Red Herring interviews Eric Raymond. “Open-source advocate Eric Raymond on winning over the iPod generation, the need for open source to conquer hearts and minds beyond geekdom, and why Linux advocates don’t have much time to beat Microsoft.” Update by ELQ: Raymond shows signs of once more playing a bigger role in open-source circles. Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols explains this change of strategy in DesktopLinux.com as he knows Raymond personally.
I agree, but disagree with the ESR interview.
First, OSS should not bend to media licenses.. stick out the fad of uber-licensing DRM and the failed corpse of mass media will be back in short time. Note places like the BBC that don’t have to worry about piracy because they are funded other ways don’t have the hang-ups about linux other media companies do. Give it 5 years or so and things will straighten out.. MS has been promising DRM-heaven to media companies for over 5 years now and has yet to deliver. I don’t see that changing.
To agree with him though, we do need hardware manufactures to get on the Linux wagon. He used the best example Apple. Let’s face it, the cat is out of the bag, iTunes DRM is a joke, it’s cracked in days on both Mac and Windows. Let Linux users have real iPod software!! Put the penguin on the map for support of all the cool hardware Apple sells, most of their stuff is BSD based anyway, so drivers should be cake to relase for Linux… even if they have to leave out certian features, a good chunk of their sales are accesories now.. and there’s as many linux users tat need iPods, monitors, keyboards, wifi, webcams, as mac users. Apple would do itself a huge favor and port quicktime and iTunes over to Linux. They need to think of linux as “enemy of enemy” to microsoft. The old PCs aren’t going away, and new users are really liking Macs now. First, Apple would give legitimacy to Linux, and second they would take existing seats away from Microsoft. That’s mindshare to publishers to support KHTML/firefox browsers instead of IE. iTunes DRM over MS, etc. It’s a better idea than licensing OSX because it doesn’t give away the farm. We do need to get the Linux family more well tempered to installing non-OSS software, and help with ways to make it clear what companies can do so they can fufill their contractual obligations for the code the provide.
iTunes DRM is a joke, it’s cracked in days on both Mac and Windows
Not true anymore. It’s been what a year since iTunes 6 was released? And the hymn project, which cracked iTunes DRM hasn’t been able to do so since 6 was released.
FairPlay in 6 is really a lot more advanced than version 5.
Once again gets the basic idea but misses the important details.
He’s right that the key to disruptive replacement is transition points in hardware. He’s wrong in assuming it has anything to do with processor word length. As a result, he’s completely missing the next opportunity for a disruption point.
The disruption point that moved the focus from IBM OSes to Unix was the minicomputer. The disruption point that moved the focus from Unix to Windows was the desktop computer.
In both cases, the disruptive technology was slower and more limited than the original technology, and took years to steal the focus away. (It took almost 15 years for Unix to replace “proprietary OS”)
The disruptive technology at work now is either connectivity or mobility. Jury’s out on that, although I’m betting that connectivity has had its impact and the focus is now on mobility.
Don’t forget also that when closed systems are replaced, the pissed-off customers tend to choose more open ones. (e.g. DEC PDP10 -> DEC VAX/UNIX(not VMS)). Also, more open ones often push closed ones to the margins, or even out of, the market (Apple Mac, Amiga/Atari).
Is to get a massive campaign going to educate the masses as to why DRM’d content is bad and convince them to abandon it. However, seeing as how well the iTunes music store and some of its ilk are doing, I really don’t hold out much hope of this happening.
Point being, if you don’t do the above, then your OS is going to have to support this content .. both easily, and legally. And unless you’re going to climb into bed with the media companies, I really don’t see how you’re going to do that.
“Point being, if you don’t do the above, then your OS is going to have to support this content .. both easily, and legally. And unless you’re going to climb into bed with the media companies, I really don’t see how you’re going to do that.”
Simple – you ask Apple to make an iTunes version for Linux like they did for Windows. How hard is that? When you consider that Apple now provides themselves a way to run Windows on their hardware even I don’t see this an unreasonable request.
Please, ESR, if you’re reading this, before speaking on behalf of geeks you need to be one. Adding multimedia support for 90% of the Linux distros out there is all but brain dead simple. There is a reason, and a damn good one, why OSS advocates don’t just sell out and buy the licenses for multimedia codecs. And you just lost all credibility you might have ever had by pushing Linspire.
> There is a reason, and a damn good one, why OSS
> advocates don’t just sell out and buy the licenses
> for multimedia codecs.
Yeah, and the average Linux user just installs lame, Macromedia flash plugin, win32codecs and libdvdcss and uses the proprietary codecs further on. That is the sad truth.
But a “normal” user has too less knowledge to do that and can’t really use Linux if he’s not able to play his MP3s, to watch his DVDs, to watch videos on YouTube etc.
The codec issue is a big problem that shouldn’t be wiped off with the argument that proprietary codecs are bad and should not be used.
Edited 2006-08-26 17:40
This is the absolute worst time to compromise.
Open Standards are starting to be accepted in the market. Even Microsoft is taking steps to integrate OASIS in future versions of Office.
Open source software can read most of the major multimedia formats including MP3, Xvid/Divx, H.264, Office formats and all major image formats.
Using an ipod with a Project-Utopia aware Linux distro is easier than OSX.
In the future, FOSS advocates can start to push toward truely free (read: patent-free) formats like Vorbis, Theora, OASIS, etc.
The propriatary software stronghold is crumbling. Average users are seeing that a typical Windows box will eventually devolve into a spyware-infested mess, rendering their $1000 computer unusable.
Making compromises like ESR suggests would open our free system to the same problems we want to help people escape.
