If you’ve already installed Windows 11 on unsupported devices, you might soon notice a new watermark on the desktop. The watermark, which appears above the taskbar clock, is similar to the “Windows is not activated” error, but it won’t affect apps, windows or web browsers.
The desktop watermark simply states “system requirements not met” and it may irritate some users, but it should not come as too much of a surprise, as Microsoft previously warned users of possible ‘damage’.
You have to feel sad for Windows users. Windows 7 really seems to have been the high point of Windows – ever since then it’s been one mess after another.
For the love of God, why?
It’s almost as if Microsoft has such a fetish for banana peels that they go to great lengths to step on it when they take notice of one on the other side of the road.
Plain unneeded bad press.
Don’t worry, they’ll probably replace the pointless FUD message with targeted, for a better user experience, advertising soon enough.
So much bad perception is generated by people who blame Windows because their hardware/drivers don’t work properly. Apple block the installation on unsupported hardware to avoid this. I personally prefer a watermark, which makes clear to the end user that machine is not supported
You can’t ignore that Microsoft puts in place manufactured “issues” and arbitrary “requirements” as a means to push people towards more lock-in and handing over more control of property you own to their interests.
Can’t I, though? 7, 8, 8.1, and 10 all had the same system requirements – that’s 4 releases, and if Vista had the requirements set to what they should’ve been, it would’ve been 5 releases spanning 14 years with the same requirements. 11 is the first release in 12 years that upped system requirements…
Completely agree. If you want a positive and supported expirience, you need to meet the requirements. If you don’t meet the requirements, expect compromises
All of those also worked just fine on systems that didn’t mean the requirements either. So yeah, there’s that.
Adurbe,
Yes, I agree that covers most of the hardware issues with linux…oh wait wrong OS, haha.
New requirements can make sense at times, but blacklisting otherwise modern motherboards or CPUs that have the latest SSE standards seems rather arbitrary and unnecessary. Microsoft’s new requirements may not be warranted by actual technical requirements, but perhaps a selfish motivation instead. For example: Microsoft could end up using TPM to enforce restrictions and anti-features that users never wanted nor asked for.
In short, a new requirement for something we want could be good, but a new requirement for something that may end up harming us could be very bad. I don’t want to make too many assumptions about microsoft’s motives here, but it’s certainly makes one wonder where microsoft is ultimately going with these new requirements.
Sure they can. Haven’t you discovered that people these days are very good at ignoring inconvenient facts when it’s a company they like?
Ever think of the possibility that the bad hardware/drivers are simply because Windows is terrible to write drivers for? It’s been my experience that some hardware works perfectly fine in Linux but is kind of crap under Windows, quite probably because open source coders figure out how to work around hardware bugs. But Why couldn’t the actual developers of the hardware figure that out for the official Windows drivers as well, as that is where they think the money is at? The old ‘blame it on the drivers’ for instability is kind of horse shit.
Also, even though I have an m1 macbook with all the shiny things, it still will randomly kill all of my running applications.
I’d suggest that if Windows is hard to write drivers for, the result is still a buggy driver. Which gets blamed on Windows (looking at you GPU drivers…)
Microsoft are quite clear what they do and don’t support. Informing the end user of this (who presumably already knowingly circumvented or ignored previous warnings) that any poor performance isn’t a result of Windows per se, but more likely the unsupported hardware it’s been “hacked” to run on.
Check out the article/comments regarding the WinNT personality grafted onto an seL4 microkernel – there is plenty of discussion about the difficulty in wrapping WinNT drivers in their own userspace processes simply because so many drivers don’t follow the rules. To quote:
Is Microsoft to blame for this? Is Microsoft to blame for developers disregarding sane design guidelines and instead continue writing drivers using techniques known to break?
Drumhellar,
Arguably they are at least partly to blame for the use of monolithic drivers written in C. These are two bad practices that still remain the dominant way of building operating systems. albeit not unique to microsoft. I agree with you there may be more bad practices within monolithic kernels, but it’s hard to beat a microkernel in terms of achieving proper isolation.
The vast majority of desktop and laptop computers still in use in 2022 could conceivably run Windows 11 just fine. If it can run Windows 10, it can run 11, from a performance standpoint. Any new hardware requirements (especially CPU generation) are completely artificial and serve only to give Microsoft an out when it comes to support.
I get the need to drop support for really old hardware that simply can’t perform at a usable pace, I don’t expect to run Windows 11 on a single core machine with 1GB of memory and a spinning hard drive. I also don’t expect to run Windows 10 on that machine, nor even Windows 7 even though it would technically install. My point is, a Haswell era PC is overkill for just about any task the average user would throw at it, and the average user is Microsoft’s meat and potatoes. No you’re not going to be doing 4Kp60 AAA gaming, or ML/AI compute, or advanced engineering tasks on an older machine like that, but neither are 95% of the computer users out there.
I get that there are Windows 11-specific features one won’t be able to access without newer hardware, but the same was true of Windows 10, 8, 7, XP… It’s always been a treadmill. It’s just that now that Microsoft has eased us into a OS-as-a-Service model, they are confident with pulling the rug out from under the common user and using tactics like the subject of this article to push them into needless hardware upgrades at a time when silicon is scarce.
Thank you.
Ebay and other used markets. There will be tons of PCs sold there with Windows 11 hacked onto them without this being done. Thus a need for a visual indicator that will be seen during the return window.
“Windows development was complete with XP”.
No, Windows 7 was a behemoth in comparison while not being much better.
Windows Vista is when Microsoft implemented WinSxS which is a neat feature however Windows updates have been forever broken ever since.
7 was a bloated behemoth, i agree, but it was at least consistent, stable, and very usable.
XP fantastic for it’s time, but like many contemporary systems, it was sorely lacking in the security department.
XP “was a bloated behemoth” when it was released and needed 2 service packs to be reliable. It was a similar story for Vista, but somehow it’s XP that is revered. I believe both were needed.
