El Reg has reveiwed Windows Vista. “So, there’s our first look at Vista. It does benefit from a lot of good ideas, many of them Apple’s, of course, but good nevertheless. It simply doesn’t work very well, unfortunately. There are serious problems with execution; it’s not polished; it’s not ready. It should not be on the market, and certainly not for the outrageous prices being charged. Don’t buy it, at least until after the first service pack is out. Don’t pay to be a beta tester.” Elsewhere, analysts believe Windows Vista will take a bite out of Mac’s market share.
People need to reminded that Vista isn’t stuck at Flip3D demo (Win+TAB). The new DWM API in Vista allows for full 3D effects. One could make an Exposé clone. Or the plug ins that Beryl has.
Wow….sign me up for Vista Ultimate then, since everyone that buys Vista is obviously a software developer.
You seem to think the majority of the bagillions of Windows users worldwide actually care that this thing has a new API? You seriously need to get out more.
Speaking of which, here is one of the various Expose clones floating around:
http://lifehacker.com/software/expose/download-of-the-day-my-expos-…
I wonder why MS didn’t do it right if the first place. Flip 3D is mostly usefull for screenshots.
Like in the latest EDGE magazine (UK Readers). At least they managed to make Vista look decent on paper.
Why this comment has been modded down? It’s perfectly on topic.
There’s one fundamental flaw with analysing the IT market… analysts assume that there is some sort of logic in people’s decisions. Quite often this is not the case.
Many high up CEOs will force their IT department to buy Windows because the advert looks good, or they installed it at home and it looked cool, despite that when installed on the low power business machines it’ll only look as good as XP.
Many home users will buy the high end Macbook Pro 17″ for emailing their nephew… probably many more home users are going to get Vista despite how many bugs it has, simply because of OEM licensing deals.
Will Vista take a bite out of Apple’s marketshare? Maybe, maybe not. Everyone seems to think something different, so why even bother telling people what you saw in your crystal ball? Only time will tell, I’m afraid…
Nothing against Mac, but I’m ruing the day when the owner of our new company comes to me and asks that I connect his Powerbook to our AD network.
As far as Vista eating into Apple’s marketshare….are they kidding me? Friggin analysts once again talking about industries they have no concept of. They obviously don’t realize that the majority of Mac users simply buy macs because they’re NOT Microsoft. It’s like the owner of a nice shiny Mac Pro is going to wake up one morning and think, “You know…..I like OS X, but DAMN that commercial for Vista is cool! I think I’ll buy a copy and uninstall Tiger!”
Nothing against Mac, but I’m ruing the day when the owner of our new company comes to me and asks that I connect his Powerbook to our AD network.
You could try installing the AD4Unix plug in. This gives you a schema update to handle the attributes needed for unixlike systems.
I doubt that most Mac users use a mac because its not Microsoft. They buy Macs because of their superiour design, and that things have a tendency to just work.
You are right though that, they are unlikely to uninstall Mac OS-X and install Vista instead. Why should they? MacOS looks just as cool as Vista, if not more so, and compares very favorable on features.
AD4Unix, huh? Gotta remember that. Thanks.
Many high up CEOs will force their IT department to buy Windows because the advert looks good, or they installed it at home and it looked cool
No they won’t. In any company large enough to have an IT department, the CEO will ask the CIO (IT Manager) about Vista. The CIO will tell the CEO what he wants to hear… which is that all of their apps work fine on Windows XP, so there’s no reason to initiate an expensive upgrade cycle. The CEO will walk away pleased that they don’t have to spend any money.
Wrong. I know a company first hand that was forced to upgrade to Vista because before any real testing by their IT department they were sold on the “improve security” hype. Not only that, outside contractors dealing with them were “strongly” told to upgrade also.
End result, massive issues but good for me as I gained several of the outside contractors as new clients after the disaster.
(Maybe it wasn’t strictly from the CEO, but whoever made the decision based on limited testing results in the same behavior as if it was the CEO.)
Edited 2007-02-15 15:35
You would really be surprised at the incompetency and decision making issues of some successful companies in the IT area…
Where I live, there have been many upgrade cycles initiated in the government either by know-nothing people high up in the government or admins that got excited over the adverts. They upgraded all their Win2k systems to XP/Server 2003 for no real reason, and now they’re going to upgrade them all to Vista apparently.
Now these are by no means small networks, the upgrade to XP/2003 cost literally tens of millions in hardware upgrade costs, software costs, training, etc. The security took hits for some reason, and applications that once worked no longer worked. The systems were (and still are) generally configured worse, and on top of that there were no reasons they could give me that they actually did the upgrade.
