Submitted by Lots of news on SkyOS. Kaffe using GNU Classpath (without AWT) is now working fine on SkyOS, just like Wine. Although there is no Wine graphics driver yet, you can already start Windows console applications directly from within SkyOS (once a Wine/SkyGI backend is available Wine should run on SkyOS as good as it does on Linux, and will be available via Software Store). On the driver side there is now an ACPI driver including support for ACPI power/sleep buttons (a SkyOS service, the PowerMonitor, will react on power events with configurable actions like shutdown, reboot, etc.). And finally, the SkyOS LiveCD is shaping together and should soon be available. Take a look at the changelog for all updates. Note: If you have problems accessing the SkyOS.org website, please click read more for how to solve this issue. Other than that, read more for a first glimpse of yet another improvement coming to SkyOS.Due to some DNS weirdness, some (including myself) are unable to access SkyOS.org directly. To solve this issue, put the following line in your hosts file:
www.skyos.org 85.214.66.177
The hosts file in Linux is located in /etc/hosts, while in Windows NT/2000/XP/Vista it is in \windows\system32\drivers\etc. Mac OS X stores the file in /private/etc.
Darknesss from the SkyOS community sent me this screenshot, which shows the first signs of life of MySQL running on SkyOS.
This is the sound of the gates of Hell opening…
Windows and java applications (and games) should start pouring in soon…
Welcome these poor souls with glee O my Skyos Brethren !
Did I already say that I love Darkness and worshipp Robert (he must have demon’s blood) ? ^_^
Edited 2007-01-16 14:29
I love how in the modern age of networking, we still need to rely on awful DNS host entry hacks. Ah, technology!
As far as SkyOS goes, I really need to check this out. Maybe it’s time to actually purchase (!!!) a license.
As far as SkyOS goes, I really need to check this out. Maybe it’s time to actually purchase (!!!) a license.
Count me in, this is gettin quite impressive. It feels kind of painful though, because there are many, many, parts of SkyOS based on FOSS. _I’m not_ saying that Robert’s (and all the SkyOS Team’s) work isn’t worth the mere US$30 but, talking seriously, I don’t need SkyOS to run Classpath nor Wine.
Anyway, an amazing work wich deserves to, at least, a try 🙂
I keep on seeing this argument, but the same thing applies to Windows, all the FOSS software that has been ported to SkyOS has already landed in Windows Land. The only difference is that (to date, almost) all the FOSS ports to SkyOs have been made (publically available) by the lead developer.
The actual Operating System (Kernel, Core driver modules, API, even Windowing API), is (apparently) all new, and this is the thing that you are paying for. Of course, the extra FOSS bits are sweetners to make the transition easier, but Robert is not unreasonable for charging for the bits that he has independently (of any OSS project) done himself.
I love how in the modern age of networking
IIRC, there is a problem with the domain ownership of the skyos.org domain (a third party owns it) – and the SkyOS team doesn’t have direct control over it. There is only so much you can do in that situation.
That’s true. Indra Gunawan, one of the SkyOS developers in the 1.0 days, is the domain’s legal owner and the one who actually manages DNS entries. Robert can only get changes made when convenient for Indra.
The problem is that one of the seven nameservers listed gives out the IP of the old host. So unfortunately one in every seven of you should have to use this hosts fix.
The hosts hack is backwards. Instead of:
http://www.skyos.org 85.214.66.177
the line should have the IP address first:
85.214.66.177 http://www.skyos.org
But even so, that doesn’t seem to be the problem. The host and dig commands each return the correct IP address for me, so I think the browser is getting it right also. But I’ve been having difficulty getting to the site for weeks.
Yes, it is my opinion that there is more to the networking problems then just a DNS issue. On IRC, however, Robert said he wants to get the DNS issues resolved first, before looking into other problems.
Adam
Awesome
I don’t know how they do it but I am glad to know that
there is another alternative to Windos, Mac and Linux.
SkyOS is looking solid and very promising. I will buy it.
Good job. 🙂
-2501
Why is SkyOS giving in to the Idiots, um Users, this much? If you read the forum you find lots of threads along the line of >>port this, port that, I want my favorite programming language ported<< all over the place.
