“Wal-Mart, the most mass-market retailer imaginable, is committing an outrageous form of computing heresy: On its Web site, it’s selling Windows-compatible personal computers without Windows. Stranger yet, the PCs (built by Microtel Computer Systems, a Los Angeles area manufacturer) come installed with a version of Linux, the open-source operating system that has been giving Microsoft fits lately.” WashingtonPost reviews Wal-Mart PCs with Lindows.
Cheap PCs With Lindows Are Well Intentioned but Flawed
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
So now it’s a “computing heresy” to sell a non-Microsoft product?
-All PC manufacturers have “lemons”, that’s what keeps the “Refurb” business alive.
-Blank passwords are very common on all versions of Winblows! Especially for home users.
The article makes a big deal out of things that are not that big a deal. If the PCs were bad the wouldn’t sell at all so…
I say Kudos to WallMart for selling Lindows PCs. I only wish Palm will wise up soon and announce a BeOS desktop!
ciao
yc
I often read many criticisms of Lindows that point out that it’s insecure because the user is running as root. I agree this is not the most secure way to go about securing things, but I do agree with the decision to have LindowsOS use root as the default user. When I am running Linux I find myself so running su root so often that I aliased ‘en’ to do it. Running as a restricted user on a system drives me crazy and takes a great deal away from the general functionality of the system and efficiency in which I get anything done. I think it’s annoying to constantly have to type in an administrative or root password, and I believe that in the event that an end user is unable to run code (malicious or not) as a restricted user, they will just su to root and run it anyway. Kind of like the idea of installing zone alarm and then giving access to everything that needs it. Not to mention that many of the Walmart boxes are bought as a second computers and probably sit behind NAT routers anyway.
They were showing microtel with Mandrake 8.2 on their pc’s but it seems they replaced that with lindows yet the mandrake ones are still there but harder to find.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?
cat=96955&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3951%3A41937%3A867 96%3A96951%3A96955
Electronics > desktop PC’s
The Mandrake PC’s are listed at the top of the page
All you need to know is that the guy behind Lindows is the same guy who brought you the dubiously legal MP3.com.
Sure, there are neat things about mp3.com, but in the end it was a shoddily worked enterprise, and it still is.
The Click & Run “feature” of Lindows is bordering on idiotic. Why spend $99 (and thus make your purchase price larger than if you had just bought one with Mandrake on it) to be able to download obsolete software, particularly when Mandrake is there as an attractive option, and it comes with a full and userbase supported software suite?
I’m not even one to care about the everything as Root aspect, but it seems to be unnecessary. How truly difficult is it to have to make up a username and password for yourself when you first turn on your computer? If someone is willing to buy a PC with Linux on it in the first place, he/she is likely at least partially open to trying new thins etc.
All in all, Lindows seems almost like a bait & switch scam (“sure it costs $100 less than the Mandrake system–but not if you want software!”), and doesn’t seem to offer any innovations back to the Linux community. Hopefully these will drop away and the Mandrake PCs will stick around (and maybe Desktop/LX can get in on the game).
I agree completely. When I started using Linux, I prefered to run as root all the time. People where telling me that it’s insecure, but I’m strongly against every kind of paranoia so I waited for someone providing actual facts before I would switch. Which never happened. =)
The reason I switched to a useraccount then was, that the system used “root” at all kind of places where it should input my name. Annoying! Best example is “root’s home” on the desktop. Also there was some IRC channel banning all root users and xscreensaver doesn’t even run as root usually.
I thought it was quite convenient to run as a user (because of the username and such) and did this for quite some years. But still, the most often typed phrase of mine was “su” and my password, it also rendered my filemanager useless for everything but managing my MP3 collection.
Now after a few months of Windows usage, I’m back to Linux, I thought about it and I’m running as root again. Here I am, exploit me.
Today I consider myself to be quite experienced with Unix systems. I could do 95% of my work on a console with vim, mutt and grep. Meanwhile I can type my password faster than my name and of course I can do all filemanaging in a terminal. But guess what? I don’t want to.
As long as I can’t do everything as convenient as with root (or someone shows me how he can exploit my system to damage another system, so that it becomes my duty to make sure this doesn’t happen), I won’t switch to a useraccount anymore.
root is the *superuser* account. Basically, it can do *whatever* it wants to the system. Thus, it is always safer to run as a normal user.
Say someone send a mail that contain some bad (virus?) program. If we are running as root, (and not being careful), we execute the program. That it! All the files maybe affected by this…
That is why (AFAIK) Windoze viruses are such a pain, since every programs in Windoze are in *root* level.
has anyone looked into exploits for this particular OS that were writeen because it will be easier to gain access to whatever?
re: viruses on windows: most viruses that run on windows will not run on *nix.
