“Sun Microsystems plans to alter its licensing to make it easier to bundle Java Runtime Environment with Linux. The company will announce the changes and at least one other open-source move at the JavaOne conference later this month, Sun executives said during a press teleconference on Thursday.”
If they had done this a while back Java would have been far more pervasive than it will now ever be.
This decision should apply across the BSDs as well as Linux – if not why not.
These operating systems support multiple CPU families and have an obvious partnership with platforms such as Java (and Perl and PHP and Python … and Mono).
Seems a bit of a little decision, a lot late.
It should be easier for BSD to. After reading the linked page it seems the change to the license was more about making things easier for OpenSolaris and that changing the license also makes things easier for Linux and therefore probably BSD to.
If they had done this a while back Java would have been far more pervasive than it will now ever be.
That is a guess at best. There is no guarantee that this move will make any difference whatsoever. I believe Java’s success or failure will be dependent on the language, not anything else.
Really, they’re dicking around the edge with ‘oh, an internal debate’ – sorry, who is running the company? a junta of middle managers or Johnathon?
Please, there is nothing to be lost by opensourcing it, release it under the beloved CDDL; allow any top, dick and harry to compile and bundle it with their distribution – and hey, as long as they’re not changing the code as to make it compatibile, let the damn plebs call it Java!
Will SUN lose anything? of course not! the value in terms of revenue gained is off the products being sold ontop of the framework, NOT the framework itself – they make money off the application server, consultancy, tools etc.
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Personally I don’t mind it not being open source. There is a faustian deal that keeps Java as a “write once run anywhere” model rather than having it splintered by the likes of J++ or other misguided implementations.
Sun have kept hold of the reins and kept Java moving forward and they don’t expect me to pay £700 for their IDE to develop with Java. If they retain enough legal sanction to stop anyone (even MS) from “cul-de-sac”ing
Java then let them get on with it and spare them (and us) from the dogma!
The open source issue is now slightly academic as there are now open source implementation(s) which make the grade for almost all practical purposes (for example GCJ can now run Eclipse).
Personally I am happy to develop on the reference implementation and then have a choice when deploying.
What your missing is that only because .Net/Mono are taking off in popularity is Java development as open/fastas it is now. So for the last 10 years Sun’s spent all it’s effort on making J2EE as complex as possible, while basic language features, and performance in the JRE for the rest of us have stagnated.
Once .Net has had time to mature it will continue to push Java up the stack and out of the low end.
The people complaining here are the ones who like Java and don’t want to see it lose out to .Net/Mono which it IS losing ground to. Java in the enterprise, yes, and it will be there for a long time, but Java on the desktop? Much less likely now then it could have been 10 years ago if Java lang development hadn’t stagnated.
What your missing is that only because .Net/Mono are taking off in popularity
It is? You’re living in a slightly different world to the rest of us. Java is under more pressure from something like Ruby these days, especially when it comes to web development.
Once .Net has had time to mature
By mature that means that .Net will get more complex.
don’t want to see it lose out to .Net/Mono which it IS losing ground to.
Sorry, but Java is not losing ground to .Net and it most certainly is not losing ground to Mono. Where’s the evidence that Java or anything else is losing out in terms of popularity to Mono?
Aren’t more and more GNOME apps getting written with Mono? Like Beagle?
Funny how something like Java “matures” but .NET gets “more complex”.
.NET is Microsofts answer to security woes (among other things), and people still find ways to hate it.
Aren’t more and more GNOME apps getting written with Mono? Like Beagle?
Well Mono apps aren’t officially Gnome apps, but I that’s not what I’m talking about. Go into companies, look at application servers and even some desktop stuff and see how much Mono you find. Zilch. I don’t know why people keep bringing this up as a sign of Mono’s popularity and usage. ‘Gnome’ apps mean nothing.
Funny how something like Java “matures” but .NET gets “more complex”.
Java did get more mature, and it got way, way more complex – hence mutiny in the ranks and people trying out things like Ruby. .Net will go the same way as Microsoft tries to get it to supplant Java in the server world.
.NET is Microsofts answer to security woes (among other things), and people still find ways to hate it.
They’re going to need an awful lot more than .Net to solve some of their security woes. They’re not even writing any of their own stuff in it.
Strangely though, .Net isn’t a solution to anything really. Nothing is being rewritten in managed code because all the .Net framework is basically one large wrapper around Win32.
Edited 2006-05-05 17:39
I thought it was about Mono growing in popularity and usage, which it apparently is.
I actually meant to say Microsoft’s answer to security woes for developers. My fault for forgetting that.
And WinFX is actually .NET, and that will be a big part of Vista.