At the same time some interesting projects like the Humble Framework appear to have died. I would like to see some work done on SkyOSes API documentation, a few tutorials on some basic apps (there are enough small games to write a tutorial for) and a place where native SkyOS projects can get hosted with source code on the main site (there appear to be a few FLOSS projects in various state of abandon on the forum).
C and C++ aren’t bad languages, and it would be nice to see some more native development instead of ports of the same old software that runs on every Unix clone out there. There was talk at one time to produce a native interface for the Gimp and other ported GTK+ applications, you don’t hear anything about that anymore.
Okay, I’ll disregard your offensive lanquage to answer some of your questions:
Deciding what to port and what not to port is up to Robert. I was against Wine because it doesn’t encourage native apps. This was one reason why Linux binary compatiabliity was dropped. But that’s Robert’s choice.
Humble Framework was one third party programmer who simply didn’t have time to continue it. Not much one can do there.
FLOSS programs in various states of abandon, which ones?
The source code to some example apps will do you zero good. There is a cross compiler for Windows but you still need SkyOS to do the actual work. If you buy the beta you get tons of source code examples on the CD.
Finally, the api documentation is in sad shape for two reasons: For a while it was in flux but now that it has stabillized the second reason comes up: We need more people document the APIs fully. Robert simply doesn’t have time to do everything.
>>Humble Framework was one third party programmer who
>>simply didn’t have time to continue it. Not much one
>>can do there.
I know what the Humble Framework is, some others in your community I’m not so sure of. It appears somebody started another C++ wrapper (SkyGI++) instead of continuing work on the Humble Framework. Something like this should be part of SkyOS proper, even if the source is open.
>>FLOSS programs in various states of abandon, which
>>ones?
Well for one there is the Humble Framework we are talking about [1] and there was the SkyFTP client somebody was working on and wanted to open source once he didn’t have the time anymore. I don’t know if that developer fallowed through though. I’m not sure but I believe there where some other source dumps in your forum for small games.
>>The source code to some example apps will do you zero
>>good. There is a cross compiler for Windows but you
>>still need SkyOS to do the actual work. If you buy the
>>beta you get tons of source code examples on the CD.
I’m not talking about source for example apps, I’m talking about tutorials for those apps. You had some people that where inexperienced developers, didn’t know C/C++ or where just interested in learning programming to produce native apps. It would be nice to make it easier for them to get started; in my opinion tutorials are a big part of that.
By the way I tried the cross compiler setup a long time ago, in my opinion it sucked.
>>Finally, the api documentation is in sad shape for
>>two reasons: For a while it was in flux but now that
>>it has stabillized the second reason comes up: We
>>need more people document the APIs fully. Robert
>>simply doesn’t have time to do everything.
You need more people period, not just for documenting the APIs but also to develop and port apps. I believe you have instituted the Beta Application for Developers to get more people? How’s that turning out for you?
You have Robert porting apps, porting programming languages and writing the OS, of course he doesn’t have enough time to also write the documentation but tell me who besides him knows SkyOS well enough to do that job?
You have some problems to solve and the large proportion of hollow headed fluff bunnies hopping around in your forum won’t be able to help you.
1: http://www.humble-programmer.com/skyos/humble/
every new exciting OS needs lots of quick old ports so that people have something to play with until the real stuff comes.
java apps on the other hand is something I could never understand.
I would also like to bring up that SkyOS API is not C++, but C. Yes, C. When you want to code a native GUI application for SkyOS, it must be done in C, as some programmers know, is horrible for GUI development. There are very few “native” applications for SkyOS for the reason that it’s so damn hard to develop for. That is why there is such demand to port Perl/Java/Python/C#/Ruby etc. to the system.
But realizing this, what is the advantage of SkyOS? None. Nothing. Nada. Is it fast? Heck no. It’s *very* slow. Firefox takes roughly 40 seconds to load on SkyOS. Is it stable? Nope. Regular applications regularly bring down the whole system, even ones developed by Jinnworks themselves. Thunderbird often crashes *the whole system* at Send/Rcive. Does it have alot of applications? Heck no. It consists of about ten of so featureless and broken “native” applications, and incomplete UNIX ports of 2 year old software. Good hardware support? If you even get SkyOS running natively outside of VMWare, you are one of the lucky few. Also, it has absolutely no video acceleration (runs in VESA mode), and poor support for things like USB Mice. Does it do anything revolutionary? Nope.