You seem to presume that there was an initial Windows release that wasn’t in someway fundamentally broken or feature incomplete. Fact is, every Windows OS ever released took a few service packs/updates in order to fix stuff that was missing or broken, XP included.
Fixed it for you.
No, the bloat was added in Vista and was actually trimmed a bit by the time 7 came out. The (minimal) system requirements really jumped up from XP to Vista and have mostly stayed the same ever after.
Stability was really the main point of the bloat that was added to NT 6. Video-drivers removed from the kernel, WinSxS folder to fix DLL-hell that broke every XP-pc (that changed software regularly) “sooner than later”, very modular system build and maintenance tooling (dism), completely modernized bootmgr, winPE, installation procedure
While minimum system requirements may not have changed much, in everyday use doing anything beyond surfing the web works better with four cores, an SSD, and 8-GB of RAM. So, what is really needed has changed, just not officially.
Firefox or Chrome are not Windows’ “(minimal) system requirements” :p
Kochise,
It’s a valid point, but that now microsoft themselves have ditched their own browser for a fork of google’s, it kind of blurs the line there. 🙂
People love saying this, but don’t consider how much newer hardware, like high DPI screens, have come along over time. That 2k+ resolution screen on your 13-14″ laptop isn’t going to be readable on XP or 7.
dark2,
That’s a problem I would love to have! Seriously I am rather disappointed at how little the resolution specs have improved for many commodity laptops. I refuse to buy anything with less than 1024 vertical display resolution because that is bad in this day and age. It wasn’t great in the 1990s/2000s and desktops became better, but to this day there are so many laptops that still feature low resolutions like 1024×768, 1280×720, etc. Aiming for something that’s at least 1k+ weeds out most of the devices on the market 🙁
https://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_resolution_higher.asp
I realize this includes mobiles, but regardless the proliferation of low resolution devices is the bane of web developers everywhere, haha.
I remember very vividly how you spat on users wanting to remain on Windows 7 instead to jump in the Windows 10 bandwagon. Because so much more technological advanced, more secure, wada wada. I always said that there would be a trade-of someday. And here we are…
Still using Windows 2000 (eat 50MB at boot) and XP (eat 110 MB at boot) btw. You can turn them pretty secure with little configuration. And they just do what they used to do, that’s to say what we still do nowadays : web, office, game, dev.
Most modern hardware doesn’t work on XP anymore
Most modern webbrowsers don’t run on XP anymore
Most modern games do’nt work on XP either
Most modern IDE’s don’t work on XP either
Most office suites MIGHT work but with very limited capabilities.
XP cannot even boot from a modern M2 SSD or UEFI
The world has moved on from XP a very long time ago and if you think XP is still useful for things we currently do you are probably doing things the same way as in the past.
Windows 7 is by no means the perfect OS but just like XP (SP3) was “perfect at the time and for quite a while after” the same can be said for Windows 7.
But Windows 10/11 just have so many more goodies built in that have to be added to Windows 7 that Windows 10/11 are just much more complete by default. You CAN make 7 be just as usable as 10/11 but that takes knowledge and time (just like you CAN make 11/10 behave like 7)
Somethings that were NOT in 7 but are in 10/11 that are incredibly useful:
WinKey+X for a lot of useful system tools with just a few keystrokes
A proper terminal (Windows 7 only had cmd and couldn’t resize its width)
Proper search and browser built-in
Modern (optional) goodness like OneDrive integration, Settings Sync, AppStore
Much better handling of multiple monitors, virtual desktops, window layout (Winkey [ctrl/shift]+arrows)
…but from a programs-that-you-can-run-on-it and hardware-that-you-can-run-it-on perspective not much has changed between 7 and 10/11
There are no “many more goodies built in” that renders Windows 10/11 absolutely a must have. Sure XP is “old” but at least it makes my perfectly usable 2007 PC working, what Windows 10 doesn’t. Of course the world moved on, new hardware and stuff, thank to the lack of driver support for old hardware. Being arm bent into forced obsolescence that *could* be solved with software ain’t my motto. Really. If I need a powerful computer, I’ll buy one, but when I need something lightweight, I will use it anyway.
Change my mind.
@Kochise
I mean at this point, if you don’t want to buy new hardware, you can always switch to Linux, which runs wonderfully on older hardware. Granted maybe not use all the bells and whistles of Plasma, but otherwise it should be pretty snappy even with Gnome, KDE, etc. Or if you want something really light and shiny, Enlightenment is different, but awesome.
Kochise,
I feel the same way. I absolutely hate throwing away perfectly good hardware because the vendors won’t support the software. Every time I upgrade windows, I loose support for various hardware.
On the one hand, I understand that evolution may require changes. But on the other hand microsoft has been guilty of breaking things for policy motivations such that sometimes an owner is unable to install a driver that is otherwise technically compatible, grr!
IMHO, so long as we’re dependent on binary drivers that aren’t getting updates, the OS should be flexible enough to enable the use of old drivers via ABI shims. This would be very useful for android as well, but alas I know this is wishful thinking. We’re just expected to throw away old working hardware instead…how asinine.
Problem is, the Windows 10/11 shortcuts could have been added to Windows 7 as well, it’s not like it requires a whole kernel change for that. I installed a bunch of free utilities to my Windows and it just do that.
Have I to upgrade to Windows 10 just to finally have linux eol support in Notepad after 20 years ? They could have made a lot more work in maintaining their OS with these kind of “shortcuts” instead to waste their time adding Paint 3D.
But I understand their business plan, if someone is falling to the easy treat, good for them. I’m not. I need my stuff to do the work I need to be done. Not fancy shit that I have already from a 3rd party supplier.
Did you know I use Total Commander as an Explorer replacement for pretty much… as long as I use Windows ? That’s to say circa 2001 ? It was named Windows Explorer in that era though https://www.ghisler.com/name.htm And I won’t just upgrade to another Windows if Microsoft decides to include something else than their half brained file explorer.
Linux is not completely a solution, mostly because if these damn fucking GPU drivers and so. And the constant system maintenance required to get it working. Linus showed it pretty well in his series of video. While it gets Linux stamped on it, those distros are essentially different OS because different GUI, different package manager, even different file layout.