The only reason I ever saw was one govmnt person saying “Windows XP will solve all our computer infrastructure problems” (which I laughed at, XP not having been released yet). I’ve talked to the people who initiated these upgrades and they really didn’t know what they were doing.
“Many high up CEOs will force their IT department to buy Windows because the advert looks good, or they installed it at home and it looked cool”
Have you ever actually worked in an IT department, or a business of any kind? No manager (much less someone at the CxO level) would ever make a decision of that magnitude A) from watching advertisements or B) with a brand new product.
Half the IT departments I’ve done consulting work for are still on Windows 2000 Pro. No decision makers I’ve talked to have any plans to move to Vista before SP1.
Actually I am working within a large organisation at the moment and they currently have Win2000 on the desktop.. they are currently starting a rollout of VISTA to all 2,000 to 3,000 staff.
The CxO decided this would be the way he would leave his mark.
I personally think it will be a lot of brown marks all over the place where the sh*t has hit the fan.
Edited 2007-02-15 10:39
– “Many home users will buy the high end Macbook Pro 17″ for emailing their nephew.” –
Many home users will buy the high end Macbook Pro 17″ because they like a bigger integrated screen with OSX and that is their only choice. Don’t assume that such machines are purchased only because they are “high end.” Many people really do buy computers based on one or two important features, even if the rest of the system is “overkill”.
Fair enough if you like the big screen, but why the high end Macbook Pro 17″?
You see, I’ve seen people buy high end Dell 15″ laptops packed out with features like X1600 graphics for £1000+, when they could have gotten a low end <£600 Dell laptop that was styled almost the same and did everything they wanted it to (emails, Microsoft Word) do with no significant speed difference.
Wow, this is a bad day for Microsoft at OSNEWS. All the last news are so pathetic that I’m starting to understand all the MS haters out there (I’m a Linux user, but had nothing serious against MS up to now).
A bad day? I’d say it’s been a bad month for them.
There are so many reviewers from small and big publications unsatisfied with the current version I’m rather surprised Microsoft doesn’t crawl under a rock in shame.
If I didn’t already feel like Vista would be a step back from a good XP installation I’d certainly would thinks so after reading tech news for the last month.
Still, I’ll start with running Vista in VMware (yes, screw the EULA) just to see if the functionality has become better or worse.
I don’t care about all the bling bling but only if I can do my job better with Vista.
There are so many reviewers from small and big publications unsatisfied with the current version I’m rather surprised Microsoft doesn’t crawl under a rock in shame.
True, but it would be nice if we could get some reviews from power users. I want to know how the system handles the strain when you put it under heavy loads, but the ass bandits who I’ve seen reviewing the product so far can’t even make their way past the default apps and/or install it over Windows XP and then wonder why shit doesn’t work right.
And for those of you who are in yet ANOTHER pissing contest about who invented what first, PLEASE STOP!!!! Nobody cares.
Edited 2007-02-15 01:13
contest about who invented what first, PLEASE STOP!!!! Nobody cares.
I think the guy who actually had the idea first might. Credit where credit’s due I always say.
Edited 2007-02-15 01:50
it would be nice if we could get some reviews from power users
*nods* I agree. That would be more interesting for those of us who use it professionally.
Unfortunately, the majority of Windows users are no power users. They call the helpdesk when the taskbar got moved to the other side of the screen accidentally. For these people reviews like this makes sense if they think of doing an upgrade themselves or letting the nextdoor neighbour do it who happens to know how to click on setup.
If they let someone do the upgrade who knows what she/he’s doing, these reviews will prepare them for questions that might come up.
Other classes of interesting reviews would be for gamers, DTP professionals, developers for instance.
For me, it would be a review of everything to do with an Active Directory domain.
A bad day? I’d say it’s been a bad month for them.
Bad month? Without wanting to get into one-upmanship, I say bad quarter, maybe a bit more. (And by quarter I mean the three 30 or 31-day months that end today, Feb 13 2007)
“Next, there’s the Flip-3D feature, which gives you a moving Rolodex view of your open windows. When the one you want comes into view, you stop flipping at that point and it opens for you. Unfortunately, there seems not to be a reverse feature on this little merry-go-round, so if you miss your stop, round you go again.”
From Windows Vista Online Help (it’s very easy to find stuff in it)
You can also open Flip 3D by pressing CTRL+Windows logo key Picture of the Windows logo key+TAB. You can then press TAB to cycle through the windows. (You can also press RIGHT ARROW or DOWN ARROW to cycle forward one window, or press LEFT ARROW or UP ARROW to cycle backward one window.) Press ESC to close Flip 3D.