Of course, of course, Kelly will come here and say how I am all wrong and you shouldn’t listen to me. How SkyOS 5 is still a “beta” (it’s been beta for years), and how with SkyOS 5 it will become the best OS ever created. Thom will continue posting these articles hook, line, and sinker. Every time SkyOS gets some half implemented feature Linux or Windows had 10 years ago, you will see some elaborate article about it here. Then you will see the first three or so posts by the cult of personality. “Robert is so f**king amazing!” It will unfortunately continue, and people will continue to get sold snake oil.
Fact of the matter is, SkyOS *right now* takes a lot of memory, is slow, crashes very easily, supports almost no hardware, has very few applications, the native applications it has have very few features, and is hard to develop for. Kelly and Robert won’t tell you any of this.
@sirhomer:
Come on, stop lying, as I asked you multiple times already. Also, you still refuse to post any debug reports, if you are so upset with your problems, why not just report them so that they get fixed? (But maybe you just want to rant about SkyOS, which I have to say, seems to be so regarding your posts to this and the last SkyOS topics here on osnews.) Oh well,…
Dear Jinnworks representative,
I am here to expose the false information you and your cult of personality spout about the snake oil SkyOS.
Sincerly,
The Truth
lol
Robert: next thing to work on, Kelly needs a new sense of humour!
😉
sirhomer wrote:
–“Thom will continue posting these articles hook, line, and sinker. Every time SkyOS gets some half implemented feature Linux or Windows had 10 years ago, you will see some elaborate article about it here. Then you will see the first three or so posts by the cult of personality.
well, this is OSNews. and I for one think it’s more important for a site like this to put the spotlight on the more obscure operating systems out there rather than those who already get mainstream coverage.
>> Firefox takes roughly 40 seconds to load on SkyOS
Atleast its faster than firefox on windows
Let’s not forget that starting firefox is rather CPU intensive. For instance:
First start of firefox (SkyOS, AMD64 3000+) = 8sec
First start of firefox (SkyOS, Pentium 500) = 32sec
Good thing is that there is still huge optimization potential.
First start of Firefox (SkyOS, Turion 2.0Ghz) = 42 seconds
Yes, I know in the future SkyOS will be amazing and take over the world and everyone will be running SkyOS on their toasters and you’ll be a billionare and eventually glorious leader of Earth. But we are talking now, buddy.
Well, this is a start. Now maybe you just want to file a bug report with a debug log attached and this issue may be resolved very soon.
Yes, I know in the future SkyOS will be amazing and take over the world and everyone will be running SkyOS on their toasters and you’ll be a billionare and eventually glorious leader of Earth
Now if I just would be that optimistic…
Edited 2007-01-16 20:51
At present, we have no plans to port SkyOS to the toaster platform. We feel that this is a legacy platform, which is nearing the end of its life cycle.
However, we are very interested in the microwave oven platform, which has come into its own over that last few decades.
Lollllllllllllll Kelly !
If that doesn’t prove to the rest of the world that you do have humor, I am an he/she/it !
^_^
Cold start of Firefox – 12 seconds.
This is on an old beta version (6360) in *VMware*, with an AMD 2.0ghz.
Edited 2007-01-16 23:37
Naah.. on an AMD Sempron 2200+ (32bit) and with 1 GB ram Firefox starts in 2 seconds – and that’s without the preloader project installed.
SkyOS runs so slow because it has a lot of debugging code in it. I’m not covering anything up, that’s just the cold hard truth, buddy.
can you imagine if linux windows or mac os had this kind of rapid development?! this is amazing.
can you imagine if linux windows or mac os had this kind of rapid development?! this is amazing.
<ironic>Yes, it’s amazing how they didn’t reuse any code from the FLOSS crowd, like WINE or Kaffe for example…</ironic>
Java may be ported, but it is without AWT. Without AWT, you can’t run anything Java-wise that has a GUI. Also, the JIT doesn’t work so even console Java programs are very slow.
Wine also, can not run any GUI apps. Only console ones.
Also none of these features have been released to beta testers, so how well they work is speculation.
I will say that SkyOS is indeed not worth the money yet. It’s so far like a buggy version of Windows 95 with less features, and since it runs in debug mode, is very slow. Use your $30 elsewere. Like giving a donation to the Debian Foundation.
