Sun Microsystems Inc. is adding another Linux piece to its overall product line, but don’t confuse that with a strong endorsement for the open-source operating system. “We don’t offer Linux computers; we offer solutions,” said Scott McNealy, Sun’s chairman, president and CEO, in an interview following the announcement of Sun’s desktop initiative, Project Mad Hatter, at the Sun Network conference here last week. Read the article at eWeek.
Sun to Keep Linux Out of the High End Market
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
solutions ? like an practical unusable GNOME 2 desktop for your well paying customers ? err. enterprise customers ?
no offense but i think you SUN people are going the wrong way with GNOME as default solution for customers. your luck is that your customers are stupid enough to not understand the back of GNOME otherwise they would make a contract with a more reliable company.
Sugeon General states not shooting ones self in the foot is a great idea.
I have heard rumours that Sun is not continueing the contract for GNOME support anyways. They signed a 5 year contract to support GNOME and to replace their CDE with it. But internally I heard that they don’t continue it and probably stick back to CDE which they still support for their Customers.
…never really liked Gnome. Me neither (I am a Solaris sys engneer-developer), and I wished Sun chose KDE, if they really had to chose an alternative to CDE. But, in all honesty, for my purposes, CDE was and still is enough. I even use it for multimedia – I listen to my MP3 files and CDs on a Blade 100, for example.
Let me just post a comment from comp.unix.solaris, which I really liked:
> > Since your suggesting that nobody in Sun cares anything about
> > the desktop anymore then why are they moving to Gnome on
> > Solaris? (Which in itself is a bad idea.)
>
> Why is that a bad idea?
Because Gnome belongs where it should be – out in the
garden where the dog can piss on it.
I say, let’s just wait and see. One thing is sure: IBM switching to Linux may very well frighten and alienate part of their current AIX customer base. Sun should, by all means, stick to Solaris, which is a damn fine OS for mission critical, heavy duty applications. Linux is not yet there http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0114.kernel.html
And I think it never will be. Development model way too fscked up, beyond repair, I’d say.
I agree! Sun made a big mistake by having signed contract with GNOME but well as beeing a human is natural, humans tend to make mistakes. I think it was not the first big mistake Sun made. On the longer run it would have been cheaper to:
a) buy up Trolltech.
b) pay Trolltech a license of commercial closed apps.
We all know that GNOME started one year after KDE but looking at the current GNOME 2.0.2 it looks like it is 5 years behind KDE development now. The Developers are telling their users that it is not all about competition. But the user sees things differently. They want a working Desktop today – which GNOME is not.
Oh, please, Gnome1.4 was already *alot* better than KDE3, in speed, and in quality of the applications. KDE3 looks pretty, but you can’t do anything with it.. (and after spending hours to have a decent KDE configuration, I must say that Gnome1.4 is also alot easier to use.)
Gnome2 improves on speed, the quality of the applications will improve even more, and now they dramatically improve the usability by having a *decent* human interface guide, accesibility features integrated in the API level, actually realizing that you should have decent defaults, that having lots of unnecessary options are bad, and that to create something usable you shouldn’t blindly copy-cat Windows.
James, Do you actually belive what you say ? Gnome 1.4 was already “alot” better than KDE3 specially in Speed ? Like Nautilus needed 80 seconds to show it’s first Screen ?
KDE does have a nice human interface guide too so where is the deal ?
Personally i don’t have anything against Windows. Windows is indeed a cool System. I like using it. It feels complete, integrated, fine, cool. I besides others have no problems using a Windows copy on Linux. KDE fills up that GAP completely.
Now GNOME is blindly copy-cat MAC-OS-X so where is the deal ? Can you please come up with serious comments ?
Can you come up with decent arguments? You need to preload everything to make KDE anywhere near speedy. KDE doesn’t have a nice human interface guide. It barely has an excuse for a guide that has something to do with an interface..
And by the way, if you want a copy of windows on linux, download VMWare, or just boot back into windows..
I don’t see your point ? What do you want to achieve with your senseless replies as if everyone else who reads your shit would ever go and belive your stuff. There is no need to have much Brain to understand and realize that KDE is far ahead of GNOME. KDE is GNOME done correctly.
By the way if you want a MAC-OS like system then why not simply booting in your Titanium ?
