Mandriva has long had its Linux fans, but it’s recently been turning its efforts toward the business and desktop markets and, if CEO François Bancilhon has anything to do with it, Mandriva will become as big a Linux name as Red Hat and Novell in the enterprise.
if CEO François Bancilhon has anything to do with it, Mandriva will become as big a Linux name as Red Hat Inc. and Novell Inc. in the enterprise.
Some people may laugh at that, but he’s got a pretty fair chance – and why not? Red Hat aren’t doing anything special really, and in terms of research and development I think they’ve reached a bit of a limit with the software they’re using. They’re obviously not interested in solving the various problems desktop Linux needs to get over, and their server offerings could be a lot better than they are. Their new directory server and Java stuff will help there, but we’ll have to see if they can come up with all the support software around it such as admin tools.
Novell. Well really, where do you start? A lot of people still see them as this huge corporate player, but they’re just not. They have no formulated strategy about what software they’re going to present to their customers in their products, no idea about how to solve the conflict between their old and declining proprietary products and the open source software that will replace them and look as if they’re set up to copy Red Hat at the moment. Suse should have just stayed as an independent company and they could have bought Novell out by now.
There’s no reason why Mandriva can’t achieve what they want, but they’re going to have to identify the problems that are out there and solve them to succeed.
i bet
Doe’s that mean that they are goin to drop KDE for GNOME?
I didn’t see anything about that, and I don’t think that would be a good move.
Targetting just the Gnome users is a good way to reduce your potential market. They could do it, but it’s not a good move for any distribution that wants to reach the entire Linux market. A fair assumption would be saying that the split is 50/50, and that’s just to avoid controvercy here. The last convincingly accurate statistics I saw dated back to 2000 and placed KDE with a 75% user base (which is a bit high to maintain with the competition, so it probably fell at least a little).
Anyway my point really isn’t about the exact size of the user bases, basically what I’m saying is that Mandriva would be cutting themselves off from customers by choosing only one of the desktop environments. Red Hat and SUSE really don’t have much to suffer from that kind of decision (which they’ve already made) because they are targetting commercial customers who care more about apache and samba than they do about the graphical user interface.
Targetting just the Gnome users is a good way to reduce your potential market
They are not tarjering Linux users, they are tarjering bussines users, they don’t see the difference of have tendeces to any desktop, random polls just don’t feed in this case.
The summary says: “it’s recently been turning its efforts toward the business and desktop markets …”
That to me clearly seems to imply that they are targetting home users as well as business users, but if you can find text in the summary or the article that disproves that then let me know.
And they are not specific to any desktop, or are they goint to make the same misstake SUSE made trying to support both?
They have to choose one and they prolly choose one that can make them win more money, and who is goint to make them win more money? Bussines or Desktop users?
We’ve been supporting GNOME and KDE – along with the other WMs shipped in main – for many years now. What makes you say this is a mistake, and what makes you think we can’t keep on doing it?
Nothing, if you want and can do it, then do it, but if you are blind to see waht others are tried and failed then it will be your problem too, if you think you can be succesull suporting every DE then don’t stop for me, and if you are so sure you can, lets make a bet and see how things look in 2 or 3 years of this project.
Mandriva = poor quality control
Actually SUSE started off mainly as a KDE distribution with a stock and mostly unmodified Gnome desktop included among others, which in some releases didn’t even work. When Novell bought them was when they put more attention into Gnome, before eventually dropping all attention towards KDE because they wanted corporate customers, not home users. Novell is a company built around networks and the internet, they are used to commercial customers and either don’t care about, or don’t know how to market to the home users. In their case dropping KDE went along with their business model.
Mandriva has supported both successfully for a very long time now and hasn’t suffered from it. It’s no mistake to them.
Red Hat dumped KDE because they didn’t care about supporting KDE any more, they care about corporate customers, and corporate customers couldn’t care less what desktop environment they use as long as the licence is in their best financial interest should they decide to write a few of their own applications using the matching toolkit, and as long as they can configure samba and apache.
Linspire and Xandros are doing well as KDE based distributions, they don’t support more than one desktop environment, yet Xandros is also successfully selling to companies while Linspire is making it’s living off the home user market.
