Submitted by While Ars looks into the facts behind the recent flurry of license concerns over Windows Vista, several websites are reporting that Microsoft has internally released Vista and Office 2007 final builds. In related news, Microsoft has also released shots of the packaging for Vista and Office 2007. Meanwhile, other people have noted that there seems to be no upgrade path to Windows Vista Ultimate.
“no upgrade path to Windows Vista Ultimate” part leads to a “Ooops! The article you requested could not be found, please navigate our site to locate the article you requested”
Link should be http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4740
I don’t think it looks “Mac-like”. I don’t know what kind of package Tiger came in, but I have the Panther box, and it’s nothing at all like the Vista and Office 2007 packages. I’d say that Vista and Office 2007 packages are much more in line with the packages that MacBU has been using for Mac Office since Office 98. (Not that they’re exact copies, but the follow similar lines of thinking.)
n/t
They can ape Mac-like packaging, but refuse to upgrade the OS “under the hood” to modern standards. Typical.
Sure, if by “looks very Mac-like” you mean not at all Mac like, then yeah, you’re right.
“No upgrade path to Windows Vista Ultimate” should read “No free upgrade voucher for Windows Vista Ultimate with new machines”. There is an upgrade path, namely purchasing the Vista Ultimate Upgrade.
Here’s my prediction: I think this is going to be Microsoft’s most miserable launch yet. The world will probably eventually get to Vista. But, I think it’s going to be a slow transition. Why? Well, becuase it’s going to cost home users an arm and a leg to upgrade their hardware and buy Vista, because businesses are not going to want to jump out and upgrade due to it being uncharted territory and costly and finally because the EULA seems to be so . . . uhm nasty. I think the whole Vista thing is going to be a flop. People are going to reject it. They are going to just continue to use what they have until they have to make a change. Hopefully, Apple and Linux will benefit from this.
There is much truth in what you write, but what about people who buy a new PC after Vista is released?
You can’t find many computers without an OS, unless you build one yourself or ask your local shop to build one.
The second option is extremely popular in this country (Italy), but not many builders will put anything other than Windows on a new PC, even if they *do* use something else. Why? I don’t know exactly, just habit I suppose.
As to buying a Mac, that is of course a great choice, but in this country most people don’t even know what it is, alas.
I dunno about others, but I’ve been wanting to upgrade my PC for awhile, and now that Vista is coming out, it’ll be the perfect time. For all intents and purposes, I think it’ll be a better OS to run on a modern machine machine than XP, and better than OSX or Linux for my particular needs.
As for EULA, talked about this in another thread .. no desire to run Vista home (I’ll probably have Ultimate) in a VM or transfer to more than one machine (as I’m sure most average home users feel the same way), so it’s probabaly not even going to make a dent.
And, I also believe that people will just stick with what they have as well. I’ve been using Windows since 1993 and with the exception of Windows 95, I’ve never went out and bought the OS on launch day. Always got it with a new machine. There’s nothing in Vista that would make me want to go out and spend money to run it on my current hardware either.
“I think it’ll be a better OS to run on a modern machine machine than XP, and better than OSX or Linux for my particular needs.”
May I ask you what are your particular needs?
He works for Microsoft Astroturfing/Marketing division.
He works for Microsoft Astroturfing/Marketing division.
Then he must be really busy trying to convince people to buy that Vista thingy.
May I ask you what are your particular needs?
Well, from here I would say trolling =)
“I think it’ll be a better OS to run on a modern machine machine than XP, and better than OSX or Linux for my particular needs.”
May I ask you what are your particular needs?
Well, you could, but I’ve had this discussion a million times already, and when I lay out my requirements, even the staunchest of ABM’ers agree with my point of view.
So, I would ask you .. why does it matter? Do you not think people are incapable of making an intelligent choice about what OS they use simply because they end up with Windows? Does it really bother you that I think it’s better for my personal needs than the alternatives? Again, what does it matter?
Seems to me like you are dodging the question, I don’t care what you use Vista for but why not just answer the question?