Ahhh, I see the Mono fans have been out in force… 🙂
@segedunum
It is? You’re living in a slightly different world to the rest of us. Java is under more pressure from something like Ruby these days, especially when it comes to web development.
Like Ogg vorbis, only a handful know that Ruby exists. Objective-C, another obscure language, is way more popular than both Ogg Vorbis and Ruby combined.
There are more and more job listing for .Net programmers. I have never seen one for anything Ruby related programmers. On the market, Ruby is pretty much irrelevant. Saying that Ruby is a threat to Java is completely irrealistic.
On the market, Ruby is pretty much irrelevant. Saying that Ruby is a threat to Java is completely irrealistic.
Look at the growth of Java. Look at the recent growth (or lack of) of .Net and its stagnation (VB is still more popular than .Net, as is PHP). Look at the growth of Ruby in a very, very, very, very short period of time:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index
Saying that Ruby is a threat to Java is completely irrealistic.
Well, unless Java pays attention to what’s going on in the world, becomes less complex and less unwieldy then I’m afraid it is realistic. You’ve exhibited a typical response where someone covers their ears and doesn’t want to listen.
Edited 2006-05-06 14:57
“Personally I don’t mind it not being open source. There is a faustian deal that keeps Java as a “write once run anywhere” model rather than having it splintered by the likes of J++ or other misguided implementations.”
I think that’s exactly the point why other people DO want it open sourced. Selling your soul is fine, but I don’t want to sell mine, nor would I expect that others should have to sell theirs. That was a really interesting reference.
Really, they’re dicking around the edge with ‘oh, an internal debate’ – sorry, who is running the company? a junta of middle managers or Johnathon?
I don’t understand the debate either. Java is making very, very little money for Sun and if they could find a way to open source it for the benefit of everyone they’d probably create themselves some more market opportunities.
It’s true that the users that matter (big corporates) would never venture away from Sun’s build but Sun would get a huge influx of contributions. Java and JVM are really close to windows in terms of how widely deployed it is.
It might actually be the problem. How do you manage such an influx without rejecting a very large number of patches ? That in turn would trigger forks, and given the size of the parties likely to be interested, forks, that don’t occur that often in opensource project, would appear quickly.
So no opensourcing. But easier distribution ? That’d be a winner.
Edited 2006-05-05 22:08
It might actually be the problem. How do you manage such an influx without rejecting a very large number of patches ? That in turn would trigger forks, and given the size of the parties likely to be interested, forks, that don’t occur that often in opensource project, would appear quickly.
What that will push forward is this; if something is rejected, it actually has to be rejected for a valid reason rather than some psuedo political clap trap.
If there is a fork, the original project should ask *why* it has occured, not blame those who fork; if a patch is rejected because it breaks compatibility for other platforms, then yes, under the ‘charter’ of ‘write once, run anywhere’, the patch should be gotten rid of, but at the same time, if there is a bug, someone has a fix, and no one else, after calling for superior fixes, has come forward to offer their 50 cents worth, I don’t see why the the patch should be rejected.
The fact that Java is a trademark, and any fork couldn’t call itself Java is one way to stop confusion, and secondly, you’re assuming that large numbers of patches would simply be rejected. If SUN is pragmatic, and for example, 80-90% of people support the inclusion of SWT into the main tree, then they should do so.
Ultimately, if there is a fork, SUN will be the cause of it, and nothing to do with the idea of opensource persay.
I don’t think Java devs have had too hard of a time taking five mintues to install JRE/JDK on their Linux PCs…I know I never have.
However, it’d be really nice to be able to emerge sun-jdk in Gentoo w/o having to manually download and place it in the distfiles directory. It would mean an extra savings of maybe a few minutes…nothing more. For the average user, if the Sun implementation were distributed more easily, we would see *slightly* more Java use on the desktop, I think, and even greater use on the server – given the current Java trends.
I’m not sure I’m in favor of them entirely open-sourcing it because as it is, you *can* access the source code and you can also partake in the JCP and have your opinions heard. On the other hand, I doubt we’d see “forking” if it were opened, especially under Sun’s continued guidance…I think we’d potentially see more rapid adoption on the server *and* the desktop and more third-party participation.
Heh, do a search on linuxquestions.org sometime about people being unable to install Java. For someone who has done it once or twice or is a Java developer, it is indeed very easy. But most people can’t (and shouldn’t have to) wrap their head around environment variables and paths just to get a Java app running.