So for now, until they get their shit together in a more graceful manner, I won’t consider it a viable alternative to Windows. And Microsoft knows it quite well.
Kochise,
Linux isn’t everyone’s cup of tea and I don’t think there’s much sense in pushing it for people who don’t want it. That doesn’t bother me since it’s natural for people to have different opinions. But many never even consider buying linux hardware and OS from a vendor that provides official support for linux, have you? The reason I ask is that all too often people’s linux experience is based on using random hardware with no official linux support from the vendor whatsoever. This is kind of the logical equivalent to a hackintosh and I find it ironic how many beginners including LTT will go down this path outside of vendor supported channels. While this approach works for many people, they need to acknowledge the fact that they’ll be responsible for their own support. IMHO anyone who’s time is too valuable to build an unsupported hackintosh probably has no business building an unsupported franken-linux either.
Not only there are only a few, but they are mostly geared toward office usage, which doesn’t need a specific hardware to run, see https://www.osnews.com/story/134460/review-slimbook-executive/ to get an idea. Where are the gaming oriented Linux machines ?
Anyway, that sounds like the old MS tactics bundling its OS with every PC sold. You know, that “Designed for Windows(R) XP / Windows VistaTM compatible” sticker.
It annoys me to still have these kind of limitation in 2022. Hardware vendors should release their data sheets like in the good old days and let people buy/use their hardware at will.
Dammit.
Kochise,
I agree there are too few linux vendors, that’s one of the problems that makes adoption more difficult.
It annoys me as well. Consumers are often forced to buy bundles they don’t want. The corollary argument is “if you don’t want it, then don’t buy it”, but that ignores just how pervasive the microsoft monopoly over commodity PCs remains after all these years.
Antitrust proceedings are always going to be ugly, but for decades now regulators should have been prohibiting forced bundling at the very least, even if no other action were taken.
What do you use for web on XP? The best option I’ve found so far is a very outdated version of Pale Moon (the last version that will run on XP).
Opera legacy (12.18) but the TLS 1.3 support is lacking.
https://www.softwaretesttips.com/best-browsers-for-windows-xp/
https://rigorousthemes.com/blog/best-browsers-for-windows-xp/
http://retrobrowsers.com/windowsxp
But I don’t use my XP computer for Internet. Mostly to support some MFC code with an old Visual C++ compiler that still do its job.
Aye, I can relate…
As a Windows user, I remember when we were making fun of Mac OS users for being arbitrarily blocked from new Mac OS versions by Apple, while we were running Windows 10 flawlessly on Vista-era hardware. The only breakage was during the XP -> Vista transition, and it was done for a reason (and it coincided with the 64=bit transition anyway, which broke all 32-bit drivers). Fun times…
It’s obvious Microsoft abandoned the “Windows as a (vessel for) service (upsells)” model in favour of the “Windows sold with new hardware” model that Apple follows.
Still, were to go? To the place where asking about driver support involves discussions about the GPL and kernel trees? Nah, Windows 10 LTSC it is.
Yes, I just worry the “L” in “LTSC” ain’t so long!
Shouldn’t long be at least as long as the hardware lasts?
Perhaps they will do something devious and start degrading battery life with an OS patch if the hardware turns out to last too long!
Feel sorry for the early adopters, ARM / Risk then made obsolete, now it’s back but not for the original early adopters who have cupboards full of museum pieces!
By 2029, most pre-Windows10 laptops will be museum pieces and Chrome will require 32GB of RAM (64GB if you need several tabs open), so if you have a pre-Windows 10 PC, the LTSC is a nice way to avoid Windows 11, not just the watermark annoyances but other mitigation stuff which on older CPUs makes them run slow (Windows 10 has that disabled by default on those CPUs).
I can’t help but feel most of the dissatisfaction posted about any evolving OS is basically a resistance to change, and when I look at the popularity of some OS that seems to bear that thought out.
However, I also acknowledge one of my biggest bugbears for any evolving OS is lack of backwards compatibility with hardware, the purveyors are all guilty of this, and all I ask is that if they choose to break a major hardware compatibility they should commit to long term support of the last useful variant, yet none of them do. Linux, Apple, MS, they all leave the support for legacy hardware to niche user groups, or even actively block the use of legacy hardware altogether, none of them have the high moral ground in this respect!
cpcf,
I actually think linux stands out ahead for long term hardware support with mainline drivers.
I know this is just anecdotal… I have had to throw away plenty of hardware after windows manufacturers stopped supporting the windows drivers, but to date this hasn’t happened to me with linux on x86, not even once. Linux has allowed me to keep using my hardware until it dies or I determine it’s time to replace it.
On the one hand it is an obvious con that linux has poor manufacturer support. However on the other hand the independence from manufacturers is actually a big advantage for long term support specifically. Having the source code makes a huge difference for linux to avoid the EOL scenarios that plague proprietary operating systems and drivers.
I do understand that perspective, but I think some of the older hardware support under Linux comes from the efforts of individuals who contribute to Linux “catching up” through resurrection of obsolete hardware rather than Linux refusing to evolve past a hardware generation. I have hardware that was otherwise obsolete on MS or Apple that has only just recently become available to Linux. I don’t see that as being the same issue, those projects could have easily been completed on another platform, but Linux is of course attractive because many of those projects are rooted in low cost re-use of old / obsolete hardware.
But in contrast I also have aspects of some hardware(laptops mostly) that went unsupported for Linux (From Ubuntu 16) but are still fully supported by Win 10, so overall I’m not so confident of a clear difference between any OS vendor. It’s particularly evident in support of specific hardware features like platforms with built in early biosecurity devices, IR Ports, some sound cards, removable storage, etc., etc..
btw., Getting or keeping this stuff running often makes a mockery of those who claim Linux is viable a point and click alternative to Windows or OSX. Good luck for the Linux newbie when the solution is not to be found in “Release”, sorry for the diversion!
cpcf,
Yeah, I do come across hardware that never gets proper support under linux as well. That is frustrating for end users who just want everything to work, but as you indicated that’s a completely different problem to long term support.