Edited 2007-01-16 18:52
SkyOS is released to Alpha testers more frequently than to Beta Testers, it’s for quality control of the features that are being added.
As far as I know, the only thing holding back something like Java from working with the current Beta is the threading fixes Robert made to the OS.
You really can’t expect it all to work from the get go (JIT, AWT, etc..) it will come just not all at once. It’s a monemental step forward and gives SkyOS a bright future for those who love to program in Java.
SkyOS does *not* run in Debug Mode, the only issue is it requires a little bit more ram because it’s lacks writing to a pagefile/swap partition. That’s something that will again, be fixed with time.
$30 ensures you this beta, the next beta, and all the way until the Final release.
Need to update the news with correct IP address. .. as the one provided only shows the Plesk front desk.
Sirhomer, In recent posts about Skyos you have been breaking down skyos a lot.
Since you seem to be a beta tester (don’t know under which name), why don’t you report the problems you are having so Robert or other people can help fix it.
You say Skyos is buggy, I didn’t see any bugreports from you lately.
Lack of GUI support for the recent ports? Yes, but we’re working on that. At this moment the GTK version of AWT is incompatible with skyos since it requires X…
Recent ports not released to beta testers? True, but the thing is that they won’t work in the current beta due to fixes in skyos that were needed to get it running. They will be in the next beta release, we’re not keeping it from you on purpose.
Fact of the matter is, SkyOS *right now* takes a lot of memory, is slow, crashes very easily, supports almost no hardware, has very few applications, the native applications it has have very few features, and is hard to develop for. Kelly and Robert won’t tell you any of this.
First of all, Skyos does not really use that much memory any more. A freshly booted system uses about 100MB. It’s true that SkyOS has memory leaks, but they are getting fixed if there are decent bugreports.
Second, same point from the beginning, if it is slow, crashes, … , why don’t you report about it so it can be fixed. Robert will be happy to fix issues you have, as long as you point out where the problem is. You are just sitting in a corner crying.
And about skyos using open source software…
Is that a crime? Every major OS has Mysql, gaim, apache, …
Does that mean SkyOS should not use that software? Didn’t think so, why try to recreate some buggy application if there is a great open source project. From my own experience, most open source projects are very happy if their software gets ported to yet another platform.
See you soon on the forum or IRC, I hope.
I mean…I mean….
<innocent>
There is a lot of BSD code in windows
(at least at a time , there was in the network stack…)
and what about the GIMP, open office (with Java), firefox, Thunderbird that I am using every day on my win xp machine…
Now, to be fair, Linux is much more worse than skyos :
Without FLOSS it wouldn’t run at all (when Skyos would) . Damn those that coded Gnu/linux : their stinky os only run because they stole good old open source code.
Now, comes Mac OS X… They used BSD code for their core components, kernel and stuff, didn’t they ?
And then they just closed the parts that they are really (beautifully) developping…nasty nasty Apple developpers…
</innocent>
Get real man. BSD and GPL licences were made to allow the code (write good code once and re-use it for the good of everyone) to be reused by others under specific legal conditions.
Now, don’t come and whine when those conditions are met and the code is reused…
perople nowadays…
>>There is a lot of BSD code in windows
>>(at least at a time , there was in the network
>>stack…)
>>and what about the GIMP, open office (with Java),
>>firefox, Thunderbird that I am using every day on my
>>win xp machine…
Yup there is probably BSD code in Windows, probably some other exFLOSS code too but neither did MS port the GIMP, OO.o or Firefox to windows nor did they install them on your PC. That was you buddy.
>>Now, to be fair, Linux is much more worse than skyos :
>>Without FLOSS it wouldn’t run at all (when Skyos
>>would) . Damn those that coded Gnu/linux : their
>>stinky os only run because they stole good old open
>>source code.
How did you get that bullshit idea in your head? How many commercial games have been ported to SkyOS? Is Adobe/Macromedia providing apps for you guys? Have you got Skype running on SkyOS?
If you are talking about DEs then let me tell you that in the Olden days you could buy CDE running on Motif running on a commercial X server if you where so inclined. The reason that you can’t do this anymore is that the FLOSS stuff is better.
You say the evil Linux is taking advantage of the other FLOSS running atop of it? Well buddy Linux is GPL and so are the GNU tools usually running on Linux.