The propriatary software stronghold is crumbling. Average users are seeing that a typical Windows box will eventually devolve into a spyware-infested mess, rendering their $1000 computer unusable.
not really, windows own about 96% of the desktop market. which i don’t like
http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox46-operating-systems-ma…
Edited 2006-08-26 01:23
I’m not even going to go into the details of how long I spent doing what on Microsoft’s “industry-standard, easiest-to-use operating system” today, and it didn’t even have anything to do with spyware. Suffice it to say that my first experience of having to actually admin an XP system in months didn’t make me regret my decision to chuck it (Windows in general, for the pedants) 7 years ago.
This is the absolute worst time to compromise.
Open Standards are starting to be accepted in the market. Even Microsoft is taking steps to integrate OASIS in future versions of Office.
Agree with the first part, not with the second. Microsoft is adept at taking “open standards” and turning them into crummy, MS-specific non-standards. Remember their “alternative to the Internet”? Java[script]? “This sh^Hite is best viewed with Internet Explorer”?
MS have been breaking the monopoly laws since the year dot. Reality has never been able to match up to their PR about Windows, and the fines the EU is imposing (though far be it from me to disagree with them) don’t amount to more than a drop in the ocean; so why should reality now match up to their PR about operating the same way after 2007 as they have been constrained to under DOJ supervision?
Making compromises like ESR suggests would open our free system to the same problems we want to help people escape.
Agreed on this point also.
Edited 2006-08-26 20:52
Just a guess, but if you want to guarantee mainstream connectivity over the next few years, go Apple. No doubt you’ll get plenty of the DRM nightmare, but you’ll still get Apple.
Give a Linux box to someone with experience and they will set it up real nice – multimedia codecs, mp3, DVD, 3D drivers, wireless, mass storage peripherals and all the rest. Give the same box to an inexperienced, non-technical new user and ask them to set it up and they would be completely flummoxed, most likely. They simply could not do it.
But it doesn’t stop there. If you really want to make Linux mass-market friendly, you are going to need to change a heap of other things – naming conventions (/root, /var, /usr, etc.), permissions, program names and so forth. Suddenly, what you have is no longer Linux.
I’m not sure there is an easy way of out this. Those who use Linux probably don’t want to compromise a la ESR. And those who do want compromise a la ESR will end up with something that isn’t Linux. Maybe a way round this is to make Linux a huge success in the enterprise where multimedia codecs and the like don’t matter much. That at least would keep interest and investment coming its way.
Suddenly, what you have is no longer Linux.
this begs the question, what realy is linux?
if your realy strict, its just a kernel with a stack of other projects (most of them existing because of the GNU tools and libs) on top.
heh, take a look at gobolinux, its playing fast and loose with all kinds of conventions about what a linux distro should look like
funny thing is that its not designed from the ground to be “user-friendly”, but i could have sworn that it happens to be just that.
yet it can still use the same software that everyone else is using (maybe even proprietary ones that expect the classical *nix directory tree).
one interesting bit is that nvidia recipie. when it works it will grab the latest nvidia driver of the server, compile it and install it.
oh, and they have trown out that old init system in favor of much simpler one. in many ways it reminds me of the old autoexec.bat and config.sys combo of the dos age.
as you can tell, im keeping my eye on this distro.
sure, setup is a bitch. but dont tell that your non-techie person can handle a clean windows config.
its more then likely that they would fail at it just as they would fail the linux one.
the diff is that, just like with apple macs, the big computer companys ship a “insert and forget” cd or dvd with a image file rather then a windows install cd these days.
fire up the computer, put the disc into the drive and watch the computer fix itself.
i wonder how many i have helped install the “simplest” of drivers under windows…
… unlike many Linux advocates, he understands the dynamics of the market. He’s not a self-delusional twit, and he knows that you can’t refuse to play with DRM. It’s a reality. It’s here. Manufacturers such as Apple aren’t going to give away their market advantage for free. They’re a business, not philanthropists. You pay, you play. It’s that simple.
But ESR is completely full of crap when he thinks that there’s going to be a business entity out there that’s going to *buy* the DRM/codec technology for iPod, etc and give it to the open source community for free. Now that’s delusional. First, Jobs would never sell it and, second, nobody but MS could afford what he would ask, if he did.
He’s not a self-delusional twit
Are you sure about that? Have you read his blog? If anyone associated with FOSS qualifies as a twit it is ESR.
I’m talking about in this specific regard. He understands that you can’t just thumb your nose at DRM and refuse to play. If we do that, multimedia device and software makers will continue to ignore Linux.
But he completely misses the point, and his replies are so generic and broad, it offers no real solutions – its like saying, “well just make the software better’, well, what you define as ‘better’?
Here is what is required if one wishes to over take Microsoft within a decent amount of time:
1) Good development tools; contra to the myth, developers around the globe love and use the Microsoft IDE (Visual Studio); there is nothing like it on any of the opensource platforms, there isn’t even something close to it on MacOS X.
When ever something is made available on these platforms, it always seems to be overly convoluted to the point that there is far too much pain and missery involved resulting in yet another piece that is shuned by the majority of developers.
For example, why can’t I load up an IDE on one of the said opensource platforms, assign some widgets to a form, double click on the widgets, add a little code, and voila, have any application? Why do I need to virtually hand code *EVERY* possible action or widget that is in my application?
2) Hardware support paramount, and for it to work out of the box; not just detect, but actually makes it available to the user in a usable state; who cares if the Linux kernel, for example supports a said piece of hardware, if the top layer of the stack isn’t not communicating with the bottom level (kernel), then how on aerth does the users or the applications residing in user space know that the said piece of hardware is installed, module loaded, and what features are supported via the provided driver!
3) Application vendor support – yes, surprisingly people actually purchase computers to get work done! if they can’t find their favourite application on the said platform, they aren’t going to move, not matter how good the opensource alternative is.
Sorry, an artist is not going to compromise by using GIMP when he prefers using Painter or Illustrator; a teacher isn’t going to be bothered learning how to use a ‘work in progress’ tool like Scribus when she or he prefers using Publisher.
