“With Longhorn, the next version of Windows due out in 2005, the company will take its first serious stab at delivering on Gates’ vision. And a new application programming interface (API) framework, code-named Avalon, will be at the core of Longhorn’s new information-access architecture, according to sources. Avalon is the key to the new “inductive” user interface that will debut in Longhorn, sources say. The new UI will allow users to organize and share information more intuitively, most likely using some kind of “dock,” a la Microsoft Office XP, sources say. “ Read the report at eWeek.
Microsoft Readying ‘Avalon’ Framework for Longhorn
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Maybe I am alone in this but I quite like the Windows start bar – its a definite improvement over the mac bar it was accused of cloning ( WTF? It never had anything like similar functionality anyway ) because its simple, it allows simple Alt-Tabbing – something a friends Mac still has trouble getting right.. and it doesnt attempt to confuse the issue.
I just feel that for MS to try some sort of Dock approach – doubtless with sections for apps and files, and tasks built in… would be too much like following someone elses idea and not really geared toward intuitive computing.
On my XP Box I have the classic start menu under Luna and individual Taskbar entries instead of grouping.. and I use the Powertoys Alt-tab replacement screen.. now THAT was a truly useful idea by MS.
I don’t think I’m going to like its replacement…
I really can’t wait to get my hands on Longhorn, looking forward to the beta program.
Microsoft follows, that don’t create anything original.
> Microsoft follows, that don’t create anything original.
This is not true. And in fact, this is pure flamebait and you should constrain yourself from zealotry.
I do not believe that Longhorn will have anything to do with OSX. I believe it will be much more technologically advanced. Do not forget, it will come out in 2005. We already know about the new filesystem it will feature, the 2D/3D capabilities on the desktop and some other stuff like integrated .NET.
Personally, I am excited about Longhorn. It is just the next gen Windows, as XP was the next step over the the 9x codebase.
There is an interesting article about inductive interfaces at:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwui/html/iuiguidelines.as…
> Microsoft follows, that don’t create anything original.
This is not true. And in fact, this is pure flamebait and you should constrain yourself from zealotry.
I do not believe that Longhorn will have anything to do with OSX.
He never said OSX Euginia… You must have thought of that on your own 🙂
I think all big leaps in operating systems are exciting – we are OS junkies, aren’t we??? <g>
Read his header. He puts Avalon/Longhorn equal ot MacOSX.
Many of these new announcements about longhorn remind me of beos:
new fs = bfs
avalon = live queries
I could be wrong. But the new way of “ordering things”, where you look at files by content instead of directory, well, I can do that now on my be box. And, I do it all of the time.
There has also been talk on GlassElevator about going even further with this on the desktop, which also sounds like some of the ideas behind avalon that were speculated about in the article.
oh well, that’s just one man’s opinion.
Longhorn actually had some nice, innovative features. It remains to be seen if they are useful or annoying in day to day work. They’d better do something, because they are killing Windows 2000, and I am never going to use XP. Of course, Win2K still works, I guess…
I MISS teh BeOS, damet!1!!11
Sandwich Boy Raps: http://www.mp3.com/highc
BeDoper is currently 404…
“He never said OSX Euginia… You must have thought of that on your own :-)”
erm, yes yes he did.
“Avalon (2005) = Mac OS X (2000) as Win95 (1995) = Mac OS (1987)”
notice the part about mac os x ………..
😛
I think Microsoft should spend less time “innovating” and more time refining. These features sound like bloat to me. Most of Microsoft’s “innovations,” when to comes to information management, fall short. Then they leave the feature inconsistent and half-implemented.
I never use drag & drop and not all programs support drag & drop consistently. I have to manage my programs separately in the file system, registry, start menu, desktop, and quick launch.
The start menu is a great idea but the implementation is atrocious. Organizing it is time consuming because of inconsistent software packaging by vendors. In Windows XP it takes several seconds for the start menu to display my meager list of programs.
Configuration is lousy. Some things are configured from My Computer, some from My Computer -> Properties, some from the Control Panel. Not to mention the commonly used but hidden utilities “msconfig” and “winipcfg.” (Hidden in a heaping pile of EXE’s & DLL’s I don’t need and never asked for.) The “Manage Computer” featured in Windows 2000 is a step in the right direction.
So much for intuitive!