I have a MicrotelPC with Lindows I got from Walmart. I also have Lycoris on another machine. What these two companies are trying to do is set Linux up for Joe User and Mom and Pop. Both are frustrating in their implementation.
I bought the Microtel knowing Lindows may not stay on it too long, but I’ve been keeping to my commitment to see how this works from Joe User’s point of view. I did add RAM, so was able to check out the insides – everything was solid. It’s a real white box operation, but is fun – loud fan, huge case, but I did get the 1.4 GHz Athalon XP, so it’s mighty fast. Anyway, Lindows has a great opportunity here, getting in on this Walmart deal, but the problems are not really running in root, etc. For a company that has this opportunity, Lindows is really blowing it. It comes with no real documentation at all. Microtel provides a technical motherboard manual – just what Mom and Pop need! <g> So, the whole idea of making Linux for Joe User is undermined by Lindows itself. You would think they might have a slim manual introducing Linux to the new user, etc.
Actually, for Joe User and Mom and Pop, the Click ‘n Run Warehouse is a good thing (assuming it’s kept up to date and works right). I haven’t had any problems with it, but I’m on cable modem, home lan. But, for a novice, it’s great – you download whatever you want to and there’s no dependencies problems, etc. So, for the Walmart shopper this could be a really good thing, but Lindows is just not ready for prime time.
If only Lindows and Lycoris could morph, a much better product would emerge. Lycoris is selling pre-installed HP desktops and IBM Thinkpads now, but they’re so low end and slow, it’s unbelievable. I don’t know if they are refurbs or some left over stock from three years ago. So, right now, Lycoris is not reaching the Walmart type shopper. You have to install it and, although it is as painless as you can possibly imagine, only people who are already PC users would buy it and feel confident enough to install it.
So, that is one drawback for Lycoris. Another is that there is currently no way for the average user to install new software. In the interview Eugenia had up not long ago, that is supposed to be corrected in the next update. But, right now, it is a real drawback. Lycoris is a very pleasant user experience though, has a decent introductory manual and a great community website – that is where the support is. They promise 60 days of email support, but that is totally bogus…practically fraud. I emailed and got a canned response that even told me the name of my support person. I wrote twice more to try and get a reply, but, to this day, have received nothing.
The most stupifying thing about Lycoris is in one of its best areas, the XP like Control Center. For some reason beyond reckoning, they have Mozilla as the default browser and email program in the Lycoris Menu. Konqueror is the file manager and has a little extra side bar for that purpose. But, in the Control Center, when you configure browser and email, you’re actually configuring Konq! How confusing is that for a new user?? Then, at some point, I decided to browse the install CD. To my surprise, there was a bunch of KDE programs that you can install…including Konq as a web browser and KMail! (and other programs too…ftp, etc.). I’ve got things set up now the way I think is logical – and the way, I assume, that would be easier for Joe User, with Konq and KMail in the forefront and the wonderful Mozilla there to learn more about as time goes on.
Well, I didn’t mean to write a book, but you can see the incredible gaffs and gaping holes in these two attempts to bring Linux to the desktop of the average and new user. Some of these holes are so big that it makes you wonder how decisions like that could possibly have been made by rational human beings <g>. So, it’s frustrating, but interesting. I’ve committed myself to use these as Joe User would for one year, updating when updates come out, etc. LOL, it may be a long, long year 😉
I’ve tried Windows, I’ve tried Lindows. They both suck. Anyhow the article stinks of being put together from rumours. “Logic board”? Obviously the guy is a Mac – head. Crash within minutes of due to an unattached heat sink? I REALLY doubt it. While Lindows (in my experience) clearly is a scam that makes a legit OS look bad, this reviewer does not seem to base his article on his own real experience.
“Logic board” is a valid and acceptable term for a motherboard. And yes, modern CPUs can and do crash very quickly if they aren’t properly cooled. It seems to me that your criticisms are stemming from your own ignorance, not from the reviewer’s.
Frys has had a 1.1ghz intel celeron 128mb sdram
20gb harddrive
52x cd-rom
10/100 fast eathernet adapter
56k modem
with Thiz linux as it OS for $300 on sale for the past three months
The computer brand is Great Quality. I dont now anything about the brand or Thiz linux. It’s been pretty prominent in the ads
“Crash within minutes of due to an unattached heat sink? I REALLY doubt it.”