4) Accessible, standardised and easy to install; stick to a desktop, and only provide that one desktop; its about time that the whole opensource community got together and decided on one desktop, from top to bottom; no compromises; gradually merge parts into this ‘unified desktop’ from both desktops, and come up with something that’ll appear and work the same on all desktops.
One should be able to pick up a copy of Novell and not have to worry that the application they’ve just bought only works on Red Hat or vice versa; he or she should be able to wonder down to Dick Smiths or Harvey Norman, choose something off the rack, take it home, and it just works, out of the box, they can get to work.
Unfortunately, I don’t see the above occuring, too many religious per-sutes, too many vested interests, to many people trying to claim a moral highground or victory or have their name up in lights.
You either want to take the desktop or you don’t; for me, I don’t see what the fuss is about, why do you want the desktop? thats the bigger question; I”m quite happy to be only 5% of the desktop usage; I’m not having to deal with the shitstorm each day that is virus, spyware and so forth; I don’t have to deal with the dishonesty of the information technology industry via their embracing of DRM and their cover ups when it comes to product safety.
For example, why can’t I load up an IDE on one of the said opensource platforms, assign some widgets to a form, double click on the widgets, add a little code, and voila, have any application? Why do I need to virtually hand code *EVERY* possible action or widget that is in my application?
What do you mean exactly? I don’t think you can really call something like glade “hand coding”.
Sorry, an artist is not going to compromise by using GIMP when he prefers using Painter or Illustrator; a teacher isn’t going to be bothered learning how to use a ‘work in progress’ tool like Scribus when she or he prefers using Publisher.
Photoshop runs on Linux, there is no need for GIMP if you don’t want it. Illustrator isn’t available as far as I know but there are actually people who prefer Inkscape to the commercial SVG programs.
Scribus was probably a bad example on your part considering not only is it not a “work in progress” it is actually used commercially.
Accessible, standardised and easy to install; stick to a desktop, and only provide that one desktop; its about time that the whole opensource community got together and decided on one desktop, from top to bottom; no compromises; gradually merge parts into this ‘unified desktop’ from both desktops, and come up with something that’ll appear and work the same on all desktops.
Please explain exactly why eliminating choice is beneficial at all to Linux. In fact competition is what drives GNOME and KDE to advance so rapidly.
What do you mean exactly? I don’t think you can really call something like glade “hand coding”.
So you’re saying I can fire up Glade, plonk some widgets on a form, double click on those said widgets add a little C/C++/C#/etc code to it, press compile and it’ll all be peachy? from my past experience, you couldn’t do that with Glade.
Photoshop runs on Linux, there is no need for GIMP if you don’t want it. Illustrator isn’t available as far as I know but there are actually people who prefer Inkscape to the commercial SVG programs.
Which requires the purchasing another programme; ‘oh, you’ve now spent several hundred dollars on Photoshop, how about spending some more money to get your application working!” – I’m sure the persons response will be “JOY!”
Scribus was probably a bad example on your part considering not only is it not a “work in progress” it is actually used commercially.
I’ve used it, it isn’t up to standards, lack of templates, lack of clipart, lack of good creative fonts etc. All the things that the consumer are looking for – a mountain of fonts, clipart and templates so they can make their poster for their local fete.
Please explain exactly why eliminating choice is beneficial at all to Linux. In fact competition is what drives GNOME and KDE to advance so rapidly.
Explain why fragmentation and splitting of resources spurs innovation when we’ve already seen Microsoft and Apple force each other to innovate.
Explain why fragmentation and splitting of resources spurs innovation when we’ve already seen Microsoft and Apple force each other to innovate.
KDE competes with Gnome the same (similar) way, as Apple competes with MS. There is no splitting of resources – KDE and Gnome contributors _chose_ to work on one of the projects. Should that project not exist, it would NOT imply, that all its contributors would go work on the other project.
KDE is written in Qt, C++. Gnome is written (mainly) in Gtk+, C. Do you really believe, that all the C coders will overnight start enjoying C++ and vice versa?
All major/commercial distros are able to provide both of these environments in their products. I see no reason, why should one of them be abandoned.
Do you like choice in cars? Mobile phones? TV sets? Keyboards? Mice? CPUs? Graphics cards? HDDs? Blank DVDs? Operating Systems? Yes? Then why not in desktop environments? It’s a product as everything else.
I doubt many of the people who object to the “fragmentation” in the Linux market actually DO like choice in OSes, unless the “choice” is MS this or MS that. Nor do I think any of them realise that MS interfaces have changed repeatedly (requiring that dirty word, “learning”) long before Office 2007 was a twinkle in Steve Ballmer’s eye (for example, Program Manager -> Start button, File Manager -> Windows Explorer; Printers folder in My Computer -> Printers folder in Control Panel). Given that that’s the case, I doubt they realise the double-think required to approve of choice in cars and PC’s but not in OSes, either.
Why was this modded down? Are facts no longer allowed here?
Posts expressing unpopular sentiments are often modded down as trolls. When I do moderate at all, I usually look for these posts and mod them back up unless they are abusive or immature.
Not a big fan of the moderation here. Wish people could restraint themselves. Worth reading below your default threshold.
KDE competes with Gnome the same (similar) way, as Apple competes with MS.
No, Apple does not compete with Microsoft – that’s the whole point of saying there’s no need for two desktops on Linux: If there wouldn’t be Adobe and, since recently, iTunes, nobody would be interested in Apple! And by ‘nobody’ I mean the 0.1% of Apple lovers: They simply don’t count in the desktop market.
Having two desktops is like having two streets leading from A to B: To the majority of people, the differences of having two streets usually don’t justify the costs. People want to consume or produce content; a desktop is just a neceassity. They want to be able to switch jobs without being required to learn the usage of a new desktop.
Additionally, the problem is not just two desktops, but two different development environments: It’s a lot of work to cover the differences by inventing another project, Portland. Nobody really cares about the existence of XFce besides GNOME: It’s non-standard and it does not create any apps that are unusual to use for a GNOME user.
