The server market was slapped and dropped on its head during the first quarter of 2006. We haven’t seen anything quite like it since 2000. What’s the big shocker? Well, Sun Microsystems actually enjoyed one of the stronger runs during the first quarter by most metrics, while Dell proved one of the worst performers. Beyond the server vendor rumbles, AMD continued to gain gobs of share on Intel in the x86 processor market.
My former employer used Dell poweredge 6650 machines.
Sure they were fast, but they had some serious issues
with the perc controller, eventually, due to a bug in the firmware, the I/O will get bottlenecked. So what do you do? Flash the BIOS and run into another BUG. Well IBM and SUN moved in. Large enterprise shops are finally realizing that IBM, HP, and SUN have better hardware solutions to offer. The IBM Shark is faster and cheaper than the EMC equivalent, heck, SUN invented crossbar technology.
I am glade sun, is show signs of recovery. i have always liked SUN.
-Nex6
I don’t know how they are “stunning” anybody. Anybody with half a brain could have guessed the outcome. Sun is now selling competative servers compared to the rest of the world. No more $50000 beasts that run slower than a p133. It’s nearly impossible to find offerings at Sun’s price that are built as well as Sun’s gear. Heck, even if I didn’t use Solaris (and I am now) I’d buy Sun servers and slap on whatever I wanted to use, simply because the hardware is better.
Yes, I am aware that some of Sun’s HW offerings are re-badged *insert maker here*. However, you can get support contracts through Sun. End of story, nobody runs homebuilt stuff in mission critical environments without support contracts. Then, moving up to the T*00 line, you just can’t build that out of off-the-shelf hardware.
Add in the try-before-you-buy free evaluation they offer, and it’s a no-brainer to see why Sun went up.
Contrast with Dell, who sells crappy hardware full of issues. People are finally waking up in the IT world to see that “cheap” doesn’t equate to “good value.” Thank goodness for that.
Toss in Solaris 10, the people who’ve migrated because now they can give it a go for free on their *insert random pieces x86 box* at home (like me..) and you’ll see why Sun had higher sales. Again, there is no “stunning” involved here, it’s common sense. Better product, better value, demand exists == higher sales.
One of the things that I think contributed to Dell’s downfall is their poor support. We unfortunately inherited a PowerEdge 2650 purchased by a former web administrator (who knew absolutely nothing about selecting hardware). The machine ended up needing a second power supply, a second processor, four more disks and additional memory (one of those “cheap” servers).
I tried in vain to get the necessary part numbers to order the needed parts from Dell’s web site (nothing like SunSolve), so I ended up calling Dell. I initally spoke to the Federal Government rep who transfered me to another person, and he transfered me to a woman who gave me a bogus phone number and hung up! After four hours I finally spoke to someone from the Server Group who gave me the information I needed.
I was sent a customer survey where I made it clear that if this was an example of how Dell handles its customers, I would never purchase another Dell product again. I also made issue about trying to find part information on their web site. In my response I stated I could find part numbers for Sun equipment not manufactured for several years easily. Dell has made their own bed, now they can sleep in it!
Yes, I am aware that some of Sun’s HW offerings are re-badged *insert maker here*. However, you can get support contracts through Sun.
Actually, that is incorrect, their first ‘wave’ of opteron machines were rebadged, but when they bought out that start up with the former SUN ‘hardware guru’, they started to design ‘in house’ products.
The need to rebadge was more of an issue of ‘getting products to market with a SUN label’ than any other issue that surrounds the decision.
As for Opteron and SPARC; SPARC is getting pushed into areas where Opteron can’t compete whilst using Opteron where people need fast computation speed and high FPU/INT performance such as scientific computing, workstations and the like.
I see then continuing their SPARC workstation line until such time it becomes unprofitable – why kill a product line off if it is making money and the customers are happy?
While I do appreciate your intent, please don’t operate under the notion of “correcting” me.
My comment:
“Actually, that is incorrect, their first ‘wave’ of opteron machines were rebadged, but when they bought out that start up with the former SUN ‘hardware guru’, they started to design ‘in house’ products.”
Your comment:
“Actually, that is incorrect, their first ‘wave’ of opteron machines were rebadged, but when they bought out that start up with the former SUN ‘hardware guru’, they started to design ‘in house’ products.”
What I said was not incorrent, in fact you support my statement.
http://www.sun.com/servers/entry/v40z/index.jsp
The v40z is a Newisys, but rebadged. It is for sale, by Sun.
http://www.theregister.com/2004/06/25/sun_redhat_attack/
“The need to rebadge was more of an issue of ‘getting products to market with a SUN label’ than any other issue that surrounds the decision.”