Umm.. Have you ever seen the Toms hardware guide video about this? http://www12.tomshardware.com/images/THG_CPU_Cooling.zip
From THG: “Both Athlon-processors, the new one as well as the old one, died within fractions of a second” (after removing the heat sink)
Not crashing. BURNING. Literally. 370 degrees in under a second which melts the chip plus surrounding motherboard parts.
Ian, I checked Fry’s Outpost.com and I think the 1.1 Celeron box is $399. For the same price on walmart’s site you can buy a system with
1.3 GHz Duron, 40G HDD, 128 MB, NIC, 56k, Lindows.
Or for $30 more, you can get the same system preloaded with Mandrake and Star Office.
I imagine that Walmart feels that by offering Linux, Microsoft will be motivated to give them a lower price on the OS for the Windows machines they sell, so the price differential will not appear large and remind customers of the Microsoft “tax”. Smart for them, as now they can compete even more effectively in the much larger Windows PC market.
The IT professionals of the world should take note. If they want better terms for the Microsoft products they license, they should make very serious looking moves towards Linux which Microsoft could not take lightly. Perhaps forming a consortium with the goal of advancing Linux in the areas it falls short of their needs, and/or doing trials internally with current distros. It would be an inexpensive and educational bargaining chip.
Only someone as large and diversified as Walmart can take a chance like this; MSFT could react to a PC only maker by raising the price for the OS.
Walmart is payed by Microsoft. They sell computers with Linux preinstalled so that people get upset on how bad Linux is. It’s part of that ‘Make Linux bad’ campaign 😉
In earnest, I wouldn’t recommend Linux for a computer newbie.
Eric Raymond once stated that as PC’s began to drop below the $400 (or so) range that people would become less and less willing to pay the Microsoft tax. In all honesty with the cost of Windows XP Pro being around $260 it’s hard ship it on a $300 computer. Lindows and Mandrake may not be making that much money on the deal, but I am sure giving them money to fight the beast would be a bad thing for Mr. Gates.
Jay, thank you for writing your little insight about Lindows and Lycoris. I am using Lycoris as well and had my learning curve there with loads of reinstalls.
I’d say, although your comment is not a featured article itself, it tells 100x more than any Lycoris review up to date and I have read them all…
So I suppose know we finally figured why MS ported Office to the Mac… 🙂
“I say Kudos to WallMart for selling Lindows PCs. I only wish Palm will wise up soon and announce a BeOS desktop! ”
Palm should deal with Wallmart in order to have each one of those indows box bundled for $50 with a Palm compatible PDA.
In my country, this would translate to “try this product for a year…if not satisfied, return it or get it fixed”.
Sounds like a great way to get introduced to Linux to me.
My guess is that most newcomers to Linux via the Lindows way will quickly realize the potential behind other more advanced distro’s, then format their drive and get pro with it.
fred
Am I wrong if I say that M$ owns Washington Post?
I have a distinct memory of this being the case, and it would
sure explain alot of the article.
Regards
/Procton
It would be very interesting to know how walmart.com’s Linux machines (Lindows/Mandrake) sell in comparison to their BLANK machines.
I can’t help thinking that more people would want to buy on price and load in an old copy of windows.
Am I wrong if I say that [MS] owns Washington Post?
Um, no. The Washington Post Company owns the Wasington Post. http://www.washpostco.com/co_biz.htm They also own Washington Post-Newsweek Interactive, which shows up on MSNBC, so perhaps your ignorance is somewhat understandable, if not excusable.
Thanks Anonymous! I had thought about writing something up and submitting it, but I thought the next update of Lycoris is to be out sometime this month. Because I’m continuing with this little project, I figure I’ll have fresh opportunities. But, these reviews of these products – they are too short and often make misleading statements because the authors don’t have time to really explore everything. To me, SuSE and Mandrake are the easiest “full”, “regular” distros. But, for Joe User, that would be too much right now (although Mandrake pre-installed on Walmart Microtel PC’s would be interesting!). Lindows and Lycoris both have some really good areas for the novice, but, as I was saying, undermine that by their weaknesses. So, we’ll see <g>.
The review is not that bad, obviously not so great either. I expected much worse.
Ok so use mandrake next time if you don’t like lindows. I still love what walmart is doing. No other major name vendor/store has taken this risk.
Beos would be the better choice for this type of venture, for ease of use. I know we will never see that though.
Hey does anyone know what MS is charging major OEMs these days for XP? I thought it was around $60. Any info?
Oh ryan, the idea of BeOS on these boxes at Walmart makes me want to weep. You think of all the ways Be tried to get the BeOS out there, they go under and suddenly Walmart, of all places, is selling computers with Lindows and Mandrake. Be would have been perfect for this type of venture – so easy to use, so nice to look at…and most important of all, what a great OS!