For the same reason, there no real need to invent and push another web server besides Apache: It’s working for the majority of people. There might be a small minority of people using a different web server but these don’t threat the dominance of Apache.
Next, if people write: We need one (standard) desktop, they often mean: Linux needs the mindset to have a standard desktop!
If you have the right mindset, you can accept C and the gobject system for libraries because that allows more language bindings. With the right mindset you can accept C++ applications in the desktop because there are more C++ developers than C developers, and C++ is suited better for user-level applications. With the right mindset, we would have a compromise in design: A little bit more features for the current GNOME users, and a little bit more usability for the KDE users.
And we wouldn’t really have to accept GPL libraries on the one hand, and a Microsoft-inspired framework on the other hand.
The lack of the right mindset is what made two desktops in the beginning: The KDE guys didn’t think of the market side and thus simply ignored the requests of the Free Software people. With the right mindset, the KDE guys may have accepted the requests for business reasons.
The point is: Neither operating systems nor desktops are common products. People saying so are clueless about market theory.
Operating systems and desktops are network goods: The costs of each increases the more of them exists. The utility of them, however, is equal (on average).
Or would you want a second gas pipeline for your house that you are required to pay? Would you want a second electricity connection that you would be required to pay? Would you want to use two incompatible telephones networks that you both need to use? Would you want two more or less identical streets between A to B and that you are required to pay?
No, you don’t want that, and this is why many people say: We don’t need two desktops and development environments for the mainstream.
Of course, this is just a statement of what’s wrong. There’s no way to change the current situation. Portland is basically a hack around it, hopefully covereing the problem so Linux is able to gain market share on the desktop.
Neither operating systems nor desktops are common products. People saying so are clueless about market theory. Operating systems and desktops are network goods: The costs of each increases the more of them exists. The utility of them, however, is equal (on average).
Proof? Why would the _cost_ of an OS _increase_ by being more of them?
Or would you want a second gas pipeline for your house that you are required to pay?
Depends. If I’m cooking for 3000 people, yes. For a home, no. But even for a home, I’d welcome a choice of provider of the gas. I.e. to whom I pay the bills.
Would you want a second electricity connection that you would be required to pay?
Every decent server hosting company has at least 2 electricity providers. For a home, one connection with choice of provider would be enough.
Would you want to use two incompatible telephones networks that you both need to use?
I do so now. Fixed line vs. mobile phone. A lot of people here have even 2 mobile phones, with different companies. That is ordinary people, students.
Would you want two more or less identical streets between A to B and that you are required to pay?
Point A=home. Point B=bus stop. There are two ways that can take me from A to B and back in the same time. For A to B, I usually take one, for B to A I take the other. I have no problem with that. The 2 ways have not been built for my pleasure. They have been built around streets, other houses, shops, etc. That, however, changes nothing about the fact that I can daily chose how I will walk from A to B, or back.
If you have the right mindset, you can accept C and the gobject system for libraries because that allows more language bindings. With the right mindset you can accept C++ applications in the desktop because there are more C++ developers than C developers, and C++ is suited better for user-level applications.
Except for the people paid for working on KDE / Gnome, the contributors do it, because they like it. Do you _really_ believe, you could force someone, writing code for fun, to use a language he does not like?
I won’t even try to rebutt all your generalizations about how Apple/XFCE does not matter and about what “ordinary” people want. There’s no such thing as an “ordinary” person.
Also, to me, the whole Open Source / Free Software movement is about CHOICE. If Gnome suits my needs good enough and nothing else suits me better, than I want to use Gnome, as it is. Not some KDnomE hybrid. The same prerogative of course applies to KDE, XFCE, *box, etc.. users as well.
The usability of _my_ desktop ranks much higher in my list of priorities than some OS-usage statistics. I could not care less if Linux has 1%, 5% or 15% of the desktop market, when I can use it.
Proof? Why would the _cost_ of an OS _increase_ by being more of them?
The total costs (from the view of the economy) of course increases because developement costs for any software are fixed costs. There are nearly no variable costs. If you build two operating system, you have the double costs (in total). If you build two desktops, you have the double costs.
Note the term of “cost” in economic reasoning is used widely: It even captures the efforts spend by volunteers since they could have spend their time doing something differentely — whatever that is in the concrete case: marrying their girlfriend, river rafting, reading, or developeing something else.
However, you may like to read the article in wikipedia about network effects [1] and natural monopolies [2].
Concerning your counter-examples: This is really easy to do: I simply can’t spend all my time describing cases in detail. Show me two cities that are connected by two functional highways running side by side to each other, and I show you millions of people who think that this is the most clueless thing they ever saw.
Of course, if you think two identical highways connecting the same two cities makes sense… Well. Hopefully, you will never make it into politics, then.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effects
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly
If people did things your way there would only be one OS for all computers. Come to that one type of computers. Do I have to drag political parties into it again?
There isn’t just one type of computer, or one OS. Even Microsoft has 3 different versions of Windows atm. At one point, they had 2 or 3 (depending on how you count Windows 3) more-or-less very different (from a programming standpoint) OSes out at the same time.
So you’re saying I can fire up Glade, plonk some widgets on a form, double click on those said widgets add a little C/C++/C#/etc code to it, press compile and it’ll all be peachy? from my past experience, you couldn’t do that with Glade.
Actually it does work like that. Maybe you need a refresher.
http://www.writelinux.com/glade/
Which requires the purchasing another programme; ‘oh, you’ve now spent several hundred dollars on Photoshop, how about spending some more money to get your application working!” – I’m sure the persons response will be “JOY!”
No it doesn’t. Wine is free.
I’ve used it, it isn’t up to standards, lack of templates, lack of clipart, lack of good creative fonts etc. All the things that the consumer are looking for – a mountain of fonts, clipart and templates so they can make their poster for their local fete.