Link:
http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/Help/ffab5395-d72f-4…
The article is full of misleading items like this one. It does not go deep into the operating system and does not even provide a fair and professional review of the UI enhancements.
Edited 2007-02-15 00:00
The article is full of misleading items like this one. It does not go deep into the operating system and does not even provide a fair and professional review of the UI enhancements
I agree, some items are misleading. Another example is that you can get rid of security popups if you just go to its window and say “don’t notify me”… if you try to be an advanced user and brute-force it by killing services, etc, the reviewer is right, it really keeps nagging. 🙂
But on the overall I would have to agree with the article, Vista sucks in a huge way. Improving the shell and adding their iPhotoForVista (or whatever) could have easily been an add-on for XP. All the other “system improvements” are idiotic or just hidden agenda for DRM enablement.
Go XP!
But on the overall I would have to agree with the article, Vista sucks in a huge way. Improving the shell and adding their iPhotoForVista (or whatever) could have easily been an add-on for XP. All the other “system improvements” are idiotic or just hidden agenda for DRM enablement.
Windows Mail, Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Contacs, Windows Calendar… , well, they could be add-on and in regards with your iReference, none of these were actually invented by apple.
On the other hand, DirectX 10, the whole UAC, a completley re-written audio stack, the new printing system and XPS, huge enhancements in Networking stack, several changes and improvments in the Kernel, superfetch, readyboos, readydrive, the new group policy management system, PowerShell or Windows Shell and the new undelying scripting system, .NET3.0 (WPF/WCF…), bitlocker and many many others were practically impossible or extremely difficult to port to (or as you say have as an add-on) XP. DRM does not have a big part in any of these and does not bother you unless you want to access DRMed Media which is your own fault. You bought them, MS simply provides you the ability to use what you bought! You and me might not like (edit: or even HATE) DRM, but 90% of consumers would go nuts if their new Windows Vista machine was not able to play the HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk they just bought.
Edited 2007-02-15 00:51
Windows Mail, Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Contacs, Windows Calendar… , well, they could be add-on and in regards with your iReference, none of these were actually invented by apple.
Invented certainly no. But if iApple hadn’t bundled these iFeatures, I really doubt Microsoft would have.
Most of the features you list certainly could have been ported. DirectX was a redistributable add-on for ages. You may say it’s no longer possible to back-port it because the display stack has changed. Fine. But that stack was “fixed” to accomodate DRM, and the same goes for audio.
(And don’t say Microsoft has been forced to go the DRM route. They like the idea of being in control of your box, just as much as the media companies do.)
Anyway that was just an example. It applies across the board for anything that isn’t going to be back-ported. Your list is intentionally too long anyway. For example, PowerShell and NET 3 are already ported to XP.
But I like these kernel enhancements most… Particulary SuperFetch and ReadyBoost. They make the OS such a bloated pig, then “enhance” it with these lame features to counter the bloatness.
Vista sucks. Go XP!
All this NEW shiny features toke only 5 years to develop with 70 000 workers. Oh..great job.
The combination SHIFT+Win+TAB also works. And the user can also use the scroll wheel to select next or previous open application.
People have been using ALT+TAB and SHIFT+ALT+TAB for a very long time now…
ALT+TAB yes, SHIFT+ALT+TAB no 😛
On Win2K3 I mostly do ALT+{1,2,3,4} in order to switch desktops
The Flip3D windows looks cool but in reality the Expose MacOS-X/Linux way of doing this is much better.
Flipping the windows just makes the text in the windows hard to see.
The Flip3D windows looks cool but in reality the Expose MacOS-X/Linux way of doing this is much better.
Flipping the windows just makes the text in the windows hard to see.
Okay, so download My Exposé for Vista (and you will see more things of this nature as more learn how to code against DWM).
http://blogs.labo-dotnet.com/simon/archive/2006/11/08/11485.aspx
So … ALT+Tab cycles through windows in one order and ALT+Shift+Tab cycles through windows in reverse order.
But … Win+Tab cycles through windows via Flip3D in one order … and CTRL+Win + arrows allows you to cycle through windows via Flip3D in the same or reversed order?
Yeah, that’s intuitive. :rolleyes:
Would it have killed them to implement Win+Tab and Win+Shift+Tab, to correspond to the existing ALT+Tab and ALT+Shift+Tab?
[Note: I have not used Vista, so if this feature is in there, you can ignore this post.]