The mistake for a company like Mandriva would be supporting only one of the desktop environments since this article implies that they want home and corporate customers. Supporting both is no mistake in this case and can be done as Mandriva has been doing it for years.
Now if Red Hat or SUSE wanted to target home users they would have a lot more difficulty than Mandriva, Xandros, (K)Ubuntu, Linspire, etc… In fact I think it was Red Hat’s CEO who very vocally complained about his company’s inability to maket to the home user maket with detrimental and false claims that it couldn’t be done at all. It wasn’t because it couldn’t be done, it was because his company was so business oriented they were incapable of doing it.
As for Mandriva, why limit themselves to only a part of the potential market when they could have the whole thing, if the desktop market weren’t lucrative do you really think Microsoft would care about it, or for that matter would they have a “Home Edition” of Windows?
Actually SUSE started off mainly as a KDE distribution with a stock and mostly unmodified Gnome desktop included among others, which in some releases didn’t even work. When Novell bought them was when they put more attention into Gnome, before eventually dropping all attention towards KDE because they wanted corporate customers, not home users. Novell is a company built around networks and the internet, they are used to commercial customers and either don’t care about, or don’t know how to market to the home users. In their case dropping KDE went along with their business model.
Suse’s main install base included a lot of business KDE customers, I believe Suse/KDE is the most widely deployed commercial (as in people have paid for it) desktop in Europe.
Novell’s decision has since been debated ad nauseum, but at no point did they state it was being done to attract business customers with Gnome, plus they quickly re-canted by confirming Gnome would be the default desktop, not the only desktop. Had nothing to do with home users, Novell never even considered them as part of their market.
Red Hat dumped KDE because they didn’t care about supporting KDE any more, they care about corporate customers, and corporate customers couldn’t care less what desktop environment they use as long as the licence is in their best financial interest should they decide to write a few of their own applications using the matching toolkit, and as long as they can configure samba and apache.
Red Hat didn’t dump KDE, because originally they refused to support it due to the licensing issues. That has since been resolved, and KDE is fully supported by Red Hat, and has been for quite some time, although like Novell’s recent decision, Gnome is the default desktop. Also, since Red Hat originated the Gnome project (as a counter to the whole KDE licensing thing), I think it’s inevitable that they’ll remain tied to them for the near future.
Linspire and Xandros are doing well as KDE based distributions, they don’t support more than one desktop environment, yet Xandros is also successfully selling to companies while Linspire is making it’s living off the home user market.
Agreed, and I think Linspire and Xandros, as well as Libranet and the old Suse, are most relevant being KDE-based because those are distributions people paid for, whereas Gnome is the default only in community distros. I never quite understood where this whole Gnome is better for business desktops mentality came from within the Gnome camp, since KDE has a track record of deployment and paid customers.
But the other important thing is that although the KDE-based commercial desktops don’t support a Gnome desktop, they do support the libraries allowing for interoperability with GTK apps. So nobody loses out either way.
The mistake for a company like Mandriva would be supporting only one of the desktop environments since this article implies that they want home and corporate customers. Supporting both is no mistake in this case and can be done as Mandriva has been doing it for years.
Absolutely agree, it would be suicidal to support a single desktop. It’s ok to focus on a single desktop, as long as the “other” desktop is fully supported in terms of libraries and application support.
Anyways, I’m mostly agreeing with you, just wanted to clarify a couple of points.
Not sure how Gnome even got into this discussion anyways, but I guess it’s always inevitable that the desktop question comes up in any discussion about desktop distro viability. Personally, I think there’s more than ample room (and requirement) for both.
Cheers.
“Suse’s main install base included a lot of business KDE customers, I believe Suse/KDE is the most widely deployed commercial (as in people have paid for it) desktop in Europe.”
That would be Windows.
That would be Windows.
In my best Homer Simpson voice, let me say “D’OH!”
I stand corrected. Meant to say “linux desktop”…
I’ll admit there is still a little way to go before my original statement is correct
I think it’s somewhere around 40/30 for KDE and Gnome, and the last 30% on other DE’s and semi-DE’s.
But that’ still close to 50/50 if you isolate it to KDE vs. Gnome.
But it also depends on how many switching back and forth between KDE and Gnome.
On the business desktop I think the simplicity of Gnome will be important – but then – maybe not. Some might prefer the many available settings in KDE, and/or might be frustrated or confused over the apparent lack of settings in Gnome.
