Slashdot runs an (unconfirmed so far though) story regarding Dell and other PC sellers, literally taking orders from Microsoft, that effectively from Aug, 26, are not allowed to sell PCs without an OS pre-installed. The rule does not specifically speak about not installing alternative OSes, but about having an OS always installed in the sold hardware. We should not forget the related Be, Inc.’s suit against Microsoft for the destruction of Be’s business resulting from the anticompetitive business practices of Microsoft. Our Take: IF true, Microsoft is gone too far and they should answer for it or recall this rule to the hardware vendors immediately. I like some of Microsoft’s technology, but their business practices continue to be as smelly as ever. UPDATE: We contacted MicroTel‘s Rich Hindman regarding their “no OS” PCs sold through Wal-Mart, and here is what he replied for the OSNews readers:“We haven’t been given such a directive from Microsoft nor has there been any conversations regarding the no OS requirement from them to Microtel. I speak with Microsoft about every two weeks via telephone and email and we visit with each other monthly and it never comes up in the meeting. The conversations with microsoft stem around “how can we help Microtel sell more Microsoft product”.
If such a directive were indeed given by Microsoft, it would seem to prohibit the freedom of choice. Microtel is about providing customers with the “power of choice”. There are other alternative operating systems in the world that are equally as good or better than the Microsoft operating systems. — Rich“
Microshaft always whines when the government or others try to control their business ventures. So, for us morons, please explain why it is okay for them to dictate to other companies how they sell their product?
It is the same double standard which always causes issues in goverment, business, and personal lives. How much wasted time, life, and materials does it take for people to lose the double standard?
Luckily, I build my own machines so this will not affect me in the least.
I guess this really leaves only Wal-Mart standing out there fighting the beast? There is obviously a market for these machines or Microsoft would not be so up in arms over them. Maybe this makes room for some more vendors to step in and throw down Wal-Mart stylee, or leaves room for Wal-Mart to expand their product line.
It is not Wal-Mart, it is MicrotelPC that sells these PCs without an OS. Wal-Mart is just a reseller of MicrotelPC.com. Problem is, that MicrotelPC *does* have some other products (sold elsewhere, not at Walmart’s) that include Windows. If Dell got that cease and deceased letter from Microsoft, it is very-very likely that MicrotelPC got it too, as they also are Microsoft’s OEM resellers.
Which means that they might not be able to offer these “no OS” PCs to WalMart anymore.
This page suggests that Dell are not going to give up on Linux
http://www.dell.com/us/en/esg/topics/linux_linuxhome.htm
but you will not be able to buy a PC with no OS. If you don’t want
Microsoft from Dell, you will get Red Hat, factory installed.
>>
New Microsoft contract rules stipulate that we can no longer offer the “NO OS” option to our customers beyond September 1st.
>>
This is a somehow cryptic message to me, and it will remain like that unless I know exactly what are those new contract rules. I guess it will be an OEM pricing rule, punishing those OEMs who sell PCs without a Microsoft OS installed. Whatever it is, we can expect the worse from Microsoft with great probabilities of hitting the predator monopolist target.
Microsoft is vulnerable right now. The hardware companies should get together and tell MS to shove it.
> This is a somehow cryptic message to me, and it will remain like that unless I know exactly what are those new contract rules
These contract rules will NEVER get to public, because they are under NDA. Microsoft always NDA their contracts. I know this for a fact.
When it is confirmed, and re-confirmed.
As for NDA, there cannot be NDA with the government, if the parties respect the deal they have presently?
That the contract is a NDA, shall have little or none meaning to the USA Government, when we are talking about a convicted monopolist, and the scope of the contract is the same anticompetitive scope for which Microsoft has been convicted and is still waiting for the Sentence ruling the consecuences. Legally, that abusive NDA is not enforceable by any of the parties. Specially not now.
Those contract rules HAVE already gone public, and HAVE to be revised by the competent public Administration once more.
Can they still computers with Linux?
