“Having been raised on DOS and the early generations of Windows, I rediscovered that sense of excitement in a pure computing experience when I first tried other Linux versions over the years. However, they required a steep learning curve and caused too much frustration with setup and obscure command-line options. Not so with Ubuntu Linux.”
Not for the general population anyway.
1) Lack of critical applications.
2) Lack of critical drivers.
Linux is a great OS. I use Linux at work, and at home. I even have a weenie comptia linux certification.
But, I don’t kid myself about Linux being ready for the desktop – it’s not.
I don’t think that either 1 or 2 are the real problems. The real problems with Linux (and i’m an Ubuntu user at home), is that there is no standard way of doing things, like installing software. Look at all the problems that adobe is having with the flash player for linux, for example.
Choice is good, if it is justifiable. I think that at linux, we have too much choice, and that confuses, and makes things difficult.
>>The real problems with Linux (and i’m an Ubuntu user at home), is that there is no standard way of doing things, like installing software.<<
Very good point. It’s crazy isn’t it? Linux desperately needs apps and drivers, but all the OSS community wants to do is create *hundred* of distros, which further frangment linux’s already tiny market-share.
I can say Ubuntu is not ready because of the things they won’t include. That’s a far sight from saying Linux is not ready, it is. There are distro’s such as PCLinuxOS, Mepis and others that make it more than ready.
Ubuntu is most definitely not a replacement, but those others I mentioned are pretty darn close.
Edited 2006-12-05 01:03
Not for the general population anyway.
Its ready for my desktop. It is ready for most peoples desktop.
OK it’s not ready for the dedicated Gamer.
By and large most of the hardware driver problems have been solved, but I guess there is some stuff that that has win drivers and can’t be got to work with Linux but for most people drivers aren’t a problem.
Lack of critical applications. Well it depends what your critical applications are. I have everything I need. I also have one critical application that really only works on Linux. Ghemical the graphical front end for the MOPAC and MPQC quantum chemistry programs (there is one Win port but it is shit). So I’m afraid that Widows doesn’t have one of my critical applications so it clearly is not ready for the desktop.
I am not sure about a Windows replacement, but Ubuntu was a Mandriva and a Suse replacement on MY desktop.
Bear in mind that Mandriva Linux replaced Windows on my main desktop two years ago.
What you need to understand is there is no one single defeination of a “desktop”. What works brilliantly for me, Ubuntu and automatix, might be inadequate for someone else.
Nice, simple introduction to Ubuntu Linux without getting into the techno-babble of X-servers, kernel versions, or Debian heritage. Also, I happen to agree: Ubuntu is a great first choice for home or small business users looking to escape the Microsoft monopoly.
Why was this guy modded down? I mean, come on, there is no equivalent to Photoshop (GIMP and Krita are in no way a replacement). Same goes for drivers. I still can’t use my Canon camera, my Epson scanner and my multimedia keyboard on Ubuntu while I can on Windows thanks to the vendor driver.
I HAVE USED UBUNTU.
It’s not for anybody. I works for you but it’s not for me. No thanks, and stop spreading false statements.
I agree and that is especially true for Ubuntu.
Don’t get me wrong, it is one of my distros of choice, but it doesn’t even handle very common setups very good.
One example, many people have more than one soundcard, usually because they have onboard sound and a better pci soundcard. Ubuntu does not have an graphical method of setting one as the default audio. If setup chooses the wrong, you will have to do it manual, and that is not pretty.
Linux is not ready for joe user. If that is a bad thing might be arguable.
I wonder what that “Default sound card” option in gnome’s audio properties might be for? I’m pretty sure it’s not for setting the default sound card, like when you have a pci and an onboard soundcard.
Yeah, and most people who have onboard sound, but a PCI soundcard usually disable the onboard sound within the Bios. Windows has issues with this more so than Linux does.
Not true. Have Soundblaster and some Nvidia onboard soundcard. It was easy to configure via Sound settings. The setting is, well, “hidden” as it is not on the first “screen” but on the second one (sound events and stuff). Did it and it works like a charm. Have Edgy.
I was also surprised I am able to use the second sound card for skype while all other sound events use the soundblaster card. I could not set it up that way in some previous version and some other distros but was able to do it in the latest Ubuntu.
I mean, come on, there is no equivalent to Photoshop (GIMP and Krita are in no way a replacement).
This argument is pure bullshit. Is photoshop really a fundamental desktop application? Of course not. How many windows users use photoshop let alone consider a multiple hundred of dolar application to be vital for their day to day usage?
Same goes for drivers. I still can’t use my Canon camera, my Epson scanner and my multimedia keyboard on Ubuntu while I can on Windows thanks to the vendor driver.
Funny thing is I have a Canon camera and it works right out of the box in ubuntu since the 5.04 days. But regarding that “oh hardware X doesn’t work”, you should know that the lack of hardware support isn’t due to some sort of linux underachievement. That problem is due to the the hardware companies not releasing any linux driver and hardware specifications. Sometimes it is even due to poorly designed hardware. For example, there is absolutely no need for a digital camera to use some special taylored, obscure protocol to transfer data. So where in fact is linux at fault for the hardware companies not complying with the standards or supplying their own drivers?
“…you should know that the lack of hardware support isn’t due to some sort of linux underachievement. That problem is due to the the hardware companies not releasing any linux driver and hardware specifications. Sometimes it is even due to poorly designed hardware. For example, there is absolutely no need for a digital camera to use some special taylored, obscure protocol to transfer data. So where in fact is linux at fault for the hardware companies not complying with the standards or supplying their own drivers?”
It is entirely irrelevant whose fault the lack of drivers for Linux is – the point is that there are numerous devices which are not adequately supported on the Linux platform, and this lack of driver support will inevitably result in slow uptake of the platform to people who use devices that need decent driver support.
Of course, Linux would go a long way towards attracting companies to write Linux drivers if Linux developers were to give it a stable API/ABI so that people can write binary drivers that will work with any Linux build.
“It is entirely irrelevant whose fault the lack of drivers for Linux is”
Not when you’re choosing which hardware to buy. At that point what do you plump for, the piece of hardware that’s well supported or the one that’s barely supported?