You said many linux projects are rooted in low cost or obsolete hardware, but I think it has more to do with kernel developers writing drivers for whatever hardware ends up on their desk. Generally it’s the popular commodity chips/hardware that are more likely to make their way into the dev pipeline over obscure ones. Even expensive hardware can get attention from linux devs if it’s popular. This is the case for apple PCs, which are popular in the dev demographic. Hardware that does not get regular use by linux developers is less likely to get tested and have patches submitted for kernel inclusion.
I still say the long term support situation is much better in linux due to the availability of FOSS drivers and in my experience long term hardware support works well in practice. However the experience can be ruined by binary blobs (ie nvidia GPUs). Also it should be noted that some drivers aren’t even technically part of the mainline linux project. For example, I need proprietary HP drivers to use my network printer on linux; if they were to stop supporting this software/driver I would be screwed in that I’d have to throw away a working printer. Another example is the HID-UPS driver for my cyberpower UPS because cyberpower provides binary executable drivers. These unmaintainable drivers are a weak link that once left me with a conundrum because they only supported x86 and I was unable to install their proprietary intelligent UPS software for ARM computers. However I discovered that the “Network UPS Tools” project have succeeded in reverse engineering everything needed to use the smart UPS without their proprietary driver AND it successfully builds on ARM too! That brings me to the point that the FOSS drivers will likely outlive the hardware and probably all of us too, haha.
IMHO the weak link is proprietary drivers developed by companies who benefit from planned obsolescence. Alas it’s hard to convince companies to contribute FOSS drivers to extend long term support.
*** “Getting or keeping this stuff running often makes a mockery of those who claim Linux is viable a point and click alternative to Windows or OSX. Good luck for the Linux newbie when the solution is not to be found in “Release”, sorry for the diversion!” ***
The above is from the perspective of a person having Windows supported kit and looking at Linux as an incomplete solution, because the hardware isn’t supported by in-kernel drivers. Once a person commits to running Linux, this perspective shifts, as hardware that doesn’t have proper support on Linux is simply off the table.
Yes, that does limit the options in the candy store somewhat, but running with hardware that has in-kernel drivers is smooth sailing. These drivers know long support cycles and deprecation is announced long before the actual removal takes place. With kit that is well supported by Linux there are rarely driver issues.
That does remove hardware with binary-only drivers as a viable option. The flipside of that is that one will choose hardware that will keep working with Linux a long time. It’s a trade off. Do you want to be able to have a choice of ALL the goodies, but be at the whim of the manufacturer, or do you accept a smaller selection that has excellent support in-kernel. I chose the latter.
r_a_trip,
I agree. This is why I think it makes sense to measure “hardware support” on two separate scales…
1. To what extent is hardware supported by the kernel: working perfectly, working with caveats, not working at all, etc,
2. How long does support for supported hardware last.
People will always complain about hardware not working in terms of #1, which makes sense. But in my experience #2, the long term support for the working mainline kernel drivers is exceptionally good compared to proprietary drivers. So the takeaway is that consumers need to carefully select the hardware up front for a good linux experience, but by and large open source drivers mean they’ll no longer be constrained by manufacturing EOL policies.
Agreed. Additionally, I have rarely had problems installing Linux on very recent hardware, so in my experience, you don’t miss a lot. I think the most recent problem was getting a laptop WiFi working when installing a real-time Linux kernel. (The generic kernel worked fine.)That is a very obscure corner case.
r_a_trip
To the end user Linux offering/supporting a limited range hardware choices, and MS supporting a specific hardware standard are the same thing, complaining about one while praising the other at best seems arbitrary at worst cherry-picking.
So again, to a large extent this seems to be just a selected perspective some commentators wish to take, rather than any real difference. The benefits if any exist are in the fringes of the issue.
cpcf,
Well, acknowledging limited range of hardware isn’t necessarily the same thing as “praising” it.
The point r_a_trip was making is that those who’ve already accepted that hardware choices are limited tend to be less bothered by this than those who come in flat out expecting the OS to be compatible with all hardware. That mentality has long been a luxury for windows users thanks to its monopoly, but it’s the kind of thinking that will lead to a bad experience once reality hits that not all manufacturers will support your alternate platform of choice.
The same is true of mac computers too: if a windows user comes in with the expectation that they can plug in all their random windows hardware and expect it all to work, well they’re going to be disappointed when it isn’t supported. Does this means macs are bad for everyone? No, but if you start your journey using only supported hardware, your experience will be much better!
In short, judging computers by the hardware that is supported rather than the hardware that isn’t supported makes a huge difference! On that note, maybe linux desktops should add a watermark when hardware is not supported for an optimal experience and that they’re on their own.
At least that might get the message through, haha.
Alfman
I might be guilty of flourishing language, but that is not really the point.
I’m really struggling to see the difference in the behaviour of the various OS, I’d like the situation to be unambiguous but I suppose like a bad case of pareidolia once I’ve seen a similar perspective it’s hard to see something else. I would love for an OS vendor to be able to claim the high moral ground, but there isn’t. MS and Apple certainly cannot, and Linux really survives on the good will of a handful of dedicated apparatchiks, it’s hardly an institutional achievement as you point out.
I’m probably also guilty of not making a strong enough distinction between commercial and open source. To me the groups that develop OS are the same/similar regardless of the label they wear or the way income is derived. I realise that won’t sit well with some people, I don’t want to start a war!
Perhaps part of the problem is the wider public’s perception of value versus those vendors / entities, someone’s rubbish is …………………….
PS: You were on the money with your morality observation. I forget that just because the forum is in English we aren’t all English as our first language and also from similar cultural backgrounds. For that I apologise.
cpcf,
A car analogy might clear it up. If you buy parts for the wrong car and experience trouble as a result, do you…
1) blame the part
2) blame the car
3) accept that reality that trying random parts was always a risk that you’d need to be responsible for.