Edited 2007-02-15 06:34
Win+Shift+Tab works as expected. Not sure why you would think otherwise.
I confess to never having even seen a working Vista computer in real life. In computer stores, all I ever seen is the login screen that asks for a password (is that clever marketing?).
But El Reg makes me curious: can it be so bad as Greene says, for that money, after so many years? I’d like to see it for myself. Is there a Vista live-dvd anywhere that I can try out, without killing my files on the hard drive?
http://www.windowsvistatestdrive.com/
Hope this helps.
Definitely not anywhere close to having it on your machine though.
Edited 2007-02-15 00:03
http://www.windowsvistatestdrive.com/
Hope this helps.
Definitely not anywhere close to having it on your machine though.
Thanks.. it seems I need Internet Explorer though.
I could try running that with Wine.. quite a detour.
They’re not making it easy for me!
…It would be so easy for MS to just spread a live-dvd image as a torrent.
Yeah, it’s really stupid of them in sense of marketing a new product. They just banned a potential customer from trying their product. Even if they have to rely on some technology only available in IE to provide this online experience they should give people on other operating systems a chance to try Vista. I’m on DamnSamll myself, brwosing with firefox, tried the testdrive at work though!
You’re clearly not the target audience.
If you do a basic WhoIs, you will see that this site has nothing to do with Microsoft; probably just a way to get spyware on your machine.
It didn’t work in Firefox and I’m not going to start IE 6.0 just for this (plus get extra bonus spyware/malware).
I even tried to notify them about this by clicking on Feedback button, but that one worked with IE 6.0 as well… wtf?
You could run it in VM…..oh wait… Looks like you’re S.O.L, my friend.
Better reading some other reviews that have been people who don’t on purpose spread FUD. El Reg is the most famous FUD spreading media in Internet at moment. First i dont get where this guy gets price for Vista, i guess he’s either lying or just plain stupid. Most of article he is complaining how HIM been total idiot makes Vista bad, so pure fresh smelling bullshit El Reg article backed in white and red, happy late valentine’s day.
> First i dont get where this guy gets price for Vista
Amazon UK, which I guess he could have bought from (well, it’s the closest Amazon to Ireland 🙂 And yes, http://www.amazon.ie redirects to Amazon UK) has the RRP of UK Vista Ultimate at 369.99 pounds = $722. Not miles off of the $780 he quoted, but not hugely close either.
Remember, however, he’s quoting the cost in Ireland, which has always been a typically more expensive economy than the UK (hard to believe, considering the “rip-off Britain” high prices we UK folks endure), so that might make up the remaining $58.
BTW, Microsoft are having a complete joke with the UK Vista prices – can you seriously believe *anyone* would pay the RRP (or even Amazon’s 326.99 pounds) for Vista Ultimate when it costs more than a PC can be bought for?
My favorite line from the review:
The stand-alone version of Vista Ultimate retails for €600, or $780 here in Ireland. Amazon.com is selling this $780 version to Americans for $380. Or, to put it another way, Europeans are subsidising Americans by $400 on every copy they buy.
Is Microsoft trying to kill their own marketshare?
Also, do yourself a favor and read the entire review, the third page contains some enjoyable, yet sad observations. Heheh @ *craplets*.
Really, how can Vista compete with XP, OSX, and Linux?
If you try Vista out expecting anything more than extra bloat (5 gig empty default install), extra confirmation popups/notices for everything, reworking of the Fischer-Price interface, and excruciating price, you’ll be disappointed.
I agree. The only thing I didn’t already know about Vista was the relative pricing in various geographies. I can’t believe that Vista is more than double the price in Europe than it is in the US. That’s outrageous! At what point does the EU step up and demand that MS sell Vista for a price that’s at least remotely consistent with the US pricing?
I’m not sure if the EU can do something about the price for software, even if it’s cheaper outside the EU.
A quick check on the pricewatch of tweakers.net shows the retail price for Ultimate (UK and NL) to be around €500, give or take €25, with one crazy exception who charges €838. o.O; That better be a typo on their part…
I can’t believe that Vista is more than double the price in Europe than it is in the US. That’s outrageous! At what point does the EU step up and demand that MS sell Vista for a price that’s at least remotely consistent with the US pricing?
At what point does the EU stop taking MS to court? MS is going to pass those costs on to the consumer.
Do you really think that’s the primary explanation for the cost difference? Or do you rather think that this is just MS being MS… you know, not giving a damn about whatever anyone else thinks?