I also prefer the integrated drivers that come with Linux distros. Have you seen the crap that gets installed with Windows drivers? Annoying printer drivers that speak to you when printing; slapped together VB applications with atrotious GUIs.
“Of course, Linux would go a long way towards attracting companies to write Linux drivers if Linux developers were to give it a stable API/ABI so that people can write binary drivers that will work with any Linux build.”
That wouldn’t help with drivers for the platforms Linux supports. We’d probably have as little hardware supported under 64 bit as Windows does. I’m running on 64 bit and all my hardware works (scanner, camera, mp3 player, removable devices) and I didn’t have to seek out a single driver CD. And most importantly it’s all well integrated.
You are absolutely right. I don’t care whose fault it is….I get real put out because everyone seems to think I am made of money…just go buy a new one that is compatible….wish I could. I have a number of hardware items gathering dust because they just don’t work with Linux or OSX…..aaaaarrrrgggh!!
GIMP is most definitely adequate to replace Photoshop.
Anyone who says anything different is a hack with little skill in graphics/design.
GIMP has lacked color separation (= no go for publishers) for a long time now…
It should come in the next major release though…
You obviously have never worked in a graphics
shop. Gimp does not even come close
to Photoshop – unless your just making little
bitty web pictures. Color seperations is just
one thing, what about multiple color spaces?
What about industrial strength plugins for
participation in JDF workflows?
Does GIMP even work on the Mac, cause no one
in the industry uses Linux.
I DO work in graphics and color separation is a POST process. You don’t design a color separation.
I suppose I should say, GIMP is Photoshop’s equal when CREATING art (or better… actually GIMP is more powerful).
If you are:
A) Creating some type of original art
B) Creating a composition
C) Adjusting photos (before POST, i.e. during design, tweaking, before publishing)
Lack of “industrial strength” plugins is exactly what real artists don’t care about.
Now publishing, sure, GIMP needs work there. But when Photoshop is used heavily for raster art, textures, etc. and GIMP can do that easily as well.
Yes, GIMP does run on a Mac. It’s built with GTK, which is a bit alien on Mac OS X.
Edited 2006-12-04 22:06
Many people who use (and pirate) Photoshop are *not* graphics professionnal who do print work. In fact, I’d say the majority of Photoshop users fall outside of that category.
It’s like saying that Premiere is useless because professionnal editors use Final Cut Pro or Avid (or high-end stuff like Piranha).
The fact is that Gimp/Krita are very adequate PS replacements for a majority of users. Pixel is also a good (albeit non-free) alternative.
gimpshop
http://www.gimpshop.net/
macosX universal binary.
That problem is due to the the hardware companies not releasing any linux driver and hardware specifications.
Fair enough. You agree with me that hardware support is poor on Linux, be it Linux’s fault or hardware vendor’s. That doesn’t make any difference for the end user. Be honnest.
Windows has the same issue. There are plenty of drivers that work in Windows 95 that have not Windows 2000 equivalent, just as there are plenty of drivers that work in Window 2000 but have no Windows XP equivalent, just as there are plenty of drivers that work in Window XP but have no Windows Vista equivalent, just as there plenty of drivers that work on Windows but have no Mac OSX equivalents, just as there are plenty of Solaris drivers that have no Windows equivalent.
As always, when you pick an OS, you’ll need to select the hardware that works best for that OS. Windows, Mac, and Solaris users have it a bit easier since OEMs preselect the hardware that works best for the OS they preinstall, but (Windows users at least) still need to deal with the hardware issue during OS upgrade.
One positive thing about Linux is that most drivers that work with it are preinstalled — no messing with “Windows drivers disks”, and old drivers are rarely ever obsoleted, so you can have more confidence that an OS upgrade won’t suddenly turn your old hardware into a paperweight.
Could you please talk about Linux without resorting to weasel words?
What models Canon camera and Epson scanner do you have? I have a Powershot A610 and Epson 1650 that work fine.
Photoshop is not a good example of a desktop application since it’s aimed at professional users. The only ones that would be using it for typical desktop use would have had a) a lot of money to blow b) committed copy right infringement or c) got an education discount on it because they’re in Communications et al. For the typical desktop case of minor photo retouching, GIMP is better than good enough.
As for the lack of support for certain proprietary hardware devices, blame the vendors. Better yet, stop buying hardware from them.
if you cant use your canon camera, have you tried ufraw? it’s a gimp plugin that lets you read raw files. My pentax *ist D (DSLR) works great in ubuntu. ufraw imports my raw files, and lets me visually adjust anything i want.
Also, Gimp is great. If you think it sucks then you need to buy a book or something. Honestly it’s not that hard, only took me about a week to get comfortable in it when leaving photoshop. Now i prefer gimp because it just seems easier to use. My Wacom tablet works better in ubuntu than it did in windows no thanks to crappy vendor drivers.
Please post the specific models of the hardware you claim doesn’t work if you want to be credible.
Second, if you plan to use an operating sytem, you simply buy hardware that is supported by the operating system.
Third, most Canon cameras are expensive. I am sure you can afforad a $5 card reader with multi-format support that will work with all cameras.
Fourth, I doubt that you paid for photoshop, but in the unlikely event that you did, selling your epson scanner on ebay and purchasing a compatible one should be no problem, assuming that the thousands of other applications and the security and stability of linux are worth it to you.
Nonetheless, I have very strong doubts about the credibilty of your post. It is vague so that people cannot pin you down on the specifics.
Good luck.
So did I, until it couldn’t connect to my wireless network or play .wmv files….
This is pretty disapointing indeed. Cause this would mean ubuntu is only on par with windows in that regard, where you cannot play some codecs (divx/ogg) out of the box.
Having to manually install a driver for a wlan card really reminds me of windows too.
I’m sure linux can do better than that.
So did I, until it couldn’t connect to my wireless network or play .wmv files….
My brother works for a company that sells wirelsss mesh hotspot servers based on kernel 2.4.x.
I watch .wmv files on my Slackware box.
Lucky you aren’t the only computer user in the world. The features in Linux would then go undiscovered.
“Having to manually install a driver for a wlan card really reminds me of windows too.”
I have a little game for you. Try to spend a month in linux, just trying out software. And never launch the terminal.
Good luck.
I’d probably have just about as much luck as I would attempting to do the same in Windows.