When it comes to linux, some people blame linux even though they chose to combine it with hardware that is poorly supported.
Good luck with that ask, considering that they already have your money, aren’t looking forward to any more of your money, and each company has a finite source of people (talent pool).
At most, you can pay them to maintain it for a couple more years or so (Windows 7 ESU comes to mind) but eventually, the proposition that they will keep occupying their people with old software won’t fly.
Even if some regulation says that software must be supported for -say- 10 years, so what? Windows 10 LTSC fulfils that role already.
At the end of the day, all proprietary software has an EOL date, it’s just that for some proprietary software it’s not known yet.
It’s why I would be hard-pressed to recommend proprietary software to run business stuff. For consumer-level stuff, it doesn’t matter for most people, they will keep using unpatched versions until the hardware claps out or it can’t run the latest browsers either due to memory requirements or OS version incompatibilites.
I honestly don’t understand why people mix “morality” with technical issues.
Because some technical issues are not bona fine technical issues but made-up ones, the result of immoral corporate behaviour. For example, cutting out perfectly capable systems from upgrades because the CPU release date is “wrong” is a good example of a made-up issue that is the result of immoral corporate behaviour.
The only “moral” behavior a corporation is expected to met in their duty to met their fiduciary obligations is to do so while operating within the law.
Subjective expectations and morality are two very different concepts.
javiercero1,
A modicum of moral standards in corporate self-governance shouldn’t be too much to ask for, but unfortunately it is. That philosophy is exactly why corporations need heavy supervision, regulation, and should not be allowed to participate in politics at all. Alas the pro-corporate types often suggest that not only do corporations have no moral obligations, but additionally they should not be regulated. To hell with the consequences to everyone on the loosing side of that equation.
Not for nothing but for freedom’s sake I’d rather not be burdened by so many regulations and have everyone play nice and show respect for the whole. But in practice the greedy and abusive guys ruin things for everyone. Now every damn little thing that corporations shouldn’t do now needs to be codified into a quagmire of laws that everyone hates, clipping our wings in the process. The bad apples are the reason why simple governments don’t work 🙁
yeah, but the problem is what “moral standard” really means.
Because “I want Microsoft’s new OS to support my old HW for free” is not a “moral standard” but a subjective expectation/entitlement instead.
javiercero1,
I agree. I believe cpcf’s use of “high moral ground” was more an expression of speech than anything we’re getting into here.
The usual spreading of FUD i guess. If you don’t use your TPM then you will damage your hardware, get hacked and locust will eat your crop. Instead of calling this BS out what people will do instead is they will enable the TPM and buy new hardware if needed. That is to not damage their hardware, get hacked and for locust to not eat their crop. Or maybe they will migrate to Linux on desktop. But they can’t ATM as their printer is apparently not working. It has something to do with drivers. The reality is Microsoft needs TPM and “online account” and … to authentication you and for granting you access to content they (plan to) provide. Such as video games … All other reasoning and disinformation behind it is just silly. And nobody really cares all that much about that. Majority is likely blaming Microsoft for why is it taking them so long.
One would think that they’d be better served to focus on the problems in their testing process (see January VPN issue) but I guess it’s easier to pretend a watermark will fix everything.
What i do wonder is if people will continue to say Linux has issues with drivers and at the same time looking at this watermark on their screens.
Geck,
Rhetorical, n’est pas? 🙂
They’re just tainting the desktop for now, but I don’t see why they would have done this at all if they didn’t already have a plan to actually go through with limiting functionality for non-TPM users in the future. If there were no such plan, then it doesn’t make sense to issue a warning. It already goes without saying that TPM specific applications won’t work without TPM. Normal consumers are not invested in TPM, which is why I am concerned that microsoft’s may intend to push user restrictions. I don’t really appreciate microsoft’s lack of transparency on this issue.
But why do you say that you are concerned? If Microsoft actually obsoletes 80% of existing hardware. People still won’t go ahead and install some popular Linux distribution on it. As after all their printer might not work after. As apparently there are driver issues on Linux. People will rather throw away that hardware and buy new one fully supporting TPM and will be happy with the restrictions TPM imposes. Likely not but hopefully for their existing printer to still work after.
I’ve kept my perfectly usable 2007 XP computer to still use my perfectly usable 2005 Brother laser printer. You don’t need to follow the “orders”.
I do imagine that the real reason on why you use an unsupported operating system, with tons of known security issues, that are never getting fixed, is there are no printer drivers for Linux? AFAIK there is no up to date web browser for Windows XP anymore. Tons of known security issues in some old version of web browser. IE 6? Sorry @Kochise but this really is not the way or a solution. For some specialized task for sure but not as a solution for using such computer for some general tasks and work in 2022. If you would use Linux instead then your hardware would likely stop working before you would be confronted with the idea you need to run unsupported operating system. Because your hardware is not supported anymore recent version.
I don’t use it to go on the internet, just maintain some old MFC code and a printer server. For up to date internet use, I have a Windows 10 laptop.
Yes that is what i thought. For example with Linux on Desktop you could still safely connect to the internet.
I have hard time compiling MFC stuff on Linux. And my old DirectX 7 games (Unreal, Battlezone) plays just fine.
Then why don’t you rather use your Windows 10 computer for that. If something isn’t working for you on Linux. And turn the other PC in a secure and internet ready device. As for games on Linux. I feel that Linux now supports more then enough games for that to still be the factor in the discussions.
The XP machine is a VIA C7 @ 2GHz with only 1GB of RAM, I don’t think there’s any change it’ll survive a journey on the internet of today. It cannot even display a FullHD video despite having a Nvidia FX5200 PCI card. But it works for what it was purposed to, no need to embarrass myself with a Linux distro that will be obsolete in 6 months anyway.
Geck,
You just answered the question with two of the concerns:
1. Forced obsolescence is bad for the environment. This also exacerbates the silicon shortage and doubly so considering that even owners of modern high end machines are being told that they need new hardware.
2. The normalization of device restrictions for the masses tends to impede owner rights and can even harm free markets competition.