Anti-trust laws are primarily there to prevent monopolists from charging artificially high prices. Charging twice as much in one part of the world than another for a product that has an extremely low marginal cost of delivery qualifies as artificial pricing. As MS is a “convicted” monopolist in the EU, they have a strong case against them with regard to these price discrepancies.
I don’t think MS would be allowed to continue doing business in the EU if they responded to an artificial pricing suit by further increasing the prices in the EU. Microsoft’s Windows franchise is NOT strong enough to survive being barred from doing business in the EU. Not only will this dramatically affect their revenues, but it will also dramatically increase the revenues of competing vendors like Red Hat, Novell, and Apple. MS will not be able to sustain the 10,000 or so employees necessary to toil with the complexity of the Windows codebase.
MS has the right to charge what ever they want for their product. If you don’t like it don’t buy it. It will be a sad day when the EU tells companies how much they can charge for their products. If you have setup shop to be strickly MS and cannot afford to upgrade, that is not MS problem or the EU’s problem. That is your problem.
Actually, it is the EU’s problem, because they should focus on making the economy as efficient as possible. And MS-shops are part of that economy, as are home users buying the thing.
Edited 2007-02-15 12:47
Is that really part of the EU’s laws or “constitution”? Ensuring the price of software for home users? I guess growing up in america tells me the market will decide the price. Supply and demand etc.
Charging twice as much in one part of the world than another for a product that has an extremely low marginal cost of delivery qualifies as artificial pricing.
But consider that before you can actually deliver to that other part of the world, first you have to invest in more development, just for that part.
MS could say that having to translate Microsoft for ten languages of EU, or create the N versions required by the EU, justifies the extra cost.
It would not make sense to impose this extra cost on the domestic American consumer.
Is this price the one Microsoft charges, or is it so high because of all the taxes/duties/etc. applied to it by European countries? If this is Microsoft’s before-tax price, that is really lame.
Crude but true.
I do not figure out why Vista is so bloated, why the Aero interface eats so many resources (while Beryl, Compiz or Aqua having similar functionality, are lighter).
Maybe a Vista SP1 will solve the problems?
Sir, despite your optimism, this is Microsoft remember? MS and bloat go hand in hand. I am just waiting for vLite and SP1 of Vista to come out…they have managed to squeeze the install onto a CD now. I would rather keep XP 32 bit or upgrade to XP 64 bit and keep it like that till whatever the next version of OS MS decides to come out with in 2009 meaning 2011. I have too many apps I use unfortunately that are great on XP at the moment. Perhaps I will grow out of my addiction?
In Australia Vista Ultimate costs the equivalent of US$550. It is much cheaper to buy a new whitebox PC (You will get the disk) than buy a retail copy of vista.
Great!!
So you can buy a new PC and install some Linux, BSD or OpenSolaris on it! Do it!
Edited 2007-02-15 00:19
“So, there’s our first look at Vista. It does benefit from a lot of good ideas, many of them Apple’s, of course, but good nevertheless.”
Shut up, just shut up. I’m tired of hearing this. Considering it’s WRONG.
Vista was in development along the same time as Mac. We all know Mac has a closed development cycle as in they don’t disclose any information nor show it off until it’s near release.
How in the HELL could Vista have taken these things then?
MacOS X 10.4 already had all those features available on mid 2005!!!
I heard a argument that longhorn had the features before Tiger, is this true?
Oh yeah and Microsoft had no idea what was going to go in Vista in mid 2005.. right.
Vista was in development along the same time as Mac. We all know Mac has a closed development cycle as in they don’t disclose any information nor show it off until it’s near release.
How in the HELL could Vista have taken these things then?
Cool, are you for real? I’ve seen people running OS X for years, with all the spotlight and gadget stuff in it for quite a while too. And yes, I know the Finder sucks.
But, I know you’re joking, so this reply too is just for entertainment value.
Not that “closed development” really matters much. You really think MS can’t get their hands on what Apple do before it’s out? It’s in the best interest of Apple to show much of what they’re doing to Microsoft, because if MS would create something too similar, it’s much easier to accuse them of using the copiers. If you see something, it’s much more difficult to avoid being inspired by it. And if MS keep thinking OS X is the benchmark, they will never escape the role of being the follower. Keeping things a real secret @Apple might force MS to really innovate, don’t it sound wild? Something Apple wants to avoid.