What’s the big fear of using a terminal anyway?
The command prompt is next to useless in Windows, so unless you’re the rare bird who would still rather use DOS or CP/M than a GUI, the terminal or console might look hella scary.
I love that the terminal gives power uses a quicker way of doing things. Day to day tasks should have GUI front-ends, though.
“What’s the big fear of using a terminal anyway?”
Using a terminal requires learning a number of often arcane and unintuitive commands before you can do anything useful. In contrast, a well designed GUI is entirely intuitive, and requires minimal training to use. Furthermore, once a user has learned the basic principles by which a GUI works, they can reapply that skill to unfamiliar applications and tasks without having to learn anything new.
Command lines do make certain tasks faster than a GUI using a mouse for a skilled CL user, but the same, if not greater, speed and efficiency can be achieved in a GUI by using shortcut keys. This gives the user not only a quick way to perform tasks, but gives them visual feedback that they cannot possibly get from a command line.
A command line is a primitive relic of a computing age where machines lacked the power to generate a decent user interface.
The test of how good a user interface, whether it is a command line or a GUI, is how quickly an untrained novice can learn to use it without any instruction or guidance. Obviously, a good GUI will win hands down. The other test is how productive a skilled user is once they have mastered the interface. Again, a GUÏ with well thought out shortcut keys will win hands down over a CL, due to the fact that the user gains valuable visual feedback.
I do agree that the command line is very powerful. But, I like most don’t want to have to learn all of those commands. I like a nice GUI. I use the CLI as a means to do things that are difficult or impossible with the GUI. I use it as a means to really change things…but, not as an everyday interface. I like the power. I like apt-get, but synaptic sure is much easier for most things.
1. I don’t know how you think people use a CLI, but the very thought of attempting to build a GUI for the things I do most frequently gives me shivers.
2. If the user is unwilling to do a little learning outside their comfort zone, why are they switching from their current OS in the first place?
“1. I don’t know how you think people use a CLI, but the very thought of attempting to build a GUI for the things I do most frequently gives me shivers.
2. If the user is unwilling to do a little learning outside their comfort zone, why are they switching from their current OS in the first place?”
I have no idea what you are using your computer for, but the thought of editing a 64 track Sonar composition with a command line makes me feel nauseous. Or any other of the highly visual things I use my computer for for that matter – most of the things I use my computer for would be impossible to do with a command line.
The key word there is a little learning. It is one thing to learn the minor differences between two GUI based OSes, it is another thing altogether to learn several tens or hundreds of obscure commands just to operate their computer.
…most of the things I use my computer for would be impossible to do with a command line.
I wasn’t suggesting otherwise.
What I was suggesting was that the things we typically do with the command line are still done that way for good reason.
Take, for example, the simple, everyday scripting of the type done by sysadmins everywhere. I can’t even begin to imagine how inefficient that would be if a CLI didn’t exist.
it is another thing altogether to learn several tens or hundreds of obscure commands just to operate their computer.
That, right there, is a big part of the problem
The user jumps way ahead of themselves and gets all hung up on numbers of what they might learn.
Actually, that’s completely wrong.
Studies have shown that command line utilities are easier to use and more efficient than GUI interfaces are.
Command line is just more intimidating to newbs, at first glance.
Really? What studies? For some tasks, that may be true, but I would like to see someone efficiently use a commandline to edit photos, movies, manipulate spreadsheets, write documents, create and edit music, play games, 3D models, browse the web – ie, all the tasks that 95% of computer users do. I am not talking about system administrators or hackers – normal computer users interact with highly visual things that require feedback that a command line simply cannot provide.
If like me, you are mildly dyslexic, command lines are a nightmare.
I don’t know what you are doing with your computer that you find command lines easier to use, but nothing I use a computer for would be made easier with a command line.
Unless you can back that up with some links to the studies you claim to support your case, I can only dismiss them as utter bullshit.
Edited 2006-12-06 07:54
I can barely spend a day in Windows XP without using the cmd prompt (or the Run dialog). How do you expect me to spend a month in Linux without using a terminal? Especially since it comes with such a usable shell compared to cmd.exe.
🙂
Why, oh why, oh why, are people so terrified of the terminal/command prompt?
I just recently became aware of a distro called Linux Mint which…
“…is an Ubuntu-based distribution whose goal is to provide a more complete out-of-the-box experience by including browser plugins, media codecs, support for DVD playback, Java and other components. It is compatible with Ubuntu software repositories.”
http://linuxmint.com/
Obviously, some might not like proprietary software getting thrown in. But those who just want something that works will appreciate it. It’s basically the equivalent of Ubuntu + Automatix with a more pleasing default theme (IMO).
Sounds just like what I’m looking for. I could care less about whether something is open source or proprietary. I want my computer to run and do the tasks I need it to do. I’d rather have a complete distro that runs out of the box then have to load up Ubuntu, go to ubuntuguide.org and follow the 30 steps listed there just to get the machine to play music and video.
GNU/Linux does pretty well on the desktop after the hardware is all set up. Sometimes this may require some Googling when certain things don’t work out of the box.
Gaming can sometimes be a PITA when you can’t get Wine, Crossover, or Cedega to run your favorate Windows games. Exa: I cannot get The Sims Deluxe Edition to play. 🙁
I’ve been dual-booting Windows and GNU/Linux for over a year now. The best, most friendly distributions can serve as a replacement IMHO.
Slackware, Gentoo? OK… maybe not so well. I’m sure thats obvious though.
/me laughs at the thought of Granny compiling a custom kernel for her Slack or Gentoo install.
I have a dual boot Windows XP/Ubuntu in my laptop.
Everything in Ubuntu works right out of the box including wireless(Prism chipset). I have troubles connecting to wireless networks from XP though!
It’s a clear sign that Windows XP is not ready for the desktop!
rehdon
Dang trigger happy mods. Please don’t mod down things you disagree with. The points made in the posts above were very valid, pointing them out is not a crime.
The entire idea of free software is openness. If we are not open in discussing faults or problems, there’s little point.
Microsoft and most other closed software vendors aren’t willing to discuss their problems openly, for fear of their bottom line. If we can discuss what’s wrong with Linux, what needs to change, etc. without fear of retribution (heated debate != retribution) we stand a much better chance of changing people’s minds…we’re one step ahead of Microsoft because we actually discuss issues rather than stifling dissident voices.