Ok, I never discussed the logic behind rebadging, nor does it make any difference..
“As for Opteron and SPARC; SPARC is getting pushed into areas where Opteron can’t compete whilst using Opteron where people need fast computation speed and high FPU/INT performance such as scientific computing, workstations and the like.
I see then continuing their SPARC workstation line until such time it becomes unprofitable – why kill a product line off if it is making money and the customers are happy?”
Nobody is arguing that. Sun is pushing Opteron for low-end/cluster machines/FPU intensive tasks, and the “Niagra” based machines for bandwidth intensive/highly parallel tasks (with low FPU needs.)
As for the SPARC workstation line, they’ll keep it until the Rock (and future) chips come out with better FPU performance, then they’ll migrate to them. Which, I suppose, is SPARC. SPARC workstation line gets blown away by everything right now, but it still exists because of some of their large clients who require SPARC for various reasons (big government for example..)
In conclusion, if you want to state new facts and the such, by all means, please do. Just don’t “correct” me on things that aren’t incorrect.
I can’t seem to edit comments anymore, but I mis-pasted something. My original comment was:
“Yes, I am aware that some of Sun’s HW offerings are re-badged *insert maker here*. However, you can get support contracts through Sun.”
My apologies.
>What I said was not incorrent, in fact you support my statement.
>
>http://www.sun.com/servers/entry/v40z/index.jsp
>
>The v40z is a Newisys, but rebadged. It is for sale, by Sun.
It is true that the v20 and v40z’s were manufacturered by Newisys, but that doesn’t mean that they were bought at Fry’s and a new badge taped into the little square in the front. The hardware was designed with newisys but includes many features specific to Sun.
Easier than building from scratch? Absolutely. But that doesn’t make it trivial. Or that you can buy something 100% identical from a generic supplier.
Oh, and I’m not saying that you said so. Just pointing out what I think.
Sun has superior designs in terms of hardware and their emphasis on bandwidth (much more so than Dell and HP.) Sun now also has a winning strategy for their chipsets with UltraSPARC IV+, UltraSPARC T1, and AMD Opteron processors. In terms of Operating Systems, Solaris 10 beats all the other operating systems to a bloody pulp. However, you can still install Linux and Windows if you want and still get your system fully certified. Throughout all of Suns trouble, analysts kept telling Sun to drop their chipsets and operating system like IBM and HP were doing with theirs, but Sun went against it. Now, as a customer, I know if I buy anything from Sun, it will be supported through thick and thin. Solaris and Sparc are both safe choices. Contrast this with the flavor of the day CPU/OS that HP is releasing. Now why shouldn’t I trust Sun?
In terms of Operating Systems, Solaris 10 beats all the other operating systems to a bloody pulp.
Well, that is highly debatable. The mini-revival seen here has absolutely nothing to do with Solaris 10 and everything to do with producing good quality hardware, mostly thanks to AMD, at a decent price – and they also look very nice! It’s the getting the basics right really. Many of Sun’s servers still only come with Solaris 9.
Absolutes are almost absolutely wrong.
“…Solaris 10 beats all the other operating systems to a bloody pulp”
Agreed, highly debatable.
“The mini-revival seen here has absolutely nothing to do with Solaris 10…”
Also highly debatable. Considering from the article:
“Sun regained its position as the big-iron leader, as it grew sales, while HP, IBM and Fujitsu dropped sales. Sun now accounts for more than 50 per cent of Unix/Itanium shipments and 32 per cent of big-iron revenue. HP and IBM follow with 30 per cent revenue share each.”
Also….
“Many of Sun’s servers still only come with Solaris 9.”
AFAIK all *current* Sun server models run Solaris 10.
Just to further support your comment, I’d like to mention the *only* reason I even *thought* of Sun, was Solaris 10 (actually, some of the features IN Solaris 10.)
A grey-box cluster might make more sense if you just need *availability* alone. Although, the T*000 is filling in for that position now too. It’s a cluster in a box, perfect for webserving.
The promise of ZFS (soon to be realized in a few weeks with U2), Dtrace, Zones, etc were my *only* reasons for giving Solaris 10 a shot. After having used it on grey-box hardware for a while, I’m nearly ready to step up to Sun hardware. Again, this is *only* due to Solaris 10’s functionality/stability. After playing with it on toy-hw, I’ve realized it’s strengths (and also weaknesses) and for my purposes, the strengths, by far, win.