Microsoft can’t even get these simple, simple things right with thousands of paid programmers. I shudder to think of how they are going to mutilate their currently half-working system. This is not just an over-haul – this is an experimental over-haul.
Another thing just to continue the stream of whining. Microsoft finally ditched support for IE50 a few weeks ago. I gave in and upgraded IE55 on the machine I am using now (Pentium 200). Can somebody explain to me why it takes IE55 37 seconds to load? IE50 took maybe 10 seconds. This is on a nearly pristine installation. I can’t even really see the difference between the two. They forced me to “upgrade” to this crap!
These guys need a feature freeze and time to get their shit together. There are no excuses. I would pay top price for a lean mean Windows XP. I would pay nothing for Longhorn.
Dude, why did you think XP would run decently on that hardware? I would suggest running more than 32 MB of RAM, too.
yeah, if you wanna run anything decently on Xp you need alot more than a Pentium 200 –
Currently my 566mhz celeron w/ 256 MB ram works VERY nicely…. sept IE 6 has a few problems…
Microsoft can not force all applications to use Drag ‘n’ Drop, the programmers have to support it.
Again, Microsoft can not force software vendors to put their stuff into certain areas, it is up to the vendors to do that.
I would say it takes exactly 400ms to open it up, as that is the default setting in the registry, if it takes any longer that is YOUR system, not MS programming.
There is nothing that you configure in My Computer.
Of course, you can configure just about EVERYTHING from Control Panel. The others ways that you speak of are merely shortcuts.
These applications are hidden because they are for advanced users only, and should not be used by the common user.
Don’t complain about speed when you are running on hardware that is nearly a decade old.
So, I think that’s just about every single point that you tried to make. Did I miss anything?
Well first off I gave the wrong impression. I am running Windows 98 on my Pentium 200. I am running Windows XP on my Athlon 950. I wouldn’t think of running Windows XP on my Pentium 200.
But you guys are all missing the point. Five years old or not, Windows XP should run like a dream on a Pentium 200 with 32 Mb RAM. Besides, Windows 2000 (and later) will not even install on a computer with less than 64 Mb RAM.
You’re right. Microsoft can’t force drag and drop and file system conventions. Microsoft can encourage standards and good standards at that. But they won’t. They can’t even hold themselves to good standards. A slightly modified API would encourage implementation of drag & drop.
And look at all the ghost directories Windows (2000 and later) leaves behind. All the junk I specifically never asked for gets installed. Microsoft play a piss poor role model so why would I expect better from the Vendors?
The start menu on Windows XP takes far longer than exactly 400 milliseconds to open. If you don’t believe I can take my stopwatch out. Have you even used XP? We’re talking about completely different things. As far as I know there is no registry setting to change load times on Photoshop or Half-Life, is there? I’m talking about the time it takes for Windows XP to scan all of the programs in your Start Menu for icons (or whatever it does), not the delay setting.
Yes the “other ways” (non-Control Panel ways) of changing settings are short cuts. The point was they are inconsistently implemented. Can anybody explain to me why Web Folders is under My Computer and nowhere else? Or how it even got on my computer?! (Microsoft Office damn you.) Hmm?
Who is to say what utility is too advanced for a “common user.” Back in the day, I had to find about these tools the hard way. “winipcfg” isn’t exactly dangerous anyway. There are better solutions than completely burying these tools in a heaping pile of junk files.
Anyway it looks like everyone’s just nit-picking and conveniently missing the point. Microsoft has had seven years to fix up Windows 95. As far as bloat and performance it’s gotten worse – but with lesser interface improvements. Now Microsoft are trying new weird things when they can’t even get the old things right.
Yes, I believe I have used WinXP beta tested the thing from beta1.
Tell me, why should XP (or 2000) run like a dream on a P200?
Micrsoft, in general, sets a standard within Windows that they usually follow (with exception to the Office UI, which is slightly different than other apps.)
On my Athlon 900, the programs menu pops up right away(after the 400ms delay). Doesn’t have to scan anything.
I don’t know what ghost directories you are referring to, would you care to point them out?
As far as the web folders, I don’t see what you’re talking about, perhaps it’s just on your Win98 install and something not in XP.
What do you care where these tools are? You know about them don’t you? They obviously aren’t hard to find out about.