Let me start off by asking this simple question. Ubuntu Linux is an ideal Windows replacement for who? Most businesses that I have seen had one or two proprietary applications that just simply can’t be found on linux. These applications are needed to help the business run.
Home users might be able to get the simple tasks done like web browsing and email, but really who does just that with their computers? It goes beyond just writing a letter to someone. They want games, online and offline. They want to use those 3rd party applications on the download of the day site.
As for me, I just reinstalled Ubuntu over the weekend on my laptop. Not all was peachy like the article described. I wanted to install Ubuntu onto a specific partition that I had. Ubuntu did not want to install even after setting the partition as /. Instead it wanted to install over another linux distro I had installed. After about 20 minutes of toying with the partitioner I finally got it to reformat the partition I wanted it to and then install.
I pretty much agree that GNU/Linux has some hardware support issues. That, however, is not anyones fault but the hardware manufacturer. This is what happens when monopolies arn’t in your favor.
If something doesn’t seem to work for you, try Googling for answers or asking for help in forums and/or chatrooms.
If all else fails, try submitting driver/feature requests to the appropriate project page and hope support arrives in a future release.
The situation would be much better if GNU/Linux were either pre-installed and pre-configured, on machines or if users did basic research before buying perhiperhals they intend to use on GNU/Linux.
My two cents.
Edited 2006-12-04 20:57
I have one advice to people who complain about hardware support. Don’t buy whatever hardware you see in the store, research and it will be all good. If your hardware won’t work with Linux just wait until you get another upgrade or until you buy a new computer, nobody is forcing you but it doesn’t hurt to check if hardware is well supported. In Windows I have to look for my CDs with drivers or hunt for the drivers on the web, in Ubuntu it just works. Nothing is perfect but saying that Linux has poor driver support is just unfair.
The problem is not that there are no drivers. There ARE drivers. But it’s just so f*cking complicated to get anything working. If it works out of the box (often the case these days) then it’s perfect. But if it doesn’t you’re speaking of hours if not days trying to get drivers to work.
Just have a look at the forums out there. It looks like 80% of the forums with the word linux in them is about trying to install software! I mean, get a mac: put the application on the disk and it’s done. Linux has 20 different standards for everything, none being better enough than the other to justify unification.
Macs cost a pretty penny in my corner of the woods. Bit more than name brand PCs, but it’ll be worth it when I get one in a year or so. Meanwhile, I stick to using apt repositories for installing software in Ubuntu, with a little help from Automatix2 and EasyUbuntu (need to update the GPG keys for a couple of servers, though).
I’m waiting for good Core 2 Duo chipset support in Ubuntu or Fedora before getting a new laptop. Desktop, I could just go with a 975X chipset mobo.
I love this OS…So much less trouble than windows…
Just open synaptic and install whatever you need…Oh wait! None of that mp3/encrypted dvd/flash/java/etc… stuff everyone needs!
Oh really? What’s this? http://getautomatix.com
Oh but if you do that than you don’t follow all that FOSS/gpl/gnu/etc… philosophy (also known as crap)…
Guess what, I use Ubuntu caus its easier to install and run and less of a hassle to maintain than windows is. I don’t care about the gpl or microsoft eula
In the end, windows sucks ubuntu rules (licensing/monetary issues aside).
Oh yeah, im an ubuntu fanboy/troll that hates microsoft caus everything they do is crap
I really need you guys to tell me if I forgot anything in order to start a flame war
Just open synaptic and install whatever you need
Yeah, but don’t forget to open the terminal and type sudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list, then uncomment the multiverse repos and do apt-get update
lol…i forgot about that
I guess thats why i cant write howtos
Actually in Edgy you can unlock multiverse repositories from “Software sources” in System->Administration. It still doesn’t have win32codecs and libdvdcss2 so Automatix might be handy for users new to Linux.
<blockquote>Yeah, but don’t forget to open the terminal and type sudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list, then uncomment the multiverse repos and do apt-get update
</blockquote>
Why?
Use Settings -> Repositories and just check them in.
I don’t know about a flame war, pretty much everything you said was undeniably true.
Even the windows fanbois can’t deny that.
Ubuntu is a good – but not ideal replacement. I’m delighted that the author had such a positive experience (as I have) and I’m sure that many converts will also have good experiences too, but I still dual boot into Windows as there are some things that I just can’t do in Ubuntu. Although I found setting up my Wifi, etc OK, I did have to use the command line and edit config files, and have had to for many tasks. Most new users are going to have some learning curve.
On the plus side getting more familiar with the command line is no bad thing and I don’t have to worry about viruses etc. Ubuntu is probably also a good choice for the user who knows next to nothing and just uses his box for email and typing as long as it setup first OK.
I’m sure that Linux and Ubuntu is ready for the desktop, but a little more polish and improved GUI tools can only be a good thing. Oh and lets not make it too difficult set up Nvidia etc drivers even if they can’t be included on the CD and I see no harm in a little eye candy like Compiz or Beryl.
I think Mandriva and SUSE offer a better experience for those who wish to avoid the command-line as much as possible.
Windows isn’t for everyone, and neither is Linux!
This is the point, the “year of Linux on the desktop” came and went, it’s just all a matter of Who’s desktop your looking at.
I’ve got friends who swear by Mac’s, so I get a mac, you know what? to me, it’s the most unwieldy piece of garbage OS I’ve ever touched, whenever I use it, I feel like I’m fighting to get my work done. Does this mean Mac Isn’t ready for the desktop? NO! it means it’s not ready for MY desktop! I love me some Linux, I run it on just over half of my machines, but it’s not for everyone. if there was a “for everyone” everyone would use it, and innovation would die. Windows has it’s positives and negatives, as does Linux. when everyone realizes that, the world will be a great place.
Until then, who gives a rats ass what OS you’re running as long as you can get your work done, if you paid 600 dollars for Windows Vista Ultimate and you can do you’re work, awesome, if you installed Ubuntu and you get your work done, awesome, if you installed Linspire and you can get you’re work done AWESOME.