I know I actually felt a little embarassed when a friend of mine wanted to run a Java app I had written. I had to help walk them through the process, even though they were relatively computer literate. It felt sort of backwards and crude considering it is 2006.
maybe they can come up with a license that concentrates on deployment issues only. and they can still stick to their current strategy of reviewing other implementations before granting the Java name
It would have been nice if the article had stated what the change in license is. The JRE comes with my distro, Mandriva Linux. How does Mandriva do it? And how does this change help other distros do the same? I hate articles like this that really say nothing.
How does Mandriva do it?
In clear violation of Sun’s license.
It’s not as if Sun’s going to go after Mandriva any more than Intel is going to go after all the distros that bundle its firmware, but it would be nice if the licenses matched the reality of the situation at the very least.
So here are the “violators” I know of:
Mandriva
Mepis
Linspire
Xandros
And probably a few more. Are you sure they are all violators, or do they have some arrangement with Sun?
I wouldn’t doubt Xandros has a deal with Sun since they sell/bundle Sun’s (commercial) StarOffice rather than (the free and open-source) OpenOffice that it’s based on (or vice versa).
Have a look at the Comments to Jonathan Schwatzs blog:
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan?entry=sunlight_is_the_bes…
There are some people who mentioned the reasons, why opensourcing Java could only helpful for Java.
So, the CEO can not say, that he haven’t know all the pros and contras for making Java OpenSource.
Greatings
theuserbl
But it’s a good thing to look after…
I don’t care whether Sun open sources Java. Ultimately, that is a business decision on their part.
What I care about is Java distribution. The easier it is to distribute Java, either with Windows, MacOSX, Linux, BSD, Solaris, or whatever, the better, and the more it will be distributed. If the licensing is changed to make it easier for Linux distros, and BSD, to include their default installs, Java will become more ubiquitous.
So if Sun does this, it will be a very very smart move.
Yup.
In the job market, it’s pretty much Java and .Net, with some C/C++ thrown in, and even occasionally some Perl.
Stuff like Ruby, PHP, Python, Mono, etc, are mostly irrelevent.
At least, that’s what you get when you do searches at Dice, Monster, or other job listing sites.
Sure, there might be a small, niche, “hidden” job market for stuff like Ruby, PHP, Python, Mono, etc. But by and large, that stuff is pretty much non existent in job listings.
Stuff like Ruby, PHP, Python, Mono, etc, are mostly irrelevent.
Actually, knowing a scripting language is a requirement for many software jobs these days.
Sure, there might be a small, niche, “hidden” job market for stuff like Ruby, PHP, Python, Mono, etc. But by and large, that stuff is pretty much non existent in job listings.
Here’s a few ‘hidden’ jobs at some obscure company named ‘Google’ that require/recommend python: http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/search.py?hl=en&lr=lang_en&t…
Notice that the search tool here is written in python (search.py)
My guess this pressure comes from IBM and RedHat, which ar both very serious contributors to Java Enterprise market now. It is very possible that Debian Enterprise users also want easer integration with distributions. Pratically it is just tiny change which is required from Sun – to include point that allows distribute JRE without big hassles with ANY Linux/BSD distribution. My pick is that there is no big problem with JRE on Linux – yes, it is memory eater, leaker, etc., but still, it works and don’t hang my box.
Would be very happy to see such changes in licences for ati and nvidia binary only drivers.
And those who say that Java is dead and .NET is rising, well, check reality settings. Java is so huge and serious in enterprise and application server level (and very useful too, because you should forget about using PHP on serious enterprise level apps), that .NET never will outdone them. And believe, those people don’t give a heck about how easy is to install .NET framework/Mono stack or JRE. WebObjects, Hibernate, Eclipse framework – you name it. They all rise now, their top is now. Java jobs are still best paid jobs in coder’s industry.
And let’s not forget Python and Ruby, which ease of use eat .NET lunch very seriously.
The problem with J++ had nothing to do with opensource, and everything to do with trademark violations.
Microsoft not only added features to J++, but RIPPED OUT *KEY* parts, which as a result made THEIR version incompatible with the version being shipped by SUN, the net result, you ended up with internet sites, like we have today with browsers, offering you a Java applet for the SUN Java and one for the Windows Java!?
Microsoft continued to called it ‘100% Pure Java’, when it wasn’t even close to it! they pulled features out, replaced it with their own ideas, and continued calling it java, even though it didn’t even remotely look or act like Java! thats the problem.
As for opensourcing it, an issue raised by another person, in respects to JCP – I doubt there are a large number who are interested in the mundane process of having to write up reports, get backings, arguing for the feature, get some more backing etc. etc. I’d say that most people who are interested in looking at the source code, wish to so that things can be corrected in a timely manner rather than the current situation of being held at the mercy of SUN’s “release schedule” and the constant dropping of features to meet this “schedule”.
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