So they are basically giving EVERYTHING back not just the modifications to the GNU tools.
>>Now, comes Mac OS X… They used BSD code for their
>>core components, kernel and stuff, didn’t they ?
>>And then they just closed the parts that they are
>>really (beautifully) developping…nasty nasty Apple
>>developpers…
Yup and Apple is evil for it, but still less evil then SkyOS since they give back more:
http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html
>>Get real man. BSD and GPL licences were made to allow
>>the code (write good code once and re-use it for the
>>good of everyone) to be reused by others under
>>specific legal conditions.
I can’t tell you what the spirit of the BSD license is (since we are talking about UC Berkeley here I would guess making the software available whilst covering ones ass) but the GPL was written to provide software freedom. Reuse, technical superiority, getting used and all that crap was spread by ESR and let me tell you he wrote neither the BSD license nor the GPL.
>>Now, don’t come and whine when those conditions are
>>met and the code is reused…
The one doing the whining is you, but not only do you whine you do so by dreaming up some bullshit. I’m beyond licensing; I would rather be worried about how SkyOS and Robert take care of the community they are building and what the community will do when Robert burns out.
But hey, it’s not my f–king problem if you guys get screwed.
Edited 2007-01-16 22:32
Ah, dude, I think Lakedaemon was being facetious. You missed the point of his(/her/its) post entirely as far as I can see…
Granted things like sarcasm and facetiousness often become difficult to spot when translated to the limited format of a forum post, but if people take the time to read and comprehend what people actually write in full before getting your knickers in a knot, we can all enjoy a nice flame-free read.
Edited 2007-01-16 22:31
You don’t need to “think” anything; the guy enclosed part of his post in tags. But let me ask how you would respond to an inflammatory remark if it is made “facetious”?
The comment was neither witty nor funny but rather irritating. Saying something with supposed humorous intent shouldn’t protect anything from scrutiny, especially not in writing.
Lol…
Man, the stuff between <innocent> and >/innocent> was irony… I never tried to make points, I just wanted to show things in a funny perspective with a ring of truth to it.
What always amazes me is that people deny SkyOS the right to legally and respectfully use GPL software
but they are never as agressiv towards windows, Mac os x, Linux (yes, linux has to comply to the GPL rules too), or other oses…
Another thing that amazes me is that people (I don’t say you did) tend to equal Linux and GPL, which is not true :
There is BSD code
There is GPL code
There is code under other licences.
Linux isn’t the gpl, it’s licensed under the GPL…it “belongs” to the gpl license…(lol, see if you can change linux’s license…)
And…
Gnu/Linux uses GPL code a lot (like 80 % of linux ? ), and BSD code (like 10% those are guesses) and other (free) code…
SKYOS uses no GPL code but (I might be wrong there) may use some Haiku/BSD licensed code, the apps that we can install upon it with the software store use GPL code or BSD…and (free) others
Now, the GPL code has NOT been written for linux.
Emacs and gcc have been written long before linux started to exist.
The GPL code has been written…to belong to the GPL.
Now, a lot of project (linux, windows, solaris, skyos, haiku, etc..) may use GPL under some legal condition.
Now, I don’t care what intent the GPL was written for.
As it was written, the GPL gained an existence of it’s own (that isn’t completely true to it’s original creator’s intent anymore…if it was, he wouldn’t try to promote GPLv3).
Now, I quite like the GPL (though I like the BSD much better) but I just hate Zealots (and GPL zealots in particular).
What is really nice with the free licences is the possibility to see the sources (and the fact that it’s free).
Now, please don’t try to force feed me the GPL. Thank you.
This is not FUD, nor flamewar-thrower.
Haiku OS is the direct competitor to skyOS, in my opinion.
Both OSes does have the same target audience.
What people don’t know is that some SkyOS code is directly taken from Haiku source repository… I saw that in a comment in http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/OpenBeOS
Haiku OS has these advantages over SkyOS:
-completely free to download, compile and run. Lots of VMWARE Images to try out the latest features (like the new net_server)
-binary compatibility with the “Divine Divinity” OS –> BEOS.
-extremely fast (IMHO, it beats SkyOS of large measures… latest news tell us about vectorized-optimized desktop icons)(maybe also that code will be “taken” for SkyOS uuummh, who knows..)