Obviously all companies that having changing APIs/ABIs seed their developers with early versions. It’s naive to think that MS doesn’t have many Macs on site and is part of the Mac developers….they do publish MS Office for Mac don’t they? 😆
I have noticed that some Mac fans seem to have a rather creative and overly generous (towards Apple) view of computing history sometimes. That is, Apple invented just about everything, everyone else just copied. At least they don’t claim that Apple invented TCP/IP (well, at least yet…)
Granted, they have done some important bits here and there, though largely, like just about _everyone_ else, they see somebody else’s idea, take what they like about it, add whatever they think up, package it all up with their look and feel and custom touches, and voila, it’s the new iWhatever!
OSX is a great example of creative pilfering right down to the kernel. Not much wrong that, but it does get annoying when folks forget this, and start pointing fingers.
In terms of Vista and OSX similarity, I don’t quite get it. I’ve run the latter, and I’m typing this from Vista Enterprise, and sure, there’s some areas where you can see MS obviously had an eye on the competition, but overall, they’re still quite different. If anything, Vista is reminding me of recent versions of KDE. But then, folks will say KDE gets its model from Windows…
Edited 2007-02-15 00:48
The thing that I find ammusing is that Max OSX was released around 4(or 3 or 7 or something) years ago. While Vista was released last month (Don’t you dare mention RTM!). And yet they are pretty similar in functionality.
Versions of Linux actually had 3D style desktop graphics available to users before Apple ever did. Not to the extent of Mac OS X or Vista, but they were the original.
Microsoft does try to out do everything though. I don’t blame them one bit for it either. If I had a business I’d sure as hell try and out do everyone else that was having success with a similar product.
I’m not trying to defend Microsoft or anything. I don’t like a lot of things they do, and I don’t like a lot of things Apple does either. But I love both Vista and OS X, not to mention Linux variations, BeOS, and others. They all have their pluses. Variety is a good thing.
“Free Beer and Wings Day” at Redmond for Apple employees?
It could happen….
Well, 10.4 was first previewed in June 2004.
In August 2004, Microsoft announced that it was basically starting fresh with Longhorn, building upon Windows Server 2003.
This isn’t to imply that certain features in OS X (Spotlight, Widgets, look and feel) were implemented by Microsoft right after Apple publicly previewed them, but the timeframe certainly allows for it.
Plus, there were other features (most notably Expose) available in 10.3, which was originally previewed in June 2003.
Edited 2007-02-15 00:53
And Microsoft was demoing most of the planned features for “Longhorn” in 2003 and earlier.
It’s not WRONG, but it’s not completely RIGHT either.
You know, you make a good point. Clearly MS was developing these features since long before Tiger was released (software development doesn’t happen overnight). So it’s unfair to say that they just ripped-off Expose, Spotlight and Dashboard. It’s also not easy to say who thought of these things first.
To be fair, I would expect to see these features in any modern OS and that is exactly what we are seeing in the OSS desktops too (Beryl/Compiz, Beagle, Plasma/SuperKaramba, etc – people conveniently forget this). Some groups innovate, some copy. Most do a little of both, it’s how the technology generally evolves. No party is innocent of this behavior and that’s not necessarily a bad thing – the consumer wins.
However. What is shameless is how Microsoft has impemented these ideas. These videos illustrates the point well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDNuq94Zg_8.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9UPhwmjJ-Y
Desktop search could have been implemented in a number of ways. Calendar/photo managers/address books could have been done differently. Why then, is the visual design so similar to OS X?
MS may have been developing the features for years, but IMHO the UI was ‘acquired’ in the last year.
Your quite right that this line of argumentation is a bit stupid. OS X is hardly the first system to feature a vector display and composited UI. That probably dates back to NeXTStep, if not earlier. And at an architectural level, Avalon and Aqua are quite different. Avalon is built around a scene graph (retained mode), while Aqua uses a procedural model (immediate mode).
However, it’s fairly apparent that Apple set the standard here. OS X DP4 defined what a modern display system should look like (vector-based, fully anti-aliased, fully-composited, etc). This was back in March 2000, a year and a half before Windows XP was released. Since then, the work in this area has been implementation, in the Windows, Linux, and OS X camps. There isn’t really anything in Vista that’s fundamentally different than what was in DP4, rather Vista has a faster, more featureful implementation of the same basic concepts. And again, Apple is hardly the first one to implement these concepts, but they’re certainly the ones that set the bar for all of their competitors.
Actually OS X development started, probably, before XP development.
Is that you Steve Ballmer? You should really get a grip on that aggression…it’s just going to cause high blood pressure.
Looks like MS plans to make up all the money they lost to the EU paying fines and creating new versions.