If so, Linux may have the most to gain from this. Vendors can circumvent the agreement by instead offering the computers with Linux for free or close to free.
at what point to people say “hey, i’ve had enough of the dirty tricks”, and stop using microsoft products?
i’ve heard people on this board before laugh at others (notably linux folk) who don’t use microsoft products for ‘ideological’ reasons, to which i don’t quite see the rationale. microsoft have ‘cool tech’ because they ruin any chance of competition by any fair means, re. the beos lawsuit. windowsXP may be a cool OS for the masses but is it justifiable considering the ventures lost courtesy of microsoft’s shitty business tactics? nike might comfy trainers but i’d feel guilty wearing them, because of ideological reasons.
my point? at what point is the breaking point for people to say, “hey, this microsoft company has gone too damned far this time!”? at what point do we refuse to have anything to do with a company that ‘ideologically’ stinks?
As I see it the breaking point is that offering a sustainable alternative, people should not be caught in the middle of this free competition fight with Microsoft.
I like companies with the minimum of ideology, and it is not really about ideology, it is about not breaking the Law, I hope we can share that ‘ideology’. And about enforcing that Law. Keep in mind that most people need Microsoft products, basically because of the self-feeding nature of the problem. So let’s not take hostages. Let’s always look for the Rule of Law.
“Microshaft always whines when the government or others try to control their business ventures. So, for us morons, please explain why it is okay for them to dictate to other companies how they sell their product?”
m$ could make the argument that they are enforcing the provisions of a contract.
if you decide to open a Subway franchise, you are contractually bound to maintain certain standards.
dell and other oems have a contract with m$ about how to do business.
m$ does not have any such contract with the gov’t per se.
bill gates is often applauded.
does anyone here think he is an ethical man?
I am not sure that Gates might or might have something to do with all the little or even big decisions taken at Microsoft today. He is the chairman these days, but that doesn’t mean that he run the company solely, as he did 20 years ago, or that he was involved a lot, as he did 10 years ago. These days is a bit more relaxed in his relationship with Microsoft.
If Linux or any non-ms OS is ever going to get a strong foothold into the computing market someone needs to create a non-ms oem. Most of the major PC sellers have refused to sell machines with a non-ms operating system for years and some are even now refusing to sell machines without a OS installed. Someone needs to launch a non-ms oem for the realms of people who want a non-ms box, but don’t want to have to build the machine and install the OS. While it would be better to get a foothold into a major company in time a non-ms oem could play an important role in bringing ms alternatives to the masses.
I still use windows as my main OS, but I never actually buy any of the copies I use. I don’t like to think that I am just leeching, so I usually use the opportunity to buy a new boxed Linux distro or renew my Mandrake Club subscription.
i agree, the breaking point is related to how easy it would be for someone to ‘cross over’ to another OS. at the moment, it isn’t easy, linux is not really for the faint of heart. the breaking point is probably, quite high!
however, let’s not blur the distinction between what is ideological and what is illegal. there is an unhealthy symbiosis between the two and microsoft at the moment is displaying this connection quite alarmingly.
anyways…
Will Dell and other OEMs really let microsoft dictate things in this fashion? What about us consumers, are we going to sit down and let all this crap happen, after all the crap from Enron, Worldcom and the rest? What the hell is happening with American businesses?
If MS can tell OEMs what to sell and not sell, the next logical step obviously is to repeat what they already did in the past – stop OEMs from selling systems with non Windows Oses pre-installed. And if both of these can happen, you can easily see how it can easily become eventually to sell white boxes.
Take a long view and ask yourself why MS is doing this now. As I write this from this incredible Limbo 2, something tells me that MS will need to fight tooth-and-nail if they wish to maintain their choking hold on the desktop. For all we know, things may be about the change in the desktop space.
>>>bill gates is often applauded.
>>>does anyone here think he is an ethical man?
Yes. You must separate Bill Gates from Microsoft.
Microsoft doesn’t want to distribute dividends and expense stock options for tax reasons. Bill Gates and his father lobbied the US Congress to keep the estates tax.
Microsoft donates software to schools to further extend their lead in the education market. Bill Gates donates $23 billion to improve world health (and he intends to donate 90%+ of his wealth to charity).
A man’s worth can be best viewed by looking at his family and his friends. Happily married with 2 children and no divorces. He ain’t divorced numerous times, neither is he dating supermodels and building his hhome as a samuri castle. Warren Buffett is his best friend.
> linux is not really
> for the faint of heart.