I’m really left wondering if you actually used Scribus before. I have over 300 fonts at my disposal when I open Scribus. I also have templates available although there aren’t too many but I can make my own if I want to. It doesn’t really matter though because professionals don’t use templates and they don’t use clipart either. Home users use those options and most of them don’t really want to pay hundreds of dollars for publisher.
Explain why fragmentation and splitting of resources spurs innovation when we’ve already seen Microsoft and Apple force each other to innovate.
The opposite is true. Lately Microsoft and Apple have just been ripping each other off, not innovating. Fragmentation is not happening either. In fact underlying systems are being unified. Take a look at DBUS, which will be incorporated into KDE4. I like the idea of having unified frameworks beneath the Linux DEs but there is absolutely no need to rid ourselves of perfectly good DEs and windowmanagers for the sake of desktop acceptance when it won’t help at all anyway.
Actually it does work like that. Maybe you need a refresher.
http://www.writelinux.com/glade/
Negative. It does not work in the fashion the poster is hoping.
If you have to exit the GUI builder and go to a command-line to run ‘make’ then its not an integrated development enviroment.
What the poster is asking for is somehting like visual studio, layout your dialog, double click the widget and get a code window and start typing instructions. Then hit ‘build’ when you are done and you have a finished application.
This is NOT how Glade works. Glade is simply a GUI layout tool and nothing more.
For those of us from the windows world who are looking for a Visual Studio equivilent on Linux there sadly are none. Monodevelop would be the closest and even it is seriously lacking.
What the poster is asking for is somehting like visual studio, layout your dialog, double click the widget and get a code window and start typing instructions. Then hit ‘build’ when you are done and you have a finished application.
This is NOT how Glade works. Glade is simply a GUI layout tool and nothing more.
That’s because Glade isn’t an IDE, although it can be used in conjuntion with an IDE like Anjuta. PIDA with Gazpacho support is pretty good too. It’s there you’re just not looking in the right places.
That’s because Glade isn’t an IDE, although it can be used in conjuntion with an IDE like Anjuta. PIDA with Gazpacho support is pretty good too. It’s there you’re just not looking in the right places.
I’ve used glade and it really is a great tool. I also like KDevelop.
I guess the big rub when it comes to development tools on linux distros, is while you can configure various apps to work together I have found nothing out of the box that is fully integrated for development. Monodevelop is close, but still lacking.
Its getting better and honestly its not that bad the way it is, I mean its usuable and you can produce good software but after spending years working with visual studio it does not feel as refined or as integrated.
I guess the big rub when it comes to development tools on linux distros, is while you can configure various apps to work together I have found nothing out of the box that is fully integrated for development. Monodevelop is close, but still lacking.
I guess that’s just the nature of Unix. Small parts working together. It’s also the nature of open source. Developers working in smaller groups on smaller projects generally produce higher quality code. It also makes things reusable. Glade can be, and is integrated into more than just Anjuta. It’s a waste of resources to develop a new GUI design program for every IDE. I don’t really see it as such a big hindrance. Maybe that’s just because when I learned to code the tools were much more primitive and what is available today on Linux is a luxury to me.
I find this short thread makes it very clear why linux is not getting more than 400k people on the desktop, despite the hype.
one person asks:
… why can’t I load up an IDE on one of the said opensource platforms, assign some widgets to a form, double click on the widgets, add a little code, and voila, have any application? …
a linux enthusiast replies:
Actually it (glade) does work like that. Maybe you need a refresher.
but it turns out that’s not exactly so, as pointed out by a third participant…
… the poster is asking for … somehting like visual studio, layout your dialog, double click the widget and get a code window … hit ‘build’ when you are done and you have a finished application
but of course it isn’t, says the enthusiast:
That’s because Glade isn’t an IDE, although it can be used in conjuntion with an IDE like Anjuta. PIDA with Gazpacho support is pretty good too. It’s there you’re just not looking in the right places.
i think that last quote almost misses a “duuuh!”.
so it seems the linux enthusiast would tell you he has the perfect replacement, but on closer inspection you learn you have to patch the pieces together.
if you want streamlined end-to-end solutions, i guess you go to microsoft.
Edited 2006-08-28 22:11
Explain why fragmentation and splitting of resources spurs innovation when we’ve already seen Microsoft and Apple force each other to innovate.
If MS didn’t have to compete with Apple it probably wouldn’t have “innovated” as much as it has. If GNOME didn’t have to compete with KDE (and yes they do compete) it probably wouldn’t have advanced as much as it has. I fail to see what point you are trying to make.
You’re also making a flawed assumption that if KDE didn’t exsist all current KDE developers would work on GNOME.
If GNOME didn’t have to compete with KDE (and yes they do compete) it probably wouldn’t have advanced as much as it has.
Agreed. Besides, Gnome and KDE have different views about how a desktop environment should work. As I wouldn’t be happy using a KDE-style desktop, lots of KDE people wouldn’t be happy using Gnome. It’s impossible to please everybody, so the diversity is good. More: a lot of work is being done to unify what makes sense to unify, like menus, drag-n-drop, clipboard etc.
Too bad most who make up of the “open source” movement aren’t as grounded in reality like him.
Edited 2006-08-26 01:51
“Update by ELQ: Raymond shows signs of once more playing a bigger role in open-source circles.”
oh gosh, I hope not… it was nice to not have him around so much. the guy’s an embarassment to the rest of the community, and within the last few years, increasingly so. like I was saying to someone the other night, I kind of wish he’d just convert to using windows or macs or something, and leave the rest of us alone.
I could go on further, but I guess an idiot like him isn’t quite worth it.
i share a lot of your sentiments about his involvement in the community, but i don’t think its fair to call the guy “an idiot”.
It’s very rare I’d resort to name calling like that, and “idiot” doesn’t quite capture what I meant. There’s lots of things that the other big names in the free software world say that I’d strongly differ with, but still I can respect their technical achievements (RMS comes to mind here).