> KDE doesn’t have a nice human interface guide. It barely
> has an excuse for a guide that has something to do with
> an interface..
Please post your critique to [email protected] and help to make the guide better. (I personally think you haven’t read it at all, I mean all those details and points which you made …)
Thanks.
“solutions ? like an practical unusable GNOME 2 desktop for your well paying customers ? err. enterprise customers ?
no offense but i think you SUN people are going the wrong way with GNOME as default solution for customers. your luck is that your customers are stupid enough to not understand the back of GNOME otherwise they would make a contract with a more reliable company. [bla bla bla]”
I don’t intend to offend anyone, but maybe this guy could just stop his endless trolling ? Or perhaps be moderated ? It’s kind of boring to read 10x the same clueless message.
Tinours: Please forgive me for having a different opinion than you. I am such a stupid asshole.
Please apologize to everyone offended by this. Sun is a cool company and doing a nice job on GNOME specially the usability stuff added from the same people that worked on CDE
But hey, I am interested where you read the same stuff the other 9 times.
I have tried both KDE 3 and Gnome 2…. and I enjoy using Gnome 2 ALOT more…..sept most distros gear towards KDE so using apps for a newby is ridiculously hard(not all apps, but a whole lot of them, in most KDE-geared distros i’ve tried that include Gnome include it as an afterthought…it is just thrown in there) I don’t understand why all you ppl are saying “KDE is better” when everyone that lives near me and has seen me running Gnome and then KDE all say that Gnome was better…. of course the don’t know that these two are different. pfff most think they are skins like on windows.
Just thought I’d let some of you people know what REAL Linux newbies liked best!(yes, most of my friends are computer-literate on windows)
@kevin: This is a no argumentation of yours. Newbies are doing easier with Windows-like Applications. With a consistent UI and so on. GNOME does not even support Applications that look at least half way similar to Windows derivates. Please don’t mix Foolish EYE-Candy over usability. Using nice ICONS or nice BACKGROUND pictures is only shading the real problems that GNOME has to deal with.
People want to click on an Icon and they want to listen to MP3 music.
People want to click on an Icon and want to view a movie.
People are used to INTERNETEXPLORER and FILEEXPLORER which Konqueror comes closest of them all.
People want a nice printing UI where they simply click and print.
All stuff that GNOME is missing. But please, let’s assume that GNOME is that good, then where are the Apps ?, where are the people that program these Apps ? how comes i see more intelligent Apps beeing written for KDE than for GNOME ? I mean I don’t want yet another MP3 or OGG player I am talking for serious stuff.
@kevin; If you think there is stuff missing for KDE like missing EyeCandy or missing usability then you may wish to address that stuff to bugs.kde.org or write to one of their Mailinglists. I think they are happy to listen to your wishes.
I think sun made the right decision to support gnome, it’s a far nicer desktop – and they have done great work with gnome 2.
(by the way has anyone else noticed that all the anti-gnome posts are by the same guy – does kde pay him or something)
Therefore, you must be fairly stupid, which explains why you think Sun made the right decision to support Gnome.
@mario: These GNOME people are really stupid and offensive and far away of beeing logical. They open their mouths and shout some silly shit out that doesn’t make much sense. Even limited ones realize that KDE is the leading Desktop and that GNOME is wasting their time with re-inventing the wheel. They would do much better supporting KDE and make it better by contributing to it instead of bashing it.
Sun really doesn’t have a clue when it comes to Linux, no matter what desktop they use. They seem to be going at it half assed by not offering top to bottom solutions across their product line.
Stof: solutions ? like an practical unusable GNOME 2 desktop for your well paying customers ? err. enterprise customers ?
As a KDE user, I don’t really understand what you fucking problem with GNOME. It is good enough for the enterprise market. Yeah, KDE is better is so many ways, but a GNOME user would also say otherwise.
Guess what? IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT DESKTOP THEY CHOOSE! Nobody of their target market would bitch around saying, “It comes with GNOME, not KDE, don’t want to use it”.
Stof: have heard rumours that Sun is not continueing the contract for GNOME support anyways.
I heard rumours that theKompany would be making GTK+ apps. Is there any backing behind it? No.
mario: …never really liked Gnome. Me neither (I am a Solaris sys engneer-developer)
I noticed most Solaris users don’t like GNOME 1, and never tried GNOME 2 (which, BTW, is butt ugly accroading to Eugenia, not sure though).
mario: And I think it never will be. Development model way too fscked up, beyond repair, I’d say.