“Well, you could, but I’ve had this discussion a million times already, and when I lay out my requirements, even the staunchest of ABM’ers agree with my point of view”
Well, you certainly didn’t discuss that with me, otherwise I would remember what you said. I ask you because I don’t know and want to know.
“So, I would ask you .. why does it matter?”
I could answer your question like you did with mine. But ask yourself why your needs doesn’t matter. Then your “particular needs” aren’t needs at all, so I will suggest they are more like an excuse.
“Do you not think people are incapable of making an intelligent choice about what OS they use simply because they end up with Windows?”
Haha. This is really funny. What choice are you talking about? Buying a PC and that they get Windows in it without being asked what they want? I wouldn’t mind if people actually choose Windows. But they don’t. I won’t even discuse about general population’s intelligence.
“Does it really bother you that I think it’s better for my personal needs than the alternatives?”
Not at all. You are completely irrelevant to me. But I have what is normal to a lot of people to have, and that is “curiosity”. I’m curious about what were your “needs”. Note that I care about “needs” not about you. But if you mind discussing them, I apologize for disturbing you.
“Again, what does it matter?”
Mmmmmm… that is ratifying question.
“ABM’ers”
What’s an ABM’ers ? I doubt its an automatic bottling machine or anti-balistic missile.
“what does it matter?”
Some people like to fix things and know whats missing so they can fufill it , they dont know your just making baseless comments.
“What’s an ABM’ers ?”
Anti Business Monster?
Arachnid Blocking Machine?
American Bullshit Monopoly?
“What’s an ABM’ers?”
It means, I believe, “Anything But Microsoft’ers”.
It is intended (I think) as an insult, and it is normally taken as a fairly reliable sign that the person who used it initially is either a Microsoft fanboy or an astroturfer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturf_PR
You fit my description of the person who will wait until their current hardware/software no longer does what they want.
Are you not going to even consider Apple or installing Linux on your current hardware?
How do you plan to benefit from Vista? Seriously, if you’re just making a hardware upgrade that just happens to be running Vista, I think Microsoft is in trouble. I guess this was my point: about the only way Microsoft is going to sell Vista is if people need a new computer. And, there’s not going to be a lot of people rushing out to buy new hardware just to get Vista.
People are going to reject it.
Right, that’s why no one was interested in downloading RC1 and RC2. Oh, wait…
Edited 2006-10-31 21:02
At least, I haven’t seen people *craving* for Vista. A solid upgrade – maybe. But it definitely lacks the coolness factor or whatever. Even Microsoft seems to have this “business-like” attitude regarding this release. And people have been discussing the EULA more than any other feature.
“At least, I haven’t seen people *craving* for Vista. A solid upgrade – maybe. But it definitely lacks the coolness factor or whatever.”
It isn’t cool anymore. Now the coolness is in Linux. I would be ashamed to say “I use Windows” if I did (my opinion), but when I say “I use Linux” people that know what Linux is look at me with an expression as if they were talking with some elite guy (nothing more far than the truth).
“Even Microsoft seems to have this “business-like” attitude regarding this release.”
They already have the companies locked in, now they have to maintain the lock-in considering current Linux offerings. I say they will still lose market to Linux and that won’t change.
It isn’t cool anymore. Now the coolness is in Linux. I would be ashamed to say “I use Windows” if I did (my opinion), but when I say “I use Linux” people that know what Linux is look at me with an expression as if they were talking with some elite guy (nothing more far than the truth).
So, you pick your OS on the basis of what makes you look ‘cool’?
It could be that the majority of Windows users have lives outside of computers, so don’t feel the need to attach some ego value to them.
But it definitely lacks the coolness factor or whatever
I’d say it contains more coolness factor than any previous Windows version. For most users the most important improvement is Aero Glass/Flip3D things, not new video driver model or UDF support.
OK. You can disagree. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s all speculation anyway.
But, from what you are saying, can I assume that you will, in fact, be purchasing Vista?
I am an OS geek and I would try even the devil if it was an OS
But that doesn’t mean that I use for a long time every OS I try, let alone buy it.
There’s a difference between getting something for free and having to pay a couple of hundred bucks for it.