In ESR’s case, I can’t even do that. His techinical achievements are hardly noteworthy (largely minor little programs here and there). Essentially, he’s a credit-whore, more interested it seems in advertising ESR than whatever cause of the day he’s pushing, which lately hasn’t had anything to do with Linux btw.
Regarding that latter, to give you a better idea of why I so strongly detest the guy on a personal level, I’m a Muslim (convert). Criticism is one thing (you get used to that being in my position and where I live), spewing the violent ignorance and hatred he reeks of is entirely another.
We should club together and buy him a Windows PC. Macs are too good for him.
Companies selling pre-installed Linux Desktops/Laptops
(the list keeps growing).
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/
http://www.alvio.com/ Desktops (Fedora +SuSE) Laptops (Fedora)
http://www.amazon.com Desktops (+Linspire +Xandros)
website: search “Linspire” or “Xandros”
* http://www.amnet-comp.com Desktops (Debian Redhat Slackware)
http://store.alphapcstore.com/oplisy.html Desktops (+Linspire)
http://www.ankermann-pc.co.uk/ Desktops (+SuSE)
website: After configuration click “Operating systems sold separately” for SuSE installation
* http://www.aslab.com/products/products.html Desktops (Fedora +SuSE) Laptops (Fedora +SuSE)
* http://www.axiomtech.co.uk/ Desktops (+Ubuntu +Kubuntu +SuSE Fedora Debian)
http://www.carvercomputers.biz/products.html Desktops (+Mepis TaFusion)
http://www.cheapestpc.com.au/ Desktops (+Ubuntu)
* http://www.cheeplinux.com/ Desktops (CentOS Fedora +Mandriva +Ubuntu)
* http://www.cosmoseng.com/cgi-bin/cosmos/index.html Desktops (+Mandriva +Ubuntu) Laptops (Fedora +SuSE Redhat)
* http://custombarebones.com/catalog/category_263_Linux_Systems.html Desktops (Fedora +SuSE Redhat)
* http://www.emperorlinux.com/ Laptops (EmperorLinux +Ubuntu Redhat Debian +SuSE Slackware +Mandrake)
* http://www.eracks.com/ Desktops (Centos Debian ELX BSD Gentoo +Mandriva +Ubuntu Icepack +SuSE +Xandros) Laptops (CentOS Debian Fedora BSD Gentoo +Mandriva +Ubuntu +SuSE +Linspire Redhat)
* http://ataria.errex.net/ Laptops (Debian +Mandriva +Ubuntu)
* http://www.fifthedimension.net/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&S… Desktops (Frontier Linux)
http://www.gamepc.com/shop/systemcategory.asp?category=notebook Laptops (Fedora +SuSE)
* http://www.geekstop.co.uk/ Desktop (+SuSE)
* http://www.gigastrand.com/store/US/Computers.htm Desktops (+Linspire) Laptops (+Linspire)
* http://groovix.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2 Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu)
* http://www.ibexpc.com/ Desktops (Fedora Redhat +SuSE +Ubuntu +Xandros)
http://www.idotpc.com/ Desktops (+Linspire)
* http://www.ikbenstil.nl/ Desktops (+Ubuntu)
* http://www.koobox.com/ Desktops (+Linspire)
http://www.kmart.com/ Desktops (+Linspire)
website: search “Linspire”
* http://laclinux.com/ Desktops (Debian Fedora +Ubuntu Redhat Slackware +SuSE)
* http://www.linspire.com/ Desktops (+Linspire) Laptops (+Linspire)
* http://www.linuxcertified.com/ Laptops (+Ubuntu Fedora +SuSE)
* http://www.linuxcomp.net/ Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu)
* http://www.linuxcomputersystems.com/ Desktops (Fedora +Linspire RedHat +SuSE +Mandriva)
* http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/products/laptops/ Laptops (+Ubuntu)
* http://www.linuxloft.com/ Desktops (+Edbuntu +Linspire +Xandros) Laptops (+Xandros)
* https://www.linuxmedia.co.uk/ Desktops (call-users-choice)
* http://www.linuxsyscorp.com/ Desktops (+Xandros)
http://www.marxcomputers.ie/ Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu)
http://www.microcenter.com/ Desktops (+Linspire)
website: search for “Linspire”
* http://www.micronux.com/ Desktops (CentOS Fedora +SuSE Redhat)
* http://www.microtelpc.com/ Desktops (+Linspire LinspireEspanol)
http://www.ncix.com/ Desktops (+Linspire)
* http://openforeveryone.co.uk/ Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu)
http://outpost.com/ Desktops (+Linspire)
website: Desktop Computers > Shop by Operating System > Linux
* http://www.pcsforeveryone.com/ Laptop (Fedora Gentoo +Ubuntu +SuSE Redhat)
http://www.pegasosppc.com/ Desktops (Debian +Ubuntu Gentoo Fedora +SUSE Crux) new
* http://www.pogolinux.com/ Desktops (Fedora Redhat +SuSE)
* http://www.pricepc.com/ Desktops (Fedora +Linspire)
http://www.reddog.com.au/ Desktop (+Ubuntu)
http://www.sears.com/ Desktop (+Linspire)
website: search for “Linspire”
* http://www.seascape.us/ Desktop (+Linspire PCLinuxOS +Xandros)
* http://www.shafetech.com/ Desktops (+Ubuntu +Kubuntu +Edubuntu +Xubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu +Kubuntu +Edubuntu +Xubuntu)
* http://shoprcubed.com/ Desktops (Fedora) Laptops (Fedora Redhat +SuSE)
http://www.stompboxpc.com/linux.html Desktop (+Ubuntu +Xandros)
* http://www.sub500.com/mainpage.htm Desktops (+Linspire) Laptops (+Linspire)
* http://www.swt.com/ Desktops (Debian Fedora Redhat +SuSE) Laptops (Debian Fedora Redhat +SuSE)
* http://www.system76.com/ Desktops (+Ubuntu) Laptops (+Ubuntu)
http://www.systemax.com/divisions.htm Desktops (+Linspire)
website: Pick store then search “Linspire”
* http://technologist-inc.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21 Desktop (+Mepis)
* http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/ Desktops (Yellowdog)
* http://www.thelinuxshop.co.uk/ Desktop (+Mandriva)
http://www.tigerdirect.com Desktops (+Linspire)
website: search for “Linspire”
http://www.tigerdirect.ca Desktops (+Linspire)
website: search for “Linspire”
http://www.transtec.co.uk/ Desktops (+SuSE)
http://www.walmart.com/ Desktops (+Linspire +Xandros)
website: search Electronics for “Linspire” or “Xandros” ;
or Electronics › Computers › Desktop Computers › Microtel
* http://ztechshop.net/ Desktops (Vector)
* http://www.zinside.com/ Desktops (+Ubuntu)
* These vendors give you a clue (on their homepage) that they sell Linux computers.