Every passing day takes the truth out of that statement. Why do you think Redhat is re-entering the desktop market? Right now, all the desktops and distributions are giving a lot of attention to useability issues. Things are getting better by the day. The competition between Gnome and KDE is about to heat up again, which is a nice thing. And between Linux and OS X, microsoft may have to fight to retain its current hold on the desktop.
M$
i’m not saying that linux will not eventually become a ‘friendly’ OS, it’s obvious that steps are being taken to ensure that, it’s just to me, it hasn’t quite reached the level of windows, or beos, or mac yet. yet, being the operative word. i don’t doubt that there will be a linux that is as easy to use as a glass of water but it just isn’t there yet. but i take your point.
NOT in the uk they don’t……see:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26606.html
I would call the OEMs gutless.
Anyways I can’t stand most of their advertising,
The DELL dude kid, the Gateway Cow, the IBM stiffs in the mall, the Compaq wherehouse ad. If 1 or 2 of these disappeared, I would care less. Notice that the IBM mall ad shows only blank screens, barely mentioning the OS.
I do like the IBM Linux server ads, with the what happened to all the computers though etc.
Mow if OEMs have to include an OS other than Windows & lets say thats RH, now I can choose to pay taxes to MS or RH.
I will stick with plain mobos for ever. After all you can move most of the previous components across.
Time for me to make another batch of Win 2000 Pro and XP pro CDs
Every time I get annoyed at Microsoft, I give away a few thousand pounds of their bestselling software..makes me feel so much better.
MS will justify this by saying that they are worried about piracy since a computer is virtually worthless w/o an OS, and MS is afraid that someone will buy an OS-less system and install a pirated copy of windows on their machine…
not saying this is right…but it sounds like a good justification to the average joe especially with all this “Napster-style” piracy crap being publicized by the recording companies…
personally, i don’t see this as being being a huge blow to Linux users…this doesn’t say you have to install an MS OS…just an OS…could be anything that’ll run on the hardware
just my $0.02
-bytes256
I dont see a Linux user really wanting a Dell box anyway.
Dell make quality hardware.. but it is extremely difficult to do anything more than put a few PCI cards and some RAM into a Dell.. Motherboards are nonstandard and not even ATX.. No jumpers on a lot of models, so you cant upgrade the processor.. and the price point is a bit high to reflect the stylish design
I’d always self build. a Dell looks good and is a safe bet as a workstation, but its hardly a hackers PC
Dell make quality hardware…
I don’t think so, and their tech support people are often times bumbling stooges.
My company bought me a Dell laptop. It crashes and shuts down on average once an hour. About once a week the registry gets corrupted during one of these crashes.
I sent it via UPS back to Dell, who then called me to say they sent it back to me because there wasn’t a problem with the machine. Last I checked, UPS is not in the business of busting open packages and making technical repairs. Sure enough, when I receive the laptop back, within an hour it shuts down.
…a Dell looks good and is a safe bet as a workstation…
It’s a safe bet as a doorstop or a small sled, but that’s about it.
I dont see a Linux user really wanting a Dell box anyway.
Well, maybe that’s true for home users, but business and academic users (big bucks) buy their linux machines from Dell.
I admire Bill for being the most effective businessman of our generation. He did want he wanted and amassed a giant fortune.
He also is a liar, a thief, and a cheat.
Unfortunately this is synonymous with “modern American capitalist”.
And in reality, Microsoft is no different than 99% of the companies on Wall Street.
They are all corrupt, greedy, and unethical.
So yes, I admire him. He is the best.
#m
I don’t think you can really make the case that the leader of a company that practices such illegal and sleazy business tactics is ethical. If he were, then he would stop it. Incidentally 23 million is pocket change to the richest man in the world, and let us not forget that MS was sued for keeping a perpetual stream of “contract employees” on for years and years at a time. No mr. gates is obviously not ethical and giving away a few cents or making one positive contribution does not excuse him from his company’s and hence his own dispictable behavior.
Since it was introduced in the story,anyone know what is up with the be, inc. lawsuit. Any news. Has anything happened yet? Bill has a nice cash fund over there at Microblows and i hope that be is awarded a nice fat chunk of it. Civil suits are one way to make MS feel the pain of their tactics.
havn’t they come close to a (fairly lame as i remember) settlement in the antitrust case? sounds like another should be brewing. how much more monopolistic power can MS shove on the world’s largest computer company(i believe)?