Anyway. Mandriva has a good chance if they can deliver a smooth product, incl. good translations.
We’ll see what time brings.
That would be the worst move Mandriva could do. They can’t be better than Redhat, who serves Gnome. Hence, the need to be different (KDE).
RedHaT commitment with GNOME/GTK is strategic for their bussines and that is why thay have succeded, Mandriva can try to do the same with KDE, but this is not about desktop preferences, it is about strategy and bussines, if they see they have more chances with GNOME than with KDE I wouln’t blame them.
I am very impressed with Mandrake’s latest offerings. I have run a web/database server on Mandrake’s enterprise offering and it has been rock solid for 3 years.
I don’t use their desktop currently, because I don’t like their configuration tools, particularly their network tools, but as a server it has been rock solid.
I also like the fact that they have slowed down the number of releases they put out to a more sane pace.
Best luck to them
The strength of Mandrake was in consumer desktop, right?
Then they bought Conectiva to boost their installed base, they said. I did not get this move as Linux distributions do not have a very loyal following (aside from few die-hard fans, if one or two releases are screwed, many are going to move to the competition – it happened so many times it is not even worth mentioning examples), but whatever…
Now they say that they want to be in the corporate market, competing against Red Hat. Now I am seriously baffled. How exactly are they going to put up with Red Hat’s certified, time-proven stacks, large installed base, its army of well-trained, experienced and certified consultants, and its vast marketing budget?
By offering a desktop-only product? A corporate will surely prefer an integrated solution from a large vendor, and it hardly seem reasonable to entrust Mandriva with your server if you can afford Red Hat.
By leveraging on their domestic market? Possibly, as the French state and some comapanies can be fiercely nationalistic. But if so, why have they bought a Brazilian company? And in any case this is a relatively small market if compared to the US, so in the long-term they stand no chance.
I am afraid that this company has either lost faith in its consumer business, or is trying to be all things for all people, a well-known recipe for disaster.
I, if in their position, would try to push for preinstallation deals with hardware manufacturers (have seen some Acer desktop sold by ebuyer.com with Mandriva but they where not very convincing products: modem not working and so on). Perhaps get into well-defined vertical markets, such as schools, which have simpler needs and are perpetually cash strapped. Kids might grow to like the desktop, producing some nice synergies with the consumer business… but surely not go head-to-head with Red Hat!
Please note that I don’t use Mandriva but have nothing against it. I go as far as saying that I hope they succeed, but I do not understand how can this happen.
” I did not get this move as Linux distributions do not have a very loyal following (aside from few die-hard fans, if one or two releases are screwed, many are going to move to the competition – it happened so many times it is not even worth mentioning examples), but whatever…”
I disagree with this and I’ll tell you why.
I’ve known a lot of Linux users over the years and they’ve all been fairly constant in what distribution they use, the only time they switch distributions is when they really don’t like they one they’re familiar with any more or when that one distribution dies off as is currently predicted of Libranet now.
For years the Red Hat users have been Red Hat users, the Slackware users have remained the Slackware users, and so on with every distribution I can think of including Debian, Mandriva, SUSE, and Libranet.
Now the SUSE and Libranet users are considering new distributions, they’ve used those for years but now SUSE is being fickle towards KDE and Libranet lost a key member and cannot continue in its present state. These are valid reasons to drop a distribution, but they don’t come around very often.
The only other time I can think of when people switch distribution is during a new release cycle, especially if two distributions overlap and Mandriva is releasing a new release at the same time as Ubuntu some of the (K)Ubuntu users will try Mandriva and vice versa. Sometimes this results in people switching distributions, but not in really large numbers.
The users bases are stable enough in my opinion, I’ve gone through a few distributions myself and the only ones I’ve really liked were Mandiva, Kubuntu and Ark. Now if I were choosing a distribution to use stabily on any of my computers it would probably be Kubuntu despite my first starting out with Mandriva That is because Mandriva does include KDE, but defaults to Gnome apps for tasks such as playing video which imo is annoying since KDE and Qt applications fit much better into KDE than Gnome and GTK applications do.