<RANT>
I bought Windows95 on launch day, and I remember thinking that it was easily the best looking OS at that time. It was something new, and actually made using your PC easier (if not more secure/reliable).
Testament to this is the way that the Gnome, KDE and WinXP user interfaces are essentially evolutions of the Win95 style (i.e. Start Button + Taskbar + System Tray)
But what do you get for your (large pile of) money with Vista? A shiny new look n’ feel, a browser that is finally up to date, 3D effects on the desktop, and a EULA that will eventually force you to submit a body part to Microsoft.
Pass.
</RANT>
Edited 2006-11-02 06:23
I think the whole Vista thing is going to be a flop. People are going to reject it.
People are unable to reject a new version of Windows. Within a few months you’ll be unable to buy a new PC without a preinstalled Vista, and many businesses are obligated to upgrade.
It might go i bit slow, until the DX10 generation of games arrive – then there’s no turning back. The world will obey and migrate to the new .NET3 platform. (This is the real news in Vista, the migration from Win32 to .NET3)
I love it when wishful thinking is passed off as objective analysis.
I think Vista’s uptake will be similar to XP’s. No long lines at stores ala Win95, but gradual upgrades, until it becomes the dominant OS after about three years.
I see many MS bashers at slashdot and the like claiming that Win98 and Win2000 still have huge userbase and that XP’s uptake has been a dismal failure. That is another example of wishful thinking on their part, as any web usage statistic site shows that Win98 and Win2000 have less than 10% of internet usage, while XP is above 80% or so.
Edited 2006-10-31 23:04
I love it when wishful thinking is passed off as objective analysis.
It comes around every time there is an OS launch. And it shows a fundamental problem with the Linux supporters view of Windows users; they know that the only way that they can succeed, is if MS fails. So they keep praying for failure. And each time, it never happens because the vast majority of computer users see a PC as a tool, not as a statement of intellectual superiority.
The EULA is restrictive; only to the tiny minority who actually ever open a PC, let alone change the motherboard. The vast majority won’t even care.
Vista Ultimate is too expensive? Hell, yes; but the majority will simply get it installed with a new PC.
I’ve heard the tool argument 100 times. Most users think of a computer as a “magical box”.
They read e-mails, chat, simple word processing; play video content; occasional solitaire; listen to music, and burn the odd CD, and spend far too long on the Internet.
Its nothing like a hammer, screwdriver, or any other tool. You could argue that its like a postman; telephone; printing press; DVD player; pack of cards with dealer; tape deck, and mobile library.
It is true that users do not read EULA’s or even understand DRM. I suspect they do *care* that if their machine breaks, their only real alternative is to buy a new machine, and *pay* someone to transfer their data across, and care when they do so all those WMA files they proudly copied across from their own CD’s suddenly stopped working, and they get a little message offering them to *buy* it again.
Its true that users don’t understand the implications, but they *will* feel the restrictions. I do not believe many users will care now, because the issues hit the user later and in the meantime they get excited over a new PC. The thing thats interesting is what they do when they hit these restrictions.
will they
1) Accept lack of privacy; spent the cash.
2) Move to petty piracy (defined by *them*)
3) Look for alternatives
In the past the majority of users have chosen 2 often without realizing it.Microsoft is shutting down 2 as an option, so will users go for 1 or 3. I would until OpenOffice and Firefox always said 1, it is a very windows world. I do think that the next two years is going to very interesting. I think the launch of Vista is just a tiny part of this saga.
On topic
——–
Nice choice of colors on the boxes. Blue for business…it was a marked card. I can’t think why anyone would want washed out basic as much as Premium. I feel that ultimate is definitely marketed at men.
The only think I am surprised about is the choice of green. Its very XP, unless thats the point.
Edited 2006-11-01 12:31
“Nice choice of colors on the boxes. Blue for business…it was a marked card. I can’t think why anyone would want washed out basic as much as Premium. I feel that ultimate is definitely marketed at men.
The only think I am surprised about is the choice of green. Its very XP, unless thats the point.”
They basically kept the same color scheme. XP Home uses green, XP Pro uses blue. I would bet they are going after recognition more then anything else.
