angry at me for asking if Linux has similar feature what I used while using my old OS? (read windows)
3) Why every time I ask about linux I get long lecture of some strange religion called church of GNU? …I just wanna know about Linux!
4) Why can’t things “just work” and why does the linux gurus get angry at me for asking that.
5) Why is sharing files between linux and windows made so complicated? ..and why does Samba gurus get angry at me for asking that??
6) Why is installing drivers made so darn hard??
After this the novice usually gets discouraged and reinstalls windows.
the “US vs THEM” mentality must go before linux can gain ground as desktop OS…windows will always be there wether we wanted it or not and desktop linux will always be compared to windows and even mac osx…and because of that, linux needs to stop appealing to the power users that hard and come closer to that Billy Joel who wants a usable system without need to know how to compile drivers by hand or set up xorg.conf manually.
I’m going to call you a liar. It saves time, nobody will preach or get angry at you for asking a question. The reason why I know this is I can go to to any *forum* on the net and there are Billions of posts from GNU users wanting help or advise.
I have this http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html *bookmarked* because I think in todays modern world its a *life* skill this has *nothing* to do particularly between one platform and another. You clearly do not have this life skill becuase you think you are *owed* answers, this is not the case when people give up their time for free. I would normally suggest that you get paid advise offered by a variety of Distributions, but becuase I think its so important to develop this skill. I actually suggest pretty strongly than you concentrate in developing this.
I actually think you are ingenious in you post, the reference to “installing drivers” and “compile drivers” smack of lying. Simply becuase the kernel comes with *all* the drivers *precompiled* which implies you haven’t even tried it.
BTW “church of GNU” and “US vs THEM” is emotive language you should perhaps avoid.