~DevilotX
exactly. These stupid arguments over who’s OS is desktop ready are getting old.
Having just installed Ubuntu last week, I will say that Ubuntu is ready for the least-experienced desktop users who simply need a web browser and e-mail, and it is ready for power users who know how (and are willing) to tweak their systems until they are working satisfactorily. For everyone else, Linux, even a great distro like Ubuntu, is not ready for the desktop.
Yes, this is just my opinion….but there is a good chance that I’m right.
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/
I just checked ubuntu forums website(04dec06) and quite appaled by shear number of novice ubuntu users BEGGING for help.
General help- 2213 pages of forum
Hardware Laptops — 986 pages
Install and Upgrades– 1101
Network wireless — 675
Desktop environments — 2292
Multimedia video — 414 pages
This forum is full of pages after pages problems experienced by users. Literally something is not working for each and every user. And many of the solutions suggested by Ubuntu techies are using command line and intricate editing of files.
If ubuntu is so user friendly replacement, forums will not be filled up with problems.
Thousands of pages in forum doesn’t indicate popularity of ubuntu, but clearly the mess being cleaned up by users…
(moderators: if you trick and give -2 score to this post, it may disappear from default view of -1 to most viewers, but at least someone will notice it, before your clicks and tricks, thanks)
Edited 2006-12-04 21:27
This forum is full of pages after pages problems experienced by users. Literally something is not working for each and every user. And many of the solutions suggested by Ubuntu techies are using command line and intricate editing of files.
If ubuntu is so user friendly replacement, forums will not be filled up with problems.
You know… There are such things as good metrics, and thoughtful analysis of situations. But, posting that isn’t any more useful than me pointing out Windows support forums with tons of posts. And those people aren’t “new” to Windows, like many of the Ubuntu ones were.
Forums are a support mechanism designed for people new to Ubuntu to find help. Just as the Windows support forums you see are there to provide help to Windows users needing help. I don’t suppose you would draw the same negative conclusion in regards to Windows.
Don’t compare absolute number of forum pages windows users occupy because
(windows user forum pages /number of users) <<<<<< (ubuntu user forum pages/number of ubuntu users)
Why don’t you google for “Windows problem please help.”
Oh yeah, only around 100 million posts there.
Or how about looking at the billions of dollars being spent fixing (or mistakenly replacing) Windows computers that have been completely owned by spyware, viruses, Microsoft, Office, really cool drivers, etc.
If you are known to be good with computers, you know what I am talking about.
Stupid people who use computers eventually require the help of their more intelligent friends. This is true no matter what OS/Hardware/Program you bring up.
Edited 2006-12-04 22:10
Maybe you should email the ubuntu support forums admins. Their support forums are abused for support questions.
I’m posting this from Ubuntu. It’s the first Linux distro that I’ve ran in about 5 years (OpenBSD had some hardware issues on this laptop
).
It’s seriously the easiest thing to use next to my Mac. One annoyance is the lack of an integrated wireless AP browser. Also, it did have some issues with integrated wifi (Broadcom are bastards) but luckily I had an Atheros based card laying around. Sound doesn’t work through the speakers, but I don’t care. This laptop is for work, not play.
IMO, Ubuntu is good enough for many ‘power’ users (ex: anyone reading osnews), as long as it’s run on well supported hardware. For the general public, here are a few of the gotchas:
1) Integrated Wifi browser. A must for non-technical laptop users on the go.
2) Media plugins. A tough one to solve since it requires the use of proprietary plugins. Commercial distros are but suited to solving this issue. Note: I believe that this is becoming less of a problem due to the trend of streaming media via flash ala Youtube.
3) External media player support. I haven’t tried jumping through any hoops to get my iPod to work (I’ve got a mac after all). In reality though, it should be built in for newbies.
It will be a long time before Ubuntu (or any other distro) will be suitable for *everyone*. Most of it is due to lack of software that they rely on (ex: photoshop). The simple fact of the matter is that most users are unwilling to switch the apps that they have invested so much time/money in learning. This mostly applies to business/professional users, not home users.
For those who both (1) like how Ubuntu aims for the beginner and (2) wish to be free of binary blobs, check out the Ubuntu derivative gNewSense:
http://www.gnewsense.org/
gNS is the freest GNU/Linux distro available right now. Their latest 1.0 release installed easily on my laptop with no driver difficulties. gNS is now the de facto reference distro for the four freedoms defined in
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
One way its freeness is being achieved is via the license auditing of its software packages by its users. Thus, legal implications of a lot of software will be clarified somewhat–ever more relevant in light of recent controversial patent agreements.
Another distinctive contribution of gNS is the greater knowledge of which hardware can run on a 100% free system. Note that gNS has cleaned its kernel packages of binary blobs to an extent unmatched by any other operating system.
Perhaps you are so skilled that Ubuntu feels beneath you. Look at the bigger picture: anyone that skilled will realize that the “deadweight” is easily avoidable. Moreover, sophistication can be more than technical: there are other areas one can improve, and I suggest at least browsing the mailing list archives to learn more.
Edited 2006-12-04 21:33
Ubuntu is great. I do most of my work on it, and since Photoshop 6 is what I’m used to, and it runs pretty good under Crossover, it gets me through.
As for the general population, face it… people are lazy, and usually swap their computer knowledge at work if something isn’t working, or if they like something. People just want to buy that crappy $29 Lexmark all in one printer and use the 5 foot 6 pack that someone bought them for Christmas.
So… in my opinion, neither Linux, nor Macintosh systems are ready for everyone.
However, if you are one of the people who grew up using DOS, and older systems (C64, etc) then yeah, Linux is probably for you. You understand the value of buying good accessories and are willing to pay the extra buck or 5 for something compatible.
My linux box has a Plextor DVD Burner, Sound Blaster Live!, NVidia Video card, and a pretty good network card… it all works perfectly, and I usually have more luck plugging friends digital cameras into the linux box to get photos than with the windows machine… go figure.
So, to end my novel… Linux is not for the general public.
A lot of you seem to think Linux isn’t ready for desktop use. I’d argue that it would depend on whos desktop. For someone like myself that was willing to learn all the ins and outs of Linux, it has become a very valuable tool both at home and at work. With the openness of the system and the plethora of software that comes standard, I’d be almost lost these days without my Linux machines. And granted it did take me years of blood sweat and tears to get to the point where I’m at today. But just because it may not be worth it to you doesn’t mean the journey isn’t worth it to some.