If a distribution makes customer oriented decisions instead of taking the path of least resistance to the next release then it isn’t hard to keep and grow a user base. Most of the Linux users I know have used the same distributions for years and have only switched if the ones they used to like made a decision they hated, or died.
“I, if in their position, would try to push for preinstallation deals with hardware manufacturers”
I dream of the day I can walk into any local computer store and pick up a computer with one of my favourite distributions preinstalled. But since I preffer putting together my own computers I also dream of the day I can walk into any local computer store and buy a copy of my favourite distribution off the shelf. Sure I can download them for free, but I like having the CD and CD case in my hands. I want a tangible product that looks nice since it gives me more peace of mind than an ugly burnt CD with a cheap homemade label that keeps many slim CD/DVD drives from being able to read the disk for some reason.
Just so you know I’m not saying your observations are wrong, I’m just providing my observations as well to show the other side of the coin so to speak.
I’m no longer a Mandrake/riva user and haven’t been for several years but do hope they can achieve a high level of success. Competition is good for end users, and having the option to choose from multiple distributions is something that most Linux users seem to enjoy.
So, I say “good luck” to the entire Mandriva team, and to it’s end users!
Someone on the Nautilus mailinglist said that Nautilus has replaced Konqueror in Mandriva’s KDE.
“I wish to use Nautilus instead of Konqueror because it is more stable (also
Mandriva now uses Nautilus by default in KDE)”
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2005-December/msg00038…
Someone on the Nautilus mailinglist said that Nautilus has replaced Konqueror in Mandriva’s KDE.
It doesn’t say that at all, and let’s face it, it would be a pretty bone-headed thing to do.
No, it’s not true. What happened was that for a few days in Cooker, Nautilus would open when you plugged in a hot pluggable storage device. This was because until recently we used gnome-volume-manager to handle hotplugging on both KDE and GNOME (since KDE didn’t have a volume manager till 3.5), and a gnome-volume-manager update added this “feature” which consequently occurred in both desktops. It never happened in a stable release, because we only shipped an older g-v-m which doesn’t have this feature, and it no longer happens in Cooker because KDE has been bumped to 3.5 which has its own volume manager and consequently g-v-m isn’t used on KDE any more.
now that mandriva is using a decent file manager as the default, i may be tempted to use mandriva.
it is not true.
As a long time Mandrake/Mandriva user, I can say that it is a fine desktop for the SOHO. I even wrote an article for The Linux Journal several years back touting this very thing. But Mandriva seems to undercut its profit by allowing holes in their profit model.
I know of several third party businesses that are members of the Mandriva club. They download the PowerPack version (which is covered by the GPL) and resell it for a fraction of the price–thus undercutting the potential profit of Mandriva on their box sales and club membership.
I no can no longer justify buying a boxed set of Mandriva CDs when I never use the manuals. And the “official” CDs–while nice–aren’t necessary when I can download and burn the iso images myself.
Another area where Mandriva is losing is its Mandriva Club.
While the idea is nice and allows users the opportunity to support Mandriva, I believe Mandriva to be in the wrong by dictating how much you are going to pay.
They hit you hot and heavy with “warnings” that if you want to see Mandriva continue then you must support it. And I agree. But to then set the price at which you support them is where they lose a lot of poeple.
They should allow folks to donate through their store in an amount they can afford and are comfortable with. Mandriva would capture some profits that way that they would otherwise never get.
As long as third parties sell their products at a steep discount by downloading from a club membersip and reselling the CDs, Mandriva will continue to lose money in this arena.
The only plan they seem to have of growing larger is through acquisitions–and yes, there are more in the works. The CEO said so himself in a recent article.
So Mandriva has its work cut out for them. They either differentiate or die.
Even though I have been a Mandrake/Mandriva user for the past 3.5 years, I am serioudly considering a switch to Debian or (K)Ubuntu.
We take action against people reselling the Powerpack without authorization whenever we come across anyone who does this.
hello Adam
bubar
download the powerpack and resell it ????
very stupid thing !!!!
why ?
1. “powerpack” is freely available.
2. “powerpack club version” comes with some proprietaries appz such as drivers or flash plugins, so they can t copy them legally
3. Mandriva have a “partner program” and very instersting thing : everyone could become a official reseller (with better benefits thands poor cd copies)
so, if you know some guys who do that, invite them to discover the partner program !!! or they are really stupid !
bub.
download the powerpack and resell it ????
very stupid thing !!!!
why ?