BTW, it’s funny that N versions (without Windows Media Player) are available only for Home Basic and Business so you’re out of luck if you want Windows N with Bitlocker (or Chess Titans
).
I’m nitpicking.
It’s not pretty.
– Lots of lock ups in IE 7.
– HP PSC1210 doesn’t have a Vista Driver so I can’t use my Scanning Software with it. I have to use the Microsoft Scanning software, so I lose my normal workflow.
– Favorite game Gems3D doesn’t work.
– Adaptec Easy CD Creator 5 installer fails, so I can’t install the CD Cover designer that has all my CD and DVD covers created over 5 years, and Adaptec keeps fixing what isn’t broken in new versions and doesn’t import these old files into new versions.
– No burning software other than what comes with Windows Vista.
Lots of negatives so far. I agree with the assessment that Vista is FAR from done and WAY too expensive for what it offers.
I’d have been happier with an XP 2.0, that included all the new technologies, had been optimized to run faster and crash less, and was more secure.
Instead, I got an OS that fails to run all my necessary apps, wants me to buy all new hardware, and forces me to reboot several times a day to control for IE crashing.
Thank God I never opened the box on the retail upgrade I purchased and am using an MSDN CD from work without a S/N to try this out for 30 days before cracking the seal…
This is NOT a keeper.
I’ll be going back to Windows XP since Microsoft doesn’t care about me getting my work done with perfectly good hardware I already own, and just wants me to toss it all out (adding to waste disposal problems) and find over a thousand dollars to replace it all…
No thanks…
I’ll be back to XP very quickly and working nicely again.
I’ll pur the money I get back from my Vista purchase towards a new Mac…
Can’t wait for the sequel on security .
There’s an old saying that this review is a perfect example of:
“Don’t confuse me with the facts; I’ve got my mind made up already!”
I hope consumers are more objective and rational in their evaluation of this new product(or of any new product for that matter) than the authors of this article. Lets not make the launch of a new product a platform for speaking out our personal prejudices or grudges.
Personal prejudices or grudges? The author was happy with XP. He went on about his GPU fan not stopping, the security centre never going away, not having proper control over his computer… He was telling Vista exactly as he experienced it, the same as most will experience it. Buggy and different-but-annoyingly-so.
Elsewhere, analysts were asked to say that Windows Vista will take a bite out of Mac’s market share.
But of course it doesn’t matter and analysts can and will change whatever they said if it turns out to be wrong. And besides, being what it is, any random fluctuation in Apple’s share can be seen as ‘a bite’.
Regardless of all the negatives about Vista, in the end if you run Windows you will be running Vista at some point in the future. I’m currently using XP MCE I don’t see any benefit to upgrading for the forseeable future, but as surely as XP only software exists, there will eventually be Vista only releases.
The obvious similarities to OS X are there, but it appears to me to have more in common with Sun’s Project Looking Glass which was demoed mid 2003 and is now open source.
As long as there are more people using XP then there are Vista there is no good reason for devolopers to make their programs vista only.
El Reg rules 🙂
But didn’t they copy and paste the summary from an old Win9x review ?
All well and good, but MS hardly deserves praise for ceasing to torment users and admins with such idiocy. It should have been fixed a decade ago.
Favorite line. MS gets way too much credit for improving on their own mistakes. But that’s probably just human nature. To quote Wicked, “There are none more celebrated than the rehabilitated.”
On a related note, improving a wizard is polishing a turd. The whole idea is an interface abomination, not unlike XP’s “task-based” interface, where button sets change depending on what the OS thinks you’re trying to do. It’s all very slippery and inconsistent and, along with deprecating menu bars (but mainly just in the twin Explorers), the best argument against the claim that Microsoft is copying Apple: it would be much more usable if they were.
(Mercifully, Microsoft has dropped its condescending “My” obsession, and directories are now given grownup names like Computer, Documents, Pictures, and so on. And not a moment too soon.)
Second favorite line. Both “mercifully” and “condescending” were perfect word choices, and made the article a pleasure to read.
In defense of the new start menu, a friend of mine (incidentally, a rabid Microsoft fanboy) pointed out that launching an app via search is much faster than traversing submenus. A fair point, just not yet. Vista is new to everyone. Finding out what it has to offer shouldn’t be the hassle of navigation that it is. The old ways are still necessary. People need a good, dependable list of options, and if you can’t find room in your interface to lay out all the features, then you’re slicing hairs too thin and need to get organized.
I’d say, on the whole, Vista’s interface modifications are smarter than XP’s were. At least you can get some things done without a talking dog getting in your way. Despite that concession, all the interviews lambasting it are both relevant and fair. No matter how much improved, it’s still pretty unlovable.