Then again, I’d also like to point out that setting up a Linux machine for the purposes of web browsing and checking email is pretty much brain dead simple these days and not much different from Windows from an end user perspective. Case in point, my mom has used a Linux desktop just fine for years now.
Edited 2006-12-04 22:34
Quote [not much different from Windows from an end user perspective. Case in point, my mom has used a Linux desktop just fine for years now.]
The way some of my relations get their PCs infested with spyware, I think Linux will be a whole load better. The next time I have to deal with CWS they’re getting Ubuntu!
Exactly right. My mom’s Linux machine remains as pristine as the day I installed it. Too bad I can’t say the same about my wife’s Windows machine. I have her on a limited user account with Firefox, spybot, avg antivirus, spyware blaster, ad aware, hijack this, windows defender, and somehow she still manages to get hit with spyware and viruses. Not only that the malware has even managed to get into the admin account somehow. From my perspective, as the guy that has to maintain the computers, Linux wins hands down.
Use Service Pack 2 and IE 7 on her PC or Vista and you won’t have those problems.
A lot of people that have issues like this have an old version of I.E. with an old version of the OS. (Service Pack 1 or even before that).
It’s really not that hard dude. It’s worse trying to get anything else to work in Linux (which is a major problem).
Keeping Windows XP up to date is more trouble than maintaining Ubuntu. Too many reboots (Linux distros only need to reboot when you update the kernel).
Christ man. You think I’d don’t patch my Windows machines? I’d have to be insane. And IE 7 just recently came out by the way.
And again, I’ve spent years on Linux becoming quite an expert, so no, I’ve had no problems getting Linux to suit my needs for quite some time now.
I’m curious though. What are you refering to when you say “trying to get anything else to work”
Maybe it is just me….but, I have not found Ubuntu very friendly, intuitive, nor easy to get along with. I tried again this weekend to install on a Thinkpad R40, no joy. It sorta works. Damn Small Linux works so much easier. Ubuntu refuses to allow simple tasks, that other distros allow, like apt-get…try setting up new repositories…..aaaaarrrrgghh. Try installing stuff from a CD….great frustration. I use Kanotix on my desktops. My new laptop is an Apple. OSX is the direction that Linux seems to be headed into. I think DSL is a very good start, especially when you can install as a Debian system. Ubuntu is not ready for everyday users. However, I did set up a Xandros 3.0 system for a friend who is barely computer literate and she is doing just fine. W/O the codecs and the need for CLI inputs Ubuntu doesn’t lend itself to the everyday user. For the hacker, or those who are willing to really dig for it, it seems to work great.
For those who say use the forums….I have found no forums less friendly than Ubuntu’s. RTFM was the call of the day, even for those who didn’t know where to look. Xandros, DSL, Kanotix, Puppy, Elive, and others are far friendlier and more easily navigated. I am no longer a complete novice and still Ubuntu’s forums irritate.
I, like most of you, have either downloaded or ordered the Ubuntu, Kubuntu, et al, CDs and have tried my best to see what all the fuss is about. I can’t figure it out. Other distros are easier to set up. Some Linspire and Xandros come with all the codecs. Others have great user groups Mepis, Kanotix, Knoppix, etc, yet Ubuntu remains the major topic here and on Distrowatch. I just don’t understand. If it did “just work” the Ubuntu forums wouldn’t be so littered with frustrated users nor so many unanswered user questions. I have found that many of the satisfied users of other distros came from Ubuntu space….just my 2 cents.
Well, I can’t really comment on the forums, but the #ubuntu irc channel on freenode seemed to be a really helpful place. Maybe you should try there next time.
But still, I’d agree with you. Major players like Xandros, Suse, Mandriva, and Fedora seem to be put together much better, to me anyhow.
Damn Small Linux seems like a rather odd recommendation however. Maybe it’s just been a while since I’ve tried it though. Same goes for Mepis. It seemed very beta-ish maybe a year or so ago.
Well, I agree that DSL is a bit odd. It truly feels like the alternative OS that it is. But, you can install it, enable synaptic, and off-ya-go just like the big boys, only the applications added will be the ones you choose….not simply deleting the tons of “fluff” that Knoppix and others add. I like the fact that it is so different…it sure makes old hardware shine. DSL aside, I think that Ubuntu is working towards being quite commercial….do it their way or the highway. At least the smaller distros welcome input, changes, and allow you to be the decision maker…and, isn’t that what we came to Linux for???
I have had excessive troubles with Ubuntu, well Kubuntu actually. 1 of my bigger ones is the whole sudo thing, since an account can use their own password, it really cancels out being able to stop people from making changes to the system. Even though the changes are for their own account, and not system-wide, I think sudo requiring a password is pointless, just let people install anything if it doesn’t affect the whole system. I consider it only a problem, because if I am to be people’s tech support for their specific system, just let them log in, but no changes can be made to any account without root. Since sudo can not be removed, I don’t fix Ubuntu computers, since Ubuntu has proven itself very buggy. I’m talking bugs as in the computer reboot while playing a video, getting 1 second repeats from music or a video and the whole system’s frozen, or running other programs and it freezes and had to do a hard reboot or hold the power button for 5 seconds to turn it off. I have also had random Swiftfox/Firefox closings. I just click on a link and all the Firefox windows close. Plus also having conflicts with java and java-based applications.
Other problems more specifically with Kubuntu is not having access to super user file system and super user terminal from the System or Utilities menu so I enabled root login to access the root file system since I can’t do it from Kmenu like with other distros, I just type in root password to access the root file folders in whatever account is being used at the moment. So I have to log out, login root, do whatever, then log out again. Also in the folders window, they seem to have taken away the “Open Terminal Here” under the Tools menu, even though I know I can right-click for it, why take it from the menu so I can open a terminal in whatever directory I’m in.