“how much more monopolistic power can MS shove on the world’s largest computer company(i believe)?”
as much as MS wants. the pc companies are the biggest most compliant bunch of wimps you’ll ever find. They will do as MS says. Business is not about courage it is about profits. The status quo makes profits, well at least for dell.
I don’t think Dell would issue a formal communication with an obvious typo (“effect” where it should be “affect”).
Slashdot gets trolled like this from time to time.
Really, if all the major hardware companies got together and told MS to shove it, what would MS do then? They would have to back off. In the large scheme of things, MS has been dominant only for a split second. They can fall, they are mortal. Those hardware companies should not only tell MS to shove it, but that they won’t put Windows on their computers at all unless MS cuts the price in half and they can pass that along to their customers. It sounds crazy in a way, I know, but if all those major hardware companies stuck together and did that, MS would be dead in the water. They would be begging Walmart and Microtel to put Windows on their offerings <g>.
Michael, I also admire Jack the Ripper, he was a very talented assasin that committed at least 4 perfect crimes, but by no means I would applaud what he did. I wish he had been discovered and executed.
Gates certainly deserves admiration also and no applause. Admiration in a very very different category from the one in which we find George Boole, C. Babagge, Hollerith, Turing, Atanasoff, Von Neumann, Kilby, Bardeen, Brattain, Shockley, C. Berkeley, E. Hoff, Ivan Sutherland, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson, Douglas Engelbart, Alan Kay, Gary Kildall, Jack Tramiel, Steven Wozniak, Berners-Lee…and many more that deserve our most sincere admiration for their unvaluable exemplary contributions to the computing era that we know.
Bill Gates deserves to be in a very different museum, or at least not in the same room of the cited computing giants. He has always been and is a computing burden, a very rich ‘dwarf’, a public enemy. Let’s admire how smart he is and then, instead of applauding, let’s kick his ass.
Jay,
You hit the nail on the head.
Reread, rinse, repeat.
They are truly gutless wonders.
In the large scheme of things, MS has been dominant only for a split second.
If you consider the scheme of things to be the length of the existance of the universe, then your are correct. If you cosider the scheme of things to be the existance of personal computers, then microsoft has been dominant for eons.
‘
“let’s kick his ass.”
I couldn’t agree more. Linux/OS X/OBOS i’ll suport them all.
It’s 23 BILLION dollars, not 23 million dollars. And don’t get any ideas about writing stupid theories that somehow Bill Gates is going to recoup that money back by making Microsoft more “media friendly” thru his charity.
Bill Gates owns 12% of Microsoft. In order to make the $23 billion back, Microsoft’s market cap has to increase from friday’s close at $260 billion to $450 billion.
As for Be’s lawsuit, they are still in front of the court debating on whether the lawsuit should be transfer to the State of Maryland.
>>>Really, if all the major hardware companies got together and told MS to shove it, what would MS do then?
Then the hardware companies will be accused of forming a cartel, and thus will violate anti-trust laws.
With respect to this thing about Dell, the OEM contract and pricing schemes is the same for all the OEM’s and it is in accordance with the federal settlement. The federal government looked it over, and ok it.
With respect to Microtel, they won’t be under the same contract as Dell because if you follow the anti-trust settlement — the OEM contract that applies to Dell is ok’ed by the US Dept of Justice for the top 10 or top 20 OEM’s in the world. And I don’t think Microtel is one of the top 20 OEM’s in the world.
There is no prove behind this claim. Microsoft wouldn’t dare to this especially when the anti trust rulling is nearing. Its stupid, unfounded.
Besides, Eugenia, Be kill themselves. Microsoft may have play a part in their death, but if Be was in better hands, it would be alive.
aono, I see your point. But, they could just say, individualy and truthfully, that Microsoft’s terms for doing business are unacceptable.
SSA there are some non MS OEMs:
http://qlilinux.com/
http://www.penguincomputing.com/
Few OEMs are in a position to refuse Microsoft, for three reasons.
First, demand for Windows is still high. Microsoft captialises on this in their contracts with OEMs: ship all your desktops and/or laptops with Windows, and you get reduced pricing for OEM licenses per-box.