“any web usage statistic site shows that Win98 and Win2000 have less than 10% of internet usage, while XP is above 80% or so.”
Because, you know, surfing the web is the only way to use a computer and web site statistics are reliable. Servers doesn’t surf the web and there are quite a few W2k servers around. Why? Because it gets the job done and why upgrade when it works?
There are also many corporations that aren’t using XP but w2k and earlier for the same reason; whatever they are using works and they have existing licenses for it.
Think about the dynamic. OEMs want to sell more powerful hardware. They don’t want you to be able to install Vista on legacy hardware. OEMs therefore will stop selling XP and will install Vista on their new machines. Microsoft makes its money regardless of whether XP or Vista is loaded.
Is what makes people and the society move. Windows is a brand that most out there take it for the computer itself. And Microsoft is pushing the brand even further (look to Windows Live Messenger, Windows Mail, Windows this, Windows that). With this almost unbreakable association between Windows and PC, Microsoft has a great advantage over competitors. The inertia does the rest.
It doesn’t matter if there is Linux or Mac, because people will want Windows if they already know it. You have to be really and royally pissed off by Windows to drop it, and still you need to know you *can* drop it. The truth is most computer users don’t know there is choice and think that Windows is not the problem, that the problem is a hardware thing or their own fault. And they will end buying Vista if the technician recommends so.
There is a chance Vista gets an Me like treatment. But even then, if you buy a PC today, you get Windows XP. Microsoft still gets its money.
How about throwing those billions you earned on the stock market at your little Linux pet?
Yeah, the truth hurts, doesn’t it? No one gives a damn about your “analysis” or your plan to conquer the world from your mother’s basement.
Well personnally I need to hold out on Windows Vista until hardware vendors update their drivers. The only thing thhat ever kept me from switching completely to RC1 was the fact that the drivers feel so unproven. It was the same way with Windows XP though. It took forever until Creative released XP drivers after Windows XP came out. Their only response was “Use Windows 98 until we make drivers that don’t suck” meh no thanks. Fortuantly the recent release of all these new linux distro updates leaves a lot of OS’s for me to decide on using in the mean time if I want afancy OS. I really want to try out the new 3D effects in Linux. Maybe I will do that when I get home…Anyways I hope manufacturers move quickly with their drivers, especially creative and logitech which always seem to be the two I have trouble with.
How about another Duke Nukem Forever story?
I won’t be buying machines with Vista until Dell removes the Windows XP option from their laptops/desktops.
Same here
I don’t know about Worknman, but *my* particular needs that aren’t met by the release version of Kubuntu 6.10 include:
Working wireless with encryption. I have a few machines with RaLink based NIC’s. The RT61 driver seems to be a mess at the moment, especially when encryption is concerned. I did actually check that drivers for Linux existed before I purchased the cards.
I’m sure that the situation will improve with time, however some people need easy to configure/use wireless access now.
I watch a lot of fansubbed anime. Handling of Matroska files with subtitles doesn’t seem to be as good as Windows. Whilst Kaffeine (with a Xine backend) shows the subs, it doesn’t honor things like font family, colour or shadows. Another issue is that fonts are placed on top of the video stream after it has been rendered to a display surface. The fonts are beautifully crisp, however a dual-core ‘Prestler’ (OC’ed to 3.6 Ghz with 4GB RAM on a 800Mhz FSB) Pentium4 with an nVidia 7900GTO 512MB (also OC’ed) struggles and skips at 1920×1200. Windows is fine.
Please be aware that whilst these components are overclocked, they are _100%_ stable. The same issues appear when all components are at stock. I know because I checked.
I have an Edgy server that seems to struggle to burn Video DVD’s properly. They burn OK, but seem to skip and lock my Linux/Windows/XBOX/XBOX360 players. The same files when burnt via Nero on Windows using the same media are fine. Please note that K3B is fine with Video DVD .iso files, it’s just creating discs using .vob files that it struggles with. The DVD writer in question also works perfectly when Windows 2003 server + Nero is running on the same hardware.