So it feels like I have to learn Ubuntu’s version of KDE because of how badly they modify it, that I can’t just use it like any other distro. I mean install any Linux distribution, or any BSD for that matter, and once it loads KDE, I can get everything done between all the different menus, file menus, and what I type in command line, nothing’s a problem. With Kubuntu, it seems I com across more and more command options that I type in the command line have been disabled for the sake of the safety of the root account, and if I can’t type in all the commands I always use in command line, it blocks from me from getting things done that I have never had a problem with in with other distros. Although some of my BSD commands don’t seem to work in under Linux systems, but that’s a whole different thing. I also get frusted that after installation, I have to enable root account, enable root login, that part of the installation process of any other distribution I’ve seen on the planet.
My point being with all this, is I came to open sources OSes so I can have absolute control from the source code up, or from the ground up, and then to try something like ubuntu that seems to be making such a splash, only to find out some of tradition options have been disabled or crippled, I say no, no chance of Ubuntu replacing Windows. I only want people to be able to log in to their normal user account, use what’s in there, and everything else is off limits, and if something needs changing, come ask me to do it, so I can find out why they want it done to see if they need it for what they do, so that this way there such be absolutely no issues with their computer whatsoever if it’s impossible for them to change files, delete stuff, take out programs, install other stuff, if they require my password to do any of that. SO ubuntu seems to cause enough problems with desktops and laptops, I think it’s dumb joke to consider it for companies, corporations, that kind of stuff. It’s a complete failure when looking at it from an enterprise perspective.
Windows fanbois aside, this has to be the most misinformed post I have seen here yet.
Hear hear. Junky hardware and a severe misunderstanding of sudo do not a bad distro make.
Yeah, I tend to think someone needs to lay down their crack pipe. I almost thought he was talking about Windows and just changed all the Windows Entries to Kubuntu.
Sudo is an access to root, and about browsing the root file system? What? Talk about one confused person.
Delved into Ubuntu 64 and also experimented with the XFCE Desktop which was fun.
Is it full proof? No way but I think 64bit computing under Linux is about as well supported hardware wise as 64 bit Windows.
Thing that gets me is at the moment most 64 distros want to try and shy away from proper 32bit compatability but this leads itself towards the “Chicken before the Egg” scenario.
I also still find that there is a lot I do in Windows that I find excrutiating to do in Linux like Audio and gaming. Sure Doom and Quake run ok but wouldn’t it be nice if Steam ran without pulling your teeth out?
Oh well. Something to still keep my eyes on but I still think there is way too much fragmentation on the Linux front to make a dent on the desktop. We’ll see how things pan out though.
I figure I’ll try to answer some of the comments here.
Hardware support. This has been hacked out and spread around for a long time, but quite frankly, with the possible exception of Wireless network cards, most hardware works fine, and out of the box, (except proprietary nVidia and ATI drivers, which supposedly will be fixed in the next Ubuntu release, Feisty Fawn).
In fact, as others have stated, Windows drivers generally tack on a whole lot of extra crap. Take for example a All-In-One HP printer. Hplip is nice and simple, and works through cups / sane. The HP drivers on Windows are 364 mb if you want network support, not to mention I’ve had issues where I’ve had to remove and re-install them three times before they’d even work!
Next on the list. People ask why Ubuntu is so popular. The reason it’s so popular is that they took Debian, which is extremely popular but has the fault of being overly cautious in their development model and turned it into a Debian with latest Gnome. Debian’s worse fault was that it’s release schedule was not set in stone. Ubuntu took the huge Debian distribution and put polish on it. Most other distributions (even ones that are Debian based) only take a small subset of applications and then polish them up and put them in a distribution, unfortunately in doing so, most of them make them incompatible with Debian proper. Ubuntu did the same, but managed somehow to rebuild most of the Debian packages and put them in Universe / Multiverse.
As far as having to touch the Terminal. Quite frankly the main reason I touch the terminal is because it’s FASTER. GUIs are not the best method all the time. Especially if I’m going to be talking someone through a technical issue, it’s easier to tell them “Click on Applications, go to Accessories, and click Terminal. Then type in…. blah blah” Much faster than saying “Click on this, that and the other thing and then put this and blah.” It’s especially best if you do this through an IM, then they can just cut and paste your command.
It’s easy enough to go without using the terminal if you’re a newer user, but once you know the power that you can have over your system, for trouble shooting or configuring, it becomes almost second nature to use it.
Those that complain of the Learning curve. Of course there is a learning curve, it’s an entirely different system. One of the things I’ve had to explain to people is that they no longer need to go to the store and buy some cheesy application, or download some adware laden software from the web. They can get pretty much all they want out of Synaptic or the Add / Remove software. If they have to search, use the same words they’d use for Google.
If they don’t find what they’re looking for, ask in the Ubuntu forums, unlike someone else had posted, it is very friendly there, unless of course you come off like an ass. Then of course no one is going to help you. If you start off with “I’m going back to windows, this thing is the Suck. I can’t get this to work, blah blah” then people are not going to help you and just tell you to go back to windows. I’ve personally helped many people in the forums there, especially with getting Neverwinter Nights to work.
the closest thing we have to an OS that’s based on open source and easy to use would be a mac.
Linux needs to be 1 OS, designed from top to bottom, in order to be ready for desktop use. And you can’t just have a pretty OS if all the apps can do whatever they want without any standards
the closest thing we have to an OS that’s based on open source and easy to use would be a mac.
My supervisor at work brought in a powerbook with a slideshow on it from home. I played with it a little. Ugh! its counterintuitive and difficult to use. Ubuntu is way better and hase a much more intuitive UI. Ubuntu even looks better. OSX may be better than Windows. Better than Ubuntu – Never
Now watch the Mac fanboys mod me down!
Edited 2006-12-05 05:28
Linux is ready for the desktop. I have been using it on mine for the last 5 years.
Now, if everyone would simply convert to Slackware the world would be a better place!!!
🙂
Having to upgrade my entire OS to get newer versions of OpenOffice and Firefox is a pain in the arse! I don’t have to install Vista to get Firefox 2.0 or OpenOffice 2.0.4, so why do I need to install Edgy?
Yeah, yeah, I know you can just download and install them in opt, but then they don’t integrate the same as before and to replace the older versions requires painful hoop jumping. I have better things to do with my time then to spend hours upgrading two simple packages, or upgrading my entire OS every six months to get the latest bug fixes in programs I use every day!