So, I won’t make any comments about beating other OSs into a pulp, however I will say for *my* purposes, it came out #1. And certainly, as you stated, Solaris 10 *did* have a part to play in the server sales going up.
+1 for you!
The promise of ZFS (soon to be realized in a few weeks with U2), Dtrace, Zones, etc were my *only* reasons for giving Solaris 10 a shot. After having used it on grey-box hardware for a while, I’m nearly ready to step up to Sun hardware. Again, this is *only* due to Solaris 10’s functionality/stability. After playing with it on toy-hw, I’ve realized it’s strengths (and also weaknesses) and for my purposes, the strengths, by far, win.
Just a minor correction, U2 won’t include root ZFS support, that’ll be coming in the 12/06 – 01/07 release.
That isn’t a correction. This is twice now you’ve posted under the guise of correcting me, when you’re not.
I never said ZFS would be supported as a root FS choice. Nor do I even care, I don’t need that for my purposes, which is what I was discussing. Mirroring is more than sufficient for my root FS at this point.
Please, stop “correcting” what isn’t incorrect to begin with. Post your comments/new information just as that, comments and new information.
It seemed that Sun was falling behind in the new millenium. But in the last couple of years they have shown a lot of initiative. Some how it seems with the opening up of Solaris things began to change for them. Offering Opteron servers was also a great idea.
They have always had reliable hardware. Install, power on and forget until you need to update the software. I have also had really good experiences working with Sun Support. They now offer the same reliability at much lower prices, ofcourse people are going to bite.
The sun also rises but they are not magically exempt from firmware glitch nor poison patch. Some jobs just cry out for a 72 way ultrasparc IV+ with half a terrabyte of ram.
I was thinking a infinite-way ultrasparc XXXXII+ with more terabytes of RAM than McDonalds has liters of grease.
I’m sure Dell will be shipping those any time now.
I can only agree with the comments on Dell. Their build quality is absolutely woeful and their components and cases are noticeably cheap and poor. Let’s just not mention the customer service, because there isn’t any. Heck, even then, I’ve went out and got my own components (usually AMD stuff – coincidence?), built my own servers and it’s been far better quality than anything I’ve seen from Dell and its cheaper. It’s not rocket science as to how Sun has managed a mini resurgence, and a large part of the thanks does go to AMD.
Of all the big server suppliers, I wouldn’t really use any of them because smaller suppliers make excellent quality AMD systems and provide excellent service, but if I had to pick one it would have to be Sun right now. It’s also a shot in the arm for AMD, because it’s putting IBM, HP and Dell under more pressure to use them and produce better all-round quality systems for a good price.
I can only hope for Sun’s sake that history does not repeat itself and they flounder before the light at the end of the tunnel.
Edited 2006-05-26 21:28
The astroturfers are out in full force today.
“The astroturfers are out in full force today.”
I don’t see much evidence of *astroturfing* yet, do you have any? But I think I smell a *troll*. It’s been a long week maybe I just need a shower?!
(-1 for the troll)
You’re back! My very favorite troll! I thought we had eradicated you, apparently not. *Takes a few moments to stop astroturfing and -1s*
Regarding small business purchases, here’s what I think is partly behind many a Dell server purchase:
1. A server goes down. A replacement is needed right now (or sooner).
2. The admin (or admins) are busy doing damage control. A non-tech “tech manager” type assumes the job of buying the new hardware.
3. The admins hear about these plans, and start researching hardware options, hoping they can have a say in the purchase before it’s too late.
4. Doh. Too late. The tech manager just got off the phone with a Dell rep and a new Dell (maybe a matching pair!) is on the way. After all, the tech manager has a Dell desktop, and that’s worked out pretty good, right? And the rep gave them great discounts which were only available until the end of the week. Also, the Dell was the cheapest around, and you can’t get nailed for saving the company money, right?
On another note, can anyone recommend a server supplier that focuses on machines that’ll be running GNU/Linux? Specifically, I’m talking about the kind of company who has good docs for things like getting RAID monitoring software working on the hardware they sell you.
Sun doesn’t take (many) shares from Windows and thus Dell. The unix vs. Windows vs. Mac debate are really paradigm shifts. If enterprise go with Windows it’s for specific reasons, and if they choose unix, it’s for other reasons. My hunch is that there aren’t that many people going out to buy Sun systems to load Windows on them. If anything, Sun is taking shares from AIX and HP-UX.