I would say otherwise. 6 years ago, we would hear that Linux would never be a good webserver, now it is. Maybe it is not ready *now*, but it would be.
Besides, on IBM decission, they say it is done because their customers demand it. If they demand it, they are better off suplying it.
James: Gnome2 improves on speed, the quality of the applications will improve even more, and now they dramatically improve the usability by having a *decent* human interface guide
You are another one. You are exactly the same as Stof, except on your preferences on the desktop.
Anyway, try reading this: http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/basics/i…
Stof: Now GNOME is blindly copy-cat MAC-OS-X so where is the deal ? Can you please come up with serious comments ?
Uhmmm, GNOME copies more from Windows than from Mac OS X.
Stof: @kevin: This is a no argumentation of yours. Newbies are doing easier with Windows-like Applications. With a consistent UI and so on.
Not exactly true. Most Windows users DON’T get Windows’ UI. (I have experience witht that, LOTS of it). Making a clone of Windows is counter-productive. People want reasons to move to Linux, and cloning Windows removes one reason.
People coming to Linux want to be *more* productive, not have the same amount of productivity. That’s what Apple realize (but unfortunately don’t know what’s the price range people want).
Frankly, from your post, you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and paint a picture that GNOME can never be successful just because GNOME 2 is new, and mostly appless. GNOME 2.x apps is coming, yeah slowly. But did KDE 2 apps came instantly?
Besides, you can run GNOME apps on KDE and vice versa, I choose KDE even though currently I am using a lot of GTK+ apps (mostly GIMP).
@Ryan as I replied in the other thread I am sick of your bullshit. You reply much but you lose context or your replies are simply full of fucking lies. What you write is absolutely Trash.
If you did not understand, I think you’re argument that GNOME isn’t good for newbies is ludicrous! I am a newby my friends only see linux whilst at my house, and my mom hasn’t used a computer since Tandy disapeared from the computing world. All of these people think GNOME looks and feels(while using linux) alot better than KDE.
Don’t act like you know what a newby wants, you aren’t a newby.
scuse me, my mom just thinks it is alot more apealing than KDE, but really it matters not which desktop you choose.
Right now if she actually tried to use it instead of just looking at it she would prefer KDE. That may change in the future with improvement now that GTK2 is in place.
For now don’t confuse a newbie previewing (screen shot style) and a newbie actually using it.
I’m amazed how the same battle managed to jump from on post to the nexted. Also it’s nice to be something differant. I think i need to get something with Gnome and KDE installed so I can form an oppinion. Right now all i can say is by just looking at the two armys sides, I’d take Gnome
What would it cost Sun to offer Linux on their hardware? I’m not expecting a comprehensive service contract, just some assurance that I’d be able to run Linux on a Sun box without having to immerse myself in a new how-to purgatory and three weeks of sifting through usenet archives. It’s stupid of them to say their customers aren’t interested in running Linux when they’re in desperate need of customers. If I buy an Opt-er-out or Dual Itanium running Linux from HP or perhaps an SGI solution it will be at Sun’s expense. Hmph.
I’ve been a regular (though silent) OSNews reader for a long time now. Besides good articles or interesting reviews posted here, I’ve always liked the (more-often-than-not) good quality of comments submitted by people frequenting this site (Adam Scheinberg’s or rajan r’s sensible, informative, matter-of-fact and UNBIASED posts being, among others, a good case in point). In my opinion, it is this quality that contributes to OSNews being what it is – a good read for anyone who is interested in IT issues and doesn’t really want to see any sort of partisan attitudes when speaking about technology.
So I am really disgusted at today’s postings by a certain Stof trying to make OSNews into some sort of a GNOME-KDE battleground. Geez, the guy has managed to foul two threads with his furiously fired away, cantankerous, and often insulting posts that are mostly off-topic, and so repetitive as to be nauseous. Really, looking back I think this is the first time we have a discussion here degenerating into a Slashdot-style zealotry.
Therefore my humble request. Eugenia, is it possible please to mod down posts like those in the future? They bring nothing to the debate, and, accounting for roughly 1/3 of all postings made, are a simple waste of time.