Do you recon current system could really work if it would take environment into consideration? In my opinion that is impossible as they are mutually exclusive. Current system works at the expense of the environment. Things like turning off water when brushing your teeth are lovely but have 0 impact. If you would really want to use a supported device for 15 to 20 years. Then you already have that option. Use Linux on desktop and choose hardware with upstream drivers. But people in general don’t want that. They are OK with the current system. Where they change devices more frequently and are happy to live under restrictions such devices provide. As for the second point. Microsoft has had a monopoly for decades now and is severely restrictive in this area. Hence it’s pointless to be concerned about that anymore. As that already happened. Windows users are in my opinion angry at Microsoft for what is it taking them so long. As they want to be more restricted and have ace’s to more content they are prepared to pay for. With their privacy or money. Doesn’t make much difference to them. The only thing they don’t like is on why they have to wait so long for it to happen. If you don’t believe me just wait and see. That is just track the percentage drop when some restriction gets implemented. History shows that it’s not detectable.
Hi, I’m ready to go full Linux for my next laptop : just make sure Qubes works on Asus gx650. With full features supported (Ryzen 6000, 3080Ti, 64 GB memory, …)
Thank you.
Geck,
Huh? I must be completely misunderstanding your point. Clearly microsoft policies could either save millions of computers from the landfill or send millions more computers to the landfill based on little more than supporting an upgrade path.
Yes the windows monopoly has been around for a long time, but microsoft’s attempts to have more control over what users can do could have grave consequences to open computing. I think it is very naive not to be concerned.
Geck,
Do you really not turn off the water when brushing your teeth?
Western US regions like california are suffering from catastrophic water shortages and imposing madatory water use limits where everyone is supposed to do their part. That’s water that someone else could be drinking or using to grow food.
@Kochise
I wouldn’t recommend Qubes. Just start with regular distribution. Such as Ubuntu or Kubuntu or Debian or Fedora or Arch … As for you asking me to make sure something will work for you. You got all this wrong. You have to make sure it works for you. Nobody owes you anything. And remember to say thank you to the developers of the Linux distribution you will choose and in addition to all that don’t forget to occasionally donate some money to them. Once per year will do. Don’t be too cheap when doing it.
@Alfman
Exactly. We would now start talking about saving environment by turning water off while brushing our teeth. And after to sit in a SUV, turn on your latest iPhone and post on the Instagram on how environment friendly we are. Then go to work in a lithium ore mine. As for Microsoft debate. Microsoft already has full control over what you can do with your computer. As for concerns about “open computing”. Microsoft has already obsoleted a lot of hardware in the past. That is if installing newer version of Windows was possible there was no device drivers available anymore. And instead of migrating to supported and more open operating systems. Still having support for such hardware. Instead of that older unsupported and insecure versions of Windows continued to be used.
@Geck I know what work for me, Qubes it the distro I chose, don’t tell me that some Linux worth less than the other, otherwise consider them being different operating systems yet all branded as Linux. Which is misguiding. How people not aware are supposed to know which one is ? I want to use the laptop I buy and not having to thank anyone for the privilege of being able to use it. I can understand the effort developers are putting into it, but it’s a shame it cannot be more straightforward.
Geck,
I’m having difficulty following this discussion to be honest.
Oh but it can get much worse.
Yes, but never so arbitrarily. Usually hardware becomes incompatible with new versions of windows because the manufacturers dropped support and won’t provide new drivers, which was not entirely microsoft’s fault. But this time, assuming they proceed with their warnings, it will be 100% microsoft’s fault.
I’ve done this too, but it came to the point where the software I needed to use was no longer compatible with the older windows operating systems capable of running the hardware. I’ll echo Kochise’s sentiment about it: Being arm bent into forced obsolescence that *could* be solved with software ain’t my motto.
@Kochise
If you claim you can’t install Qubes on your hardware, due to your hardware not supporting Linux, then IMHO you can’t exactly claim Qubes works for you. I imagine that you likely just read somewhere on the internet. On how secure Qubes is and on how private it is? And you read all that while using Windows and while using Chrome browser? As for my advice to you. If Linux really doesn’t work on your hardware then sell your hardware and buy such hardware that has good support for Linux. There are plenty of high end laptops out there with great support for Linux in 2022. Some great ones having the option to buy with Linux preinstalled. Do that if you actually want to use Linux or just continue to use Windows and stop making lame excuses.
@Alfman
Worst in what way? For people to care even less? That is for GNU/Linux on desktop and Firefox market share to fall even lower? Yeah. That would really be bad. As for better option regarding obsoleted hardware. The oldest computer i use is now around 15 years old. It runs Linux on desktop and Firefox. I could imagine that if the hardware doesn’t die out it will continue to be used for such purposes for the next 5 years. That is 20 years of latest and greatest operating system and web browser and other applications support. And market share for this option is at 1%. While people “being afraid” on what Microsoft might do next, environment impact …. All in all for me it just doesn’t add up. Concerned and afraid people being prepared to do something about it don’t act like this. They act on it and until GNU/Linux on Desktop and Firefox options are at around 30% (each). Until then it’s just pointless to discuss (potential) Microsoft actions seriously. Will side with Greta on this one. Blah, blah, blah …
Geck,
I get the feeling this is an OS turf war that won’t have a resolution, but ignoring that this is actually sound advice for those interested in linux.
Geck,
Really? I’m surprised that you can’t come up with any ways for microsoft to make things worse. DRM can get worse. Ads & spyware can get worse. Desktop walled gardens can get worse. Forced services can get worse. Forced browsers and other applications can get worse, etc… And it’s not just windows that can get worse either, they could make things much worse for alt-OS too with more bootlocking and secure boot restrictions. Remember that the reason that most linux users aren’t struggling with secure boot today is because microsoft is signing linux distros. That subordinate relationship gives microsoft power over the linux community.
Sure you could argue that there will always be ways for people to buy open platforms, but I think it would be tragic for open platforms to become an increasingly marginalized niche while our dominant corporations deny it for the masses. I don’t want to see the IOSification of desktops. It is a slow transition, but regardless things could get much worse for open computing.