Incidentally, if you guys *are* correct, and it’s because of Sun’s AMD processor, then next quarter Dell is going to stomp everyone.
Edited 2006-05-27 06:51
> My hunch is that there aren’t that many people going out to buy Sun systems to load Windows on them.
Microsoft do. Their developers luv em. These boxes also run Linux, BSD… I dont know if SUN are pitching these systems at AIX and HP-UX as they have the Ultra IV+ machines which are better suited to this space. Actually you would have to have a substancial investment in AIX or HP-UX systems (or bad judgement) to justify using these systems at the moment. Marginal OS, small apps base, more expensive and less performance than current Sparc systems. Yes I could see why you would go for them. not.
Please, stop acting like a dick head, and taking *EVERYTHING* I post as if it were a criticism of your posts, Jesus F Christ, grow a back bone, some thick skin and get over it!
Yes, Newsys created their FIRST wave of hardware, and V20 and V40 are part of that *FIRST* wave of hardware; their *NEW* wave of hardware started with their new Ultra workstation range – oh, and btw, just because SUN outsource their hardware, just like every other assembler, doesn’t make it a ‘rebadged system’ – their first wave of machines were based off newsys designs, their second wave are based off the designs, lead by Andy – the ex SUN guru who returned.
As for Solaris and ZFS support – you clearly stated that Solaris 10 would have ZFS; implicitly implying that there would be comprehensive ZFS support, when, as I pointed out in my, must I say, respectful reply, that ZFS would not be available as an option for the root file system.
Please, stop acting as if I had just slapped your mother, and take some *VERY* minor corrections on the chin – like a man.
Browser: Lynx/2.8.5rel.4 libwww-FM/2.14
> Yes, Newsys created their FIRST wave of hardware, and V20 and V40
> are part of that *FIRST* wave of hardware; their *NEW* wave of
> hardware started with their new Ultra workstation range – oh,
> and btw, just because SUN outsource their hardware, just like
> every other assembler, doesn’t make it a ‘rebadged system’ – their
> first wave of machines were based off newsys designs, their second
> wave are based off the designs, lead by Andy – the ex SUN guru
> who returned.
The LX50, V60, V65, V20, V40 were all designed by the remaining Cobalt team in conjunction with newisys. The galaxy line was the first designed by Andy’s team.
I’ve got a backbone, I’ve got thick skin, thank you. I appreciate the personal insults as well. Grow some “maturity” would be my response to you.
Your second paragraph is correct, I never argued or said otherwise.
Your third paragraph is nonsense. Solaris 10 will have ZFS. There is no denying that. I can’t help you don’t have a firm grasp of English and think “Solaris 10 will have ZFS” somehow means Solaris 10 will be able to have it’s root FS set as ZFS. Your reply would have been fine if you simply clarified that root FS ZFS support will not be there in U2. My issue was you stated you were “correcting” me, when – in fact – I was not incorrect.
Two posts you made “correcting” things I said which were not incorrect. I had no problem with that, I simply asked if you wanted to post additional information you simply did so, you didn’t claim to be “correcting” me. I believe I was quite respectful in my asking you to do so, as well.
“Please, stop acting as if I had just slapped your mother, and take some *VERY* minor corrections on the chin – like a man.”
You’re really showing your maturity level with comments like this. I have nothing more to say to you.
I’d say that SUN is also pitching these machines to those who would have otherwise gone to a Dell/Red Hat combo, but since SUN is selling x86 hardware, and Solaris 10 is a first class citizen (on the server, workstation is a different issue altogether) – they can maintain compatibility whilst moving to a platform more suitable for their work load, it is a win for SUN in that they don’t lose a customer.
It will be interesting, however, where their new Niagara II systems fit into the equation in that they’ll have improved fpu’s, and running at, IIRC, 1.4Ghz and be plonked into an SMP machine.
And your lack of maturity is swamping someone by moderating their comments down.
If you are going to announce something, along the lines of “Solaris 10 will have ZFS”, how about making the statement a little more comprehensive than just an open ended statement.
Its the equivilant of saying, “this piece of hardware is supported” and yet mising out completely the fact that there are 12 things that aren’t supported on the hardware.
I quite frankly do not understand why you turned this ‘conversation’ into a war of words, I pointed out some *very* minor additions to your post, and like I said in the post YOU moderated down, that you took it as if I had just punched your mother.
Edited 2006-05-27 23:59
And yet Ormandj marks my post down AGAIN. Ormandj, grow up, and get some maturity.
Edited 2006-05-28 00:41