I hate Microsoft and their crap, but Ubuntu and other dist’s are a chore at times, too much of a chore for most
Hence why Microsoft still commands 90% of the market!
Keeping Windows up and running is too much work if you’re not being paid to do it. If my sisters’ PC needs XP to be reinstalled again due to bitrot, I’ll tell them to do it themselves, or get a Mac.
If you don’t like the way Ubuntu handles things (I hate that upgrading in place is way too unstable, esp. compared to Debian) for no charge, you could always try using a commercial distro that guarantees up to date packages for older releases.
Linux might work well for a lot of people, because distro developers put in an awful amount of work into obscuring all the internals from Joe User, instead of fixing the underlying problems. Still, that makes Linux a great OS for every-day office work.
I found it hard to go beyond that with Linux. When you need to get out of the box you find yourself struggling with an awkward and illogical directory structure, applications that are scattered throughout the OS, the impossibility to install drivers without reading tens of man and forum pages … and it’s really to much for someone that is not technically inclined, doesn’t have the time, or doesn’t feel like it.
The community should decide whether they want Linux as a hobby OS or as a mainstream OS. The features and the ideas are out there, but I haven’t seen a distro that has them all:
– human-readable directory structure – Gobo Linux (but it shouldn’t be only skin deep, and implemented as a kernel hack and a bunch of symlinks)
– easy installation of drivers and applications: PCBSD
– user friendliness: Ubuntu
– media capabilities out of the box: Freespire (?) – I know that there are legal problems with that – I don’t care, regular users don’t care … so find a way!
This makes the difference between a geekland hobby OS, as desktop Linux is now, and a mainstream OS.
I’m hoping that the Linux community is more interested in developing a solid desktop OS than focusing on pointless ideological fights of whether GPL2 si better than 3, or whether or not binary drivers are the root of all evil. Stop making a new distro every day – no regular user can spot any differences besides the color of the desktop and the default theme. I know I’m being harsh but I see a lot of talented and dedicated people getting nowhere by scattering their efforts into hundreds of similar distros, reinventing the wheel every single time. Linux has the potential of being great, if only the people involved could see that.
Edited 2006-12-05 09:53
Since when does it have to be one OS or another? I use PCLinuxOS, Win98 SE & XP all on the same machine, each for what it does best. Linux is what I use when I am online, using a word processor, etc. I have a couple of old windows programs that only run well in Win98, and Photoshop & Acrobat Professional in XP. I use each for what it does best. It is called choice.
Ubuntu is a great windows replacement depending on your needs.
For me I’ve found that while I use windows on one of my primary machines, ubuntu has been slowly replacing more of my secondary machines that used to run windows.
Why? Well the cost is great for starters, I also find Ubuntu takes very little in the way of routine maint.
No more virus scans or malware scans all the time, just set it and forget it! Great OS!
I have the responsibility of about 100 Dell Latitude D5XX laptops and 100 Dell Optiplex 170L/210L. All of these are currently running Ubuntu Dapper and are used in primary schools.
Ubuntu is improving, but still lack in some areas. These are my experiences from Breezy, Dapper, and Edgy:
Hardware support: Laptops are still a pain to configure. Important functionality such as hibernate/suspend often do not work out of the box. We have struggled with buggy trackpad drivers (alps, that uses the synaptic driver). Finally this works OK in Edgy (it is possible to disable the nervous tapping function). The i810 driver that is installed by default is buggy (for instance Google Earth is unuseable).
VGA-out is buggy (using the LCD and Projector simultanously is impossible as the display flickers).
The best thing with Linux/Ubuntu in my opinion is the simple access to a lot of software and almost no problems with trojans / viruses. Ubuntu is very nice in many areas, but still it is hard to recommend it to desktop users as hardware support is problematic.
For now my conclusion is:
Laptops: NO (may work with carefully selected hardware)
Desktops: YES with carefully selected hardware.
On thin clients or simple desktops Ubuntu can be a good choice.
“I have a little game for you. Try to spend a month in linux, just trying out software. And never launch the terminal. ”
Wouldn’t bother me… the computers I learned on and worked on initially had no GUI. Well, curses and stuff like that had come out, but all of my work was done at the command prompt, and I was productive.
But that is off-topic. I spend a lot of time at the command prompt in Windows XP for my development work. I also spend a lot of time in Bash on my mac and on BeOS as well; not because I have to, but because the terminal gives you additional power and flexibility, that is why it is there. It IS a GUI app these days.
Well, this is mostly the top flawed arguments from the Linux fanboys, so anyone else please collect the top flawed arguments from Windows or Mac fanboys. Or maybe I will when the next article about Windows / OSX appears.
PLEASE, will there ever be a discussion without such nonsense? By posting this crap, you cast shame on those who actually bring valuable arguments into the discussion.
Top flawed arguments:
– I don’t care if other people use Linux, they can stay with Windows, because I don’t understand that things like hardware support are directly related to the userbase
– Linux works well because Windows doesn’t
– Linux works well with all hardware because it’s the manufacturers fault that it doesn’t
– Linux works well with all hardware because you have to look for compatible hardware before buying
– Linux runs all required applications because anything that doesn’t run isn’t required
– Linux plays MP3, WMV etc. because OGG is better anyway
– Wine runs all Windows applications because anything it doesn’t run is useless crap
– Anything can be done from within the GUI because people should learn the command-line anyway
– the command-line is easy to learn because I already know how to use it
– Users are intelligent and educated because those that aren’t should never use a computer
– crap like flash isn’t needed because I don’t need it
– Linux is ready for the desktop because it runs on my computer
– anyone who points out flaws in pro-Linux argumentation is a hopeless Windows fanboy, will never criticize other systems than Linux and especially not Windows, intends to support MS’s monopoly without understanding this, is unintelligent and uneducated, and does not understand the value of free software. His arguments are not even worth reading.
… to be continued for Windows / Mac …
That was awesome, and pretty much right.
I can’t use Linux as my my main desktop simply because most of my applications are Windows specific and they don’t have Linux equivalents. Reason enough I suppose.
that the following applications aren’t even available for the linux os. Considering most of these are used by over 75% of the manufacturing industry.
Mastercam
Solidworks
Gibbscam
Surfcam
Until then, a majority of business users will continue to use windows.