1. “powerpack” is freely available.
2. “powerpack club version” comes with some proprietaries appz such as drivers or flash plugins, so they can t copy them legally
3. Mandriva have a “partner program” and very instersting thing : everyone could become a official reseller (with better benefits thands poor cd copies)
so, if you know some guys who do that, invite them to discover the partner program !!! or they are really stupid !
bub.
You seem to misunderstand my premise.
Why would someone join the Club to get those benefits when they are available for free elsewhere?
This situation removes any incentive to join the club. Other than to be benevolent to Mandriva.
Or to make it simpler for you: if the only way Mandriva has to make money from retail channels is through the sale of boxed sets or the Club, then they will eventually fail.
There’s too much that is available for free to make this a sustainable model.
Again, Mandriva must differentiate its offering as it cannot compete sucessfully without doing so.
“Why would someone join the Club to get those benefits when they are available for free elsewhere?”
The same reason people buy software even though they could pirate it – they choose not to break the law? Just a wild guess.
They’re not breaking the law because the downloads are covered by the GPL. Again, my question remains the same…
No, they aren’t. The Powerpack contains commercial software that cannot be legally redistributed. The only Mandriva release that you can legally redistribute without licensing it is Free.
Speaking as someone who prefers KDE and Konqueror and all that, I’m kind of confused as to why people seem to think selling to businesses means ditching KDE and going with Gnome. Is it because of Novell and Red Hat relying on Gnome? I don’t really see why KDE couldn’t be used in a business environment. I’m sure there’s a way to lock the configuration and all that…
Speaking as someone who prefers KDE and Konqueror and all that, I’m kind of confused as to why people seem to think selling to businesses means ditching KDE and going with Gnome. Is it because of Novell and Red Hat relying on Gnome?
Because they’re stupid. They’ve had it drilled into their heads by various luminaries that Gnome somehow equals a Linux corporate desktop (when there is actually no such thing and never has been) and they then regurgitate it on sites and forums like this one.
Because there are factor that GNOME has that KDE hasn’t yet,
1.- LGPL license, this is a plus.
2.- Usability guidelines, something that KDE won’t have luckily till KDE 4
And there are more.
Nothing stop any Linux companie from using KDE, Mandriva may be the exception who knows, maybe they will succed or maybe they won’t, till now thay haven’t speaked is they are going to support 1,2,3.. or more DEs whatever they desition may be they will take it thinking that is the best for their bussiness model, and they cannot be judged for it.
Because there are factor that GNOME has that KDE hasn’t yet,
1.- LGPL license, this is a plus.
2.- Usability guidelines, something that KDE won’t have luckily till KDE 4
And there are more.
Sure there are, and they’re all theoretical until Gnome actually starts appearing on corporate desktops. Until then, KDE is the DE of choice for commercial desktops that people pay for and expect support, not just download for free. That’s commercial relevance. Try telling Europe they have to ditch their already-deployed KDE desktops and start using Gnome now, and watch what happens. How fast did Utah-based Novell retreat on that decision?
But really, the whole thing is moot and the arguments are pointless. KDE and Gnome are designed under different philosophies, there will never be a middle ground and because of that people will always prefer one over the other, it doesn’t make one better than the other except for that individual. Every distro with any hope of commercial legitimacy will support both, even if one is preferred over the other. Both DE’s are entrenched in linux, and neither is going to disappear anytime soon.
Besides, both sides have seen the light for some time now and are taking more and more steps to ensure interoperability through things like freedesktop, that is the most important thing for all concerned.
Choice. Choice. Choice.
thanks at all ! it is pleasure to read intelligent and non-offensive comments about a distro.
my little opinion is : not head-to-head with redhat, for now. I hope future is hands-in-hands with redhat.
Mandrake is now a the non-back point. And not have decided, i think, about one choice or other, because they listen their customers. May have G-nome dekstop for server (but what about X on server ?? personnal view) and some special place in enterprise. And kde desktop for salary-men, secreataries and.. end users.
i think mandriva provides a great distribution for now ! test the powerpack 2006 on every laptop (especially intel centrino ! or high end ibm)
Mandriva have, too, a great network (!!)