I’ve seen people moded down on OSNews, and it seems to me that this guy has easily violated points 1-7 of your comment submission terms (that is, pretty much all of it :-))
Sorry for the rant.
All the best to the OSNews team (keep up the excellent work!) and the rest of OSNews readers.
Peace,
Zbyszek Sidorkiewicz
P.S.
Stoff – it is nothing personal, so I do hope no offence is taken. It is the first time I’ve seen you posting on OSNews, so maybe it is just the matter of you being a newcomer to this site and not knowing its “spirit/character”.
OMG! Not again, KDE vs Gnome and my desktop is better than your desktop. Btw, KDE and Gnome is better than M$ Windoze.
Stof: @Ryan as I replied in the other thread I am sick of your bullshit. You reply much but you lose context or your replies are simply full of fucking lies. What you write is absolutely Trash.
From what I see here is that YOU are the one bullshiting. You haven’t made one claim against GNOME that is true and proven. So who’s the fucking liar? Most people in this forum say it is you.
Now, a little background. The desktop I used most in my whole entire life (even pre-Linux) is KDE. My first desktop whom I extensively used is KDE 1.x. I skiped 2.0, and went straight to 2.1. And then to 2.2. And now, 3.0. I also have a installation of KDE 3.1 Beta, and filled many bug reports.
I’m learning how to program in C++, and when I’m good enough to program, I would start contributing to KDE because I WANT to. The only program (or rather series of programs that I ended up deleting and starting all over again) is made in Python using Qt.
Having said all that, I have every reason to take a similar stand as you. In fact, during the time GNOME 2 was released, I did. Well, I had a bad time with one of the betas, and keep on bitching about GNOME 2, even though the final release fixed all my quips about it. Ask Spark, or linux_baby if you don’t believe.
So, you prefer KDE, big deal. It is what they call “personal preferences”. I like Thai food, my older bro hates it – a case of personal perferences.
Besides, why you call me ryan is beyond me (there is another regular here name ryan).
Zbyszek Sidorkiewicz: (Adam Scheinberg’s or rajan r’s sensible, informative, matter-of-fact and UNBIASED posts being, among others, a good case in point).
Thanks. (Though I hardly agree with Adam’s thoughts, they are unbiased as mine).
Yeah, when both GNOME and KDE developers retreated to friendly competition, there must always be someone like Stof, Speed and Dennis E. Powell.
@rjan: I can confirm everything I have posted here by bringing up references. But you and me will agree that this is really timeconsuming.
I have only one question to you. You previously wrote that Evolution 1.3 (soon 2.0) has started. Please point me to the CVS entries for it.
You came up with that first so please show it to me. If you are such a no-liyar then you would have done it already.
As I already said, it’s good that Sun won’t alienate their customers by going Linux all the way, unlike someone said earlier. Even then, Sun might end up to be the most committed Linux supporter – because they own nothing to Microsoft (i.e. MS doesn’t have them by the bollocks).
The other thing that is apparent, if you think logically, is that this is definitely the end of Solaris for Intel. If they have the Linux community developing an Intel OS for them, why continue throwing money at R&D efforts to port Solaris to Intel? Even though Solaris is way better than Linux, for single CPU workstations (read: small storage, as opposed to servers) Linux will do just fine.
The tricky sector is the network appliances. When they bought Qube or what’s his face, they moved from Linux to Solaris for Intel. In prospect, they will have to move back to Linux, even though some of those appliances have 2 CPUs and can be used in scenarios with large storage in external disk enclosures, and there Linux isn’t really topdog. Time for product management to roll up their sleeves, I guess….
*sigh* you never once spelled my name properly.
Stof: @rjan: I can confirm everything I have posted here by bringing up references. But you and me will agree that this is really timeconsuming.
But since no one else does agree with you, why not bring on the references. References can be good, especially on that claim that most GNOME users are moving to KDE instead of going to GNOME 2. It would be interesting to see.
Stof: I have only one question to you. You previously wrote that Evolution 1.3 (soon 2.0) has started. Please point me to the CVS entries for it.
IIRC, it is in //gnome-test-plans/ but since on this Windows system I have no CVS browsing app (using a web browser to browse a CVS is not that…. pleasing).
