PC Linux distributor Terra Soft has announced plans to release its Yellow Dog Linux distribution for Sony’s upcoming PlayStation 3 gaming console. Featuring the experimental e17 desktop environment, Terra Soft’s upcoming distribution release is surprisingly unconventional. Ars talked to Terra Soft CEO Kai Staats and Enlightenment developer Carsten ‘Rasterman’ Haitzler about Linux and the PS3.
Yellow Dog Linux on the PlayStation 3
36 Comments
2006-10-20 6:05 pm
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2006-10-20 9:17 pm
RavyneI’d have to agree with this in many repsects. Although I do hope that the hardware will be available, an optimized (and ideally dynamically-compiled) software rendering implimentation could do quite well on the Cell CPU. Of the 7 SPEs available, reserving 2 for geometry (vertex) processing, 4 for pixel processing, and leaving the last to other tasks could yield good results. Certainly not top-of-the-line, but I would estimate something akin to a radeon 9600 or Geforce 4 level of capability. Originally, Sony had hoped that that a multi-cell system would be capable of handling graphics — which would have likely been true if things had continued at the pace they were 5 years ago, but there was an explosion in graphics power brought about by nVidea and particularly ATI.
Graphics is one of the few tasks that the SPEs *really* excel at. It’s not branchy, it’s spacialy localized, it lends itself to DMA and it’s embarressingly parallel… Depending on the color depth you want to support you could get 4, 8 or even 16 “pixel pipelines” out of 4 SPEs (128bit/HDR, 64bit/half-HDR or 32bit respectively, assuming that the SPEs support integer and half-floats.)
Can you tell that software rendering is a bit of a hobby for me?
This is THE reason that I will buy a PS3. $600 is dirt cheap for such a Cell processor with a top-of-the-line NVidia graphics chipset.
Anyone know if OpenGL drives work in YDL?
Anyone know if OpenGL drives work in YDL?
Hmm, you’d need a special one compiled by NVidia. No idea if they plan on releasing one or not, but I doubt it since they’ve never released any PPC drivers before.
On the other hand, maybe Sony will provide one?
Edited 2006-10-19 22:17
Nvidia has released PPC drivers in the past, Macs used PPC CPUs and were running Nvidia GPUs in many cases, so that is not the issue. The problem is, unless Sony supports the initiative of a Linux distribution for the PS3, Nvidia will not release a driver. Why would they bite the hand that feeds them?
Linux drivers are a necessity to sell high end Quadro cards, as many graphics heavy companies run Linux nowadays, but YDL?!…with 256 MB of RAM. Sony would have to pay or support that development.
Sony supports Linux on PS3. They provided the PS3 kits to Terra Soft.
I work in the videogames industry, and I can tell you that at this point is not easy to get those kits from Sony.
Nvidia has released PPC drivers in the past, Macs used PPC CPUs and were running Nvidia GPUs in many cases, so that is not the issue.
yes, it *is* an issue. just because there are drivers from nvidia for Mac OS X this means nothing for Linux drivers. You wouldn’t say that drivers are no issue on Linux/x86 if there exists an Windows driver for the device, would you?
I don’t think we will ever see Linux/PPC64 drivers from nvidia.
Anyone know if OpenGL drives work in YDL?
This is a key question and the answer is not in the interview. The points about E17 not needing OpenGL make me wonder if it is missing.
As for plans on turning it into a set top box, what are you going to do for an HDTV tuner? You need a USB HD tuner with cable card and some way of getting around the DRM crap so that you can view the content that you paid for. Hack ATI’s OCUR?
No access to HD, BlueRay and OpenGL will mean no buy for me. It is a shame because this box has real potential. Let’s hope for the best.
No they don’t and they will not. Sony don’t want to risk their Gamesbusiness, although i don’t think that would be very likely even if they did.
It is the same as with PS2 and even NetYaroze (their programmable PS1): they will prevent everything to happen that would make quality 3d games possible.
Sorry, but what OS/free games could threaten PS3 “native” games? Sure, you could probably have Doom and possibly more advanced games (I’m no expert) run on the PS3, but they would be a far cry from what the new PS3 games are supposed to look like.
I also suspect that the hacker/Linux user and game enthusiast markets (/demographics) are quite separate: do you think the average teenager who bought the PS3 for the latest and greatest games is going to run a Linux distro to get homebrew games? I don’t think so.
rehdon
I said that i don’t think it is likely to happen, but obviously that seems to be Sonys concerns. They even admitted it in the NetYaroze days and i think that is why they are so desperate in trying to prevent homebrew software in the PSP.
Pitty, a PSP would be actually interesting if it could run my own programms.