And i suppose the future is not one-integrated solution for all, but on demand solutions : especially in enterprise environnement.
“what colors and features on desktop for your secretary, sir ?”
Because there are factor that GNOME has that KDE hasn’t yet,
Actually that’s just nonsens, specially when the two factors you mention means absolute nothing(LGPL) and nearly nothing(HIG) in a corporate deployment. And you forget to even consider the one thing KDE has that are immensely more important and making it better suited for corporate deployment, it’s mature and tested lock-down possibilities. More comonly known as the Kiosk framework.
Edited 2005-12-12 01:38
And you forget to even consider the one thing KDE has that are immensely more important and making it better suited for corporate deployment, it’s mature and tested lock-down possibilities.
Although I’m sure that the Kiosk framework is nice, it’s not a feature that’s unique to KDE. Gnome does the same thing through GConf.
The Globetrotter is an interesting idea, but once again Mandriva is hedging their bets that there will be a demand for KDE and Gnome.
We’ve seen all of this vapid speculation about 10% by 2010 before – but it was done 6 years ago for right now. Mandriva just doesn’t have the money to invest in heavy development of what its going to take in order for them to make money off of desktop linux.
There’s just no money to be made on desktop linux. Redhat and Novell have realized this. Mandriva will realize it too eventually. There’s just not enough ROI in development. Five years from now, we’ll be talking about post Vista and Apple’s operating system will be several generations along. The bottom line is that Mandriva does not have the resources to break away from Gnome and KDE and do something that will actually have an impact.
First, Mandriva the distro simply fantastic – great installer, great GUI config tools, great package management, equal support of KDE and Gnome, good stability and speed, great look and feel, great polish and attention to detail, great integration, and a just a damn fine overall Linux experience, both as a desktop and as a server. Mandriva is currently my distro of choice, after trying many, many distros.
Second, Mandriva is going in the right direction for their business. First, they emerged out of bankruptcy to become profitable. Then they grew through acquistion. And they are starting to get the government and business contracts that provide steady revenue streams (using Red Hat’s business model).
I expect great things from Mandriva.
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Nokia 6101 110$
Nokia 6822 110$
Nokia 7710 110$
Nokia 6170 145$
Nokia 6260 145$
Nokia 3510i 95$
Nokia 6630 120$
Nokia 9300 110$
Nokia 7260 120$
Nokia 7270 110$
Nokia 7280 120$
Nokia 6670 110$
Nokia 6020 120$
Nokia 3220 65$
Nokia N-GAGE QD 75$
Nokia 7610 120$
Nokia 9500 145$
Nokia 5140 85$
Nokia 6610i 120$
Nokia 7200 133$
Nokia 6230 145$
Nokia 6820 120$
Nokia 7600 105$
Nokia 6600 120$
Nokia 6800 105$
Nokia 6220 120$
Nokia 6620 120$
Nokia 7250i 65$
Nokia 8910i 120$
Nokia 6100 95$
sidekick 1 $110
sidekick 2 $100
SAMSUNG D600 175$
SAMSUNG P860 175$
SAMSUNG P850 145$
ipods
Apple iPod from hp 40GB = USD$150
Apple iPod from HP 20GB = USD$120
Apple iPod U2 Special Edition 20GB
= USD$130 HP Apple iPod / 40GB /
Click Wheel / MP3 Player = USD$170
Apple iPod MP3 Player, 20gb =
USD$115 Apple iPod Shuffle1GB MP3
Player = USD$85 Apple iPod for
Windows – Digital player – 10GB
Hard Drive = USD$130 Apple iPod
40GB 3rd Gen M9245LL/A A1040 =
USD$140 Hewlett Packard Apple iPod
from HP 20GB With Click aWheel =
USD$95 Apple Ipod 20GB 4th
Generation = USD$130 APPLE iPod
mini Player 4G Light Blue Model
M9802ZP/A = USD$93 Kingston Apple
iPod from hp 40GB with Click Wheel
= USD$140 iPod Mini 6GB = USD$145
iPod 60GB = USD$170 iPod Mini 4GB =
USD$105 Apple iPod shuffle (512 MB
– M9724LL/A) MP3 Player = USD$80
Apple iPod mini Green Second Gen.
(4 GB – M9806LL/A) MP3 Player =
USD$110