Considering the hyper-competitive world of OEMs these days, by shipping computers that don’t conform to their contract, they increase the price on those that do. That cost passes on to consumers, half of whom find another supplier since they beat their price by US$100-$200. That would be enough for some OEMs to go out of business.
Second, Microsoft has the money and the moxy to make their own brand of computers. Stopping the supply of Windows-installed workstations from OEMs wouldn’t happen overnight, and a short delay is all Microsoft needs to ramp up production.
Third, while alternatives like ‘premier’ Linux distributions and various open-source BeOS projects have become more attractive, they still have a ways to go to become the well-rounded system that Windows XP is on the technical and compatibility fronts.
Now, it’s true that a number of OEMs hate having to support Windows, and can tie ~ 33% of their support costs to it. Can the alternatives do better? If not, right away that provides a big disincentive for OEMs to switch. As far as it goes, MacOS X is just about there with the Jaguar release, and don’t we have sooo many people just wishing it would run on x86 chips, even though x86 should already be obsolete…
Of course, the OEMs are secretly cheering the efforts of ventures like MicroTel / Lindows, and a more broad market education on the value of computing diversity, since that can get them out of this mess. How soon these efforts come to fruition is anyones’ guess.
>>>Of course, the OEMs are secretly cheering the efforts of ventures like MicroTel / Lindows, and a more broad market education on the value of computing diversity, since that can get them out of this mess. How soon these efforts come to fruition is anyones’ guess.
I think the OEM’s are secretly cheering for a different reason. It drains MicroTel’s resources on this lost cause and eventually MicroTel will go down in flames and therefore better for the other OEM’s. It’s like VA Linux selling computer hardware. OEM’s cheers that VA’s hardware division making all kinds of noises and meanwhile IBM and Dell just cut off VA’s legs by undercutting VA’s price.
Cost of windows XP pro: about $300
Cost of Microtel PC w/ Linux: about $300
Obviously removing the cost of windows has huge advantages.
>Obviously removing the cost of windows has huge advantages.
Not really. OEMs buy Windows XP PRO for $25-29 USD (yes, I know about some of the actual OEM prices), not for $300. And these OEMs do not resell Windows, they just include it on their hardware, so obviously, the overall cost of adding Windows on a machine is about $30 for them.
I’m suddenly stricken by the curiosity of knowing which components brands are included in both systems, DELL’s and Microtel’s.
The only brand that it is clearly pointed out is that of the CPU. Which is/are the brand/s of?:
-the SDRAM memory sticks,
-Motherboard,
-Hard disk,
-Graphic card,
-Floppy drive,
-CD-ROM or CD-RW drives,
-and even of the Power supplies.
I’m leaving out the Case brand, more difficult than the rest to identify sometimes, and of less economic importance within these PC desktops. The monitor is often sold apart.
Although an AMD representative recently testified in favour of Microsoft (fortunately in a disastrous way), the first thing to note is that all current DELL Desktops (Dimension 8200, Dimension 4500, Dimension 4500S, Dimension 2200, SmartStep 150D) have Intel inside. And that all Dell PCs use genuine Microsoft® Windows.
From knowing this maybe we learn a little more of those who are able to favor consumers choice and of those who seem having no choice but to pair with Microsoft predatory tactics. Or maybe it doesn’t matter much in the every PC sold pays Microsoft equation.
While Microsoft’s WindowsXP pricing for OEM manufacturers are a confidential matter, it is public knowledge (obtained from the court transcripts of the anti-trust trial) that Microsoft offers OEM’s the same OEM price for both WindowsME and WindowsXP. That number is in the low double-digit.
I can’t believe so many people are taking an anti-ms article from slashdot at face value. I mean no one here is dumb enough to assume a pro-ms anti-linux site to give them the goods on linux would they? btw ms wouldn’t pull anything like this because similar practices already caused the be lawsuit so why would they escalate matters while fighting that suit and 9 states on anti-trust charges? Think people.
I need no freaking Dell!!!
genaldar, I think most of us are talking about what MS has done in the past. This article – true or not – has sparked that discussion and just a theoretical discussion of what the positions and possibilites are for OEM’s.
To anyone who says that this couldn’t happen because MS has been beaten down in the anti trust case(s).