Besides, the GNOME 2.0 port would be Evolution 1.4, most likely. Only applications significantly changed like Galeon would carry a new major version (like 2.0). The port of Evolution to GTK+ isn’t a major redesign of Evolution.
Besides, in the other thread, I backed down from that claim of the port, because accroading to #evolution no/little work has gone into the port.
Now, how about you backing up YOUR claims. You made so many claims that you never backed, and you are holding ONE claim made by me against me.
Sorry man, but I just read your last post – i am not really interested in that particular topic of yours, but I had a peek anyway. Well, it looks like you did not back any of your claims, at all. I don’t mind one way or another, but I just thought that post was really hilarious :o)
Now, how about you backing up YOUR claims. Heh, you’re a real joker!
@rajaaan: I asked first to show me your claims. Maybe you show good will and shot it first to me
@rajaaan: I asked first to show me your claims. Maybe you show good will and shot it first to me
Will you stop being such a baby? You obviously can’t back up any of your lies, so why do you continue to make yourself look like a fool?
> Will you stop being such a baby? You obviously can’t back up
> any of your lies, so why do you continue to make yourself
> look like a fool?
He didn’t either. So who actually is looking like a fool ? None of rayan’s replies contain 50% of truths. But if you know it better feel free to show me what you think are my lies so I can correct you.
He didn’t either. So who actually is looking like a fool ? None of rayan’s replies contain 50% of truths. But if you know it better feel free to show me what you think are my lies so I can correct you.
I really don’t care about your dispute with Rajan. And why do you insist on misspelling his name? This only makes you look childish. If you don’t provide proof of your claims then I can only assume you’re lying. If I came to you and said “pigs can fly, trust me I know everything” would you believe me? Any sane person would want proof before believing such a claim. So far you haven’t provided any evidence of any kind, so I cannot believe you.
@Yama: Ok, please tell me what you want proofs for and I come up with them. Specially for you. By the way read the RedHat thread, the last 3 replies from me
> The tricky sector is the network appliances. When they
> bought Qube or what’s his face, they moved from Linux to
> Solaris for Intel.
Not true. I am a former Cobalt Networks employee, now working for Sun. The appliances have always run Linux as their OS. The only product Sun offers which runs Solaris for x86 is the new LX50, and even that comes with Sun Linux pre-installed. (The Solaris CDs are in the box, and you can re-install it if you wish. And Solaris 9 for x86 will be available (and supported) on LX50 starting in December when Update 2 for Solaris 9 is available, so Solaris for x86 is not going away anytime soon.)
If that’s true, then they’re stretching their development a bit thin. And by all means, if they are going to port Solaris 9 to x86 they should think really hard whether they need Linux at all. I don’t see it that they do.
Hey guys, could you stop the, “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours”, posts (I realize it’s mostly Stof)?
Anyway, I am using KDE right now, but I really like Gnome as well (and also WindowMaker, Fluxbox and a bunch of other WMs). I switch around based on my current mood and I am extremely thankful that I have that option.
Anyway, it really doesn’t matter if Sun ships with Gnome or CDE or any other GUI environment. People buy their systems for what they can do, not for how they look. I really don’t see how Gnome is dragging Sun down. When I use Gnome on my Solaris machine at work, all the apps run equally well as when I run CDE, so please, all the “Gnome sucks” whiners, stop whining about Gnome like a bunch of girly mules.
mario: I didn’t notice you making any real anti-gnome posts (ok you made one, expressing you’re opinion, that’s fair enough – everyones entitled to express his opinion as long as he doesn’t flood the forum with it) – apologies for the misunderstanding, i should have made it clear that it was targeted at Stof – who seems to make about a quarter of the posts in this forum and has a go at gnome in virtually every one of them.
This place is getting worse than slashdot – at least their moderation would filter most of his crap.
My mom is the onyl one who previewed it screen-shot style because she still loves her Tandy, my friends have used it for basic tasks like Websurfing,E-Mail, and Music.
I use Evolution, and I actually quite like Galeon. I also like the look of Gnome,the darker color etc.
I can easily see how a person could prefer Gnome if browsing web, Email etc.
I do think though that if they are maintaining their system then KDE is better right now. I think the control panel is better than the Gnome counterparts, Konqueror is good and the context sensitive menus are better. I have not done extensive work between apps in Gnome so I cannot compare. (also mainly in Gnome 1.4).