-lots of programs, drivers, ports from http://www.bebits.com
So, at the end, for me the “competition” is won by Haiky OS, even if its development is a bit slower and the whole os is less usable than skyos at the moment.
Haiku looks promising.
Yet, through Be-nary compatibility and Be-threads,
Haiku herited one of the Inherent “weakness” of Beos : it is difficult to port things to BeOS/Haiku.
Wanna bet with me, what Os will get open office 2.0 first ?
Haiku or SkyOS ?
Wanna bet with me, what Os will get open office 2.0 first ?
Haiku or SkyOS ?
Zeta has it, so… Haiku?
Haiku does have the disadvantage they are trying to just be like BeOS. So no locales, modern layout, multiuser, same look and UI, etc.
I think a lot of people, after waiting for R1 to finally come out will say “hmph no multi-user? forget it” Of course, that bothers me.
@arielb
locales – planned for future release
modern layout – please define.
multi-user – planned for future release
look & ui – heh. No matter what you do, someone won’t like it. XP is a good example – some people liked XP’s new look, others didn’t. Who is “right”? Personally, I think that our small tweaks to the R5 look are more than enough for R1, YMMV.
You listed 4 items that are critical to you. There are dozens of sets of “4 items”. If we promised to deliver them all before our first release, we would never get there. If you would prefer, wait for R3 before trying…
modern layout means at the very least, the GUI is font sensitive. SkyOS seems to have a much more advanced GUI system.
I agree with your approach but these other OS’s are trying to implement what they think is most important rather than do everything that BeOS did and only that. So, for example multi-user, which affects security, would have a higher priority than making sure the screensaver app works.
They are making decisions what users might want because they don’t have much of a community to begin with.
Haiku stays away from those debates because there are lots of people who already know and like BeOS. Why waste time debating when you have something that’s tried and trusted by at least enough people to get things started? But for a completely new OS, you have to figure everything out for yourself
Edited 2007-01-17 05:10
“modern layout means at the very least, the GUI is font sensitive.”
You mean stuff like what is implemented in the *Layout* files here ?
http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/haiku/haiku/trunk/src/kits/interface/
One of the great things about the current state of skyos is that it absolutely does not care about backwards compatibility :p
You made a nice application for build XXXX and it doesn’t work in build XXXX+y, well, go fix it!
Backwards compatibility is something that I think hurts some other operating systems in certain areas.
For example Linux, why do they keep supporting the old open sound system? Dump it, allow only alsa in the next release and force devs finally to update their software to make use of the new/improved features.
Have the people of alsa/arts/esd sit together and make it uniform and working out of the box, on every system
it’s why linux still uses x windows and aros still doesn’t have memory protection. I certainly hope that haiku doesn’t turn into another aros.
In all fairness, darkness, any reasonably decent distribution will have audio setup for the user, out of the box, without the user having to worry about if he or she is using alsa/oss/esd/arts. I certainly haven’t had to worry about it in a long time.
Compare this to SkyOS which is missing drivers for lots of audio chipsets 🙂
Adam
I got my USB microphone working one time with Ubuntu (not sure how), and it hasn’t worked since.
For example Linux, why do they keep supporting the old open sound system? Dump it, allow only alsa in the next release and force devs finally to update their software to make use of the new/improved features.
Because ALSA is Linux-only, but OSS support is widely available. Until you get ALSA working on BSDs and numerous other Unix systems with OSS support, supporting *only* OSS leads to Linux lock-in. GNOME and KDE run on Unix-like systems, not on Linux, and such lock-in would be hard to sell.
Because ALSA is Linux-only, but OSS support is widely available.
ok, didn’t think of that for a moment
And do you have a link to this? I dont see anything about it anywhere.
@Robert
I wouldn’t beta test your operating system if you gave me $100 to do it.
That works out well because we don’t have $100 to give you to beta test.
… try making something as functional as SkyOS as quickly as it has been developed. I’m not saying SkyOS is great, and I’m not saying any other OS should rule the world, but one thing _is_ for certain: Try writing an OS (I know I have), and you will definitely appreciate the work that Robert and the rest of the SkyOS contributors have put in. By the way, it’s me… NoorulIslaam
Nice to see you all, haiku guys