+ “Beginner” versions of Linux (per wikipedia.org 8/7/2006): Ark, Linspire, Mandriva, Mepis, Parsi, Puppy, Sauver, SuSE, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu, Xandros
Geez, if this post isn’t worth a vote nothing here is. 🙂
“And then there is a 32-bit to 64-bit transition going on now, which I think is going to be our best window for a long time to achieve majority market share, but the hardware trend curves indicate that the 64-bit transition will probably be over sometime in 2008, and that means that the market’s going to be making its collective decision about the dominant 64-bit operating system probably before that.”
I don’t think most users have a clue about what 64-bit is, or even care. People (mostly) just expect things to work.
Many people have been blinded by attempting market success and compromising the real reason this software was made. To allow freedom, the initial aim was for everyone to be liberated when using their software and withhold their four freedoms.
Now what Richard Stallman has been pleading against for years is nigh. And that is the use of “Open Source” impression and ideological meaning, the reason this slogan in itself was made was for market success and to be honest there is a difference between market success and liberation.
It’s worrying to see people lead astray by a man that has no care for your freedom yet has much influence.
“Open Source” has leaded many people to compare programs and conclude which one is superior by their features and speed. Many free software programs are adequate for use and yet people shun their freedom for useless bonuses.
And to this point I give this proverb, value your freedom or you will lose it.
A very good interview with rms on this issue is here: http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484
“developers around the globe love and use the Microsoft IDE (Visual Studio);”
You mean *Windows* developers love it. Noone else is using it.
“For example, why can’t I load up an IDE on one of the said opensource platforms, assign some widgets to a form, double click on the widgets, add a little code, and voila, have any application?”
Oh, you mean like QTDesigner?
“yes, surprisingly people actually purchase computers to get work done! if they can’t find their favourite application on the said platform”
yes, people want to get work done and wether it is done with “their favourite app” or not doesnt really matter to them as long as things get done.
“Accessible, standardised and easy to install; stick to a desktop, and only provide that one desktop;”
Awesome, someone else who just dont get it. You cant do this because 1) there is no single point of control over the “Linux OS” and b) neither you nor anyone else can force people to work on things they don’t like. at least not without paying them a large sum of money (and no, slave labour doesnt count).
The reason there are different distros are because people like different things. This is really not that hard to understand. Maybe you also think that all music should sound the same and that all movies should be the same? Who needs diversity when you can make more money from just pumping out the same stuff over and over?
“developers around the globe love and use the Microsoft IDE (Visual Studio);”
You mean *Windows* developers love it. Noone else is using it.
If (as I’m sure you do), you mean “no-one else would touch it with a bargepole even if it were made by someone else and available on Linux or the Mac”, you might wanna make that clear!
“For example, why can’t I load up an IDE on one of the said opensource platforms, assign some widgets to a form, double click on the widgets, add a little code, and voila, have any application?”
Oh, you mean like QTDesigner?
Or indeed KDevelop. Shame Borland stopped development of Kylix, though.
“yes, surprisingly people actually purchase computers to get work done! if they can’t find their favourite application on the said platform”
yes, people want to get work done and wether it is done with “their favourite app” or not doesnt really matter to them as long as things get done.
My favourite apps on any platform are Amarok and vi. (I don’t have much experience with Macs.) No, you can’t do serious work on Amarok, and to write a book in vi you’d have to learn LaTeX or something, but they do what they do extremely well (yes! even vi! – if you’re a touch typist; I’d say if you’re not then Emacs is easier).
If I had spent only five minutes on Linux or the Mac, I wouldn’t know how nice it is to do work without having to worry about OS crashes, spyware, viruses or (W)indows (G)reed (A)ssistance, either.
“Accessible, standardised and easy to install; stick to a desktop, and only provide that one desktop;”
Awesome, someone else who just dont get it. You cant do this because 1) there is no single point of control over the “Linux OS” and b) neither you nor anyone else can force people to work on things they don’t like. at least not without paying them a large sum of money (and no, slave labour doesnt count).
The reason there are different distros are because people like different things. This is really not that hard to understand. Maybe you also think that all music should sound the same and that all movies should be the same? Who needs diversity when you can make more money from just pumping out the same stuff over and over?
Well said sir! I might add that there *are* distros that provide “only one desktop”. Since there’s more than one for each, you get the benefits of “only one desktop” without having to worry about what happens when/if your provider goes bellyup, either.
Edited 2006-08-26 21:29
While I agree that it is nice to be able to choose between Gnome or KDE, and also between distros, I also think that Linux distros should choose to accept a unifying standard for software installs.
While lots of distros support RPM, everyone knows that if it isn’t compiled specifically for your distro, you’re headed straight for dependency hell.
I don’t mind having specific RPMs for each distro, but you should *always* have the option of downloading an uber RPM that contains all of the dependencies.
They made something like this, it’s called AUTOPACKAGE. It downloads all the necessary libraries needed if they’re available as an autopackage.
And it includes the code to install the autopackage installer inside each application installer.