I am studying for Cisco CCNP. NetSim router software + computer based testing exams only run on Windows. Personally, I blame Boson for this and would love to have a Linux version.
Despite this, I *really* like Kubuntu and run it on my server and dual-boot on my desktop box whenever possible. I have no desire to run Vista, and genuinely prefer Kubuntu.
The only reason I have stated these issues (which aren’t a deal breaker for me) is that I’ve seen people on this site ‘attack’ Windows users by asking the same question and then making snide comments when said user fails to provide a detailed answer.
I have other issues, however these are the main ones for me at this time. I also think it says a lot about Vista that despite all this I have no intention of purchasing a license. The EULA disgusts me for a start…
I also think it says a lot about Vista that despite all this I have no intention of purchasing a license.
I think it says a lot more about you. “Fansubbed anime” is just another rationalization for a pirate.
Quote: “Fansubbed anime” is just another rationalization for a pirate.
If you bother to look into the anime scene you’ll notice that a lot of anime (especially older titles) is never picked up for license in other territories. The original version of Kanon springs to mind (not the 2006 remake) as does the live action version of Sailor Moon.
The industry tends to turn a blind eye to this, as they aren’t losing money since they have no plans to sell product in other territories. Of course a lot of newer titles are licensed and fansubbing groups will normally cease subbing a project and cease distributing any episodes they have worked on. This is sometimes called ‘Ethical Fansubbing’
A series called ‘Azumanga Daioh’ became popular due to fansubs and consequently did well at retail considering its niche appeal. I’m sure there are many other examples.
The anime scene is all quite ‘grey’ in many regards and routinely grapples with these issues. It seems that most ‘scenes’ have issues of contention…
You are correct in noting that this can be considered piracy, however that is not always considered to be the case by studios. I seem to remember an anime called Battle Programmer Shirase where the author thanked ‘people overseas watching the series on their computers’ for showing interest in the series. This statement was made after the project was canceled. The studios know this happens and tolerate it as long as it builds interest in a DVD release and doesn’t harm sales.
A good fansub will often have cultural notes and references that enthusiasts enjoy. This type of thing often doesn’t happen with retail releases. ‘Excel Saga’ is a notable exception.
I also note that you found no fault with the technical aspects of the points I raised. I have others, but they are fairly well known and documented if the Ubuntu forums are anything to go by…
If alternative operating systems are to increase market share and/or mindshare then the people that create and maintain the software (as opposed to those who purely comment on websites) should at least be mindful of user needs. If they aren’t then the status quo will never change. They can hardly blame the customer since the software is often free and Free,
I also wonder if Worknman likes to play games. Sadly Cedega is not appropriate IMHO. This conclusion was reached after spending time in their own user forums and after talking to a friend who has a subscription to Cedega and is competent enough with Gentoo and Asterisk to earn a _very_ comfortable living.
I might get a lot of backlash for typing this, but…
Complaining about one particular distro (even two different versions of it) doesn’t really say all there is to say about Linux. I wouldn’t want to imply that I think there is one Linux distro that solves all problems right now because, frankly, I haven’t found one. OTH, I haven’t exactly found Kubuntu/Ubuntu to be terribly polished. I’ve been using Ubuntu consistently since Dapper came out simply because that was the last time I had the time to try out a new distro or do a clean install. Ubuntu has improved over time, but I still don’t see it as the best showcase for the capabilities of Linux.
Also, Nero isn’t a free (as in beer) program if you run it legally. I’m not saying that you should lay down and worship k3b because it is free, but I’m sure that $80-100 per copy of k3b would go a long way to helping the developers provide perfect functionality and full QA. Just like your training software, Linux support is lacking in this case rather than Linux capability.
I do respect the fact that some things just won’t run on Linux, and compatibility layers such as WINE are still maturing. So, there are those who actually need a copy of Windows for one reason or another. Personally, I’m grateful for the tools that are freely available with Linux, and I grudgingly admit that sometimes it won’t satisfy all of my needs either. I don’t blame Linux in general though if Kubuntu can’t do what I need.