His sound system works under Linux? How that?
It’s been quite common for years
Nonsense. The X-Fi drivers for Linux have NOT been common for years;
the X-Fi card drivers for Linux have been in the works for a long time. No one seems to know what the progress on them is though, and for the time being it’s a safe bet that Vista support is the priority.
Running an X-Fi card under Linux is not happening. What is happening, however, is Linux users who lost their patience and are buying cards from competing manufacturers that DO offer Linux drivers, for example cards based on the C-media chipset such as used in the Auzentech X-Meridian and some other sound cards.
Personally, I like seeing Linux users voting with their wallets like this.
Edited 2007-02-15 12:29
1) I didn’t claim the X-Fi system worked flawlessly. I merely claimed it has been common for years for sound systems to work in Linux. You didn’t specify that it was X-Fi only.
2) We don’t need drivers from the companies. You don’t know linux at all if you think that’s what happens.
We are more often than not using drivers written by individuals – or by a group of individuals.
3) X-Fi drivers work under Linux. They may or may not give the entire functionality. But they work.
4) Most sound cards work with Linux without any hassle.
5) Personally I’m using a Creative SoundBlaster 4.1 PCI soundcard – it’s based on the Ensoniq 1371. Works flawlessly.
6) *removed*
1) Well, I’m sorry then. I misunderstood that part.
2) “We don’t need drivers from the companies. You don’t know linux at all if you think that’s what happens.”
I use it on a daily basis. That’s not to say I know it in-depth (not even remotely), but I am convinced that companies actively working on/supporting the development of native Linux drivers for their hardware is a great thing.
3) That surpises me, but I honestly didn’t know. If this is a fact, then and I stand corrected on this issue.
4) Well, that’s nice to hear.
5) Well, good for you. The more hardware that works, the better.
I don’t know what you wrote under 6) , but be assured that I really don’t have any beef with you.
The way I understood your comment (I understood it badly it seems) is that you claimed the X-Fi drivers worked perfectly and have done so for many years. Again, my apologies.
You’re far to polite and humble to be posting on these boards Darkelve!
Sorry you got the wrong folks, the only ones I know running an OS because it’s NOT Windows are some of the Linux posers (whereas the Linux geeks run Linux because it’s, well Linux or UN*X).
The Mac users I know buy Macs because many of them are freelancers, creative people, people who don’t work in big corporations, and they need a machine to rely on. A machine they can get some serious work done with, without any hitches and many of the creative people have very tight deadlines, so they need something that doesn’t gets in their way, an OS that allows them to churn out all that cool designy stuff without having to fight the machine: no downtime allowed.
In those markets Mac OS has proven to be the superior workhorse in every way, and that’s why people still buy macs. Only since the event of OS X the alpha geeks have discovered the Mac, but for very similiar reasons (and the fact that OS X gives you all the UN*X goodness along with cool apps and a very productive UI).
Sorry you got the wrong folks, the only ones I know running an OS because it’s NOT Windows are some of the Linux posers (whereas the Linux geeks run Linux because it’s, well Linux or UN*X).
Hmm. Actually I’m sure there are plenty of Mac{,RiscOS,OS/2,VMS} users running their OS of choice because it’s not Microsoft, too. Face it, whether XP works or not, for a lot of us the difference between marketing and execution in many MS products of yesteryear (and if Vista is anything to go by, morrowyear) is staggering/deceitful/patronising/unbelievable. Added to the fact that some of us just don’t like feeding The Beast and are perfectly capable of sending some cash off to feed African orphans without having to buy and suffer Windows in the process.
Equally, however, I know for a fact there are plenty of Windows users using Windows “because it’s not Linux{Mac,RiscOS,OS/2,VMS}”. They either don’t like the menu bar at the top of the screen, or don’t like the lack of customizability and/or applications, or don’t like the fact that you are tied to Apple, or any number of a gazillion other things to dislike about them. (And yes, there are a gazillion things to dislike about Windows and Linux (in general or in various distros) too.)
“Looks like MS plans to make up all the money they lost to the EU paying fines and creating new versions.”
My thoughts exactly when I read the article.
the same expirience as I made. Vista is too complicated.
> the same expirience as I made. Vista is too complicated.
And is a mish-mash of inconsistent user interface.
It really is not ready and could use at least a year of clean up and polish.
And all the people that I’ve talked to lately that went out to buy a new machine are lameting that they can’t get one with XP anymore. i.e. they don’t want Vista.