Things can definitely get worse for open computing and concern is warranted at the very least.
I highly doubt Greta would agree with you on this one. Spreading awareness is almost 100% of what she does whether or not people actually want to listen. But you seem determined to push this attitude that companies will do what they do and we shouldn’t worry or be concerned (was that supposed to be sarcastic? because I didn’t pick up on it). I’m not a Greta scholar, but from what I know I honestly think that’s antithetical to her message. She would raise warnings and spread awareness as opposed to downplaying them.
@Alfman
There is in general nothing wrong with your reasoning but there is one problem involved. And that is everything you wrote and predicted could happen in the future. Well all of that already happened in the past. I don’t know if Greta would agree with me or not. But likely she would agree when saying stop lying to your children. That is by turning off the water while you brush your teeth. By doing that you are really not doing all that much in regards to preserving our environment. As for concerns regarding Microsoft, privacy on the internet … Raising awareness on TikTok? Personally i just look at GNU/Linux on Desktop market share, Firefox market share … Until that numbers start raising considerably. Until then it’s pointless to lie to ourselfs and to others and to listen to some lame excuses. At best we can say we are fully aware that we don’t do anything meaningful about it.
Geck,
You are right that things are already more closed than they used to be, but you are wrong to assume that things can’t get worse for open computing.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but you sound like a broken man. However bad you think things are they can still get a lot worse and they will if we put up no resistance and wallow in self defeat. Most people are sheep and live their lives not standing up for anything, that’s why it’s all the more important to speak up like Greta does.
@Alfman
When Greta said “blah, blah, blah”. What do you reckon she meant? Surely she couldn’t mean something in the lines of look, you are all vocal about the existing issues, but why aren’t you acting on it and do something about it? What do you feel Greta would say if she would be concerned about the subject we discussed and if after she would look at the GNU/Linux market share on desktop and Firefox market share. Surely she wouldn’t say “blah, blah, blah”? Current approach is not enough anymore. It’s lame. Something needs to change and needs to get reflected in market share. The rest is pointless.
Geck,
There’s no denying that apathy is a huge problem and that was her point, but she surely did not intend to make people more apathetic. I get the distinct impression that you’re going beyond apathy and nihilism…you are starting to play for the wrong team. You’d be the one telling Greta to get off the stage.
I can’t tell you what to believe in, but if you did believe in the openness then I suggest you stop dismissing the concerns of others and stop taking positions against them.
@Alfman
I feel that it is the right thing to at some point evaluate current strategy and to determine if it’s the right one or not. GNU/Linux on desktop at 1%, Firefox currently below 5% and dropping, children turning off water when brushing their teeth … None of this can prevent what you wrote above. Things that you predict are likely to happen and you don’t want them to happen. Now is hence the time to admit that and for the strategy to change to something else. As current strategy is like you say. It’s just too apathetic and moreover it’s lame.
Geck,
You are guilty of the same apathy that you accuse others of and worse than that you’re trying to convince others to be apathetic as well. Do you recognize how this makes you personally part of the problem? Your view seems to be very linux-centric, but I want to emphasis that it’s not just linux that has ground to loose. The interests of people advocating for open technology are broader than just linux.
@Alfman
Then i assume you are OK with the current status quo? Where GNU/Linux on desktop stays at 1% for another decade, Firefox catches it in a year or two. And each child saving one cup of water at teeth brushing for preserving environment? And for when Microsoft or Google or … to do some really bad move to again listen to claims on how people will migrate to Linux and at the same time making lame excuses on why they can’t do that? Is this really the best we can do? Is this really what our concerns should be targeted at? Investing effort in keeping things like that? Or do you recon we should know better by now and do a tiny bit more than that? Anyway. Enough from my side for now.
Geck,
No, who said I was ok with the status quo?
We shouldn’t be wasting water, certainly not in regions where water is scarce. What’s your point?
Who exactly is claiming that many people will migrate to Linux? I think we need to stand up for openness for everyone whether they are linux users or not.
If you want to raise a white flag because you decided to give up on openness, well that’s your prerogative. I understand your frustration. Giving up is one thing, however actively using your words to discourage corporate dissenters and suggesting that we should just accept what comes without resisting makes it seem like you haven’t merely dropped out of the fight, you’ve actually switched teams.
@Alfman
What i am saying is today as you say only some mild form of awareness about what is going on is being spread. Hence people are indeed aware of it yet they don’t act on it. Looking at this you can clearly see that is the main problem. Who cares if people are aware of it if nobody acts on it? It’s pointless and in a way it’s worse. To be aware of something and to consider it a bad thing and to not do anything about it. For example with Windows 11 it’s “online account” and “hardware obsolescence”. Fine. We are aware of it now fully. And yet people supposedly not liking it they don’t act on it. IMHO if somebody doesn’t want to act on it then at least don’t pretend to be doing anything meaningful about it. And with Windows 12 likely the same story all over again … Fighting for more openness? Give me a break.
@Alfman
And yes saying to children to turn of the water while brushing their teeth. And explaining to them this is how they are saving the environment. And for the efforts for the most parts to stop there. People congratulating to themselves on how environment friendly they are. This in the end is just a big fat lie. If you are prepared to defend such thing to continue in the name of preserving the environment then at least have the courtesy to admit you aren’t really fighting for environment. At best to prevent water shortage in some area. And stats say California is at 7 place at number of pools in USA.
Geck,
You don’t need to tell me that. People are apathetic to imbalances of power and the abuses that comes from it until it affects them personally. Whether it’s technology, tractors, policing, wars, etc. it creeps into virtually every aspect of life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_…
I don’t deny apathy is a problem, but I vehemently disagree with your attitude that we should stop being voices for people’s rights and simply give in to authoritarianism. Do you understand why silencing the protests is worse than the apathetic masses who don’t show up to the protest?