Windows95 has absolutely nothing to do with 2000 or XP, as they are completly different code bases. The NT code base has always required more power than 9x.
My XP box is both stable and quick, I don’t see what you mean by not being able to get the old things “right”.
Remember, you are but a mere fraction of a percentage point (a very small fraction, at that) of Microsoft’s user base, and they can’t do everything the way you want it.
I really can’t help but wonder if Magnum would be FUDing just as hard and saying that “Microsoft never innovates” if Microsoft was not undertaking the Longhorn project. I think some people will never be satisfied with Microsoft no matter what they do (unless MS fails, which is really what they are hoping for).
Wasn’t that a mystical place that for some odd reason could never be reached..?! How fitting for a MS-product… 😉
You may wish to try Keyboard Access on Mac OS X. It’s readily configurable via System Preferences, and allows a user to quite easily navigate through the Dock, and each program’s menu, with the arrow keys.
Microsoft may have been accused of stealing the taskbar concept from Apple(in fact it is reminiscent of the app switcher from 9.x and earlier), but in fact the idea was stolen from NeXT’s GUI.
Which is now Apple, so in a roundabout kind of way…. 🙂
XP is quite usable on K6/2 400/128Mb and fine on my Cel 500/192
If you disable all visual effects and the 400ms wait for start – its good.
BTW Win2K runs on 225mhz Cyrix PC very well too…
I’ve got three HP Vectra XU Pentium Pro 200’s, with 64MB, 96MB, and 192MB RAM. Windows 2000 Server runs quite well on all of them. Now I don’t do anything too fancy on any of them:
PPRO200 64MB – Windows 2000 DNS server
PPRO200 96MB – Windows 2000 Web/FTP server
PPRO200 192MB – FreeBSD 4.4 Apache/PHP/MySQL server
These boxes all work, all are solid and reliable, and are all relatively quiet. The FreeBSD box is not any more reliable or stable than the Windows 2000 box. And it took me 1/10 the time to get the W2K boxes up and running.
With Bill Gates at the helm, this product line will be fantastic. I think there will be quite a few new and clever ideas.
Without Cutler, though, I wonder if it will be efficient. Cairo is what makes me worry.
#m
… If longhorn’s filesystem gets to be as good as BFS
… If Avalon is TRULY a new API and NOT a wrapper around Win32, in a way such as Carbon and Cocoa.
… If it looks and performs as nicely as OS X does.
The point is: in OS X, if you want to configure something, it is in the PreferencePanes or, if it is related to a single application, in the Preferences window for that application, which is ALWAYS located in the Application menu. When I try to do that in windows Xp… well, sometimes I have to use Control Panels, somtimes i don’t, and I have to use My Network’s settings in the contextual menu. In apps, the settings or preferences, or options (it has sooo many different names) are sometimes under the File menu, sometimes under Edit, sometimes under Help… It is inconsistent.
Microsoft CAN force consistent Drag’n’drop support all across the system, by building it into the system. Every single OS X app supports at least a primitive form of d’n’d. About the Dock functionality, well, if it is as useful as Office XP’s, I will love it. For sure. I can’t tell if I will like Longhorn better than OS XII (or whatever is out by that time). I can tell I have two machines at home: a pc and a mac, both with the latest OSs built for them: WinXP and MacOSX 10.1.5. I only turn on the PC for using my old unsupported scanner and my old unsupported digital camera.
I wouldn’t love Microsoft to fail. I would love to see Microsoft providing a satisfactory software product or else fail. Nobody ever has had long-lasting success by providing low-quality high-priced products. And, even though XP is a start, it is extremely low quality. Unfinished. It feels as inconsistent to a OSX user as Linux/KDE looks to a Windows user.
I have said.
He never said OSX Euginia… You must have thought of that on your own 🙂
From his title” “Avalon (2005) = Mac OS X (2000) as Win95 (1995) = Mac OS (1987)”
But you guys are all missing the point. Five years old or not, Windows XP should run like a dream on a Pentium 200 with 32 Mb RAM. Besides, Windows 2000 (and later) will not even install on a computer with less than 64 Mb RAM.
Why should it? It only way it could is by removing features…. which is indeed possible by installing an old version of the OS (like NT4).
The start menu on Windows XP takes far longer than exactly 400 milliseconds to open.