I would take any bet that there aren’t going to be Hardwareaccelerated 3D Drivers on PS3 Linux and the way the Terra Soft guys are emphasizing that they don’t need OpenGL for fancy effects on their desktop is very suspicious.
In response to someone saying since they mention they don’t need OpenGL for their effects that it is suspicious. They say they don’t need it because E17 doesn’t typically use it. You could say the same thing on a distribution for a general purpose computer (like elive) and still have OpenGL drivers.
Edited 2006-10-21 20:53
If they have access to the hardware specs they could be banging the hardware directly and accessing the 3d stuff independently of OpenGL drivers.
This is big news and makes the pricetag start to seem pretty cheap.
Now if Sony could provide some similarly open options for PSP homebrew and ends the tug of war with the hacker community they would vastly increase their userbase and credibility.
The real question is how much access to the hardware will sony allow. Enough to be useful? How much access would sony have to allow for this to be really cool ?
i really dont know….
Well, since this is Linux/GPL and not BSD one would have to assume that nothing could be hidden?
Wrong, the GPL(2) allows everything to be hidden, like Tivo does. That is the main difference that the new GPLv3 would bring about.
A, uhm, friend of mine has this dilemma.
Lets say that he is a linux buff with about $600-$800 to spare on the essentials of a new generation computer – the cpu, mainboard, memory and gpu. His old box is starting to lagg behind a bit, being a three year old 2000something+ Athlon system. The money will more or less buy an X2 dual core CPU, a gig of RAM, a mobo and a midrange GF gpu. Disks, drives and peripherials are simply interhited.
A new x86 X2 computer or a new PS3?
The x86 system is clearly a general purpose machine, used for development, communication, education, multimedia playback and casual gaming etc. The old system is ok for the basics, but for for instance multimedia creation and editing or modern gaming it is a bit too slow. A new machine is needed to keep up with the intended tasks the owner has with a computer.
The PS3 on the other hand is a pretty hard core gaming box. But it will also play various media, including hidef (the owner has a CRT TV that can display 1080i signals, and they sure look great), and supposedly run Linux which opens up a world of retro games emulation and general purpose computing, or does it? Does anyone know anything about the signed binaries issue? Do you think 256 megs of RAM enough to run a functional desktop? Can it be hooked up to a computer LCD monitor with DVI?
To rephrase my question a little, what sort of tasks normally done by a desktop computer do you expect (from what you now about the PS3 and Cell at this time) the PS3 will actually accomplish better than a similarly priced x86 upgrade, apart from gaming?
Edited 2006-10-19 23:02
To rephrase my question a little, what sort of tasks normally done by a desktop computer do you expect (from what you now about the PS3 and Cell at this time) the PS3 will actually accomplish better than a similarly priced x86 upgrade, apart from gaming?
That’s the whole point. It doesn’t have to do it better. If it can do the same as the x86 upgrade AND play games, it is aleady a better a deal!
That’s the whole point. It doesn’t have to do it better. If it can do the same as the x86 upgrade AND play games, it is aleady a better a deal!
Unless of course the only thing it does well is games and the rest isn’t up to snuff. I personally have my doubts that Sony is going to let me do whatever I want on PS3, particulary in the area of turning it into a set-top media box.
I’d just like to point out that I think it would be a bit of a mistake to get all top of the line stuff but not upgrade the hard disk. Least that’s my opinion.
[quote]To rephrase my question a little, what sort of tasks normally done by a desktop computer do you expect (from what you now about the PS3 and Cell at this time) the PS3 will actually accomplish better than a similarly priced x86 upgrade, apart from gaming? [/quote]
Blu-ray
Sure, I am not at all interested in buying movies in this format, but if you have a Netflix suscription, it would be cool to be able to rent ’em.
Will Sony actually allow the Linux-loving public to actually access the Blu-Ray drive? Especially since they’re so enthusiastic about DRM?
Hmm…
Does Linux even support Dlu-Ray yet?
If so, where are the drivers?
From the sound of things, the PS3 wont have Linux pre-installed at all but rather have an embedeed OS with a interface much like Xbox 360’s?
I bet Linux will only become a third-party option that must be purchased like it was with the PS2. That would make the PS3 less special because one can install 3rd party Linux on an original Xbox; support for Linux on the 360 is underway from what I’ve read.
They have already announced that YDL will be available for free download two weeks after the DVD release. And Gentoo already has a PS3/Cell port underway.
Linux is officially sanctioned for the PS3 so it’s a completely different situation than existed on the Xbox.
And Gentoo already has a PS3/Cell port underway.
who sais that?
Edited 2006-10-20 06:04
Gentoo does
http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060807-newsletter.xml
Gentoo does