While lots of distros support RPM, everyone knows that if it isn’t compiled specifically for your distro, you’re headed straight for dependency hell.
Maybe that’s what everyone “knows”, but based on a little experiment I did tonight, maybe everyone should know (no inverted commas) that that’s a canard.
I downloaded an rpm for Suse 9.3 the other day and have been using it on 10.0. No probs.
So tonight after seeing your post I decided to do a little experiment.
I like most, the most-is-more-than-less-is-more-than-more pager, so I downloaded an RPM for Red Hat something and installed it (this is still on SuSE). Works fine. So I decided to try something a little more complicated. I downloaded amiwm, the Amiga look-alike window manager, for Mandriva. It depends on xloadimage, mandrake-desk, and ksh; mandrake-desk depends on mandrake-themes.
So I downloaded them all (from a variety of different distros’ rpm repositories, and a variety of versions of those distros) and am sitting here typing this in a Firefox window managed by amiwm.
All that proves is that you got lucky.
For example, yesterday I needed an application to read Windows .CHM files on Linux. Why don’t you go ahead and try running the Fedora RPMs for xCHM on PCLOS?
I’ll check back on you tomorrow night once you’ve given up and decided to just compile the damn thing …
I mean are you trying to convince us that you have *never* run into dependency issues with RPM packages before?
This is why new linux users often become dissolutioned, because experienced users try to create an illusion that these issues don’t exist.
Edited 2006-08-28 06:57
Ahhh, ESR. He writes one book that happens to have some good stuff in it and everyone seems to thinkhe knows it all.
Mucking about with DRM and closed formats like Windows Media is a game open source cannot afford to play, simply because when Microsoft decides they don’t want Windows Media to be supported on Linux anymore it won’t be.
As usual, he’s missing the point. If supporting closed media formats was the barometer for desktop Linux success then Freespire and Linspire would be the most popular distributions in the world, and the floodgates would open. As it is, it isn’t.
The truth is, ESR, like many others, hasn’t got a clue what is required for desktop Linux success so he latches on to the subject of closed media formats.
But it doesn’t stop there. If you really want to make Linux mass-market friendly, you are going to need to change a heap of other things – naming conventions (/root, /var, /usr, etc.), permissions, program names and so forth. Suddenly, what you have is no longer Linux.
Sorry, but this is a total canard. Arguably, you could hide some of the complexity by removing read permissions for non-root users from the root directory (I’ve tried it; stuff would still work), however, you lose path completion and the ability to browse through a path, of course.
Secondly, Permissions in Linux are an order of magnitude more simple to understand than in Windows. The fact that XP basically ignores permissions (an oversimplification, but not so you miss the point) is why virus and spyware writers call Windows home.
Thirdly, the Windows directory structure is a total mess: How many programs install directly into “Program Files”? Certainly a lot of legacy ones don’t. (This breaks completely if you have more than one drive/partition and choose to install everything on D:, E: etc). How many people would know how to navigate from C: to My Documents? What the hell is windowssystem32? What the hell is windowssystem32command? What is that funny “” symbol? (Maybe I have a few of the details wrong, I’m doing this from stale memory.) How do you tell a user who has never seen Windows before what the connexion is between “Microsoft Excel, Outlook, and Powerpoint” and spreadsheets, email/calendaring/contacts, and presentations? What the hell is “unzip” or “Winzip” or, for that matter “Object Desktop”?
Thirdly, analysts have been saying for years that if Microsoft want Windows to be taken seriously in the enterprise market (and I mean the kind of Enterprise market that UNIX runs in) they are going to have to get rid of the silly drive letter thing. And guess what? They haven’t and there’s no indication they’re going to.
[Edit: Something Funny happened on the way to the formatting: The site seems to have stripped out all the backslashes that should be there.]
Edited 2006-08-27 03:02
To whomever’s wasting time and votes modding down all my posts: mod away! it looks like you ascribe far more importance to my posts than is probably warranted, anyway.
Heh, not to mention wasting my last three votes attempting to undo some of the mod troll’s work.
Edited 2006-08-27 05:55
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Thanks, I appreciate that!
I have never had any luck with xCHM either. One application being crap proves nothing other than that application is crap.
On Saturday I tried to install Epson printer drivers for Windows XP on Windows XP Professional from an Epson driver disk. Needless to say, the outcome of the story is that they didn’t work. Oh yeah, we eventually got it working, but only after downloading drivers from the net, and we deleted (uninstalled) all the Epson stuff and got an error when it tried to uninstall the main driver packages.
I once had to replace hardware because a killer Windows virus got in before I was able to download a virus checker.
No doubt “all this proves is I got unlucky.”
I’ll check back on you tomorrow night once you’ve given up and decided to just compile the damn thing …
Are you trying to tell us that “compile && make && make install” is difficult? You must not type letters much.
I mean are you trying to convince us that you have *never* run into dependency issues with RPM packages before?
No, you’re trying to convince us that Windows’ problems are a delusion/myth created by Linux users.
This is why linux users often become disillusioned with Windows, because Windows users try to create an illusion that these issues don’t exist.
I have never had any luck with xCHM either. One application being crap proves nothing other than that application is crap.
Actually, xCHM is OK once you sort out the dependency issues it has, which is kind of my point. And it isn’t the only application I’ve had this issue with, it’s just the latest one. I’ve also had similar issues with AMSN and the latest version of K3B.
Are you trying to tell us that “compile && make && make install” is difficult? You must not type letters much.
No, I’m not saying I find it diffucult, but that it would be difficult for a beginner. Having to do this is not acceptable, and when you compare it to MSI technology in Windows, it just doesn’t stack up.
… got an error when it tried to uninstall the main driver packages. I once had to replace hardware because a killer Windows virus got in before I was able to download a virus checker.
Virus problems and driver issues are hardly relevant to a conversation about installer technologies.
Edited 2006-08-29 04:43