Besides the animation, the start menu opens very fast, my stop watch couldn’t count it. There is a guide somewhere to kick out all sort of animations, but I don’t know where (it wasn’t me who remove the god-forsaken animation).
I really can’t help but wonder if Magnum would be FUDing just as hard and saying that “Microsoft never innovates” if Microsoft was not undertaking the Longhorn project. I think some people will never be satisfied with Microsoft no matter what they do (unless MS fails, which is really what they are hoping for).
Wait, I think a lot of people would be happy with Microsoft if they ditched DRM, make all their patents royalty free, open their API, kow tow to their competitors, GPL all their apps, write articles at FSF to promote Free Socialism… err.. Software and go bankrupt in all 🙂
—
I don’t understand what Avalon suppose to be. Is it a extention of Win32 like Win32 was an extention of Win16, or is it something new, with compatiblity libraries, ala Carbon and Cocoa?
As far as the start menu thing goes – you wouldn’t happen to run McAfee antivirus software would you?
Will I finally need a M$ Kernreactor and a 9000 tergahertz pc with sumthing like 800 gigs of memory. Not to forget! Do I have to spend a billion for a license wich alows me to use it for a 3 seconds?
Come on people! Consider all M$ software the black codes of death!
Why should we ever need another windows version? Ever thought of that?
Why are all you complaining about needing faster computers to run a good OS? I mean you need a good OS to run good programs! And Windows XP is a great OS.
Why should we ever read one of your posts again, I mean, you sho absolutely no inteligance for this last one, add absolultely nothing to the topic, and in general, you are just bashing.
Ever think of that?
My biggest pet peeve about Windows XP (and Microsoft apps in general) is that they are riddled with COM deadlocks. Ever witness everything on your system apparently lock-up because some Microsoft app is in a COM retry loop? The screen draw speed is poor (and doesn’t use vsync). The disk system is unintelligent and slow. And Microsoft keeps folding in more and more spy code. Lovely.
WindowsXP is solid and relatively stable, but it is no BeOS when it comes to performance or responsiveness. Of course BeOS was so bug ridden I would never trust it for anything serious. Be also had a lot of Apple mentality, one of the reasons that they failed. The company from the top down was incapable of listening. But they certainly did write some of the very best OS code ever written.
I’ve used XP Professional since Beta 1 and in many ways it has gotten worse. The ship version had more device drivers but was much slower than the Beta. Every patch Microsoft puts out generally destabilizes the system. And if you run Nvidia graphics on a VIA chipset, XP is very sensitive to what version of the Nvidia drivers you are using. Some versions will blue/black/white screen of death you for doing nothing more than moving a window.
Longhorn will require serious hardware, but it will change the world. MacOS X by 2005 may very well do the same, although one might say, “a very small piece of the world” unless Jobs gets his head out of the sand and makes better/cheaper machines or licenses the OS.
Linux is faced with an innovation dilemna. Now that they’ve copied all the top-level Windows features, where to go? World class graphics? Audio? Printing? File systems? There’s a lot that can be done, but focused innovation is always a challenge of the group mind.
Linux has the greatest potential as it is the number one OS in the world’s biggest and fastest growing market (Asia). If the Linux world could come up with a stellar solution for the Asian market, Linux would easily become the defacto OS for the world.
The only way Microsoft could challenge Linux would be to publish the Windows source code, before or after removing all the spy code.
Mac OS X is a nice, externally funded research company for Microsoft. Let Steve and the gang find a few good ideas and Bill will borrow them for inclusion in the next version of Windows. In many ways, Windows is Macintosh for the Masses. Not the same, but affordable and available, neither of which can be said about Mac.
I’m sure it will be an interesting ride, the next ten years of computing.
#m
Micheal, what makes you think that MS is spying on you?
If MS was spying on you, don’t you think it would be all over the place (just like anything wrong that is even remotely related to MS)?
Do you think MS has the time or the people to poor over information from millions upon millions of users? I think not.
Do you even have a shred of evidence that they are “spying” on you?
Uh, knowledge of Microsoft spy code is all over the place. If you’ve followed Slashdot for the past two years, you know at least the surface of it.