@Alfman
Note that i don’t have anything against you and i feel you are a good person with good views. As for the debate. At some point more than enough awareness is built and viable solutions provided. After all that happens it’s time to act. We are way passed all that in 2022. Openness, hardware support and longevity, privacy, preserving environment … Until GNU/Linux on desktop market share stays at 1%, Firefox market share continues to near that, adults continue to swim in their pool in Cali … Blah, blah, blah … Personally these days i just check the stats. To look beyond all the BS. And quickly see on what is really going on. On contrary to what is being said. These days Elon Musk is considered to be an eco warrior. The whole thing is just whacked and an insult to any reason remaining. When things like GNU/Linux on desktop market share will start to grow considerably. Then we can talk.
Openness is not specific to linux though. Maybe that’s the only path for you, which is fine, but bear in mind that not everyone wants to switch to linux. We need to fight for openness and owner rights on behalf of everyone, not not just linux users. Because if the mainstream commodity platforms become more closed, that will come back to might linux users as well and it will make alternatives even less accessible.
@Alfman
Good luck with that.
Geck,
Thank you, that’s all you needed to say 🙂
I do have one question remaining regarding that. As you promote usage of Microsoft Windows and are concerned and fighting for more openness in regards to it and are asking other people to join in. And you likely have done that in the past too and hence have the knowledge about the trend. You hence are likely the person to ask this. Do you feel that Microsoft Windows will in regards to openness be A: More open in the future. B: Equally open in the future. C: Less open in the future.
Geck,
Well for starters I am not promoting the usage of microsoft windows so much as accepting that some people are dependent on it or don’t like linux. I don’t think shoving them onto linux unwillingly is appropriate, but I do think they can still stand up for owner rights and that we should support them.
Microsoft’s behavior really depends on the public’s collective behavior. What we demand and how we react has a strong impact when we speak with a common voice. They’ve backed away from unpopular moves, but if we simply give up then they will surely take advantage.
To me maximizing openness for the masses is more fundamentally important than the masses migrating to linux in the same way that pushing pro-environment policies is more fundamentally important than being in the green party. Having preconditions that we won’t work together because they’re in different groups is shortsighted and counterproductive, IMHO. The us-vs-them mentality produces divisiveness and infighting that tares the world apart with nothing to show for it.
@Alfman
Could you please answer my question? A, B or C?
Geck,
Oh, in my mind I already did respond to it. A, B, and C are not set in stone. Rather it depends on whether there are enough of us to fight the restrictions. Our collective voices are powerful, but we will loose if we just give up and let corporations do whatever they please.
@Alfman
Meh.
Geck,
Trust me I get that speaking for freedoms on other operating system is not your battle and that’s fine. But I’d still like to suggest that advocating for owner rights isn’t just for linux. We should encourage everyone to be an advocate for owner rights even when they don’t use our preferred operating system. We shouldn’t be derailing the messaging around owner rights over OS preferences. Rather we should be minimizing the friction that divides us and focus on what unites us.
@Alfman
One thing we could do is to install GNU/Linux on desktop on all hardware Microsoft decided put an unsupported watermark on. In the next couple of years. That would be a good start.
Geck,
If you can convince people to do that, then great…but be sensitive to people’s needs. For better or worse, telling users that they need to run linux on all that hardware is risky. Linux won’t realistically run well on all of it. And even if it does support their hardware it probably won’t support their preexisting software.
A lot of people (including myself at one point) experience difficultly and frustration in switching because there are hurdles. This isn’t describing you personally, but I cannot underscore this next point enough: linux elitism from die hard linux fanboys is such a major irritant! I actually think their “we know better than everyone else” attitude has done a great deal of harm for linux’s reputation without them even realizing it. Average newbies just want an OS that works and not to be spoken down to. IMHO we as a linux community need to be more welcoming and pragmatic. We should not oversell linux is a way that will set up users for disappointment and resentment. Maybe they cannot use linux now, but might be more open minded to it over time.
So maybe you’ve got ideas for encouraging more linux uptake? I picked it up because magazines were including linux boot CDs, which was pretty cool. But today I think every one of those magazines went out of business. 🙁
Suck it up stop whining and do something about it. Would be my advice. When looking at the watermark saying Windows doesn’t support your hardware. Hence i guess it could damage it and the hardware could explode. IMHO it makes sense to at least check if GNU/Linux on desktop has the same watermark. But yes i know. I know. What about the printer drivers.
Geck,
Ok but not for nothing who is the one here who’s been whining about linux loosing market share and complaining that things are hopeless? Hint: that’s been you throughout the entire thread. Will you take your own advice: stop whining and do something about it?
Linux may work for some and if so then great. But being so judgemental of others’ choices is not helpful so maybe try letting that go. We should be encouraging people from all corners to be vocal about owner rights. Consider it as different battles in the war against owner restrictions.
@Alfman
I said Firefox was losing market share. Not GNU/Linux on desktop. As for GNU/Linux on desktop market share. For that i said it’s shameful on how low it is in regards to everything we discussed. As for the rest i stand by my initial remark. Suck it up stop whining and do something about it. If you don’t want to do that. Fine. Just continue to use something else. Less favorable to the things we discussed extensively. And by doing that don’t pretend somebody owes you something. Like more openness in a walled garden.
Geck,
But why the hypocrisy? You’ve just complained about the state of things and complaining that it’s pointless. “Suck it up stop whining and do something about it.”
Victim blaming shows that you still don’t understand that commercial operating systems are not going away. If you were to succeed in convincing their users to stop resisting the removal of owner control on their platforms then the scale becomes worse and not better. Sure I get that you want more people to use linux and FF, I do too. It isn’t easy especially given that we’re up against resourceful monopolies that have all the money, network effects, and power. But if you internalize your mantra about whining, then *you* should be doing less whining and doing something about it. Come up with new ways to educate people and promote FOSS. If you are unwilling/unable to do that then perhaps stop judging people by a mantra that you yourself can’t follow.
@Alfman
Lets leave it be for now. No real point in going in circles. Said that i would be happy if you could still answer my question above. That multiple options one.
Geck,
I don’t know what questions you mean, but I concur that it’s a good place to stop.