Firstly I think this logic is flawed, secondly you are creating the very room for them to do this in the future.
Common, lets try and be critical of both sides and not believe either way without proof. They do deserve to be treated as innocent until/if there is evedence to prove this. This IS different from saying it didn’t happen and couldn’t happen however. As always the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
This concept is an important one (even though watching the news the american govt seems to be ditching it lately??).
..are something I have no experience in. I work in industry accounts in the UK, based near Dell’s head office in Reading, Berkshire… in my last 5 jobs I have used a lot of Dell PCs – P133vs, Optiplex’s, Dimensions.. in fact all but one of those positions meanst using a Dell.
Never had any problems with any of them, they didnt crash, overheat, make a lot of noise ( Dimension Pentium 1 and 2 models dont have onboard fans, just a massive heatsink, making them the quietest PCs you can buy )
Maybe they did make a few duff laptops.. but as I said, I think Dell make a good product, comparable to Apple in the build-quality league. A lot of friends have Dells, and apart from the annoyance at realising that they can’t be upgraded, few have had any problems at all.
Phyax :As far as it goes, MacOS X is just about there with the Jaguar release, and don’t we have sooo many people just wishing it would run on x86 chips, even though x86 should already be obsolete…
Even if Jaguar ran on x86 processor, it would still only run on Apple’s hardware. And trust me, Apple has never been good in cutting prices, so therefore you can’t except cheaper hardware than from tier one OEMs. A move from PPC to x86 would be purely of performance reasons.
Phyax :Of course, the OEMs are secretly cheering the efforts of ventures like MicroTel / Lindows, and a more broad market education on the value of computing diversity, since that can get them out of this mess. How soon these efforts come to fruition is anyones’ guess.
OEMs don’t cheer on an competitor. Microtel bundles Lindows.com and Mandrake. Supporting these both would be higher than Windows, like it or not. As for Lindows, most OEMs don’t even care about them. Well, currently, they are insignificant to the market. And even if their product is good, there are cheaper altenatives to Lindows out there.
Being an brother of an ex-OEM, nobody cheers an competitor, unless they are heading to bankruptcy.
Jim: Cost of windows XP pro: about $300
The retail actually cost $400 (at least in US). OEM cost much more less (Home cost around $40 for small OEMs, don’t know about the exact price for big OEMs). So if Microtel actually added Windows, the price would go up by $40-50 only.
Eugenia: Not really. OEMs buy Windows XP PRO for $25-29 USD […]
This is for big OEMs that sell in volumes. I wouldn’t categorize Microtel as that. I would say 40-50 bucks.
m: I’m suddenly stricken by the curiosity of knowing which components brands are included in both systems, DELL’s and Microtel’s. […]
Not really. For most of the components, except the hard disk, Dell manufacturer it in house (or maybe some taiwanese contractor). Microtel uses off-the-shelf parts like most small OEMs do.
m: Although an AMD representative recently testified in favour of Microsoft (fortunately in a disastrous way), the first thing to note is that all current DELL Desktops (Dimension 8200, Dimension 4500, Dimension 4500S, Dimension 2200, SmartStep 150D) have Intel inside.
Dell is smart. Intel is a household name. Intel paid big bucks to get brand recogniction. AMD on the other hand spent its money on smaller scale campaigns that combined together doesn’t have the same effect as Intel’s. Intel have TV ads to promote its *brandname*, AMD has TV ads promoting its *products*.
~Seedy~: Maybe they did make a few duff laptops.. […}
I wouldn’t exactly call their laptops duff. I never had a problem with them. In the pass, Dell appears to have not understood the market by making extra bulky laptops with high power consumption, but that has pretty much change. Sure, I would anyday take a IBM laptop over a Dell one, but nontheless, Dell is much better than Toshiba and Twinhead. 🙂
rajan r: Even if Jaguar ran on x86 processor, it would still only run on Apple’s hardware.
Certainly. That hasn’t stopped people posting of their dreams of having MacOS X running on their existing hardware, even though most have accepted by now that it’s simply not going to happen.
rajan r: OEMs don’t cheer on an competitor. Microtel bundles Lindows.com and Mandrake. Supporting these both would be higher than Windows, like it or not. As for Lindows, most OEMs don’t even care about them. Well, currently, they are insignificant to the market. And even if their product is good, there are cheaper altenatives to Lindows out there.