I am really waiting for Nautilus to improve, because that is really my biggest frustration. When it does I think I’ll move to Gnome.
Andrew
Iconoclast, I remember using CDE, and it blew. The thing that people don’t understand about guis is that they’re there to make a better interface to the machine, not provide eye candy. A great interface makes even very experienced people much faster.
It’s an art. I don’t think the Gnome or KDE guys are starting from that vantage point of what an interface is actually about.
Maybe it’s up for people to use their code to accomplish this, people with taste. A great design makes it so you don’t know what windowing system you’re running.
By the way, why aren’t these back-and-forth trolls moderated? These micro-differences are unimportant, since neither of them are good. One’s just better than the other.
I bet these posts aren’t moderated because Eugenia is taking a day off from this insanity 🙂
Robert, I agree with you completely – UI is an art and Linux needs this. No criticism intended toward anyone who has contributed to what we have now. It is the Ui people that are needed now.
Solaris is mainly a server OS. Why does everything here have to boil down to a desktop usability war? Almost none of the posts here are even slightly ontopic.
I think Sun is right in saying their customers don’t want linux, but a solution. And linux still has a long long way to go before it can compete with solaris on the high end
. (Not a troll, I’m a big linux fan)
You never bothered to read the article or at least the synopsys Eugenia provided, have you?
Stof: @rajaaan: I asked first to show me your claims. Maybe you show good will and shot it first to me
I don’t understand. Are you asking me to back up my claims? (I have done exactly that). Or are you asking me to make new claims? (I done that, no interest in making new ones)
Besides, as the first poster, shouldn’t you be the one backing up your claims? Why not?
Besides, is English your first language? If yes, are you a American? (If you answer no to the first one, I understand, or if you answer yes to the next qyestion, I would also understand).
Stof: He didn’t either. So who actually is looking like a fool ? None of rayan’s replies contain 50% of truths.
Funny. Cause it is everyone calling you a troll, and nobody for me. One even called me unbiased.
Stof: @Yama: Ok, please tell me what you want proofs for and I come up with them. Specially for you. By the way read the RedHat thread, the last 3 replies from me
None of them contain any backing, especially “Proof #3”. 🙁
mario: And by all means, if they are going to port Solaris 9 to x86 they should think really hard whether they need Linux at all. I don’t see it that they do.
Not really, the hype is on Linux now, not Solaris. Solaris would look like a major joke for the desktop if it tried to compete with Linux – not because it is bad technically, but because there is no “hype” behind it.
Iconoclast: Hey guys, could you stop the, “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours”, posts (I realize it’s mostly Stof)?
Well, I should him mine, I don’t care if he shows any proof because I doubt he has any.
kevin: My mom is the onyl one who previewed it screen-shot style because she still loves her Tandy, my friends have used it for basic tasks like Websurfing,E-Mail, and Music.
Well, my mum is much better off using Window Maker than KDE nor GNOME :-). Besides, I found her using KDE much more better than GNOME 2.0 (the one inside Mandrake RC1). I tried GNOME 2 with my dad, but the only reason why he isn’t using it because OpenOffice.org’s lack of features.
Andrew: I am really waiting for Nautilus to improve, because that is really my biggest frustration. When it does I think I’ll move to Gnome.
Are you talking about GNOME 1.4’s Nautilus or GNOME 2.0’s? 2.0’s is much better, though I find myself using GNOME 1 GMC and Konqueror much more (especially when dealing with more than a thousand files, and dealing with packages).
Robert Hanlin: The thing that people don’t understand about guis is that they’re there to make a better interface to the machine, not provide eye candy.
Robert Hanlin, I never thought I would say this: I agree with you. I don’t know what’s this obsession with eye candy, over plain practical UI. Yeah, eye candy is nice, but it shouldn’t replace proper UI designing. More and more UI designers are thinking the opposite (eye candy over UI), mainly because of Mac OS X.
Robert Hanlin: By the way, why aren’t these back-and-forth trolls moderated?
I don’t know. 🙂
Robert Hanlin, I never thought I would say this: I agree with you.
Don’t feel bad, this is my argumentative persona. At other places I’m very nice, it’s just that I see Eugenia blasting people, coloring the tone here, and that side of me comes out.
I’m not a great fan of “Robert Hanlin” either. 😉