1. Known NSA backdoor into NT crypto.
2. MS Media Player 6.4+ informs Microsoft of every file you play, collecting profiling information on you.
3. XP scans your system for DRM purposes and reports info back to Microsoft.
4. When your XP computer crashes, the default is to send a compressed memory dump back to Microsoft — this includes the contents of all the documents currently open on your machine.
5. Microsoft is widely rumored to have cut a deal with the DOJ/USGOVT to get off easy on the monopoly case. The deal is to build in more and more monitoring software into Windows and share the data with the GOVT.
6. The German intelligence agency booted Microsoft out the door because their tests showed data going back to Microsoft.
7. Korea, China, and much of Asia is not using Windows because they know about the spy code.
8. Microsoft Passport user-tracking and profiling is currently being investigated by the EU.
You’ve got to be rather ingenuous to think Microsoft, the most powerful and persistent advocate of user monitoring and control — the latest being Palladium — is not spying on you.
It was a shock to me to find that the surface reporting laws in banking are just the surface. You don’t know it, but every single banking transaction of yours, not just those over 2.5k/10k is reported to the federal government for analysis. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Of course Microsoft has the time to look at this information. They use this knowledge of their competitors to help Microsoft win in the marketplace. And the government spends billions of tax dollars to analyze all the information that Microsoft gives them.
#m
Micheal, one thing you should learn is to not trust ANYTHING you read on Slashdot related to Microsoft, as Slashdot is probably what some would say the epitome of anti-MS bias.
1. This was never proven, even to this day.
2. I’ve never heard of such a thing, show me evidence.
3. No, XP does not scan your system for DRM purposes, I don’t know where you heard this from, but that is just pathetic.
4. When XP crashes, the next time you boot up XP comes up with a dialog saying that a piece of Windows caused a crash (which it states) and asks you if you would like to send the data to Microsoft for analysis to help resolve the issue, which, if you hit yes, it sends the data to the Windows Online Crash Analysis team, who actually have a website and give you information if there is already a fix for this or not, and if there isn’t, then it gets investigated further so they can create a fix. NONE of this is forced, and NONE of this is for spying purposes…. but I guess ANYTIME MS retrieves data on you, it MUST be spying, right? Come on.
5. Rumors, rumors, rumors…. Sounds like high school.
6. They showed data going back to MS, what kind of data, from what, and who reported this?
7. No, China isn’t using Windows because Linux is a free download, which is much easier on their pockets.
8. The EU is investigating stuff, yes, however, the EU is JUST investigating it, and actually, if you followed the news, you would know that the EU was finalizing up there report, and didn’t have much to say, but we will, see, I suppose.
All this is rumor/lie, all of it.
Well, not 1984, more like 2004, or maybe even 2014. Anyway, I wouldn’t just call all this “conspiracy theories”. I must agree with you that most of the stated “facts” have got little backing which is a bad thing because it discredits the people who worry about democratic rights.
But no matter how many false “facts” were posted, you must be were naive indeed if you think there is no reason to worry. Why? Well… DMCA, SSSCA, TCPA (“Secure computing” – yea right, security for who?) – not to mention the latest Media Player EULA. Those aren’t just rumors, they are a reality.
Now maybe MSFT don’t plan to establish an evil big brother empire just yet. However, they – along with other companies – are building up a massive spying and control infrastructure. Even if you’re once again naive and believe those companies can resist the temptation of the power that stems from such an infrastructure, you still have to be afraid – very afraid. An infrastructure like this can be easily exploited by people who are _really_ trying to subvert democracy, and then we’ll be in serious trouble.
And don’t give me any crap about how secure that infrastructure will be – we all know you can’t trust MSFT software (*cough* IIS *cough* Outlook *cough*).
About the “Linux innovation dilemma”: Well, how about the Linux folks don’t repeat MSFT’s mistake? KDE for example has a very nice feature set right now, however it does suffer from some stability and performance issues. KHTML doesn’t scale well, and starting up programs can take forever.
All these problems can be fixed while we let MSFT try out that Longhorn thing. Then one can take some of their ideas, perfect them, and implement them on top of (or inside) a robust and fast code-base.
I’m sorry, but I’m not afraid that people will be spying on my computer habits, I have nothing to hide, what do I care? I don’t do anything particularly personal on my computer, write reports, do research, chat, read news, test software, and game is about it.
Now when people start spying on my behavior, other than on the PC, then I will have a problem.