And there will never be a market bigger than what Linux distributions already have unless businesses like Microtel go ahead and actively push them.
As it stands, OEMs have one real choice for OS on desktops and laptops: Windows. I find it very hard to believe that they are not worried about this situation, and that they wouldn’t prefer to have more options.
As you said, OEMs don’t care about Microtel / Lindows from a competition perspective. And the big OEMs hardly feel threatened by Microtel. If you’re another OEM, what’s not to secretly cheer about? After all, you can always get on the wagon later if it proves successful, and if not you still have Microsoft’s good graces.
“If Linux or any non-ms OS is ever going to get a strong foothold into the computing market someone needs to create a
non-ms oem. ”
Is there any need? If you can’t build one yourself, any local computer
repair shop will assemble a PC for you to order. I can think of three
within easy walking distance of here.
Getiing a locally made PC is a big advantage if it needs servicing as
you can just take it back to the shop.
It is funny to see so many educated, well informed people getting angry over a rumor, or just a plain email which someone’s sys admin friend claims to get it from a dell representative, who may or may not know exactly what’s going on at all.
It is also sad to see so many people who hate microsoft not thinking clearly too. Even this news is true, it is not so easy to blame microsoft for being anti competitive. Actually as you see in Slashdot, even though the email says “No os” the title is “Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o Microsoft OS”, so it is very clear that Slashdot has different purposes. Also for the “No Os” issue, it may be ok for Microsoft to do that, because Microsoft is selling an operating system, and for preventing anti piracy it may require its contractors to put an os. It is very logical for Microsoft to do that.
For example, if Apple was making its money from Software, do you believe that it will sell macs without an os, no way. Actually it is not selling without an os now too, also you can not order a mac with linux installed only. So Apple is actually worse than Microsoft? Right?
OEMs complained that the DOJ settlement guidelines could actually make things worse because they required common contracts (all the same mostly).
Since MSFT gives best pricing on their contracts that require their OS on all boxes they are now required by their settlement to force that requirement on all OEMs of a similar tier…. like Dell or HP or IBM etc.
This requirement could have been modified by the DOJ but it was this way at one time.
I was defending the Dell brand .. someone way up around post 10 said that Dell laptops weren’t good.. as I said, Can’t comment on what I havent used.
Just as a point of info, MS sells retail XP Pro for $299 and Home Edition for $199.
Sergio, I think this story…or rumor or whatever it is…is not what most people are posting about. It is a reaction (and I’ve reacted too) to what MS has done in the past. You see, MS has been anti-competitive in the past – big time. And, when something like this comes out, it’s another red flag, true or untrue. But, you see, even if it is true, but MS is just concerned about piracy, it is still ridiculous. Who is Microsoft to tell hardware companies they *have* to have an OS on their systems? What right do they have to make a demand like that?. None. If I am Microtel or any hardware company like Dell, if I want to sell computers that have no OS, that’s my right. MS has no business making demands, if true, such as that.
I think, whether the story proves to be true or not, there is enough evidence of wrong doing that Microsoft upper management belongs in prison.
“Who is Microsoft to tell hardware companies they *have* to have an OS on their systems?”
I’d assume that Microsoft and Dell have a contract. If Microsoft puts it in the contract and Dell *agrees* to it, then why not? You’d think someone like Dell would have the guts to say no, but if it makes sense for them to enter such an agreement then they have the right to do so. All Dell (or any other OEM) has to do is to buy a copy of Linux and put that on every box they don’t want to ship with Windows. That costs them a few bucks once every few months (a new release of that Linux distro comes out).
I also don’t buy the argument that they can’t afford not to ship Windows on their computers. If anything it would open the customer’s eyes to the true costs of the Windows that is installed on all those PCs.
But I think the agreement is good for Dell, otherwise they wouldn’t do it. Unless they all are really dumb. If that’s the case then I can only applaud Microsoft for taking advantage of it.
On 2002-08-11 12:49:47 Sergio wrote:
>It is funny to see so many educated, well informed people >getting angry over a rumor, or just a plain email which >someone’s sys admin friend claims to get it from a dell >representative, who may or may not know exactly what’s >going on at all.