“So I suppose know we finally figured why MS ported Office to the Mac… :-)”
I don’t believe Microsoft Office was PORTED to the Mac. Word and Excel have been around since around 1985. I have a copy of Micorosoft Excel vers. 1.0 for Mac that came on one or two floppys. This predates Micorsoft Windows 3.0 and possibly even Windows 1.0.
I know that wasn’t your point but I couldn’t resist.
We all assume that Lindows will suck because the common luser will not understand Linux. Don’t underestimate them, they adapt quite easily.
I haven’t looked at Lindows, but they would go far with some sort of campaign or manual that goes along the lines of ‘this is what you’re used to doing in windows, now here’s how you do it in lindows’.
If you can bring a new user a desktop and get him to start using it – even for a few days – he starts relying on it (especially since that $300 just got forked out for the hardware). There is incentive for him to learn about the OS when he breaks something.
Users are also cheap. Get Lindows in front of them for free, and they are more likely to ‘try’ to figure out a problem than fork out $99 for XP to ‘solve their problems’. Most will have no clue how to install XP or partition that harddrive, let alone move any data they have stored in Lindows.
The kicker here is the ‘experienced friend/colleague/spouse(?!)’ who could help them install XP. However, the probability is high that this guy will have more interest in Lindows than XP if he has not seen it. So this may swing either way.
It may sound stupid, but some of the ‘limitations’ or ‘non-features’ on certain *nix desktops, such as not being able to place icons on the desktop, are great features for these newbies. They don’t have the option to delete icons, drag them in the trash, or create clutter.
Placing them in a walled garden is a great idea. The online software update is a good idea here. Who cares if the apps are not up to date. Not like your Lindows user is going to know the difference between Mozilla 0.9.9 and 1.0.0. To him it is just ‘I need to download a web browser’.
And before Excel, there was MS Multiplan which can be though of as Excel version 0.99. I still have a copy from 1984 somewhere. Oh yeah… and MS Chart circa 1984 of course.
Couldn’t resist 😉
Word and Excel both started as Macintosh programs, and were later ported to Windows. Ironically enough, in the 80s Bill Gates was a big fan of Macintosh. Gates threw a lot of Microsoft’s energy into developing Macintosh applications, and tried to get Apple to license a Mac OS for IBM-compatible PCs. Apple said no way, so Gates took the Mac-on-PC concept and turned it into Windows. And that’s your history lesson for today.
With the features available with permissions, security and the ability to suid particular programs. There is never a reason to do anything on a Linux machine as anything other then an unpriviliged user account.
Show me a few examples of when you “must” run as root and I will show you how you can easily perform those tasks as an unprivilaged user. All that it takes is setting a few permissions, setting a few executables to suid and voila, you have a perfectly usable workstation that is more secure then running around having unprotected internet.
In all honesty with the cost of Windows XP Pro being around $260 it’s hard ship it on a $300 computer.
I don’t know of any OEM that ships retail Windows XP, when they could use highly discounted OEM versions….
I have a distinct memory of this being the case, and it would sure explain alot of the article.
Which doesn’t exactly explain why MSNBC praised Lycoris so much… But anyway, WP isn’t owned by Microsoft.
Hey does anyone know what MS is charging major OEMs these days for XP? I thought it was around $60. Any info?
It depends on how much you sell. Dell should get their copies for less than $40, for sure. You could also have deals with MS, like what Sony did, to get a better price, but soon such priviledges would dissapear because of AOL, Sun and Be.
Be tried to get the BeOS out there, they go under and suddenly Walmart, of all places, is selling computers with Lindows and Mandrake. Be would have been perfect for this type of venture – so easy to use, so nice to look at…and most important of all, what a great OS!
You could pretty much blame Be for this too. They wanted BeOS to be bundled with as much new machines along with Windows for them to get an increase market share and therefore would get more support. This is very different from what is happening here.
Thank god I reinstalled GENTOO! You have to pay 99 dollars a month for the packeging system. Why not just purchase a copy of windows? The system is very slow. It takes about 20 seconds to launch most programs! But again, it has apt-get because its based on Debian. So it isn’t too hard to change the runlevel and lose the always superuser thingie majigie and add normal accounts. I did it just for fun, and apt-getted some extra software. But yah, Lindows does blow chunks. It is very slooooooowwwww and the packaging update sucks, more like sucks ur wallet (99 bucks a year)! Their implementation of wine doesn’t even run IE as the said and everything else it runs the same as if I were to install wine myself. LINDOWS SUCKS ASS, btw it uses UMSDOS!!! boooo