With regards to Kubuntu, I tried a number of distro’s beforehand. These included Debian based distros such as Etch/Ubuntu/Kubuntu, OpenSuse, Fedora and Gentoo. I settled on Kubuntu Edgy since I encountered a number of issues with other distros (and earlier versions of Kubuntu prior to Edgy) regarding SMP. Fixed disks and NIC’s were not always being initialized in the same order, i.e hda would sometimes be hdc, eth0 and eth1 would also be reversed on boot (cold or warm). These issues seemed to be a mixture of the kernel version, architecture (32bit or EMT64) and the init scripts used by various distros. I found mention of similar issues on the Ubuntu and Gentoo forums without any concrete answers. I spent weeks on this…
I also ditched a perfectly good ATI card (Sapphire X800XT) since it just didn’t work properly with EMT64 (and sometimes 32-bit). This was with Free, closed and even on occasion VESA drivers! BTW, I would personally recommend nVidia cards for the Linux multimedia enthusiast.
With regards to Nero, I have multiple OEM copies (which I don’t consider ‘free’ BTW). I do personally prefer K3B tho’ despite having issues on one of my computers. I generally use K3B whenever possible since I like the software and it has some nice features. The ability to create a Movix video disc is but one example. Rock Ridge support is another.
I personally reckon the issues I am experiencing are to do with ‘strangeness’ related to Edgy.
With regards to training software, I blame the vendor not Linux. I find the lack of a Linux version surprising since *nix users tend to be more knowledgeable about such things. I have worked with a number of Windows admins whose knowledge of networking ended at the transport layer. Most don’t even get that far…
The main reason for the tone my original post was that a minority of Linux fans take a ‘head in the sand’ attitude to areas where the environment needs improvement and can be quite aggressive when posting. I feel this does the knowledgeable and/or curious Windows user a disservice. I doubt that the hackers actually writing and improving the software are so rude.
In fairness, Windows users can be just as myopic. After spending time reading posts on ActiveWin for example, you have to wonder what planet some of these people are on!
I should also note that for every gripe I have with Linux I could list one for Windows that is equally frustrating (if not more so!). The general state of Windows package management along with User Profiles and the Registry are particular sore points.
I have allowed my Microsoft accreditation to slip for these reasons and others. There are reasons why I am studying for CCNP and not MCSE!
For me, KDE has become my DE of choice. Linux is now also my home server OS of choice. It has taken a few years for this to be the case. I now find that overall ‘fit and finish’ as well as UI consistency between applications in KDE (and Gnome) is superior to Windows. I personally value this highly.
I expect that I’ll prolly take a look at Debian Etch at some point as I am beginning to find Ubuntu lacking in some areas such as OS hardening and the quality of some packages (I seem to recall Azureus having Mozilla browser + mail app for dependencies as an example).
I too am grateful for the software that I increasingly enjoy using and thank you for a considered and reasoned reply that doesn’t resort to insults or accusations of piracy.
Both don’t support my Echo Gina 3G. I have tried in vain to get it working under Ubuntu 6.10 and Dapper but to no avail as the Firmware recognition is FUBAR and thus my sound modules load all over the place and not for what they are meant to.
Vista doesn’t even have drivers for it full stop. Still, given I want to create music and the tools I use are Windows based, when Vista does support my hardware I will probably jump to Vista 64bit.
Use what you have to untill a decent alternative becomes available.
I am interested to know what happens if you use Vista on a machine without an Internet connection. Does it function correctly, no activation required, or do you have to phone up?
Banana phone for you.
The OSS fundies are gonna get their hands on their own copy of Vista. They’re still gonna complain tirelessly though.
And I will get my copy too. BTW Vista RC2 looks good on a 32″ LCD monitor!
Don’t worry too much, very few of them will want to soil their hands on the filthy beast.
At least, I haven’t seen people *craving* for Vista. A solid upgrade – maybe. But it definitely lacks the coolness factor or whatever.
I have! I’ve been waiting for years to move on from XP. Vista is goign to be more fun to use. It is cool. My work as an administrator will also be easier with fewer calls from people with spyware. Regular matainace will be easier to explain.
XP was not a cool upgrade except after having suffered from a year of WinMe.