Educated, well informed people do have a tendency to get angry over issues that repeatedly irritate them like Microsofts illegal monopolistic ways. When you consider Microsoft’s past actions and the fact that history tends to repeat itself, it’s understandable.
>It is also sad to see so many people who hate microsoft not >thinking clearly too. Even (if) this news is true, it is >not so easy to blame microsoft for being anti competitive.
I and others do find it easy. They’ve done this sort of thing before and certainly could do it again.
>Actually as you see in Slashdot, even though the email says >”No os” the title is “Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o >Microsoft OS”, so it is very clear that Slashdot has >different purposes.
Yes, those naughty sensationalists grabing the headlines over the weekend like that!
>Also for the “No Os” issue, it may be ok for Microsoft to >do that, because Microsoft is selling an operating system, >and for preventing anti piracy it may require its >contractors to put an os. It is very logical for Microsoft >to do that.
Yes. As convicted felons, they should squash the “No Os” before it becomes too popular. As a competitor to MS’s OS, I can see how Microsoft would feel threatened by this non-existant OS.
>”For example, if Apple was making its money from Software, >do you believe that it will sell macs without an os, no >way.”
There isn’t any way this could work. Unless you’re a fool, you aren’t going to pay the high costs for underpowered Apple hardware to run Linux on it. It’s target market has always been the artsy-fartsy, prima donna and form before function crowd – a lucretive but nitch market.
>Actually it is not selling without an os now too, also you >can not order a mac with linux installed only. So Apple is >actually worse than Microsoft? Right?
Unless you’re using it for an expensive plant stand, it only runs Linux and MacOS today. A month from now Apple may decide that Linux is out and it’s MacOS only. So yes, Apple is worse than Microsoft because it’s a 100% HW/SW proprietary solution that they control. However, because their market share is so small it doesn’t matter. Apple would just love to be in Microsofts position and maybe if they try harder perhaps someday they will be there.
>>>>I think, whether the story proves to be true or not, there is enough evidence of wrong doing that Microsoft upper management belongs in prison.
The OEM contract has been ok’ed by the US Department of Justice in accordance to the settlement agreement.
Regarding this much earlier comment:
“at what point do we refuse to have anything to do with a company that ‘ideologically’ stinks?”
Right now would be nice. Seriously. Each person decided to do it when they’re ready, whether others follow them or not. That may make the transition more painful for the one making it, but ideological struggles are seldom without pain and sacrifice. If this were not the case, it wouldn’t be an ideological struggle at all.
Incidentally, quick money-where-mouth-is moment: I used BeOS exclusively until I bought new hardware that couldn’t run it (because I am a moron). It wasn’t worth it for me to spend more money for more hardware OR go back to using my old machine (I’d already given it to a relative, and who wants to open that door?) so I decided to stick with the new gear and use Linux. Every other month I uninstall Windows 2000 or throw in a second hard drive and install Linux, then the next month I need a tool that Windows 2000 has and Linux does not, and I reinstall it or pull out the second hard drive. The struggle and sacrifice is not yet worth it for me. On the other hand, I use Mozilla and OpenOffice daily (and Opera and GobeProductive 3 on occasion), and try to buy my software from smaller companies instead of big ones (Quicken being the exception to this rule).
Whew. Okay, I’m done.
If Microsoft is insisting on installing “any” OS & not specifically requiring the companies to install M$ OS’s, I think this might be a step towards ensuring lesser piracy of their OSs.
This is also a good oppurtunity to bundle complete Linux installations & apps on these systems. Most of the normal users of these systems would prefer some OS or the other pre-installed on their system. If they can buy a PC with no OS on it at a cheaper rate, there is a better chance that they might get a pirated copy of M$ OS instead of Linux.
Read carefully people…
The email message circulated is apparently an *internal* memo dealing with procedures, not a statement to customers limiting choices. Notice that it explicitly states that systems will be available with no OS, only they will be labeled as a different system.
So here’s the deal as it looks from here:
Old method: I want a “SuperBox GXT” system with no OS. On the website or with the Dell salesperson, I request a “SuperBox GXT” with no OS.
New method: I want a “SuperBox GXT” system with no OS. On the website or with the Dell saleperson, I request a “SuperBox GXT/n” and it comes with no OS.
What’s the diff? Why all the fuss?